Why you should take a 'say no' retreat

If you often overextend yourself or struggle to uphold your boundaries, telling people "no" might not feel easy. But Caroline Sylge, author of the book, How to Retreat: A Guide to Stepping Away from the Everyday to Find Space for Your Self, says that learning to say "no" might just take some intentional practice. This episode, Sylge offers advice on saying "no." And she makes the case for a "say no" retreat — carving out a full day to practice telling people "no." Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include sponsor-free listening and convenient playlists of popular help topics like personal finance, getting healthy, and more. Learn more at plus.npr.org http://plus.npr.org/. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 07

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• 0:24Marielle Segarra?

  I had to kind of say no to myself last night. I get in a mood when I come home from traveling where I'm like, OK, time for more home improvement. Oh, yeah. I was saying to my partner, like, I think we should paint this wall. I think we should paint this wall. Yeah.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Should we redo the whole bedroom? And I was like, you know what?

• 0:42Marielle Segarra?

  I don't need to do this.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  No, I just think I'll just go to bed. But you know what? It's interesting. You tapped into something there. You've demonstrated you were, in a way, on a little mini retreat away from your space. You come back and you can see with clarity a few things. But as you said, you did yourself the favor of thinking, actually, I don't have the energy ultimately. I'm just gonna- I really don't. I'm gonna put that idea on pause and go to bed.

• 1:07Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Mary El Segarra. You're listening to Life Kit. And that was Caroline Sylge, author of the book, How to Retreat: A Guide to Stepping Away from the Everyday to Find Space for Yourself.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Retreating is there to serve you in different ways throughout your life. It's not just something you do once. It's like a repetitive thing that you can do according to different themes and needs.

• 1:29Marielle Segarra?

  A lot of people, when they hear the word retreat, they think they have to go to some far-flung place, do some yoga, and get away from it all completely.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:40Marielle Segarra?

  And if that's not available to them in their day-to-day or week-to-week life, then they probably aren't thinking that a retreat is possible.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So that's what I wanted to do, is reclaim retreating for everyone. So I have been retreating myself in various ways for over 30 years. And over that time, I have picked up some key principles which I feel make a really wonderful immersive experience, whatever your life goals might be. So I wanted to bring retreating into everyone's lives and make it something that was accessible, that you didn't need a kind of high-class, luxury spa to do, and that you could do, actually, even if you just have a simple hour in a day.

• 2:27Marielle Segarra?

  Caroline says retreating is about stepping away from your day-to-day life, from the stresses and strains of society, so that when you return, you can flourish. And how long does it take to properly retreat?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  I think that you can retreat, in inverted commas, for as little as 20 minutes, to be honest. I have a Vedic meditation practice that I do twice daily now. I've been doing for over four years, 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the afternoon. And for me, that is a daily retreat. Obviously, the more time and energy you put into something, depending on what your goals are, the more depth you'll get out of it.

• 3:07Marielle Segarra?

  Caroline walks through lots of different possible themes for retreats in her book. But the one that grabbed me in this moment was the say no retreat.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Do you know what? I want to say that you really did pull my favorite. I love saying no.

• 3:19Marielle Segarra?

  In the book, you suggest this as a one-day retreat. You say that this can help us reclaim ourselves. What does that mean?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I think one of the things in our society that we need more of is time, energy, and space. And I do believe that one way of doing that is to be able to say no to things with grace and good humor that really do not serve us. And I see people around me in my everyday who continually say yes to things, particularly women, and say yes to things for different reasons, because they feel they should, or they must, or they want to feel more liked, or more accepted, or they don't want to miss out, or they just don't feel equipped to be able to say no, when actually, if they

• 4:12Speaker 02

  did learn how to say no to things that aren't serving them, then they could have more energy, time, and space to say yes to all the stuff they want to say yes to, and that will serve them and their families and those around them as well.

• 4:26Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah. It just reminds me how much other people have priorities. Everyone in the world has priorities, including for you. Like, we need you to do this. We need you to do this. I need you to show up to that. Yes. They're just thinking about how you fit into their priorities. And if you don't think about your own, if you don't carve out that space, then, next thing you know, you're just like trying to meet everyone else's needs, and you're not even thinking of yourself as a person anymore.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  That's right. Saying yes when you really mean no can lead to situations that actually do drain you. It's saying that your time and energy are endless, and that your well-being doesn't matter. And that just creates a spiral, because once you say yes to something, then someone says, oh, you know, they're good for that. I'll get them next time. I'll do that. And so you go on and on, and you start creating this loop. The other exciting thing that happens is that when you start to say no to things in an honorable, kind, clearly thought-through way, you can inspire others to follow suit, again, on the best terms. So I used to, for example, say to people that I was working, when actually, I was

• 5:39Speaker 02

  having a massage, or going for a swim, or going for a walk to take care of my well-being. But I thought saying I was working would be more acceptable.

• 5:49Marielle Segarra?

  Right.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  But then, as I slowly started to own my choices, and actually said, I can't do that, because I'm actually booked to massage, you know, my muscles are really hurting me, round my shoulders and neck, because I'm on the computer too much, but I'll be able to do it another day, or in the future, or another time. Once I started to be more honest, other people were also honest back, and they themselves owned their own choices, and everyone became more authentic. It's like a win-win situation. You grow respect for yourself, you grow respect for others, they respect you, and then they start to respect their own choices.

• 6:21Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I like that you frame it as a brave act of self-respect, saying no. I really believe that.

• 6:30Marielle Segarra?

  On this episode of Life Kit, how to do a say no retreat, and to bring that energy back into your everyday life, so you can create space for the things that matter to you the most.

• 6:48Speaker 00

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• 7:57Marielle Segarra?

  You say in the book that we should take a day to prepare to say no.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's basically taking a day off, taking your day out, but taking it with intention. So preparing to say no to all these different things in your life that might free up energy, time, and space for yourself. And I've said to prepare to say no, so that you can not feel stressed by this idea, but the actual day itself is a sort of nurturing shell that you can give yourself to take care of yourself, honor yourself, have some intentions around saying no, make lists, and then follow through at another time. I see.

• 8:40Marielle Segarra?

  OK, so what's the plan? How do you do this? The day of, when you wake up, what's the first thing you do?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  The night before, you would put away all your devices. That would be the first thing to say, and keep them off for the duration. On the day, you would give yourself a chance to wake naturally. You'd be on your own. Ideally, you would have created your own retreat space. You would reach for some paper and pencil, or you would reach for a journal. You open your journal, and you start on waking, just to make a very simple list of things that you would like to say no to. You could start by asking yourself, who or what in your life right now do you most obviously, in your gut, want to say no to, such as a one-off situation or an ongoing commitment? Perhaps something you've got planned for this Friday night, or something you said yes to yesterday, like joining a committee which you're not quite sure about.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  So you just, on waking, stay in bed, pick up your pen and paper, and jot down two or three things which are really immediate wins, like, I definitely don't want to do these.

• 9:40Marielle Segarra?

  That alone is kind of a relief, when I've just written down, no, I don't want to do this. I'm gonna say no to this. Absolutely.

• 9:50Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway one, set aside a full day for your say no retreat. And unplug, don't even set an alarm. When you wake up, make a list of some things you want to say no to in your life. What immediately comes to mind? Then eat some breakfast and get yourself into nature. So you have some time to sit with that list. Maybe you take a bike ride or go for a walk.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Then you come back, go into your chosen retreat space. I do say to honor this space at the beginning of every session. So this might be lighting a candle or touching an object of nature that you've collected next to you, or putting some essential oil on some of your pulse points. Anything that just kind of marks your beginning a session. And then settling yourself down, returning to your say no list and building on it. By tapping in to the rest of your week, then next week, then next month. What about in the next 12 months? What have you been invited to? What feels good? What doesn't feel right? What regular things do you attend to?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  How else can you free up your time and your energy and your space to live a better life?

• 11:01Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, you actually have a list of things you could say no to. Yes. In the book. What are some of your favorites or the most surprising ones?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  I, for a long time, had a long to do list for a long time, whether it was on paper or in the notes section of my phone. And I realized that some of these things kept staying on the list. And I kept looking at them and I, in the end, I thought, do I actually really need to ever do these in my life? And I thought, no, I never need to do these things. Like, life is too short. So I just got rid of them. So one of the main things I like here is I've written, look at your to do list. Is there something that's been on there a bit long? Be honest with yourself. Do you really need to do it? Or is it just going to be another layer of stress every time you look at it? If you don't need to do it, really, just cross it off.

• 11:51Marielle Segarra?

  What's an example from your life?

• 11:53Speaker 02

  An example from my life is I am very into photography. And I have a lot of photos, particularly travel photos from my kind of twenties and thirties. And on my list for a long, long time was edit photos. And this is like an enormous task. So in the end, over time, it's taken quite a painful process. I've given myself permission to just say to myself, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to look at my photos when I want to, but I'm not going to go through and edit them all. So your to do list, you could say no to. Regular commitments, committees, clubs, classes, voluntary work you're on. Actually, what's important, pay attention to yourself, to your loved ones, to your friends,

• 12:37Speaker 02

  to your family, to your community, to things that matter. And say, I'm not going to pay attention to this other stuff because it's depleting me and taking my integrity away and taking my energy away. The energy I need to focus on the good stuff.

• 12:56Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway two, build on your say no list by thinking about your upcoming days, weeks and months. Is there anything you've planned that you're dreading? Are there tasks you've given yourself that, oop, turns out you don't actually have to do? There's a wall in my living room that I feel like I need to repaint because I repainted all the others. But it's a gallery wall, so that would involve taking down a lot of art. And the wall looks fine. So I'm saying no to myself. Coming up, our say no retreat continues.

• 13:38Speaker 04

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• 13:42Speaker 00

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• 14:08Speaker 06

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• 14:31Marielle Segarra?

  So we talked about when you wake up and then the notes that you're going to start to take about things that you want to say no to. What comes after that?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  So you've been on your walk, you come back, you settle down with your list and you check in with other points in your diary, next week, the future, et cetera. When you've got a list with which you're reasonably satisfied, choose one, two or three things you'd like to say no to today. And these could be easy wins. It's good to start with easy wins. It could be canceling an appointment, drafting an email to send when you're back online, or popping a note in your calendar to cancel something bigger when you have more time. So practice taking action now and it will be easy to say no to the things on your list as you get the hang of it.

• 15:18Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, it's time to start actually saying no. You probably won't get to all the no's on your list today, but like Caroline said, you can pick a small, easy win. Maybe you finally quit that subscription for the streaming service you never use. Done, that's a no. You can also start thinking about some of the harder no's. The ones that involve saying no to someone you care about or you have to work with. Caroline has some suggestions.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Taking your time. Crafting a kind decline takes effort, but it saves time in the long run. Being gracious, so saying no with kindness. Suggesting alternatives. A softened no can include another option. Delaying your yes. Your no can be temporary. I'd love to, but can we plan it for a few weeks later? Trusting others. Honest declines can encourage others to be more authentic. Not thinking that you have to over explain why you're saying no. Sometimes a simple polite decline can work. Speaking in person with the trickier things, sometimes a phone call, even a face to face chat makes things feel kinder and clearer. And then just practicing.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  So starting small and building your confidence so that you have more ammunition when you want to say no to bigger things. As you take action, you start to feel how it makes your body feel. And if it makes it feel good, if you check into your gut, then you know you're on the right track. You feel a little lighter.

• 16:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  If you feel conflicted, then it may be not the right choice. Retreating as well is about really tapping into your guts, your instinct, and not listening to the voices around you, but listening to yourself right down deep inside. And I think the other thing to say here is, we think other people care more than they do sometimes, right? So actually, it's no big deal. Something that you felt is a big deal, not going to this party or not accompanying someone to this festival or whatever it might be. Sometimes it's absolutely fine and we've built it up in our heads to be something massive. When that's, actually, it's not. Yeah. Again, tapping into the principles of retreating. We are all connected.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  We're not isolated. We're more similar than we're different. And taking time to really check in with who we are enables us to connect with people, reconnect with people.

• 17:38Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah. This comes back to something that I think about a lot, which is we all have more agency than we think.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:49Marielle Segarra?

  More power to make choices. There are things that even seem fixed, right? Or somebody's going to get really upset if we say no to this. Or we absolutely, we have to do it if we want to still be part of this group or part of this workplace or whatever. And it's not usually that black and white. Usually there's space to negotiate, but if there's not, I don't know. I think it still helps to remember that you still get to say no.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And again, this micro retreating, these little tiny points of micro retreating, lead to bigger things. They lead to bigger transformation in yourself. And that's what's so exciting about retreating as a principle. And the other thing I wanted to say in relation to what you just said is we need to allow ourselves to feel discomfort. Saying no, for example, can feel awkward and it may disappoint others. But if it's the right decision for you, it is worth it. And if you practice tolerating that discomfort and your anxiety around saying no, it will ease over time and give you more power and strength to say no to things that do truly matter in the big ways. Yeah.

• 18:56Marielle Segarra?

  What do you do if you tell someone, let's say a family member, that, listen, I'm not going to make it to this thing? And they're upset or they're disappointed or, you know, maybe they're even angry at you. Or they tell you, you know, you're a bad sibling or you're a bad daughter or, you know what I mean?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Again, it goes back to being your own judge. If you feel that you've made the right choice and it's not a selfish one, as in you're not going to be letting someone really important to you down. If you have made the right choice on your own terms and you've explained it kindly and with love and clearly, then whatever the reaction they're having, that's their personal stuff, right? So again, it's encouraging people to live their truth. And sometimes you can't be responsible for other people's reactions. That's why kindness is really important. But there's also going to be a point where you need to let it go. And you've said your piece, you've said why you can't go, you just leave it, let it go. You just have to listen to your gut and listen to others. And sometimes you can be persuaded, right?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  If someone you know and trust reacts violently against your decision, maybe you need to listen to that and have a discussion with them with kindness. But all of these, all of this retreating is strengthening your resolve, strengthening yourself, getting to know yourself better so that you are in a position of strength to understand and know others.

• 20:21Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway four, there are some tasks or responsibilities that are draining or that you do dread, but that you'll want to do anyway because they're important to you. Like taking care of a family member or showing up for a grieving friend. Getting into the say no mindset doesn't mean abandoning our relationships with people. It's about making sure we're not abandoning ourselves.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  How do you wrap up the day? So after you've had a go at saying no to one, two, or three things, absolutely kind of celebrate, pat yourself on the back, rest, have a meal, share your feelings perhaps with a trusted friend, or enjoy time alone, relaxing as you choose. Celebrate the fact you've begun to reclaim some time and energy. And then before sleep, briefly refer back to your list and add or tweak anything that has come to you. So yeah, I mean, how you wrap the day up at the end is up to you. You might have a hot bath, you might get into your pajamas and read, you might take some notes. Always stay off your devices so you're staying in your present moment with your process.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  And let yourself have a fantastic sleep, hopefully, and await next morning refreshed and with the reclaimed energy and time that you've created for yourself, with more resolution to have a better existence.

• 21:42Marielle Segarra?

  Caroline, thank you so much for this. I'm excited to start saying no to more things.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Oh, bless you. I hope so. So that you can say a great big yes to all the stuff that feels good.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:55Marielle Segarra?

  All right, time for a recap. Takeaway one, set aside a full day for your say no retreat. When you wake up, make a list of some things you want to say no to in your life. What immediately comes to mind? Then take a break in nature. Takeaway two, build on your say no list by thinking about your upcoming days, weeks, and months. Is there anything you've planned that you're dreading? Are there tasks you've given yourself that you don't actually have to do or even want to do? Takeaway three, start actually saying no. Pick a small, easy no that you can issue today. And takeaway four, there are some tasks or responsibilities that are draining or that you dread, but you'll want to do anyway because they're important to you or they align with your values. Only you can decide what these are.

• 22:43Marielle Segarra?

  All right, that's our show. By the way, if you like Life Kit, why not tap the follow button? That way, you'll never miss an episode. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib, and our visuals editor is CJ Ricolon. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagel, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Tiffany Vera Castro. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 23:25Speaker 00

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• 24:00Speaker 04

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