How to get 'financially naked' with your partner

How much money do you make? What assets and debts do you have? What are your spending habits? These are all questions you should ask your partner, says Vivian Tu, founder of Your Rich BFF, a financial education company, and the author of Well Endowed https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/wellendowed. In this episode, host Marielle Segarra talks with Tu about how to get “financially naked” with your partner, whether you just started dating or have been together for years. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from iXL, a learning platform for helping kids build confidence and get up to speed fast. One subscription covers math, science, and reading for all children in a household. Receive 20% off at ixl.com/NPR.

• 0:16Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, before we start the show, real quick, what's your favorite thing about Life Kit? Does our show help you save a little money or make better decisions about your health? Does it just make life a little easier? If you love Life Kit, why not take a moment to rate and review us in your podcast app? That helps other people find us. Thanks for listening. You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:44Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. When Vivian, too, first got financially naked in front of her partner, it was out of desperation. She and her roommate had moved into a roach-infested apartment in New York City.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  These roaches were getting into everything. They were in our clothes. They were crawling all over our food. One of them died in our ice tray. Ultimately, we had to pay $8,000 in total, so for her, for me, to break our lease. And that was all of the money that I had saved after a year of working. And I had nothing left.

• 1:16Marielle Segarra?

  So she temporarily moved into her then-boyfriend, now-husband's apartment.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  And I had to sit him down, and I had to be like, I have no money. I am broke. I don't have any debt. This is how much I spend every month. I have nothing. I cannot afford to pay you rent. I don't know what to do. I have to get out of this apartment.

• 1:34Marielle Segarra?

  How long have y'all been seeing each other?

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Oh, 30 days.

• 1:38Marielle Segarra?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  30 days.

• 1:39Marielle Segarra?

  No.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Like, terrible timing.

• 1:42Marielle Segarra?

  At the time, Vivian was working on Wall Street. Now she's a financial educator. And she says, while this was terrible timing...

• 1:49Speaker 02

  It did lead to a very open conversation around our finances. And I think that's something that I really encourage couples to do. Is to ensure that you're having these really brutally honest conversations sooner rather than later.

• 2:04Marielle Segarra?

  She calls that getting financially naked because when you decide to spend your life with someone, you're likely getting naked in every other way: physically, emotionally, spiritually, politically. She says you should be talking that openly about money, too. You need to know the basics about each other's finances.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  What you make, what you have, what you owe, and what you spend.

• 2:26Marielle Segarra?

  And to understand this person's goals are on money, what they value, what they think is worth spending money on.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  It is insane to me that people think love is enough. Love is not. You need to actually know that you can build with this person.

• 2:40Marielle Segarra?

  Now, you don't necessarily have to bear it all after the first date or after 30 days, like Vivian did. You can break this down into steps, using some of the common relationship stages as checkpoints. Vivian walks through those steps in her book, Well Endowed, and she shares them with us on this episode of Life Kit. That's after the break.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  This message comes from Bombas. Whether you're outdoors or just lounging around the house, cool weather calls for cozier footwear. Bombas makes the perfect slippers and shoes, built with smooth, premium suede, plush sherpa, and warm sheepskin shearing, all with layers of cloud-like cushioning. Perfect for staying in, stepping out, and keeping things cozy all season long. Visit B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase. This message comes from Angie. When it comes to home projects, it matters who you hire. Angie has been helping homeowners find skilled pros to get their home projects done well

• 3:51Speaker 03

  for over 30 years. Angie's nationwide network has experts in everything, from landscaping to roofing and more. Read verified reviews, see photos of past work, and request and compare quotes to find your best price, all in one place. Download the free Angie app today or visit Angie dot com. That's A-N-G-I dot com.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  This message comes from Jerry. Many people are overpaying on car insurance. Why? Switching providers can be a pain. Jerry helps make the process painless. Jerry is the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai/npr.

• 4:44Marielle Segarra?

  Do you think that it's advisable to get financially naked while you're actually naked?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  I think this might be a clothing-required conversation at first just because it's a very vulnerable conversation. As fun and silly as it sounds to be able to do this is like pillow talk, I think it's a lot more effective if you're both focused. And I do think money talk scares a lot of couples, and I don't think it should have to. You can start money talk on the very first date. If enough money for your rest of your life fell into your lap tomorrow, what would you do for work? Would you still work? If I gave you $100,000 to plan a perfect two-week vacation, what would that look like? Somebody who wants to go climb Mount Everest and someone who wants to go to the Maldives and lay on a beach for two weeks,

• 5:34Speaker 02

  these are two very different people. I think that having those fun money conversations early on makes it easier to be like, how much do you make? Because we're planning on moving in together. I need to know what the rent can be.

• 5:46Marielle Segarra?

  You've started with the casual dating side, which is like first date, second date, third date, anything actually right before you become maybe exclusive or committed to each other.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:58Marielle Segarra?

  And in that realm, you're thinking mainly kind of fun discussion questions. But also, you say in the book, you can discuss things like, what do you do for a living, obviously? How do you like to spend your time? What are your general career or school plans or goals?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. You want to be able to know what somebody's ambitions are. You want to be able to know what their 10-year plan is. Someone who's like, oh, I'm planning on going to grad school in California when you two currently live in New York. Are you ready to do that? Are you ready to move to California? Someone who says, oh, I would like to become a mogul of some sort in media or in business, you know they're going to be grinding. Are you cool with having less time for the two of you? Getting an understanding of what somebody's happily ever after looks like is very telling.

• 6:51Marielle Segarra?

  All right, takeaway one. You're in the early stages of dating. Exciting. Don't worry about diving too deep on finances here, but ask some basic questions like, what do they do for work? How do they like to spend their time? What are their career goals? You can also ask each other fun questions like, if you had unlimited money to plan a two-week vacation, where would you go? What would it look like? Or if you were handed a million bucks tomorrow, what would you do with it? And this doesn't have to feel like an interrogation. It's just a chance to know each other over time. When you're defining the relationship and you're saying like, we're going to get more serious, and very often that means becoming monogamous exclusive, what might you talk about before that or when you're considering that?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I think there are some things to be said about having a conversation of like, oh, like, what are your dreams for your career? Like, do you want to buy a home? Do you want to live here forever? Are you planning on moving back to your hometown? These are money conversations that'll help guide the trajectory of your relationship just to make sure that you're on the same financial page. I'm not someone who is like, you have to date someone who is really rich. You have to date someone who has no debt. That's not true. But you have to date someone who values a dollar the same way you do. My girlfriend has this phrase, and she's hilarious, that dating is actually short for data.

• 8:14Marielle Segarra?

  Hmm.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  And that is your data collection period. So we are collecting data about this person. How do they spend their money? How do they spend their time? If you know that they are in a job where they don't make that much money, but every single weekend they're out blowing money on designer stuff, one, where is that money coming from? Or two, do they just have like crazy credit card debt?

• 8:35Marielle Segarra?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Both of which you probably need answers to. This data collection period is really when you can be smart and learn something about this person and decide if they're going to fit into your life and are there changes you're willing to make so that you can fit into theirs?

• 8:49Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, and you say in the book, some other things to discuss at this point are... How each of you sees yourself with money? Like, do you see yourself as more of a spender or a saver?

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:00Marielle Segarra?

  Or another way of putting that is like, are you into luxury? Are you more frugal with your money? Like, when is it worth it to spend money? What is your luxury? Right? Versus where do you want to save?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:13Marielle Segarra?

  I like spending money on high-quality food and organic produce, you know? And on travel to a certain extent. But like, I don't need to stay in the most luxury hotel, but I want to be comfortable.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Right. Right. I am 32 now. I have back pain.

• 9:28Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  I cannot stay somewhere that's less nice than my own house.

• 9:31Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  I don't want to go.

• 9:33Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm like, no, it's not worth it. Like, I did the whole staying in hostels and stuff, getting bedbugs in a hostel in Rome.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:41Marielle Segarra?

  When I was 19.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  I've backpacked.

• 9:43Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  I've been there.

• 9:44Marielle Segarra?

  I'm good. And also, you say like, you can do, you can talk about how you're doing with your savings and your debt. Bringing that up, do you think that it helps to kind of say, "Here's my situation," and then let the other person share theirs?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  I think if you go into a conversation and you're like, "Tell me something," it feels like an interrogation versus offering something up. It almost feels like an olive branch. Like, you are offering something. You are bringing something to the table. You are bringing new information. And allow them to reciprocate. In the same way that, you know, relationship counselors teach people in marriages to use "I" statements instead of "you" statements. It's the same thing.

• 10:27Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Instead of being like, "How much debt do you have?" It's easier to be like, "Oh, by the way, I just wanted to let you know, I may be on a little bit of a tighter budget next month because I'm making a large payment to my student loan or on my credit card. I have this much in debt and I'm hoping to have it paid off by XYZ date." Now they know what your financial situation is in that regard. But also, you have a plan. You're going to make it happen. And, you know, it's not going to necessarily negatively impact your relationship together.

• 10:57Marielle Segarra?

  Now, what if you share that and they're like, "Oh, okay, cool." And then they don't say anything about their debt.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  I think at that point, you can then ask, because you've now offered something. You can say, "By the way, do you have any credit card debt?"

• 11:10Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Or even, something even better would be like, "Are there any months coming up that you might be, you know, feeling a little bit more tight financially that we should keep in mind together?"

• 11:19Marielle Segarra?

  Mm-hmm. I can also imagine being like... Things are gonna be a little tight for me because I'm making this debt payment. But I was thinking, this could actually be a good time for us to talk about our finances.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:31Marielle Segarra?

  Would you be open to that, to talking about how much debt each of us has? And what kind of savings we have?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yes, 100%. And I also will say, I get a lot of DMs from people that are like, "I've brought it up and my partner is super, super resistant to talking about money." To me, that would have been a red flag, red flag. Like, I cannot be with this person. Because if we can't talk about money, how are we gonna talk about raising a family?

• 11:58Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  How are we gonna talk about buying a home? How are we gonna be able to talk about buying a new car? How are we gonna talk about any of this stuff?

• 12:03Marielle Segarra?

  And at that point, I'm thinking like, what are you hiding? You know?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 12:09Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway two, you've gone from casual dating to commitment, whatever that means for you. You're spending more time together, sharing a lot of meals and day-to-day activities, maybe planning joint adventures. This is a good moment to get more specific. Do either of you have debt? How much? How do you spend your money? How much do you make? These are questions you'll absolutely want to ask and answer before you move in together.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  I think if you haven't had any money conversations up until this point, this is a really good, like, true-up moment where you can get them all out. Because this is now a point where you can no longer lie. When you go submit your information for a rental application, you actually have to show bank statements. You actually have to show proof of employment. You have to show proof of income. And so it's a really good time to talk about what you make, what you have, so assets, what you owe in terms of debt, and then what your expenses are every single month. That's the four square. It's what you make, what you have, what you owe, and what you spend.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  If you can talk about those four categories before moving in together, you should be in a good spot. And frankly, it'll make other conversations a lot easier.

• 13:21Marielle Segarra?

  Now, what might come up in this conversation that could make someone say, "Uh, halt, I don't want to move in together," or "I don't want to date you anymore"?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  For some people, high levels of credit card debt, that's going to be a burden on your relationship. This is also where you maybe find out that their spending every single month is vastly beyond their means. That's scary. You could find out that they have a family situation where they're being supported by their family, but that means there's puppet strings and caveats associated with everything. Maybe you don't want to be a part of that. Maybe you find out that they make a lot more or a lot less. You know, this is something that you would probably find out more throughout the relationship versus just during the move-in period. But like, if they're really controlling using that money, if you don't have a lot of it, or maybe they make so much less money than you anticipated that you're not necessarily feeling like you need to support their lifestyle, but like, they can't even keep up with yours.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  I think these are all things to consider. For me, I am, you know, very confident in saying that like, money does factor into my ability to see a life with someone.

• 14:27Marielle Segarra?

  I mean, especially marriage as a contract. It is a financial contract.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  It's a legal document.

• 14:34Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, it's a legal document with big financial implications.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  It is insane to me that people think love is enough. Love is not. You need to actually know that you can build, build with this person.

• 14:46Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I like that idea, that what you're trying to do is build with someone. I mean, money is a part of that. Money is a part of building a life.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:56Marielle Segarra?

  We'll have more Life Kit after the break.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Bombas, making shoes as cozy as slippers and slippers as comfy as clouds. Smooth suede, plush sherpa, cloud-like cushioning. Visit B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash NPR for 20% off your first purchase. This message comes from Angie. Angie has been helping homeowners find skilled pros to get their home projects done well for over 30 years. For everything from minor repairs to major remodels, find reviews, pricing, and booking at Angie.com or on the Angie app.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Big news stories don't always break on your schedule, but with the NPR app, news, culture, and podcasts are ready when you want them, in your pocket. Download the NPR app today.

• 15:56Marielle Segarra?

  Vivian, let's talk about marriage. What conversations about money do you need to have when you get engaged?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Well, I think if you're already engaged, you should be having all of those conversations we just discussed. But one thing that I really encourage people to try and avoid is any sort of financial infidelity. And people are like, what does that even mean? Financial infidelity is like when you make purchases and deliberately hide them. Or you have some sort of debt that you are keeping from your partner. Or you are, you know, even like when they show like in like TV dramas or movies or whatever, it's like the wife goes out and she like spends $5,000 on a shopping spree and then like hides the shoes in the closet. I actually think that's a really, really unhealthy thing to portray as normal. We absolutely should not be normalizing lying to our partners. I'm not saying that she shouldn't get to go out

• 16:48Speaker 02

  and buy shoes. I'm saying it shouldn't have to be a secret.

• 16:51Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  We shouldn't be hiding bank accounts. We shouldn't be hiding credit cards. It should all be out on the open and everybody should just be OK with it. And if they're not, that's a conversation you need to have.

• 17:01Marielle Segarra?

  Totally. That says something about the relationship if you can't be honest with each other.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:07Marielle Segarra?

  You have a note in your book about basically, don't become, the suggestion in your book is, don't become financially codependent. And what does that mean? I've thought about this a lot.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  You know, I think one of the scariest things that I get as a creator online is DMs from people saying,

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm in a relationship I don't really want to be in, but I can't afford to leave. Worse is I'm in an abusive relationship and I can't afford to leave.

• 17:40Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  We should have our own money. We should have our money that we share for our shared goals, but you need to have your own money, period. Money gives you power. Money is freedom. Money is options. You need to be able to leave a bad relationship. You need to be able to leave a bad job. You need to be able to leave a bad situation. And without money, you can't do that. So do not ever, ever, ever give your financial power to somebody else because if they can feed you, they can starve you.

• 18:06Marielle Segarra?

  And it's gonna be really hard to remember that when you're just about to get married because it's like, no, they love me.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:15Marielle Segarra?

  You know, and I love them. Like, nothing could go wrong. I mean, this even comes up with prenups. It's like, well, it's, it can be hard to, to tell your partner, I want a prenup. Because it's like, wait, sorry, are you planning to divorce me?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 18:30Marielle Segarra?

  What do you say if your partner does have that reaction when you say you want a prenup?

• 18:35Speaker 02

  A prenup is not, I don't trust you. A prenup is not, we're gonna get divorced. A prenup is, I don't trust the government. A prenup is, I want to sit down with you on a sunny day where we have nothing but love for each other and decide what is fair. Because if you don't, your state and local government gets to decide. And I don't trust them to know my relationship better than me and my partner do. It is so important for you to do it yourself, for you to make those decisions. And also, it allows you to be in charge of your financial future.

• 19:07Marielle Segarra?

  When you are thinking about splitting your money or combining some part of your money, I mean, a lot of people don't even know where to begin with that. Do you create a joint checking account and savings account? Do you keep your own separate ones?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  I like a yours, mine, and ours strategy and getting those numbers out in the open. So yours, mine, and ours is you have your money, I have my money, and then we agree to put in a percentage into a joint account consistently to help fund our expenses together. But also, it means if I find out that like, you are behind on your retirement, let's come up with a strategy so that we can help fix that. That doesn't necessarily mean I just automatically pay more for stuff, but maybe it does mean for a temporary period of time, you are putting more towards that one goal and we are pausing on another goal. What I don't want to have happen is You agree to pay for all of my debt. And then two weeks after the debt's paid for, I'm filing for divorce.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  That leads to a lot of resentment. You are not your partner's savior. Your partner needs to save themselves for you, for your relationship. And that's why I think it's really important to have chosen a partner who has a plan to get to where they want to be versus someone who's helpless. I think there's a difference between dating someone with $10,000 of credit card debt versus dating someone who has $10,000 of credit card and a plan to pay it off.

• 20:34Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three. You've decided to get married. Congratulations. A couple of things to keep in mind. Vivian says you and your partner should not be hiding financial information from each other. If you made a big purchase, you should be able to tell them, even if they don't agree with it or it doesn't match their priorities. If you have debt that you haven't told them about, you need to. Also, think about how you're going to split your money and seriously consider a yours, mine, and ours strategy. Of course, the money conversation shouldn't stop after you get married.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  I think this is constantly just like goal setting. How big do we want our family to be? What's that going to cost? Where would we like to live long term? What does that look like? If you say, oh, I want to have two kids, but then you only end up having one, that changes the calculus. Or say you have a pet, but then all of a sudden that pet has consistent health problems. That also changes the money calculus. Maybe it's, oh, I wanted to retire here, but since my parents are also aging, maybe we consider moving here ahead of their retirement. That changes the calculus. So I think it's just constantly having this conversation. A money conversation is not a one and done. You don't get to do it and just be done with it. It's something that you have to have throughout the course of your life.

• 21:50Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah. And it occurs to me too that Flexibility is an important thing to assess here. When situations change, when you're with your partner, do you find them to be flexible in how they problem solve or rigid? You know, like, well, you said this, so we're doing this.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:09Marielle Segarra?

  Like, if you have an aging parent who has dementia and like you need to be there to help them, are they going to see that as a huge burden and treat you badly because of it? Because it's not their parent?

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 22:21Marielle Segarra?

  Or are they the kind of person who's like, no, your burdens are mine, too. We've agreed to be a we.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  I think at the end of the day, this is just a conversation around, are you a good partner? Is your partner a good partner? And do you make a good pair?

• 22:38Marielle Segarra?

  Vivian, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 22:43Marielle Segarra?

  All right, time for a recap. Takeaway one, in the early stages of dating, don't worry about diving too deep on finances. But do ask basic questions like, what do they do for work? How do they like to spend their time? And what are their career goals? You can also use fun prompts like, if you were handed a million bucks tomorrow, what would you do with it? Takeaway two, you've gone from casual dating to commitment. Now's the time to start sharing things like, do either of you have debt? How much? How do you spend your money? How much money do you make? How much do you each have in savings or investments? Those are questions you'll absolutely want to ask and answer before you move in together. And takeaway three, before you get married, Vivian says you and your partner should not be hiding financial information from each other.

• 23:29Marielle Segarra?

  Also, think about how you're going to split your money and seriously consider a yours, mine, and ours strategy. And keep the conversations going once you tie the knot. Life will throw you curveballs. An unexpected third child. An illness in the family. A huge job opportunity in a new city. These all have financial implications. And hopefully, you've chosen a partner who's able to talk through those things with you.

• 23:56Marielle Segarra?

  This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our digital editor is Malika Garib and our visuals editor is CJ Riekele. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagel, Margaret Serino, Sylvie Douglas, and Mika Ellison. Engineering support comes from Damian Herring. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  This message comes from Mint Mobile. While others have been hiking your bill, Mint Mobile has kept their wireless plans starting at $15 a month. Switch to Mint Mobile and get three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. Go to mintmobile.com/switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. New customer offer, first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  This message comes from HomeServe. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back. Go to homeserve.com/audio for 50% less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price. Boyd in Florida.