Pod Insights Life Kit Plus How to maintain emotional intimacy in long-term relationships About this episode When it comes to relationships, being comfortable is not necessarily the same as sharing emotional intimacy. But if you're in a long-term relationship, how do you maintain closeness over time? In this episode of Life Kit, psychologist James Cordova shares tips on how to build emotional intimacy into your daily life.
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1:21 Marielle Segarra? You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.
1:29 Marielle Segarra? Okay, if you have a romantic partner, I want you to imagine an illustrated version of you and them, one that you might see on the front of a greeting card. Okay, now also imagine your animals. What are you? Two sweet little bears in a cuddle pile? Delicate swans, locking necks? A couple of otters holding hands? Trick question: you're porcupines. Hee hee.
1:54 Speaker 02 One of the fundamental challenges at the heart of a long-term intimate relationship
2:00 Speaker 02 Is what we call the porcupine's dilemma.
2:04 Marielle Segarra? This is James Cordova, a professor of psychology at Clark University. He has spent his career researching intimacy and romantic relationships. So he says, picture a couple of porcupines in love.
2:15 Speaker 02 Trying to get in there where it's warm and snuggly and close and connected. And they just happen to be porcupines.
2:23 Marielle Segarra? As in, covered from top to bottom in sharp, painful armor that helps to protect their soft little bodies.
2:30 Speaker 02 So when you get inside of quill's distance, which is where you want to be, that's where all the good snuggling happens, right? You're also really exposed to each other's quills.
2:39 Marielle Segarra? Maybe on some days, those spikes look like sarcasm or anger or defensiveness. Maybe you didn't mean to snap at your partner when you came home from work, but you were in a bad mood. Or maybe they absolutely meant to poke your soft spot when they made that joke at dinner.
2:53 Speaker 02 The closer we are to each other, the more vulnerable we are to each other. The more frequently, mostly inadvertently, mostly by accident, we're going to cause each other a certain amount of pain. Right? We frustrate each other. We might disappoint each other. All of those are these little quill moments, right?
3:12 Marielle Segarra? And that's why the work of maintaining intimacy is.
3:15 Speaker 02 It's not for the faint of heart.
3:18 Marielle Segarra? It requires ongoing effort and vulnerability. And that can be hard and scary, but also so fulfilling. On this episode, Life Kit reporter Andy Tagel talks with James about how to build and maintain emotional intimacy in your romantic relationship. They'll talk about how to infuse your daily routine with intimate moments, how to spot when it's time for a relationship reset, and how to know the difference between being intimate and being comfortable. That's after the break.
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5:10 Speaker 06 Today, we're here to talk about intimacy in our romantic relationships. When you're in a long-term relationship especially, it's easy to feel, as you say, comfortable and stable. You're saying that's not the same thing as emotional intimacy. Why not?
5:22 Speaker 02 I was just talking with somebody when I was doing supervision earlier today, and we were talking about how couples often find their way into a relationship with each other where they're more orbiting each other than really interwoven with each other. It's a little bit like the earth and the sun. We find this distance that is close, but not too close. It's comfortable, it's predictable, it has a stability to it, but it doesn't have the vibrancy and the vitality of a truly intimate relationship.
5:58 Speaker 06 Where you can be living your life together, but not be an intimate relationship.
6:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, one of the things that we found in our research is, you know, when we do the relationship checkup with folks, which is like the relationship health equivalent of your regular dental health checkup or your regular physical health checkup. When we do relationship health checkups with folks, one of the things that we ask them about is to tell us what the strengths are, the biggest strengths in their relationship are, and to rank order those. So they're able to tell us what their most significant strengths are. And for a lot of couples, the things that they identify as their most significant strengths are things that have nothing to do with emotional connection. Like, we're really good at raising our kids together. We're good at managing our finances.
6:44 Speaker 02 We're good at, like, being really supportive of each other's independent activity. And when we see that cluster of strengths, that tells us this couple has really found their way into that comfortable distance, where we're orbiting each other, we're running the business of a small family together, but we're not, we don't really trust each other with our tenderest parts.
7:11 Speaker 07 Takeaway one. Being close and comfortable is not necessarily the same as sharing emotional intimacy. Do you have a romantic relationship? Or just a roommate? Is that the place you want to be? According to James, simply making time and space is one of the biggest barriers to everyday intimacy. And bridging that gap starts by understanding where you're at and where your relationship might need some watering.
7:40 Speaker 07 You say that attention is the most basic form of love in your book. Why is that?
7:44 Speaker 02 So whatever we're giving attention to is the thing that we're nurturing, the thing that we're growing in our lives, right? And so it is a form of love. If we're really giving a lot of our attention to our work, you know, we're nurturing, we're growing, we're cultivating the things that we do professionally. And it is a kind of love. And when we're, certainly when we're giving each other that attention, right? We're cultivating, we're watering, we're nurturing, we're growing that connection between the two of us, right? The challenge is that attention is a very narrow beam. We only have so much of it.
8:29 Speaker 02 And we can't be paying attention to everything at the same time. We can pay attention to like one thing at a time. And so the place where relationships can really suffer is from the neglect of our attention. And really, one of the simplest things that we can do to begin to nurture connection and intimacy and love is to bring very deliberately, more mindfully, that quality of loving attention to each other.
9:03 Speaker 07 I'm glad you said mindful, because I know attention is a principle of mindfulness, right? Can you explain to me how mindfulness plays a role in intimacy?
9:11 Speaker 02 So mindfulness really just means that we are paying attention on purpose with some intention. I sort of think about like the lived experience of being mindful is like savoring. If you're really paying attention to something, it has a quality of savoring to it. And what we know from our research, what we know from our own experience, is that when we are being mindfully attentive to what we're eating, what we're touching, what we're looking at, when we're mindfully attentive to the person that we're with, that that quality of savoring comes across.
9:53 Speaker 02 And it enhances both our own experience of the sort of vividness, the vitality of that connection, of that interaction with the other person. And it's contagious, right? Like, we know, we can tell when we're being mindfully attentive to, and we can also tell when we're not.
10:16 Speaker 07 Takeaway two. Pay attention to your partner on purpose. Take note of his outfit, her hair, their mood, the playlist they put on as they cook dinner. Maybe you'll notice something new and surprising. Maybe you'll appreciate the thing you've always loved just a little bit more. Or if this exercise feels difficult, that's useful information, too. Remember how James says we're all porcupines? If you're feeling a lack of intimate connection, he says, sometimes that might be because you're trying to avoid getting poked.
10:50 Speaker 02 When our relationships start to get a little complicated, when we've got that area of conflict that just keeps coming up in a particularly frustrating or painful way, there are so many other things that call to us. Like work. You know, I can go to work a little earlier. I can stay a little later. There's the dog. There's the TV. There's my phone. There's the lawn that needs to be mowed. There's all these things that feel like, oh, well, this needs my attention. And again, I think that can happen at a really, almost unconscious level. I call it, we follow the path of least emotional resistance. I'm going to go in the direction of the thing that's the least emotionally complicated.
11:36 Speaker 07 Conflict, of course, doesn't often go hand in hand with deep connection. At least when you're in the thick of it. And there are an endless number of reasons why you might be experiencing friction or frustration with your partner.
11:50 Speaker 02 I think the big mistake that people make is trying to solve the unsolvable points of friction. Like, we find our problems and we just keep trying to solve the problem. Because usually what we're trying to do is get our partner to change. Like, if you change, then this problem will go away. And of course, our partner's going, well, actually, I was thinking, if you changed, then this problem would go away. And the mistake that's inherent in there is that
12:21 Speaker 02 almost always, that most significant area of friction in the relationship is the arrow is actually pointing back toward each of our most deepest vulnerability. We're trying to solve a problem like it's an emotional math equation. And that actually ends up...
12:42 Speaker 02 Creating more distance?
12:44 Speaker 07 One solution that might be able to help bring you back to intimacy quicker is spotting the difference between solvable versus perpetual problems. This is an idea from relationship researcher John Gottman. Solvable problems in relationships are situational and specific. They're one-offs, like, who's going to get the car fixed? What are we going to eat for dinner? Why is that always the question? Perpetual problems, on the other hand, center on fundamental differences in personality or outlook or lifestyle. They're not easily solved, and so you keep coming back to them. As in, how should money be saved? Or, what does perfect leisure time look like?
13:24 Speaker 02 Introverts and extroverts find each other irresistible and so often end up in relationships with each other and don't really know that they're going to run into this issue until they run into this issue, right? Like, what are we going to do on a Friday night? I'm tired, I want to socialize. I'm tired, I want to not see anybody else but maybe you.
13:48 Speaker 07 It's the perpetual problems that lead to the majority of relationship issues. So, take away three, name it to tame it. Labeling your perpetual patterns can help you ease up on conflict, collaborate, and come back to connection.
14:05 Speaker 02 You know, one of the things that we've, that we've found in our research is that when couples are running into these sorts of perpetual patterns in their relationship, more often than not, they present a sort of fish and water problem. Like, the pattern is having a really strong effect on the relationship, but they can't see it, they just keep enacting it. That moment when you can see it and call it something, you know, like, we're doing our introvert-extrovert dance, right? Or, we're doing our spender-saver thing, right? Or, we're doing our porcupine-turtle thing. Whenever you can label a pattern, when you can label a relational habit, it changes it.
14:48 Speaker 02 And the better we are at being able to call a pattern out in that kind of friendly way, the less susceptible we are to the pattern itself. What we found in our research is that couples who can name their pattern engage in the pattern less.
15:03 Speaker 07 When Life Kit returns, how to build in a daily practice of building emotional intimacy.
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16:06 Speaker 07 Okay, let's get right into our next takeaway. Takeaway four. To create an environment where your intimacy can thrive, build it into your daily routine. You don't need a whole lot of time, just a few minutes of dedicated attention and curiosity for your partner.
16:21 Speaker 02 What we've discovered in the research is that it's the regularity of it, that we can, we can create these sorts of daily rituals of connection in our relationship. And they don't have to take forever. They can be five, 10 minutes here and there. That are that turning toward, right? So it can be just a few minutes in the morning where the thing that's most important to me is being curious about my partner. The thing that's most important to me is making sure that my partner feels seen and cared about. Cause that's really what we're all longing for in our relationships. All that I really want is for my partner to see me, to know me, right?
17:06 Speaker 02 And to care. She doesn't necessarily have to solve my problems. She doesn't necessarily have to do anything magical. If I know that she knows what's going on in my life and she cares, that's enough. You know, I think that the key is just. I'm gonna spend five minutes in the morning, being really curious about my partner. What's going on for you today? What's in your heart? What's on your mind? What's on your schedule? And maybe five more minutes in the middle of the day, and five minutes at the end of the day. Like, it doesn't have to be forever, but it has to be that deep, dedicated, attention is the most basic form of love, quality of attention, that is, I just wanna know you.
17:50 Speaker 02 And I want you to know that I see you, I'm curious about you, and I care.
17:56 Speaker 06 Hmm, and just conversation, like, just like, five minutes over your coffee in the morning? Like, what's going on with you?
18:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. This is what's going on for me. You know, this is what's popping around in my head, what's popping around in your head. And the more particular things, like, what's on your agenda for today? What's the thing that you're most eager about today? What's the thing that you're, like, most dreading today? You know, what's the thing that you're most grateful for? What's the thing that you wish would go away? I kinda wanna get a heads up on what are gonna be the highlights and what are gonna be the lowlights, so that I can check up on it later, you know? So, how'd that highlight go? Was it actually a highlight, or was it a no-light, right? And what about the thing that you were really worried about? How did that thing go? So that, you know, I'm constantly carrying, you know, my partner's experience
18:47 Speaker 02 in my head and in my heart. And feeling like, I also know that when I'm going into this meeting, that I'm like, oh my god, I don't wanna be in this meeting. I know that my partner knows that I had this meeting today. And she's kinda there with me, and she's gonna ask me about it later. And I know that she cares about, like, how this is for me, even if nobody else does.
19:09 Speaker 06 It sounds like you're letting your partner in to your inner world, and vice versa.
19:13 Speaker 02 Right.
19:14 Speaker 06 But does intimacy, like, a daily practice of intimacy, does it always require conversation? Are there other ways to practice that intimacy with each other? You know, I'm thinking, like, you know, not everybody's a big sharer, not everybody always has time or room for that conversation. Are there other ways to foster intimacy?
19:31 Speaker 02 There are, and I think, you know, part of the way that I very deliberately constructed the way that I think about intimacy, so that it doesn't always involve... Deep conversation. A lot of it is, you know, we get to know each other through our sort of daily habits, our sort of patterns, you know, we start to recognize each other's rhythms, right? Like, you can tell your partner's tired and stressed. They don't necessarily have to talk about being tired and stressed, you just know. So you bring them a cup of tea, you rub their shoulders, you rub their feet, right? There's all these ways that we can, in the absence of words, show the other person that I see you and I care.
20:13 Speaker 02 You know, a lot of that is physical, a lot of that, you know, is just like physical affection, presence, you know, these sorts of like offerings. You know, like, if you've had a particularly challenging day, this might be a good day for one of your favorite movies, right? We might not have to say anything about it, it's just like, hey, let's watch this movie tonight, right? And so part of that is like discovering that about each other. What is my path to that place that for you feels like you're a source of safety, you're a source of acceptance? And I can just be my grumpy self and know that you love me anyway.
20:53 Speaker 07 Takeaway five. Intimacy is often as imperfect as it is important. So keep at it. We'll leave you with some final wisdom from James to help.
21:04 Speaker 02 I think maybe it's three things. It's grace, so that we're giving ourselves and each other just a lot of space to be messy and to get it wrong and to just miscommunicate, to say it the wrong way, to use the wrong word, to think it was Wednesday when it was actually Thursday. So there's grace. And then maybe the most important element is just unrelenting kindness, which is like kindness towards ourselves and our own dumpster fire and kindness towards our partner, even when they're misbehaving. And then maybe finally in there again is that kind of loving curiosity.
21:47 Speaker 02 Like, I think one of the most powerful practices that we can engage in with our partner is to prioritize on a regular basis, understanding over being understood.
22:01 Speaker 02 And I think that our instinct is to really fight to be understood and to kind of forget about the seeking to understand part. And if we can flip that regularly, then a lot of the things that otherwise seem like unresolvable just start to resolve themselves. So grace, kindness, and curiosity.
22:29 Speaker 06 I think we could all use some more of that. That sounds lovely. I'll take an order. I'll take, yeah, I'll take an order for all three of those things. Thank you, James. That's lovely. James Cordova, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.
22:39 Speaker 02 Absolutely. Thank you, Andy.
22:42 Speaker 07 Let's recap, lovers. Takeaway one. Being comfortable is not the same as being emotionally intimate. Which one are you? Takeaway two. Practice paying attention to your partner on purpose. Their voice, or clothes, or taste, or cooking. What new something can you find to appreciate today? Takeaway three. Conflict often gets in the way of intimacy. One way to more easily get back into connection is to understand when you're suffering a perpetual problem. Like doing your spender versus saver routine, or your introvert extrovert dance. Spotting the pattern can be the first step in helping you break your cycles. Takeaway four.
23:25 Speaker 07 Create a daily intimacy practice. It doesn't have to take long. Just a bit of dedicated time and attention focused solely on your partner. Have a few minutes of pillow talk in the morning. Send him a joke and a meme over lunch, or give her a foot rub at the end of the day. Finally, takeaway five. Maintaining intimacy is hard work. So whenever possible, grant yourself and your partner some grace, some unrelenting kindness, and loving curiosity.
23:57 Marielle Segarra? That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle. Hey, you're a fan of Life Kit, right? Well, don't keep us a secret. Why don't you tell a friend about us? Send them an episode you think they'd like. And thank you for helping spread the word about Life Kit. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino, Sylvie Douglas, and Lennon Sherburne. Engineering support comes from Stacy Abbott. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thank you for listening.
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