Pod Insights Life Kit Plus Dear Life Kit: Can I tell my friend she texts me too much? About this episode When it comes to friendship, how honest is too honest? Friendship experts, and real-life friends, Danielle Bayard Jackson and Marisa G. Franco weigh in on your thorny dilemmas around platonic relationships to help you create closer, lasting friendships. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
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0:24 Speaker 01 You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.
0:32 Speaker 01 Hey, everybody. It's Marielle. On today's show, we're talking about friendship. One thing I think is amazing about friends is that these are people you choose. I mean, we don't choose our families, generally don't choose our coworkers or the people we interact with at the grocery store. But with friends, it's like you go through your life noticing other people who you appreciate and admire, people who feel like kindred spirits. And then you say, hi, can I keep you? That's incredible. We love these people and spend time with them, not because we have to, but because we want to. If you flip that idea on its head, though, the fact that friendships are elective can make them feel fragile.
1:12 Speaker 02 We kind of know that we don't, quote unquote, "have to be here." And I wonder if that makes some of us especially tender to bringing up conflict because we know that this person can opt out the same way they opted in.
1:24 Speaker 01 Danielle Bayard Jackson is a friendship expert, an author of Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships.
1:32 Speaker 02 People are turning to friendship to offer a sense of ease and recreation and fun. It can feel risky to ruin that by bringing up something serious and difficult and challenging.
1:45 Speaker 01 But Danielle wants to encourage us to be more authentic with our friends, to talk about the places we differ. Because we are all different, but when we communicate openly with each other without judgment, we can get closer and make space for more than one way of being. Yeah, full disclosure, me and Danielle are friends. And I feel like you've told me before, like, I'm a struggle with texting or something like that. And I really appreciate that because I'm just like, oh, well, I'm never going to take-- and I have also not been the best texter with you, too. So I'm also like, I appreciate that we're both on the same page here. That's Marissa G. Franco, yes, Danielle's friend, and a psychologist, professor, and expert in human connection. She says this advice about being authentic with your friends and willing to disagree
2:27 Speaker 01 applies to the seemingly minor, everyday stuff and the more heated disagreements.
2:32 Speaker 03 If you really take anything today from what me and Danielle says, I feel like one thing is like, do not withdraw from your friend. Just give them the opportunity for repair, right? Because you're afraid that the friendship's going to end if you bring up this issue. But you guarantee that it will be end if you don't bring up the issue and you just withdraw.
2:49 Speaker 01 On today's edition of Dear Life Kit, the series where reporter Andy Tagle asks experts your burning questions, Andy talks to Danielle and Marissa about how to communicate with your friends and deal with conflict in friendship. After the break, your questions on a couples getaway that one party is dreading, on how to stay friends after kids, and about what to do when your friend is texting you too much.
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3:44 Speaker 01 On the next Throughline from NPR, the surprising story behind the discovery of insulin, led by a failed Canadian surgeon. The best way to describe it would be a reluctant hero. It's a story rife with personal grudges and many, many dogs. Listen to NPR's Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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4:29 Speaker 01 Are we ready? Ready for our first question?
4:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
4:31 Speaker 02 Let's do it.
4:32 Speaker 01 OK, Danielle, Marissa, thanks so much for joining us. Let's do it. Here we go. Question one. Dear Life Kit, I don't like My friend's husband and now she wants us to go on vacation with him. I have a friend that I love dearly, but a few years ago she married a man that's hard to get along with. He's cheap, rude to waiters and throws full-blown tantrums when he doesn't get his way. Before they got married, my friend and I would vacation together and always had a great time. So it would seem like a natural extension to now include our partners. However, I could not think of anything worse than spending my hard-earned vacation time cringing at her husband's behavior. Telling my friend I don't like her husband is definitely not an option. But how can I turn her down gently without revealing my true reason why?
5:18 Speaker 03 So I think, obviously, it's hard when people reject us. So what I tend to recommend is like a boundary and an offering. And so saying to this friend, like, you know, I actually really miss the times that we would spend together and the times that we would go on vacation together. And that was like so special to me. And I know that, you know, now we're married and things have sort of changed. But like, I was wondering if you would be open to like revisiting that special time we used to have together. Like, would you be open to going on a trip with just me if that's the alternative that you desire? If that's not the alternative that you desire, what other alternatives can you do? Can you say, oh, I don't think we'll be able to like go on a trip together with you, but could we go on a day trip? Maybe that's more passable. Or could we go to this restaurant together so we can all have some time to get to know each other?
6:02 Speaker 03 And so, don't go on this trip if you really don't want to go on this trip. Absolutely not. But is there an offering, an alternative offering that you could provide, which would make your friend feel less reductive, validate your investment in it, and allow you to do something that you can tolerate?
6:17 Speaker 01 Okay, so so much good stuff in there. Danielle, do you agree? Is there, is there a third option here? Is there another way, is there another path here?
6:24 Speaker 02 Totally agree. I was gonna say the same thing about, you know, maybe highlighting what it is you desire instead of what you don't. So the same thing, I miss girl time. It's just not the same if it's not us, you know? It can be playful. You know, friendship is elective. So you guys are friends, you have something special. You don't necessarily have to enjoy each other's partners. That's something they'd have to elect to do. But I think just continuing to enjoy each other because that's something special and it doesn't have to include others and that's okay.
6:52 Speaker 01 I like that. Don't shoot on yourself. There's not a relationship escalator when it comes to your friendship here. Do you agree with the letter writer that she can't tell her friend the truth about her feelings about her husband? Is there any situation in which it is appropriate to tell your friend? If this is a really close friend, if this is someone you really care about, how you feel about their spouse?
7:12 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, this is just general advice for giving people feedback. Instead of making it about their characters, what are the specific behaviors that you struggle with? And what comes up for you when that happens? Owning that, sometimes our reaction to someone is also based in our own triggers. And so, you know, I might say that like, you know, I think I struggle sometimes when he gets really angry and he really gets upset. And like, I have, you know, my own issues around like being exposed to anger. And that's like, why this is really hard on me. And you can like, share some vulnerability about your own past experiences and why this person is really triggering for you, too. And so, the more specific we can make it, and the more vulnerable we can be by saying, this is the past experiences that come up for me when this happens that make it really
7:57 Speaker 03 hard for me to, you know, come closer because of that, because of how this person's acting, then I think we make it less likely that our friend is going to be defensive.
8:06 Speaker 01 Marissa Danielle, thank you so much for this. Ready for question number two?
8:11 Speaker 02 Let's do it.
8:12 Speaker 01 Dear Life Kit, My best friend and I are in our mid-30s. We're both happily partnered off. He doesn't want children with his partner and is constantly talking about how he hates when his friends have kids and it always ends their friendship. I'm undecided about if I want children or not, but the other day, he told me if I ever had kids, it would be the end of our friendship because that would change everything. I tried talking to him about it, but he kept insisting that I would change and have less time for him. It seems a little harsh to drop your friend to 14 years because they had a baby, but I believe him as he's done this with other friends. I want to approach this again with him, but I don't know how. Any advice? Signed, Hypothetically Hurt.
8:50 Speaker 01 Okay. This is a painful thing, but I feel like we all have a ton on our plates. Do we really have time to be upset with our friends about hypothetical scenarios? Is my question. Do we have time to be pre-worried or pre-mad?
9:01 Speaker 03 Um, yeah. I mean, my suggestion here is to really like start with curiosity. Like, this sounds like a place of pain for your friend. And so can you just like try to understand more about like, why is this a friendship ending thing? It sounds like they fear that you're not gonna have enough time, or that you're going to reject them. And I think the more that you like hear out their experiences around this, this negative experience around this, the less volatile they become. And the other thing I would say is just like offering that like, the care and impact. When people are triggered, they tend to be self-centered because they're in too much pain, they don't have enough capacity to see yours. So can you say like, "I love you, our friendship is so important, I'd be so sad to lose you, even if this does change how much time, like how much love I have for you would never change.
9:43 Speaker 03 And I would love to figure out ways to still be invested in this friendship and still make sure that like, I don't know, your needs are being taken care of to the extent that I can do that, you know, when I have kids. And I just want you to know like, that would be a major loss for me. And you know, I hope that no matter where our friendship goes, you would be open to figuring out a way to continue it because I really love you."
10:01 Speaker 01 Hmm, yeah, absolutely. Danielle, I do think this is a very specific and very peculiar hurt our friend hypothetically hurt is experiencing, and I think there's a lot in the zeitgeist right now about the chasm that can form between friends before and after having kids, a very real thing. Initial thoughts, what do people often get wrong in the post-kids friendship conversation?
10:20 Speaker 02 I mean, it definitely sounds to me like an overcorrection, right? I've been hurt by friends before, they've pulled away when they have kids, are totally distracted, they adopt new interests, they want to talk about butt cream and diaper cream, and I have no interest, and I just don't want to go through that again. And so, hard boundary, not gonna have friends with kids. And I get that, but what's interesting to me is that it's almost like this person is trying to avoid some sense of rejection where the friends do have less time, and they do have new interests, and they do have unpredictable lives and obligations, that's true, but if it doesn't come in this form, a child, it can come in other... Any other form. I can't, you know, so, so it's like if our friendship changes in that way, I'm done.
11:05 Speaker 02 But this is one of those changes that is explicit that we can anticipate. Who knows what's gonna happen that changes my availability to you and my interests and things are going to change, our friendship's going to evolve. And Dr. Franco spoke earlier around, you know, how there has to kind of be space for your, you know, autonomy and your decisions. And I think that's why ultimatums don't really do well in relationships because you are removing my sense of agency. If I want to have children, I would hope as my friend, you're going to be there to be a witness to this transition in my life.
11:35 Speaker 01 Um, I'm a parent of a toddler myself and I can, I can't say I'm familiar with this exact scenario, but I can definitely relate to the strain parenthood puts on friendship and the amount of extra effort it takes on both sides to stay friends with people. Um, and even when you try, even when you really try, it can still feel like enough isn't enough. Um, I wonder any advice you have out there for any parents and non-parents stuck in that unsatisfied friendship limbo?
11:59 Speaker 02 Um, well, I've been on both sides. I have two. So I have a six-year-old and a three-year-old. But I remember when my friends started having kids. And I'll be honest, I remember feeling bored with their conversations because you're trying to be a good sport, but you just don't have the same interests. And I can only go so far, right, with this conversation. So I'm being polite, right? I don't want to have detailed conversations.
12:22 Speaker 01 Sleep training, cool, yeah.
12:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, like, oh, you know, like, come on, where, where's your cool? Where's your edge, you know? Um, I remember feeling a little left out um, because I saw how they gravitated toward friends who could have those conversations and I couldn't offer that anymore. Um, and I remember feeling like, um, a little discouraged because what once came with so much ease to pick up the phone and say, "Oh, do you want to swing by that new place tomorrow?" Now required so much mental labor and calculation. Well, let me see if so-and-so can take the baby and then maybe, and being discouraged by it. I do remember all those things, but it was worth it. I, I can't imagine a world where that person's not in my life. That's just what was required for us at the time.
13:07 Speaker 02 And I would say now as a parent, I'm grateful for friends who are patient and flexible and they understand. And it also offers understanding to me as a person because being a mom is a part of, to some degree, it's a part of who I am. This is who I am. So to have friends who can affirm that aspect of my identity is, is really important.
13:28 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Okay, last question. Here we go. Dear Life Kit, I made friends with a neighbor about a year ago. We became instant friends and have a lot in common. I really enjoy this person's friendship and company. However, she texts me nonstop. It starts with a good morning text every morning, then constant messages about every detail of her day, and then ends with a good night text in the evening. It's too much. I want to be this person's friend, so I don't want to hurt their feelings, but I wish we could just catch up in person. I don't need the daily play by play and good morning, good night texts every single day. Sometimes I don't respond, but it doesn't deter her. It turns me off the friendship. She's very sensitive, and I know saying something will hurt her feelings. I don't want to end the friendship,
14:12 Speaker 01 but she is driving me away. What do I do? Signed, unsubscribe.
14:19 Speaker 03 Well, you know, I hear this person really afraid of hurting their friend's feelings, which I think is a really beautiful thing. They have a lot of empathy towards their friends. But consider that it'll hurt their feelings a lot more if you end the friendship without giving them a chance to repair, right? Like, sometimes you have to do what feels cruel to be kind. And if you really take anything today from like what me and Danielle says, I feel like one thing is like, do not withdraw from your friend. Just give them the opportunity for repair, right? Because you're afraid that the friendship's going to end if you bring up this issue. But you guarantee that it will be end if you don't bring up the issue and you just withdraw, right? So at least give it a possibility. And you can just say, and offering a lot of affirmation, reassurance, "Hey, friend, like, I really do enjoy our friendship.
15:04 Speaker 03 I really love to connect. I know that I can be really lousy at texting, and I'm worried that that hurts your feelings. So would you be open to most of our connection happening in person?" Something like that. Again, owning that this is a difference. There's nothing wrong with your friend. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just a difference, and you're figuring out how to navigate it going forward.
15:23 Speaker 01 That's a really nice and clear cut solution. I can read from this question, and it seems like the friend previously has not been deterred from just not hearing back. If that doesn't really, if they don't really hear that feedback, you know? Like, if the texting continues, if they're like, "Yeah, sure, I understand. You don't have to respond to me all the time." If we still get the barrage of messages. Danielle, what do we, where do we go from there?
15:47 Speaker 02 You know, maybe tell this friend, "Hey, sorry if I'm not responding as much as you'd like."
15:56 Speaker 02 I actually prefer getting together in person. I feel like I can enjoy people more when we're talking in person. And when I get messages throughout the day, it actually makes me really anxious. And so catch up in person is kind of my thing. So I'm letting you know that it's not just that I'm not going to text you back as much as you'd like. I am letting you know what it does to me. It actually makes me anxious to to get lots of messages. So that's why I just really um like to enjoy people in person. Um, and hopefully people can pick up the subtext, which is, girl, I'm gonna need you to stop blowing up my phone.
16:32 Speaker 02 You know, and and you know, another theme is about having space for your preferences. You know, remind yourself of what values you would say that you have in friendship. Do you value honesty? Do you value openness? Do you value there being room for both people to to have their needs met? This is that, like, this is that in practice. So it's super uncomfortable, but this is you kind of pushing back to see, is there space for me here? Is there space for me to be in this friendship and say what I need to? Um, as opposed to shrinking myself so that she's comfortable. And I just know that if it were me and I were a person just blowing somebody up, I would want that information. Because the last thing I would want is to make anybody in my life feel overwhelmed.
17:13 Speaker 02 Or to know that they're they're they're stressed over how to let me know. I would want that information. And it's a chance for me to show them you are safe with me to tell me that information, whether it's texting or some other detail. This is my opportunity on the receiving end to show you. Okay, a little awkward for me, feel a little embarrassed, but I hear you, say less, I gotcha.
17:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, it may be an opportunity for closeness, you know, like I feel we're close enough friends that I feel like I could tell this to you. Um, and I really like the approach there, which is like, it's not you, it's me.
17:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, full disclosure, me and Daniela are friends. And I feel like you've told me before, like, I'm I'm struggle with texting or something like that. And I really appreciate that because I'm just like, oh, well, I'm never gonna take. And I have also not been the best texter with you too. So I've also like, I appreciate that we're both on the same page here. And I appreciate when people are upfront about their own style, like our phones. phones are a middleman between us and other people. And sometimes we think that middleman reflects who that person is, but for some people, it really does not. Like they're neglecting us over the phone, but in person, we get their full attention. And so I think it's really important to recognize when is the middleman reflect the person and when does it not?
18:22 Speaker 02 Hmm. Oh, that's so good. She's always dropping bars.
18:25 Speaker 01 I'm going to write that one down and put it on my wall.
18:28 Speaker 02 It's so good. I mean, you assign meaning to things that people do and don't do. Like the duration that it takes of of going back and forth. You could assign meaning to that, like, oh, she doesn't care. She's not as invested. She doesn't respect, you know, what I'm saying to her. I'm not worthy of a response. I do not want anyone thinking that. It's just overwhelm or distraction. So at least kind of reassuring that person that um I see you, I hear you, you matter. I also struggle with this thing. So I know it might strike up a certain feeling, but I need you to know, you know, what's really going on for me. Um, is is can be helpful, but I know the texting is a whole other issue.
19:07 Speaker 01 Hmm, absolutely. Um, before we let you go, we ask every guest of Dear Life Kit for their best piece of advice, if anyone has one to start.
19:16 Speaker 02 I will say I had lunch today um with someone who I was meeting in person for the first time. We've been chatting on email, but we met in person. And she was talking to me about how she is experiencing more joy in her life because she's living a values-aligned life, which I hear people say all the time. But she was talking about how she intentionally pauses to think about the choices she is making. Uh, whether it's to say yes to this email or to end the call for today and go home to the kids. That along the way, she's training herself to think through her values. And sometimes that's inconvenient. Sometimes it's it's awkward. Um, sometimes she's letting people down, but it helps to keep her on track.
19:58 Speaker 02 And I just really appreciated the reminder to not just go so quickly on autopilot all the time and to pause intentionally uh throughout your day, throughout your week, to ask yourself if the decisions you're making are congruent with the values you claim to have. And that's something that I've trying, I'm gonna try to um commit to moving forward because I saw the joy like emanating from her and I want to try to be more intentional about that as well.
20:25 Speaker 03 Danielle, that was so nice. Thank you for that reminder. I'm just thinking about one of my therapy supervisors who said, anything unspeakable to you is affecting you and like to find time to spend with things that are unspeakable. Because I feel like this whole conversation has been about anything unspeakable to you is also affecting your friendships. So.
20:47 Speaker 02 That's so good. Add it to the wall.
20:50 Speaker 01 That was reporter Andy Tagel. Before we go, Dear Life Kit wants to hear from you. Do you have doubts about your romantic relationship? Questions about compatibility or whether you're with the right person? Write to us at npr.org/dearlifekit. And for more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. You can find them at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Kwesi Lee. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.
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