Practical advice for modern dads

We often talk about the mental load of parenting as something mothers carry. But active, involved dads have questions, too, and not many places to ask them. In this episode, Kevin Maguire, author of The New Fatherhood, and clinical psychologist David Defoe answer listener questions from dads. Sign up for Life Kit's skin care newsletter http://npr.org/skincare. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:17Marielle Segarra?

  This is NPR's Life Kit. I'm Marielle Segarra.

• 0:23Marielle Segarra?

  Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, hi.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  Hi, Marielle. Good morning.

• 0:27Marielle Segarra?

  One of your favorite topics, I feel like, on Life Kit is the mental load. What does it mean?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  The mental load. The mental load is so many things. It's sometimes called invisible labor. It's all that behind the scenes, thinking, planning, organizing, executing. It's everything it takes to keep a household running. And oftentimes, it falls on one person more than the other.

• 0:56Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I feel like when we talk about the mental load, we're often talking about women and moms. Why is that?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Because, you know, in aggregate, that's what the data shows. You know, in most heterosexual relationships, it's the female that takes on the lion's share of the work. Because, you know, socialization. Even when both partners are working, even when both partners make the same amount of money, that's not the truth of every individual relationship or every individual family. I know lots of super-involved dads. My dad is one of them, my husband is one of them. I know dads who are the primary parent. But in aggregate, overall, that's what the data shows.

• 1:38Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, the data doesn't tell the whole picture. And I guess that is something that you heard after you did your last episode on the mental load. You heard from a bunch of dads, right?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So a big inspiration for today's episode is a recent story we did that wasn't exclusively for women and moms. But because it was about the mental load, a lot of the language was directed toward only them. And some of the examples were gendered. So I heard from a lot of men and husbands and fathers being like, hey, you know, we want to be a part of this conversation. They felt excluded. They said, you know, like, we are really involved too. You know, we are here, we contribute. What gives? And I was like, fair. And you know, the research backs these guys up. The winds are changing. One recent study found that American dads are spending more time on household and child-wearing activities than in the previous two decades.

• 2:32Marielle Segarra?

  So this is a mailbag episode, a Father's Day mailbag. Who are your experts?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  One of them is Kevin Maguire. So he's a consultant and author of the new book, The New Fatherhood, which is also the name of his very popular newsletter and community about all things fatherhood.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  There is just this huge scope for really kind of like the dads who embrace fatherhood. It's almost dad-maxing, right? Like to really seek to get the very most that they can get out of their relationships with their children.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  And then our other expert is David Defoe. He's a clinical psychologist and also a friend of the pod.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  I think that it's important for us to sort of, you know, give men credit because men are showing up more. And I think a part of that is because while we have so much longer to go, we are beginning to develop the emotional strength to, you know, express ourselves better so that we know how to show up better.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  There is no shortage of things to talk about. So that's what we have for you for this episode. Lots of practical advice for modern dads. Things like anger and how to express it in a healthy way, friendship and where to find it, and how to navigate high-stress parenting situations with your partner, and lots more.

• 3:51Speaker 05

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• 4:12Speaker 00

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• 4:53Marielle Segarra?

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• 5:23Speaker 02

  First up, we've got a question surrounding gender roles.

• 5:27Speaker 07

  Hi, Life Kit friends. This is Rob Teran from St. Louis. I'm a single dad raising a five-year-old daughter, and I find myself wrestling with questions about what should I teach her about men? On one hand, I see the real dangers women face. Stories of harassment and assault are everywhere. What should I be teaching her so she can feel safe, strong, and respected without growing up seeing every man as a danger?

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I thought that was an excellent question. I know that as a mother to a son, this is something I struggle with. I wonder if you have any advice for our listener?

• 6:04Speaker 04

  That's a very courageous question, and I applaud you 100% for the question. And I think the most important thing that we can do for our daughters is to be that present example.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  Where I am now, my daughter is fourteen. I think for me, it's making sure that she knows that what a man provides should look safe, it should look steady, and that she's protected, that she's loved, but it's also about how that person shows up to handle your emotions, to handle the myriad of concerns that come to you. And for me, I think that one of the things that was most challenging was when my daughter hit puberty, I noticed that I started to retreat because things got a little, I'll be honest, things got a little awkward and I don't understand. And so for this gentleman, that's a single father, I would just say that when that does

• 6:59Speaker 04

  come, you know, make sure that you stay engaged, make sure that you stay attentive, that you don't get uncomfortable when things do change, but yet you, you know, you stay that present help to her.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  I love that, David. And, you know, it really feels like as a father of a daughter who's on the verge of entering her teenage years, really kind of keeping those channels of communication open and making her feel safe and secure that she can come to me with anything, you know, it's not just like go to your mum. And I think that's one of the, one of the big shifts that we've seen in fatherhood is really the idea that, you know, more, more men are really taking responsibility, not just for the, the things that fatherhood has traditionally been known for, but the emotional side of things as well. Uh, just to, just to address the, the question, you know, I think this is kind of just one of the biggest things that we're all trying to navigate as parents today, which is like,

• 7:53Speaker 03

  how do we raise our children to be just aware of, of what is going on in the world without being terrified of it? You know, it could be the dangers that a young woman will face from other men, it could be the kind of, the climate crisis, it could be political. What I often think about when I think about my daughter is just like, how do I allow her to keep that curiosity and excitement that she has about the world and not to dampen that? And the job that we do as parents is to try and help shepherd them through that, that path.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Okay, moving on to our next question. It seems like there are an infinite number of resources for mommy meetup groups, but not a ton of options for fathers. I'd like to have more of a support group the way that my wife does, specifically something separate from just the partners of her friends. But I don't really know what to do about it when I barely have enough time and energy in the day to spend with my family.

• 8:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, we don't prioritize friendships and connections. It feels like a heavy load, like we feel that we need to be invited to these things. When like everyone is crying out, like there's so many men are yearning for any kind of community. And all it takes is just to start something up. I hosted a meetup for dads, it's on the third Wednesday of the month. And I I made it as low stakes as possible. I said, I am gonna go to this bar. I'm going to bring a book. If anyone joins me, I would rather talk to you than read the book. But if nobody turns up, it's fine. And regularly now, there's, there's twenty of us that have connected to each other over this idea of a deeper, more richer sense of what fatherhood could look like.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  I think even also how we form friendships are different, which I think Kevin sort of mentioned. Women, of course, their friendships are often face to face. Men, we're more so shoulder to shoulder. We have to be doing something. There has to be some activity, you know, a basketball run or a project or a group or something like that, or even as Kevin said, you know, saying, I'm gonna meet in this bar. And what is the purpose of meeting in the bar? Not to talk about this particular topic, but we're gonna have some beers and whatever comes up, comes up. And that's perfectly fine. We find connection not by happenstance anymore, especially when you get older. It has to be some intentionality, you know, it, it has to be something that's scheduled.

• 10:14Speaker 04

  And it has to be something that we can then defend and put some structure around to say, you know what, this is what I do every Thursday with this group of people.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  And people are looking for that excuse to have these connections. When I talk to younger dads, there is a real drive to connect together in more meaningful ways, even if that means confronting feelings, you know, I think the, all of these men circles that are starting to become more and more popular now, you know, I've been, I've run a few of them myself, both online and in person. And they are very much not shoulder to shoulder by definition. You know, I think this idea of men becoming more emotionally intelligent, emotionally resilient, and finding the space to do it with other men who are trying to do that work

• 11:03Speaker 03

  too, I think is, is one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in in fatherhood for this generation.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  So what are you waiting for? Take a quick break with us and text that dad friend from daycare to schedule a meetup for a beer or event session, meet up to talk about this podcast. When we come back, we'll talk about working through anger, dealing with parenting stress in your relationship, and managing the mental load.

• 11:31Speaker 00

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• 12:15Marielle Segarra?

  Download it in your app store today.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  The next topic I have for you is anger. I'm thinking about how a lot of the dads in my circle are determined to be better emotional role models for their kids, but were raised by fathers who either didn't talk about their feelings or had that "I'll give you something to cry about" attitude. Can we talk a little about why it can be so much more difficult for men to express their feelings generally and towards their kids specifically?

• 12:46Speaker 04

  I don't think that we were taught how. We don't have a good example. Society tells us, you know, men don't cry, men ought to be strong, suck it up, whatever it is that people say. The thing is, when we don't have the emotional vocabulary to express how we're feeling, instead it comes out in negative behavior. You know, I don't know who said it, but someone once said, "You act out what you won't talk out or cry out." Um. And so it comes out instead in negative behavior and pent up emotions. And so I think it's important for men to go through the process of developing the emotional vocabulary. So they can speak to how they feel so that they can talk honestly to their children. So that there's not like things like displacement happening.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  So because I can't tell the boss how I really feel, I'm going to come home and I'm going to take that out on you. Or I'm short with you because I'm upset over here or I'm not processing how I'm feeling over here. And that we could do that professionally, um, and we also can do that on our own.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  You know, for me, I'm one of those, I don't get angry kind of guys, like, ah, I don't get angry. And I was, I was almost boasting to my therapist and saying, hey, I only think I lost my temper like five times in the last ten years. And she said, well, what if your kid came in and intentionally just smashed something of yours that you cared about? And I said, well, I, I think I would just stand up and walk away. And she said, well, you know, why don't you tell them that you're feeling angry? So for me, it's been a real process of learning to allow myself to be angry in a weird way. When a situation arises in the house and I think, is anger a proportional response right now?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  It's a really interesting inverse, I think, of what David was saying earlier. David, I wonder if you could tell us, what does, what does good anger, what does healthy anger look like?

• 14:33Speaker 04

  I say to my clients all the time, listen, if you can make an emotion, eh, even if it's anxiety, if you can make it useful, you can keep it. Anger is a natural human response when lines have been crossed. The only question is, well, what do I then do with it? So if I can get it targeted and if I can aim my anger at the right place so that it actually solves my problem in a beneficial way, as opposed to deteriorating my relationships, as opposed to it coming out with cynicism, with disrespect, or even aggression, then I can keep it, then it's beneficial. So I grow from it as opposed to blowing up from it.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, or, or David, or, or as we all too often do is turn the anger in on ourselves. If we can't find a good place for it.

• 15:20Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. That's where guilt and shame then comes in. Um, you know, where we start to get angry at ourselves.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  So anger doesn't have to be a bad thing. If you can understand it and use it right.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, you point it in the right direction.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Okay, the last question I'm bringing you is from right here at home in San Diego. I asked my husband, a modern dad, what he might need some help with. His name is Andres Alvaro Cardenas. He gave it a think and he came back with a question about dealing with stressful parenting situations with your partner. Here he is.

• 15:54Speaker 05

  Our son has been waking up all hours of the night screaming for his mom, even though just a few months back, he was able to self soothe and put himself back down. We have a general game plan, but he keeps waking up with different wants and needs. And because we sometimes add to the chaos by disagreeing. So do you all have any strategies on how to quickly get on the same page with your partner when it's necessary to improvise?

• 16:16Speaker 03

  Well, first, Andy, like to your husband, props for the question first up. On the second one, uh, when I was listening to it, my mind immediately went back to my wedding day, actually.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  And just as we were leaving, there was this old couple that came up to us just as we were getting in the car. And I remember it so vividly and they walked up to us and they smiled and the husband said, hey, uh, you're gonna have some good times. You're gonna have some bad times, but no matter what happens, remember this, you're on the same team. And I think this so often with parenting, which is like, how do you both put yourselves on one side of the table and put the problem on the other? Whether the problem is the mental load, whether the problem is a child that can't sleep. Um, you know, children not sleeping is a particular flavor of problem because everything is exacerbated.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  When we haven't had our seven hours.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, a hundred times worse, yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  It's so much worse and we're snappy with each other and that kind of resentment builds like I did this last night and you like, I was up three night and all these things. And I think just to, to get to the place where you go, hey, you know, we're on the same side here is the best way that we can support each other to be able to get there. But, you know, I, I feel for you.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  Very courageous question, especially for your husband to ask it in your own workplace.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Takes courage, right? As, as Kevin said, it will get better. Okay. But while you're in the process of getting better, I want you to understand that your child, even taking you all through this level of conflict, is a gift that he's giving you. Because oftentimes, the real argument that we have when we're raising children is not about the child. It's really about two childhoods colliding, your childhood and his childhood. You know, we all walk into marriage carrying our own script from our own family of origin and how things should be done. And we either walk in enacting it or we walk in rebelling against it.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  And so we're not really fighting or navigating, you know, bedtime strategies. We're really fighting against two histories. And to say it plainly, you know, we're parenting our own wounds. I want you all to see this as a gift because it's going to allow you to talk through some of your histories and some of your stuff that you're bringing into the marriage that is now showing up differently because now this human is involved.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Oh, that was a good answer.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  I felt that one too. I really felt that one. Can I offer one thing that I've, one thing I heard from a dad a few years ago, and I really liked this, is they said, you know, rather than kind of like decide who does what, they gave themselves titles. So one parent was Secretary for Education. So they looked after everything to do with school. And one, one parent was Secretary of Finance. Secretary of Commerce is the person who does all the shopping. So they gave themselves these titles. So if there is kind of like Secretary of Bedtimes and you just decide like, hey, you know what? I'm Secretary of Bedtimes. I'm the kind of key decision maker as it comes to this. And I think like even, even that language, it just makes it a little bit playful and it kind of takes the sting out of it a little bit. But it does provide like this distinct kind of roles

• 19:38Speaker 03

  and responsibilities across different aspects of the household.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Co-opting immediately. That, that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing tonight. Absolutely.

• 19:46Speaker 04

  That was good.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  All right, let's recap what we talked about. Being a dad today can be a bit of a mixed bag. An increasing number of husbands and fathers enjoy being more involved in the home and in childcare than ever before. That's great, but those roles can also be particularly isolating and hard to manage when you have fewer role models to look to and less built-in community around the burden of those responsibilities. The more we continue to talk about these dynamics and our desire for them to change, the better off we'll all be. So if you're feeling starved for authentic connection or seeking to expand your emotional vocabulary, know that you are not the only dad by far. Your people are out there and they want to talk to you, too. One place to start?

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Kevin created IRL meetup groups in a bunch of different cities through his online community, Modern Fatherhood. Finally, remember to take each day at a time. We all bring our own scripts from our pasts, our families, our parents, our dads, into our own parenting styles. And then we either enact them or push against them. So good on you for taking the time to have a think today about which path you're taking.

• 21:00Marielle Segarra?

  That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, talking with David Defoe and Kevin Maguire. Happy Father's Day. A special thanks to dads Rob Teron, Andres Alva Cardenas, and Josh Babin for contributing their thoughts and questions to this story. And to all the husbands and dads who wrote to us about the mental load. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the episode, too. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. It was edited by Brent Bachman. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib, and our visuals editor is CJ Riegelon. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from Peter Elena. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 21:50Speaker 05

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