Episode 683: Clifford Olson Part II - Senator Rabbit

The boys continue the story of Clifford Olson as “Senator Rabbit” snitches, scams, and charms his way through Canada’s revolving prison doors, taking full advantage of every second chance as his crimes take an increasingly dark turn.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Marcus Parks?

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:02Speaker 02

  There's no place to escape to.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  This is the last. On the left.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  That's when the cannibalism started.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  We like, we like, we, well, we don't take Canadians seriously. No. Oh, he's like, ah, cute. What are you gonna do, fucking fur beaver at me? Oh, great. Oh, you're angry? Oh, no, what are you gonna do? You're gonna not have second breakfast? Oh, you're so angry, you can't eat? Your, your pipe weed ran out? Is that your problem, Mr. Canadian? Is that why you're so irritable? Because you can't have your, you can't have your big second lunch with the big soup out of a big old gourd filled with like meat and beans and stuff? And then you eat and you go, oh, I should hope that's enough for everyone. And then everyone goes like, oh, yeah, of course, our favorite hobby in Canada is sharing. And then everybody goes, and then like the biggest problem is the guy finishes the gourd full of soup first, and he's gotta go to the soup center and get his soup for everybody

• 2:05Speaker 01

  else in the fucking village.

• 2:08Marcus Parks?

  Did we catch all that, Rob? Welcome to Last Podcast on the Left, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Marcus Parks.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Wow, that was part of the show. I just thought you were ranting.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I was, hey. There was, no, I hadn't got it. No, I was just talking about Canadians in America, they get off scot-free.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I remember them down in South Florida showing up bigger than us. That was very aggravating.

• 2:29Marcus Parks?

  What do you mean bigger than you?

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Bigger than us.

• 2:31Speaker 04

  They're big. They're bigger. They're big. They come down, we, you know, I, us Floridians, we ain't too tiny.

• 2:38Marcus Parks?

  No.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  You know, but those Canadians, they come down there, once, once February hits.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Snowbird season.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  It's a lot of white.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, buddy. Marcus, you don't understand the pearlescent skin of a Canadian.

• 2:54Marcus Parks?

  No, not at all.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  On a clear water beach.

• 2:55Marcus Parks?

  No, all I know is the red, red burnt skin of a Texan.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  You look like, um, never seen the show, but you know, I've seen those statue things in Doctor Who.

• 3:06Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're talking about the weeping angels?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yes, their color, it's almost like.

• 3:10Marcus Parks?

  Porcelain.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Marble.

• 3:12Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  And they're not nice.

• 3:14Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  The traveling ones aren't nice. The ones that stay home in Canada, those are the nice ones.

• 3:20Marcus Parks?

  You know what it is, is that I think they come to America for like mean tourism. They can come here and to try out being mean for a little while.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Especially Florida.

• 3:28Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  And there's always one fat one and one skinny one, and they're together.

• 3:32Marcus Parks?

  Why is that?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know why.

• 3:34Marcus Parks?

  What is with it?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I think one has to wipe the other one's ass.

• 3:37Marcus Parks?

  I don't know.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I don't know what it is.

• 3:39Marcus Parks?

  I find that the Canadian woman has a taste.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42Marcus Parks?

  That's very exotic.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, if she's thin, she likes them big. If she's big, she likes them tiny.

• 3:48Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Well, I guess it works. Everyone finds a mate.

• 3:52Marcus Parks?

  We have two Canadian experts with us, Henry Zebrowski and Ed Larson.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  I lived there for six whole months.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I sold them a shit ton of chicken wings.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  And if you don't know somebody from how they take their chicken wing order and how they receive a chicken wing order and then how they eat said chicken wings, you don't know them at all. Yeah, no, no, no, they, they, some of them swallow the bones.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  That's where the good marrow is. You see what you're doing wrong there when you're eating a chicken wing is that you're gonna wanna take a whole bite of the bone and all, like you're an ogre from a fairy tale.

• 4:30Marcus Parks?

  And we're here speaking of ogres, Clifford Olson, part two. So when we last left.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Before we get started.

• 4:36Marcus Parks?

  Uh huh.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  I haven't, I haven't seen an image of him. Is he a big guy, a little guy?

• 4:40Marcus Parks?

  No, no, he's about, he goes about 5'6", 5'7".

• 4:42Speaker 04

  He's thin.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Little guy, dark hair, dark curls.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Okay, this is good.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Five o'clock shadow.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  So he's like their, like night crawler.

• 4:49Marcus Parks?

  I wouldn't say thin, I would.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Stalker.

• 4:51Marcus Parks?

  I mean, I would put him more, and he actually kinda has a hobbitish look.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 4:56Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  He's in a, he looks like he's never skipped an elevensies.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  Do you think you could out dig him?

• 5:02Marcus Parks?

  Uh, yeah, yeah, I think I could.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  Hell, yeah.

• 5:05Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, no, cause like, well, but.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  He did do a heck of a lot of digging, I'll tell you that, yeah.

• 5:09Marcus Parks?

  Unfortunately, though, uh, my height does really work against me in my digging endurance.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:17Marcus Parks?

  Because I get the, I get the back problems because I have to go further down to get to the ground.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why it's better for, it's hobbit-like behavior, it's good for those of us who are burrowing people, like Eastern Europeans. Eddie and I were both built to be subterranean root farmers.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  I really feel like he misses calling, he, he looks like every stand-up that ever makes it.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Let's just say, Eddie, there's a lot of stand-ups that have a lot of similar behavior to Clifford Olson. So it's not too far off.

• 5:48Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, you say, yeah, but he used to run an open mic at the Grizzly Pear.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he definitely has a, what I'd call a Delia-esque vibe.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, man, I've fired so many people that look just like him.

• 5:59Marcus Parks?

  So have I.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, he looks like a line cook with a pass.

• 6:06Marcus Parks?

  So when we last left Clifford Olson, Canada's dime store joker had been sniffed out by two police dogs named Rinty and Tiger after Clifford and a friend robbed a Safeway for $89 in coins. The Safeway robbery had marked the end of Clifford's latest manic crime spree, his second crime spree in 1964 alone. But this spree was merely one of dozens that Clifford would embark upon throughout his life. Loved a crime spree.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Didn't they say up to the time he was caught, I think I heard a statistic that he was only out of jail for like 1,700 days of his life?

• 6:46Marcus Parks?

  It was, by the, after he had gotten arrested, um, I think by the time he was like 40, he'd spent half of his life in prison.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:56Marcus Parks?

  Like out of the 23 years, but of the 23 years since his first arrest, half of it had been spent in prison.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Good for him. Yeah, no, no, no, someone's gotta be in there. Those beds don't, you know, they get sad when they're empty.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Like in Beauty and the Beast.

• 7:12Marcus Parks?

  But since Clifford had committed these crimes after escaping prison for the umpteenth time, Clifford was sentenced to seven years for this particular jaunt. Like most career criminals, though, prison only gave Clifford opportunities to hone his criminal craft, and he honed it with gusto. So as opposed to a lot of convicts who end up spending half their lives in prison, Clifford was never downtrodden when it came time for a lockup. Clifford was said to be energetic and cheerful throughout every sentence he served, because he always knew that he was either gonna charm or break his way out of prison long before he served his full sentence. In fact, I think Clifford Olson learned that having a positive attitude did wonders to further his narcissistic agendas.

• 7:56Marcus Parks?

  Cause one thing I've noticed about narcissists is that they often use so-called positivity as a smokescreen. If you hear someone say they love everyone, fucking run the other way.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  He's also the type that, um, to be honest, it is, I'm gonna, gonna keep going on my leet motif of what Clifford Olson represents within the Canadian true crime world and within the Canadian justice system is a true demonic perversion of their goofiness.

• 8:25Marcus Parks?

  Yes.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  They, he has weaponized their goofiness against them. They have never really experienced this before. I really believe this. This is why he was able to walk over everybody.

• 8:36Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Cause they're like, oh, no, he reminds me of my cousin Dave. You know what I mean? Literally, it's like why people vote for fucking Trump and shit. They're literally in their heads, they attach a toxic member, somebody to it, and then they're like, oh, he's just like my old buddy.

• 8:48Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, I love that guy. Even though that guy's fucked me over tons of times, I still love him.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  He's funny.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's funny. He brings coffee to work.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Which is awesome about being funny.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  It really does help you, yeah, we got, we got such beautiful wives.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  It's so awesome. Get away with fucking everything.

• 9:04Marcus Parks?

  But part of the reason why Clifford was able to be positive and live for the moment was because he rarely, if ever, reflected upon his own past deeds. Olson had no morals or anything resembling a conscience. As a true narcissistic sociopath, Olson believed in nothing, and he only expressed decent emotions when it was expected of him or if it was useful in a larger game of manipulation. But concerning Olson's time in prison, his ability to manipulate people would only take him so far, because while he was great at manipulation, he was often not successful when it came to fully executing his plans to the end. For example, during a stretch in the mid 1960s, Olson convinced someone from the outside

• 9:47Marcus Parks?

  to smuggle a fucking gun into Clifford's prison by taping the weapon to the steering column of the prison doctor's car. But when Olson went out to retrieve the gun, it fell into the floorboard in plain sight and Clifford was caught.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Oh, no, what, oh, oh, no, my pantomime became real. This is all about pantomime. So can't blame a guy for trying.

• 10:16Marcus Parks?

  Like he did do, that is how he sort of like, oh, oh.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  What if I'm the Green Lantern? What if it's me?

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's like an animaniac.

• 10:28Marcus Parks?

  But even though the plan failed, it still showed how many layers Clifford's plans had. Because in order for this to work, Clifford would have also had to manipulate a third person into giving him permission to actually go out to the prison doctor's car to get the gun. There's multiple layers going on here. Now Clifford Olson probably wanted the gun in prison because he was not what you'd call popular on the inside. See, even though Olsen hadn't-

• 10:54Speaker 01

  He was having sex with guys, right?

• 10:56Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, well, he was raping guys.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Oh. With the help of other guys. But then the thing is, is that when-

• 11:01Marcus Parks?

  Well, sometimes with the help of other guys. That one time, he was just joining in. It wasn't really with the help of, it was more just taking advantage of.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was like the D'Artagnan of the group. Yeah. See, right. But yeah, and then otherwise, yeah, I think he did that. I think that it's honor amongst prison rapists is really, it's not really there.

• 11:18Marcus Parks?

  No.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  I don't think they stick together.

• 11:20Marcus Parks?

  I don't think so, no. Well, even though Olsen hadn't ever been convicted of raping children or teenagers, he'd certainly been arrested for it. Child molesters aren't any more popular in Canadian prisons than their American counterparts. Although in Canada, molesters are known as Skinner's.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Ew.

• 11:37Marcus Parks?

  And we call them short eyes here.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Short eyes, chomos, chicken, chicken necks, or chicken heads.

• 11:42Marcus Parks?

  Chicken, I think chicken hawks.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Chicken hawks.

• 11:43Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  All these things are too cute.

• 11:45Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Every single one of those is way too Canadian.

• 11:48Marcus Parks?

  Well, we got a little Skinner coming.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the victims are cute.

• 11:52Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:54Marcus Parks?

  Well, I guess that's the transference then, isn't it?

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Yes. That's how I see it.

• 12:02Marcus Parks?

  Well, because Olsen was indeed a Skinner, he was under constant threat of attack from inmates who admitted their personal mission to beat and/or murder child molesters on the inside. Now Olsen was nothing if not concerned with self-preservation, so he quickly figured out that the best way for him to survive his incredibly frequent stretches in prison was to become the ultimate rat. Reportedly, Olsen ratted out every inmate he could for any infraction. This made him even more unpopular amongst prisoners. But it of course did not come without consequence. After Olsen ratted on a prisoner during this stretch, the inmate took a hammer and smashed it in Olsen's skull. Olsen, however, said that when he was struck with the hammer, he felt no pain.

• 12:47Marcus Parks?

  He said he actually felt nothing at all, adding, quote-

• 12:49Speaker 01

  It was funny, and kind of interesting.

• 12:52Marcus Parks?

  Kinda.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  It was, yeah. I thought, oh, what a fun social experiment, hit me with a hammer. Oh, wow, I guess I'm a nail. It just really worked for me.

• 13:01Marcus Parks?

  Olsen also didn't hold the hammer attack against his fellow inmate. He just shrugged his shoulders and said, "These things happen."

• 13:07Speaker 01

  If I was him, I'd hit me with a hammer. You know? Look at that thing, huh? Oh, wow. Oh, look at that.

• 13:16Marcus Parks?

  But the lesson Clifford Olson took from this incident was not that snitches get stitches. Instead, Olsen began to think that a hammer would be a great weapon for killing someone.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  I just got an idea.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  That the guy broke the light bulb that went off.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 13:34Marcus Parks?

  Well, he thought it'd be the perfect weapon because his own experience had convinced him that it was a humane and painless way to take someone down.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  That gun's no good, you gotta use the hammer. Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  So do you think, like, he got really hurt? Or you think the guy, like, kinda like fucked up and missed him a little bit or something?

• 13:51Marcus Parks?

  I think he got, I think he got brained. I think he got knocked out, at the very least. But I think he got knocked out to the point where, uh, he did not feel the actual blow. It hurt later, but not when it happened.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  I actually think, I might be entirely wrong in this, but side stories, L.P.O.T.L. at gmail dot com, but I do believe one of the exam, one of the symptoms of psychopathy is responding less to pain. And I, I think that is one, that I don't, I might not be, I might be wrong, but I do think that that's a part of it, is that he so doesn't care that it doesn't even matter. It's like what weed, like how weed stops pain, where weed doesn't, like, it's not like a, uh, when you do something that's like an, uh, something that's a, uh, opium base or whatever that's called.

• 14:35Marcus Parks?

  Opia?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, an opiate. When it, when it's not that, it, like, weed more just makes you not care that you're in pain.

• 14:41Marcus Parks?

  I do know that people who can't feel pain have less fear.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:47Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  As they should.

• 14:47Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, they have, like, people who have, like, conditions, neurological conditions in which they can't feel pain, they just, they just have very little fear, which is strange, but-

• 14:57Speaker 04

  I could see him having that.

• 14:58Marcus Parks?

  Well, you know, pain is the thing that teaches us fear. The first thing.

• 15:01Speaker 04

  Fear is the mind killer.

• 15:02Marcus Parks?

  That's right.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  And the hammer, too.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Whoa, you're already prophetic. That's dude, you fucking nerd. You fucking big ol' sticky ass nerd.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  Actually, I was quoting the characters with Henry Zebrowski.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Thank you. Someone's got to. Jomji's coming back.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  As I saw.

• 15:19Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, just three, four more years.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  They'll be able to come right back around.

• 15:23Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, you'll come right back in there.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  They, their note was more Jomji. They said specifically, they wanted more. It's Netflix. I'm talking to you fucking Netflix, big ol' fucking daddy. You told me you wanted Jomji. That was a big note on the script. And then all of a sudden, they pretend like, oh, Mr. Oh, in a way, begging me for Jomji.

• 15:48Marcus Parks?

  Now although Clifford presented himself as happy in prison, he also worked constantly to get himself out. He escaped again and again, but was always captured within days, if not hours. When escape didn't work, Olsen began constantly applying for parole, but his requests during this stretch were rejected for good reason. One parole session, for example, only lasted 30 seconds because Olsen had been caught raping a fellow inmate just before his hearing began.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  I lost track of time. I hate this. You know, I actually need to be, I think a big thing here is that no one wants to acknowledge how I have undiagnosed ADHD.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, we gotta make this quick, buddy.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Indeed, I have A.D.H.D.

• 16:30Marcus Parks?

  Thing is, you give me an appointment for three, I'm not gonna be able to do anything all day long because I'm gonna be waiting for the appointment at three.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Time blindness.

• 16:42Marcus Parks?

  Well, seeing that the parole board was a bust, Olsen started writing letters to politicians and celebrities, enthusiastically lobbying for himself regarding leniency in sentencing or support in his next parole hearing. I don't even know which Canadian celebrities he wrote to.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  I'd love to know for sure.

• 16:58Marcus Parks?

  Well, it is 1962, so did Canada have celebrities in 60, 64?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, um, there was Johnny Snows, the guy that, he was famous for rolling a giant, just barrel places.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  There was that one dog that was governor. Uh, I do believe, yeah, and then the Oilers. Yeah, and the Guess Who?

• 17:24Marcus Parks?

  Very good.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Wow. That is an obscure fucking pull-up.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  That was very good, that's why you're here.

• 17:31Marcus Parks?

  Well, his correspondence with politicians earned him a second nickname, Senator. And when that nickname was combined with the one he'd earned for his many escape attempts, he was indeed dubbed Senator Rabbit. Again, it's far too cute, like, nah, Jeffrey Dimer's his street name, in prison, we call him the President of Chocolate.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Well, he's the closest one we know in the chocolate industry. So it does make sense. Plus he has sex with men.

• 17:59Marcus Parks?

  With, with, with black men. He does, we all know he prefers black men to double entendre. It's a little, you know, it's not politically correct, I admit, but-

• 18:11Speaker 01

  But he's the President of Chocolate.

• 18:12Marcus Parks?

  He's the President of Chocolate. What do you want? What do you want from me? Uh, 1971, a prison psychologist finally got his hands on Clifford Olson, and his read on Senator Rabbit was just about perfect. The psychologist wrote that Clifford was, quote, "An active, loosely controlled little man who presents himself in a polite, yet almost manic manner, with emotional development that rages between that of a three-year-old child to a 12-year-old."

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Get out of my fucking report cards.

• 18:45Marcus Parks?

  Well, yeah, an act, holy shit, that does describe you.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  But I'm a pro-social.

• 18:50Marcus Parks?

  An active, loosely controlled little man.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I'm a pro-social Clifford Olson.

• 18:55Speaker 04

  And he doesn't own a hammer.

• 18:56Marcus Parks?

  That is true.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no.

• 18:58Marcus Parks?

  Well, this psychologist, however, still recommended that Clifford Olson be paroled, although the psychologist did state that it would probably be a good idea if the parole officer met with Olsen every single day as opposed to once a week.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Meetings always curb a serial murderer and rapist.

• 19:14Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  It's always a meeting, that stops them dead in the tracks, as you could see from him raping the guy right before his parole hearing. He's super good with schedule.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  You know where a great place to meet him every single day is prison?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you know exactly where he is. He's where you left him.

• 19:33Marcus Parks?

  Well, what this shows is that Clifford Olson had that rare, yet incredibly dangerous superpower that's held by some narcissists. See, even though Clifford's flaws were on full display, his charm made people want to help him in any way they could. If I could compare Clifford Olson to anyone, I would compare him to the most famous narcissistic murderer America has ever seen. That American, of course, is O.J. Simpson, who was also very fond of saying that he loved everybody. I love everybody, man.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  He does, he didn't have any enemies, except for that one woman, that one waiter. Yeah. That was it, it was just two enemies.

• 20:09Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I fucking hate when people kill waiters.

• 20:12Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  It takes long enough to get my waters.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  It's all about the man. It's all about his belly.

• 20:22Marcus Parks?

  Well, me and Caroline had just rewatched the six-part OJ doc, Made in America, which is fucking incredible. We just rewatched it this week after seeing the documentary about OJ's prank show, Juiced, which was also really fucking good.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Hell, yeah, man. I'm two episodes in. It's a blast.

• 20:36Marcus Parks?

  How amazing it is. Oh, as a Florida guy, I would imagine.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I can't believe I wasn't like there like writing for him. You were very close to it. It was very close. We just missed it.

• 20:48Marcus Parks?

  I mean, I know it was all shot in LA and Vegas, but it just has a Florida flavor throughout. But I couldn't help but be reminded of Clifford Olson over and over again when people talked about OJ. And when OJ would speak himself, when he would defend himself, like it just, I just kept hearing Clifford Olson every fucking time.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And I think OJ's specific abilities attach to American ideals, just like Clifford Olson's attached to Canadian ideals.

• 21:17Marcus Parks?

  Very much so. Like, they're both incredibly socially intelligent men.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Because we love what the idea of OJ Simpson in America. We loved OJ Simpson.

• 21:27Marcus Parks?

  Everyone loved him.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:28Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  Unbelievable. I mean, Nick had gone alone.

• 21:30Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. I mean, people would say over and over again, even after OJ's murder and civil trials, that despite any preconceived notions they might have had about OJ, you couldn't help but like him after you were in his presence. And it would take a short amount of time for you to be like, OJ, you're great. You're awesome. Like, have you seen that clip of him on the Wendy Williams show? Like, she starts off being like, ah, man, like, I don't know, OJ, like, starts off not being nice to him. And at the end of it, she's like, you should come to a party at my house. Like, you're great. OJ, you got me.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  If you look at, I remember when we were staying at that hotel that turned about to be one of OJ Simpson's like big haunts. And you look through the Instagram of that account, it was endless pictures of OJ with smiling blonde women grabbing their waists. Looks like hanging out all night. And you're like, he just, he can somehow just turn it on.

• 22:23Marcus Parks?

  He just, once you get into his presence and he's one on, especially if he's one-on-one with you, it's done.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  That's why you have to keep these kinds of guys at a fucking arms distance.

• 22:31Marcus Parks?

  Always.

• 22:32Speaker 04

  He has such a friendly face.

• 22:34Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. And that also, that really helps. And that's what they said about Clifford Olson, too. They said he was, uh, he was handsome. And, and, and that.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  In a Canadian way.

• 22:42Marcus Parks?

  In a Canadian way.

• 22:43Speaker 04

  He looks like my dog nanny.

• 22:44Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:50Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, he actually does. But concerning OJ, people would say that they wouldn't necessarily forget that he was a double murderer when they were talking to him. But OJ could easily disarm almost anyone he came across. Like, people would think like, yeah, he's a double murderer, but he's not gonna double murder me.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  It's impossible.

• 23:10Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not his wife. He's like, he was angry. They started like making excuses. All of a sudden, you're making excuses for him.

• 23:18Marcus Parks?

  Totally. By the end of the conversation, people would say they'd happy thinking that OJ was actually the victim in all of this. Quite unfortunately, Clifford Olson had that exact same talent in spades. And he would use it to commit absolutely horrific crimes every single time he found himself outside the prison walls.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  He never had a stretch of good behavior.

• 23:38Marcus Parks?

  Never. Never, ever, ever.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Also different versus Clifford Olson versus other serial killers we've ever covered. And the fact that his criminal activity never stopped, even he wasn't murdering and raping. He also, he was running scams. He was doing all, he just never stopped. It's like H.H. Holmes.

• 23:55Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. It's the most, I think, it seems like from what I've read, the most he made it was like a week, once.

• 24:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Man, there wasn't a crime. He did every crime, it seems like.

• 24:04Marcus Parks?

  Every crime.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Every crime.

• 24:05Marcus Parks?

  Every crime. He was addicted to crime.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

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• 28:26Marcus Parks?

  Live from your grave. Now, concerning Clifford's charm, he used the psychologist's report to get paroled from his seven-year sentence 38 months early. And this was despite the fact that he'd escaped prison multiple times and had proven to be a habitual criminal, both in and out of prison.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  I just gotta say officially, I, yes, I'm ADHD, but also, I'm a little stinker. He said, I've got little stinker disease.

• 28:54Marcus Parks?

  You know, in Canada, little stink, you can actually get disability for being a little stinker.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm always, I'm knocking over paint buckets. Stealing apples. It's just crazy for me out here. Yeah, now, now, we're gonna let you out thirty-eight months early, but don't think that we're not gonna miss you.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Don't worry, I'll come back for the talent show. Come back for the Christmas party. I'll be like I never left.

• 29:21Marcus Parks?

  But even though Clifford's parole officer naively believed that he could be rehabilitated, even went so far as to get him a job in construction, Olsen immediately returned to a life of crime upon his release. In fact, he missed several daily parole appointments before his first week out of prison was even over.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  No way.

• 29:39Marcus Parks?

  And so, his parole officer recommended revoking Clifford's parole after seeing for himself that Clifford simply could not function as a productive member of society. Olsen, meanwhile, was soon arrested for stealing rare coins and passing bad checks, so revoking his parole was sort of a moot point anyway. He was also in the middle of a scheme that had involved him ordering and stealing fifty pairs of women's underwear and thirty bras. But he was arrested before his plans for the undergarments could come to fruition. We therefore have no fucking clue what he planned to do with all that women's wear.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm going to sew them all together to dress the Canadia, Canada's biggest woman.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Who knows? He's probably another scam. He's just selling stuff that sells, that does all weird fucking dumb shit. Anything that came across his plate, he took a swing at it, it seems like.

• 30:30Marcus Parks?

  Always. And so Clifford was sent back to prison at the age of thirty-three. He had now spent half his life behind bars. But even though he'd proved himself to be an incorrigible criminal, he was paroled again in April of nineteen seventy-three and sent to a halfway house. Clifford, however, didn't like the halfway house setup, so he charmed his way into being allowed to live with his sister Sharon. Sharon agreed, but only under the condition, and she said this to him explicitly, that he'd not molest her children.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I can't even imagine why you'd think I could even think of doing something like that. That's the one thing I will not do. Which room is theirs? I just gotta know. So if I know if they're sleeping, is it like a, or is it like a, a long pause between, between their breaths? I just wanna know. I have ADHD. I don't know. I just wanna know which room they're in, so I know which one you're not going to.

• 31:32Marcus Parks?

  Clifford, of course, broke his promise to not molest his sister's kids immediately.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  I have ADHD.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  I just, I forgot that you told me, because you know, with ADHD, it's, it caused, I got a lot of memory problems. Lack of permanence. You said not to? Yeah. I thought you said to do. I heard. I didn't, I missed the not. I thought you said make sure to not miss molesting your children.

• 32:00Marcus Parks?

  Well, within a few months, he left Sharon's house to embark on one of his many cross-Canadian crime sprees, except Clifford was now including teenage accomplices. This would become a frequent pattern with Clifford. He'd pick up a teenage girl or boy off the street, charm them into thinking he was a good guy who had it all figured out, then whisk them away for crime sprees while carrying on illegal and immoral sexual relationships with said teenagers. Clifford Olson would sometimes even put together tiny three-person gangs, like he did in the summer of nineteen seventy-three. After getting kicked out of his sister's place, Clifford picked up a fourteen-year-old boy named Glenn, and the two of them quickly began a sexual relationship.

• 32:41Marcus Parks?

  The two of them then approached a nineteen-year-old named Evelyn Gagnon at a bus stop in Saskatoon.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  And just something about Saskatoon, just.

• 32:49Marcus Parks?

  Well, it's just, it's these, it's Evelyn Gagnon from Saskatoon. It just, it sounds like I'm just making shit up.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  It does.

• 32:56Marcus Parks?

  And after offering her a ride, which soon turned into a meal, Evelyn found herself in a motel room with Clifford and Glenn. Clifford, however, was using an alias. Evelyn knew him at first as Ronnie Thomas, which is somehow both a fantastic and horrible assumed name all at the same time.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  It really is, and I don't know why.

• 33:16Marcus Parks?

  It's because it sounds fake, but it's distracting.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  It's Rob Thomas's brother.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  That's what I was trying to think. I was like, what does that remind me of? I was like.

• 33:30Marcus Parks?

  Ronald Thomas. Ronald Thomas.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, people call me Ronnie. People know me best.

• 33:36Marcus Parks?

  Hmm. Ronnie Thomas.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Ronnie Thomas.

• 33:38Marcus Parks?

  Hi, Ronnie Thomas. Nice to meet you.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  It works great.

• 33:41Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, Ronald Thomas. It sort of has the same cadence as my name. Ronald Thomas, Marcus Parks. You know, it's got that same sort of thing. Now, while the story of Clifford, Glenn, and Evelyn does not end in murder, it is extremely illustrative in showing that while Clifford Olson was a master at controlling people, he learned these skills little by little. Every encounter, however, is darker than the one that came before, until it finally does end in murder. But nevertheless, the evolution of Clifford Olson as a controller is fucking fascinating and very important to pay attention to.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  He is a developing predator. It is a thing that you see a lot. I think that we're seeing a lot of it right now. And I'm gonna, I just wanna mind.

• 34:22Marcus Parks?

  These are warnings. These are like, I'm saying all this is like, is like warning signs. We're like, look out for this shit.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  The key is like, I don't know who all listens to our show, just remember if anybody thirty or over is talking to you and you are under the age of eighteen, that person is a fucking loser.

• 34:37Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, well, okay, not just, you can talk to them, but if they're trying to.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  I'm talking about trying to fuck you. That's what I mean.

• 34:43Marcus Parks?

  Oh, God, yeah, yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  No, I'm trying to fuck you. They are a loser.

• 34:46Marcus Parks?

  Yes, they're an absolute loser.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  Don't wanna fuck them.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:49Marcus Parks?

  Yes, exactly. So after picking up Evelyn, Clifford had her and Glenn spend three days in a motel with him before they all went out on the road together. Clifford, of course, was having a sexual relationship with both of his companions throughout his latest cross-country crime spree. But notice that I said companions and not accomplices. I actually sort of misspoke earlier when I said accomplices. So while Evelyn suspected that Olsen was committing theft everywhere they went, he'd disappear for hours, then return with wads of cash without explanation, Evelyn didn't question Clifford because she was fucking dazzled by Olsen's charisma.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:25Marcus Parks?

  Olsen was very good at impressing teenagers, and he told these kids that he owned race horses, he owned apartment buildings, he was a big shot. But eventually, I suppose Olsen got bored with his little trio. He put Glenn on a train to Toronto, and Evelyn went to stay with a boyfriend in Vancouver. Now Olsen must have regretted this decision because he soon went back to Toronto to get Glenn.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Where'd I put that Glenn?

• 35:51Marcus Parks?

  But Glenn had told his caretakers what had been going on between him and Clifford, so the police were waiting to arrest Clifford for sodomizing a fourteen-year-old upon Clifford's arrival in Toronto. For once, the cops were ready for Olsen, and they caught him when he tried the rabbit routine. But incredibly, Clifford's own mother bailed him out of jail for the sodomy charge, and Olsen was free to continue his nineteen seventy-three spree. This would become another common pattern. Olsen would be arrested for sexual assault or molestation, but would somehow avoid conviction every single time. In fact, he avoided trials. While he was in prison for the murders, this is how incredible it is.

• 36:31Marcus Parks?

  Clifford would actually threaten to sue journalists who called him a sex criminal because he was never technically convicted for sex crimes, even though he was convicted as a serial killer.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I'm struggling because during this time period until like, you know, we see this, we saw this when we were covering Jimmy Savile, we were covering, there is like, it really can't be said enough how not seriously police took crimes against children and against women for a very, very, very long time. Still. I mean, yeah, that's kind of like the saddest part is that we're reverting, we're just going back. But it's just this idea of like, because they wanted so much evidence.

• 37:12Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  For it to be real. And mainly it's just because, again, how many times we've talked about it, is that it's because it was icky.

• 37:18Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And I don't think they wanna deal with it. And then no one, and then it can, a lot of, especially in this system, they straight up just don't wanna believe that an adult would purposely predate and fuck children. They have this, this idea of like, well, people don't do that.

• 37:32Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, it's too much. Yeah, that, that stuff may happen down in America, but in, down in the States.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  It don't happen here.

• 37:38Marcus Parks?

  Not in Canada.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think is what, is, is mother, rather, was a, you know, she was oddly okay with the sodomy charge because, you know, it's in the Bible.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, but that's another one. You missed the not part.

• 37:51Marcus Parks?

  So after making bail, Olsen gave up on Glenn and drove to Vancouver to pick up his other teenage companion, Evelyn Gagnon, so he could continue his criminal tour across Canada with a little company. Olsen would commit a crime in, say, Edmonton, while Evelyn waited in a hotel room. And although Clifford would never tell her what he was doing, he would routinely return saying, "We gotta go right fucking now." And they'd be off to Victoria, or Calgary. By November, though, Evelyn and Clifford decided to take a rest with Evelyn's grandmother in Winnipeg. And Clifford apparently got along with the grandmother like a house on fire. See, Olsen was extremely talented at getting the elderly to trust him with lightning speed.

• 38:31Marcus Parks?

  But this was only because the elderly, and specifically elderly women, were reliable scam targets for Clifford Olson. One of Olsen's favorite scams with the elderly involved finding apartment buildings that were populated mostly by old people. And after looking at the building directory, Clifford would pick a name, say Catherine Gustafson, in apartment 3G. And Clifford would then go to a different old lady's apartment and knock on the door. When the mark answered, Clifford would say he was Mrs. Gustafson's grandson, like, "Oh, you know Catherine, she's over in 3G, I'm just visiting." The only thing Clifford needed from this old lady was change for a 20, which, very innocent, yeah, sure. Once the old lady agreed and invited Clifford inside, he'd ask for a glass of water.

• 39:14Marcus Parks?

  And when the mark left the room to get the water, Olsen would rifle through the old lady's purse and steal everything he could stuff into his pockets. Because that's the thing, in order to give change for the 20, you gotta bring out the purse. So he had her actually bring her purse to him. And if no one was home, Clifford would just break into the apartment and search the place for rainy day funds. Because he'd learned the most likely places where an old Canadian might hide their money. For some reason, it was usually hidden in jars. And Olsen stole many an elderly Canadian's nest egg by sniffing out these money jars.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  You know what the first thing that hits me is that because it's such low-level crimes for such little money, that this is actually connected to murder and rape. That this is about violation, it's about getting into somebody's apartment.

• 40:05Marcus Parks?

  Very much so.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yes, he's saying to himself, "This is for money." But it's really about lying, gaining access to the inside. Because how many serial killers are peeping toms? They do "bays and ayes." That's Canadian for breaking and entering.

• 40:19Marcus Parks?

  Oh, "bays and ayes."

• 40:20Speaker 01

  "Bays and ayes."

• 40:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and once you get in there, you case the joint, and you come back later and do something else horrible.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  But he didn't even do that, he was building up, this is all the stuff that was building up the froth.

• 40:32Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, it's all, it's all very manic, it's just going from one place to the next, to the next, to the next. And it really is, it's all about power and control, and him looking at the world as his playground. Like, he looks at the world like, he seriously looks at it like we would, you know, going into a GTA game, going in a Grand Theft Auto game and saying like, "Okay, I'm gonna play evil." And he, that's how he lived his life.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Do you think, like, did he assault the elderly too, or was it just stealing from them?

• 41:00Marcus Parks?

  Just stealing, yeah. As far as I know, it was just stealing. When it came to assault, he saved that for young women, young boys, and children. So Olsen's friendship with Evelyn's grandmother-

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Thanks, Marcus.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Just answering questions!

• 41:19Speaker 04

  I mean, he also assaulted men in prison.

• 41:21Marcus Parks?

  Yes, he assaulted men in prison as well, yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Enter the completion.

• 41:27Marcus Parks?

  So Olsen's friendship with Evelyn's grandmother ended when Olsen stole $2,700 of the grandmother's money. And this is, that's $2,700 in 1964 money.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, $2,700 loonies is like 35 pounds.

• 41:42Marcus Parks?

  Now Evelyn had no idea that Clifford had done this, but when she spoke to her mother after she and Clifford left Winnipeg, Evelyn was told of the theft, and she was told that everyone was pretty sure Clifford was the thief. Now, after getting this information, Evelyn found herself faced with an extraordinary internal conflict. And this was all due to Clifford's advanced skills as a narcissistic manipulator. The way Evelyn talked about her struggle with this information, it sounds very similar to the struggle OJ Simpson's friends went through after he was charged with the murders of Ron and Nicole. See, Evelyn couldn't believe that Clifford had done such a horrible thing. Because even though she'd seen signs that he might be a criminal,

• 42:25Marcus Parks?

  Clifford had manipulated and charmed her into thinking that he was a good guy who was just misunderstood. Evelyn, therefore, did not want to believe the accusations, and she wasn't alone in this. Nobody who got close to Clifford ever wanted to believe Clifford was a bad guy, but this was by Clifford's own design. He knew that people wanted to believe the best in him, and he took advantage of that hope at every fucking turn. Clifford's future wife put it best when she said that Clifford had a magnetism that everyone felt, but his charisma was especially potent with women and children. Even animals were naturally drawn to Clifford. Clifford's future wife added, "And when people who knew Clifford in the 60s and 70s spoke about him,

• 43:09Marcus Parks?

  even after he was convicted of the brutal murders of 11 underage kids, they almost always started smiling and remembering what she called 'the funny things.'" They not only didn't talk about the murders, they didn't mention or even think about the thefts, the rapes, or the abuse that they themselves suffered at his hands. Instead, they remembered the hangouts, the jokes, the personality. And this, Clifford's wife said, was what was truly frightening about Clifford Olson.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  He's like an evil cartoon character.

• 43:42Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, he very much is.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  God, all sounds like hanging out at the store.

• 43:49Marcus Parks?

  Now, the other aspect of Evelyn's relationship with Clifford is that Evelyn Gagnon had experienced the sudden changes in demeanor that narcissists use to control people. So while she did want to believe the best in Clifford, she was also absolutely fucking terrified of him. People who were close with OJ Simpson described this same dichotomy, saying that OJ could turn on you with breakneck speed if you said something that challenged him or made him angry.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  And that's a feature, that's like a thing that he did, that's how he holds power.

• 44:18Marcus Parks?

  Oh yeah, well, this is narcissism 101. One minute, he was OJ, friendly, loving, generous, best friend you could ever have. But if you said the wrong thing, it would take less than a second for OJ to turn from the most affable person on earth into the very embodiment of rage. And then, just as quickly, that rage would turn off, and he would suddenly be OJ again. By this point, you'd be so grateful that the rage was gone, that you would be the one apologizing to him. This, as I said, is narcissism 101. And Clifford Olson would use those exact same tactics to keep the people close to him in line and constantly off balance, so he could get away with it, whatever the fuck he wanted.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Because they can't hold the two. They can't hold goofy Clifford and serial killer Clifford in their brains at once.

• 45:08Marcus Parks?

  No, we're just not fucking built for that. Humans aren't built to hold that, and you're like, it's one or the other, and being so off balance all the time, it's fucking impossible.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  That's right, I throw a fucking grenade at him.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, the hammer really made him worse.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the hammer gave him ideas.

• 45:28Marcus Parks?

  Now, even though Evelyn was scared to question Clifford, she finally confronted him about robbing her grandmother while the two of them were riding a bus to the next Canadian city. But when Evelyn honestly asked Clifford if he had anything to do with the missing money, Olsen pulled out another trusty play from the narcissist handbook by acting wounded. He asked, quote, "How can you even think such a thing?

• 45:51Marcus Parks?

  Would I, Clifford Olson, of Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver, Canada's Clifford Olson, would I do that?" But because Evelyn was even asking questions, Olsen knew that his narcissistic spells were losing their power. Clifford, however, had not yet come to see murder as a way to solve his problems. There's still about eight years away from that. So he instead simply chose to leave her before she could leave him. After trying to make her feel like she was the bad person here, he got off at the next bus stop and never saw Evelyn again. The spell, however, was indeed broken, and Evelyn soon told the RCMP everything she knew about Clifford Olson.

• 46:35Marcus Parks?

  By January of 1974, Clifford was arrested again and convicted on eight counts of theft, fraud, and forgery. But there were no convictions for sexual assault, despite the fact that Clifford had raped multiple minors during this particular stretch of freedom.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  Do you think there was just like, "That's too hard to convict, we could definitely get him on this other shit type of deal"?

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Always, literally, it's always, it's always this idea of like, they don't want to take any of that seriously, they don't take the children's words seriously, they don't take any, you know-

• 47:04Marcus Parks?

  Well, it's also the, there's also the fact that sexual assault victims are very reticent to testify. You know, the kid Glenn, the 14-year-old, yeah, they, they just don't want to go out in public and say those things, that these things happen to them.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  It's traumatic.

• 47:19Marcus Parks?

  Traumatic and it's humiliating.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  It's horrific.

• 47:21Marcus Parks?

  Now, once Clifford was sent back to prison, his reputation as a snitch made life dangerous amongst other prisoners. During a prison poker game, for example, Olsen got into a fight with some fellow inmates and was stabbed in the back twice with a pair of scissors.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Now, was the scissors open?

• 47:42Marcus Parks?

  Otherwise, that would be, that would be four puncture wounds.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Okay, I just want to make sure I know what's going on here.

• 47:48Marcus Parks?

  But instead of taking his lumps, Olsen spilled the beans on everything he knew, not just about illicit gambling within the prison, but any and all drug deals that he'd been privy to. Then he got his attackers charged with attempted murder. According to the RCMP, they couldn't remember an inmate who'd done so much snitching all at once.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  And that's how we knew we were doing our job right. We're really inspiring them to do what's right, which is snitch, snitch, snitch all day long, like a little fucking evil whore. Snitch, snitch, snitch.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  The phrase in that snitching that was over and over again was, "And I'll tell you another thing." And that reminds me, therefore, in toward-

• 48:39Marcus Parks?

  Olson also used the stabbings to his every advantage. He weaseled $3,500 out of something called the Saskatchewan Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. It's so fucking Canadian.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:51Marcus Parks?

  The board's chairman even declared Clifford Olson's conduct as "above reproach", adding that Olson's squeals had indicated "an unusual degree of moral and physical courage".

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I always found prison snitches to always be bastions of bravery and power of this wonderful country. Oh, I love them.

• 49:13Marcus Parks?

  Well, those statements were of course, used in Clifford's future parole hearings to once again obtain early release.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  You know, I hate America's prison system.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  But I feel like we would have stopped him.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. At some point, we would have been like, alright, somebody just stab him to death.

• 49:31Marcus Parks?

  That's what I keep saying. There's a middle ground to be found here. There's definitely a middle ground to be found between America's over incarceration and over policing and Canada is like-

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Giving this guy money. Let's just- The prison system just giving him money.

• 49:44Marcus Parks?

  What do you think we ought to give him? Three grand?

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:47Marcus Parks?

  Make it 3,500.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah, that's really generous.

• 49:49Marcus Parks?

  Getting some walking around money, you know?

• 49:53Marcus Parks?

  But interestingly, Clifford's snitch spree did achieve its intended purpose. Other inmates saw that messing with Olson was extremely risky because Olson was now under protection of the biggest gang of all, the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  My theory is that this is what he was trying to do the whole time.

• 50:12Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  That he was just trying to get the police on his side.

• 50:15Marcus Parks?

  Mm-hmm. And so Olson figured out that his snitch relationship with the RCMP was the most valuable relationship in his life. So he started going above and beyond to solidify that relationship. Eventually Clifford Olson actually played a key role in helping the RCMP in obtaining a legitimate murder conviction. See, after the poker game stabbing, Clifford had been put into protective custody. So he found himself in a cell next to another protected man named Gary Marco. Marco was a known Skinner because he'd already been sentenced to prison for raping his 18-year-old sister and attempting to rape his two-year-old sister.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  The thing is, no one wants to hear is I feel like I should be celebrated for just keeping it in the family.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  You know, it was just right there. It's local crimes.

• 51:08Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, local crimes are better, are they?

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, keeping it local. I kept my, I kept my, my, my footprint, my pollution footprint very small.

• 51:17Marcus Parks?

  Oh, your carbon footprint's smaller.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  My carbon very small. It's right here in the living room. Yeah. In fact, my carbon footprint was even, I even wiped it off before I came in the house.

• 51:29Marcus Parks?

  While Marco was out on parole for those crimes, it was alleged that he had raped and murdered a nine-year-old girl named Jeanne Douve. Because the last time Douve had been seen alive, she was with Gary Marco. But even so, the prosecution's case was weak, too weak to guarantee a conviction. And so, all on his own accord, nobody asked him to do this, Clifford Olson saw an opportunity to be useful and an opportunity to bring him closer to the RCMP. He and Marco had actually met back in 1961. So the two sex offenders became fast friends in protective custody. Before long, Olson had gotten Marco to go

• 52:08Marcus Parks?

  into detail about what he'd done to Jeanne Douve. And Olson was taking detailed notes the entire time.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  So yeah, first things first, I, you know, I pinned her arms in the back.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  What are you doing in there?

• 52:23Marcus Parks?

  Nah.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Nothing?

• 52:26Speaker 01

  What else did I do to her?

• 52:29Marcus Parks?

  Fascinating.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Is it a comically big pencil?

• 52:32Speaker 04

  It's just because you have the same interests in someone, you can't trust them.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  You're right, Eddie.

• 52:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:36Marcus Parks?

  That's very true.

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, just because they also like Led Zeppelin, that doesn't mean that they're your friend.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  But I honestly feel like it's closer to being your friend if it's Led Zeppelin and not pedophilia.

• 52:45Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  I feel like if pedophilia's which is joining you all together, that's definitely not great. But I do think that Scrabble can bring a group together in a way that's like, nice. Yeah.

• 52:54Marcus Parks?

  You're both making good points.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 52:57Marcus Parks?

  Now Clifford Olson discovered that by the time he got to his prison cell, Gary Marco had convinced himself that he hadn't actually murdered this child. Gary Marco claimed that while yes, he had kidnapped her and he had tied her to a tree and he had raped her, she had actually strangled herself to death accidentally while he was cleaning up the car he'd used in the abduction.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Fight a nickel?

• 53:23Marcus Parks?

  He did however, admit to masturbating on the body after she was dead because at that point, you know, why not?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Now I'm here.

• 53:30Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. I guess.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  There wasn't enough evidence before.

• 53:34Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  And a little bit of me on there.

• 53:39Marcus Parks?

  Now, as soon as Olson got the confession, he sent his notes to the Attorney General and swore an affidavit that the notes were legit. And using Olson's notes, the state was able to bring a far stronger murder case against Gary Marco. Gary however, didn't know that Clifford Olson was the star witness in his trial until Clifford showed up in court to testify for the Crown against Gary, which I'm sure broke Gary's little child murdering heart.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Bad boys, bad boys. What you gonna do? What you gonna do when they come for you? It's me, I got you.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  You know when Clifford walked in, Gary's like, "God damn it, I told him everything."

• 54:21Speaker 01

  You're the worst guy to be in here.

• 54:26Marcus Parks?

  And he pinky swore to me that he wouldn't tell nobody else.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Well, actually, we can use that pinky swear in Canadian court. That does hold up as a contract in this wonderful land.

• 54:37Marcus Parks?

  Objection, my client. Pinky swore with the testifier that he wouldn't say, so you-

• 54:42Speaker 01

  I don't even know why we're having this trial. Alright, Mr. Marco, here's your 3,500 Canadian dollars and we'll see you on your way. Have a nice time in Vancouver. Oh, by the way, just so you know, my niece has visited. You should take her out to lunch. Take her to the park.

• 55:01Marcus Parks?

  Now, the Crown might not have gotten the conviction without Clifford Olson. So Olson made sure that any and all authority figures he came across knew that he had done them a favor. As a result, Clifford again got early parole. But after his time with Gary Marco, it seems like something changed. It's like a switch had been flicked on in Clifford's head. Perhaps Gary Marco's accounts of raping and murdering a little girl had gotten Clifford Olson excited, or perhaps it had given him ideas that he had not yet entertained. But either way, when Clifford Olson was released once again in 1977 after Gary's conviction, Clifford's so-called adventures took on a far, far darker tone.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I think that he had it in the back of his mind as a thing he wanted to do. And I think that he was talking-

• 55:52Marcus Parks?

  Or even a thing that he could do.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Yes. I think he was toying with it. And I think that what he realized was that the more I help them convict other child molesters and murderers, the more I can do it myself.

• 56:06Marcus Parks?

  Oh, of course. Now, that's another thing with the narcissist fucking playbook is that it's about-

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Projection.

• 56:13Marcus Parks?

  Well, no, it's about banking. It's about banking and setting up other people for when you need them. You know, it's like that fucking, that elephant's graveyard thing. Like, you know that guy that was on Rogan's like, "Yeah, you know, when they come for you, when you get canceled, you want that somebody on your side, you know, when it happens to you." And it's like, no, you're saying that because you know it's going to happen to you.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Marcus Parks?

  Most people don't need that.

• 56:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, you should just not let it happen.

• 56:38Marcus Parks?

  You should just not do it.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  By being a good person.

• 56:40Marcus Parks?

  Exactly.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  But that's really difficult, Eddie. All he was grabbing, grabbing, grabbing, sucking, grabbing.

• 56:47Marcus Parks?

  Now, while prison had given Clifford the idea to use a hammer as a humane method of murder, it had also given him the main tool he would use not just as a serial rapist, but as a serial killer who focused on underage teenagers. See Clifford had insomnia, so the prison infirmary gave him a strong sedative named Chloral Hydrate to help him sleep. Clifford soon discovered that mixing Chloral Hydrate pills with alcohol caused a person to pass out hard and fast.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Noted.

• 57:18Marcus Parks?

  Well, we already knew this. Yeah, because Jeffrey Dahmer, we knew this because Jeffrey Dahmer had used a mixture of Halcyon pills and beer to subdue his victims. But while Dahmer at the very least felt guilt over his murders and used the drugs to get through the act of murder so he could obtain his ultimate goal of a dead body, Clifford Olson was gleeful in his use of Chloral Hydrate. Effectively, Chloral Hydrate turned people into living unconscious sex dolls who could be easily disposed of once Clifford Olson was done with them. Clifford Olson was so glib about his actions that he even had a nickname for his combo of pills and booze. Because Chloral Hydrate pills were green,

• 57:57Marcus Parks?

  Clifford referred to the combination of Chloral Hydrate and alcohol as "the green machine", which, you know, it-

• 58:05Speaker 01

  It doesn't make sense. A machine, like, you expect to be powerful. It's Canadian. It's a Canadian thing.

• 58:09Marcus Parks?

  But that's the thing, Canadians are really fucking funny. They're really, they're very funny and very clever.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  But the one thing I will say about, honestly, this is just one, again, love, I do love Canada. I love Canadians. They're bad at naming things.

• 58:22Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, Winnipeg.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, not even, not the towns. It's more like the things.

• 58:26Marcus Parks?

  Do you want to Banff?

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Like, there's places that you go to with like, you know, like, I forgot there was like a place called like, like, Blinky's and they have like stuff like that. It's like, it's bad names. The comedy club's called Yuck Yucks. Yeah. That's fucking accurate.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  By the way, I'm available. Please, please book it.

• 58:45Marcus Parks?

  Now about two weeks after Clifford Olson was released from prison in 1977, he was giving a friend of his a ride to a town west of Vancouver, when the two guys came across a 23-year-old woman named Debbie. Debbie would be picked up just like Evelyn, but perhaps due to the influence of Gary Marco, Debbie's misadventures with Clifford would turn into a harrowing ordeal that would absolutely destroy Debbie for years to come. So after Clifford dropped off his friend, he gave Debbie beers spiked with chloral hydrate pills. And after checking into a hotel, Clifford raped her while she was still unconscious. Debbie was younger than she looked and could easily pass for 10 years younger.

• 59:27Marcus Parks?

  So Clifford actually thought he was raping a 13-year-old. But even though Clifford was actually disappointed that Debbie was not underage, he kept her around for another cross-Canadian crime spree, but things with Debbie got a hell of a lot darker than they ever did with Evelyn. And you know, when I say, I wouldn't say kept her around, I would say more kidnapped, abducted, and forced her to come with him.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was his hostage.

• 59:52Marcus Parks?

  While Evelyn was subjected to a pure charm offensive, Debbie was kept drugged out using chloral hydrate and LSD. She was full of acid this whole fucking time. The drugs combined with Clifford's charm and his constantly shifting moods kept Debbie incredibly disoriented and constantly off balance. Debbie said that Clifford quickly became brutal and demanding. He would jump from topic to topic at random while shifting between moods at an erratic pace. And when his demeanor changed, so would his face and his voice. She said that Olson acted like a man possessed, barely in control. So Debbie was constantly alternating between states of terror and bewilderment.

• 1:00:36Marcus Parks?

  When she resisted any sexual advance, he would get rough, slap her around, and eventually get his way through rape regardless. So Debbie came to feel totally helpless, believing that her only defense was total submission. This incredibly all happened within days of meeting Clifford Olson.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  You know what it reminds me of, and it makes me sad that it reminds me of that?

• 1:00:57Marcus Parks?

  What's that?

• 1:00:58Speaker 04

  Christina Ricci in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. You're like the big fuckers, huh? You're like the big fuckers.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, it reminds the hell of me of that. Fucking, now, now I'm sad. Now I'm sad.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Good work, good work, good work.

• 1:01:15Marcus Parks?

  Debbie did try to make a break for it, but Clifford told her that he would have her and her entire family killed by the mafia if she ever tried escaping again.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  That's a Gacy tactic.

• 1:01:26Marcus Parks?

  Oh, it's very much, oh yeah, Gacy was doing that with the kids back in Iowa, before he even went to prison for, you know, raping those kids. Betrude in narcissistic form, Debbie said that Olson would threaten her family with mob retribution one minute, then the very next turn on the charm, saying something like, so, if you like Chinese tonight, how about some noodles? Does that sound good? You know, it just back and forth, back and forth. And you know, I could kill your family at any moment, but you know, wonton soup's my favorite. What about you?

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  I will say, I would take some wonton soup in the time period if we're asking. You know, you mean, I know it's all, everything's bad, all this stuff's bad, but if we are asking.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  It's pimp shit.

• 1:02:06Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, it is. Eventually Debbie came to expect these wild swings in demeanor. One time Clifford ordered Debbie to take a bath, but once he soaped her up, he urinated on her and scrubbed her down with tub water that was now half piss. Then the next day, he'd be charming again. He'd vow to help her out of any bad situation she ever got into, which of course implied, heavily implied, that her current situation with Clifford was not a bad one. It was actually a good one. It implied things could get a lot fucking worse.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if you like bathing in piss, this is the place to be.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yes, if you're a Canadian woman looking to be covered in piss, besides just being Rob Ford's assistant, this is another thing you could do.

• 1:02:54Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. After weeks of this, in which Debbie spent most of her time drugged by chloral hydrate and LSD against her will, Clifford Olson decided to introduce Debbie to his sister Sharon and her kids.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  That's too soon.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  This is the big crime.

• 1:03:10Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. This is the same sister who had made Clifford promise to not molest her kids. A promise Clifford broke, but such was both the charm and the terror of Clifford Olson. Tellingly, Sharon took Debbie aside one night during this visit and told her that she should not go out with Clifford because Clifford was a dangerous man.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Isn't he currently visiting you?

• 1:03:35Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, and I don't want him here, but still, he's here. It tells you everything you need to know.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Marcus Parks?

  Sharon seemingly didn't know the full extent of the situation when she said that, but I'm sure she figured it out when Clifford got angry at Debbie one night and raped her with Sharon right there in the fucking room. But instead of going to the cops, Clifford's sister Sharon instead took Debbie to a doctor the next day, while Olson said he had to go out for, quote, "an appointment at the bank."

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Oh, man, he must be horrible at the bank.

• 1:04:09Speaker 04

  I hate the bank.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  I hate the fucking bank.

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  Let's not talk about the bank.

• 1:04:15Marcus Parks?

  The doctor, however, quite unhelpfully just prescribed tranquilizers, which was the last thing Debbie needed at this point.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  All I'm hearing is a lot of yep, yep, yep, yep. What I need from you is a lot more.

• 1:04:29Marcus Parks?

  Are you sure you wouldn't feel a lot better if you didn't just shut the fuck up and stop bothering me?

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  How are you gonna do that? Take these, fall asleep, or I'm gonna zap your brain. You want that? You want that?

• 1:04:41Marcus Parks?

  Well, when Olson returned from his so-called "appointment at the bank", he had purchased or stolen a video camera, which he used to record Debbie in compromising situations. This, as it goes with any serial killer who ever owned a fucking camera, has led to speculation that Olson was involved in pornography and may have made and sold snuff films. There is, however, no evidence that he ever videotaped any of his murders, much less any evidence that he contacted a distributor to sell videos depicting his horrific crimes.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  And there really is none. There is none. There's no evidence that he hid the tapes. There's no evidence that there ever was tapes.

• 1:05:18Marcus Parks?

  No, no, no. I mean, it's different when you're talking about, you know, what's the?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  The RC horse thing.

• 1:05:23Marcus Parks?

  Herb Barma- Balma- yeah, that, that's evidence that he may have been involved in snuff films. And yeah, and the horse thing as well, that's, that's different. But what the horse thing is showing us is that like, you kind of actually have to be in pornography already to get that stuff out there.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. That's how like, when you look at CSAM material, the way that's shared, it's a lot of it's, a lot of it's shared in WhatsApps and like group things that you get invited to. And then kind of what they do is they'll sandwich bad stuff. I don't like the term that I just used.

• 1:05:54Marcus Parks?

  Sandwich?

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if sandwich is a good term for it, like a compliment sandwich, but with child porn.

• 1:05:59Marcus Parks?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  So I think that if you go into it.

• 1:06:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, because I like all sandwiches.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  But not that sandwich.

• 1:06:06Speaker 04

  I've never ordered that sandwich.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Never gonna order that.

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  I don't even know how to order that sandwich.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  It's on DoorDash.

• 1:06:11Speaker 04

  It's not at Publix, I'll tell you that much.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yeah, I feel like.

• 1:06:16Marcus Parks?

  Unfortunately, it is Jimmy John's.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  They have, but it's like, that's what they do. So it's like, you'll get, yeah, you got your CSAM that you want, but a lot of them also have bestiality and like stuff like that all buried in within it.

• 1:06:29Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. Now, while you might again say Sharon should have gone to the cops, she was obviously terrified of what her brother might do to her and her kids.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  She was fucked up. She didn't know what the fuck to do. She didn't know what to do.

• 1:06:41Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is, she did do what she could. She tried to help Debbie by contacting a social worker agency on Debbie's behalf. But the social worker agency did have like the worst fucking name. It was called The Burden Bearers.

• 1:06:57Marcus Parks?

  It's like, hey, I got a burden here. I really need somebody to bear this.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  I don't like The Burden Bearers.

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  Everything doesn't need a cute name. It doesn't help people.

• 1:07:07Marcus Parks?

  Well, it's not even a cute name. It's an insulting name. And it's like, if you're going here, it's like, you know what? I got a burden. I can't bear it. I need you to bear this burden for me.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Well, welcome to Burden Bearers, where we bear burdens better than anybody's bear burdens ever brought before. We're bearing burdens more than anybody's ever bear burdens. And bear burdens is one of our favorite things we do. We got a burden. If you got a burden, I like to have it. I like to bear that burden.

• 1:07:28Speaker 04

  I don't think anyone who works there was like, told someone who gets raped all the time, I'll take this one.

• 1:07:33Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 04

  You know, like, that never fucking happened. You're not a burden bearer.

• 1:07:38Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, not a burden bearer, no, no. No, I've been bearing a burden for about three months now, so let me go get my burden out of the car. Gary, this is my burden. Gary, he's a burden. I need you to bear it. Gary, you know you're a burden.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Come here, Gary. Take off your clothes. This is what we mean by bearing burdens. And now you're being naked. Now that we know that Gary's the problem. Gary's now the naked problem.

• 1:08:00Marcus Parks?

  This agency arranged for Debbie to stay with a German immigrant couple named Gunther and Gezella Kleinschmidt. And although the Kleinschmids did have somewhat good intentions, their gullibility at times bordered on criminal negligence.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  They just sound like two people that live in a giant wooden shoe.

• 1:08:20Marcus Parks?

  Hello, going to Kleinschmidt here.

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  You know, after the whole WWII kerfuffle, we realized we can't trust any of those German guys. So we're going to Canada where everyone's trustworthy. We're gonna need an issue at all.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 1:08:36Marcus Parks?

  See, the Kleinschmids were hardcore Christians, and since mistrust and hatred towards women is hardwired into fundamentalist Christianity, not all Christianity, but definitely fundamentalist Christianity, Gunther and Gezella were easily and quickly seduced by Clifford Olson's charm. Almost immediately, they saw Debbie as the troublesome, sinful liar, while Clifford Olson was seen as the one to trust. Clifford and Debbie very quickly began going to church with the Kleinschmids once Debbie was put into their care, and Clifford knew how to put on a pious performance. Debbie, however, was still being drugged, and the LSD was starting to loosen her grip on reality. Reportedly, she started screaming during church services one day

• 1:09:21Marcus Parks?

  that she was hearing voices from God telling her that she was in the company of Satan. The Kleinschmids, of course, did not entertain the thought that maybe when Debbie was screaming about Satan, she was actually screaming about Clifford Olson.

• 1:09:37Speaker 04

  You know, he was wearing horns and had a little tail on, and they turned around. He like took them off real fast.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  They had to leave my costumes in the car.

• 1:09:47Marcus Parks?

  Now while Clifford continued playing the pious and concerned boyfriend, he got a job as a construction worker, but mostly made his money burgling houses. Debbie, however, one day snapped out of her trance, quite suddenly, while hanging out with Clifford's sister Sharon at their local mall. Perhaps the drugs finally wore off enough for Debbie to take some agency, because after she ditched Sharon, she hitched a ride with a trucker, who was thankfully a good dude.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  That was a roll of the dice.

• 1:10:17Marcus Parks?

  Now, we've got a lot of trucker listeners and, yeah, you're great, but man, you know those guys you share that fucking lot with.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  You guys know. I've got a lot of messages from truckers talking about all the shady shit that happened. So it makes, you know, we know what's going on.

• 1:10:29Marcus Parks?

  Debbie made her way to her mother's place in Calgary. Debbie later said that for the first time since meeting Clifford Olson, she relaxed. Incredibly, this entire saga had occurred over a period of six weeks.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Woo!

• 1:10:44Marcus Parks?

  That's it. Debbie, however, was stuck in a state of permanent terror after her ordeal with Clifford. She was soon committed to a mental institution, but after four years of treatment, she emerged to face Clifford by actually helping the Crown's case when they were trying to convict him on murder charges.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  And just for some reason, I could just see them doing it in such a fucked up Canadian way of them like dollying her in and the Hannibal Lecter fucking like on the dolly with the straitjacket on.

• 1:11:13Marcus Parks?

  No, no, no, this was a moment.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Get a big metal helmet on, you know?

• 1:11:15Marcus Parks?

  This was a moment of like strength and like coming back and like fuck you Clifford.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  That's nice. Good, good, good.

• 1:11:21Marcus Parks?

  No, no, it wasn't an SCTV sketch.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Thank God. But also, they were the best of comedy. SCTV is probably the best sketch comedy that's ever been made. I agree with that.

• 1:11:31Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I'll put that opinion right dead in the center of our Clifford Olson series.

• 1:11:36Marcus Parks?

  I'd say at the very least, the funniest cast ever assembled.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:11:40Marcus Parks?

  Now Olsen was...

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  With a remiss, I mean, Clifford Olson.

• 1:11:43Marcus Parks?

  He was hurt down the street.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  If he had just taken this energy and put it towards Second City TO.

• 1:11:51Speaker 04

  The worst decision they ever made was cutting Glenn from the roster.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Can't believe it. If it didn't him, Eugene Levy, Andrea Martin hanging out.

• 1:12:01Marcus Parks?

  John Candy.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  John Candy. He would have not liked him.

• 1:12:03Marcus Parks?

  No, he wouldn't have. Now Olsen wasn't punished in any way whatsoever for his crimes against Debbie. In fact, because she ran away, Clifford stayed in the good graces of Gunther and Gisella Kleinschmidt. We are so glad to be rid of that little girl because she was ruining the vibe. We love you. We love you, Cliff. See, the Kleinschmitz were nothing but tools to be added to Clifford's good but misunderstood arsenal, because Clifford used his relationship with these fundamentalists when he was caught violating his parole once again. In pleading his case, Clifford claimed to have become a born again Christian who was enrolled in both religious courses and Bible schools.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Wow, it's like it's part of a playbook that happens all the time. It's like a thing that every person who's ever accused of many crimes does. It's an easy escape hatch.

• 1:12:55Marcus Parks?

  The Kleinschmitz vouched for him, because despite his troubles with the law, they wanted to believe that Clifford was earnestly trying to become a good Christian.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  It's all about like numbers for God. It's all about like, see, it works. The system works. It all works.

• 1:13:10Marcus Parks?

  We got him. Oh, yeah. While in prison this time, Clifford spoke with the Kleinschmitz as his best friends, and his fake friendship earned him early parole yet again. In turn, the Kleinschmitz truly believed that they were God's chosen instrument in bringing Clifford into the Christian flock. Because it also makes them feel very special. Look at what we've turned around, what we've done, what God's pow... Look at what God's power can do.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Yes, he continues to do crimes, yes.

• 1:13:40Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  But it's because of the power of God. Look how sad it makes him. God, you see me frown? Oh, you're smiling though. No, it's just my frown.

• 1:13:51Marcus Parks?

  And you know, he commits crimes all week long, and yeah, they're really awful, but every Sunday, he puts at least $2 in that collection place.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  I said I'm sorry to a statue. It's real. It's very real.

• 1:14:04Marcus Parks?

  And so, when Olsen was released again in January of 1978, he left under the Kleinschmidt supervision. And as long as Olsen went to church every Sunday, the Kleinschmitz asked no questions about what Olsen did with the other six days of his week.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  And what's nice about church is it's not known for any sort of crimes against children. No.

• 1:14:24Marcus Parks?

  No church ever.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  It's a good place, separate from a bunch of kids that are sitting there in their Sunday best, just waiting.

• 1:14:29Marcus Parks?

  Super vulnerable, yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Believe it in a fake thing, already believe it in a fake thing, you know?

• 1:14:34Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, yeah, but many opportunities to get them alone.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, it's definitely...

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Under the guise of, you know, within the church and the power of...

• 1:14:41Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, church really is the best place to put a guy like Clifford Olsen. Yeah, man, put him there all the time.

• 1:14:45Speaker 03

  On October 30th, Dexter Morgan is back. In this season, he's facing the scariest threat yet: middle age. A lifetime of blending in gets to you. And now Dexter is up against two rival killers, stealing the spotlight. Taking them down means changing his MO, and things are gonna get messy. Starring Michael C. Hall, Uma Thurman, Dan Stevens, and Brian Cox. Dexter: Resurrection. New season, October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 1:15:16Speaker 04

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• 1:17:13Speaker 04

  Oh no, it's my favorite thing in the world. It's Quince. Oh, I look good. I mean, I feel good. You know, it's been a while since I wanted to look at myself in the mirror, and Quince really helps me with that. Sometimes I look in the mirror and I see myself in that beautiful cashmere Quince sweater, and I think, dang, everybody's gonna want this. I better take it off because I love my wife. You gotta get that versatile jacket. You gotta get the perfect t-shirt. And you know who's got it? Oh, it's Quince. Quince has got it.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  If you come to one of the shows, you'll probably see me wearing Quince. If you can't guess which part of my clothes are Quince, I'll give you a pinch. That's right, Quince for a pinch here over at Last Podcast on the Left. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. I like the cashmere. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Last Podcast on the Left. It's the best way to support the show. Quince, it makes you look like a prince.

• 1:18:44Marcus Parks?

  Well, after just a couple of weeks of church life, Olson dropped his Christian facade and began skipping both work and meetings with his parole officer.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I have A D H D.

• 1:18:56Marcus Parks?

  Clifford then returned to sex crimes, which were only escalating in their depravity. But even though he was getting caught, he was not going to prison for these atrocities. Olson, for example, raped a young boy soon after he stopped pretending to be a Christian. But while he was caught and beaten by, I assume, the boy's family for the rape, no police report was made. Not too long after, Olson was also caught luring an intellectually disabled little girl to a motel. But thankfully, the girl's brother followed Olson and also beat the shit out of them before Olson could go through with his nefarious plan.

• 1:19:31Speaker 04

  See, street justice is fun, but it doesn't always work.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  No, it really doesn't.

• 1:19:36Marcus Parks?

  Because the thing is, is that he, as far as he was concerned, he got away with it. Because he can, he knows how to take a beating.

• 1:19:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, we know he likes pain. He enjoyed getting hit in the head with a hammer.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he doesn't not care. He does not care.

• 1:19:49Marcus Parks?

  But even though Clifford had tried taking advantage of arguably the most vulnerable type of person in existence, no charges were filed for the incident at the motel. So Clifford fully plunged himself back into a life of crime. He picked up and raped hitchhikers using his so-called green machine. He stole from senior citizens and ran scam after scam. But it seems like Clifford was actually getting better at avoiding arrest or even detection, because no police reports from this time period named him specifically in any of the crimes he committed. Now, that's not to say there wasn't incompetence or laziness involved. He remained free even after being arrested and charged with robbery and kidnapping during this particular stretch of freedom.

• 1:20:32Marcus Parks?

  In fact, he was able to make it to the end of his mandatory probation check-in period. So by 1978, Olson was free to travel anywhere he wanted. But lest you think that Clifford Olson got away with all of this because he was committing all his crimes in Canada, it is time for us to now come down off of our high horse. Because it could be argued that he was actually more successful as a criminal when he embarked on his own little tour of the United States in the spring of 1978.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, that's the thing. A lot of Canadians come down to America to get good.

• 1:21:06Speaker 04

  I think one of those things, we take all of them. You got your cynical Nathan Fielder. We got your kids in the hall. We got them all. We took them. We stuck them Katy Perry.

• 1:21:15Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Gave her back.

• 1:21:17Marcus Parks?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:18Speaker 04

  Gave her fucking back. We were done with her.

• 1:21:22Marcus Parks?

  No, they come here and, yeah, we ruin them.

• 1:21:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, no, we sharpen them.

• 1:21:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, Jim Carrey's perfectly not to be held. He's great. He's great.

• 1:21:33Marcus Parks?

  Well, starting in New York City, Olson scammed and defrauded his way across the country in the summer of 1978. But this shows you how good of a con man Olson really was. Because New York City in 1978, I mean, I'm not telling anyone anything new here when I say it was fucking rough.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:50Marcus Parks?

  But Olson managed to earn $5,000 committing scams just in New York City.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Can I say, you know why, you know why I actually think that, honestly, it was a breeze for him? Because of the reaction your nephew got during the, your reaction when your nephew.

• 1:22:08Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, when Kellen, when my nephew Kellen went to New York City for our wedding, oh, my God.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Marcus has got a very, he's got a, you know, young guy, he was, he's 21, right? He's just like, just turned.

• 1:22:18Marcus Parks?

  Kellen? No, yeah, I think he was, I think he was like 22, 23, but yeah, somewhere around there.

• 1:22:22Speaker 04

  Cowboy hat.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Cowboy hat. Literally, young man, broad-shouldered, just a cowboy hat, cowboy, cowboy hat. Literally just going like, ma'am, made the Brooklyn, like, the most cool Brooklyn ladies fall apart.

• 1:22:39Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  I have never seen a reaction of a group of women to that, to one singular man before in my life. He was dancing and they surrounded him in a circle, like they were all like, like they were surround, they were all choosing lionesses. Choosing who's gonna get it.

• 1:22:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, that rehearsal dinner was full of puddles.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  That was wild. I could see him with his Canadian goofball shtick.

• 1:23:02Marcus Parks?

  It's disarming.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  He arrives and he's just so like, oh, you know me, I am just a bumpkin up from Eddington. And like, they're all probably like, yeah, fuck this fucking guy. Yeah, this guy's fucking hilarious.

• 1:23:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's cute. Give him money.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Fuck this guy. Normally, a guy like you, I'd fucking shoot him in the head. But you, let's go get some pizza, bud. I love you. I'm, my sister Maria. Name my cousin Maria.

• 1:23:29Marcus Parks?

  Oh, no, Kellen, like, he closed down the turkey's nest.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:33Marcus Parks?

  Like, he walked in there, he fucking, but he was doing it very good-naturedly.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  He was wonderful.

• 1:23:37Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, he was great.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  And he actually left, he left with nobody. He didn't do anything.

• 1:23:41Marcus Parks?

  But Clifford Olson saw that and he knew how to turn that shit on its head immediately. It's the whole disarming thing. And that's the thing, using his charm, Olson's crime spree stretched from Youngstown, Ohio to Gary, Indiana, from Houston, Texas, all the way down to Florida. He committed rent scams and purse snatches. He'd impersonate bank tellers and convince people to just hand him their money. He'd pose it as an investor and then run off with people's life savings. Years later, Olson would even claim that he committed several murders in four American states during this jaunt. But personally, I don't think Olson committed his first murder until 1980.

• 1:24:20Marcus Parks?

  Olson did, however, claim that he had personally met and made friends with the Green River Killer while he was in America. According to Olson, those murders were actually the work of his friend Ronnie.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Which is interesting because Ronnie Thomas was his pseudonym, which is like his fake name when he started all this crime stuff. It's almost like he's blaming himself.

• 1:24:40Marcus Parks?

  Almost, but, um, but we do know it was Gary.

• 1:24:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, oh, it was Gary. We also know Gary was real bad at making friends.

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  He really was not the charmer, was he?

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  But that's where Clifford comes in.

• 1:24:53Marcus Parks?

  That's true. Now, while no cop in the United States came close to busting Clifford Olson during his summer spree of 1978, the RCMP were waiting for him when he crossed the border back into Alberta in September. His Vancouver warrants had finally caught up with him. But because Clifford Olson was apparently born with a fucking horseshoe stuck up his ass, he served far less time than he should have for his 1978 crimes. Because of a bookkeeping mistake, it was on record that Olson was in Canadian prison while he was going hog wild in America. Olson, therefore, actually got credit for time served. And as a result, he only spent a year in prison this time around.

• 1:25:38Speaker 04

  They're bad at it. They're just bad at it.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  You know, I was gonna bring up a little mistake with the calendar, but actually, no, I'm good.

• 1:25:46Marcus Parks?

  I'm good.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  No, that's right, yeah.

• 1:25:50Marcus Parks?

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  I was learning, oh, yeah. Yeah, I was, but that's where I was on the softball team.

• 1:25:55Speaker 04

  Totally rehabbed.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Rehabbed out the ass.

• 1:26:00Marcus Parks?

  But after being released in February 1980, Clifford Olson traveled to the town of Coquitlam outside of Vancouver. Eagle-eared listeners might remember Coquitlam as the home of serial killer Robert Pickton, although as far as we know, the two men never crossed paths.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  They were different vibes, different scenes.

• 1:26:17Marcus Parks?

  Very much so. But in either Coquitlam or Vancouver, it's unclear, Olson met the woman who would become yet another poor soul in the long, sad parade of serial killer spouses that we've covered on this show. Her name was Joan Berryman. But out of all the wives who were tortured and abused by their serial killer husbands, Joan may have gotten at the worst. She's up there, definitely. And the main reason why I told the stories of Evelyn and Debbie's experiences and having a so-called relationship with Clifford Olson is because I think both of those stories are key to understanding Clifford's dynamic with Joan Berryman. Because if you just start with Joan, it doesn't make any fucking sense at all.

• 1:27:01Marcus Parks?

  See, with both Evelyn and Debbie, Clifford Olson learned new techniques in manipulation and control each time. And his skills were at their absolute peak by the time he met Joan at the age of 40. It also helped that Joan was hopelessly naive and Clifford used her inexperience to convince her that his way of living was normal. For example, the relationship, incredible as it may sound, it actually began with rape. Olson met Joan at a bar one night, and after drugging her, he took her to a hotel room. She woke up not remembering anything, but she was absolutely horrified because she knew something had happened. See, Joan was in the middle of a divorce when she met Clifford,

• 1:27:46Marcus Parks?

  but her first marriage had ended after 21 years. And she hadn't even slept with anyone besides her husband. But Clifford knew exactly what to do and what to say to make her feel better. And within four days of meeting her, Clifford had convinced Joan to let him move in with her.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:28:12Speaker 04

  Just be single for a little bit.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  That's what this is about.

• 1:28:16Speaker 04

  Take a moment.

• 1:28:17Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, take a moment. Take a breath. Now, when Joan was later questioned by police, they found her to be, in their words, curiously unworldly.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  It just mean like, she was stupid as fuck. She could barely read. She had a, she had a head full of cheese.

• 1:28:36Marcus Parks?

  No, I would say, curiously unworldly, I wouldn't say it's, it's, it's actually, it's a nice way of saying, like, how can you, how can you be this age and not know what oral sex is?

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  My mom pretended to not know what a blowjob was.

• 1:28:49Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, not out of personal experience, but we were at a dinner, we were literally at dinner and the turb came on. And it was a really awkward thing because it was like we were all visiting from home. And then she, my mom was like, what's a blowjob? And we all sat, we just sat in silence. We sat in silence and we're just like, we're just.

• 1:29:10Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, but that's just, that's one of your mother's things of like trying to just make things really uncomfortable.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Well, she pretended. Yeah. She knew what a blowjob was, I think.

• 1:29:18Speaker 04

  So who explained it to her?

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Hopefully my father did.

• 1:29:23Marcus Parks?

  Joan actually didn't know. Like she was, she really did not know. She spent 21 years, I think just spent 21 years as a housewife. Uh, never left the house and was just very, very, very naive, extremely naive. And also was not, she just, unfortunately, some people just aren't that bright and Joan just was not that bright.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  But he knew, but that's a part of why he flipped it into the cover relationship.

• 1:29:49Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Where like it, she just wasn't like, she just wasn't another rape of his.

• 1:29:54Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  She was like, he was like, oh yes.

• 1:29:56Marcus Parks?

  I can use her. Yeah. Very easy to control. Because she was so naive, Olson was able to quickly integrate himself into her life by endlessly flattering her and making her feel loved. Olson therefore had no problem taking over Joan's life. And after finding her to be unusually pliable, he began involving her in his sex crimes. He convinced her to rent hotel rooms for so-called parties. But these parties were only attended by Clifford, Joan, and teenagers that Clifford had picked up from the street.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Paul Bernardo, shades of Paul Bernardo.

• 1:30:30Marcus Parks?

  Definitely. Sometimes it was just plain children that Clifford brought back. But no matter their age, Clifford would convince Joan to pose nude with these kids before Clifford raped the kids in the very same hotel room. The only explanation I can figure out for this, like, cause they say how naive she is, how curiously unworldly she is. The only explanation I can find is that Clifford had somehow convinced Joan that all of this was normal, but just outside of Joan's experience. Like this is how, you know, this is how things are in 1978, in 1980. You know, this is, it's the eighties. Come on, get with it, Joan.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  You know, she also could have been in a dead marriage, in a dead bed, in a whole thing. And the reason why now that he's, he's love bombing her and giving her physical affection and doing, and appearing physical affection with this and love, all wrapped together, I think that it creates a fake version of it. Exactly. Like this is, this is a, uh, this is what we do. This is kinky stuff. Like this is fun kinky stuff. Not crime.

• 1:31:33Marcus Parks?

  No, it's not crime. No, this is what, this is what, you just, Joan, you just haven't heard about it. This is normal. They've been doing this since the Roman times, Joan.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  They have.

• 1:31:41Speaker 04

  Even fucking idiots know not to get naked with children.

• 1:31:44Marcus Parks?

  No, it depends on how much convincing.

• 1:31:47Speaker 04

  I don't know, Eddie. I don't know, you know?

• 1:31:52Marcus Parks?

  No matter how he managed it, Joan soon fell in love with Clifford Olson. Now Clifford decided to reconnect with the Kleinschmitz after meeting Joan because the Germans had proved to be useful in the past. You don't want to let that tool get rusty. Gisella, however, had finally started to figure out that maybe this Clifford guy wasn't really a Christian. Tellingly, she began forbidding Clifford from spending any time alone with her daughter or any children at all. But even though she wouldn't leave him alone with their kids, the Kleinschmitz still went on fucking vacation with Clifford and Joan.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  We didn't bring the kids.

• 1:32:31Marcus Parks?

  That's how it used to be back in the fucking eighties. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, he's one of my best friends. Wouldn't leave him alone with my son.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had a guy like that.

• 1:32:40Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, but he, but it's like, you just get, they, people just accepted it as normal. Like, oh, yeah, yeah. He's a molester.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  To be honest, I think it's because of how often a lot of these people, that generation got fucking molested and were told it was not a big deal. Like, you know, my, you know, my mom's favorite, favorite statement. It's like, when they molested me, no one took me to an amusement park. The way she drops getting molested is all like, yeah, we were all molested. It's part of what you do.

• 1:33:04Marcus Parks?

  You know what it is? It's almost like, um, how they treat like, uh, like, you know, don't pet a strange dog. Or like, you know, that dog bites. So, you know, like, don't, don't go around that dog because that dog bites. It's like, that's how they treat their molesting friends.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:17Marcus Parks?

  Fucking insane. Yeah. He'll, yeah, he'll get you. If you get too close to him, he'll get at you. Now, all these people went skiing together and Clifford had of course told everyone that he was an expert skier. But when he finally got on the slopes, he wore no gloves, his stomach was hanging out of the fucking t-shirt he was wearing, and his ski boots were on the wrong feet.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  I have ADHD.

• 1:33:40Marcus Parks?

  Gisella said that watching Clifford ski was the most peculiar, comical thing she had ever seen.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  You could just see all the music and him going, going through the, the kids, like he goes down the black diamond. He's like shooting past it into the kids' slopes.

• 1:34:00Speaker 04

  I mean, just lying about skiing is one thing, but you should still know what foot the shoe goes on.

• 1:34:06Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:34:07Speaker 04

  At the bare minimum, he wears shoes every day.

• 1:34:10Marcus Parks?

  Cartoon character.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  I have executive dysfunction.

• 1:34:15Marcus Parks?

  This of course was one of the last encounters the Kleinschmitz would ever have with Clifford Olson. Apparently him lying about skiing, that's just a bridge too far.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  That is a German mortal sin. You cannot do it.

• 1:34:28Marcus Parks?

  You know what I think it was though? Is I, I think with all of the other lies that he told, there was a lot of he said, she said involved in it. And I think when they saw how much he had built himself up to be this expert skier and then they saw like, oh, he doesn't even know which foot the boots go on. They finally realized like, oh, I think he's been lying about everything.

• 1:34:49Speaker 04

  It's just so bizarre that he is such a good liar and he chose this lie.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Well, this shows the pathological nature of it. This shows his true psychopathy. He is living in a fantasy world 24/7.

• 1:35:04Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. And it shows the narcissism too, because I would not be surprised if he was thinking in his head like, how hard can it be? Like, yeah, I was like, yeah, it's like, I can, of course, like I'm, yeah, it's not hard to ski. I'm going to get out there and I'm going to show them everything. Like I don't have to know anything about this. I'm just going to know.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  I'm Clifford Olson, the world's expert at everything.

• 1:35:25Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. Now, as it had been with Debbie and Evelyn, Olson used his shifting moods to keep Joan constantly on edge. But Joan was also desperate to do anything to keep Olson happy. And this also might go some way towards explaining her participation in crimes. His rage with Joan was soon paired with violence, hitting and slapping, and it was escalating at a rapid pace. For example, when Joan expressed the tiniest bit of displeasure towards Clifford for bringing drugged teenagers of all gingers into their home so he could rape them. She'd just say like, I don't like that Clifford. He threatened her with a knife, threatened to kill her with a knife. But the next day, he turned the charm back on and apologized profusely. Then he would talk her into having sex with him.

• 1:36:10Marcus Parks?

  Since Olson had been running scams and committing robbery from the moment he'd last been released from prison, his parole was revoked yet again. As far as how the cops got him this time, it was a combination of hubris and dumb luck. See, the Canadian government was shutting down the old British Columbia penitentiary and it had briefly opened the facility to the public. Clifford had done time there, so he took Joan and his mother on a tour of the prison to show them his old jail cells.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Oh my God. That makes me, that is just wild to just be like, yeah, there was, we raped them over there.

• 1:36:45Marcus Parks?

  And over there.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  And over there is where we were, first time I had Salisbury steak. Over here is where I won the first ever egg race, the disrooping teen race.

• 1:36:57Marcus Parks?

  Well, Clifford Olson waxed nostalgically about the stretch he'd done at BCP. A guard who was still on duty recognized Clifford Olson. And after checking to see if Olson had any outstanding warrants, the guard arrested Olson then and there.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Just, yeah, do you bring your girlfriend, your mother to see your old prison? That is literally a Trailer Park Boys. This is a plot line. That is a plot line out of Trailer Park Boys.

• 1:37:23Speaker 04

  It is. Yeah.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  I want to bring Julie to Tallahassee one day to show her around.

• 1:37:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Be like, this is where I, but then to be like, this is where I sold weed.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Sold weed over here.

• 1:37:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  Well, I guess it's very similar.

• 1:37:38Marcus Parks?

  Now, this is just another short stint in jail lasting only a few weeks. But Joan had already accepted that this life with Clifford, this was her new life. In fact, she said that she was happy to have Clifford back after his release. It kinda sounds like Joan was just one of those people who was pathologically afraid of being alone in any way whatsoever.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Codependent.

• 1:38:01Marcus Parks?

  But such was the power of Clifford's aforementioned magnetism. And no one was more affected by Clifford's powers than Joan. She stuck with him for the time being, even after he immediately returned to a life committing both sex crimes and theft upon his release. See, the thing about Clifford Olson is that even though he did get caught a lot, he made a lot of money when he was on the outside, which I'm sure helped keep people around. They said that Clifford, and everyone said this, gave people $20 tips without even thinking. And this is, you know, 70s.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, he lost his money as soon as he made it. He was wildly psychopathic.

• 1:38:41Marcus Parks?

  Well, it was not even that he lost it as soon as he made it. It was that he had certain scams that gave him an almost endless supply of money. At least living at the level that he was living at.

• 1:38:52Speaker 04

  Also tipping people really big helps them help you cover up your crime.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  Absurdist. Everybody's happy that you're making money. You're sharing money.

• 1:39:00Marcus Parks?

  You know what? It's funny. Yeah, narcissists, big tippers.

• 1:39:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:04Marcus Parks?

  Huge tippers.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Well, I like, I'm a big tipper. But I also believe the idea of, well, you can't just believe every single transaction is transactional.

• 1:39:12Marcus Parks?

  Well, there's a difference between being a big tipper and being an obscenely large tipper.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not trying to get something on everybody, but most of the time, the time I'm tipping you, I'm hammered. That's the problem, really.

• 1:39:22Speaker 04

  I gotta quit. He doesn't seem like he got fucked up that much.

• 1:39:26Marcus Parks?

  No, no.

• 1:39:26Speaker 04

  He was pretty sober?

• 1:39:28Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, no, I mean, he drank like a Canadian drinks.

• 1:39:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:32Marcus Parks?

  Like, yeah, I would say he drank.

• 1:39:34Speaker 04

  So he's blind drunk all the time?

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  I do legitimately believe he, it was, he was quite in control.

• 1:39:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  He knew what to do.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  Like, he knew if he drank too much, he wouldn't be able to pull this shit off.

• 1:39:46Marcus Parks?

  Totally.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  I think so. I believe that.

• 1:39:47Marcus Parks?

  And like, not necessarily on the level of like Manson, you know, where everybody around him is completely fucked up out of it and he's totally bone sober. He's having a couple beers, but the person, people he's trying to take advantage of, they're having a lot of beers and they're also having a lot of beers that he's drugged with roofies.

• 1:40:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:40:05Marcus Parks?

  But as far as Clifford's and his money went, his most profitable scam was a refund return scheme that he called rehashing. And this is a trick he allegedly learned at the age of seven. While he rehashed to great effect at all sorts of stores, one of his most reliable targets was record shops.

• 1:40:24Speaker 04

  You bastard.

• 1:40:27Marcus Parks?

  The scam would go like this. Olson would browse around the store and select two copies each of a dozen records. But while he would take one stack of the dozen to the register, he would hide the duplicates to those dozen records throughout the store. And he had an incredible memory, so he remembered where he hid each and every one. After paying for the dozen, he would take the records out to his car and then come back in with his receipt. He would then retrieve the duplicates he had hidden and use his receipt to get a full refund, saying he had changed his mind. And then he would make even more money by selling the stolen records at half price on the street, so no one ever once questioned him when doing this.

• 1:41:12Marcus Parks?

  Now, the records didn't make him a ton of money, but he made real cash when he figured out how to do this same type of scam with construction equipment and particularly VCRs. Because in the late 70s, VCRs sold for thousands of dollars. The modern equivalent of about, like, a VCR cost the modern equivalent of about $5,000 or $6,000 in the late 1970s.

• 1:41:36Speaker 04

  I remember.

• 1:41:36Marcus Parks?

  But since most of these stores didn't even know they were robbed until they did inventory months later, Olson was more or less impossible to catch when he rehashed. And he estimated he made around $5,000 a day in today's money with this con.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:41:54Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. But while he could have been set making rehashing his one and only con, he didn't have to do everything else, Clifford Olson was addicted to the thrill of crime and the power that it gave him over other people. So he paired rehashing with several more scams on the elderly and any other vulnerable person he could find, even though there was no need for it. He just liked doing horrible shit.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, he just didn't like working. That's for certain.

• 1:42:25Marcus Parks?

  No, he didn't like working, but he also, that's the thing, rehashing $5,000 a day.

• 1:42:30Speaker 04

  It's enough.

• 1:42:31Marcus Parks?

  That's more than enough. He's fine.

• 1:42:33Speaker 04

  There was a scam that some of the guys did in my school. I would, I never did this one, but I was always very impressed by it. There was a friend of ours that was like a cash register person at the Best Buy. And what they would do is they'd get a CD tower and fill it with CDs and then put it back in the box and then sell the CD tower. And then you'd walk out, you'd have a bunch of CDs, and then that person would sell the CDs at school. That's a good one. That's a real good one.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  This is why you don't let teenagers run your entire fucking store. This is another example. That's one of those.

• 1:43:05Marcus Parks?

  Little by little, Joan was beginning to realize that maybe Clifford wasn't such a great guy after all. But by July of 1980, Joan was unfortunately pregnant. But while the pregnancy did extend the relationship by a few more months, it wasn't enough to keep Joan from finally leaving Clifford. Ironically though, Joan left Clifford only after he had finally completed all his parole requirements. Technically, Clifford Olson had a clean slate. And by September of 1980, he was legally and officially a free man. This was one of the few times that this had been the case since Clifford had been arrested for the first time 23 years earlier. But even though Clifford was now free to do whatever, Joan left Clifford in November

• 1:43:50Marcus Parks?

  of 1980 using a Dear John letter. She called out Clifford for being a drunk who liked having sex with boys. And she told him to not bother looking for him, specifically saying that she was not at her mother's house.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  I'm not there, so don't even think of looking for me there.

• 1:44:08Marcus Parks?

  Olson was, of course, enraged. And as it often happens with serial killers, this loss of control over his own life led to a series of events that ended with Clifford Olson committing his first of 11 murders. So after reading the Dear John letter, Olson bought a case of beer, a bottle of vodka, and a carton of orange juice. He then rented a car and went out looking for someone young. And it was at this moment that he came across a 12-year-old girl named Christine Weller out riding her bike. Olson lured her into his car by offering her a beer. And once she climbed in and left her bike behind, Olson offered her a job, washing windows at his construction company.

• 1:44:51Marcus Parks?

  Now, Olson did technically own a construction company, but the entire thing was just another scam. It was all on paper. He'd actually started it with Joan's brother so he could defraud other construction companies with various schemes. But it also served to make Clifford Olson appear as a legit person. Because if you can't trust a contractor, who can you really trust in this world?

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Exactly. Of all the jobs in the world, yes, contractor. The most dependable, trustworthy man and woman in the whole world.

• 1:45:24Speaker 04

  How do they always get the price right, right at the top?

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  They always know what to do. They know exactly how long it's gonna take. They're easy to get a hold of. They show up for work every time.

• 1:45:35Marcus Parks?

  When they say it'll take two days.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  It takes two days.

• 1:45:40Marcus Parks?

  Now Clifford had even made up business cards for his company. So he handed one to Christine at this very moment to bolster his story. He told her that he already had a bunch of girls working for him. And it was a, it's a cool scene working for Clifford Olson. These girls, they just smoke weed all day long while they're washing the windows. I don't care. I smoke weed too. I'm cool.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you 12-year-old girl.

• 1:46:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's so funny. Like, in America, we kidnap kids with candy.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is literally, I just, I'm trying to think of, like, not to be, I'm not trying to blame.

• 1:46:12Speaker 04

  Hey, stop there. Jumping that rope. I got a beer.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  I'm not trying to remotely victim blame, but it takes a Canadian little girl to be into a Molson's from a car. There's something about that of just being like, oh, yeah, I'll take a couple of suds.

• 1:46:25Marcus Parks?

  I mean, it's not even, Canada, at 12, you wouldn't get me into a car with candy, but you would have got me into a car with a beer. I was, at 12, I was already drinking.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Well, you're a Texas boy.

• 1:46:36Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  You would have got me in there with the promise of a shot on Broadway.

• 1:46:42Marcus Parks?

  But the beer, I think, I don't, actually, I don't know if it's a Canada thing or a Texas thing. I think it's just a eighties, nineties thing.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:46:50Speaker 04

  I was scared of all that shit till sixteen.

• 1:46:52Marcus Parks?

  No, no, no, no, no. But the beers that Clifford had been giving to Christine were, of course, spiked with chloral hydrate pills. And when Christine started drifting off, Clifford gave her more pills. He told her that the pills actually countered the effects of alcohol. He called them wake-up pills. And he even pretended to take a couple himself to show her it was safe. Christine, of course, passed out after they drove around for hours on end because Clifford was looking for the perfect spot to rape this twelve-year-old in seclusion. He had not, as far as we know, decided to murder her at this point. Finally, he chose a spot off the main road where he'd done this same thing to many other kids. And after he raped Christine while she was unconscious,

• 1:47:35Marcus Parks?

  he got back in the driver's seat to take her to his apartment. He found, however, that his car was firmly stuck in the mud. Now Clifford spent an hour trying to get himself out because he couldn't very well call a tow truck with Christine in the car. But his rage, paired with the underlying anger from Joan's letter, only grew with each passing minute. So he finally decided that the only way to get his car out was with a tow truck. And the only way he could call a tow truck is if he got rid of Christine Weller permanently. And that's how cold this decision was. He didn't kill her because he had an overwhelming urge like Jeffrey Dahmer, or because he had momentarily lost control like John Wayne

• 1:48:20Marcus Parks?

  Gacy. Olsen killed Christine Weller because she was an obstacle to Clifford getting on with his day.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  It was a practical choice.

• 1:48:29Marcus Parks?

  Additionally, I think that the clumsiness of this murder is what tells you that it was almost certainly Clifford's first. Clifford was forty years old in nineteen eighty, which is unusually late in life for a serial killer to begin a spree that takes almost a dozen victims. But it's important to note that while Clifford Olson undoubtedly took sexual pleasure from his murders, he began his serial killing career out of narcissistic self-preservation. And he continued murdering, mostly with that same motivation. That's why I think this is his first murder, because it's, he's so chaotic with all the rest of his crimes and he gets caught for most everything else. If he would have murdered before then, he

• 1:49:14Marcus Parks?

  would have gotten caught and he would not have stopped. If he would have one, if he would have murdered one person when he was twenty-one, he would have kept.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  And it worked?

• 1:49:21Marcus Parks?

  And it worked, he would have kept, he would have murdered people at twenty-two, twenty-three. He would have just kept doing it and getting crazier and crazier because that's how he was.

• 1:49:27Speaker 01

  Especially if it worked.

• 1:49:28Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, if he had found that it was a process that worked, he definitely would have done it because everything was about aiding or bedding just his lifestyle of crime.

• 1:49:37Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. And these murders, like, it's like a year and a half. It's like eleven murders in a year and a half. Because that's, that's his personality. He finds something he likes and he does it over and over and over again.

• 1:49:47Speaker 04

  It's almost like he was scared to murder because he thought he was gonna get caught.

• 1:49:50Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  And then he realized that's the way to not get caught, because I'm already not getting busted for sexual assault. But if I want to make sure I'm not gonna get busted for sexual assault, I'll get rid of the evidence.

• 1:49:58Marcus Parks?

  Mm-hmm. So after Clifford decided to kill Christine Weller, he pulled the laces out of her shoes and tried using those to strangle her. She was still alive after his first attempt, so he pulled them tight around her throat again and counted to one hundred and twenty. Her face turned blue, then purple, so Olsen figured that was that. But when he let go of the shoestrings again, Christine coughed. She was still alive. So Olsen tried suffocating her by holding his hand over her nose and mouth. That didn't work either, so Olsen tried the shoelaces again. This time, the shoelaces snapped. Both frustrated by his failure, but also aroused by the violence, Olsen decided to rape Christine a second

• 1:50:40Marcus Parks?

  time. But after he finished, he decided to use a foolproof method to finish it. He grabbed a four-inch buck knife from his rental car and dragged Christine out into a thicket of blackberry bushes. When she was far away from the car, Clifford plunged the knife into her heart twice before slitting her throat, which ended her life at long last. He then took her clothes, cut them up, and tossed the pile of rags into the river. Her ID card was burned, her jewelry thrown into a ditch, and the knife he used was broken and thrown into the river. This would be Clifford's MO for cleanup almost every time. With rare exceptions, Clifford was careful to never leave behind evidence or keep trophies, nor

• 1:51:23Marcus Parks?

  did he get sentimental about weapons. As I said, this was all just a narcissistic means to an end for Clifford Olson.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  It's just another crime.

• 1:51:32Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. And after finishing the cleanup, Olsen absentmindedly walked back to his car. And he suddenly remembered the whole reason why he killed Christine in the first place.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  I, this godforsaken ADHD. I have got this stuff right stuffed down.

• 1:51:50Marcus Parks?

  His car was still stuck, so Olsen had an actual forehead slap moment shortly after murdering someone for the first time.

• 1:51:58Speaker 04

  You know, it is aggravating getting stuck in the mud.

• 1:52:01Marcus Parks?

  It is. No, you're right. It is. It's very aggravating.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Super aggravating. But I bet you the tow truck driver wouldn't have blinked twice at the little girl fucking knocked out in there. He'd be like, oh, yeah, nice.

• 1:52:12Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Speaker 04

  So, the thing is, though, you said he didn't leave any evidence behind, but he had sex with her.

• 1:52:17Marcus Parks?

  Yes.

• 1:52:18Speaker 04

  Oh, there's no DNA? It's nineteen eighty?

• 1:52:20Marcus Parks?

  Nineteen eighty. Yeah. The best they can do is, in nineteen eighty-

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Is that if you're a secreter or a non-secreter, it's one of those?

• 1:52:27Marcus Parks?

  And maybe, I think that at this point, they might be able to match, like, blood type to semen type. But even then, that's not, that, you know, that's circumstantial, that doesn't hold up in court.

• 1:52:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, they probably think he's in some prison.

• 1:52:39Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, maybe. And so, at four AM, Olsen walked to a nearby hotel and called a tow truck. And while waiting, Olsen took a taxi home, changed clothes, and threw everything he'd worn during the murder into an incinerator. And he did that every time. He then called his mother and discovered that while Joan had not gone to her own mother's place, as she said in the letter, she had gone to Clifford's mother's house in Coquitlam. Apparently, while Clifford was murdering a twelve-year-old, the two women in his life had been up all night talking about the problems of living and dealing with Clifford.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  What do we do with a boy like Clifford? What do we do with him? That's my thing. What do we do with him?

• 1:53:26Marcus Parks?

  I've been thinking to myself, what do you do with a boy like Clifford?

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  I think we sit and we give him a good talking to.

• 1:53:32Marcus Parks?

  A good talking to is, that's a good idea.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  And we take away his syrup.

• 1:53:36Speaker 04

  I can't believe she went back to his mother's house.

• 1:53:41Marcus Parks?

  Of course. Not only did she go to his mother's house, like Clifford's mother ended up putting Joan on the phone. And while Joan said that Clifford was calm and in control, she claimed that she felt a, quote, "evil presence" coming over the phone while they were speaking. And even so, he told her, "I'll see you later." And after returning to the hotel, Clifford met the tow truck, and his car was finally pulled out of the mud while Christine's rapidly decomposing body lay in the blackberry bushes just a stone's throw away. The car was, as I said, a rental. So after cleaning and returning it, Clifford got in his own car and drove to his mother's place in Coquitlam, where he once again charmed Joan into taking him back.

• 1:54:23Speaker 04

  No!

• 1:54:24Marcus Parks?

  Clifford Olson had just committed the first of eleven murders. And we'll get to each and everyone next week on the conclusion to our series on Clifford Olson.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  And I tell you what I can't wait. He's my favorite Canadian offender.

• 1:54:40Marcus Parks?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  They love saying "offender."

• 1:54:43Marcus Parks?

  "Offender."

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:54:45Speaker 04

  Who are the other ones? Robert Pickton? There been other?

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Many.

• 1:54:48Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, it's Carla Hummel, or was it, but there-

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  Carla Hummel and Paul Bernardo.

• 1:54:52Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, Paul Bernardo, yeah.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  There's been many different-

• 1:54:55Marcus Parks?

  The Ken and Barbie killers.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  There's been other Canadian serial killers, but he's definitely, arguably, the most famous one besides-

• 1:55:03Marcus Parks?

  Pickton. I would say he might actually be more famous than Pickton.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, technically.

• 1:55:08Marcus Parks?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  It was a bigger deal because of the scandal that we'll cover next week.

• 1:55:11Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. Not surprisingly, a lot of Canadian serial killers have never been caught. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  They go right back into the Yukon.

• 1:55:18Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's a thing called the Highway of Tears, that, you know, we might get into one day, but it's a-

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Many Indigenous women went missing.

• 1:55:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, they had the whole school thing, too.

• 1:55:28Marcus Parks?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:55:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. They go hide there because, you know, you can't catch them there.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  And another-

• 1:55:35Marcus Parks?

  Patreon.com slash-

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Crime against the memory of the Indigenous.

• 1:55:40Marcus Parks?

  Podcast on the left. If you want to give a little bit of kish for jokes like that.

• 1:55:47Speaker 04

  All the way, we made it all the way to the end.

• 1:55:49Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. And if you want to see the stream live every Tuesday at five PM PST, that is to be watched on our Patreon, Patreon.com slash Last Podcast on the Left. Don't cost too much money to get in there and talk to us on the chat and interact with us as we do this stream thing live. Had a lot of fun on the stream this week.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  God, it was great. I love doing the stream.

• 1:56:11Marcus Parks?

  It was real fun this week.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  I really do love doing the stream. Go see all our YouTubes. Go on the LPN TV over on YouTube. See, the Bloodbath77 is now completely out. It is fucking incredible. And we are gearing up for another season at some point, I do imagine. And then we also got, check out our, we're about to announce the second printing of our Halloween sound effects album. And you will get that information very, very- Soon it's gonna be coming up by Halloween.

• 1:56:37Speaker 04

  Sounds like you just announced it.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  I announced it last week, but I still don't have the specific day.

• 1:56:41Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  We're waiting on the specific day, but we know it's gonna be ready by Halloween.

• 1:56:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:56:46Marcus Parks?

  We really need to stop telling people about stuff before we have specific days.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  The problem is, is that then they say, you didn't say anything about the stuff. And I'm trying to talk about the stuff to remind them of the stuff as much as I can, because then we get the day and then I forget to announce it.

• 1:57:02Marcus Parks?

  It's hard. People, yeah, things happen.

• 1:57:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I'd like to remind these fuckers, I'm gonna be in Denver on Sunday.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:10Speaker 04

  I sold out the first show. Come to the second one. It's gonna be a blast at the Comedy Works. Downtown, me, Julie Rosen, having a great fucking time. And then next weekend, Henry and I are gonna be in Brooklyn and Hartford.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Back in Brooklyn.

• 1:57:26Speaker 04

  That's right. And then following the rest of the month, Los Angeles, October 14th, the Stray Theater. Redway, California, the Meteo Community Center. Henry and I are gonna be on that. And then the very next day, in the afternoon, on October 25th, I'm gonna be at Cobb's Comedy Club, splitting time with the wonderful Billy Wayne Davis.

• 1:57:44Marcus Parks?

  Yeah. Oh, and don't forget to come out and see us at New York Comic Con.

• 1:57:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, baby, Thursday. Yeah, Thursday's the panel and Saturday's the signing.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, come check out. We're gonna have a good time.

• 1:57:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, we love you guys.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  Hail, sweet Satan.

• 1:57:56Marcus Parks?

  Hugging.

• 1:57:57Speaker 04

  Hail, uh, you know, I'll pick another member from the band, Richard Manuel.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Really good.

• 1:58:02Marcus Parks?

  Richard Manuel's also pretty great.

• 1:58:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful man.

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Again, everybody, anybody but.

• 1:58:08Marcus Parks?

  Robbie Robertson.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Robbie Robertson.

• 1:58:09Speaker 04

  But they like him.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  We know he's a great, he's a delible and a necessary part of the band. He did ruin it for everybody else.

• 1:58:16Marcus Parks?

  Yeah, and a good actor as well.

• 1:58:17Speaker 04

  I will say, if anything, I think that's debatable. They were all pretty fucked up and he did all the work.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  I feel like this is pushing him back towards an apologist statement.

• 1:58:27Marcus Parks?

  Seems like somebody hasn't read Levon Helm's autobiography.

• 1:58:30Speaker 04

  No, I haven't.

• 1:58:31Marcus Parks?

  Different story.

• 1:58:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know there was. I know, I know, I know, but at the same time, he was trashed.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  Wow. Jesus fucking Christ, at the end of the episode.

• 1:58:40Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Get out of here.

• 1:58:42Marcus Parks?

  Shots fired on Levon Helm at the end?

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  We're gonna get the fuck out of here before we fucking do worse.

• 1:58:46Speaker 04

  He's my favorite member of the band.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  He was the only American.

• 1:58:49Speaker 04

  Well, we have to stand up for him.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Actually, Rick Danko's the best member of the band. But what are we doing there?

• 1:58:53Marcus Parks?

  Uh, Rick Danko played a organ, right? Keyboard?

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  No, that was Richard Manuel.

• 1:58:57Marcus Parks?

  No, that was Richard Manuel.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  And then the other guy, the crazy guy, Garth Hudson, he also played the keys in the organ. I like Bob Seger.

• 1:59:03Marcus Parks?

  They were the best ones.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah. Shout out to Amy Helm. I hope everything goes well for you. Everything that's happening over there at the Midnight Ramble is fucked up, and I hope, uh, everything works out good for you.

• 1:59:13Marcus Parks?

  Figure it out.

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