Want more intimacy in your relationships? Conflict could help

Conflict is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it’s necessary for close, authentic relationships, says Priya Parker, a conflict resolution facilitator and the author of a new book, The Art of Fighting. But sometimes it can be hard to know if it's worth getting in the weeds with someone. In this episode of Life Kit, Parker shares questions to ask yourself before you bring up an issue, how to handle different conflict styles and why it's a good idea to schedule time to fight. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include sponsor-free listening and convenient playlists of popular help topics like personal finance, getting healthy, and more. Learn more at plus.npr.org http://plus.npr.org/. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This week on Up First, the midterms, less than 15 days away. President Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance, and former President Obama, all crisscrossing the country, rallying voters in key races from Michigan to Georgia to North Carolina. Join us every morning as we guide you through the home stretch of this election season, Up First, on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:24Marielle Segarra?

  So I went swimming this weekend for the first time in, I want to say it was 15 or 20 years.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 0:32Marielle Segarra?

  And for a lot of reasons, I think I never really liked pools. I don't like the smell of them. They kind of gross me out. But I've been thinking about parenthood, actually. And I've been thinking, I need to know how to swim if I'm going to have a kid. So finally, I went to the pool this weekend. And I was so much better than I thought I would be. It reminded me that I can do things that are hard and like I can learn skills.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  And then to also treat swimming not as an identity, but as a skill.

• 1:06Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Right? It's like in Spanish, there's like ser versus a star. Ser is like a permanent state and a star is a condition. And like, in a way, you move swimming from a ser, like, I'm not a swimmer.

• 1:17Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  To like, and a star, which is like, I am practicing learning to swim.

• 1:20Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I am swimming right now.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  You're verbing, not nounding.

• 1:24Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah. Hey, it's Marielle Segarra. You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. And that was author and conflict resolution facilitator, Priya Parker. She has a new book called The Art of Fighting. And she talks about why we need to be able to fight with the people we care about. And I promise, this connects back to the swimming thing.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  And I've learned, just like you swimming, I've learned that conflict is a skill.

• 1:49Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  And I know this because I grew up hating conflict. I am conflict averse. Everyone in my family is conflict averse. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator who is conflict averse. And I think one of the reasons those of us who are relatively effective is because we have such deep empathy for the people who want to flee.

• 2:11Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Right, in the room. And by the way, like swimming, conflict is actually super physical, not in the way we think. All conflict is physical, but within ourselves.

• 2:20Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  So when like, the heat rises, right? When people start, when you start experiencing potential isolation or fear or, you know, separation, we have physical symptoms. Our hands get sweaty, our heart starts to palpitate, our mouth gets dry. And so some of the skills for holding conflict and holding conflict with those we care about is actually just learning that those things happen and learning how to manage some of the physical signals that our body is sending us to, you know, to flee.

• 2:51Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, that bit of discomfort, it can feel like, that means this is wrong. That means I shouldn't be doing this.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. We assume if heat is rising and we are getting these warning signals, that this must be bad. But actually, the reframe is, oh, there's something relevant here. I should pay attention.

• 3:13Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway one, conflict is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, Priya argues, it's necessary if we want to be in close, authentic relationships. So when you have a moment of misalignment with someone, try thinking of it as a signal. There's something here to talk about. Now, Priya's first book was called The Art of Gathering. And we've had her on the show a lot to talk about community and gatherings and friendship. So I told her, the last thing I want to do at a gathering is fight. It's just that my inclination, when I gather with people, is that if people are fighting, this thing has gone off the rails.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  And that may be true. And this is a, this is not saying that fighting is on the rails. I am interested in group life. I'm interested in what allows us, despite all of the obstacles in modern life, despite having different schedules and different beliefs and all of these things, how can we still meaningfully connect? And gathering is one tool to help us get better at group life. And conflict is another tool to help us get better at group life. And in my 20 years as a conflict resolution facilitator, I've learned that healthy communities need love, but healthy communities also need heat.

• 4:32Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, you say specifically that healthy community needs healthy conflict. What is healthy conflict as opposed to unhealthy conflict?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  When trouble rises, we often oscillate between these two stances, which is kind of avoidance, pretending like, nothing is here, folks, and escalation, kind of burning the house down. There's a place between what I call unhealthy peace and unhealthy conflict, which is healthy heat or healthy conflict. And I think of that space as a place where a group or a group of people are able to hold tension with care, long enough to be generative or clarifying.

• 5:14Marielle Segarra?

  Hmm.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  And so when we don't know how to fight well, we end up either saying nothing at all, and then it implodes, or exiting. And so learning how to be what I call an artful fighter is actually an investment in community.

• 5:33Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway two, healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships. It can help you figure out your priorities as individuals, as a group, and move forward together, or not. Now, how do we have those conversations? We'll talk about that after the break.

• 5:54Speaker 03

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• 5:58Speaker 04

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• 6:22Speaker 05

  This election season, let the NPR Politics podcast save your time and your sanity. We'll help you understand key races, which polls you can safely ignore, and what might happen if power shifts in Congress. Our short daily episodes come out every afternoon, so you can spend less time scrolling through each chaotic news cycle. Make NPR Politics your hub for midterm election coverage. Follow our podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 6:46Speaker 06

  Hi there, I'm Brittany Luce. And not to brag, but I host a really fabulous podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute. I love making it, and I think you'll love listening to it. Over the last year, hundreds of thousands of listeners have been tuning in. And I got to say, if you haven't yet, you're missing out. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.

• 7:11Marielle Segarra?

  I understand that conflict is a part of life, but often I find myself asking, is it worth it with this person? When do you get into it? And when do you just pull back or walk away without confronting? Priya lays out some questions we can ask ourselves in the book.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Can I continue to engage meaningfully without facing? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have longing for this group or friendship or relationship? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? Knowing conflict arises in every group and relationship, are these the people I want to be in a mess with? Do I think that by saying something, I could alter the situation?

• 7:54Marielle Segarra?

  Because sometimes we're in situations where we have tried, like, we have had conversations before.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:01Marielle Segarra?

  Or, like you said, like, we don't really have the power, or we've known somebody for a very long time and we've seen how they behave.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:09Marielle Segarra?

  And we're like...

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

• 8:11Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  That's just who they are. And I have a section in there called Seven Reasons Not to Face. And one of them is, it's, it's not a rift, it's a revelation.

• 8:20Marielle Segarra?

  Hmm.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Right? So it's like, when people show you who they are, believe them. It's sort of that old quote. And so much of what I'm trying to invite the reader to do is to actually just become curious and to build what I call the skills of group intelligence, which is to become curious and say, what's actually happening here? Why is this happening? And in modern life, our bounty and our tragedy is that we get to choose who we want to belong to. We get to choose the groups we're in. And so one of the reasons I say it's a tragedy is it's also a lot of labor. It's a lot of work.

• 8:54Marielle Segarra?

  And along with all of that, it's so easy to walk away from...

• 8:59Speaker 02

  It is so.

• 9:00Marielle Segarra?

  A group or a friend.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  It's never been easier to exit. But over the long term, you keep exiting, right? You're going to end up pretty alone.

• 9:09Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, choose your battles. Before you really get into it with someone, air your grievances, try to work towards a solution, do ask yourself questions like, how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this? And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation? At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid. When we have decided that someone or some group is worth fighting with, I mean, where do we begin?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Great question. So mentor of mine, Rhonda Slim, she would say to us, 90% of the success of the room, of the gathering, of the fight, happens before anyone enters.

• 9:55Marielle Segarra?

  I mean, I fight people in my head all the time.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And so part of it is preparing ourselves. Part of us is preparing the other person or the group. And part of us is preparing the room. And so if a group that you're part of, or a team, or an association, or a family member, or a wedding, something happens in a group, and, and there's, you know, there's a conflict or there's a reckoning, the first thing to do is to get curious. And it's just actually ask, what is the need here? What is this actually about underneath? And be curious and humble about where that might reach you. So one of the problems is so many of us are actually, we often don't have the right fight.

• 10:42Marielle Segarra?

  Hmm.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Or we're having the wrong conversation. And so I'll give a simple example, a friend of mine, maybe a former friend of mine, I'm not going to label it, a person I was very close to.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  She was somebody who we'd text, we'd joke, sometimes we'd have virtual like tees or call, you know, we just like made an effort. And one day, basically, it just kind of went cold turkey. And then I basically didn't hear much from her for like six months. And I kind of like, first I was like really mad, then I was really hurt, then I was confused. You know, you go through this whole cycle.

• 11:22Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  And then I was like mourning the death of my friendship. By the way, all in my own head, but still like real feelings, real emotions.

• 11:30Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  And then one day I, I get a text from her, like a chirpy text, and it was like, hey, it's been a while, can we catch up?

• 11:38Marielle Segarra?

  You're like, what, where you been?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  So part of the art of fighting is finding a way to expand our range of options. In that moment, do I pretend nothing happened? Right? Do I let her lead? Do I say I'm really mad? What do I say? It's actually, there's actually an infinite number of possibilities if we pause. So first of all, I feel my own feelings.

• 12:00Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  So then I said, okay, Priya, what's the need here? I can't remember, she said, catch up or debrief? Like, I don't need a debrief? Like, this is insulting. It's also like corporate speak.

• 12:10Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  My need wasn't to like catch up about our lives over the last six months. That I, she didn't, in my mind, I was like, she didn't get access to that.

• 12:17Marielle Segarra?

  It's kind of like when a, an old boyfriend or lover comes back into your life with a you up text.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  These aren't our agreements.

• 12:31Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  And so I pause and I text it back something like,

• 12:36Speaker 02

  I don't know about you, but I felt a lot of, like a huge loss in our friendship and a huge change over the last six months. I'm not sure a catch up or a debrief is what we need. I'd, I'd be more interested or up for a clearing. You know, three dots, three dots, three dots. You know, she's responding.

• 12:57Marielle Segarra?

  Were you like sweating while she was?

• 12:59Speaker 02

  I am, I'm sweating, my heart's palpitating, you know? I'm also mad, I also love her, you know, I'm like, ahh! And, um, all the feelings. And then she writes back something like, thanks for the good language. Like, that's right, I think a clearing is much better language. I've also experienced a big change. I'd be up for a clearing.

• 13:18Marielle Segarra?

  Okay.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  And so what I did in that, in that text exchange, what I was trying to do was ask, is this worth facing? Do I care about this enough to be honest about it? But the second thing is I was trying to set up the right fight. So in my language, I was saying a clearing versus a debrief to try, so that we wouldn't be like coming on the phone or however we chose to do it and be having two totally different conversations.

• 13:41Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  And so part of what I'm doing is I'm trying to like right the ship so that when we get, when we're deciding to come together, it's nervous for both of us. Like neither one of us had, had this conversation. Who wants to fight? Who wants to go through this? We're actually both agreeing. It's almost like setting the terms. I mean, it's all informal. And so, once we actually got on the phone, we both knew what we were getting on for.

• 14:02Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, how did the clearing go?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Uh, it went well. As a clearing, it was a very, I think, for me, helpful, effective, cathartic conversation to hear where she was coming from, and then I got to share where I was coming from. I think like so many of these clearings or conversations, like it doesn't always mean that you come back together again. The whole thing became a loosening of the friendship.

• 14:27Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway four, before a fight, think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need in this moment. Do you need to repair old misunderstandings and hurts? Do you need to understand why a person behaved the way they did? Do both of you need to state explicitly how you disagree on an issue and feel heard? You want to set the foundation ahead of time so the other person knows what to expect and you end up having the right conversation. After the break, we talk about being direct and scheduling time to fight.

• 15:04Speaker 03

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• 15:39Speaker 03

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• 15:56Marielle Segarra?

  You know, I was thinking about this. I would call myself a direct person, meaning that I'm just likely to mention things that are on my mind or say when I felt that an interaction was weird, try to get to the bottom of it. And sometimes that's well received and sometimes it is not.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:19Marielle Segarra?

  So I wonder how we can communicate across this divide if one person is more direct and one person isn't.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  I read a wonderful article by Raina Cohen in The Atlantic years ago, and she looked at this question, but from the perspective of basically, uh, couples who are married to each other, where one is, would call themselves direct.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  And the other one like wants to flee, right? Is sort of indirect. And one of the things that she found was that the couples in which they had totally different conflict styles, because at some level, what you're also talking about is directness versus indirectness is also, it's culturally relevant, right? It's also related to age, it's related to gender, it's related to workplace norms, it's related to all sorts of things. So one of the things that she found within couples who, one of them, you know, wanted to be direct and just get it out with all the time, and the other one like never wanted to have any conversation, ever, was they scheduled their fights.

• 17:18Marielle Segarra?

  Huh.

• 17:20Marielle Segarra?

  That's sweet.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And they described it as the same way as you go to a dentist for dental hygiene, you don't wait till you go to cavity, you know, every six months. It's sort of marriage hygiene. And though it might sound literally like getting, you know, your tooth taken out, it de-escalates it for the people who feel, who fear conflict. They just know like, oh, this is just what we do. Like, he's not divorcing me. We're just having one of our, you know, scheduled meetings. And then for the person who, you know, feels like they, they, they really want to get stuff off their chest all the time, it allows them to have a container where they're not deeply frustrated. Because right, if you want to have a fight and something, your person's like not wanting to, then it adds a second layer, which is like, we can't even talk about the things that are important.

• 18:01Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  And so I, even though that's about a couple, part of why the art of fighting is actually about groups and looking at the context of a community is because I think in modern life, we actually need to create our own subcultures.

• 18:17Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Friends do this, right? Inside jokes are shorthand for culture, right? The ways you hang out, the things you call yourself are shorthand for culture. And so in these longer term friendships, relationships, family life, it's actually, over time, finding ways, I'm almost like agreements of like, can we have this conversation?

• 18:36Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway five, people have different levels of comfort with confrontation or even mild disagreement. Some of us are more direct, some of us hold things in for longer. One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Another way to put that is schedule time to check in on what's going well and what's going less well, where you could support each other better, or basically what grievances you have with each other. Then it becomes a practice and it gives everybody an opening to share. By the way, not every fight has to be a big deal. When somebody did something that rubbed you the wrong way, it is possible in a healthy scenario for you to tell them and them to say, I'm sorry, and you both to just move on. It's like when you step on somebody's foot, right?

• 19:18Marielle Segarra?

  They say ouch, and you say, I'm so sorry, I didn't see you there. And that's that.

• 19:26Marielle Segarra?

  You know, I wonder if when we feel the impulse to fight with someone or we feel that a fight is needed, does that always mean that they did something wrong?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  I can say from my experience as a facilitator, not necessarily. I introduce this term, a meter check. And so a meter check is to actually go in and check to see if there's still actually electricity in the lamp. And so if somebody has done something to you and you're not totally sure if I need to go and fight about it, like get a meter check, meaning ask someone else who you respect, who you love, not in a gossipy way, to be like, hey, let this happen. What do you think?

• 20:03Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah. I guess what I'm thinking is that I like the idea of creating a space where two people can think different things, be in the world differently, have different levels of sensitivity to something, and neither one of them is like a bad person.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. A wonderful book on this is called "Siblings Without Rivalry." And in the prologue of this book, the authors write something like, "Your job is not to make your children best friends. Your job is to help teach them how to build a bridge between the islands of their different identities." So that even after they leave your home, your house, they know at any point in their life, they always know like the path to each other. And that's, to me, that's all relationships. And in some cases, I may alter you because of what I said, and you may think of something totally different. And in other cases, we may agree to disagree. And then we have to decide, can we still,

• 21:05Speaker 02

  you know, be in this friendship or be in this relationship? Like closeness is a spectrum. It's not either we're friends or we're not friends, right? A friend of mine has a mentor who always tells her, "You can be in relationship with anyone at the right distance, and it's your job to figure out what the distance is for that person." So it's not saying everyone's your best friend or everyone's your enemy, right? It's also, this is, again, fortunately or unfortunately, these are skills that will help us in modern life.

• 21:31Marielle Segarra?

  Priya, thank you so much.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 21:35Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, y'all, time for a recap. Takeaway one, conflict, not necessarily a bad thing. Priya argues it's actually necessary if we want to be in close and authentic relationships. When you have a moment of misalignment with someone, think of it as a signal. There's something here to talk about. Takeaway two, healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships. Takeaway three, choose your battles. Before you really get into it with someone, ask yourself questions like, how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this? And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation? At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid.

• 22:19Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway four, before a fight, think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need at this moment. You want to set the table ahead of time so the other person knows what to expect, and you end up having the right conversation. And takeaway five, people have different levels of comfort with confrontation. Some of us are more direct, some of us hold things in. One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Also, remember, just because you're upset with someone or they're upset with you doesn't mean that one of you is a bad person or even that one of you did something wrong. Sometimes that's the case, but sometimes you're just two different people with different ways of being in the world. And you get to decide how close you want to be. That's our show.

• 23:03Marielle Segarra?

  If Life Kit is a part of your weekly ritual, why not make it official on the NPR app? You'll hear about every episode the moment it's ready. Just turn on notifications and we'll handle the rest. See you there. Download the NPR app today. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Kayla Latimore. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib, and our visuals editor is CJ Riekealan. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagel, Margaret Serino, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Peter Elina. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 23:48Speaker 03

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