Dear Life Kit: He kissed me then took it back

The heart wants what it wants, but it's rarely that simple. Advice columnist Meredith Goldstein and psychologist Monica O'Neal — two longtime love experts and real-life friends — answer burning questions about work wives and friend zones, just in time for Valentine's Day. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:17Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:24Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, everybody, it's Marielle. Happy almost Valentine's Day to those who celebrate. Yeah, OK, it feels early, but by drugstore standards, they put out their singing stuffed animals and chocolate-filled hearts weeks ago. This episode is right on time. Today, we've got an edition of Dear Life Kit, the series where reporter Andy Tagle asks experts listeners' burning questions. Today, she's talking to two longtime love experts. Meredith Goldstein is the author of Love Letters, an advice column for The Boston Globe, and Monica O'Neal is a clinical psychologist who focuses on relationships. Oh, and they're also friends in real life.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Every time I talk to Monica about a problem, I'm like, you know, do you need a co-pay? I always want to make sure. I always want to make sure. So sometimes also just reminding people that some of the people who are the best counsel in your life, you can't only go to them because they are probably that person for many people, and that can be taxing, I can imagine.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  I don't ever feel taxed by you, Meredith. I don't. We have had plenty of these conversations over the years, haven't we?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26Marielle Segarra?

  By the way, Meredith says, try not to worry about all the pressure around Valentine's Day.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  It doesn't mean everything. If you decide you want to have it as an excuse to get a gift or do a nice dinner, that's fine. But if you have nothing to do that day, it is also totally OK, because a bunch of people aren't even going to know it's Valentine's Day. Personally, I'm a Halloween girl, so I just, you know, you might want to, you might want to pick a different holiday to really lean into, but don't, don't let this bother you no matter what.

• 1:55Marielle Segarra?

  After the break, they talk about work wives, bad breath, the friend zone, and more.

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• 3:30Speaker 06

  Are we ready to jump in?

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Yes, sure, absolutely.

• 3:32Speaker 06

  OK, question number one. Dear Life Kit, my husband has a female friend at work that he's very close with. Recently, I happened on a written conversation on my husband's computer with his friend. In their conversation, my husband was giving her a lot of assurance and was really open with his emotions, much more so than he is with me. When I confronted my husband, he became defensive and refused to show me any more of their conversations. He told me he only sees her as a sister, quotes, and that he feels I'm being competitive for no reason. How should I navigate this? Signed, Wary of Work Wife.

• 4:16Speaker 06

  All right, Monica, I'm gonna turn to you first.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Okay. Well, I think the hard part about this question is it's so multi-layered. It sounds like the thing that hit her the hardest was the fact that her husband is more emotionally available and open with this bestie. And there's something that's not surprising about that, but I can imagine that might fall hard on anybody that's on the other side of that, number one. And then, number two, if there is no discussion about her and the positive things about her, if this like work wife slash bestie isn't like giving any kind of deference to the actual wife in the marriage and his family life, that to me is like a big, big red flag and warning sign that there needs to be boundaries in place. That's my first thought.

• 4:59Speaker 06

  Okay, you're being more generous than I am feeling, but well, let's turn to Meredith, who I think is still, who is probably going to be kinder than the both of us. Meredith?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  So I think the first thing is to totally agree with Monica, like so much of this issue is about what's not being talked about at home and the relationship, the pieces of the relationship that are missing. And I also want to say right off the bat that I tend to be overly generous in situations like this, partly because at the Boston Globe, I have a best friend. We don't like work wife and work husband, those terms, but very early on in our now very long friendship, he was so excited to meet someone who was a friend, not just the parents of his children's friend, but a friend he chose that felt right. And for me, at a time that so many friends were getting married and having kids and unavailable, he came into my life ready to go see a movie, right? And listen to some records.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  And so many of our mutual acquaintances would say, well, is this weird? And what we learned was that very quickly, I was not just a work friend, not just a work wife, I was brought to his home. I hung out with his family. I just think that so much of this is about maybe separating the church and state of it all, that if it's more mysterious than understood, I can understand why there are weird feelings.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  The fact that you also were open to being a part of like his family's life and friends with his wife, that's, I think that's the difference. And my hunch is he, if she asked him about you, he didn't get defensive the way it sounds like this husband did. That would be the big, like a big red flag. You know, on my part, because I I under- okay, you're telling me that she is just a friend to you, but what are you to her? That's the piece that I would need to know.

• 6:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  Well, I'm gonna tell you, at the beginning of my relationship with my current partner, he talked about this friend that he had. And when we started dating, there's something inside of me was like, she's a little too over-familiar with me in a way that I don't know her, or she's saying things that feel loaded to me. He and I argued about it because he was very hurt. He was like, she's actually just a friend, and it's hard for me as a guy to make good friends at this point in my life. So I was like, I got it. Cool. Let's do a test, my love. And so, you know, I was just like, let's be scientists about this. So literally, while we were on a trip driving from Colorado back to Boston, we took beautiful, beautiful photos. And I was like, and when she messages you,

• 7:25Speaker 03

  message her back. Monica and I are having a great trip. Look at our photos. And if she doesn't say anything about the Monica and you having a great trip, and she doesn't say, these are beautiful photos, you know she wants you, and you need to set some boundaries.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Wait, what was the answer? What was the answer?

• 7:40Speaker 03

  She didn't say jack squat about the photos. She didn't say anything. She didn't even, she didn't even say, I'm glad you and Monica are having a good time. And so, in that case, I was right.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Yep, yep. You were right.

• 7:53Speaker 06

  Okay. I really like your approach to that. And I also think it's a fair point that you're making, Meredith. I think you're allowed to have friends of of different genders. I agree with you. For me, it's the husband not having any emotional intelligence at home, and then having a a high degree of emotional intelligence for this random coworker. That's what would really, really hurt me.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, experiencing my partner being emotionally available to another person when I don't experience that, that would hit very hard. But I would also be, again, this is the therapist in me, you know, says, be curious about this and ask the question, like, what is different about this bond that makes it easier for you to respond in this way? Because this is what I wish that I got from you. You know, I think I would be, I would, those are the kind of conversations I would lean into. And if he's still being a jerk and saying you're being jealous and competitive and being unreasonable, I think I would have to check him on that.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  One thing that this reminds me of is that during my friendship, especially when their kids were young. I feared I was getting a better version of my friend than his wife was getting because with me, he was well rested, he wasn't interrupted by toddlers. And he and I did talk about if everybody's getting the best of you, except your partner, what support do you need so that you can talk to each other while you're awake without 80 distractions? Because it's not fair that you and I get to sit through a movie and have fun and the two of you never do.

• 9:13Speaker 06

  Any parting thoughts for Wary of Work Wife?

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think have a big dinner all together and see how it feels. And that might answer a lot of questions.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:22Speaker 06

  Well, good luck to you, Wary of Work Wife. We're thinking of you. Are we ready for question two?

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  Dear Life Kit, I've started spending time with a man that I really like. He's a great communicator, he's generous, and he's kind. The problem is his breath is very bad, and I think it may be a deal breaker for me. What should I do? Signed, Waiting with Bothered Breath. Two points for you for that wonderful sign off. Okay, so lighter territory here, but still a puzzler. How are we feeling with this question?

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Well, so again, this is a personal thing for me because I remember being back in graduate school, having a similar encounter with somebody that I had known all through college. We both ended up in DC together and eventually we kind of started dating. But it was still very early on, but I thought because of the familiarity that we had from having known each other years before, I could actually bring this up to him. And so I tried to be very ginger, I tried to approach it very gingerly, and it just did not work out at all. Like in the end, it just like, yeah, things just like over time, I would say probably over the next couple of weeks, I just, there were less phone calls, less whatever, until it was just like, I think we should be friends.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  The thing is, I'd want to know. So that, that makes me, makes me feel like even if that guy was like, I cannot overcome the fact that she said this, I hope that someone else is, you know, enjoying the benefits of a, or a hygienic routine. But, you know, there's no easy way. But I, if it were me, I would very much appreciate someone telling me kindly.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 06

  That's true. That's a good point. I was kind of approaching this, this question from a different lens that like dumping someone over bad breath might be seen as a little bit petty. And so the, the bigger question for me here is that if something is super small, but it bothers you really deeply. Are you wrong?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  It reminds me of a letter I received once from someone who wanted to know if it was fair to break up with someone who was otherwise very nice because they slipped into baby talk.

• 11:26Speaker 06

  Ah!

• 11:26Speaker 02

  The thing is, this guy liked to do baby talk, and I'm not talking about in the bedroom, I'm just talking about in life. And it was infrequent, but when it happened, it poisoned the outing. And like, is it small, or is it big? If he likes to do baby talk, he should be with someone who loves it. So, yeah, I think, you know, to Monica's point, feedback is great, accepting feedback is great, but I wouldn't feel bad because you think it's small, because you gotta put your mouth on that mouth. It's not that small.

• 11:55Speaker 06

  Hmm. All right. Question three. Here we go.

• 12:00Speaker 06

  Dear Life Kit, my husband is almost 20 years my senior, and we've been married for 16 years. Our age gap never bothered me before, but now that he's in his 70s, he's become more forgetful than he used to be, and he seems depressed. I've suggested therapy, or hobbies, or trying medication, but he refuses it all. I love my husband, and never imagined leaving my marriage due to my partner's age. But I'm getting much less out of our relationship than I used to. I feel that I have so much more to live for, but he doesn't feel the same way. What should we do? Signed, Young at Heart. This one makes my heart heavy. Monica, you have a much different look on your face.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  I've struggled with this. I try not to be judgmental whatsoever, but...

• 12:40Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  You know, my parents are going on 52 years of marriage, and my dad having gone through cancer twice, and my mom having gone through a kidney transplant, and like, her perspective on like, being able to go through those things in partnership, and the way that it changes the relationship, and how like, the connection grows and deepens, and there's an appreciation that's there. So it's hard for me not to personally like, look at this and be like, you said, in sickness and in health, you know? And he was always 20 years older than you.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  The issue to me is not the age difference. It's his inability or discomfort with having any kind of help, whether that be, you know, talking to a doctor, talking to a therapist, like, and I think if a partner looked at me and said, "I'm having trouble in this relationship now, can we get help?" I want to say yes to that. So like, the issue to me is not the age gap, it's philosophies about assistance. And I wonder, you know, so many letters that come in to me, I'm like, "Well, you should go talk to a professional." But yet, I'm talking to a letter writer who is telling me their partner will not go to therapy with them or alone. And I always want to ask, like, a therapist, like, Monica, what do you tell that person? If you're with somebody who refuses any kind of intervention, is there hope?

• 13:54Speaker 03

  Right. Well, no. So that was my second part of it. I actually think it's incredibly selfish when people don't, when people refuse help. I always tell my patients, and I've said this to my partner, too, like, you know, that what you're going through is not just happening to you, it's also happening to me, and I need to trust that you care about my experience. And so I do think it's incredibly, incredibly selfish for him to refuse help. I think the thing is, is, you know, it's hard to know, but the tone of this letter, it doesn't, it seems less cooperative and less collaborative of like, "I'd like for us to get help, and I'd like for us to adjust to this change together." It's more kind of like, "I want to live life," and he's not doing anything.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  And I think that's the piece that I'm reacting to. And it's hard to know that, but that's, that's the tone of what I'm getting. Does that make sense?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Absolutely. I got a letter recently from somebody whose spouse was starting to believe conspiracy theories, and she was wondering if she allowed to leave a situation because she felt like she was married to somebody else. And, and in that sense, she kind of was. And my thought was, "This isn't even feeling safe for you at the moment." And, and I think, you know, that, that changes things quite a bit. So I think there's a big difference between sickness and health, aging, caring for somebody throughout, you know, the journey of life, and, "Wow, this is no longer the person I married, and there is a better way for us to find happiness." So I don't know. Monica, you're, you're like, better about these kinds of marital values.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Do you fall in the same place with that, about when it's okay to go?

• 15:34Speaker 03

  I do think that at some point you it's okay to say this is just not good enough or it's not sustainable enough for me and my well being and so because of that I have to go. But I do think that everything should be exhausted before you get to that point. There could be so much more truthfulness and acceptance. So I think you have to leave room for that to be a possibility. And I think so often people are afraid for that to be a possibility because that takes a lot of vulnerability and hard work. To say, I know I need something different. What can we build together? And if I love you enough and if I'm in our commitment and our vows mean enough. Let's try to do that first.

• 16:11Speaker 06

  Don't be hasty.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 06

  Um, ready for our last question?

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 16:15Speaker 06

  Dear Life Kit. I had dinner with a good friend recently. We were close in high school and despite living a few hours apart, we keep in touch and meet up every couple of years. During dinner, things turned a little flirtatious. You walked me back to my car and kissed me goodnight. He caught me off guard, but I was pleasantly surprised. The next day, he sent me a text saying he didn't want to pursue a romantic relationship because he's afraid to lose me as a friend. But kissing me and then taking it back risks losing me as a friend too, since I feel really hurt and confused. What should I do? Signed, friendzoned.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  This one makes me so mad.

• 16:48Speaker 06

  Meredith, please. Yes, okay.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Because I am a person who has had unrequited or mildly requited crushes on friends. My first thought hearing this is if you need some space, take whatever you need. But I'm coming from a place where I'm talking to my 23 year old self saying, yeah, he kissed you and then changed his mind and you're so upset.

• 17:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. That is, I just feel like there's no way to unawkward this awkward.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  I, you know, it's interesting. I have a, you know, I I'm with you. I have, I have a slightly different thought, only because this has come up like in conversations that I've had, like with my partner. I feel like there's like perhaps a dude perspective that I never thought about. He, that he put out there for me.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  I'm ready.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  He basically just said out forthright, he was like, I think men say that because they just don't want to either go there physically with somebody or they just know that they're There's not going to be a future. And when he said that, I was like, well, why would he go there anyways? He's like, because everybody's curious. People want to know. But like what he's like implicit in that is saying, because I don't see a future with you. This, I really don't want to go there with you. And when he said that, I was like, oh, that's another, I hadn't thought about that before.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Well, I'm thinking about your own advice to me and to people who read and listen to love letters. You talk about ghosting, right? And Monica is a very class act when it comes to never ghosting anyone and believes that there's never a reason to. And this is something I've tried to adopt in my own life. And I wonder, to your set of rules, would this have been better if this guy had said, "The minute we kissed, five minutes later, I thought, this isn't it."

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Like, "I, you are my friend. It is platonic." As opposed to, "I'm afraid of ruining the..." No, I don't want it. I wanted it and then I didn't, and I hope it doesn't ruin it.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Because everything in my gut told me.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  I want what we already have. And that, that could have, while, while it seems a little bit more cruel, I think it might be more kind.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Yes. No, absolutely. It's worth having the conversation to close the loop and she can share how much she was hurt. Because as a friend, he still should care about her feelings and care about whether or not he hurts her. But I think she's also learning that he probably is just not it for her.

• 19:05Speaker 06

  But you both think that there's a world where they can be friends after this?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, especially if there's a little bit more honesty and clarity. I think it can all be there. And this is with the caveat also that like, I don't know if this, if this person has been harboring unrequited feelings for a very long time. And this was like, finally, the kiss, right? Like, that's a little bit harder to get over. But then your relationship wasn't really platonic to begin with. It was, it was something else. So you should be able to overcome this.

• 19:33Speaker 06

  Monica, Meredith, it has been such a pleasure. Before I let you go, we ask every guest of Dear Life Kit for their very best piece of advice.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  I can go, which is Monica's brilliant thought that... Don't go, people. Be clear. Say the thing, even if it makes you feel a little weird to say it. I think that's fair. Like, sometimes saying the thing is so much better than not saying anything at all.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Meredith, I love you so much. Thank you for that. That's really sweet. Many, many years ago, I had such a wise, wonderful therapist named Anne, who basically said to me, goodbyes are supposed to feel sad. They're supposed to feel painful. This is, this is a normal thing. It really, it was like such a aha, life-changing moment for me.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  Monica, Meredith, thank you so much for letting me in to your friendship bubble for, for today. I feel so warm from the glow of your, of your love and friendship.

• 20:27Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 20:30Marielle Segarra?

  That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, talking to Monica O'Neill and Meredith Goldstein. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on cooking when you're just not that into cooking, and another on how to improve your posture. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter. Also, we love hearing from you. So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at [email protected]. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Cain is our supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret

• 21:14Marielle Segarra?

  Serino. Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 21:20Speaker 04

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