Pod Insights Life Kit Plus How to talk about death and dying About this episode Death can be an uncomfortable and scary topic. But J. S. Park, a hospital chaplain and author of As Long as You Need: Permission to Grieve, says talking about it can help us prepare for and process death — our own and those we love. On this episode of Life Kit, Park shares how to support someone who’s dying, what death can look like, and how to consider death without obsession or fear.
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0:19 Marielle Segarra? You're listening to Life Kit.
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1:28 Marielle Segarra? About seven years ago, I was in Italy, wandering around this gorgeous, small town by the sea. And I desperately had to pee, so I popped into a church, thinking, they'll probably have a public restroom. There was a sign identifying it as La Chiesa del Purgatorio. I quickly found out what that meant. This was a church devoted to the souls in purgatory, which is a concept in Catholicism where you're not in hell, but you're not in heaven yet either. The theme, to me, though, really screamed death. Immediately upon entering, I walked past these glass cases. Inside were decomposing bodies, fully dressed and standing up as if in greeting. One was the body of a child.
2:12 Marielle Segarra? I froze, fixated on the bodies. Were those real? They were. I felt a familiar fear well up in my chest and beelined it out of there. The rest of the day and night, I went into an existential spin. Seeing death so starkly presented, so unavoidable, it reminded me that one day I would be a rotting corpse. And first, I'd have to die, which sounds like a terrible experience. I know we all know this, but I try not to think about it. I was never taught how to think about it in a way that didn't unravel me. In America, we don't like to talk about dying. And when we do, it's sanitized.
2:55 Speaker 02 I think the Hollywood aesthetic and what dying looks like in entertainment does a disservice to what the dying process is really like.
3:06 Marielle Segarra? This is J.S. Park. That's his pen name. He's a hospital chaplain at Tampa General Hospital.
3:11 Speaker 02 The joke that I make is that I'm a cross between a priest and a therapist. So I'm a therapriest.
3:16 Marielle Segarra? As a chaplain, he prays with families. And he also does some of the same things as a social worker. He offers crisis assistance and helps them understand what's coming.
3:25 Speaker 02 The thing I hear a lot is, I wish someone had just told me. I wish someone had prepared me for this, what it would be like to see my father die, what it would be like to make this decision for my mother, that it's OK if they're no longer on life support. It's OK if I allow them to pass peacefully without all these resuscitation efforts and pushing on the chest. If I just give them some dignity. Because amidst all the horror of what dying looks like, we can still confer some dignity to dying.
3:54 Marielle Segarra? On this episode of Life Kit, what to know and how to talk about dying. We'll touch on the dying process, what it can look like, especially at a hospital, how you can show yourself love if you know you're going to die soon, and how you can support someone who's dying. We'll also talk about how you can start considering this topic without obsessing about it. And look, death is clearly an uncomfortable topic for me, but I learned a lot from this conversation. And it was kind of a relief to say this stuff out loud.
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5:48 Marielle Segarra? I'd love to zero in specifically on dying and the dying process with you today. You know, we all die, but the dying process, nobody wants to talk about that.
6:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:03 Marielle Segarra? Why do you think that is?
6:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, you know, dying is scary. This particular thing happens with my patients and their families where someone is facing a hard diagnosis. They've just been told something really tough. And then a family member or even a healthcare worker will jump in and say, oh, God's got it, or this happened for a reason, or, you know, don't ask for a lighter load, get a stronger spine, everything will be all right, don't cry, that sort of thing. And I think early on as a chaplain, it used to enrage me when I heard those things. Clichés, platitudes, one-liners, the spiritual bypassing.
6:50 Speaker 02 Because they were completely glossing over this person's pain, their suffering, their illness, their injury, their fear. And over time, I'm still enraged by it. It still makes me angry. But I feel something else at the same time now. When I see that person saying that, when I hear their words, underneath it, what I see is almost like this existential panic, that now the entire room is faced with their frailty and mortality. So it's a way of self-soothing. And so in addition to being mad at those one-liners, I also feel maybe a compassion
7:32 Speaker 02 or an understanding that the reason they're saying this is this is their sort of initial, maybe misinformed way of processing and coping with the terror of dying.
7:45 Marielle Segarra? I was visiting a family friend in the hospital this summer. She was dying and she was hooked up to a lot of machines. And her color was different, like she was like yellow. And I was afraid at first to touch her. You know, like I didn't know if I would hurt her, if she, her skin would be really sensitive or if she was even, she wasn't really conscious, like fully conscious at all, like she was sedated. But I think she could feel some things, but she couldn't communicate with us. So I was like, I don't want to be like touching someone who can't move their body or tell you they don't want you to touch them. But also I want to comfort her, you know, and show affection.
8:30 Marielle Segarra? And I felt very unprepared for that moment.
8:36 Speaker 02 Yeah. For one, I'm so sorry to hear that about that loss.
8:41 Marielle Segarra? Thanks.
8:41 Speaker 02 The shock of dying is made doubly painful when we also see the shock of what dying really looks like, what it does to a body. And so when we get family in the waiting room, I'll go to the family and usually what I'll say is,
8:57 Speaker 02 Your family member will look a little differently than the last time you saw them. They're still attached to some equipment. I just wanted you to know that they will look different. And it's okay if you decide not to see them right now. Are you ready to go? And you know, sometimes they do refuse. But what I've noticed is when I pass that on, when I tell them they'll look differently, when I try to prepare them for the shock of them seeing their loved one, because maybe they just saw them that morning, talking completely okay. And now they're laying sideways, or they're intubated, or they're injured. What I notice is those family members in that waiting room, when other family starts coming,
9:41 Speaker 02 the people in the waiting room will tell those who just arrived the thing that I told them. That sort of gracious disclaimer, saying, hey, I just want you to know, you know, so and so, our loved one, they're gonna look different. It's okay if you don't see them. And I noticed that softness is passed on. Just that little bit of disclaimer, just that little bit of language and cushioning and tenderness around it. And so, some of that, I wish we had that education, that sort of compassion that's passed on, because it does help.
10:13 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway one, the dying process is often painful. And for many of us, it'll also be shocking to witness or experience ourselves, because this is not a topic we tend to talk about until we have to. If you find yourself in a situation where someone close to you is dying, say at a hospital, you can ask others who've seen your loved one what you can expect when you walk in the room. Is the person hooked up to machines? In what ways do they look different? Will they be conscious? And if you've been in the room already, you can offer this to your friends and family. For anyone who's listening to this, I wonder if you could give them... A starting point for what to expect if they have a loved one who is dying.
10:58 Marielle Segarra? Like what dying looks like, they might expect their family member to look like, the smells that they might smell, the way their skin might feel, the reality of that situation.
11:10 Speaker 02 I think one of the things that families are shocked by is the sound of the breathing and almost sounds like this person is hurting. So when someone is being intubated, when there's surgery, when they're being given medicine, people, whether they're aware of it or not, they'll fight a lot of the things that are happening. We try to prepare people for, you know, your loved one is breathing, they can't breathe for themselves, that's why they're intubated. But they may be shivering or shaking and we're giving them medication to help with that. And so at least a starting point is to talk about how resilient the body is and pushes back all these medical measures.
11:53 Speaker 02 And so even agonal breathing, those last breaths that a body takes, it sounds like gasping because it is. This body is still trying to live even as it's dying and it's trying to pull in as much oxygen as it can to keep living, even though that person is dying. But I say all that to say, I hope anyone hearing this, if you see your loved one in the hospital and they're intubated or they're getting a procedure, it's natural that they would want to fight that. It's natural that they would want to push back because the body is defending itself. And I think that there's a guilt that comes up because so many families see that and think, oh my gosh, this is hurting them.
12:37 Speaker 02 Should I keep doing this? And I think that's a voice worth listening to. Sometimes it does mean, yes, we want this person to be comfortable, we should stop. And at the same time, those interventions, it's going to look ugly. It's going to look really brutal.
12:53 Marielle Segarra? What about even beyond the medical interventions? Just the, the process of someone dying, even if they don't have any real, like they're not getting intubated or they're not trying to resuscitate them. Or, you know, it's the very final stages. I, I just don't think a lot of us have seen that. We don't, we haven't seen it until we have.
13:15 Speaker 02 Of course, yeah. Yeah, you know, bodies are meant to move and there's a certain level of hygiene that we're used to. And when a body is in a hospital for hours, days, weeks, that person can't take a shower. They can't keep up with their hygiene, the lack of exercise. If you see a loved one that you haven't seen in a long time and they've been in the hospital for a little while, even just a little while, there will be a certain amount of what looks like deterioration and just an aging and just a lot of damage to that person's body. And I think it's almost like your body is trying on death before it dies.
13:59 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway two, if your loved one is dying, particularly in the hospital, they may not have showered for several days. You'll likely notice them deteriorating and that's to be expected. Towards the very end, you might see them taking long labored breaths, which is awful to witness because we want to help our loved ones and support them so they can get better. But at some point, we all do die and we have to surrender in that way to realize that the best thing we can do for them is make sure they're not in pain and try to show them that we love them.
14:33 Marielle Segarra? So given the reality of it, if you are someone who is dying or going to, knows that you're going to die soon, what are some ways that you can show yourself love and support?
14:46 Speaker 02 So a lot of patients, there's quite a few who feel ashamed to call their own family or friends because they're aware of what they look like. They're aware of what's happening to their body. They're aware that they maybe haven't showered in a few days or a few weeks. They're not at their quote unquote best. And so. At the same time, what makes such a big difference in our dying and our injury and our illness is community, is having people. And a way that I know that I can love myself is to give myself permission to be seen by the people who love me and by the people that I love. And it's that love that can carry me through the vulnerability of that very naked and
15:29 Speaker 02 difficult process of injury, illness, and dying. And so if I'm at my deathbed, a way that I can love myself is to allow myself to be loved. You know, one of the things that we see is patients, their skin getting so dry, lips getting cracked. And I remember one patient saying, "Look, I've seen my mom die, and she just looks so thirsty. Can you tell my family, one of my last wishes is if I'm not awake and alert anymore, can you just tell them to keep putting chapstick on my lips? I don't want to die with dry lips." And like, that's such a reasonable request, you know?
16:05 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway three: When it's your time, if you know you're dying, try to allow people to show up for you. You might feel ashamed of how you look, you might not want them to see you like this, but there are people who can hold you while you make this transition. That could be family or friends, and you can also see if your insurance covers hospice care. That'll pull together a team of nurses, doctors, social workers, spiritual advisors, and volunteers who can support you. If you are at the hospital, you can also ask if they have a chaplain or any other resources. And you might have requests, like, "Please brush my hair," or "Bring my softest pajamas," or "Bring the cat," or "Bring me lots of chocolate." Let your people know what you want. You are allowed to ask for these things.
16:50 Marielle Segarra? We'll have more with J.S. Park after the break.
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17:48 Marielle Segarra? All right, we're back with Life Kit. I've been talking about the dying process with hospital chaplain J S Park. What are some ways that friends and family can support someone who's dying?
18:02 Speaker 02 So each of us, I believe, we know the people that we love. And everybody needs differently. And so for some people who, let's say they've lost a loved one, they may want to just have a night off and go out to the movies and get something to eat. Or they may want to just have a night in and do nothing. They may need somebody to wash all their dishes and vacuum the house. Or they may need someone just to sit there with them and hear the whole story about their loved one who died. And so everyone has a specific way in which they will be emotionally tended to and which they will feel spiritually filled and seen.
18:42 Speaker 02 I think the important thing is, is that we don't burden a person who's hurting with something that we think that they're going to need or by asking so many different questions and almost interrogating them. The text that I feel most bothered by is like, you know, "Hey, if you need anything, let me know," you know? Or even like, you know, "Hey, how are you doing?" I'm like, "I've told this story 50 times," you know?
19:09 Marielle Segarra? Yeah.
19:10 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it's like putting a burden on me to have to try to appease this person's curiosity. But if someone texts me and they're like, "Hey, I can bring you dinner Tuesday or Thursday at 6 o'clock. Here's the menu, you know, three different things you can pick from." That, for me, is like what I like, you know?
19:26 Marielle Segarra? Yeah.
19:27 Speaker 02 I'm like, "Cool, all right, I can do Thursday, bring it here." And they're like, "Do you want drop off or you want me to come in?" And it's like, "Drop off, you know, you don't have to come in at all," you know?
19:35 Marielle Segarra? Yeah.
19:36 Speaker 02 But yeah, everybody's got something different that they need. And I think if we tune in and really listen, we'll know what that is.
19:43 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway four, we've talked about this one on the show before. When someone is sick or dying, try to lift the burden of everyday decisions. If you want to help, make an offer. Hey, I can bring over food, or come over and read to you, or come to the hospital and tell you about the latest drama at work, or rub your back. You know, think about what skills and resources you have, but also who this person is and what they might appreciate. For instance, you're only going to tell them about your work drama if that's something that they would find amusing or comforting. What are some ways to get more exposure, or to start thinking about dying and death, without obsessing about it? And I think with the hope of helping you talk to someone who is in that situation.
20:30 Speaker 02 I mean, all of us are eventually going to have to start making decisions as we lose autonomy, as we age, or if we succumb to illness and injury. What do I want to do with all my stuff? What are decisions I want made for my own body? You know, like chaplains, we do, in the hospital that I'm at, we assist with advanced directives, which is, you pick a decision maker for you in the case you can't make a decision anymore for yourself, and a living will, which is, what are your wishes if you, God forbid, ever end up on life support? And when I go through these documents, most of my patients, they've never had to talk about this before. And so I think it's important that we confront death in a way about, well, what are the
21:13 Speaker 02 decisions that I would want to be made for me if I can't? How would I want to die if I end up in a hospital or under a care team? I've had patients write in their living will, like, can you put pictures of my family all around me as I'm dying? Can you have my dog come in to say goodbye? I want my dog at least to know that I'm dying. Can I have all my utensils from home in my room so I can eat my last meals with my utensils? You know, these little moments of autonomy are what brings some sort of comfort and consolation in death, and that affords some dignity for us. And so I think it's important to start having those discussions sooner than later.
21:52 Marielle Segarra? Let's talk about conversations while a person is dying. Like when they have maybe a week left or a few days left. Sometimes, I think, in the movies in particular, they show these big moments where you go and you make amends with somebody or you just like have that conversation. You're finally able to talk to your father in the way you never could. Or whatever it is, you're at their bedside. And I think there might be pressure to have a moment like that or an expectation that you'll get a moment like that. But is that likely?
22:26 Speaker 02 So it is so rare, in fact, to know that you're having a last conversation with someone where both of you are awake and aware. It is so rare to have that sort of Hollywood momentous like montage of two people talking and this is the last word and then I die, you know? People, as they're dying, they can be kept alive by life support, but they're no longer awake and aware, they're no longer conscious. But still, even if it's one-sided, you know, my, one of my best friends, John, died six years ago in the hospital where I work on my assigned floor. And he was about my age.
23:11 Speaker 02 And, you know, I, I didn't know if he could hear me or not, but I still, I still spoke to him and talked to him about my day. And I want to believe that he heard everything I had to say. And so that was my final conversation with him. And I do a thing as a chaplain where if the family's gathered around a deathbed and this person is dying, usually a dying person, they're no longer awake and alert. They can no longer communicate. But I'll ask this family, you know, if they want me to do a prayer or, you know, it's like a final last rites type of thing. And what I always ask is, before I pray, can you tell me what your loved one is like?
23:56 Speaker 02 And they'll all go around the room sharing. And when they share, my hope is that this person who's dying gets to hear all the loving ways in which their family is sharing about them. And then in the prayer, I weave almost like a tapestry of all the things that they've said, thanking God for all the ways that God made this person so that they could have these amazing encounters in their lifetime with them. And I hope that my patient who's dying gets to hear that. And so, yeah, even if they can't respond, I think it's still important that as they're dying, we can still tell them everything we always wanted to.
24:34 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway five, you might hope that you'll get a final moment to say goodbye to the people you love. But even if someone doesn't die suddenly, even if they're dying slowly at the hospital, it's rare to know that your last conversation with someone is actually your last conversation. So for one thing, tell people how you feel about them now. If there's something you want to work through together, don't wait. Also, though, if your loved one is in a hospital bed, sedated, unable to speak, you can still speak kind words to them and hold their hand. We don't know how much they can hear or what they'll understand, but it doesn't hurt.
25:13 Marielle Segarra? J S, thank you so much for this conversation.
25:15 Speaker 02 Thank you.
25:18 Marielle Segarra? All right, it's time for a recap.
25:21 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway one, the dying process is often painful. And for many of us, it'll also be shocking to witness or experience because this is not a topic we tend to talk about until we have to. If you're visiting someone who's dying, try to see what information you can get about their current condition before you walk in. Takeaway two, if your loved one is dying, be prepared for what the process looks like. You might notice changes in their skin color, their breathing, and their level of awareness. They may also get agitated, among other things. Takeaway three, when it's your time, if you know you're dying, try to allow people to show up for you and ask for what you want, like having family photos around you or having your pet there.
26:05 Marielle Segarra? Takeaway four, think about what specific skills and help you can offer to your dying loved one. A distraction with good gossip, company while watching old movies, taking care of their dog?
26:19 Marielle Segarra? And takeaway five: final conversations with a loved one who's dying are so rarely like what we see in the movies. But even if someone is sedated or they can't really talk, you can still tell them you love them. And this is a good reminder to tell the people in your life that you love them before this moment arrives.
26:38 Marielle Segarra? That's our show. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on how to talk to kids about death and another on managing your stress around the holidays. Also, we love hearing from you, so if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at [email protected] . This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malaga Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Lennon Sherburne, Margaret Serino, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from David Greenberg. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.
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