Pod Insights Life Kit Plus How to repair after a fight with your partner About this episode After a big blowup or recurring fight with your partner or spouse, how do you reconnect? Couples therapist Baya Voce offers a five-step process for couples to make amends after conflict, including what to do if you're still upset and how to make sure both of you get a chance to say what you feel and need. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekitSign up for our newsletter here. Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekitLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
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0:25 Marielle Segarra? Hey, it's Marielle. When it comes to romantic relationships, we tend to place a lot of emphasis on falling in love. But we overlook what it takes to stay there. Sure, it's lovely to watch Cinderella and Prince Charming ride off into the sunset. But then after the honeymoon, Cinderella keeps leaving those glass slippers hanging around where anybody can trip over them. And the prince doesn't seem so charming when he can't seem to show up on time.
0:51 Speaker 02 Rupture, conflict, it's going to happen in relationships, no matter what. We cannot avoid it.
0:57 Marielle Segarra? Bea Voeche is a couples counselor based in Austin, Texas. She finds that a lot of couples need help with what comes after the fight. The repair.
1:06 Speaker 02 And I think we're really missing it. I think this is actually the thing that helps us grow up together. Repair, to me, is the single most important ingredient in what actually develops into healthy, long-term, secure-functioning relationships.
1:22 Marielle Segarra? Repair in relationships is the process of mending a tear after a conflict in a way that supports whoever was hurt and ultimately brings y'all back together.
1:31 Speaker 02 Repair might look like physical touch, and that's all you need. For me, repair, I might actually need redemption. I might need you to own a piece of what happened, and then I might really need to see behavior change. Some people, seeing behavior change isn't actually as important as the apology upfront. So repair can look really different for many people.
1:57 Marielle Segarra? But there are some basic steps we can share. On this episode of Life Kit, reporter Andy Tagle talks to Bea about her five-step process of repair for couples, including what to do right after the conflict when you're feeling steamed, how to wait your turn when you're talking to your partner, and how these conversations should feel a bit like providing or receiving excellent customer service.
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3:42 Speaker 05 I want to talk about the everyday type of relationship pain. So, maybe my husband and I went out to dinner with friends and he said something that really embarrassed me, something he knows that I wouldn't want him to share. Where would the repair process start?
3:54 Speaker 02 The first step that I think about is what I call do nothing. Now, doing nothing is actually quite an active process, but what I mean by this is do nothing with your partner. So, maybe you just blew up at them. Maybe you just walled off, you stonewalled, you distanced, you closed your heart. Maybe you did something in between. At this point, you're starting to notice like, ah, I'm in it again. I'm in the pattern, which is going to take practice anyway to start to be like, oh, I'm out of what I call my window of tolerance. It could be many cues. It could be... My heart starts to race. I start to sweat. It could be that I start to, in my head, make you my enemy.
4:34 Speaker 02 It could start to be that I literally cannot hear what's coming out of your mouth. Like, everything has gone blank. So it could be a number of things. It's gonna be different for all of us. But it's pretty predictable what ends up coming up here. When you start to notice, oh, I'm in that predictable pattern where I'm outside of my window of tolerance. I start to understand, okay, this is my cue to do nothing. What do I mean by this? I mean, you phone a friend, you talk to your therapist, you go on a walk, you take a bath. You're regulating yourself. You're getting yourself back into your window of tolerance as much as possible.
5:13 Speaker 02 Basically, the idea at do nothing is you don't come back into connection with your partner until you're ready to see someone else's perspective.
5:26 Speaker 05 Takeaway one. Do nothing about a rupture with your partner until you're level-headed enough to actually have a conversation with them about it. Not just restart your fight or bring up the leftover arguments still bouncing around your head. Bea says, you don't have to be totally calm, but you wanna be at least a five out of 10, with one being your most zen and 10 being steam coming out of your ears. And doing nothing is actually a really active process. You wanna seek out the most effective ways to regulate your system. So blast that favorite playlist and go on a run or reorganize your closet. Then, once you've cooled down,
6:08 Speaker 05 ask if your partner is also ready to come and meet you on the couch.
6:12 Speaker 02 The second step, this is the most important one that most people miss, is one person goes at a time. In this example, it's super obvious who's going first. You're the hurt partner. It's your turn to be repaired with. This is why we get into so much trouble when we're trying to repair, is because oftentimes, both or all people are trying to get their perspective heard in that moment. And so, nobody's actually listening. People are just saying, my perspective, no, my perspective, no, this is what I... And nobody's actually listening. We're just trying to be heard. And by the way, if both of us have been hurt, you'll take turns. That's it. Your partner might say something like, we'll just keep going with this example. Hey, it really hurt my feelings when I saw you talking to our friends and I made up the story
6:57 Speaker 02 that you were being sarcastic because you wanted to put me down. In my head, as the listening partner, I could be like, what are you talking about? I literally might be thinking about, I don't even think I said that. All of those things can still be going on in your head. But the truth is, when you're the listening partner, the idea is that you are at the customer service window of your partner. This is from renowned couples therapist Terry Reel. You don't go to the customer service window and say, hey, I have a broken microwave. Can you fix it? And then the person says, hmm, well, I have a broken toaster. Can you fix this? That's not how it works. You go to the customer service window and say, hey, I have a broken microwave. And the customer service person says, okay, great, let me help you fix that.
7:41 Speaker 02 If both of you are doing it at the same time, it's a total mess. It doesn't work. So this is where one person at a time comes in.
7:50 Speaker 05 Takeaway two, simple in theory, harder in practice. Share your individual version of events one at a time. That's the way you'll actually be able to hear each other. Then takeaway three, when it's your turn, share responsibly. By letting your partner know how their behavior made you feel, not just bombarding them with judgment or criticism.
8:13 Speaker 02 So as the hurt partner, your only job right now is to not be a jerk. You're using I language, you're using soft startup statements. So there's a huge difference between you saying, hey, you said something tonight that really embarrassed me, that was super messed up. I can't believe you said that. Sure, could you say that and could your partner respond kindly? Absolutely. It's just going to take way more work for them to do that. If you say, hey, when we were sitting down earlier and you made this joke. Like, here's what happened to me. All of a sudden, like, I literally felt my body heat up. And immediately, I went into the story. Oh, my God, I can't believe you're saying this to them. How could you say this?
8:56 Speaker 02 Like, I'm literally hearing that story in my head. There's a great line by Terry Real, who I just love the way he puts this, where he says, "There's no space in relationship for objective reality. There are just two subjective experiences. That's it." So I have my experience over here. You have your experience over here. It's probably somewhere in the middle is the truth. But that truth doesn't actually exist. There are two subjective experiences. So the minute that we start fighting the truth, or fighting for the truth, we're in a losing, we're in a losing battle.
9:31 Speaker 05 So just to be clear, language matters, especially when the objective is to reconnect with your partner. So like, from your perspective, sure, it can be as clear as day that your spouse is to blame for that missed flight. But there is a big difference between, "You can never be trusted with the schedule, and I feel like down because you wanted to leave late, and now we've lost a day of vacation."
9:57 Speaker 02 This is another Terryism, which I love. He calls this enlightened self-interest. You're doing this because, you know, a lot of people don't want to own their language when they're hurt, because they're hurt. They want to be able to word vomit and say everything that's on their mind and be able to speak their pain however they feel is appropriate to speak their pain. But then, when their partner can't hold them, now what? Now we're in the same cycle of pain that we've been in over and over and over again. So, once you start to own your language, this is going to make it much easier for your partner, for the listening partner, to do steps four and five.
10:37 Speaker 05 Takeaway four, when it's your turn to listen, do just that. Try to step out of your own experience entirely.
10:45 Speaker 02 How I like to think about this is you take your perspective and you zip it down, almost like you're wearing it as skin. You're like, you're wearing it as clothes, right? So you take your perspective, and then you just put it to the side and it's taking a little nap. Now, this is really important for people, especially for my people who feel like they might please, or override, or fawn. Oftentimes, they feel like their perspective never gets heard. So it's really important for these people to understand that you get your turn, it's just not right now. So your perspective is taking a nap, which allows you to move to step five, which I call be an anthropologist.
11:24 Speaker 05 Okay, and how do you do that?
11:25 Speaker 02 In these kinds of conversations, because your partner's perspective might be completely different than yours, I literally look at this like your partner is an alien. And you're an anthropologist being like, huh, what's it like to be that alien? Like, you're like, oh, like, I would never think that thought, or that would, that thing that I just, that would, that would never hurt me, or I would never react that way. But because this isn't about your perspective, this is literally like studying an alien species, where you're like, huh, you got hurt because I said that thing at dinner? Wait, can you tell me more about that? Like, it is your job to understand this person's hurt.
12:06 Speaker 02 And the way that you do this is by not taking on, not taking full responsibility over here for my partner's experience. It's gonna be really hard for me to actually come over to your side and understand and be impacted and moved by what you're saying, if I feel like I have to agree with you.
12:27 Speaker 05 What should the person who's listening first, is there anything a person, that person should say or do during that time? Any questions that can help open up that deep listening?
12:39 Speaker 02 So if you just start with... Hey, I want to understand more. I don't know if I'm fully getting it, and it's important that I do. Can you tell me more about why it hurt you? Can you tell me more about what I said that really hurt? Can you tell me more about what's making you sad? "Can you tell me more about" is a great sentence stem to open up your partner into their own deeper reflection.
13:06 Speaker 05 Takeaway five: attunement is not the same as agreement. Practicing genuine curiosity, finding real empathy for your partner will give you that space you need to reconnect. Of course, that can be hard to do when you're still angry, or if you've known your partner for a million years. So be an anthropologist. Pretend you just landed on a new planet. You'll also want to be careful in this final step of the difference between attunement and appeasement. Coming up, what to do when repair isn't working? That's after the break.
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14:35 Speaker 05 Bea, what are some signs that this process isn't working?
14:38 Speaker 02 Oftentimes, what happens is two things. The listening partner, at this point, because they're hearing all the things that they did wrong, hopefully, the hurt partner is able to speak it in a way that has eye language. But even if they're able to do that because of our conditioning, or our wounds, or our patterning, well, oftentimes, what this will look like is collapse. So I then collapse into your story. Oh, yeah, you're completely right. I completely agree with everything you're saying. That makes total sense, right? And your experience just kind of washes away. And you don't actually mean what you're saying. You're just trying to keep the peace. So it's not actual repair. It's not actual attunement. It's not actual presence. You're literally just trying to keep the peace right now.
15:22 Speaker 02 So for the people who tend to collapse, they tend to blame inwards. It's my fault. I did something wrong. I can't, I'm a bad person. Versus the other side, which is, you're crazy. How could you think that? That's insane. I would never do that. Whoa, you're way too sensitive. Right? So these are my people who tend to go into grandiosity and blame outward. It's your fault. And if I feel defensive on my end, I'm not going to collapse. I'm going to fight back.
15:51 Speaker 05 Right.
15:52 Speaker 02 And so-
15:52 Speaker 05 Can't say anything around you, like, mm-hmm.
15:54 Speaker 02 That's right. So, so, listen, you could, as the hurt partner, do everything in your power. You could own your language. You could come in a pretty regulated state. And your partner could still respond in a collapsing way, or in a grandiose way. At that point, like, it's time to get support. This is going to be really hard to do on your own. Because this is work on our self-esteem. This is much deeper work that we really do need a support system outside of us to help both of us. When we are trying to hold each other, and it's just too much, it can just cause more pain. I really do think that people often enter into therapy too late because-
16:36 Speaker 02 They think they can do it on their own, and not to say that some of us can't, but there are going to be some wounds and some triggers that are just going to be too hard for a simple five-step process. And the five-step process is going to be way too reductionistic to actually work for what's happening on the deeper levels. And in that case, really seeking support is the best, most nourishing thing you could possibly do for relationships.
17:02 Speaker 05 Okay, and how can you tell if this is less of an us problem and more of a me problem? You know, you got to the end of the repair process and you still feel unsettled. When is it time to maybe seek out help just for yourself?
17:14 Speaker 02 I like to say that if your partner is doing 70% of the heavy lifting and they're getting it like 70% right, they're doing the hard work of attuning and staying present and regulating themselves to be able to stay curious and open with your experience and not need to go into their perspective or their experience in that moment. And still, you cannot come back? That is your work to do. The part of us that is unreparable with, we need to understand the difference of how much our partner can do, which is some for sure, but not all. And if our partner can't get to all of it, there's a piece in us that really needs to be met by ourselves.
17:58 Speaker 02 And the only person that's going to be able to meet that in the way that you really need to be met is you.
18:04 Speaker 05 When do we know repair is complete, man?
18:07 Speaker 02 You know repair is complete when you feel a softening. It's not so cut and dry as your partner says the right things and so now things are repaired. It's feeling met and understood and validated in the way that has your nervous system calm and say, huh, I remember you're my partner. I want to come close to you again, even if slowly. It could look much more like a slow fine out.
18:44 Speaker 02 Of a nervous system that's coming back from holding and keeping itself safe into a nervous system that is open for connection again.
18:54 Speaker 05 This isn't an exact science, of course, but you know when the repair process is complete, right? Maybe it's that warm, fuzzy feeling when you finish talking and your partner makes you feel really seen and heard and understood. Or just the willingness to accept her outstretched hand on the couch or cracking that inside joke after a day of a dead silent apartment. Once you've righted that wrong, learn from it and use it for the inevitable next time you'll need it. Because remember, occasional conflict and tension are healthy and good relationship repair is a muscle.
19:32 Speaker 02 You would never go to the gym once and be like, wow, I nailed it. I don't need to go back again. That would literally never happen. We know that. That's I don't need to teach anybody that. But when we're talking about relational fitness, the skills need to become part of our everyday existence in order for us to get emotionally or relationally fit. It's not just a one and done. You do these steps well, you nail it, you'll never have to do them again. No, these are practices that you do over and over and over again. It takes practice and it takes the ability to stay with the tension long enough for your partner to soften.
20:17 Speaker 05 Beavochi, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
20:19 Speaker 02 Thanks so much for having me.
20:23 Speaker 05 All right, let's recap those five steps to repair after a rupture.
20:28 Speaker 05 Takeaway one, do nothing. That is, don't try to fix it until you're regulated enough to hear out the other side. Until that point, do the things that help bring you down. Takeaway two, share one person's perspective at a time. So you can, you know, actually listen to each other. If one person's upset, that's who goes first. If you're both mad, take turns. Takeaway three, when it's your turn to tell your side of the story, remember it's just that, your side, not objective truth. So use I statements and be thoughtful about what you say. Takeaway four, when it's your turn to listen, put your own thoughts and feelings away as best you can.
21:12 Speaker 05 And then takeaway five, practice deep curiosity to try and truly understand and empathize with your partner's perspective. That doesn't mean you have to agree, but hopefully it will help you get to a point where you can reconnect. And remember, the repair process is complete when you, your partner, are ready to let go of the conflict and turn back towards each other.
21:38 Marielle Segarra? That was reporter Andy Tagel with therapist Bea Voce. Before we go, I have a favor to ask. If you have a second, could you please leave Life Kit a five-star review? If Life Kit has ever helped you save a little money, make a healthier choice, or just made you feel a little more seen, a five-star review is a great way to show your support. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm Mariel Segarra.
22:20 Marielle Segarra? Thanks for listening.
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