Pod Insights Life Kit Plus How to work with your social anxiety About this episode It's easy to spiral and feel anxious when you're on a first date, at your office holiday party or heading to your high school reunion. The stakes feel high and you want to make a good impression. But social anxiety can get in the way of connection, fun and feeling good. In this episode, we give you tools to survive small talk, practice social courage and embrace the awkward.
Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en
Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit
Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit
See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.
NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori with the Halo Essential Wide-Like Pant. Receive 20% off your first purchase at viori.com/NPR on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.
0:19 Marielle Segarra? You're listening to Life Kit.
0:22 Marielle Segarra? From NPR. Hey, it's Marielle. I'd love for you to join me on an uncomfortable journey. We're going to your office holiday party, or your high school reunion, or that dating mixer that you bought a ticket to, but now that it's getting closer on the calendar, you'd rather do literally anything else. Like, I'm talking waiting in line at the DMV, or getting Root Canal. At least then you wouldn't have to talk to people. The dread creeps up, and you find your heart racing just thinking about going to this thing.
0:51 Speaker 02 It's kind of like playing a video game on the hard setting, where your mind, it sees more threats in the environment.
1:01 Marielle Segarra? But rather than dodging a bunch of fireballs or Pac-Man ghosts, the imposing threat is failure or embarrassment. Ali Matu is a clinical psychologist, and he says most of us have experienced this nervous energy during a social event, an energy that can make us think we're mind-readers.
1:17 Speaker 02 Where you start to think you know how people are seeing you, you start to believe that you know how people are thinking about you, and they're judging you. They don't think you're doing a good job.
1:32 Marielle Segarra? Because when the stakes are high, or the social terrain is unfamiliar, it's easy to spiral.
1:36 Speaker 02 Where you're starting to imagine what's going to happen, and you're imagining things are going to go badly.
1:41 Marielle Segarra? All types of people feel anxious in social settings. The shy guy in class who has to give a big presentation, the person who ruminates about a completely inconsequential text message, the one who panics when they have to send back a plate of food at a restaurant. In those moments, a lot of us want to just crawl into a hole.
1:58 Speaker 02 And you can't do that. What you need to do is rethink about social anxiety being more like this annoying friend. It's a friend that cares about you, that loves you, that also shows up at times where you don't want them to. And they have your best interests at heart.
2:16 Marielle Segarra? Even though it doesn't feel good, social anxiety, stripped down to its essence, can be a reminder that we need other people in our lives and that we all want to belong.
2:26 Speaker 02 So befriend your social anxiety. Don't try to kick it out of your life.
2:29 Marielle Segarra? On this episode of Life Kit, we're going to help you out with that. Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talks to Ali and another social anxiety specialist to give you tools for surviving small talk, for staying motivated before and after social interactions, and for embracing the awkwardness.
2:48 Speaker 00 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast.
3:08 Speaker 03 This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, the midterm elections are wrapping up and millions of people have already voted. We're taking one final check of the electoral pulse with a new NPR PBS News Marist Poll. It shows Democrats still poised to make gains, but also with some warning signs for just how many. We'll explain on the NPR Politics Podcast.
3:32 Speaker 04 Instead of scrolling mindlessly, engage mindfully with the NPR app. With a mix of on-demand news, stories from this station, and your favorite podcasts, you can relax without shutting off your brain. Download the NPR app today.
3:48 Speaker 05 Before we head into our tips and takeaways party, let's quickly get clear about what kind of social anxiety we're talking about. Because there are two different camps. The first camp is what we're going to be addressing in this episode. Those general, everyday feelings of anxiousness that we all feel from time to time in social settings. Like first dates, or job interviews, or office happy hours. Those are the places where we hope to lend a hand. The second is social anxiety disorder. And it's one of the most common anxiety disorders in the US. It affects about 13% of Americans. And there are a lot of treatment options available through trained professionals. If you're not sure which group you fall into, psychologist and professor Fallon Goodman might be able to help.
4:33 Speaker 05 She runs the Emotion and Resilience Lab at George Washington University. And she spent a lot of time researching social anxiety. She says there are a few criteria that may help define whether or not you might want to seek outside counsel or care for your social anxiety. The first-
4:48 Speaker 06 Is it interfering with the life that you want to live? So is social anxiety interfering with your ability to do your job? Is it interfering with relationships? Is it interfering with your ability to function, to go out and run errands? I think that's the most important thing.
5:04 Speaker 05 Fallon says, "The second thing you want to ask yourself is, how deeply does your anxiety affect you? Does it feel really bad, really often?"
5:13 Speaker 06 So this is the distress. Is it feeling like every day you're carrying around this bag of anxiety that's really weighing you down and making you feel uncomfortable in situations that ordinarily wouldn't?
5:26 Speaker 05 So, meeting new people, public presentations, big social gatherings. These are all commonplace areas for social anxiety to spike.
5:35 Speaker 06 Now, if you're feeling those similar levels of anxiety across interactions with family members, across interactions with coworkers and strangers, and across areas you're feeling that level of social anxiety, that might be a sign that we're moving from a relatively normal level of social anxiety to something that's more clinically significant.
5:55 Speaker 05 If any of that resonates, Fallon says, "It's important not to wait to seek help." Because just deciding to opt out of social activities now and then- Might not seem like that big a deal, but if you're constantly experiencing an intense fear of being scrutinized by others, it can have real ripple effects in nearly every area of your life.
6:16 Speaker 06 In our career, for instance, I might be socially anxious and so I am not doing things that would advance my career, whether it's speaking up at a meeting or taking a new position. If I have social anxiety, I'm not going to go on that date, even though I'm really, really lonely and I really want to find my person. If I have social anxiety, I might not join the softball league and I'm missing out on something that I get a lot of joy out and that feels good in my body. And so we stand to lose a lot.
6:44 Speaker 05 So now that we've made those lines clear, let's move on to what both camps have in common.
6:48 Speaker 06 The power of social relationships cannot be understated.
6:52 Speaker 05 So let's talk tools to deal with those general pre-party jitters.
6:58 Speaker 05 Takeaway one: Focus your social energy. Start small and keep building. So Fallon has this idea about social courage. As the name implies, it's the willingness to do what you want to do in your social life despite the presence of fear.
7:12 Speaker 06 Despite any level of anxiety, whether it's a 1 to a 10, you are doing the thing you want to do. And being courageous in doing that is knowing that it is worth the risk of any sort of negative consequence because it's something that you value.
7:31 Speaker 05 That sounds great on paper. And it's simple enough. Don't let your fears hold you back, right? But how do we get there exactly? Let's start by addressing that fear head on. Maybe what you're anxious about is a big social gathering just down the way. A family or a school reunion, say, with lots of people and lots of judgmental eyes. Maybe that fear is telling you, let's just stay home instead.
7:54 Speaker 06 The thing about anxiety is, in the short term, it feels really good not to encounter the thing you're anxious about.
8:01 Speaker 05 And Fallon says, actually, sometimes avoiding a social situation, like if you feel truly unsafe, maybe, or unvalued, can in fact be the best strategy. But you also gotta be honest with yourself. Flip the script in your mind and look for the upside, too.
8:17 Speaker 06 I think it's important to ask yourself, what are the costs of not going? What are the missed opportunities of not attending this event? Does that avoidance get in the way of things that are important to you and things that can really push you outside of your comfort zone in a way that's gonna move you closer to the person that you want to be?
8:34 Speaker 05 OK, so like, people might have thoughts about you if you show up to the reunion, sure. But is that your problem? Besides, if you go, you could also see your favorite teacher again or that faraway cousin you spent time with half a decade ago. Eat that favorite food. Maybe you'll get to reconnect with your old bestie. That all sounds pretty good. Now that we've decided the juice is worth the squeeze, let's work on building up that confidence and courage.
9:00 Speaker 06 What I would challenge everyone to do is, across areas, ask yourself, what do I need and what do I have?
9:07 Speaker 05 Think about your different social buckets. Your love life, the office, the neighborhood, your family. What comes easy and what needs work? Then, look for regular opportunities to get you from where you are to where you wanna be. That could mean starting really small, like choosing the cashier line instead of self-checkout to get in a little social interaction at the grocery store, complimenting a stranger's outfit, sending a spontaneous check-in text to an old, old friend. Or maybe just asking for help at the library. Then just keep building that social infrastructure into your calendar on a regular basis.
9:41 Speaker 06 It feels really effortful to make plans, to find a time to meet. So if I don't have social interactions built into my daily structure, let's say, in classes or at work, then I have to take time out of the other parts of my life to socialize. And I think this is where people can feel like it's not worth it.
10:01 Speaker 05 The more reps you get in, the more of a social callus you build and the more comfortable you can be with being uncomfortable.
10:08 Speaker 06 You know, the thing about social anxiety is we're fearing what is going to happen. Find one person on this planet who has not been rejected. We are rejected and judged all of the time. And so we are altering our behavior to try to prevent an outcome that's probably going to happen anyway.
10:27 Speaker 05 Because that cringe factor, that awkwardness, it comes with this territory.
10:34 Speaker 02 The goal is not to eliminate awkwardness from your life. The goal is to learn how to navigate awkwardness. Because everything you want, every connection you want, the friend you want to make, the person you want to date, the work opportunities you want to gain, they're all on the other side of awkwardness.
10:57 Speaker 05 Now that you've warmed up, you focused in, built up that social courage, it's time to move to the main event. Let's lay out some tools to help you go from anxious to courageous before, during, and after a social activity. Takeaway two: Before you go, make a game plan and be ready to embrace the awkward. All right, friend, it's reunion time. You've got your killer outfit on, you know where you're headed. Next up, to ease your anxiety up front, set a small, realistic goal for yourself.
11:30 Speaker 06 So if you're going to a happy hour, set something very specific. Introduce yourself to one person, talk to three people, ask two questions, something that you feel like you know whether or not you achieved it. You also want to make a game plan, and it's okay, by the way, if your game plan includes, "When and how am I getting out of here? What is my escape plan?" Have a plan so you feel a sense of certainty, so you give yourself some out if you want to leave, and that you know what you're getting yourself into.
12:00 Speaker 05 Another helpful pre-party task is to identify your biggest fear. Like, truly, what is the worst thing that could happen at this barbecue? If you show up to this club meeting, or networking hour, or volunteering session, what realistically could go wrong?
12:15 Speaker 06 Be specific. Are you fearful that you're gonna spill your wine on your shirt? Are you fearful that you're gonna stutter? Are you fearful that you're gonna say something stupid? Are you fearful you're gonna get fired? Identify your biggest fear. What will happen is, most of the time, the fear does not come true.
12:32 Speaker 05 Having small, concrete goals can help buoy you when you feel adrift in a conversation. And voicing your most outlandish fears ahead of time can make the real-life people in front of you seem not quite so scary. Then, if you have the option to bring a plus-one with you, that might not be a bad idea either. Just be sure to choose someone who will, you know, actually support you. Rather than just, say, socially silo you in one corner of the party with a chip bowl, or feed your anxieties by, for instance, pushing you into the center of the dance circle. Now, if you're off to socialize alone, good on you, friend. Ali says, again, don't forget, it is completely natural. It is on the agenda for it to be a little weird when you first meet someone.
13:16 Speaker 05 Repeat that to yourself like a mantra, if it helps.
13:19 Speaker 02 Every single social interaction has these lulls. My patients always call it, you know, awkward silences. And I'm fast to say, like, "It's not an awkward silence, it's just a silence." That is the price of connecting with someone. It's saying the wrong thing. It's messing up. It's mis-hearing someone. It's, things aren't connecting at first, but you stick with it, and you find out who are the people that you wanna connect with and have fun with, and you learn more. And who are the people that you don't really connect with? The only way to do that is by trying and experimenting. The cost of social interaction is awkwardness. Is cringe.
14:01 Speaker 05 Oh, and one last thing to note before you head out.
14:04 Speaker 06 We've all heard of liquid courage, where when we're at a social interaction, we might drink one, or two, or three drinks, and we feel a little bit less anxious.
14:14 Speaker 05 In the short term, of course, this can be really effective. Maybe you feel a little more confident, so you have more fun, meet a new friend, even strike up a new romance. Valen says, "If that's just a one-off situation, an isolated incident..."
14:28 Speaker 06 Sure, okay, but if that's going to be something that you rely on, that's increasingly problematic, where you feel like you can only have those good social interactions if you have some sort of substance like alcohol.
14:40 Speaker 05 In fact, social anxiety disorder is highly comorbid with both alcohol use disorder and depression. Not to mention, just physiologically speaking, alcohol itself can be a source of increased anxiety. No matter what's in your punchbowl, remember, it's probably not all going to be smooth sailing. But you'll be okay, either because you'll have a great time, or because you'll gain some new data you can use for the next go-round. So, take a few deep breaths, then take a few more. Whenever you're ready, remind yourself of your motivation one last time, and then when we get back from the break, let's head into our event, party people.
15:23 Speaker 07 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about how to make better decisions to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. This message comes from Mint Mobile. Ditch overpriced wireless and get premium wireless for less.
16:04 Speaker 07 Go to mintmobile.com/switch to see which plan works for you.
16:12 Speaker 05 Takeaway three: Do better during social events by moving the spotlight off of yourself. Valen says when we're trying to engage in conversation, our social anxiety can sometimes create this spotlight effect, where we feel like all the lights are shining brighter on us than anyone else in the room. We can get hyper self-aware.
16:30 Speaker 06 And I'm looking for things like eye contact and body language and the subtleties of the way you're talking to me and expressing yourself. I am more focused on me. How am I sounding? What am I saying? Am I acting foolish? Do I sound incompetent? Do I sound unintelligent?
16:46 Speaker 05 The trouble with this, of course, is when you're locked in on yourself and your performance of a conversation, instead of just actual conversation, it can become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
16:57 Speaker 06 And so the more socially anxious I am in a situation, the more likely it is that the thing I don't want, in this case rejection, is going to come true.
17:07 Speaker 05 Luckily, the fix can be pretty simple. Just take that great big spotlight and focus it on the person you're talking to instead. Maybe you came to the party with a few conversation topics in your back pocket, ready to go. If not, asking open-ended questions is one of the easiest ways to do that. Like, asking, "What do you like to do for fun?" can take a conversation a lot more places than... So, do you like video games? From there, one of Ali's favorite conversational tools is an improv skill called "yes and."
17:38 Speaker 02 Where you don't shut down with what the other person is saying, you build on it. And so the way that impacts social interaction is, "yes and" requires you to actually listen.
17:49 Speaker 05 So if you commit to building on whatever the person in front of you is saying, it can force you to be fully present in the conversation, rather than stuck in your own head.
17:58 Speaker 02 So if you use an open-ended question, "What do you like to do for fun?", and the person goes, "Oh, I like rock climbing." A lot of people then will be like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't know anything about it. What am I gonna say? What am I gonna say?" That social anxiety kicks up. "Yes and it." "Oh, rock climbing? Wow. Can you tell me more about that? I know nothing about rock climbing. What is that like? You know what people like to do? They like talking about the things that they like doing." And then that leads to a whole other conversation, right?
18:26 Speaker 05 It might seem like a simple strategy, but giving your conversation partner the opportunity to lead and then following along as they shine can go a long way.
18:36 Speaker 02 So many of us are trying to be interesting when the key to social interaction is actually to be interested in the other person.
18:48 Speaker 02 All of us are stuck in our own head and we're just really looking for someone who's actually going to be there and listen to us and give us their full attention. It's like, it is the greatest thing that you can do for someone is to give them your full attention.
19:04 Speaker 05 Now, when it comes to things to avoid, let's talk safety behaviors. Those things that we do in social settings to help us feel more secure, but actually probably increase our chances of being rejected.
19:15 Speaker 06 So a safety behavior could be, I'm not going to say very much. I'm not going to speak up. I'm going to take the safe route and fly under the radar and not offer my contributions because if I do, I might be rejected. People might think I'm stupid or unattractive or whatever your thing is. You're not going to be good enough in some way and so you don't say anything. Well, if you're not speaking up in a conversation, some people might think you're not interested in them. You're being cold. Maybe they think you're arrogant. Maybe they think you just don't want to be there.
19:44 Speaker 05 Another big safety behavior I bet the vast majority of us are guilty of these days? Looking at your phone. Like not even pretending to text or talk or do anything with it. Just looking.
19:56 Speaker 06 And then again, what are other people perceiving that as? You not being interested in getting to know them and they therefore might be more likely to reject you as a result.
20:05 Speaker 05 You might also be on the other side of the scale, like me, and prone to quelling your anxious energy by oversharing. Valen says, in general, disclosing things about yourself can create closeness. But like, try to read the room. You're trying to be social, not post your own podcast.
20:21 Speaker 06 If you're feeling that desire to talk about yourself, you can flip it and get the other person to start talking about themselves so that the vulnerability and the intimacy building is going both ways.
20:31 Speaker 05 Yes, and if you do that, hopefully you can't go too far astray. But either way, it's important to assess. That brings us to takeaway four. Debrief, then jump right back in.
20:44 Speaker 06 You want to first determine, did your biggest fear come true? If no, then you have more evidence that you can go into that type of interaction and it'd be okay. And if that thing did come true, then you can figure out how to deal with it. You can ask yourself, how did my life really change?
21:03 Speaker 05 The most important part of a debrief, according to Fallon, brutal honesty.
21:08 Speaker 06 Maybe you were really awkward. And you ask your friend who was with you and they say, "Yeah, like, that was like the kind of awkward thing you said." And I don't think that you're gonna get hired, you know? Like, we don't want to lie to ourselves. I think this is a misconception about doing any sort of anxiety work, is you try to convince yourself it's not there. You convince yourself it wasn't that bad. Let's start with the place of, how did I do?
21:36 Speaker 05 Maybe that joke didn't quite land. Maybe that compliment came off a lot more sarcastic than sincere. Maybe you really misunderstood the dress code. And yet, you're breathing. You're employed. You're still a member of society. You didn't get booed out of the room or chased out of town with pitchforks. Make sure to let that sink in. And then, be sure to be fair to yourself and look for the good, too. Like, you didn't spill a single thing on your clothes and you seem to really hit it off with that rock climber.
22:06 Speaker 06 There's going to be very few instances where you're going to get everything wrong or everything right. If we deconstruct a social interaction, there's going to be things across the spectrum of good, bad, and in between.
22:18 Speaker 05 Then use that assessment to create new goals for improvement. Like, maybe one or two conversations felt okay, but most still left you sweating. Just like anything else, social blunders, conversational pivots, only get better with practice.
22:32 Speaker 06 So if I forget what I'm about to say and I sort of blackout, I don't just stop and pause and panic. I can instead keep rolling with it because I'm not... Assuming that what just happened is going to be catastrophic.
22:46 Speaker 05 So Valen says the best thing you can do for yourself is get right back on that horse.
22:49 Speaker 06 If you want to get rid of anxiety, one exposure, doing something scary once is not going to do it. In fact, that could just reinforce your fears. You want to make a plan moving forward. How am I going to keep tackling my social anxiety across a variety of different types of social interactions?
23:07 Speaker 05 And don't forget, imperfect progress is still progress. So give yourself some credit.
23:14 Speaker 02 The only way to gain confidence is to have gone through some awkward, weird social situations, come out the other side and realize that was weird, that was awkward, I survived. I know a little bit more now of how to deal with that kind of situation and I'll be able to work forward.
23:35 Speaker 05 Okay, let's recap. First off, let's note, there's a difference between general, everyday social anxiety and social anxiety disorder. If you feel like your social anxiety is heavier than most, don't hesitate to seek the help of a professional. If you're looking for a place to start, you could try nationalsocialanxietycenter.com. They offer a free self-scoring social anxiety assessment. Takeaway one, practice social courage in small ways on a regular basis. Chat up your cashier, get to know your local barista. When you adore a stranger's shoes on the subway, say so. Takeaway two, before social activity, make small, specific goals that can keep you grounded and help you measure success. And speak your fears out loud, it'll make them less scary.
24:16 Speaker 05 Takeaway three, do your best to be present during social events by removing the focus from yourself. Attention is the best gift we can offer just about anyone. Takeaway four, once you've survived a social function, take an honest assessment of how you did. The good, the bad, the ugly. Use that data to make new goals, then jump right back in.
24:37 Marielle Segarra? That was reporter Andy Tagle. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We also have one on how to cut back on drinking and another on how to cook a turkey for Thanksgiving. And we love hearing from you. So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at [email protected] . This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Sorino and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Gilly Moon. Fact checking by Tyler Jones. I'm Mary El Segarra. Thanks for listening.
25:31 Speaker 00 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.
Previous 5 fitness and mental health tips for men Next What to do if you're losing your hair Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
