Conversations: What Does it Mean To Be Dead? The Homeric Afterlife w/ Bernie Norman

Liv speaks with Dr Bertie Norman about all things ghosts, shades, and eidolons in the Homeric versions of the Underworld. Ghosts of Patroclus, shades of prophets and mothers, and so much more. AVAILABLE NOW! The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourhttps://www.mythsbaby.com/contactpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributionsmythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

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• 2:10Speaker 00

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am coming to you from my terrible temporary headphone microphone and from the hotel room I'm staying at in Athens. This year's group trip has just wrapped up. We had such an amazing time. I think my voice is showing the remnants of that, but it was such a joy having this group with me and we had such an amazing guide. Just praise all around. But that is also why today's episode is a little late. But I thought, you know, I'll have time to edit it on the 31st. And gosh, if it isn't Halloween. So I

• 2:53Speaker 00

  am here with a spooky episode where I spoke with Dr. Birdie Norman, who talks, who studies the afterlife and the people of the dead in Homer and the Homeric underworld. And gosh, we had such an interesting conversation. We could have gone on forever. We recorded this shortly before I flew off to Greece. It was so beautifully timed and such a great dive into the world of the dead. So without any further ramblings, let's just, let's listen to the songs of the dead, shall we?

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Conversations. What does it mean to be dead? The Homeric Afterlife with Dr. Birdie Norman.

• 4:11Liv Albert?

  We're here to talk about the gods, or not even the gods, right? I keep wanting to say the gods, but you just, you look at characters in the underworld, right? And specifically the Odyssey? Is that?

• 4:20Speaker 06

  Oh, well, actually, my research broadens actually quite a lot to all aspects of Homer. So one of the things about that is the perceptions and the imagination of the afterlife in Homer. So one of the things I focus on is how actually does the afterlife and the idea of ghosts and the wraiths come about from the everyday experiences that Homer mentions in both the Iliad and the Odyssey, and how he blends those together to construct this amazing image and topographical image of Hades and what it means to be a post-mortem survivor.

• 4:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah, okay, I love that. Being able to look at the underworld in that way has always been so interesting to me. And it's something that comes up a lot because, you know, people always want to know, like, what does it look like? Who's under there? What are the different aspects? And for me, what I always come up against is like, okay, well, whose version do you want? Right? Like, there's no, there's no one answer to that question. And to me, that's what I love. But a lot of people, you know, who aren't in as deep are frustrated by there being no solid answer, which I respect. But, but gosh, it's fun. And like, the Homeric version, you know, you're getting like, the oldest kind of, sort of, as best we know, like, the origin of what

• 5:36Liv Albert?

  comes afterwards. And so I'm curious, like, how you come at that aspect of, like, breaking down what it looks like, what's going on down there when it comes to this Homeric version?

• 5:48Speaker 06

  That's an extremely good question. And you're absolutely right to draw to attention to the fact that there are many different versions of this. We see this, for instance, when we compare Odyssey 11, where Odysseus goes into the underworld, when we think, compare that to Iliad 23, when Achilles is seeing the ghost of Patroclus for the first time. And we see these rather interesting, different details about the underworld. So this idea that, according to Patroclus, there's only one Kthonic river that separates the world of the dead from the world of the living. But in the Odyssey, there are so many more. You have Periphlegathon, Kokaitis, Akaron. Exactly. But it's, but, and then you go on to Odyssey 24, where you have the dark paths,

• 6:33Speaker 06

  the gates of the sun, the land of dreams, all these different versions of the underworlds that really do paint an image as to how diverse we can actually imagine the afterlife. The thing I think I've always found interesting, though, is the relationships between all of these diverse understandings of what it means to be dead. So one of the things which I originally looked at was to think that actually, we have a basic mental image of ghosts in the afterlife. So we have this idea that they're seeming, they have seemingly incompatible features bound up together. The way I describe it in simple terms, the mental image that Homer and Homer's bars have of ghosts

• 7:18Speaker 06

  is a bit like the puzzle photos you see on Facebook, where you can look at it one way, and it can be something entirely different. A bit like the duck rabbit, for instance. You look at it, somehow see a duck, then look at it again, see the image of rabbit. And it's exactly the same with the ghosts, why we have such diverse understandings of what a ghost is. And sometimes we can, Homer's characters and Homer himself looks at these characteristics and thinks, ah, okay, there's a resemblance, there's a similarity between a ghost and a living person. Therefore, the ghost must have lifelike features. But then, at the same time, they're also quite deficient. Then that leads to further other ways of imagining it. That actually, they're quite

• 7:58Speaker 06

  incorporeal, they're quite deficient, and it leads to these diverse strands of different understandings of the afterlife, which I think is fascinating.

• 8:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, and you just got me thinking about even just, yeah, how, how kind of convoluted, but like, in a fascinating way, that realm is, just in the Odyssey alone, let alone, you know, how you brought in the Iliad, which I didn't, I, it's been a while since I reread the Iliad, but I'm really due, so I've got to get on it. But I forgot that there's only one river, whereas I so imagined that the Homeric version would be the version that has all the rivers. Whereas, to my mind, this idea of there being only one comes so much later, right? Where, because, you know, the modern imagination is like, it's the Styx and nothing else, and everything happens with the Styx. And, and it's always been interesting to me that, like, I love the, all the other

• 8:49Liv Albert?

  rivers, like, Periphlegathon is the best word to say. And, and the fact that they all have these different meanings, of course, for the listeners, Periphlegathon is the river of fire, and is Kokaitis the river of wailing? Or is that a different one?

• 9:02Speaker 06

  I believe so. I'd have to check that.

• 9:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And Lethae is, of course, forgetfulness and all that. Like, I love those elements. And so it's fascinating to be reminded that the Iliad is just like, no, there's, is it Styx? Or is it Asheron? Or, do you know? Sorry, in the Iliad, I'm jumping around. Yeah. Which river is it that is in the Iliad?

• 9:22Speaker 06

  Oh, I beg your pardon. Well, The evidence seems to point to the idea that it's the Styx, that we have the idea that it's Heracles that goes there. But actually, when we come to talking with the ghost of Patroclus himself, when Achilles comes to that interaction, the topography is never actually that specified, which I find quite interesting in that it's so right.

• 9:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, that's very Homeric. It's like, I mean, yeah, it's why I've been asked that question so many times. And I'm like, I don't have a good answer. I need to just tell you all of the vast like mystery of what, you know, the underworld was or wasn't. Okay, well, maybe I'm like thinking directly about the Odyssey because it's what comes to mind so specifically. I'm curious, well, it's hard. I really would love to know everything. So if there's stuff that you're like, I want to talk about this, please feel free. But as I try to like guide anything, I, you know, when I think of the underworld and the Odyssey, I immediately think of the various rituals that Odysseus has to do and, you know, the ways that until the gods or the ghosts have drank from that blood,

• 10:24Liv Albert?

  that they can't speak and, you know, it's, it's so, it's just so visceral. And I mean, I'm obsessed with it. But like, I don't know, what are your thoughts on that? What?

• 10:37Speaker 06

  Oh, this is honestly a topic that I absolutely love talking about. So for the benefit of your readers, essentially those who haven't read the Odyssey, you must do, by the way, it's fantastic, but.

• 10:47Liv Albert?

  If they're listening to me, I don't know where they've been because I've read it to them like four times, but.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  But for those who are not familiar with the underworld scene, there's this really contradictory understanding of what actually the blood ritual does. And Tyresius, the prophet, says to Odysseus that in order for the dead to communicate with him, they must have this imbibing of the blood. They must drink the blood in order for any effects of communication to be had. But what's really interesting is that we see quite a lot of contradictions to this rule. For instance, we see that the ghost of Elpenor, one of Odysseus' companions, actually can speak to Odysseus by themselves. There's no mention of the drinking of the blood exactly. Achilles as well, again, just recognizes Odysseus by himself without anything like this happening.

• 11:33Speaker 06

  Ajax scours Odysseus really angrily, not saying a word, but still that recognition takes place without the blood drinking. So one of the things which I looked at was trying to explain how this inconsistency works. How is it that some of the dead have this lifelike ability to be able to recognize Odysseus and at other times they don't? And the answer, it's quite imperfect, but one of the explanations that I've had is that when we look at Odyssey 11 and we look at those scenes, we actually notice that, the first thing's noticed that Odysseus is reporting this as a character narrator. And one of the things which is really interesting is that he is reporting this narrative through the filters of his own

• 12:19Speaker 06

  ability to apprehend what Hades is. And what that means is that often the clues to resolve this blood drinking actually come from the speeches that he gives himself. So for example, with Elpenor, one of the reasons I think why it is that Elpenor doesn't drink the blood or isn't said to drink the blood is because at that point of the narrative, Odysseus, when he's in the underworld, speaks to Elpenor as though he is a living being. He says, how did you come here? How did you cross these rivers? He addresses him as though he has the cognitive, as though Elpenor has the cognitive ability to speak, to respond to his questions. He is so lifelike in appearance that this immediately makes Odysseus

• 13:02Speaker 06

  it's sort of adduced to the idea that actually this is a cognitive, salient being, a sentient being. And it's from this that then Odysseus doesn't necessarily feel the need, I think, to talk about Elpenor drinking the blood. Because he already has this false perception that actually this is a very real person. And the same also goes, if you think about it, for Achilles as well. One of the reasons why when we look at the scene in more detail, Achilles isn't said to drink the blood, is that Odysseus ascribes him with these, assigns him with these really important characteristics. He calls him the lord of the dead and says that we praise you the same in death as we did in life.

• 13:42Speaker 06

  You have the same power over the dead as we did in life. So again, this idea of assigning these lifelike attributes to the dead allows Odysseus as a narrator to sort of cut out this idea of the dead having some blood drink. It's people that he puts on a really high prestige. And the same goes for Ajax as well. Again, Ajax is again said to Glaua, look at anger, remembering everything that Odysseus did without ever drinking from the blood. But these are again, from the perspective of Odysseus, everything that he gleams from Ajax's reaction is again, from all the other memories that come along with it.

• 14:24Speaker 06

  And he then says, you're still, and the character said, you're still angry at me even after, even in death, you're still annoyed with me? Again, the ability to assign those lifelike characteristics to the dead means that the blood ritual almost gets pushed to one side because, again, the ability to look at these resemblances between the ghost and the lifelike person mean that we almost, the narrator doesn't feel the need to then actually bring in the blood ritual again.

• 14:51Liv Albert?

  That's, okay, that's so interesting. I have so many thoughts now. I hadn't thought about the Achilles and Ajax side of it. But I want to, because the Elpenor has been something that has stuck with me because when I was writing my kids' version, I, you know, one of the things or like the driving thing as I was writing that is like, I'm not changing what Homer wrote. I'm just making it shorter and kid friendly. And that was like my number one. I was like, okay, I'm not actually like actively changing anything. To the point where when I was working with my editor on that scene in the underworld, it was my editor who was like, why can Elpenor talk before he's drank the blood, but everyone else can't?

• 15:36Liv Albert?

  And it was interesting to me because I hadn't really thought about it that much. And but, you know, as a kids' book editor, she's like, okay, the kids are going to ask this question. Like, we have to explain that. And I think because of the way that the Ajax and Achilles bits are framed, like the timing of that is framed after sort of this mass idea of the ghosts being, having access to the blood. And so their, you know, direct drinking of it, in my mind, kind of got like muddled and I was sort of under the assumption that they just had drank it. Whereas with Elpenor, it's like really clearly, yeah, that it's like before Odysseus has even let anyone drink the blood, right? Like he's the first person he sees. And so to me, what came out of that when my editor was questioning it

• 16:18Liv Albert?

  is I just kind of came up with, also like kids need a more concrete explanation than just like, okay, so let me tell you about like oral storytelling and how there are no right or wrong answers, you know? So I was like, okay, because Elpenor hadn't had the, you know, because Odysseus didn't know he was dead until that moment, and therefore his body hadn't been given any necessary funeral rites. That was my explanation for why he could talk before the blood, which I think like, you know, fits okay in a sort of very needed, straightforward answer. But that's so interesting to, to come at it more from what Odysseus is saying and how he is perceiving it.

• 16:59Liv Albert?

  Like, I think that's, that's just like a whole other level that I'm now very interested in because generally my obsession is that Odysseus is a liar. We know he's a liar. He brags about being a liar all of the time. He says, hey, Phaeacians, I'm Odysseus. I'm famous for being a great liar. Here's what happened to me. Let me tell you this really fantastical, almost unbelievable tale. Like, it's fascinating to me to think like, what is this man lying about and what is he not? And so coming up with that about like his perception and how he sees these people as part of why they can or can't talk just adds so many extra layers to that, like Odysseus of it all.

• 17:38Speaker 06

  Well, it's absolutely true. I think that actually probably is a really good way of trying to look at it. But I mean, you mentioned about the difference between burial rites, and that actually is a really fascinating topic to get into. Because when I started looking at this problem of how to resolve these contradictions, the one thing that I've always noticed was that anthropological answer, that anthropological side to it, to think, well, actually, can we categorize the dead between those that have received burial rites and those that haven't? And do the ones that are uncremated are unburied? Do they have special powers that the dead might not? And that's a fascinating question to think about because one of the things that I think in Homer, and I think this is interesting, is that we don't actually quite see that distinction as much.

• 18:23Speaker 06

  So if we think, for instance, in Iliad 23, the dream scene between Achilles and Patroclus, we know at this point that the ghost of Patroclus is unburied. I mean, he even says to Achilles, why on earth you, why are you sleeping on the job? Why, why are you neglecting me? I'm unburied, do something. But at this point, he still has that really interesting cognitive ability despite being unburied to communicate. Yet, if we go a few lines later on, I think it's Iliad 2372, you actually find that the dead that are preventing him from having full access of Hades are the buried ones who are saying, no, you're not good enough to join our ranks.

• 19:05Speaker 06

  But yet they still have the cognition to be able to actually make that refusal and to push him back. So there's a, there's a very interesting shared cognitive ability despite the burial rites, I would say. And I think that's what led me to that answer. And also. What's fascinating as well is also the the corporealty of the dead as well. There's um, I mean, for instance, both the ghost of Patroclus, the ghost of Elpenol, they're all said to be um, Edolon, phantoms in the in modern English. But um, at the same time, Anticlia also gives an explanation that actually those who are cremated also

• 19:45Speaker 06

  have this ability to be somehow incorporeal, immaterial after their bodies are fully burned and buried and vanish. And I think that's quite interesting is that while Anticlia gives this explanation that actually the the burial does affect the ghost in the afterlife, the dead in the afterlife. We still feel that Homer doesn't quite appreciate that that burial distinction because, again, all the dead are seen to be at some points corporeal, at some points being able to physically interact their environment, but at other times completely immaterial. So I I for me, I was always difficult juggling that idea of actually where exactly does Homer put this idea of ritual into the afterlife? And I I still I still struggle with that one.

• 20:31Liv Albert?

  Yeah, no, I agree completely. And I think for me, that's why I love the Homeric texts so much more than the other epic poems that survive, which were like intentionally written, you know, like a Neneid or or metamorphoses or something, right? Like, I love the Homeric, I mean, one, because they're older than that, you know, but also because they're so old, they're so full of contradictions. Like, you can't, there's no, like, hard and fast answer to any big question about world building or, you know, character development, all these things. There's so many things that are just contradictory.

• 21:12Liv Albert?

  And I think that for a modern imagination, it's so frustrating. But at the same time, like, as soon as you're deep enough into this world to like appreciate the oral storytelling aspect and like fully conceptualize that, it's like, it's not frustrating, it's fascinating. It's so interesting to think about where these contradictions come from, like, whether, you know, whether they were something that anyone was concerned with, or whether these stories were really just about like understanding and and like just storytelling. And, you know, I think it's such a modern need that we have to have like narratives, questions be answerable. Whereas like, that just wasn't the point back then, like, they weren't developing narratives to answer every like

• 21:57Liv Albert?

  question that any old listener would have, like, they were beyond that, it was something bigger and, you know, more cultural. It's just, yeah, like, it's fascinating, especially when you consider the contradictions between the Iliad and the Odyssey and like what that says about, you know, the authorship or lack thereof or what have you, right? Like, there's so many contradictions, these big things where like, well, like, even just something as simple as like Aphrodite's mother is like different between the two, or no, no, it's not that, it's Hephaestus's wife is different between the Iliad and the Odyssey. And you're like, how's that? Did the same person really write it? Like, what, you know, there's just so many little elements that are baffling in a way that I find very, very satisfying.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  Oh, oh massively so. I mean, I think that's one of the things why we actually love Homer as as classicist is the fact that it is almost like a puzzle that we're still trying to solve now and again. But I think what's really interesting though, and I I really appreciate your point about intentionality because I think you're absolutely right for saying that Homer isn't coming at this from a an average point of trying to answer these questions. What he's what he's trying to do is tell a great romping story, which I I absolutely love. But I think within that, there's that really fascinating question of the the most human side of those contradictions, which is that actually are the, even if these contradictions aren't necessarily intentional and just simply a product of composition,

• 23:23Speaker 06

  it still makes you wonder, how are we able to to be okay with those contradictions at the start? I mean, for instance, when we talk broadly about a concept, like, for instance, when we talk of something as abstract as time, we come up with a variety of different conceptions, time passes by, time flies. We we talk about time as a static object and the the same, I think, is absolutely the key for the dead. That Homer might just be looking at, talking about the dead and a rise of contradictory race just to move on with Odysseus's voyage home. But yet, the fact that those contradictions exist tell us so much about the understanding of a past which we do not have access to in any other, any other culture.

• 24:08Speaker 06

  I mean, one, the fundamental difficulties, for those of the readers who don't necessarily know much about Homeric composition, is that Homer is not actually attributed to a certain time or place. Many of the predominant theories that Homer actually is an oral poem that exists for generations, passed down from different timelines, different cultures, and it's just regurgitated, for want of a better expression, a bit like a nursery rhyme, that we can't really ever give a proper name to or a proper time and place. And so we must rely on the texts themselves to be able to come up with these answers of, well, where do these contradictions derive from? Sort of what, what sort of mental image is it that allows

• 24:49Speaker 06

  these contradictions to have? And that gives us such an interesting insight, I think, into into this sort of Homeric, for want of a better expression, Homeric past that we can't otherwise have access to. And it it gives so many fascinating other questions about how Homer relates to to a modern day understanding. So, for instance, we contemplate about the dead in the same way we talk about them in diverse ways because they're so abstract. And in the same respect, Homer does, by having these contradictions, does something incredibly similar, which is that because death is such an abstract, intangible idea, it's something that we can never understand as as living mortals, that we have to resort to all of these contradictions to make sense.

• 25:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, all of that. And then also, I like the contradictions are so indicative of how un-unified the culture was at that time, right? And and that, those, the same questions of like, you know, they are so amorphous and sort of uncertain. And then you're also adding in that this story is likely being developed across like a wide swath of land. And so who knows, like, maybe some of the contradictions are coming from certain people having different beliefs than other people and this attempt to kind of pull it all together into something that feels kind of cohesive and then just ends up having some contradictions because you're like melding in different belief structures from a world that was in no way unified

• 26:14Liv Albert?

  under one idea or one understanding of what anything was, let alone like something as, something as intangible as death, you know?

• 26:22Speaker 06

  No, absolutely. But I I think what the things that I noticed actually when researching this is that the fascinating thing is that even when we look at, say, cultural additions or or certain cultural add-ons to the poem to the epic, that we see that there is still an element of consistency, which I think is really interesting. So, for instance, if we compare the the dream scene between the ghost of Patroclus and Achilles, the way that it ends is that Achilles attempts to embrace the ghost of Patroclus, but he goes away screeching, descending into the earth, evaporating like a bit of smoke. The Greek word for the screeching is, I believe, tragouia. It's, I probably am pronouncing that, but it's

• 27:06Liv Albert?

  Like tragedy, yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  Oh, no, no, no, it's it's from the verb trizo.

• 27:12Liv Albert?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:13Speaker 06

  Screech, sorry, it's the the perfect form I was trying to articulate. But um, but if we compare that, say, to Odyssey 24, when the suitors are said to be descending to the underworld, we have a vast variety of different cultural additions to that idea of the afterlife. We have Hermes being the one that guides down the dead, something which we don't see in any of the other accounts. We have these new landscapes, I did the the land of dreams, the gates of the sun, the white rock. But between all of that, there is still that consistent image where the suitors are said to be making, moving down to the underworld, the same way that Patroclus moves down to the underworld, making exactly the same sound.

• 27:56Liv Albert?

  Oh, is it the same word?

• 27:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, it's exactly the same word.

• 27:59Liv Albert?

  Because I know that it's usually translated as like, like, I know Emily Wilson's, at least because it ended up in my book, is that they're like squeaking like bats in a cave. And I love that. And so, yeah, hearing that that's the same word is, ooh.

• 28:10Speaker 06

  Yes, no, absolutely. And you're absolutely right, drawing on that that back parallel because that that's exactly the same verb that is used to describe the sound of Patroclus descend. And that tells us a really interesting idea about deaths that actually even when we have these cultural additions. And believe me, Odyssey 24 has long been proposed by Alexandrian scholars as having been a cultural add-on, something that's written much later by another poet.

• 28:35Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's a wacky final book.

• 28:38Speaker 06

  It really, it really, really is. But we we still see that consistent image of the dead still actually having those same deficient features, which I I think is fascinating because even when we think of that development, we still see that the image of the dead is quite consistent. And again, the same applies when we think of Uh, the, the fa- famous Heracles scene in Odyssey eleven.

• 28:59Liv Albert?

  I've been waiting to bring that up.

• 29:01Speaker 06

  Fantastic, fantastic. Um, it, it is, it has long been proposed that's a, a, a much later Orphic, uh, Orphic addition.

• 29:08Liv Albert?

  Oh, Orphic.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  I believe so. I could be wrong about that. I think.

• 29:12Liv Albert?

  I can see that. They're wacky. They're, those people are messy. There's a long running joke on my show about how much I do not want to try to understand Orphic. And I did briefly do like a three-part series and where I.

• 29:24Speaker 06

  Really?

• 29:24Liv Albert?

  But Orphic is so baffling. It like, I think I've forgotten everything I learned back then because it just doesn't make any sense to me. But that's really interesting hearing it could be Orphic. Now I want to dig into that.

• 29:37Speaker 06

  Well, absolutely. I, I love seeing that more. I, I, I think I could be slightly wrong on that. So please don't correct, uh, don't quote me on that.

• 29:42Liv Albert?

  Oh, I mean, I just want to know. So you've given me the idea, even if it's.

• 29:46Speaker 06

  Even if it's completely wrong.

• 29:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 06

  But, um, but again, that, that's fascinating as well because that scene has for such a long time been considered to be, um, spurious. It's been considered to be a, a much later cultural addition. And yet the presentation of the dead is still consistent with the earlier parts of Odyssey eleven, where they're still making the same screeching sounds. Um, the Odysseus says that they, um, they clamor like birds. Um, and it, and incidentally, that sound is when they're, they're moving around Heracles in very much the same way that they make an awful screeching sounds at the very beginning of Odyssey eleven, when they're moving around Odysseus. So it, it, it's, it's really interesting. Again, when you think of even when we have these cultural additions, um, these cultures are still, um, conforming to this rule of actually what it means to be dead.

• 30:33Speaker 06

  And so, um, what, what I think is actually going on here when we're looking at these contradictions is that it's not necessarily that we're seeing a, a, a complete different idea of the beliefs of being dead, but actually we're seeing that a consistent and ambiguous image, something that's very unclear, is still existing uh, from each timeline. And that is still something which even from one generation of home act performance to the other is still trying to be deciphered.

• 31:12Liv Albert?

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• 31:52Liv Albert?

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• 32:32Liv Albert?

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• 33:05Liv Albert?

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• 33:46Liv Albert?

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• 34:21Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Well, and I was gonna, the reason I thought of Heracles is I wanted to know your thoughts on, on, well, to the listeners, um, you know, the, sorry, I'm going to go back in my, trying to explain this. The reason I came up with this recently is that I'm a very normal person who was flipping through Timothy Gant's early Greek myths books recently. Just picking things out, um, like a deeply social person. Anyway, and there is like a reference to that moment in the Odyssey with Heracles and even in the Gants where he's trying to break down, you know, where things are coming from and what's going on. He says, he describes Heracles as like, he's a, it's the idolon of his shade.

• 35:05Liv Albert?

  It's like, it's like a ghost of a ghost of Heracles.

• 35:08Speaker 06

  Interesting.

• 35:09Liv Albert?

  And yeah, because it, in, but it is, it's very different. Like Heracles in that scene, like you said, he's very different from the other gods, but at the same time maintaining a lot of those things. But he is more, like there's, there's like a reference basically about how he is like just a, I'm trying to think of what exactly it was, but it's like he's less, he's less able to like be cognition of like what's going on. I think he sounds more like a, yeah, a ghost of a ghost. I think it's like the simplest way to put it. But, cause then it's also so tied up in that weird ending where it's like, and then he saw like something, the shade, whatever, layers of shades of, of Heracles. And before he could do anything, like a Gorgon was going to come flying out and so he ran, right?

• 35:53Liv Albert?

  And there's just so much going on there. It's like, oh, what's, I know I've, I've dug deep into the, the Gorgon reference too, because I've, I've done a lot of work on Medusa. And that's like the earliest reference to a, or one of the earliest references to a Gorgon. And it's very non-Gorgon like when it comes to like other representations. And, and so it's interesting. And I don't know. Now I'm going in circles because I'm just generally obsessed with like these weird elements of like, what is going on with Heracles there? And I mean, the Gorgon is a whole other level. I don't know what she's doing down there. And I just kind of love it. But yeah, I don't know. I'm curious if you have like, you've already talked about Heracles, so maybe there's not more, but I'm just fascinated with all of that.

• 36:32Speaker 06

  No, well, uh, this is really interesting. Um, so one of the things which I'm looking at for this, um, basically I'm trying to turn my PhD into a book. And one thing which I'm looking at is how, um, uh, we use a thing called, um, blending, which is the idea that we take, um, various different stories, various different, um, piece of information and combine them to form a much grander narrative. And one of the things which I think is really interesting about this is that I, I no doubt think that there's a really interesting contradiction between um, Heracles that we see in the Odyssey and Heracles that we see in the Iliad. I mean, despite the, the, the catabasis of going into the underworld, still there are some details that don't match. For instance, the apotheosis of going to, um, uh, uh, uh, being up there in Olympus.

• 37:13Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 06

  With, with, with Hebe's just doesn't, doesn't float with the Iliad at all.

• 37:18Liv Albert?

  No, like, why are you down? Why are you now in the underworld? Like being kind of freakier than all the other ghosts in the underworld?

• 37:23Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 37:23Liv Albert?

  You're supposed to be up on Olympus, married to this pretty lady, like.

• 37:26Speaker 06

  Exactly. Absolutely. But, um, one of the things which I think, I think is so fascinating is that. Homer is that if we think of it as a blend of various different stories, one of the things we see is that actually the story is included and almost merged in a way, in integrated into the scene. I think as a way of developing a decent zone sense of self-importance. There's a really interesting, I know, I know. As if the man doesn't need to be more important than he already is, but.

• 37:55Liv Albert?

  Color me unsurprised. Really, that guy?

• 37:59Speaker 06

  I know.

• 38:02Speaker 06

  But I mean, absolutely. I mean, of course, we want to learn more about how amazing Odysseus is. Well, just, he's done so much already.

• 38:10Liv Albert?

  I mean, he has told us about all the great stuff he's done. Definitely, everyone should believe him.

• 38:15Speaker 06

  Exactly, absolutely. It's all truthworthy. He's not a man of many wonders. He is genuine, but.

• 38:23Liv Albert?

  Except for all the times that he lied on purpose, you know, but.

• 38:26Speaker 06

  Exactly. Yeah, it's fake news.

• 38:30Liv Albert?

  Exactly.

• 38:32Speaker 06

  But one thing that I think is very interesting with this, that Homer does have a really interesting ability to be able to to blend various stories together and to blend loads of various counts of information together. And I think this comes back as well to the idea that one thing that the narrative of Odyssey 11 is most important for doing is a turning point in Odysseus. In this point, I mean, beforehand, Odysseus was, for want of a better phrase, a rapscallion. I mean, he, I mean, he killed, I mean, he blinded Polyphemus. He, in the Coconies, I mean, he was absolutely atrocious.

• 39:11Speaker 06

  Again, I mean, he raped and pillaged. He was genuinely awful.

• 39:15Liv Albert?

  One of the moments that I just don't want to leave out because you're so right, but the Lystragonians, I think, don't get enough shit. The fact that he, he parks his ship in the only safe place and then makes a real mental note that like the rest of his ships would not be able to escape the place that they have anchored. And he's like, no, no, but I'll keep mine out here. Like, I just like he does not get enough shit for that moment.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  He should do, he should do. That's another thing I'm going to be ticking off the why I hate Odysseus list, but.

• 39:46Liv Albert?

  He's terrible and also I love him.

• 39:48Speaker 06

  Absolutely. But one thing that we see with Odyssey 11 is that it's a real turning point, I think, in Odysseus' character development. And that he is actually realizing now that actually there are consequences to his actions of being able to blind the son of Poseidon. And at this point, he's told by Tyresius that actually he must really heed the warning of going to Therinica, the island of the sun, killing off the cattle because he is going to anger Helios, the sun god. And at that point, you sort of see, start to see that there are, the Odyssey 11, the Book of the Dead, is used very much as a way to get more of an understanding of Odysseus. And I think this is a very interesting point to raise as to why Heracles comes into the scene.

• 40:32Speaker 06

  Because there's a scholar back in 2018 called George Alexander Gadsden, who wrote a book about how Hades is a platform to be able to represent different epic narratives. When we think of the, the number of women, for instance, that come to Odysseus regaling their stories, Hades suddenly becomes a platform to be able to present all of these wonderful, different epic narratives that haven't otherwise been able to feature. And yeah, there are other ones that they're all combined, blended into, into this underworld scene to make their voices heard. And I think that's quite interesting, but I think that also gives us some insight as to why Heracles is introduced to the scene as well.

• 41:10Speaker 06

  Because by introducing Heracles, this very well-known, through cultural memory, this very well-known hero that has this own catibasis, Odysseus is able to introduce that story as a way to, to show how he's measured against previous heroes. And I mean, again, Heracles even makes a point saying, why have you come down to the underworld like I did? I've, I've already taken, I've already taken service. You've done exactly the same trial that, that I have. You must be of the same, I mean, he doesn't say this, but it essentially, the implication is that he is still having the same hero status as, as an already great hero. He's already got that badge of honor from, from Heracles. So I, I think there's a very interesting reason as to why that scene is included.

• 41:53Speaker 06

  It's a way of just, again, hyping Odysseus up, saying, guys, I, I know I'm great, but you know what? Heracles just gave me a thumbs up. I'm even, I'm even better than you guys think.

• 42:04Liv Albert?

  Okay, that's, yeah, that's so on point. That's so Odysseus. And now I'm just curious, I think, is Alcmeni, like Heracles' mom, is she one of the women? I think so.

• 42:14Speaker 06

  Yes, yes, she is.

• 42:15Liv Albert?

  So that's like him also being like, well, I just saw your mom and now the, you know, Heracles is down here telling me I am so important. But I, I also think that adds like an extra level of entertainment for me, but specifically like also so in keeping with Odysseus being one of the heroes who kind of has to convince us that he's a hero. Whereas most of the other ones kind of have their stories do it for them, you know, whereas Odysseus is kind of like, but I'm important. I'm, I swear, I'm important. And I think like having, you know, Heracles involved makes it a little more entertaining when the, you know, there's the debate about whether, whether Odysseus' catibasis counts

• 42:59Liv Albert?

  as an official, full catibasis because he doesn't cross the river. And it's like, ooh, like, did he even do that, right? So I think it's funnier to imagine that debate when you're like, okay, but is he there talking to Heracles as a way to make himself feel, you know, as important as Heracles? But then, did he even really do as much as Heracles? Because he didn't actually go into the underworld. He went to the edge of it. You know, it's just, there's so many fun debates over like what does and does not count and like, you know, what he did or did not really do. But at the same time, I don't know, there's, I'm just obsessed with all of that scene, I guess.

• 43:35Speaker 06

  Oh, no, it is absolutely fascinating. You could unpack it for ages.

• 43:39Liv Albert?

  And the women too, I want to make sure we don't not talk about the women because I've always found their stories in the underworld to be so interesting, not in a way where they're really presenting much new, because, you know, we, we know the stories of these women elsewhere. But the fact that their names and even a bit of their story does appear as early as the Odyssey is something that, I mean, I think is very important. And to me, it means a lot for, you know, my show is raging feminist all of the time. And because Greek mythology is pretty, pretty not that generally. But I always maintain, you know, of all the sources, the Odyssey and the Iliad, but the Odyssey, I think a little more

• 44:23Liv Albert?

  is some of the best and most egalitarian representation of women in the whole of the ancient Greek corpus, right? It's like one of the only places where we get a lot of women who are very clearly important and influential. And yeah, and, and the women in the underworld add so much to that, this like list of women who were very often like, I mean, so often it's like the women are there because they had important sons, but also, you know, we still do get a bit of their story in a way that just like doesn't really come up in most other sources. I don't really have a question about this, I guess, but I'm curious how you feel about these women because I'm obsessed with them.

• 45:03Speaker 06

  No, I, I think you're absolutely right for introducing it. And actually, it's interesting, as you spoke about that, it actually makes me think that the female characters in Odyssey 11 actually almost have a, a stance similar in a way to Tyresius in that they have very interesting access to knowledge of what dead are, which every other meager mortal male dead man actually doesn't, which I, I think is so fascinating. I mean, for instance, when we compare, think of Anticlaea, for example, she instantly in, I think it's 218 to 222, says to Odysseus why the dead don't have a completely incorpore, why they're completely disembodied.

• 45:42Speaker 06

  She gives a really interesting answer to a topic which only Circe has somewhat alluded to when she says that, oh, well, actually Tyrese is the only one that has a brain or is intelligent. The rest of them are just floating shadows. It, all, Tyrese seems to be the exception and the one in the male figure to be able to actually give information about the underworld. And yet actually the women in it, so Anticlaea, Circe, they all seem to give a much more fascinating idea of actually what it means to be, to be a ghost in the afterlife. They almost seem to be on the same plateau as a prophet who can give this divine knowledge that otherwise we don't necessarily have access to. So I, I completely think that's a fascinating point, this idea that there's a raised platform for women in the underworld.

• 46:27Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and I never really made that connection to Tyreseus, but they do talk to him a lot more than anyone else really does. And it's fascinating. I always love to, like, it's very explicit that they're sent by Persephone to tell their stories. And that to me is like revolutionary in Greek myth, you know, like women are so erased. And, and I mean, a big reason why I care so much about, I mean, I care about the Odyssey and the women in it broadly. But also, you know, all pop culture representations, all reception of the Odyssey erases them so completely, even, I mean, this is, I don't know if you're familiar with Epic the Musical. I am not very.

• 47:07Speaker 06

  No, I am not. Please tell me.

• 47:08Liv Albert?

  Okay. Have you heard of it? Because if.

• 47:11Speaker 06

  I think I might have done, yes. You know, I might actually be meeting up with a few friends to watch it, but I've, I've not heard that much more from it.

• 47:17Liv Albert?

  Well, I envy you if you haven't heard about it, like obsessively for the last five years, because I'm just, I'm not interested in it, if I'm honest. But it is huge and every, everyone wants me to talk about it, but it is, as far as I can tell, like, I mean, it's a, it's a reception of the Odyssey. It's a, it presents itself as a retelling of the Odyssey. But in practice, it's quite a, like quite a departure, I would say, from a lot of the elements of the Odyssey that I find to be the most important. And I briefly, we tried to do a thing on my show where, because people had asked me about it so much, it was like, okay, I have a friend who will talk about it in more detail and I will listen to one song and talk about that song.

• 47:58Liv Albert?

  And the song that my listeners picked for me to listen to was this one that Tyreseus sings in the underworld. And it was, it was a good song. I was interested in it, but it ended and I went, ooh, this makes me ask about how this musical treats the women in the underworld. And the answer is they're not there, not even his mother.

• 48:18Speaker 06

  Seriously.

• 48:19Liv Albert?

  None of them, like not even the mother where you're like, she like, and, and so, and it's just, I mean, it reminds me like in, of course, in Christopher Nolan's, you know, he, that man. If anyone has proved that they hate women, it's him.

• 48:32Speaker 06

  Oh, I, I, I have a lot of thoughts about, um, I mean, particularly underworld scene about Christopher Nolan's film, sorry.

• 48:38Liv Albert?

  Oh, cause terrible. I mean, I could yell about that movie for the rest of time because the way they treated women is like actually egregious.

• 48:44Speaker 06

  They, they, they, they did not feature in the underworld scene. So, and there's such a critical role. I mean.

• 48:49Liv Albert?

  So important. Exactly.

• 48:50Speaker 06

  Especially the mother. I mean, even notwithstanding the, um, the women that we see in the rest of the underworld scene. I mean, the development of the character relation between Odysseus and Odysseus's mother is so critical.

• 49:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 06

  To being able to understand how the plot develops, what exactly is happening to Telemachus, what's happening to Penelope. It, it, it baffled me why they, they left that out.

• 49:11Liv Albert?

  I mean, I wish I could say it baffled me, but after what they did to Helen, it doesn't surprise me at all because it's clear that Christopher Nolan hates women with what he did to Helen. And I'll say that straight into this microphone. Like, I can't. He made Helen beaten by her husband when in the Odyssey, she like rules that town. And I.

• 49:28Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, the, the, there's a brilliant scene, which I remember from the Odyssey is, uh, uh, I think it's in book fifteen. Um, it, there's obviously a bird sign of Odysseus's, uh, return and Menelaus is just about to.

• 49:41Liv Albert?

  I know exactly what you're gonna say.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  Exactly. Is just about to give this interpretation and suddenly Helen butts in and say, wait, wait, wait, no, shut up. This is what's actually taking place. And it's brilliant. It, it's a moment where Helen gives out a really authentic, powerful prophecy that, again, Menelaus actually isn't able to catch on too quickly. Again, it's just absolutely amazing to see how this, this woman who was once a captive is now suddenly having this huge, amazing prophetic ability to be able to do something, again, similar to Tyrese, similar to Tyrese, it's not that no other male character can. It is, I know, the fact that they left that out, I was very disappointed by.

• 50:21Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, I mean, they left that out. And then that scene also, like, I think very intentionally mirrors a scene in, it has to be book four, where, um, when, you know, when Telemachus is there, but before they know who he is, Menelaus is like crying about Odysseus really publicly. And he's like, oh, stranger, like my, my poor friend, Odysseus. And then Helen comes in and she's like, this is Odysseus's son. You know, and it's like, in every scene, she just comes in and she's like, here is the truth of the situation, men. Look at it or don't, you know, like she rules everything, every scene that she has. And so, yeah, the, I mean, God, there's so much to say about that terrible movie.

• 50:59Speaker 06

  I, to be fair though, to go, to go on to that feminist point, which I think is fascinating.

• 51:03Liv Albert?

  Please.

• 51:04Speaker 06

  Oh, no, it's brilliant. It's actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that, um, men in many ways in the Odyssey, in Homer, serve as a conduit for female voices. Um, one of the fascinating things about it is obviously that whenever we read the opening of the Iliad, the Odyssey, it's always, um, uh, Musa and Epe, uh, speak into me, muses. Um, the men act as a conduit for, um, female, for the muses' voices, for these, uh, divine female figures who actually are, do have the art of storytelling. And there's an amazing bit in the Iliad, book two, just before the, the catalog shifts, which, I mean, most people can skip over because really, I mean, I, I, I don't know about you, but personally, I, I, I don't have that much interest in learning about every single each other's ship. Just my personal opinion.

• 51:50Speaker 06

  But there is, but there is a wonderful, wonderful bit where the narrator actually speaks for the first time in a very personal voice and says, um, please tell us, Muse, um, of all these accounts, we, um, you know, um, you know, the truth. Um, we've only heard about this through rumors. Even if we had a thousand tongues, a thousand mouths, um, we would not be able to communicate in the way that you do, um, a, a, a, about, um, about this catalog. And that for me gives a really interesting philosophical points. Um, I mean, not only about women, but also about how, um, again, humankind tries to communicate these problems by coming up with a range of words to describe something that's so fundamentally abstract. And yet, these, these female figures, uh, divine figures have the ability to describe it all fluently.

• 52:35Speaker 06

  Um, so a, a, again, that, that hierarchy seems to be much more female orientated, which is, is fascinating.

• 52:42Liv Albert?

  It really does. Like in the, like in Homer, I think more than anything else and, but also in ways that like has been completely erased in the intervening, you know, two thousand years to the point where most people have no idea that there are women in the underworld because every bit of reception they've ever seen doesn't include them, you know? And, and, but it's interesting to the way you, you know, talked about the women being just even remotely like in line with Tyreseus. I hadn't thought about that much, but Cersei also has all of the answers, right? Like every, yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 06

  Yeah. I have, no, absolutely, absolutely. But again, I mean, that, that's where it comes into a really interesting idea of gender politics because one things that we see with Cersei and with Tyreseus is there's almost a, a clash, at least in scholarly circles, there's clash because one of the questions as to why Odyssey eleven should exist is that, well, when he comes out of the underworld, Cersei gives a series of very practical instructions as to how to return home. So what on earth is the point of Tyreseus? Um, which is, is interesting because then that, that raises the, the question of actually, well, really, should there have been a descent to the underworld in the first place? If Cersei is just able to give this information. Personally, I think there is a, a, a fine nuance between the, the two versions of the, the prophecies they give. But, um, nevertheless, it's still underlying that is that really interesting addition of, well, actually, whose voice is the more substantial, whose voice is the more useful for Odysseus in able, in order for him to be able to return home?

• 54:10Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause if I'm not wrong, like Cersei and Tyreseus say almost the same thing. Like there's, there's a little bit more that he adds about like Odysseus's end of his life, I think. But otherwise it's very much like, this is what you have to do to go home.

• 54:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, massively. So the, the way I, I usually try and describe it to students is that, that the difference, I would say that I've noticed that Tyreseus offers more of a, a theoretical, a, a, a sort of a moral guide, whereas, um, Cersei offers quite a lot of a, a, a practical situation. So for instance, um, one of the things that we noticed with Tyreseus is that he says, well, um, you can't kill the castle of, um, the castle of the sun. That, that's bad. That's just a no go. Don't do that. That's, that's completely and utterly unethical. Yet, when we get to the scene with Cersei, we actually, he, she actually gives a really practical guide, which is that, well, maybe try and avoid Skylar, maybe try and avoid, um, Javonis, yet maybe don't go through those, uh, two mountains that the Argo went through. So it, again, there, there's a lot more of a, a sort of a common sense element, actually a much more practical element to the, the sort of foretelling of how to return home that Cersei gets, which again, that distinction I find quite interesting.

• 55:19Speaker 06

  And what are the implications of that?

• 55:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Now it makes me want to look at all of the women in the Odyssey because I have a feeling they do lean more on the practical, like real life, helpful information as opposed to some of the more like amorphous ideas. And it makes me think too of, you know, when he lands on, on the island of the Phaeacians, it's really clear who he has to direct himself to in the first place. You go talk to the queen. Like the Nosacaw says it, and then he does it. Like, it's very clear. Like, you know, the king has power, but start with the queen. And, and when you link that up with the power Penelope keeps to, keeps holding on to without him, Helen in every, every scene that she's in, in the Odyssey, and, and Cersei and all, and Anticlia and all these, like, the women are, I mean, obviously I've said a thousand times, like the women are ridiculously important in the Odyssey, but I hadn't thought about how much more like practical when it comes to just like remaining alive and like, just like living a decent life.

• 56:20Liv Albert?

  Like the women have a lot more practical advice. I mean, Menelaus is useless without Helen in the Odyssey and it's kind of hilarious. Like, she does everything. He keeps trying and then he can't. He's so emotional about his friend that like, that Helen has to step in, you know?

• 56:37Speaker 06

  No, it, it is one thought. And also, I mean, if we think about even the, um, the more abstract divine, uh, understandings of, of, of life itself, what's fascinating is that they're all described in the feminine, um, which I, I, I think is really interesting. I mean, for instance, when we think of, um, the Moira, for instance, um, Asa, that the, for, for the readers, these are all, um, basically various names for fate. And, and what's fascinating is that, um, these names of fate are all attributes and these characteristics of fate are all attributes that are given to Penelope as well. I mean, for instance, we find that the, the Moira are the ones that are spinning the life threads of, um, of many a soldier in the Iliad. And yet it is that being, uh, that ability to weave, that ability to spin, which we find that, um, Penelope does. And it, and it's, it's interesting, I, I always find between how actually these feminine characters seem to be able to almost plot the, the entire life of, um, a character's lifespan.

• 57:31Speaker 06

  And Penelope by the same, um, by the same equation does that for the suitors as well.

• 57:36Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, and for all Penelope's weaving is obviously the most like famous and iconic, something that I hadn't really noticed before, but, um, I've had a couple of conversations with, uh, Emily Hauser, who's a friend of mine, and she's done a ton of work on, on Homeric women and all that. And now I see so much like Penelope is famously weaving in the Odyssey, but when we meet Calypso and when we meet Cersei, they are both actively weaving. And also, um, Helen, obviously when she, in that scene shortly after the bird omen where she's like, shut up, husband, I know the answer to this. Um, around that same time, she hands Telemachus like her most finely woven robe that she wove herself and, uh.

• 58:22Speaker 06

  Oh, sorry. Yeah. I think you cut off a little bit there.

• 58:24Liv Albert?

  I know. I was like, oh, I'm gonna pause. Okay, great. You're back. Thank God. Um, so, no, yeah. But, um, Helen is handing over this, this robe that, you know, she wove herself and she hands it to Le, to Leemachus and she says, this is for your future wife, but give it to your mom to take care of. Like, there's just so many elements in that that I think. The, to me, point to, you know, something of some level of power within women that I think has been, you know, really stamped out in, in the later myths and, and then all the reception of it. But, but I love that you can, you can feel it so viscerally in the Odyssey and in the Iliad. I mean, from the Muses to the Fates to like all of these other women. It's, you know, they are the ones moving the plot along, especially in the, in the Odyssey.

• 59:10Liv Albert?

  Like, I, I've been doing a, a book club for kids with my book with this local bookshop here in Toronto. And oh, my God, it's been so delightful. But last night, it's, oh, my God, it's like, and I don't normally interact with kids like this podcast. Like I said, very explicit warning. It's very like, just me like screaming about the patriarchy all the time. Um, so transitioning into working with kids was, I was worried. And, uh, but like, oh, my God, seeing how these kids talk about Greek myth and the things they know, like, it's wild. Um, but the first question they had for me was, did you make the goddesses and the women more important than they are in the original? And, and I was like, I didn't

• 59:55Liv Albert?

  at all. But what these kids are picking up on, because they know Greek myth, they read a load of Percy Jackson, and you know, they know Greek myth, for some faults with that Percy Jackson. But, um, you know, they, they immediately picked up on that, not because I had, because I did not inflate the characters of these women at all. It's just that every other bit of reception that they had come across had deflated them. And so to these kids reading my version of the Odyssey, they're seeing these powerful goddesses and they're like, oh, did you do that on purpose? And I'm like, no, I just didn't take them out on purpose, in a way that like, most other additions that you would have encountered do, you know? And, and so it's like, all I did was present Helen, Penelope, Athena,

• 1:00:40Liv Albert?

  all of them exactly how they are in the Odyssey. And these kids who have only had other access are immediately like, wow, you made the women so much bigger. And it's like, oh, my God, you know, it's, it's both fulfilling and also painful to be like, no, you just think that because everyone else has taken them away. And, you know, but, but it's, anyway, I don't want to turn this into like, all about the women. I'm, well, the ghosts are what we're here for, but.

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• 1:02:18Liv Albert?

  This December, the magic of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol returns to Virginia Repertory Theater in downtown Richmond. Experience the transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge as he's visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future, and rediscovers the joy and true meaning of the holiday season. Performances run November 18th through December 27th. Tickets on sale now at VirginiaRep.org or by calling 804-282-2620.

• 1:03:05Liv Albert?

  I love the way that, that these connections are made and just the way that, that, I mean, even in the underworld, there are women really making a point and, and really like drawing along the story and reminding Odysseus that he's human. You know, when he talks to his mom and everything, that has to be one of the most human moments we get from this man.

• 1:03:26Speaker 06

  Oh, oh, absolutely. I mean, case in point, when, um, some of my family members had actually read the Odyssey for the first time after they learned, I was studying it, the first thing they always drew back to was that moment where Odysseus tries to hug his mother.

• 1:03:38Liv Albert?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:03:39Speaker 06

  I know. And I generally, when I remember it, I think, oh, my God, my heart's bleeding for him. And absolutely, it is, it is the most unbelievably human moment, the most, I think the most emotional moment, I think, of that entire encounter. But I, I absolutely love the reception of that. I absolutely love the fact that people read that and engage that. And that's the first thing they come to.

• 1:03:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah. The mom and the dog. Those are, that's it. Those are his two human moments, you know?

• 1:04:07Liv Albert?

  Uh, well, okay, I'm, I'm curious, you know, obviously you're looking mostly at all of these different shades and these elements of like, what makes a ghost in the underworld. But one thing, just in keeping a little with, with the women chat, one thing that's always been interesting to me is the way that there are no, um, cathonic gods referenced in at least the Odyssey, right?

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  Ah, interesting.

• 1:04:29Liv Albert?

  Persephone, Persephone, Persephone. And, you know, we've been throwing around the word Hades, but the word Hades as a person is not used in the Odyssey, right? It's like the place, but I don't believe that, that the god as a, like a man is referenced and it's all Persephone, if I'm not wrong.

• 1:04:47Speaker 06

  Oh, no, that's very interesting. Um, I hadn't actually talked about it that way before, but I think there might be just one very small occasion where that is actually mentioned. Um, for instance, at the very start of, um, uh, I think, uh, from lines 30 onwards, when Odysseus is committing the rituals, I think there is a very brief allusion to Hades as a person, because the, it's the, the dedications are made to Hades and Persephone.

• 1:05:11Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:12Speaker 06

  But I think that is the only time that we actually have seen it. But you're absolutely right for the rest of it. I mean, Hades doesn't really feature. The only time actually when we do see, um, even hear about Persephone is that actually she's the one that, um, forms the, um, the idolon of, of the ghost. Also, very confusingly as well, she's also the one that can somehow perform similar acts for the shades as well. She gives, um, uh, the, the noose, the, the mind to, the nous, the man to, uh, to Tyreseus, but to none of the other shades. She also makes the shades scatter before Odysseus meets the ghost of Agamemnon. So a- again, it's quite interesting that Persephone seems to have a lot more power to control the dead than, um, we see from Hades.

• 1:05:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah, that's always, I mean, generally, I think Hades as a character is so like, underrepresented in the actual ancient sources, but people have really tried to understand him in a way that means like, a lot of reception makes him into something a lot bigger. And I think, I think it's quite interesting to have him more as like, yeah, just a little bit more low key, you know? He's just kind of there. But Penelope, or Persephone is the one who's like, in charge of the dead. And, and, because she's, I just remember so specifically that it's like her, she who sends the, the women out. She's like, it's like Persephone sent the women to Odysseus to tell their stories. And it's just, I'm obsessed with that.

• 1:06:33Speaker 06

  It's, it's amazing. It just makes the mind boggle as, as well. Just thinking, I mean, if, if this goddess has the ability to do that, then exactly what kind of free will or agency do the deads actually have? What, what kind of abilities is there, um, available when we actually do reach that, uh, that inevitable end?

• 1:06:49Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, okay. I'm just generally curious about, I mean, anything else you have. But like, specifically, I think of, if I'm just thinking of like, the, the ghosts down there, I do love when Agamemnon is like, so mad at his wife for, for her, you know, just the little incident in the bath. Um, and it's just been fascinating to me that, like, do you have any thoughts on, like, how, I guess, Agamemnon would know that his wife did it because she killed him. But like, he does seem to have a lot of still kind of knowledge about what was happening, you know, beyond. And he's just, I don't know. Do you have any thoughts, I guess, on like, how the gods interact with the, the still living world?

• 1:07:30Liv Albert?

  And, and whether we think like, they get to like, watch and know kind of what's going on, I guess, is what I'm asking?

• 1:07:36Speaker 06

  Oh, interesting question. Um, so whether the gods do or whether Agamemnon.

• 1:07:40Liv Albert?

  Sorry, yeah, the, the ghosts do. I keep saying gods instead of ghosts. And I think it's just because I use the word gods too much in my work.

• 1:07:46Speaker 06

  It's, it's absolutely fine. But potato, potato.

• 1:07:51Speaker 06

  Um, well, that's a really interesting question. I think that's actually fascinating. I'd never really considered that before, but I think there's an element of, um,

• 1:08:02Speaker 06

  That's a really interesting question. I have to get back to that because there's really interesting elements of hindsight there, isn't there? That actually that Agamemnon seems to have a lot of understanding as to what it is that his wife actually does. But of course, we can't necessarily presume he has that same knowledge when he is when he is alive. So that indicates there's an interesting elements of superior of superior knowledge there. That's fascinating. I do remember there was, I can't remember the name of the scholar off the top of my head at the moment, but there was a scholar who said that it is after drinking of the blood that some that the dead aren't necessarily just restoring their own faculties, but also having a divine

• 1:08:43Speaker 06

  element of knowledge and almost slightly superior to human intellect. And that that might be an interesting idea of how it is that he's able to conjure the story. Of course, we could also make the assumption that actually he's just very resentful and is now coming up with these deductions because of what his awful wife has done. And you know what, maybe he's heard from the other shades as well. I mean, there's so much guesswork here that could be done. But it's fascinating actually to think actually how much knowledge can be gained as a shade of the worlds above. And also Anticler as well seems to know a lot about the fact that Hades is so difficult to get to as well. There seems to be a very interesting idea of not

• 1:09:26Speaker 06

  omniscience, but certainly of a sort of superior knowledge that the dead have, which I think maybe seems to be a bit of a common theme in the Odyssey.

• 1:09:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, because I mean, it's, yeah, it's interesting you say like, it also could be Agamemnon, like kind of making assumptions and things because I was gonna say, you know, he does, he really harps on how Penelope is so much better than Clytemnestra. And I just always find it entertaining. But yeah, I mean, he very much could be just like assuming that like, because he's so mad at his wife, like, oh, obviously Penelope was better. Like, she's fine. You should hold on to her, you know?

• 1:10:01Liv Albert?

  I just, I do like the way the men complain in the underworld. It's quite entertaining.

• 1:10:06Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:10:07Liv Albert?

  Right? They're just, you know, they're a little whiny. Whereas the women come in and they're like, this is my story. And then Agamemnon's like, my wife killed me and I'm so mad at her. And then Ajax also like a little bit moody, though.

• 1:10:20Speaker 06

  Oh, oh, my gosh. I've never seen some ghost salt more than Ajax.

• 1:10:24Liv Albert?

  Honestly, I wanted to get that into my book because I love it, but I also couldn't, like, the space, like length is the biggest issue. You're writing for kids. And so I was like, okay, how could I like easily convey why it is that Ajax is so mad at Odysseus without being like, okay, so here's the story about, you know, Achilles' armor and they fought over it and, you know, but but I love how moody Ajax is. And he's just like standing. So we just have in the illustration, we just have this like very tall, huge man, just like looking mad in the background. Like, that's what I can do, you know. But it is, it's such a fun elements of like, the character development, I guess, that we get in the underworld is a very sort of unique.

• 1:11:07Liv Albert?

  You get these, these bits of these characters who, you know, we would have seen from the Iliad, but are so, you know, it's so far removed now from that in a way. And, and you get to hear, like, the, yeah, the darker side. I also love that Patroclus is just like, like standing behind Achilles the whole time. Like, he doesn't say anything. He's just like there. And they just won't leave each other's sides. Like, it's cute.

• 1:11:31Speaker 06

  I know. That that scene always baffles me. The way they're presented, it's almost like kind of a high school jocks, that you have Achilles, who's like the head of the football team, and then suddenly you have his two posse behind him. It's a very strange image that I think, Patroclus, you were your own character in the Iliad.

• 1:11:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. And you're really important in the Iliad, all on your own, for sure. You know, I wonder if that's because they were buried together, you know, he just means he's like, side all the time.

• 1:11:58Speaker 06

  Now, that is, now that is fascinating. Maybe, maybe.

• 1:12:00Liv Albert?

  It's pretty cute. I, I mean, there's so many, there's so many little, so many little guys in the underworld. I'm just trying to think of, do you have any, like, I don't know, broader thoughts that I haven't touched on that that you particularly love talking about when it comes?

• 1:12:14Speaker 06

  Well, my, my gosh, there's so much that I'd like to talk about. Particularly, actually, I suppose we go on to this for ages, but I love the idea of how even the figures that aren't mentioned in Odyssey 11, actually, the Akthonic come into existence as well. So again, my, my interest is looking at how everyday experiences are blended together to formulate this whole mythical landscape. And one of the things which I think is fascinating is the idea of of death and sleep being able to do that. So in the Iliad, we don't get much of a description from them. But when we do, it's often the idea that Thanatos, death, the god death, comes, scoops up the dead and the living in their arms, turns, makes them dead, picks them up. Sarpon is taken off.

• 1:12:57Liv Albert?

  I was gonna say, I'm picturing that pottery. Oh, my gosh. You have like Thanatos carrying him.

• 1:13:03Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. But what I find so fascinating is how Homer has a really curious ability to be able to, to combine and merge together everyday experiences and cause and effects quite a lot. So one of the things which you may have seen when reading the Iliad, I'm not too sure how much it happens in the Odyssey, is this idea that death is able to be the one that blinds the person, that almost covers them and shrouds them in darkness. And one thing of this theory that I'm looking at as part of my research is the idea that actually we get that very mythical understanding from our ability to blend cause and effect together. This idea that actually one of the symptoms of dying is is being the loss of vision. And

• 1:13:42Speaker 06

  the effects of that is ultimately death. It's the, it's the, the very last effects that we have before we actually lose our lives. And so by being able to blend cause and effect together, we actually see that suddenly the death itself is the one seen as responsible for those actions. And we can make this argument by also thinking about the way we conceptualize our own emotions. Well, for instance, when we're, we're anger, we always talk about anger being, anger is heat, this idea that we're at boiling points, the idea that we blend sort of our physiological symptoms of internal body heat, and then the effects of anger, and then say that anger was responsible for that. The same is exactly the same with, with death

• 1:14:24Speaker 06

  and with sleep as well. And that these, this ability to blend then comes into generating this idea of actually not just being metaphors, but this idea of gods actually coming into existence, being able to do the very things, be the ones that responsible for these, these actions. And that's fascinating. That gives us such an insight as to how the mythical world is developed, but also how possibly there are answers to how all other forms of mythical figures come into existence from any, every other culture.

• 1:14:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Like, well beyond the Homeric, those characters have always been like a fascination of mine, like personification, deities, right, where they are just the thing, you know. And and I'm just fascinated by how that fits with like, an early civilization trying to understand what it means to be human. Like, that's what it is, right? And then using these like words that are also creatures, deities, to understand things like death and sleep. And I was just recently doing some things on, it's very Ovidian, but there's the story of Erisichthon, who eats himself. And, and they go get famine. Famine is the one who does

• 1:15:37Liv Albert?

  it to him. And all of these different, these concepts that are gods as a way to just understand being human, life and death. It's so fascinating. And I think it's so, I mean, it's so, it's so hard even to like, fully conceptualize. It's so far removed from how we imagine the world now that it, it is delightfully baffling.

• 1:16:01Speaker 06

  But again, I think that's one, and I think that actually comes into answering how we actually get Homer's version of the underworld in Odyssey 11. So I mean, the one thing, I don't know about you, if you have noticed this, but one thing that really bothered me when reading Odyssey 11 was this idea that it could be right on the very horizontal edge of the earth by Oceanus, but at the same time bafflingly below the, below the earth as well. And for ages, when I was an undergraduate reading this, I was thinking, how, how, how does this work? Is it, it's basically just Hades, like quarry mind, where you just kind of slide down from one edge and just go under. But one of the things which I think is really interesting about this is that actually, again, this comes back to this idea of blending,

• 1:16:41Speaker 06

  this idea that we blend various different conceptions of death and time together to come up with this understanding of where Hades is located. Homer often talks about the idea of time being a destination, a place. It's a place where you go to the edge of, you often come to the edge of your life. And that's very interesting because then Homer can elaborate on that and say, actually, well, you've come to the edge of your life, therefore, you've come to the edge of Hades. You've come to the edge of the underworld. And by the same respects, we have this idea of, again, blending cause and effects, idea that, well, when you're dying, you're inevitably going to fall, and you're going to be buried, swallowed up by

• 1:17:23Speaker 06

  the earth. And so therefore, Hades as the place of the underworld is suddenly given being underneath the earth. And so you can combine those two conceptions, this idea of the, the sort of the physical idea of death of actually going under the earth, to then the more conceptualized version of going towards the, the edge of your timeline, and combining those to come up this really fascinating idea of Hades actually being just on the, the very outer sphere of the mythical world, both on the very horizontal edge of it and on the vertical edge of it.

• 1:17:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I love, I mean, trying to understand all of that because then it makes me think of the later, you know, locations that they decided were entrances to the underworld and how that, I mean, it's the, the Odyssey trip to the underworld has always been interesting because it, it like, it does and doesn't fit these later ideas of how you get there, right? Because they, they have these like such famous locations where, you know, Orpheus went down to the underworld, or where Heracles did. And there's, I know, the one I can name off the top of my head is Tyrrha Ron in the southern Peloponnese. And, and that's like one of the many entrances. And I think there's another one like up in Thessaly or something. And,

• 1:18:36Liv Albert?

  you know, but then, so it's like, you know, you kind of imagine they go under from those places, but then Odysseus could sail there. And then that. You know, and it is this above and below and, and I mean, it's the underworld broadly and, and how it exists within the earth in some sort of conceptual way has always been like a sticking point for me, or, or rather like something I'm interested in because I think it, it has led to so many ideas connecting like hell with the underworld, this like Christian idea of hell. And I always want to like push back against that so much because it, it, we get this idea that like it's then a punishment because it like resembles kind of the idea of hell.

• 1:19:18Liv Albert?

  But I think in the ancient Greek, it's so interesting in that, you know, the fact that it was under the earth was not meant to be a negative. It was not meant to be part of the like punishment. It was just a practical idea of like people are buried in the earth and so that's where they live. And inside the earth is hot and a little fiery and that's not meant to be like an eternal punishment fiery. It's just like a practical inside the earth is hot and fiery. And so the underworld is hot and fiery. And, and of course hell comes from that and then becomes its own whole like moral question. But what I love about the concept of the underworld, both in Homer and, and beyond is that like, it's not a moral question, whether you're there or not, it's a practical one. Like there are places within the underworld

• 1:20:01Liv Albert?

  that you could be because of your actions morally, but it's mostly just like it's under the earth because it's under the earth.

• 1:20:11Speaker 06

  No, absolutely. But it's interesting you mention though, the, the comparison between Hades and, and hell and sort of the, the differences between, you're absolutely right to draw attention to the fact that hell is much more moralistically driven in that if you do something completely and utterly um, abhorrent, uh, immoral, irreprehensible, then you're going to hell. Whereas obviously that's not the case with, with Hades. But what I find really interesting though, is there does seem to be still a, an emotional connection to, um, to Hades where we do, um, assign it being, Hades being below the earth with very negative feelings, emotions. I mean, for instance, in, um, I think it's what, uh, verses ninety to ninety-five, um, Tyrese says, why have you come to this gruesome place? There's this really awful place to see us.

• 1:20:54Speaker 06

  Um, but why would you ever consider doing that? And, and that's quite interesting because I think one of the things that we notice with, um, essentially in cognitive theory is this idea that we always assign orientation with positive emotions. For instance, uh, we always say, um, I'm, I, I feel up today. I'm feeling happy. Um, or I'm feeling a bit low, uh, when we're talking about sadness. And it seems that's quite, um, imbued in Homer as well. When Homer talks about emotions, um, it's often the idea that his heart is feeling way down. Um, tears are, are falling from his eyes. And it, it's quite interesting when we compare that to this idea of falling, um, when death occurs and this idea that we're able to combine those two together to think that actually

• 1:21:34Speaker 06

  even though Hades is not a moral place, it's still actually quite an emotionally driven place. So that, um, the, the sort of the downward connotations of emotions, the downward connotations of death combines form this idea that actually below the earth is pretty miserable existence.

• 1:21:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah, no, and I should clarify because you're quite right. Like, and I don't, I don't mean it on that. Well, I'm more interested, I guess, in like, I like the idea that, that, I mean, death is like the underworld is a negative place because death was negative, you know, but again, it like, it lacks. I guess the, the big thing for me that, what I just like, don't care for in the Christian imagination is this idea that like the choices you make will determine whether you get to go up or down, you know, whereas I, what I, there, what I love about the underworld is that, yeah, like it is dark, it's dreary, it's not nice. But that's not because you did something bad. It's because it's sad to be dead. And they also like could see

• 1:22:31Liv Albert?

  the earth and would know that it would be dark and it would be dreary and it would be hot and maybe it would be wet. And like, those are all things that are based in like a natural understanding of like the physical world as opposed to a punishment for what you did. Whereas obviously there are punishments, but it takes a lot. Like you gotta be tantalous in order to be punished.

• 1:22:51Speaker 06

  Exactly. Or Sisyphus was the Tyus.

• 1:22:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's so fascinating. Whereas like, yeah, everyone's down there. But like, if you were a bad person, you have a bad time down there.

• 1:23:03Speaker 06

  Yeah. My God, you, you, I, I always like this. If you go into the underworld in Homer and you think, my God, this is so shitty. You think, you think that's bad. You should see these three guys.

• 1:23:11Liv Albert?

  Exactly. Yeah. It could be worse.

• 1:23:14Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:16Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:17Speaker 06

  He's like, once Python, always look on the bright side of life. Just.

• 1:23:21Liv Albert?

  No, and it's funny because they do have like, you know, I, I, I feel the same way about when people, when the translators will translate like,

• 1:23:30Liv Albert?

  you know, Olympus or something in the sky to being heaven. And I'm just like, it's not like, we don't need to make this moral. Like it's the gods lived in the sky because the gods lived like outside of the earth or, you know, it's just interesting to me to come at these things from a practical human understanding level. Like that's what I love. I want to understand where they came up with it and why. And like, it, it just lacks the kind of like, yeah, moral rules that come with like later, more organized, at least, you know, Judeo-Christian religions.

• 1:23:59Speaker 06

  Absolutely. I mean, to, to be fair, I, I always sort of saw, um, it being quite classist, I think, Homer in many ways. I mean, this idea that Menelaus was suddenly going to be going to the, um, the Elysian fields because he was by marriage, uh, married to, married to Helen, who was also linked to Zeus. I mean, you think, my, my goodness. I mean, this is, this is really social climbing.

• 1:24:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's nepotism more than anything.

• 1:24:22Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 1:24:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And I think that's so indicative of like the Greek world and Greek myth in that world, you know, it's like, are you a hero? Great. Then you're going to the Elysian fields. Did you kill a bazillion people? No problem. You're a hero. You're going to the Elysian fields. You know, and it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting that it is really more about fame and accomplishments as opposed to any kind of like moral clarity.

• 1:24:47Speaker 06

  No, absolutely. And I, I think that's also quite an interesting idea as to how we get to this idea of actually what it means to, um, to be a person in Homer, which is that actually a lot of, there, there's an interesting, um, debate by, um, Damien Stocking, who said that a lot of the time, the way that identity is tied is tied through the physical actions of, uh, many of Homer's characters. And I think that the idea of chaos, this idea of immortal fame, coming from those physical actions is a way of really tying one's identity down and being able to preserve this, um, continued existence even after, after death. So it, it, it's fascinating. That raises a whole number of, um, philosophical questions of actually, what does it mean to be, to exist? And often that is from the, the physical actions of, um, all the soldiers, all of the, uh, the characters in Homer's world.

• 1:25:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And it's a good reminder of like how the word hero evolved and kind of what it originally implicated, which was not moral clarity. It was accomplishments and fame. You know, that's what made you a hero. You didn't necessarily have to always be a good person. And I'm just generally fascinated by that because our, the modern imagination has shifted it so much. Like that was, you know, we talk about love and hating Odysseus, like that was so, that was a key piece when I wanted to do this kid's book. I was like, I need them all to love him, but them to also understand that he's terrible. And both of those things can be true at once, you know, he did some good things and he did some awful things. And like, it's okay that we sit with that because I think

• 1:26:15Liv Albert?

  modern narratives and the modern imagination, often because of like more modern religious structures, like have this idea that you have to be either good or bad and there's nothing in between. And it's so much more interesting to me to be looking at these people who were human and they were famous. So we call them a hero, but like, you don't need to think that that means they were inherently a good person.

• 1:26:35Speaker 06

  No, absolutely. And I, I think that's quite a, a common theme that comes out even by, um, today's standards or Victorian standards. I mean, we have the idea of the Byronic hero. We have, uh, we have Heathcliff as well, who personally I despise with a passion. I've, I've heard so many people talk about Heathcliff. It's this, this very wonderful character.

• 1:26:51Liv Albert?

  No, no, I, I know. And somebody who has, yeah, no, I, I mean, my other life was an English degree and my God, Wuthering Heights, I do not understand the fact that they still tried to make a movie that looked romantic is like, are you high? And also can you stop whitewashing this character who is very explicitly brown?

• 1:27:11Liv Albert?

  But no, it's so funny you say that. I'm just gonna, this is like a weird, deep cut personal life. I literally last night was Googling what it meant to be a Byronic hero because I've been obsessively watching the UK ghosts show because it's delightful. I don't know if you know it.

• 1:27:25Speaker 06

  I, I do not know. So I'm sorry.

• 1:27:27Liv Albert?

  It's a BBC show. It's utterly delightful. I assume it's BBC. Anyway, it's really good. It's about ghosts, but it's really British. And one of the ghosts is from Byron's time and hates Byron and is like constantly. And I, the, because of, I just spend so much time in Greece. My association with Byron is now really tied to how much Greece loves him as like a cultural hero. But then everyone else kind of talks about him like he was a dick. And I was Googling what, what the depths of Byron. So just having you reference that, I'm like, oh, this world's colliding. I'm out here like trying to remind myself what it means to be Byronic. But it's an example of, yeah, like obnoxious heroes.

• 1:28:06Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And, and, and yet we can still come to form a, a slight appreciation for that. I mean, even by, um, today's standards, we look, think of, I know, shows like Breaking Bad for instance, or, or Game, or Game of Thrones, when we have, uh, Walter White or Jamie Lannister. I mean, still, these are really quite morally contemptful people. And yet at the same time, we can un, understand them. I think there's a really interesting idea of um, people being able to resonate at some level with these as well. That even though he does these abhorrent things, we can still also see the, the developments of, um, and the, the other positive elements of his character as well. The, the, the determination, even if that determination also involves him being quite dreadful.

• 1:28:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. Like he just, he contains multitudes. We can, we can love him for all of them. Yeah, it's, I just, I love that so much more than this idea that like, in order to be a hero, you just had to do good things. Like I'm so fascinated by, yeah, Odysseus is. A wild man, like half the time you love him and the other half, you're like, dude, what are you doing? Like, because I did this book club and so we were, uh, it was the last chapter and so they were reading the last chapter of my Odyssey to the, to the kids and we, we got to the, the part where Odysseus returns to his dad. And he's basically like, ah, I could tell him the truth. Or how about like one more big lie just for fun?

• 1:29:24Liv Albert?

  Like, and then he lies to his dad for absolutely no good reason. And you're like, all right, now this is just who you are. And like, I love that. Would I like to be around you as a person? No, but I love reading about it.

• 1:29:39Speaker 06

  Oh, fantastic.

• 1:29:41Liv Albert?

  Uh, um, the, like, I don't know, the underworld itself or like these connections to, um, the blending and everything like, I, I mean, uh, I've kept you for an hour and a half, so we could wrap up in theory, but also if you want to share more, I'm down for it.

• 1:29:57Speaker 06

  No, absolutely. Um, I suppose the thing which I'm currently trying to grapple with is how we, I talked a little bit earlier about this idea of continued existence or how exactly does existence continue even after death? Um, there's a very interesting idea here of actually, well, what is it exactly that descends to the underworld? And there seems to be a variety of different names for what it is actually to be a resident in Hades. At some point, there's this view of, um, the idea that it's the shade, that the Sukai that goes to Hades, the Adolon, um,

• 1:30:27Liv Albert?

  Thank you for saying that in Greek. Sorry, I have to sit with that for a sec because I was literally about to say like, yeah, when do we get this idea of like the soul? But then you say Sukai, and so I know, okay, that's more of like word evolving as opposed to.

• 1:30:41Speaker 06

  Oh, oh, absolutely. And, and this exactly comes back to my idea of, um, of, this is one thing I'm, I'm arguing in this chapter that I'm writing at the moment. But, um, one thing which is really interesting is again, how this idea of, um, not the soul. I'll say the soul for one of a better expression for, for the listeners, but, um, essentially the Sukai is much more complicated than that. Um, Sukai essentially is a last breath that then becomes a metaphor for life. Essentially, it, in the same way, we say, uh, non till I, non till my last breath. It, it, it's equivalent to that phrase where we use last breath as a, an expression to stand for life. And Homer uses that in a very similar way where he talks about, um, the Sukai as something that's breathed out in, um, synchropl moments and moments of unconsciousness.

• 1:31:24Speaker 06

  But the cause and effects of that and actually dying of actually losing consciousness and dying, then means that it starts to evolve to meaning, um, a life force. And it's very interesting is that when soldiers talk to other soldiers about wanting to kill the other person, they talk about life as a valuable object. Um, and it's really interesting, there's a, a wonderful study by Douglas Cairns on this of how, um, the Sukai is seen as a metaphor of a rarefied object, as something that can be grasped and taken. And what we see actually is that this then involves this idea of it being comparable to a form of armor, where actually one of the, the customs of soldier was that once you've killed someone, you take their armor, give it away as dedication to gods, give it away as something that can be

• 1:32:05Speaker 06

  shown to other people, give it as an offering, case in point with Achilles, um, uh, Odysseus getting Achilles armor. And this actually gives a really interesting idea of post mortem survival, which is that the Sukai is then seen in the same vein as metaphorically being given to Hades. It's seen as an object which can be given. And this then involves this idea that actually it's the person's life which goes to Hades. And again, blending cause and effect, this idea of what happens after, um, death occurs, this, this life force given, people weep. We can then blend the two together so that actually the Sukai becomes this weeping figure. And then from that evolves then this idea that actually the Sukai is this, um, almost lifelike replica of the living person.

• 1:32:45Speaker 06

  And it's fascinating seeing how this evolution, this story comes about of how we get these ideas in the first place.

• 1:32:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Okay, just for the listeners, I want to make sure that they understand and also that I'm not miss hearing the Greek word because sometimes that happens. But you are saying essentially what we would say in English as psyche, right? Like the character.

• 1:33:04Speaker 06

  Yes, um, to clarify for the listeners, no, the, um, the psyche as we understand it today is not the same to the psyche.

• 1:33:10Liv Albert?

  No, but like the word.

• 1:33:12Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:33:13Liv Albert?

  Like the spelling in the Greek would be like Sukai, like psyche.

• 1:33:16Speaker 06

  Exactly. Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

• 1:33:18Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Okay. So it really is like, it's shade, it's soul, it's life force, it's like all of these things that then, yeah, lead far off into the word, that becomes like psychology, like I just.

• 1:33:29Speaker 06

  Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That, that's, that's just evolved from our ability to do this process of blending.

• 1:33:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, I'm so fascinated by that because as soon as you said shade, I was about to ask like, what's the word? Because where do we get in, where does, you know, Sukai come in? So I'm glad you said the Greek because it's, I don't know Greek well enough, but I know enough. Like, oh, it's, yeah, that's, oh, I love those like word evolutions and stuff too. My gosh.

• 1:33:54Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. But then, I mean, what's fascinating about that is that one of the questions that we then have to raise when looking at this is thinking, well, actually, do, is it the Sukai that goes? And, but also in other times, we see that it's the named individual that goes to Hades. It's often, um, for instance, Odysseus, when he's confronting Polyphemus, says that, I wish that you'd be deprived of your psyche, but you yourself go to, um, to Hades. And that raises a bunch of questions, which is actually, I don't know, which is contradictory. How, how do we grapple with that contradiction? And again, but I, the position I would always hold myself in is that this comes from this semantic evolution, which is that one things that we notice, um, and we can use one day examples to, to make this case,

• 1:34:37Speaker 06

  is that we often refer to our whole selves to describe the actions of a particular part of ourselves. For instance, when we're saying, um, to give a good example, um, we'll often say, um, uh, I am kicking the ball, uh, when actually it's one of our legs that's doing the kicking. Um, it, we, we often use constructions like that and Homer is very similar in doing that where he'll talk about, um, the named individual to describe a particular aspect of, um, a, a certain body part. And so when we think of that and this idea that actually the life force is dedicated to Hades, um, Homer describes it as actually the whole self that's being given to Hades. And then that leads to this evolution thinking, well, actually it is the person, then not the soul that goes into the afterlife.

• 1:35:20Speaker 06

  And so again, it's this wonderful evolution of these different, um, this sort of semantic development that comes up, these branching off, these wonderful concepts of what actually life after death looks like.

• 1:35:31Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, it's so fun. I, I wish there was more in the underworld. I think that's what I always want, or like more Homeric references to it. Cause I just want, I just want more, not even like that I want to know more. I just, I want more to go through, you know? Like, I mean, that's true of all Homer, I think, I just would like 10 more FX, please.

• 1:35:53Liv Albert?

  Cause it's just, it's so fascinating. It's so amorphous. It's so like, I love, or I guess like, maybe I'm curious too, uh, about like the construction of the underworld, how you see it, you know? It, because it does take so many different forms and, you know, it's, you know, I don't even know really what I want to know. I'm really, I'm curious about everything generally, but I love the rivers, I think is what I'm like, I don't know. Do you have more thoughts on what it, what it means in relation to that or like living among that?

• 1:36:24Speaker 06

  Well, uh, that, that's a really interesting question, actually. So I've always seen that rivers have, um, sort of been entered into the underworld. I think again, from this association of, um, this imagery of Homeric battlefields. The, if we think, for instance, of the rivers of Scamander, for example, uh, in the Iliad. Um, that is one of the, the key areas where death occurs. It's seen as a, a, I think there's one passage, I can't remember exactly the, the book in the Iliad, where it, it's almost a bloodbath. It becomes a river that has, uh, shells of, of bloods coming through. And I think one of the things that's fascinating as well is that rivers also form a, a bit of a boundary between one landscape to another. And this idea of death, um, being a, a fundamental location in Homer's repertoire,

• 1:37:08Speaker 06

  that he can then exploit that to then include the rivers in Hades. So not only did they become a, a demarcation, so to speak, of the living from the dead. Like for instance, a river can demarcate different landscapes, but it also because of its association uh, as a location of death, then also gets entered into as being this really interesting, uh, chthonic landscape in the underworld.

• 1:37:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah, ooh, and then, I mean, and also, you know, rivers have such ties to like divine figures too. I mean, you know, Achilles fights Scamandros, the river, right? Like, there, there's, they kind of have these like divine sort of like anthropomorphic elements too, which I imagine adds some things to that, like, you know, all the river gods and, and I mean, Styx being like not just a goddess, but like a primordial, you know, river goddess. It's, there's just so many, I guess, elements and everything has divine elements in, in this realm that we're talking about. But I especially love the ways that the rivers are often personified. And yeah, I mean, Scamandros overflowing with blood. And that reminds

• 1:38:14Liv Albert?

  me too of, you know, it's only surviving in the Thebaid, I imagine, um, the epic poem by Statius, but so it's so late. But there's also a scene there where a river gets completely overtaken by bodies and blood. And, and so, yeah, I never really thought about that as, as such a location for death, but it makes so much sense for why it would make it fit so perfectly into the landscape of the underworld.

• 1:38:45Speaker 06

  Fantastic.

• 1:38:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, it's, I am obsessed with all of it.

• 1:38:49Speaker 06

  We could honestly be here for ages. There's so, there's so much that I could say on this, on this topic. But I honestly don't want to keep our listeners from having an existential crisis by listening to all of my comments.

• 1:38:59Liv Albert?

  They wouldn't. They wouldn't. That's why they're here. But I mean, truly, this has been so utterly fascinating. And when you have that book done, please come back and tell me even more.

• 1:39:11Speaker 06

  Fantastic. Well, I, I hope to invite you and loads of other people to the book launch.

• 1:39:15Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah, you told me about that. You did. No, it's, I, yeah, I'm so thrilled. I love when anyone is doing work on the underworld and on ghosts and all of those goodies. And oh my God, it's just delightful. So I'm so glad to have chatted with you. Thank you so much for giving us your time and all of your insights.

• 1:39:34Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me on.

• 1:39:36Liv Albert?

  It's, it's very fun. I truly, I, I just put a call out in my episode I released with, with Charlotte Spence yesterday, but I'll put it out here too. Other, other experts in fun, nerdy things, come on my show. I promise it's fun.

• 1:39:50Speaker 06

  It really is.

• 1:39:51Liv Albert?

  Thank you. Thank you. I didn't, didn't mean to force you into saying so, but I, I think we had a great time.

• 1:39:57Speaker 06

  I'm not being sponsored at all.

• 1:40:00Liv Albert?

  No, I'm so appreciative for this. I'm so thrilled with this conversation. Is there anything you want to share with my listeners about like where they can learn more from you or, or anything that sort of follow you or whatever?

• 1:40:10Speaker 06

  Oh, fascinating. As far as research goes, um, I would say just keep reading, um, The Odyssey. Look at, I, I often think looking at scholarly articles is the best way to do it. I think they come up with so much more interesting interpretations. And that then leads to this rabbit hole of actually really nerding out on some of the most fascinating topics of The Odyssey.

• 1:40:29Liv Albert?

  It sounds like what I get out of having these conversations.

• 1:40:33Liv Albert?

  I'm in full support of that. And also just reading The Odyssey. Everyone should read The Odyssey all the time.

• 1:40:38Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 1:40:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah. If you're too young to read the full thing, check out mine. And if not, pick up a great translation and read The Odyssey. Or The Ancient Greek God, even better.

• 1:40:48Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, always, always.

• 1:40:50Liv Albert?

  Anyway, I could talk about that forever. Um, truly, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on the show and, and telling me about all of these underworld goodies.

• 1:40:59Speaker 06

  Oh, thank you for having me on. It's been an absolute pleasure.

• 1:41:01Liv Albert?

  I'm so glad.

• 1:41:17Speaker 00

  Oh, nerds, thank you as always for listening. I am so thrilled to have had a couple of new Halloween spooky Halloween episodes for you. I hope to get right back into that tradition. But for now, this is the 10th year of spooky season and I can't quite believe it. I'll be back with more new stuff soon. Um, probably not on Tuesday because I'll be literally flying home from Greece and experiencing major jet lag. But the following week, we'll be back and I'll drop you a really special weird re-air to cover next week. Thank you all so damn much.

• 1:42:01Speaker 00

  Less Huckle Myth Babies, written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Select music is by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, where we are trying to bring you curated, careful, uh, empathetic, knowledgeable content about the ancient world. Find all the shows and all the information at memory collect, no, at collectivemem.com. Thank you all so damn much for listening. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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• 1:43:49Liv Albert?

  This December, the magic of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol returns to Virginia Repertory Theater in downtown Richmond. Experience the transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge as he's visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future, and rediscovers the joy and true meaning of the holiday season. Performances run November 18th through December 27th. Tickets on sale now at virginiarep.org or by calling 804-282-2620.

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• 1:45:20Liv Albert?

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• 1:45:47Liv Albert?

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