"Lubed + Pinned" (w/ Jenna Lyons)

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• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Season four of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is here.

• 0:07Speaker 02

  This year, hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson-Rosso are unzipping the truth, challenging stereotypes, celebrating sex positivity, and keeping things delightfully unfiltered.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Tune in for jaw-dropping, hilarious, and insightful chats with some of the boldest voices in the queer community, and dive deep into the history of cruising, queer scenes from Atlanta to Puerto Rico, how OnlyFans is reshaping adult content, and so much more.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Feeling curious, maybe a little bold? Just push play.

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  Listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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  Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences.

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  Do you want to know the secret to life? It's Depop. And by life, I mean affordable fashion.

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• 1:08Speaker 01

  Hey, everybody. It's me, Matt, and my tour is on sale now. This time, it's really Christmas. You can go to www dot matt rogers official dot com. Podcasts are a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl. It's called Have You Heard of Christmas? The answer to that question is coming. At this time, it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country, and in London, and in Canada. That makes it a world tour. Harry Styles, you're on burn notice. I'll see you soon.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  Okay, so we all just found out.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  I'm disappointed.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  What did you get?

• 1:44Speaker 02

  I'm a faithful.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  You are?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Yes. I did not want to be.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  I actually would rather be a traitor.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Traitor? No, actually, can I just say?

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty good.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  I bought it.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  No, I told her she'd be good. I think that you would be good.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Jenna, you would be.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  You have to go on.

• 2:00Speaker 03

  You guys, let's do it.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Okay. Hey, NBC. We're available. We're just gonna have to stay in like, a windowless motel by the airport for like, three weeks.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Wait, excuse me, isn't it like, in a big chateau?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Girl, no.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Look, Matt.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Where?

• 2:18Speaker 04

  Oh, I see. Wow. Hi. Bowen, look over there. Wow, is that culture? Yes. Goodness. Las Culturistas.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Ding dong, Las Culturistas calling. This is the first ever episode where we've had to lube up a guest. And I don't mean that in like, the fun, social, lubricant way. Like, we've had to socially lube up all our guests, you know what I mean?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Like, you gotta kind of get them comfy.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Comforty.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Comfortable. Comfortable.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  I like comfy. No, no, no.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Because you know how when you're little, you say comfortable?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Comforty.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  But wait, when you were little, you said comfortable?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  I think that's the right way to say it. That's the right way to say it.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Comfortable.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  I say comfortable.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  So then, should it be comfy?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm saying, I like comfy. I think you stumbled on a really nice, new linguistic seasoning.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  It's something our guest can't possibly be. But I also think she's probably comfy in stuff like this all the time by virtue of being who she is.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Well, we just, our guest and I just had like, a tete-a-tete about legs. We both have leg envy for the other person. And this is, we're just gonna be volleying stuff back and forth with her, I can tell. She's coming in, she's gonna really stimulate us. She looks stunning. Oh, my god.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  She looks like the picture of what a stimulant is. Like, if you made a stimulant a person, it is kind of what JFL, her middle name being fucking, is giving us.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  JFL, just for laughs.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Just for laughs today.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Just for laughs today. I mean, this actually came about quite organically. We've obviously loved her. We've loved her for, as long as we've parasocially known her.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Some of us were fans of Stylish with Jenna Lyons, okay? Some of us were streaming HBO Max's Stylish with Jenna Lyons, a reality competition kind of show, because she wasn't sure if she wanted an assistant. But that was the show. It was like, a bunch of people came in, she wasn't sure if she needed anyone, but she was gonna see.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  She's amazing.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  And that was what made it brilliant for me.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  We were at the Pride Night for the US Open.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  And naturally, we are gay people who might enjoy tennis. I think we were on a list of, that someone compiled, of gay, gay, gay folks who might like tennis.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Who might enjoy tennis. That was what the list probably was. Gay folks who might enjoy tennis. And all of our three names were on it.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  And so there we were. And then, we had a truly sublime conversation with her.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  And you're gonna find out the content of that conversation. It is the most shocking admission you've heard in a long time.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  But I think the reason why it was so stimulating, and why we're all very excited to have this conversation is because she, at the time, she seemed very open to discussing this podcast, I believe. Okay, yes. And she still is.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  She's gonna discuss it.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  She's gonna discuss it. And she has more experience in this gay guy thing about culture than we are.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Thank god.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  If you can believe it.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Someone's in the field.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Someone's in the field. Well, she...

• 5:18Speaker 01

  She's a fucking fashion icon.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  She's a fucking fashion icon.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  She's even more than that. I mean, she's a television icon. She is...

• 5:24Speaker 02

  She had all the right enemies on Rony, in my book.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And we gotta get the, I wonder if there even is a take to get from her now.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  She doesn't have to give us one. But you know, we love every facet of this gorgeous diamond, don't we?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  So please welcome into your ears, Jenna Lyons! How are you doing over there in your lubed-up latex?

• 5:47Speaker 03

  I'm actually sweaty and a little bit hot and bothered, but I'm here.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Did you talcum powder? Did you baby powder?

• 5:52Speaker 03

  You have to do it all. But the problem is that, like, the nether regions, like, you just, there are things you can't.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  You can't get to the nethers.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  You just can't, like, really prepare them for what's about to happen.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Sure. But I've had talcum powder. Talcum powder on the nether regions is quite fabulous.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  I just, but then, when there's a latex, like, truss happening in between, that's a totally different vibe.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's a thing. Yeah, no, oh, yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Your truss.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it definitely, like, it likes to really make its way.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Everywhere.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Can we describe where, where is it sitting now?

• 6:23Speaker 03

  It's, it's probably, you know, I guess I would say, making its way up, particularly in the back section.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  It's going north in the back.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  In the back. It likes to creep. It's, the more I move, the worse it gets.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  We're not gonna make you move.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I'm gonna just sit.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Staying like this the whole time?

• 6:40Speaker 03

  I'm gonna just stay like this.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Good.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  The worst part is, like, getting it off, and then taking it off, because there's something that happens while I'm wearing it.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Is it a smell?

• 6:48Speaker 03

  You don't breathe, really. None of it breathes. And so, yes, then, all these kinds of nice, really, like, it's, I'm making myself seem really hot.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  No, but I mean, there is something about, there is, there is the image, and then there is the work behind the image. The reality, exactly.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  That's what I think about every time I watch, like, a period piece, and all I can think about is how bad their breasts smell, and how bad their pits smell, and how bad their nether regions smell. Can you, like, have you watched East of Eden?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  I have.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  We spoke about this on the pod.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  We spoke about this. It's kind of like, one of the filthiest times you could ever be alive.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Imagine, and like, all of that, like, sucking and fucking.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing about, they really did suck and fuck in the filth, in the annals of history.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  They really did.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Think about how bad sex always smelt forever.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  That's how, that's all I can think, dangerously, it's like, I can't, I remember watching the film, and all I could think about was, there was a lot of fucking and sucking.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Fucking and sucking and smelling.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  And all I could think about was what the nether regions smelled like.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Well, this dovetails nicely into your obsession.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Which is fucking and sucking. In kind of the filthiest places, places that are even filthier than East of Eden, than Steinbeck Land.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Do you want to tell everyone what app you have downloaded on your phone?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  It's not an app, even.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 8:00Speaker 03

  Okay, so I somehow became upset. I heard about this thing called Sniffy's, but I didn't know what it was, and I...

• 8:07Speaker 01

  So, you endeavored to explore.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Because I was told that there was, that there were just like... Oh, god.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  No, no, no, sorry. We want to interrupt. Go.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay. So, a person told me about it, because I don't know if they want me to out them, but they were telling me about the fact that, like, you can just see, you know, where all the dicks are. And I'm clearly not looking for one, but I'm curious.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  You want to know.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  I want to know where they are. I don't need to have it, because I like other things.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  But I want to know. And when you actually go onto the website, all of the dicks in your neighborhood pop up. It's a picture.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Some of them are beautiful.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Some of them are bent. Some of them are turned. Some of them are straight. Some of them are hard. Some of them are soft. It's like a cornucopia. And they're all in my neighborhood. I mean, I live in Soho, and it is like...

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that's, there's some of the craziest penises.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  Cornucopia. But then I heard, then I heard that you can, so like, I had to find out more. So I'm sure you guys, have you been on this?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  I've been, I browse. You can browse it anonymously.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Yes, same. I'm not, I'm, I'm definitely...

• 9:11Speaker 03

  No one knows that I'm browsing.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Well, so they do have an, and we can advertise them here. They have an official podcast that I'm sure they would now love to welcome you on.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Wait, have you been on it?

• 9:20Speaker 02

  No. Matt and I are not people to speak to anonymous, sort of like, spur-of-the-moment sexual encounters.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Not anymore. There was a time, and also, I've said all of it on this podcast. It's our own content.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  But the sexual deviancy I had from like, 26 to 29 on the New York streets, like, I kind of like, it exists there.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  It's, okay, got it. Yeah, dude. So you haven't used it?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  I've used it to look at the dicks in my neighborhood.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  Right. Which is nice to know, right?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  It's so nice to know. And for people who might not be in the know, Sniffy's is a website.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Where you, it is more of a Gator than Grindr is, in the literal sense where you're looking at a plot of a map that has...

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Just literally images. But the thing that's so crazy, that I could not believe is, you know, there's a door. So like, there's a back door that says, open. You know what this is?

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Okay, the icon. On the side is a door that's open. But what I didn't know is it basically means you can just come.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  And you can literally come dump.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  So basically, is this concept where you could just go over to someone's house? If there's a back door, it means you can come in, you can. Sometimes they'll just be ass up, waiting for you. Sometimes there is an actual Sharpie on the bed.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  And the idea is that you can then, you get a load counter.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Who comes up with this shit?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I think some of the most brilliant men in New York are also these gay men. I think that's the thing about our big, our great, big, beautiful community.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  No, I love it.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Is we are a creative fount.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  Well, and also like, no shame. I mean, it is like, full on, like, this is, this is what I want. And someone's gonna give it to me and you actually can go in and find exactly what you want.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  I think it's fascinating.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  You know, it is. And also, it's kind of interesting to where you find out it's really popping off. Because you're talking about Soho and like, how there's a lot going on there. When we were in Walt Disney World, our friend pulled out his sniffies and there were bukkakes everywhere.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  And that's not surprising, honestly. I'm, I went to a sex club with my old boyfriend years ago when I was 27. He was writing a story for The New Yorker about sex clubs in New York. And so he's like, will you come with me to these sex clubs? And I'm like, have we met? And so we went and most of the men in them were Hasidic Jews. And full regalia, long pay ass. And I was, it, it, it makes sense. Like, a lot of times, places where people are like, feel like, they have to be perfect or they're like, it actually is the place where the playground becomes more interesting. Because it's like, about repression and, and freedom. And there's something so fascinating about that. But I thought that was so unusual. I was, I was so taken aback because I didn't really understand that world and I got to know it.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Is there something like conceptual about the fascination for you? Where it's like, these are people who are waiting ass up, unlocked door, presenting themselves in this very specific way. Where you've kind of, not to like tie it into your professional life or the way you see the world. But it's like, oh, but you think a lot about how people present themselves out in the world in a public, non-anonymous way. And these are people anonymously being like, I will, I have an open door to this apartment unit. I will be waiting for at least two hours.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Easily.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Ass up. It's like, I mean, that's its own sort of meditative state to be like, like, I, like, are you coming at it from that angle?

• 12:48Speaker 03

  I think what I find like, really special and honestly, quite beautiful. But I know it sounds creepy and weird and to some people, I think. But I think, I, when I moved to New York, my very first friend was a gay boy. And like, I realized how completely repressed. Like, I think I'd been taught that so many things that I thought about or that I was intrigued by were bad. Or something to shy away from or be quiet about. And then I, like, I moved to New York and I met these gay boys. And I was like, oh, the joy in like, being devious, the joy in being touched, the joy in talking about stuff that seemed taboo. The joy in like, freedom, like, was so online. And I'd never experienced that in my life.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  And so I find this kind of place where people can be anything they want and there is no shame. I find it really intriguing and fascinating. Because I think we spend so much time making people feel bad about all of their proclivities. And I think, like, having interesting proclivities is more interesting.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. And I also feel like, there's something about, I remember when I first, like, because I was closeted, there's closeted. And then I feel like there's this misconception around when people come out, like, congratulations, now you're yourself. And it takes so much longer to get to know yourself after you've said the words out loud. Like, how am, who am I now? And so, it takes a few years for you to really even connect sex to that. Like, I remember, all through my first boyfriend, we really didn't have sex. And it wasn't until after him that I got on Grindr, where I felt like I could actually explore who I was in terms of sexual identity. And you really surprise yourself.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  Why, why didn't you have sex with your first boyfriend?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I was, okay, just to be totally honest about it, I was afraid of it.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that makes sense.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  I think that I, you know, had a.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  What were you afraid of?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  I think I was afraid of pain. I think I was afraid of the imperfection of performing gay sex and maybe like, having accidents happen. This is before, I think, I really had a network of people where we were all really talking to each other about like, hey, nothing's the end of the world. Yeah, exactly, you know, colon broom. This is before those words were even invented together.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  You love colon broom.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, colon broom's great and they will send you products.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  I could, no, I was curious about like, how do you make sure that you're like, prepared?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Well, and you don't know until you know.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  And at that time, I do feel like our generation of gay men is interesting. Because it's like, we were still 12 and 13 when Eminem was saying like, the F slur on the radio. And yet, we're now adults and people are kind of like, you're fine, figure it out. You have all the rights in the world, you guys can talk about whatever you want. And we're still dealing with the shame. So our twenties were a little weird with that.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  How old were you when you came out?

• 15:32Speaker 01

  19.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  19, okay, so that's kind of late, though, honestly. Why do you think?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  For us, not really.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, for, yeah, like, for like, millennials, yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  That's around the time.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  But what do you think? What do you make of that?

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Well, I'm just thinking about, like, I was in college in the 90s. And so, I remember all of my friends, it was just starting to happen. Like, people were starting to come out. And, I mean, I can, I feel like that was when, you know, that it was taboo at that point. Like, people were just starting to come out, but AIDS was also happening. And so, it was a very complicated time. But, you know, I feel like now, I mean, I have a son. I guess, I guess I'm relating you to an earlier time. But I think, my son now, like, I remember asking him, you know, are you gay? Like, would you, would you want to date boys or girls? And he looked at me and he goes, Mom, like, nobody asked, it doesn't matter. Like, why are you asking me? I don't know. It doesn't matter anymore. Like, you don't need to be one thing or the other. Like, I'll fall in love with whoever I fall in love with.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  And I was like, the level of privilege that that feeling is, you've no idea. But also, like, how fucking incredible that, like, it's not even a question anymore. It's just like, whoever you meet is who the person you're gonna fall in love with. But I would have thought, so if you were, you came out in 2008?

• 16:41Speaker 01

  2008, 2009. It was just interesting because at that time, too, we really didn't have a lot of different words. It was like, you're gay.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  So then I, we kind of entered the world as a gay guy. And I guess what I was connecting the thought to is, it almost feels like the fear was a part of it.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Like, the illicitness of like, I remember the things that made me horniest when I was like, 26, 27, like, discovering Grindr and going and hooking up with guys I didn't know, was, there was specifically a guy, I remember, he was like, I'm gonna be on my knees, blindfolded. I'm wearing a jockstrap, come in, I will suck your dick. And then you will, you will leave. And I will never see you.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  I fucking love this. This is, I mean, how hot is that?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  So, especially for someone whose whole thing has been. And I think I speak for a lot of people, right? Like, you've experienced this, like, where it's kind of like, you're like, wow. The fact that this is so crazy and I don't know what's gonna happen, is the thing.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  How did you get over the fear, though, of like, the pain and all that other stuff?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  So, the, in terms of like, penetrative anal sex, honestly, the, I, I give it up to RuPaul. Like, he honestly said one time, and this, this helped me. He said on TV, he said, if you want it, it will not hurt. And I gotta tell you, Jenna Lyons, that is true. If you want it, it will not hurt. And I have been.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  The nerves in your sphincter will just loosen up.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's just like, I had never thought of it like, I had never thought of it like, if I do my due diligence here, meaning I get prepared and stuff like that.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  And that, learning how to do, should do all that was a whole other thing.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  But once you check your boxes and you actually come at it in a way where you really should be going into every, every sexual experience, like, I want to do this, I want to connect with this person that way. I'm open to it, you're good.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  And also, I think a certain level of trust that someone's gonna like, take the time with you and like, not.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  And not like, yeah. Were you scared when you first started?

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Of course, of course. And I was gonna ask if you, because I, my first illicit sexual experiences were very Craigslist-based.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Craigslist? What were you?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Craigslist, M4M was the place to be if you wanted anonymous sex pre-Grinder.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  What did you type in?

• 19:02Speaker 01

  He was very young.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  There was, remember when Craigslist had a personals section?

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Yes, of course.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  That's where we would all go. You would either find a sublet, or an old couch, or some fucking. And.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  I love this. But what did you, what did you search? Like, how did you, how did you find what you wanted?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  You would just, well, sometimes you would go like, I mean, and this speaks to like, a whole different thing for me, which was like, the racial aspect of it, where I was like, okay, being fetishized. And I was like, I would type in Asian.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  And either it was like, M4M, like, seeking, you know, sub Asian for this thing. And I'd be like, me, me, me, me, me. You know, like, it was in it, like, and I'm, and I'm.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  You were looking for a sub or you were the sub?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  I, like, I was volunteering to be the sub.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Because that was a thing in the culture, right? It was like, he probably knew, you probably knew as someone who was engaging in this idea of you as a sexual being. It's like, you, like, were programmed.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  This is how I fit into this, yes, exactly. And that, and there was, are you familiar with these things? I'm sure, like, just having gay male friends, no fats, no F's, no Asians being this thing. It's like, that was a very, not all, not all that long ago was that like, kind of like, thrown around.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  And it was on everyone's profile.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Did you think that you were a sub? Because that's what you, culturally, you thought you should be?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  And, and did you end up being?

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And I kind of did, yeah. And now I'm like, and now I've actually been very, it's actually been kind of nice. And I'm, I turn myself on if I go, if someone like, calls me like, a little bitch or something. And I'm like, I don't like that.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Hmm, control.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  In a way, I'm like, I'm like, or I'm, and I don't even have to be like, that, like, direct about it. I can just be like, oh, I'm not, I guess, I can just be polite and be like, oh, I'm not into that. Like, I don't, I don't like being called names.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  What are you, I mean, what kind of men are you attracted to?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Matt and I have this thing where I think we both like affection, or like. Like, um, it's like an affection kink.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Wait, what do you mean?

• 21:04Speaker 02

  We like be, we, we, we get turned on by the idea that like, we are having this like incredibly deeply meaningful encounter with someone.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I think I've, I've, I've-

• 21:14Speaker 03

  That's different than affection, though, to me.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  We've, we've described it as, and people had problems with this, rightfully so, I'm curious what you think, but I described it as an intimacy kink.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Intimacy.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Okay, that's a little different to me.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm sorry, yes.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  So like, so like, affection should be there, but I think that I get what you're saying, because it's like, it's, it unlocks something if I feel like someone is my boyfriend or my like husband for a night.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Oh, just for the night? So, okay, I was gonna say, because it's a longer term-

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Or for the interaction.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Or for life, even.

• 21:45Speaker 03

  Right, okay, okay. Well, but that can sometimes have a reverse effect with somebody that you, like, when there's, there, when there is this moment that you think, as you said earlier, that like, things are gonna be gone, like, this person's not gonna be around. There is a freedom in that, and like, like, a complete, like, and that level of anonymity and ability to kind of let it go behind.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I miss it. I miss it. Because then, I, I had to, I kind of, and I'm not even like, famous like you guys, but the thing is, like, the last two times I had like, I'll just say, like, anonymous sex, it was, I found out after that they knew who I was. And that kind of like, kills it.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  Ruins it.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  It kills it, because what I loved about it was that you could go in and be someone else.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Like, I liked, like, for example, for me, I didn't realize I was like, a top, until I got on Grindr. Because suddenly I was going into rooms and I was like, way more dominant. And I was like, who is this person? And I was like, I wanna- What was that?

• 22:46Speaker 03

  That's amazing that it took Grindr to realize.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Well, because it was like, and, and, and it's like, I wasn't doing anything but being in the situation, and what I wanted to say was, go over there. Do this thing.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Oh, that's just gonna turn me on.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  You know what? But like, that's who I essentially was, when I allowed myself sexual freedom and space, which I had never had, because you, as a queer person, as a gay person, feel like you're always being watched. And then that becomes something else when you become a public figure.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. Do you, are you, like, do you feel like you're dominating in other parts of your life, or are you more submissive?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Always.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Really?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Always. I mean-

• 23:25Speaker 02

  He can't turn it off.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  It follows him to the bedroom.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  How do you, what about in your relationship? Are, are you dominant?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  I think he's more dominant than I am now.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  In what way?

• 23:37Speaker 02

  That's interesting. I think we're both little, I think we're both, I'm not as alpha as you. I think you like to alpha.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  I think I alpha as play.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  Okay, so alpha as in a play. You're saying it as an, as a, like, a position in act, or as like-

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I don't think I actually make our decisions. I like deferring to him.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  That takes a lot of trust, but that trust probably comes from time and like, repeated experiences of trusting him.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Trust and also getting over yourself and letting go. Because I have an anxiety issue.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  I bet you don't get over yourself and let go with other people who you don't trust.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  No, I, I let things bother me a lot.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I, but I would imagine, like, if you were with someone who you didn't know, who you didn't trust, like you trust Bowen, that you would not, like, lay down.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I mean, that, I mean, cut to me and the, cut to me on Grindr.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Cut to you on Grindr, but then-

• 24:23Speaker 03

  I cannot imagine.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  And then, and then, how, how does this break down for you, identity-wise?

• 24:28Speaker 03

  I mean, sexually, I switch. I'm a switch hitter, like, which is, thank God, because my partner and I are like, and some, there's always like a, I don't know, there's always that moment where somebody feels vulnerable and someone feels, like, really in charge, and then it can, it can switch. If it's, it doesn't ever switch for you in relationships?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  No, in relationships, well, I haven't really figured out the kind of person I need to be with yet, so I think it's been very erratic, but what do you, like, I don't know.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Same.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  Do you switch, ever?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Oh, sexually, you mean? Yes, I do both.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Well, I think they're kind of both. I, to me, I don't know how to separate them, because I think they go hand in hand. Like, there are moments where like, I'm feeling good about myself, or feeling like in control and things are going well, and like, I can, the dominance in me can be present, but it, it's not, I can't fake it in the bedroom. So if it's not happening outside in the rest of my life, it doesn't happen in the bedroom. And vice versa, if I'm feeling kind of a little bit like, not everything is moving and I'm, or maybe something bad happened, I find, I switch, and then all of a sudden-

• 25:33Speaker 02

  In life, and just in, in life.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  In life, and then it will happen in the bedroom, too. Like, they're very connected. That's why I was wondering if you're able to switch on the outside or inside.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Well, I'm very sensitive to dynamics, and so I think that I let the dynamic kind of dictate what I do. I, I, I think I'm pretty malleable in terms of like, romantic and social dynamics, and then sexually, it kind of follows what's happening there.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, that makes sense.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I'm not that kind of person who's like, I run shit all day, and so when I get home, fuck me to smithereens, I wanna lay here. Like, that's not really it. You know what I mean?

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Although, okay, what do we, I need some insight into this.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Sometimes I do like being a little pillow princessy.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Oh, who doesn't?

• 26:18Speaker 02

  I'm just, I am just like, let me starfish. What's so wrong with that?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Nothing's wrong with that. It's essentially really hot, and sometimes guys want that.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  Nothing wrong.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  People want that.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Some people, some people can't handle it.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  What do you mean? Like, they're like, you gotta move around?

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people don't know what to do. Yeah, some people don't know what to do with it. I mean, I think, I'm not, I'm not, I cannot handle people starfishing sometimes, like, I-

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Why, why, why, why, why?

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Well, because it puts a ton of pressure on, on me. And also, I think, I don't know, I think, I, also, that means I have to be over the top of someone most often, and then my face falls down, and I don't like that.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  It is just a lot of energy to, to, to exert. Also, it's like-

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Wrinkles. What wrinkles?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  It is, it is, there is the thing of like, when you are on your back, like, and the down, that, that does suck.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  I look better when I'm on my back.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah?

• 27:11Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Okay. Wait, why did you bite your finger earlier when you, you responded very viscerally to Matt doing something?

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Because like, there's-

• 27:21Speaker 02

  So then-

• 27:21Speaker 03

  You know what it is?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Go ahead, you didn't-

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Well, I was gonna ask, like, how are you, how, how are you like, arranging that in your own sex life? Like, how are you, how are you doing something like, that you're not supposed to do? With, and, and like, with, with your sexual experiences? But, but go, but go.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  No, wait, I'm not sure I understand your question.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  What makes you bite your finger now?

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Oh, like, well, I think what I was responding to is like, you being like, telling, telling me what to do, or I know you weren't telling me, but there is that, I think,

• 27:50Speaker 03

  there is that crossover moment where like, no, someone doesn't care about what you think and they just tell you what to do, and like, that is, like, I haven't had that in a long time. I do really like it when someone just tells me what to do, because I think, I ended, I think especially because as my life got bigger and my job got bigger, people stopped telling me what to do.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  And I love to be told what to do.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also, it's kind of interesting, because you, I feel like in getting to know your personality more over the past, like, several years, now that you've allowed yourself in, you're, you've allowed the audiences in to sort of get to know your sense of humor, what your life is like, it contrasts with an image that you built, which is very intimidating and very strong.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  It's so weird, because I didn't build that image. I think it was just like the pulled back hair and the glasses, honestly. I think presented something that wasn't, like, I think that stood, it was the title, the, and, and the look, it wasn't anything about my personality.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Well, and how good you are at what you do. And so there's, there's all these things together that I then think places an idea in people's mind, which also allows them to not be totally sexually free with you, which is, this is someone I have to, like, do, be my best around. And that is hard for people sexually.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  You know?

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Well, and then they think that you want to be domineering in all parts of life, and I'm like, no, no, I'm done, I've dominated, I've dominated all day long. Can you just like, take me?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I must be the pillow princess.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Like, I just need somebody to just like, tell me what to do. I don't wanna have to make a decision, and like, and that, I think was hard. Like, I mean, I have luckily dated, not, I mean, women who are good in that department, so thank God.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I must say that I relate to this thing very much, where it's like, the title and the glasses and maybe the Asian-ness for me is something that communicates like, intelligence and/or like, like-

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, that you're not-

• 29:48Speaker 02

  A severe, a severity that I, that I don't have.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Right, like, that you're not, that you're not messy or playful, that you're like, buttoned up in some way, and it's like, I'm deeply not buttoned up. Like, that's just not my personality.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  But you guys can both understand why people might see images of you and feel a certain way. Of course, you can both acknowledge that.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. No, hundred percent. I'm not in any way, at all, like, I get it, and I, it's just amazing to me, and I don't think I realized it until, I mean, I started to realize when people come in, would come into my office for an interview, and they were like, ner, like, so nervous. Shaking, one woman, I had to leave her in my office for like, five minutes, because she could not catch her breath. She was so nervous, and I was like, listen, I'm gonna go and take care of a few things, I'll, I'll be back, I'll let you, you take a breath. And I came back and she, I was like, are you okay? Because I thought she was like, having anxiety attack or something. She's like, I'm just so nervous, like, and I said, I'm sorry, like, you're nervous. I said, why are you so, she's like, well, you're the president of, you know, it was like, these things that she had put in her, and I'm like, babe, like, let's rela, like, let's talk about something else for a minute.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Like, we don't have to talk about work, let's just talk about like, tell me about your family, tell me about your kids, like, let's try to smooth this out here so you can feel a little bit more comfortable. And it had nothing to do with, I mean, nothing to do with me, like, I'm so not. But it is amazing to me, although at the same time, like, I like to use that, which, you know.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't you?

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Like, please.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  But it's just, and it's constantly something that you have to work against. I don't know if I love that, that word usage for myself, but I was like, but like, I feel that way, that like, yes, I understand why that, um, concept comes about, but I'm also like, but why do I have to like, actively fight against that for another person to perceive me in a slightly different way?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't give a shit.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 31:28Speaker 01

  That's probably the key.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I'm, I'm like, I don't, I'm like, I use that to my advantage, and like, honestly, if I can be surprising, and, and I just don't, I'd rather, it's, listen, I think it'd be harder if it was the other way around. If people thought that I was like, just a joke and a mess, or like, and, you know, so easygoing, and yet, I really wanted to present myself as professional and buttoned up, that would be hard.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  I think it's a lot easier to surprise people the other way around.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 31:57Speaker 02

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  This ad is sponsored by Vive Healthcare. Time for some prep wisdom.

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  But first, some common sense, people. Everyone is different. Everyone. Yes, even you. Yes, even your situationship.

• 34:47Speaker 02

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• 34:54Speaker 01

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• 34:58Speaker 02

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• 35:11Speaker 01

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• 35:27Speaker 01

  Hey, Bowen, point of order. It feels like nothing is what it says it is anymore.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Point of answer, it's because everything has a catch.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Hey, or turns out to be something else entirely.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Like a total catfish situation.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, Bo.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Except for hotels.com.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah, that one's pretty literal.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Because it's hotels.com. It's in the domain. You go there, you book hotels, hundreds of thousands of them.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And hold up, that's it?

• 35:49Speaker 02

  That's it. And when stays are booked as a member, rewards are earned every time.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Every stay?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Every stay. No tracking or managing, just rewards that can be used like cash on future bookings.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, already feels nicer than most rewards programs, okay?

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Members can also get up to 20% off bookings, so savings start right away.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Does that mean no weird restrictions?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  And no blackout dates. Book what works when it works. It's actually really fitting of real travel.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  So the name is honest, you're saying, and the rewards are too?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. Hotels.com. It's all in the name.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  The only thing I will say is that people who are funny are the smartest people always. Like, so I don't think you have to fight against them. There is not a single person I met who is genuinely funny who is not brilliant.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is true. Who is the funniest person you know?

• 36:37Speaker 03

  Cass.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Cass, really?

• 36:39Speaker 03

  She's so fucking funny.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  She's really funny. She's like a way of finding, like, and disarmingly funny.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  Have you ever spent any time with her?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Well, I've only met her in passing at the Victoria's Secret show where we sat next to you, which was so fun. Like, to be next to you during that was so cool.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  That was the best. I was so happy that you guys were. That was, that was genuinely one of the...

• 37:02Speaker 01

  That was amazing. And so, in passing?

• 37:04Speaker 03

  In passing, yes. Okay, so, well, we'll fix that.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  But, um, yeah, there's something about the way that she is able to, like, even see some of the darkest moments and turn them into something, like, funny is like, it's a, it's definitely, there's an art to that. It's something I don't really have.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  So you think that what's so attractive about your partner's sense of humor is that you kind of, like, is it was a new sense of humor for you or a different take on things? Or that you felt like that is honing in on something that I have always loved but were able to, not been able to express really that humor?

• 37:39Speaker 03

  I think, like, I've, every single person I've ever been with, my ex-husband and my partner before, everyone has been funny. I don't. My least favorite trait, least favorite trait in a person is being earnest.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Do you think it can...

• 37:56Speaker 03

  I can't stand it.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Okay, so then, so then your ideal version of funny is something that is stripped of earnestness? Or not stripped of it, but...

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Well, just like, you know, like, people who can't, like, who don't have any sense of humor or can't take a joke or find everything is so important. I'm like, I cannot.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Oh, of course.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  It just drives me crazy.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  It ties to something I hate too, which is superiority. Like, oftentimes, when someone has no sense of humor, they think of every single way they can talk about how something is, like, not good enough or actually not what you think it is, or like, how it's actually not smart for you to think about it this way. That, to me, is like...

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Totally. When did you know you were funny?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  I have an answer that's, like, so annoying, but...

• 38:42Speaker 01

  When?

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  There was a girl named Victoria Rosales in the fourth grade. I had just moved to Colorado from Canada, and I was really desperate to make friends. And then this girl was crying at recess. Victoria was crying at recess, and then I took it upon myself to rush over to her and, like, just, like...

• 39:00Speaker 03

  How old were you at this time?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I was, this is fourth grade, so I was like, mm, eight or nine?

• 39:03Speaker 03

  Ten?

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Nine or 10? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I was just hamming it up around her.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  And then, like, she stopped crying and she started to laugh.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  You had a function.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  I had a function. And you, so, yeah, and so this is, this ties it together with, like, you know, what humor can do and how it can make people feel. But, um, she was like, "Oh my god, Bowen, you're so funny, and thank you, you made me feel better."

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Then why did you want to be a doctor?

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Huh?

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Why'd you want to be a doctor?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Uh, 'cause it was like the risk averse thing that, like, was on the rails and guaranteed some kind of, if I was, there was a developmental path to, like, success. And, you know, you were just being vetted at every single level to move on to the next stage.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  How did your parents feel about you being a comedian?

• 39:45Speaker 02

  They, you know what? To their credit, it was not like the classic Asian immigrant thing of like, "No, how dare you!" But it was just me taking my amcap for the second time at One Penn Plaza, getting to the written portion, flashing to a Steve Carell interview where he said that he had applied to law school when things weren't working out for him in Chicago, after he took Second City classes and did Second City stage stuff. And in the middle of his personal, um, statement for his law school application, he was like, "I can't do this. I need, I'm gonna give this showbiz thing a shot." And then I had that same exact thought in that moment. And then I went over to the proctor, voided my score, took the elevator down, called my parents. I was like, "I'm not gonna go to med school.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  I'm gonna find some temp jobs, and I'm gonna pay my own rent as much as I can." And they did help me a little bit, 'cause I would struggle certain months.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Just to be totally transparent, but I was like, "I'm gonna just take classes at UCB and just, like, make it work."

• 40:41Speaker 03

  It's amazing. When you started talking about that, your voice changed.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  And your demeanor changed.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Well, 'cause my voice is fried from eight shows a week.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  He does that. See what he just did?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Wait, what did what?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  What, what?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  It can, it can, it always, always, always goes to like, "Oh, well, no, it's this thing you noticed about me is actually not..."

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Isn't that earnestness, though? Isn't that what we're allergic to?

• 41:01Speaker 03

  No, I'm not allergic. No. Your voice got lower and you got seri-, it wasn't earnest, it was serious. Like, it was like a different person took over. It was, like, interesting. I watched your...

• 41:11Speaker 02

  I was, you know, I was spitting a yarn.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Your body language completely changed.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Wow, Jenna Lyons, nothing gets past you.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  It was sweet. Can I tell you, it's funny, because sometimes he sees the special things about him so much, so far after everyone else. And like, that, like, whatever, you make your fucking face if you want. But I remember, like, after he did all this shit, I remember he came and met up with me at lunch at Vapiano on University and 12th. And I was like, and I was like, "Do you want to be in our sketch comedy group?" And he was like, "Really?" And I was like, "Yeah." And then we put him in our sketch comedy group because all my friends adored him and wanted to get to know him, and we had been friends at school. I was like, "I think Bowen would join if we asked." And then he, you know...

• 41:55Speaker 03

  And then he did.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  What is, what happens in a sketch comedy group?

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Oh my god, I love this, that we can explain sketch comedy to Jenna Lyons. Okay, yeah, what happens?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Well, what happens is...

• 42:05Speaker 02

  You meet up?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  You meet up in a group, and everyone's written a sketch, and then basically, it's like, you know, that's like, uh, you know... A slice of life scene of an idea that people come in. Hopefully it's funny, it's three pages long and you.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  You read it.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  You read it and you cast it and you punch it up and you figure out how to make it like the sharpest version of what it is and we would rehearse it and stage it. We would have two meetings a week and then we would have one show a month at the People's Improv Theater on 28th and Lex.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  Or whatever bar base they would have us.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Isn't that what you did at SNL? I watched the documentary about SNL and how this like skits, I mean it seemed absolutely terrifying and honestly like one of the most emotionally painful things anyone could ever do, but it, that sounds really fun.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I mean, it was fun. Back in the day, like when we were, I think we were all doing our survival jobs and then we took it really seriously. We meet up twice a week and like for three hours at a time and we would all just like pass our ideas back together. We knew a bunch of talented people from school and we tried to, you know, just in like an independent way.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Was there anyone else in your group who like got famous?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Um, let's see, there was Sudhi Green, who is now, who.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Big writer.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Big writer, she was, you know, she was the reason I like survived and thrived at SNL in the beginning.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  I went to, I was in the same group as Stephanie Schuh, who was an Oscar nominee for everything ever all at once, was just in Rocky Hard. Jack Quaid was in my sketch group, yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  The people who founded our groups, his sketch group and my improv group were, they were called Derek Comedy, it was DC Pearson, Dominic Dickerson, Donald Glover.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Donald Glover.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  And so it was like, it was just like.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Rachel Bloom.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Rachel Bloom was in the group.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Damn.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  It all, you know.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  It was, and then, and then even after that, like there were more people that came through, but it was, that's, that's how sketch comedy happened for us.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  But I, you asked an interesting question, which was like, when did you know you were funny? For me, it wasn't ever that, it was that I could hold people's attention, I noticed when I was young and I feel like.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  And you didn't equate that to being funny?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  No, I think, I think I knew how to tell a story and that people watched. Like I remember one time, like I was obsessed with, when I was a kid, and then right after this, we'll ask you, it'll dovetail into the culture question, but I was obsessed with reading biographies of people. Like I'd write a biograph, I'd read a biography of Florence Nightingale and then I would go home and I would tell my parents everything that happened in Florence Nightingale's life, but from my like six-year-old perspective.

• 44:25Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  And they would laugh and they'd be like, what the fuck? And I was just like, oh, this is fun, like telling stories about other people, but it's not so serious and I'm not getting it all right.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Right, doesn't matter.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  But it's fun and it's like a thing. And so I would go and I would read all about people and my parents would have their friends over and I'd be like, you guys have to hear about the Wright Brothers. And I was like, this is what happened. And I just would like go and my parents would eventually be like, you gotta get out of here, like, but I was addicted to the feeling I got of regaling.

• 44:56Speaker 03

  I love that. You need to do drunk history.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I know, they, they need to bring that show back.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  You guys, you guys could bring it, I loved it.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  We would be great Wright Brothers.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  You would be fucking brilliant.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  We would.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  I would die.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  But no, similar to that, but also different, we ask the question on this podcast every single time and this is gonna be no different. Jenna Lyons, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you? Formative culture in your life that made you JFL?

• 45:25Speaker 03

  I would say, um, I moved to New York when in, like I was, 1987 and I came from a small town in California called Palos Verdes and lived in a very sheltered area.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Melissa, my bestie is from Palos Verdes. Your pee pee homie.

• 45:41Speaker 03

  And, um, and my mom's a piano teacher and she was autistic and so like I had like a kind of quiet, very isolated life and I moved to New York and the first person I met was this guy named John Dunn, who was gay. And he took me to see Paris is Burning, he took me to drag shows, he took me to the pier to watch boys fuck on the pier. He took me to like, he told me who Anna Wintor was, I was in fashion school, I didn't know who Anna Wintor was, like we would read WWD together, like I learned about, like I learned about having a point of view, I learned about like, I was quiet, I never, I never said what my opinion was, but I, it totally changed, like I was scared of sex, I was scared, I

• 46:22Speaker 03

  was scared of everything, I didn't think, I didn't know who I was and he just, like that whole world and the culture of like gay culture, like just changed everything for me. I found, I fell in love with like flamboyance and, and, and like a spirit of like being unapologetic. I'd never really experienced that and I found, like I just, I loved it, so that really changed everything for me.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  This is the first time we've had the answer be a friend.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  Well, this person was a gateway to me, you know, he was the unlock to a world that I didn't feel I was welcome, not, not that anyone had made me not feel welcome, but I just didn't know I was welcome. He made me feel beautiful, no man had ever made me feel beautiful and he like told me I had great tits and I was like, what? No guy had ever told me, you have no idea, they're really good, you guys, I'll show them too later.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  I felt your nipples when I was lifting you up earlier.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  But like, I'd never been, you know, he, I never felt beautiful from men, like I grew up in California and everyone was blonde hair, blue eyes, Baywatch, you know, Pamela Anderson and I was not that and it was the first time, like there was just like a certain amount of like playfulness and joy and irreverence and not giving a fuck and just like, I, I loved it and it was, um, yeah, it was like huge unlock for me.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  And like real perspective in seeing something as incredibly striking and beautiful in a different way.

• 47:46Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, I remember like I had, there's this book called Antonio's Girls, which is about this, by this illustrator, Antonio Lopez, who had a pretty profound effect on my like desire to be in fashion and, you know, Antonio Lopez's girls were Jerry Hall and Tina Chow and Marissa Berenson and Grace Jones, who I found completely, you know, beautiful and I was enamored by them, but they could not have been more different and they certainly did not fit into the mold of what I had seen on TV as beautiful, you know, like the only girls that were beautiful were like the Julia Roberts in the pen and it's like traditional pretty girls and here you have Grace Jones and Tina Chow and Marissa Berenson and, you know, Jerry Hall and they were all so different and that was, I was

• 48:30Speaker 03

  like, oh, there's so much more to life than this kind of prefab look of California and beach culture and blonde hair, blue eyes, big boobs, like I was so excited about that.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Like it wasn't just aesthetic, but it was also theatrical and very New York.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  It was and it was, and it was, what I think was interesting about the aesthetic was the aesthetic was, what made them interesting was the fact that they were different.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  Not the fact that they looked like everybody else, which is what I had been sort of broomed to think was the right thing. I needed to look like everyone else, I needed to fit in, I needed to act a certain way, be a certain way and then all of a sudden I was like, wait, I don't have to.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was fun.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  That's amazing, that's deeply profound in the sense that like you can trace all of these things about queer life that like endures, like we're still having anonymous sex, like, you know, like, so just because, because I think, because of course, like you going to the pier is, which is like the sort of origin point of like this.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  Open door.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Open door.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  It is the beginning, I mean, I remember the very first time, we took boxed wine and we went and we sat on the pier at 14th Street, which is obviously totally different now and we literally watched boys just hook up. And I mean, I was, I couldn't believe this was happening. I couldn't believe we could just sit there and watch, I couldn't believe no one was breaking it up, I couldn't believe, like they were just fucking and then someone would walk over and they would shake hands and then all three of them were fucking at the same time and I was like, this is.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  In 1987?

• 49:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, 1987.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Just to speak on that, I, I noticed you used the past tense when speaking of him, is he still with us?

• 50:04Speaker 03

  He's, yeah, we just, he's, he's, he's around, I mean, I haven't seen him, he moved to Puerto Rico, he like started a whole new life and like, you know, he's.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  There was a second never, there was a second never, we were like, and?

• 50:14Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, no, no.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And how are we commemorating him now?

• 50:18Speaker 03

  No, we haven't seen each other in a very long time, but yeah, he definitely changed my life, like totally and in a very positive way. And also like in a way that it was scary too.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  But.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  It's like, it's what we were talking about earlier, the fear is what's truly allowing you to meet yourself.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Because then you, not only are you like, you're now living in a world where you know what these things are, you've seen these things, you have terminology for these things and in that you meet yourself, but then comes the task of creating who you are.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, the fact that you said that you didn't have sex with your boyfriend for three years, you said?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Well, we, we had sex a couple times in a two and a half year relationship.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Okay, but, but so think, to think about that, like, and then you started to figure out who you were after that, like I, I could say the same, like I moved from California, had no idea who I was, I didn't know what I thought, I didn't know what my perspective was, I didn't, so it took me, you know, first then I had to sort of figure out life through his eyes and what this world of culture that I was so fascinated by, but then I had to put together like, well, where's me in all of this?

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  It takes such a long time and I think, you know, I'm glad I experienced it, but I couldn't believe, you know, I look at my son now and he's so himself, like his, our kids, we have, you know, between Cass and I, we have three, she has two stepchildren and like they are so clear about what is important to them and who they are and they're so far ahead of the game in that way, I, I didn't know who I wanted to be or who I was really gonna be until I was like 27 and even that, I still had stuff, I mean, I didn't come out until I was 43, so there's that.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  So clearly I'd missed a few things.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Not really though.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like how do you feel about like the latency between like figuring yourself out, because I mean, someone even say that like the kids are all gonna like very malleably have different identities like 10, 15 years from now too, you know what I mean? Like they'll, they'll look back on this time in their lives and be like, I had no idea who I was in high school or college.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Right, there is that.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  I think the difference is they're more confident in saying that and being open to it and discerning that, like, like the way that, you know, I, when we have conversations with them about, like they don't feel the need to put a stake in the ground, they know there are parts of them that are unformed and they know the parts of them that they feel clear about and they're, I mean, I've never seen anything like, it's the weirdest fucking thing. To talk to a kid who's like 16 years old and is so clear about, you know, what, what they think is real and what they don't and you, I mean, I just like, I had no idea, I mean, I was literally an actual idiot when I was 16.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  No, no, no, but like, I mean, when John is like showing you all of these, is opening all of these doors for you or just culturally like. Especially as it relates to queerness or being gay, like, how much are you thinking about, like, could this be me? Like, does this apply to me as a woman?

• 53:03Speaker 03

  I think, so the difference is, and it's hard to explain this to people who didn't live through that time, because it feels, but back then, there were no gay women.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  There were a few, but it was like, they were what's classified as like a bull dyke. Like, just really, and I didn't look at that and be like, oh, I-

• 53:22Speaker 01

  My community.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Right. I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't necessarily attracted to it. I wasn't, I didn't, it didn't look like anything that I, I mean, I still like, love wearing heels and lipstick and all those things, and I didn't, so I didn't find that as my space, but what I did find was this culture of gay men who made me feel loved and appreciated and sometimes hated, but that was okay, because it was honest, and it was-

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Copy that. That's really interesting.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  It was like, there was no bullshit. It was like, you know, if I was wearing ugly shoes, they would tell me if they loved my look, they would tell me if they hated my hair, they would tell me if they thought my boobs, they were, it was like every, and so I got all this feedback information that was totally honest, and I had never had that before, and I was like, this is the best.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Do you think that they, and from your perspective, were they treating each other like that? And so the fact that they treated you like that made it feel inclusive? Or were, did you feel that as a woman, you were being treated differently, but you didn't really know how to like, articulate the ways in which it still felt like a little bit of like a sexist thing?

• 54:29Speaker 03

  Well, from the gay men, I don't know if I even, I don't, I being, I experienced straight men being so awful-

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  That, that, having a gay man pay attention to you is like, I mean, it was such a different thing. I mean, granted, like, I'm, I know all the terminology about the girls that are hanging on, I know all about that, and I didn't care.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 03

  And I like, you know, they were-

• 54:57Speaker 02

  You can say it if you want.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's not, I mean, I can't remember, what's the-

• 55:01Speaker 01

  What, fag hack?

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Fag hack, thank you.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Yes, thank you.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  You're allowed to say-

• 55:04Speaker 01

  We celebrate it.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  It's been a while, I couldn't remember that, no one's called me a fag hack in a very long time.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  When you said the terminology of the girls that hang on-

• 55:15Speaker 01

  The terminology of the girls that hang on. That's actually a really good description.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  What rule of culture is that? Rule of culture number 55.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  55.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Fag hack. The terminology of the girls that hang on.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Which, we don't feel that way, by the way.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Fag hags are an incredible, and we'd be dead without the fag hags.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Well, and I, and I, granted, like, I know, and we know.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  But also, like, there was, there were some that would never go out and then like, actually separate from the men and have a boyfriend.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 55:44Speaker 03

  Or so like, so I wasn't, I didn't actually fit into that category, but there were some that I knew that did. Like, they would only hang out with the gay boys, and they never ventured out to find anyone for themselves.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  And I think that was where the terminology got a little bit sticky, but-

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  But, anyway, I mean, I, listen, I, I cannot express how deeply like, warm and like welcoming it was to be, like, they were showering you with, like, they wanted me to come out with them all the time. They were constantly telling me, they were taking me shopping, they would tell me I looked beautiful, they'd tell me I didn't look beautiful, they would, you know, they would tell me what the newest lipstick was, they knew everything, they would, you know, I remember like, watching Paris is Burning with all of them, and they were like, you know, that line when she was walking down the extravagance, and you're like, you're rich, you own everything. You know, executive realness, like, no one knows where executive realness came from, it came from Paris is Burning.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  From the ballroom, yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  There is like, there is a, a part of my, like, experience in, in New York that is rooted in being close to that culture when it was happening in the moment, and like, I feel really like grateful for that, because it was incredible. It was before Giuliani cleaned the city up, and there were gay clubs and sex clubs and all kinds of-

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Bathhouses.

• 56:53Speaker 03

  It was, it was the raunchy part of New York that I loved.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 03

  I don't know, I just, I grew up in like, literally like, a bleached community.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Right, well, I mean, the thing about pre-Giuliani New York is that like, it's, and we, I say this all the time, it's like the Times Square red and blue thing, it's like, you, you, you had cross-class interactions in all of these spaces, which every healthy city needs.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  And, well, I, but I do want to go back to the men, like, being direct with you. Did that rip off on you in the way, in the sense that like, I think people would consider you to be a direct person?

• 57:26Speaker 03

  Yes, but it took a while, and I think also I went too far. Like, I remember when I was younger, I was, I remember going home to California and seeing with my friends and being like, a little bit like, girl, that, you've got to change that, that's ugly.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  And they were like-

• 57:39Speaker 01

  We don't know who this person is.

• 57:41Speaker 03

  I was, I went a little too far, and I found myself being, or being too snarky, or like, making fun of somebody's outfit, and like, them not handling it well, and I'm like, okay, sorry. Like, I didn't, I definitely didn't-

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:53Speaker 03

  I had to calibrate.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  There's an adjustment period to the self.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I think, it's like, um, we were talking the other day about how like, for a while there in culture, it was like, critique culture became really popular, like, Simon Cowell on American Idol being like, you're a bad singer, you look terrible, you will never have a career. When that is the number one show in the world-

• 58:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  It does affect the way that people communicate. Like, I remember being in high school, and the girls had seen Mean Girls, and they started talking to each other like Regina George, and I'm like, I don't think you picked up the right thing from this, though I understand seeing this cruelty being stylish and wanting to-

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Funny, yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  And funny and effective.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  And so, when that is something that is an influence on you, you do have to calibrate it.

• 58:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think like, there's, you know, Michael Kors, you know, there was a lot of that kind of snarkiness. But the funny thing is, it's easier for men.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Of course it is.

• 58:50Speaker 03

  Definitely easier for gay men, because it's like a shtick, whereas when a girl does it-

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  And so I, I got myself into a little trouble, for sure. Like, I think people felt like I was being snarky and mean, and I was, and I enjoyed it, and then I was like, oh, this is maybe too mean.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  But, there's a healthy dose of it.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  I agree, and the thing is, what was, the difference was, there was honesty behind it, like-

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  Most of the time, like, a lot of the boys, when they were safe, like, what I loved about it was they would, they were honest, they would say, you don't look great, go back and change, and I'm like, I'd whip myself around and I'd turn around and change, and like, I want that.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  You can take a note.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Because a boyfriend can't tell you to go back to your room and change, and your girlfriend, if they do, then you're in competition and you think she's a cunt. Like, you know, like, there's something about that relationship of that, and, but it's hard then to try that on when it's not, you're not a gay man.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Would you ever tell me I looked bad?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Have you?

• 59:45Speaker 02

  I've, I've like, maybe like, given you guff or just like, made fun of you for wearing, but I would never be like, you, that's interesting.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  See, but that's, but what you're saying is valuable.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  I would tell you in a heartbeat.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  I know you would.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  No.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  What do you think about what I'm wearing?

• 59:57Speaker 03

  You look great.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 59:59Speaker 03

  I love, and I love that you're being so preppy, and like, your polo, like, loafers, you're just the cutest.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Thank you. Wait, you, you, you sent me a link to something, and you said you need this.

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  Oh, Husband's Paris, you need to get a custom-made suit.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  I would love it. Wait, but-

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  I've been trying not to send you things because I know you're, well, because I know you're like, in the middle of like-

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  I don't care.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  No, please, we want to hear from you.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  Okay, and Jenna did-

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  But I'll take you.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  I will take you.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  You know what Jenna Lyons dawned me into doing, and I will never change this, she was like, here's my number, put me, pin me.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  Pin me now.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Pin me now.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  She has her own row.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Folks, she's her own, Jenna fucking Lyons has her own row and my pinned, and come on.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  Do you know how much?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Obsessed.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Hold on, I gotta hold mine up at the same time.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Obsessed.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Jenna Lyons right there.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Y'all are, y'all are pinned.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  We're pinned.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Oh my god, title of that pinned.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  Do you know that my stepdaughter saw that, and she was like, do you have Bowen Yang pins in your phone?

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Wait, you know what's funny? You, it's funny to hear you say like, executive realness, and then I realized that's kind of what you're walking for like, a long time. You're kind of walking executive realness.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  Thanks, babe.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Do you love that?

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  Of course, I love it.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Speaker 03

  Of course, I mean, I think that is the, like, part of my personality that I, I think everyone thinks that you have to be truly like a cunt and just a bitch to be an executive, and I just think that's not true, and I-

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  It's part of my favorite thing, is like, I get to play that role and have, have done it, but still do it to this day, and I'm like, I'm, you know, on the board of a public company, and I enjoy doing that, and it's a totally different thing than the rest of my life, but that's okay.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  You're living the reality of it, and I, I guess this dovetails into, into the conversation about you on TV, which is like, I feel like stylish is like one thing, and then like, rony is another word, it's like, people might have had the expectation that you would show up on that show and be like, Jenna fucking Lyons, which you were, but like, but to like, be able to like-

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  I, I struggled, that was the hardest thing I've ever done.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  But I'm sure you, you had the expectation maybe within you, or other people did, and maybe that's where it kind of starts to, to break down, where it's like, you know you can be direct, and you know you can be like, you can, you can be like, yourself, and you can assert yourself in those situations, the classic housewife situations, and yet, it doesn't totally work because the people you were with maybe like, just had their own weird reservations about like, who you were.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Well, why was it difficult for you?

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  I mean, it was a clusterfuck, honestly. I think, first of all, there's, I mean, it's a kind, it's a lot to unravel, but the first season, I think, was such a, it was so hard, and the reason it was so hard was somewhat of what you're saying. I think they all had really different perceptions of who I was, and I think they all made assumptions that I was being treated differently, that the network was treating me differently, all the, which, none of which was true.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  But they made assumptions that then put ideas into their head about the way that they should actually sort of siphon me, they, they kind of treated me differently. And then one of the girls decided to make up a story that was just flat out not true. Basically about the fact that I had, like, petitioned Andy to get on the show and had a business plan that I presented to him, which is just, it's just not true.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  It's absurd.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  But she was quite convincing and got them sort of rallied behind, so I found myself really-

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Alienated.

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  Alienated, and I think the other issue that I didn't realize at the time, which I realized when we went into the second season, was like- When you are the only gay person and you are the one who's, I was much older than them. Like, there's just this natural divide. And so like, all the conversations that they were having about boys and sex and I just couldn't. I didn't, I was like, I'm like, you know, one of them was trying to have a baby and I'm like, I just wasn't in the same place. And I think they also were all in this place where they were trying to make their careers and trying to become famous. And I'd already sort of done that and I wasn't looking, that wasn't, and I knew what it was. Like, there's no, it's, you know, this, I, there's, I watched them as they started to get more famous and, and

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  notorious is a little bit maybe a better word. And I think, you know, started reading the comments and getting people and listening to everyone's feedback about them. And you're like, you start to see like, that world is a house of cards. Like, your friends are your friends. Those people that you think that love you because of your title or who you are or what position you hold or the fact that you're on a show, they are not really your friends and you will find out the hard way. And so I didn't have that same connection to fame that they did. So it was just, I felt really isolated. And I didn't, and I didn't know how to fight on TV. Like, I just didn't know how to do it.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  It's not the same as it is like in a professional setting.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Well, the other problem was in a professional setting, I was the boss. So no one.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  I was like. What, what?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Your problem is.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  I'm sorry?

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  We're doing this? Thanks.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Honestly, yeah.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  It just wasn't, like, it was a totally different dynamic. I floundered. And then the second season was better because there was Raquel who was gay and there was, and she was more my age and it was, it was better, but I did not fit in. I mean, I felt like a, literally like a fish out of water. And not because I'm, you know, some people think, oh, you think you're better. I'm like, no. Honestly, those women are like, I am so like completely, I mean, also people want something different. Like, have you seen the season this, have you seen any of it this season?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  We're watching it and we're actually really enjoying it.

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  I mean, yes, you're actually really enjoying it. I think it's better. That girl who's high all the time.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Hailey Glassman, yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 03

  You need that person who's just like literally out to lunch. Like, that is funny. It's funny.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  It is, it is.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  That's not me. I couldn't do it.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Here's the thing I think about you on that show. You actually made it something people wanted to watch. You were the draw. And so in that, in that regard, no, you were, because they're, they're ultimately, it, this is a time where no one was checking for Rony. You came on the show. It kind of felt like, wow, they're really, really finding people who are dynamic New Yorkers. Let's see. And then I do agree with you that like, it felt like a bunch of different people put together. Now that they actually have some semblance of a real dynamic and they're bringing in other people that, yes, bring that humor and that kind of quality of Rony that we can recognize with it, it feels like it's a little bit more gelled.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  But I do think that it exists because you did two seasons on it.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Thank you. Well, I do think like that, I think the thing you said too, it's like, there's, you need the humor to not be mean. I think what happened our season, like, it was just mean. And I was like, girl, what?

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Well, it got ugly and it got exceedingly dark.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Well, you didn't even see what, I mean, like, you can imagine, as you know, with anything like that, we filmed a lot more that you did not see. What it got, it was, I mean, we flew home from our final trip separately from one of the girls because it got so dark and they were like, we don't even want to be on the same plane. It was just, and that, like, what are we, like, what am I doing? What am I doing here? Like, this is just not.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  My, I, yeah, anyway, so it was, I'm, I'm so glad I did it and I'm grateful doing a part of it. And I love the girls. I still like.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  And you do watch it. Ish.

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  I'm, I, I will, yes, I'm gonna watch. I mean, I.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  I, I love this. I'm so.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  You watch enough. You are aware of who Hailey Glassman is and that she's a breakout star. That feels like, yeah, that's the headline.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  I still also, because I'm on my Instagram is like, besides animal rescue, it's a lot of the house rescue, because it was from.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Well, yes.

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  And so I see all the little clips going around. I see people reacting. I think what's more interesting is the way the fans are reacting. They're like, this is what I want from the show, blah, blah. And I'm like, yes, like, I want this show to be sex. I want them to be successful. I want the girls to have tons of success and I'm, I want, I have like, but I just, I want to do it from my living room.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

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• 1:08:02Speaker 03

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• 1:11:37Speaker 03

  Would you ever do it?

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  I am gonna say no, because I think the thing that I struggled with most at SNL was the meta narrative. And I think that's all reality is, right?

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  It's like how.

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  And not something you can control.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  It's not something you can control in the same way, but it's like, yeah, like I would go, I, I loved clocking in every single day. But then when there would be news cycles about like what a host would do or like what like the discourse would be because of someone made like an off color joke or because, you know, there was some behavior or whatever, like off camera, it's like, that was the thing that I struggled with the most. It's like, I don't want to be asked how Elon Musk was as a host. You know, it's like, I like, that was what I was struggling with. And I was like, which makes me think, to extrapolate, like, I don't think I would, I could bear being on a reality show.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  The surroundings of it, like, because the entire ecosystem of it is something you have to take into account. Not just, not just, wouldn't it be fun to be on The Traitors? Because it would. And like, you know.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  Well, that's different.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, would you ever do that?

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would totally do Traitors.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Oh, you should.

• 1:12:46Speaker 03

  I love that show. I think it's great. And I'm very excited to watch the one that's coming up now. That's, I'm like so.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Do you have any, do you know anyone?

• 1:12:52Speaker 03

  Well, I want to say, I, well, you know, I'm obsessed with Jerry Hall. So like, she's on the British one, which I'm very.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Oh, she's on the British one?

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  The British one people are loving and I really, we don't, we won't get until after.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  I know, I know. But well, I think you can, yeah, I, I really want, I really, yeah, I would.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Oh, you should totally do it.

• 1:13:08Speaker 03

  I would love to do it.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm, I think the show's actually brilliant.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  Would you guys do it?

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  At this point, I'm just, I will say yes. I, I'm just.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  Wait, can we do the same season?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then you know, we're all gonna get in trouble for like, because here's the thing, like, if, like, I would, I would do The Traitors because it's fun and a game, but the thing is, it still does have that same ecosystem around it. I don't think it's as lasting and scrutinizing, but like, it does.

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  I, I had to decline last year because I was working on something else. So if I'm available, I would love to do it.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Okay, good. No, you're putting yourself out here.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Well, but, but the question is, people ask us, would you do it together? And I think if we were to do it together, they would pick us off immediately.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Or they would put us in a horrible situation, like one of us is a traitor.

• 1:13:54Speaker 03

  I just don't want to be buried alive. Like, that's just a hard no for me.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  It wasn't that tough.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  That's, that was just like, that, I can't, that's not, that's the only thing I'd be like.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  I'm not good at like, I don't think I could look you in the eyes and be like, I'm a faithful, if I was a traitor. Like, you would have to go right away. You know what I mean?

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  Okay, uh, let's, let's do this. Um, we're all, we're all traitors, but then, but let's pretend the other two people are faithful and that we have to convince them.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  And we're all traitors right now.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  We're all traitors, but we're also all faithful. Does that make sense? Okay, I'm, I'm gonna look at Jenna and I'm gonna say I'm a faithful.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  So where is this happening in the grand scheme? Did we just come out of the room where the traitors have been?

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, we, no, we just came, so this is the scenario.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  It's just been a round table. We all vehemently, vituperatively went after a faithful.

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  I love that you just used that word.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  And then, and they, and they were just found, and we're crestfallen because they were actually faithful and we failed.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  And we don't know that each other are traitors?

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  No, I'm saying, these are gonna be three isolated sort of timelines.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  That I'm, so like, let's say in this example, I'm, I'm a traitor.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  And you guys are faithfulls.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Alright, okay, okay, okay.

• 1:15:03Speaker 02

  This is, this is already gonna fail.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  So a faithful just went home and we're talking about it. Wow.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  I can't believe Todrick wasn't a...

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Todrick?

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Todrick Hall wasn't a traitor.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  Honestly, you guys, I suspected him.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  You guys, look at me, I'm a faithful.

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  No, I'm same, but I think...

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  No, that's already, okay, it's done. It's done, okay, okay, now, okay, now, now, now...

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  The way you see, "I'm a faithful."

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Who the fuck was that? Okay, okay, now it's Matt's turn to be, Matt's turn to be, and then, and you name the scenario. What's the scenario?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  The scenario is, um, the scenario is, we're coming back, we're in the car.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  We're coming back from the challenge.

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Wow, I can't believe we were in the lock for...

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  It's Meghan Markle.

• 1:15:50Speaker 03

  Wait, do you really think so?

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  She's a traitor. Why would she be on this show if she wasn't a traitor?

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  Cause she's, she's addicted to attention?

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  But she's a princess. I mean, don't you think she just wants to like, yeah, she just wants to be on a show?

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  She wants to be on a show. I feel like she's a traitor, you guys. I really do.

• 1:16:06Speaker 03

  No, I can't.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  She's a...

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  But you, you can't because...

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  You're a traitor.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Matt.

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  I, no, honestly, like...

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  Matt, Matt.

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  I don't know why you would think that. Like, I'm one of the most...

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  I just feel like, you, I just feel like if I'm casting, see, that's, this is, wait, reality break. This is the thing about it too, I can't go in there and, and not be thinking like a producer, like, well, I know they picked three, these three people. Because I'll tell you what, if Phaedra Parks is on the, is on the cast list.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  You better be making...

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  She's a traitor!

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  Why?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Right away, because they're not gonna not pick Phaedra!

• 1:16:40Speaker 03

  But that's not true, then they might do exactly that because of what you just said, is that people are going to expect, that's the whole, like, that's the entire point.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm just saying, I knew, I knew, I knew when the show started, and I, I, I find this often, like, and obviously this is because they're leaning on it in the editing.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  But I was like, oh, they're gonna pick Joe and Tamika.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Sure, okay, but back, we're back in the car.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Okay, we're back.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  We're back in the car. Okay, we're back in the car.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  I just wanna test out Matt's conviction with this, okay?

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  But Matt, like, you're, you're a faithful.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  You thought no?

• 1:17:13Speaker 03

  No, definitely no.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  I think I could do it. I've, I've won like amateur games of traitors. I've won.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, okay.

• 1:17:23Speaker 03

  It's the eyebrows.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  They do do too much.

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  They really put out, they just put out, you know?

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  I know, you have to imagine me like putting every, I just did another self-tape, and they go, "Just tell Matt he has to do nothing."

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  I, I probably get that note all the time.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Like literally, cause my...

• 1:17:38Speaker 03

  What's a self-tape?

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Like, like, you, bless you, it's when you put yourself on tape for an audition because they no longer do that in person.

• 1:17:46Speaker 03

  What are you auditioning for?

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  I'll tell you after, but I, cause I think it could be a thing, but um, you really, when you have a face that absolutely hops all over the place, you can't do anything. Like, I watched...

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  But even when you just said that, you looked so sinister.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  So, the social reckoning we just saw, Billy Magnuson plays this part that I auditioned for, and I thought I did a great tape for it, didn't get it, Billy Magnuson got it, obviously, and I'm watching him in the scene that I read for the audition, and he's literally not doing anything.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  You have to do it, you have to do it.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  You are good when you do nothing.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  So, when I do it, I get really good feedback.

• 1:18:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's good, you have a good resting bitch face.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 1:18:24Speaker 03

  Yep, and you can find it pretty quickly.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  I mean, that's the thing, is like, I can act, it's just that me as a person is too much.

• 1:18:32Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  So whenever I feel like I'm act, I feel like I go on tape, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  I, I totally.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Like, it's like, it's like you wanna feel like you're giving it energy, but then when you do it, reads on camera like you're a crazy person.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  No, I, believe me, I've done like a few, like, I was on Girls.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  You were great on Girls!

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Those were iconic episodes.

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  Thank you, but the, the amount of things that are on the cutting room floor from that, I, Lena kept saying, less, like...

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Just be.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  I totally get, like, I just couldn't, I thought I had to...

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  Act, I didn't know what acting was, and I still don't, but I like...

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Acting is literally existing in the most stillness you can possibly find where...

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Film acting.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Whereas performing is so different.

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  Did you see Sterling Point? Have you watched that?

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  Yes, I love Sterling Point.

• 1:19:12Speaker 03

  I loved it, but I have to say, like, Ella Rubin was so great and so good at like holding, and then that girl Bo, I'm obsessed with her.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  I met the two of them, they were so cute.

• 1:19:21Speaker 03

  Oh my god, I met, cast shot Ella and she was at our house for the shooting, and she's the sweetest, like, most beautiful, like, angel.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Oh wait, that house is your house? No!

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  No, no, no, I don't think it's come out yet, the one that she did.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, got it, got it, got it, got it, um, I wanna buy a house in Muskoka.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  For the fall.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  For the fall.

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  You, you don't.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:19:40Speaker 03

  It's so hard to get to.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  Well, I, what, the...

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  But you're Canadian.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  Ontario is gonna be protected from climate disaster.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  That's why.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  That's true, that's true.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  That's why.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  That's true. Are you friends with Emily Hampshire?

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  No, I, I've met her a few times, she's lovely.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  I have, I have yet to meet her, everyone raves about Emily.

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  She's great, but she's Canadian, so she's, you know?

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yes, Shits Creek legend.

• 1:19:58Speaker 03

  Yes, legend.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  I'm dual, baby, I got, I got an out.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  He's a doula.

• 1:20:01Speaker 03

  Same, well, my out is England.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  But it's fine, I'll just go there, I don't care, I mean, I don't know what the...

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  You love London, don't you?

• 1:20:07Speaker 03

  I, no.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  No, oh, you're, cause you fucking love New York. Why would you go there? Why would you go to be New York?

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  I love New York.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Nothing beats New York.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  I love, nothing really beats New York, I don't, it's true. I don't know, where would you wanna be if you, like, where's your fantasy to retire?

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Honestly, probably somewhere in New York, like something like, sort of upstate, or in, like, the North Fork.

• 1:20:28Speaker 03

  Okay, North Fork, where's your retire, Muskoka?

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Muskoka.

• 1:20:31Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  I've never been.

• 1:20:32Speaker 03

  Oh, you've never been?

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  But we'll end up going there because that's what he wants.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  If it's good enough at Martin Shore, it's good enough for me.

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  It's just a little isolating, cause you have to be, like, there's no, it's hard to hang out.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Two hours from Toronto, I can go into town.

• 1:20:44Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Honestly, a two hour drive, not bad.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  I don't like upstate because it's spooky.

• 1:20:50Speaker 03

  No, I had a house upstate and I was like, I couldn't get anybody to play out my goddamn driveway, like, I... It was a nightmare, actually, being up there as a single, I went, I did, I had it when I was single, and not...

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  Tough, right, no.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Interesting, you need to be connected.

• 1:21:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, and also like the problem with upstate, and this is what nobody, everyone thinks like you have the best food, but the problem is, the only, the food's only good during the farmer's market time, but the farmer's market is on the weekends and Wednesday, and so you arrive on a Friday night and there's no place to go but the grocery store. The grocery stores are from hunger, they are literally, like, I mean, everything, there's nothing, there's nothing organic for miles, it's all like carcinogens, I'm like, I don't, this is not what I want.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 1:21:26Speaker 03

  It's not the same.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  It's not gonna be the way.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  What's your answer now?

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  What's my answer? Where I wanna retire?

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:31Speaker 03

  I think probably, I would like to be between the South Fork, Eastern Longa, Long Island and California. I wanna, I wanna get, have you seen that place in Paradise Cove, where all those little, I've been looking at those little, um, like trailers in Paradise Cove? Our friends of ours have a couple of people, our friends bought Sarah Paulson's, and it's the cutest thing you've ever seen, and then our other friends bought one across the street, and then our other friends...

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Oh, so you're gonna give a compound?

• 1:21:57Speaker 03

  It's like a lesbian compound.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  You know what else I like? And, this is sort of, sometimes I'm like, I look at, I'll go to like a restaurant there and I'll see the bar and I'll see me in the future is Palm Springs.

• 1:22:08Speaker 03

  I love Palm Springs.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Love Palm Springs!

• 1:22:10Speaker 03

  I just need to have water.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  That's the only thing, but the architecture in Palm Springs is the absolute best.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  And I like the dry heat.

• 1:22:17Speaker 03

  I do too, but I still need water.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but don't we all?

• 1:22:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I wanna be on a boat, at least that's...

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Fraser coated.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  You want, you want the water?

• 1:22:24Speaker 03

  Fraser coat, oh, not like...

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Do you wanna try the exercise where you're a traitor and we're faithfulls, or no?

• 1:22:31Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  I think, I think you might be pretty good at it.

• 1:22:33Speaker 03

  I don't, I'm the traitor?

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and, and so you name the scenario that we're in.

• 1:22:37Speaker 03

  Um, oh god, okay, um...

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  We're at breakfast, we're at breakfast.

• 1:22:43Speaker 03

  Okay, I was gonna say, when we're at the round table.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  Okay, and they've just given out all of the, like, we've just found out who everybody is.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  Okay?

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  I love that, I love that.

• 1:22:53Speaker 03

  Okay, and so this is at the very beginning, and we're just gonna like, we're now trying to decide, and I'm just gonna look at you, and I'm just gonna straight up ask you, okay, what card did you get? Like, so, okay, so we all just found out.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  I'm disappointed.

• 1:23:09Speaker 03

  So...

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  What did you get?

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  I'm a faithful.

• 1:23:13Speaker 03

  You are?

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yes, I did not wanna be.

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  You didn't?

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Are you a traitor?

• 1:23:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I got a faithful.

• 1:23:19Speaker 02

  Did you say yao?

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  No, I said.

• 1:23:20Speaker 02

  You just, you just, you just said yao.

• 1:23:22Speaker 03

  I said I, I wanted to be, like, I actually would rather be a traitor.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  You'd rather be a traitor?

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  I would.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  Oh, I can see the disappointment you have. No, I told Alan, I was like, no, I wanna be faithful.

• 1:23:33Speaker 03

  Well, wait, did you actually get to talk to Alan?

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  He did what you told.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  We all did our pre-interview with Alan. Oh, they didn't shoot with you.

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  No, but, but can I just?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Why would they not?

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Why would they not shoot with you?

• 1:23:41Speaker 03

  Can I?

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Can you?

• 1:23:43Speaker 03

  I didn't, but wait, can I just ask this question, though?

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  Do you think that he actually is the one who makes the decision?

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Jenna, you've seen the show before, he taps you on the show.

• 1:23:52Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  I think a team of producers tell him who to pick.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  Right, that's what I was gonna say, like, that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying, like, even if you have a pre-interview with him, do you think he really has influence, or is it something that feels like the producers are doing?

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Why does this matter?

• 1:24:05Speaker 03

  Only because, like, I just, you know, like, I wanna know who's being singled out, because I wonder who he doesn't like and who he likes.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Traitor.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  No, actually, can I just say?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty good.

• 1:24:15Speaker 02

  I bought it.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  No, I told her she'd be good. I think that you would be good.

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  Jenna, you would be really good.

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  You guys, let's do it.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Okay, hey, NBC. We're available. We're, we're just gonna have to stay in, like, a windowless motel by the airport for, like, three weeks.

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  Wait, excuse me, isn't it like in a big chateau?

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Girl, no.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  This is where it gets tough.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  This is where it gets tough.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Is the, the harsh reality of, like, being a reality contestant.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  They take your phone away.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  You gotta do all your own stuff.

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  Have we met?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  Not happening, I'm staying in some random hotel.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  Okay, well, then, so then you're out.

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  I just got, I'm out.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  I just traded.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Well, then, not that.

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  I'm like, fuck.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  And you know what, we're out too.

• 1:24:58Speaker 03

  Back to the no.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  We're out too, none of us are doing it.

• 1:25:00Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Uh, it's time for I Don't Think So Honey. So this is our 60-second segment that we do, where we take on something in culture that needs a little bit of dragging. And I am gonna, I have a sartorial, I don't think so honey.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Oh, fabulous.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Today.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  I don't necessarily know if I have enough material, I may just have an opinion, but I'm still gonna fill 60 seconds of time.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  I bet you can, this is Matt Rogers', this is Matt Rogers', I Don't Think So Honey's time starts now.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  I Don't Think So Honey, Alexander Skarsgård's see-through YSL shoes.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  I don't necessarily think we need to see everyone's feet. And I say this as an appreciator of Alexander Skarsgård's whole self, tip to top. I think he is just fabulous, but I don't think so honey, the see-through YSLs, I actually liked the suit, the double-breasted gold suit that he was wearing, and he was, actually, all the buttons were buttoned, and I think that you can do that now. You didn't like it.

• 1:26:00Speaker 03

  No, I loved it.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  You loved it, and I think that I might be having a different opinion than our guest, who I have a feeling might be, even though she's a lesbian woman, Alexander Skarsgård Pilt.

• 1:26:09Speaker 03

  No, I would, I would so fucking switch teams for that.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  She would switch teams for him, and I have a feeling that she loves the see-through YSLs. I'm not even saying I don't like them in general, I was just saying, like, slap the right shoe on that man, and I think, you know, we got a great look, but do we have the conversation? I don't know, so I don't think so honey maybe myself.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  And that's one minute.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  What do you think?

• 1:26:31Speaker 03

  I just, I, first of all, it's Alexander Skarsgård.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Ah, he's perfect.

• 1:26:36Speaker 03

  Everything inside of that is perfect, I, I'm sure it smells inside there, but I don't care.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  And honestly, like, I really love that he goes there, I just.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  I love that he goes there too, but that going there every single time doesn't mean that every single time it's gonna be a 10 out of 10. You liked the see-through YSLs.

• 1:26:52Speaker 03

  I just think they're just ridiculous, and his feet are hot.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  He's got good feet.

• 1:26:56Speaker 03

  Were they? His feet were perfect, I'm sorry, his feet were perfect.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  Did you see, like, I zoomed in on that.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  I zoomed in.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I, I took a gander, I guess I, I wasn't clocking, like, what's this foot giving? But, I mean, if you're saying it was good.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  Question for the two of you, would it have been kind of funny and a little witty, winky if he had worn socks?

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  No, I think if, if you're gonna be wearing a see-through YSL, you gotta wear it.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  There's no way the sock wouldn't feel, like, crumpled up inside. Here's my, here's the thing, is like, what I like is that it's a totalizing gesture, which is my favorite thing, where it's like,

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  Totalizing gesture.

• 1:27:27Speaker 03

  You just go, like, head to toe, there is nothing that's off, it's like, if he was wearing a leather shoe, like, it just wouldn't have the same impact.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34Speaker 03

  I loved it.

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  Totalizing gesture, I'm obsessed.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  I'm happy I brought it up, because I knew that we, we had a scholar here, and I've honestly been looking at it, and I was like, this is gonna be my I Don't Think So Honey, I don't know if I'm on board with it, but, I'm happy I brought it up, and I, I encourage men to show their feet.

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  I do too, I mean.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Did someone just say no?

• 1:27:56Speaker 05

  Me, I, I.

• 1:28:01Speaker 05

  Little paws down.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  It's a hot button issue.

• 1:28:05Speaker 03

  Okay, no, well, okay, within reason, like, if the shoe, if the feet are not, like, no one should be showing their feet if they're not cared for. Like, if they're not cared for, I don't wanna see them.

• 1:28:13Speaker 05

  And you, and you. Many straight men show their feet and they don't care for them, and it's so crazy that they think they can put them dogs outside like that.

• 1:28:20Speaker 03

  Women do it too, and it's just a hard no for me.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  It's, I guess it's worse then.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, because it's like, because they have to compete with every, because they have to compete with every other woman's foot who's out there, and I would imagine that, like, I'm not saying it's worse when a woman does it, I'm saying, you have a lot more foot competition, therefore, if you have a foot, and this is just, you know,

• 1:28:40Speaker 05

  It's normal for men to have bad feet outside.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:43Speaker 03

  I, yeah, I mean, that's a hard no for me, though, you don't get to have, if you have bad feet, like, I don't wanna see them.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Bad feet, put them away.

• 1:28:48Speaker 03

  Put them away.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Stranger danger.

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  Stranger, yeah, like, get those feet, those sandals that have, like, the toes already in them.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  Oh, you'd rather have that, okay.

• 1:28:55Speaker 03

  No, I'm kidding, I know.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Okay, Bowen Yang, are you ready for your I Don't Think So Honey today?

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  I haven't I Don't Think So Honey that, I, I, I am, um, this is a tribute to our guest, and I've, I've really not stopped thinking about it since she said this.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Okay, this is Bowen Yang's I Don't Think So Honey, his time starts now.

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  I Don't Think So Honey, Dill, at first I, I go, why is Jenna Lyons hitting on Dill? What did Dill ever do to her? Then I thought, wait a minute, it's disgusting. It gets everywhere, it's green hair.

• 1:29:24Speaker 03

  It's like a little net.

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  Pubey all over the fucking place, and it's pungent, acerbic, overpowers. Anytime people put Dill in the dish, it just becomes the Dill party.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  It becomes Dill featuring.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  30 seconds.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Everything else. I don't like it when something just hogs that way.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  And I think with herbs, you're supposed to enhance, you are supposed to bring out the best in everything else in the, in the dish.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  15 seconds.

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  Dill just comes in, kicks your fucking door down, and it's moving in. Evicts you, displaces you.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Five seconds.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  It is settler colonialism at its worst. In the dish, and I don't think so honey, Dill.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  And that's one minute.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  Oh my god, I love that more than anything I've ever loved in my life.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  You did, you faced a lot of, um.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  Pushback.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Pushback.

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  I was very, but I, I didn't pushback, I was like, I was neutral on Dill, I was like, oh, Jenna, what's Jenna's? I think, I think, is she thinking, it's a launcher, she's thinking, it's a parsley, no.

• 1:30:30Speaker 03

  Dill.

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Dill, thank you.

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  And it shows up more than it should.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:34Speaker 03

  Honestly, it wasn't invited.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Was never invited.

• 1:30:36Speaker 03

  It comes too frequently, I particularly don't like it when it's just doused on top of things, like on Sam, like, don't, it's like, I don't need you.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  It pretends to be garnished, and yet it infiltrates.

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  It is not.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  And dominates.

• 1:30:46Speaker 03

  It's, it does, it does, and honestly, with no value, like, it's not accretive.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Like, those words have been pinging around in my brain for the past four years, three years since you've said that, and I'm like,

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  I'm honored.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  I think it's because Dill gets, the reason why you faced pushback was because I think one of the great things in America is Big Pickle. And I think that people, people love pickle, and I think it's, it's the idea of Big Pickle that is colonizing the minds, almost like Dill often colonizes a dish. And I think that once people learn to separate pickle from Dill, they'll understand that they're dealing with, we're just dealing with excess over here.

• 1:31:25Speaker 03

  That's their, that's the moment, you've just actually named the moment. It is not about pickles.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  It's not about pickle.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  It's about the colonization of my fucking plate.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:31:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  And pickles don't need the Dill.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  No, they don't, I love a bread and butter pickle all day long.

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  Like, I do not, like, I don't, I clearly don't wanna Dill pickle.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Is there anything better than pickles? Like, I love, I, I recently discovered the snackable pickles.

• 1:31:46Speaker 03

  I love those.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Oh my god, all day.

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  I love them, you could pickle anything, I mean, well, within reason, I, yes, I'm like obsessed with pickles, and anything pickled, I'm.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Oh my god, we're pickled here.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  We're pickled, okay.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  We're tickled pink, we're pickled tink.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  We're pickled tink.

• 1:32:00Speaker 03

  Pickled tink, have you ever had pickled ginger?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Yes. I love everything pickled.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you're talking about, like, with sushi, or what?

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, but there's some really good pickled ginger, like, you can pickle ginger, it's slightly different, and it's the best.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  Fabulous.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Oh, god, now I'm angry.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  The ginger at Omen is like the best.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  At Omen?

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  Do you guys not go to Omen?

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  What's your favorite restaurant in New York?

• 1:32:21Speaker 03

  Oh, that's hard, but.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  So hard.

• 1:32:23Speaker 03

  Omen is like the old school, like, Omen's been here for, like, when I went to New York, what's crazy is the restaurants I went to, like, when I first started coming to New York, are Omen, uh, Indoshin, Raoul's, and Odeon.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Odeon.

• 1:32:36Speaker 03

  And they're all still.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  There.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:38Speaker 03

  And cool.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Still, they rise.

• 1:32:40Speaker 03

  I know, right?

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:32:41Speaker 03

  That's like my core.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  Odeon, there's no, there's nowhere chicier and less fussy, like, it's, but it's not fussy, Odeon.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  It's the best.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  This ad is sponsored by Vive Healthcare.

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

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• 1:32:56Speaker 01

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• 1:33:03Speaker 02

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• 1:33:09Speaker 01

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• 1:33:26Speaker 01

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• 1:33:36Speaker 02

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• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  Hey, Bo, in point of order, it feels like nothing is what it says it is anymore.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  Point of answer, it's because everything has a catch.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Hey, or it turns out to be something else entirely.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Like a total catfish situation.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Exactly, Bo.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  Except for hotels.com.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one's pretty literal.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  Because it's hotels.com, it's in the domain. You go there, you book hotels, hundreds of thousands of them.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  And hold up, that's?

• 1:34:04Speaker 02

  It? That's it. And when stays are booked as a member, rewards are earned every time.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  Every stay?

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  Every stay, no tracking or managing, just rewards that can be used like cash on future bookings.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, already feels nicer than most rewards programs, okay?

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, members can also get up to 20% off bookings, so savings start right away.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Does that mean no weird restrictions?

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  And no blackout dates. Book what works, when it works. It's actually really fitting of real travel.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  So the name is honest, you're saying? And the rewards are too?

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  Exactly. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  You probably think dressing well takes lots of money, or lots of time spent digging through thrift stores.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  Well, not to be rude, but you're wrong. So dead wrong. And honestly, we're happy for you, because now we get to tell you about Depop.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

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• 1:34:54Speaker 02

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• 1:35:09Speaker 01

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• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  That's a lot of listings, and somehow, it gets better. You can sell the stuff you no longer wear and make money, then use that money to buy things you do want to wear.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  It's a circle, like the circle of life, but for fashion. And since fashion is life for a lot of people, samezies.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Depop fashion, if it made sense.

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• 1:35:37Speaker 02

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  Ever wondered how to cruise? And I'm not talking about boats. Season four of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is finally here, and it's hotter, smarter, and spicier than ever.

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• 1:36:03Speaker 02

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• 1:36:17Speaker 01

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• 1:36:28Speaker 02

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• 1:36:33Speaker 01

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• 1:36:38Speaker 02

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• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  This, are you ready? This is a big moment.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  For the record, I have a list, a running list of things on my phone that are things that I hate.

• 1:36:48Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  And I think this is, this is literally the place to dump it. So do, do one, do all, do whatever you wish.

• 1:36:55Speaker 03

  I'm just gonna give all of them to you, because...

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  She's about to cum dump on us with all of her hate.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  We're just getting cum dumped on by Jenna fucking Lyons. This is Jenna Lyons, I don't think so, honey, her time starts now.

• 1:37:04Speaker 03

  Okay, I don't think so, honey. People who don't let you out of the building first, that is the rudest thing you can possibly do.

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:09Speaker 03

  People who block the box, you're not gonna get there any faster, you asswipe, just wait a goddamn minute.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:14Speaker 03

  Ugly banks, Chase Bank, you posted $57 million profit last year. Why does your gorgeous building on the corner look like a cheap gynecologist's office?

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Disgusting.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  Not okay for me. Why do drivers take, why do the dryers take my socks? It's 2026, why is that still happening?

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  Sock monster, you're cooked. Give it back at once.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Fuck you, sock monster.

• 1:37:31Speaker 03

  Purple cars, why?

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, that's tough, that's tough.

• 1:37:35Speaker 03

  Why are candlesticks and candles not uniform? Why is it that every time I buy a candle, it doesn't fit into the candlestick I have? Like, outlets, they should be standardized.

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:37:44Speaker 03

  It drives me crazy. I don't want to light my house on fire, I don't want them falling over, and I don't have to shave them down.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37:50Speaker 03

  Stretchy tight pants on straight men. It needs to be stopped.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Get a belt.

• 1:37:55Speaker 03

  TV over the mantles, who invented that?

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  Ah! No, you're right, thank you, eyeliner, bad for eyeliner, bad for neck.

• 1:38:00Speaker 03

  Bad. Vessel sinks, hard no for me.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Ah!

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  People who are close talkers, if I can see your kidneys, you're too close.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  Ah!

• 1:38:07Speaker 03

  Having so many goddamn passwords?

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:09Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:38:10Speaker 03

  And then any and all portals, I don't want to be on a portal.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Any and all portals?

• 1:38:15Speaker 02

  I don't want to be on a portal.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  And that was one minute, honestly, I would, I prefer it as a list of grievances.

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  I actually prefer it as a list too. You're ready to be admitting the form after 10 years.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  You are right, portals are horrible. I don't want to be here at all.

• 1:38:27Speaker 03

  When you have a child, you, all you have is portals. When you have, like, portals for their, for their school, portals for healthcare, portals, I just don't want to be on a portal. I don't want passwords, I don't want to be in a portal, I want somebody to, like, give me a fucking form and I'll fill it out with a pencil, I don't care.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's, wants paper culture too.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  I want paper culture, I don't want, I don't, I just don't like the word portal.

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  Portal, exactly. I don't like the word portal either, it sounds like I'm supposed to put my finger in something, I don't...

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Well, you like that.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  Portal.

• 1:38:51Speaker 03

  It's true, but that's, but that's an intimate moment.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Intimate portal.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Not for a child's school.

• 1:38:57Speaker 03

  No, it just doesn't, it's the wrong moment.

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  But, or, or portal feels like Stargate or Magic.

• 1:39:02Speaker 03

  Totally, it's just wrong.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  It feels like fantasy, it's not the right word.

• 1:39:05Speaker 03

  It's information that you need from me, give me a goddamn form.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:09Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't...

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Keep your portal.

• 1:39:11Speaker 03

  Keep your fucking portal, I don't want it.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  Honestly, well, in a way, this episode has sort of been a portal to cultural greatness.

• 1:39:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely, this, this is one of our, I mean, this is the thing. The whole, the whole premise of this podcast is that it's two people who are not qualified to talk about culture. And yet, here we are with truly one of the most cultured people we've had.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  And we have John Dunn to thank for that.

• 1:39:36Speaker 02

  We have John Dunn to thank, who's in Puerto Rico now.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  We hope wherever he is in Puerto Rico, he gets podcasts.

• 1:39:41Speaker 03

  I mean, thank, thank, I hope so. Have you seen that woman who lives upstate and she is Spanish and she has her own store? And she talks about all the people that come in and think that she's like, she's Spain, from Spain. And they think that she's either Puerto Rican, but they are like Puerto Rican, or that she's actually from Mexico. Have you seen her?

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:57Speaker 03

  Okay, you guys, this is my, it's my, it's, she's so fucking funny.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  She's like, here's the way people have made assumptions about me today, see?

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  Amazing, I don't know if I can, oh my god, it's so funny, Cass's pictures just came up. I have to send her, I'll have to find her for you, because you would die, she's beyond. I'm obsessed with her.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Well, while you find, while you use your...

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  I won't come more than 30 seconds, because I know that's...

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Your phone is a portal, um, that's, honestly, that's like, a, a real-life portal, is when someone brings their phone out and is like, oh my god, hold on a second. And then you have to stand there, and you're on a portal.

• 1:40:30Speaker 03

  That is the worst thing ever, I, I...

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Someone recently, I don't think so.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  Laura Benanti, right?

• 1:40:34Speaker 03

  Laura Benanti, I did, I watched that, yes, yes. Um, okay, I have to tell you guys something, really, like, this is, oh, you don't have to do it, but I, I saw, I saw Rosalía the other night, and I have this, she's incredible.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, were you at SNL?

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  We just talked about her.

• 1:40:48Speaker 03

  No, but my friend of mine is a dancer for, and so the last time I was in, when I was in Paris, I got to, he like, did a, like, a little moment with me and gave me a part of the routine and lifted me up and spun, spun me around, like, I was Rosalía, and it was the best night of my life.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:41:02Speaker 03

  He's the handsomest thing you've ever seen.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  Is he available?

• 1:41:06Speaker 03

  Actually, yes.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Is he gay?

• 1:41:08Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  It's about to be a, what, a girl fight?

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  If Matt and I were...

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  Do you guys like the same kind of guys?

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Some, I mean, every now and then, but if, but I think it would be fun to have a show or some competition for him, where Matt and I would have to, like, oil wrestle for a man.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  We've never talked about this, but I think we were at, he and I were at Berghain with one guy, and I think we were both really horny for him.

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  But he was horny for you, and he, he paid me dust.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  You think he was horny for me?

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:43Speaker 03

  And you let it go, didn't, you didn't pursue that?

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  No, because I was like...

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  And then you made out with another guy.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  What did I make out with another guy?

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  Some guys get all the luck at Berghain.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I made out, that, that was like, that was weird, though.

• 1:41:53Speaker 03

  But wait, you, have you ever, like, talked about the fact that you've been attracted to the same person?

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  You know what, we've dated the same guy once or twice.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  There was one, there was one, uh, point, tangential overlap, point of overlap.

• 1:42:03Speaker 03

  That is not okay.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  That is not okay.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Mr. Dick will make a sick.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  I know, I know, god.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  You gotta keep it separate.

• 1:42:09Speaker 03

  You gotta keep, were you guys seeing somebody during COVID, or were you?

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  I was...

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was.

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  You were, you were.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  I, I had a boyfriend for the first few months of COVID. We didn't coexist together in pandemic that great, um, but we are still best friends to this day.

• 1:42:25Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  Wait, well, what about Bo?

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Well, that's my, that's my sister-best friend forever, my bestie, and we're talking about Jared, who's our best friend, who's like, another best friend.

• 1:42:34Speaker 03

  Do you guys wake up in the morning and text each other, like, what's your...

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  I've been trying to get him on FaceTime more lately.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  I, I, I'm, I'm not opposed to, I just, I just, sometimes I'm not, I like to be away from the phone in the morning.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  He isn't on his phone as much as I am.

• 1:42:48Speaker 03

  But, so what's your cadence of talking to each other during the day?

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  But like, how, like, 50 times, 10 times, two?

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Depends, there are some days where we're like, very like, locked into each other, where we're all, where we're synchronized, and some days where, we're, now we're very much on weird schedules, where he's about to go on tour and I'm working these odd hours at night, like, it's...

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  I guess my thing is, I, it's less a thing of cadence, and it's always like, oh, when I speak to him soon, I will say this to him. You know what I mean? It's like, we, we often have the thing of, like, if we're together, it's probably we're spending the whole day together.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  And so, it's like a mix that you do of, like, making sure that you're catching up socially, and then also, like, understanding that sometimes when you've spent a whole day together, it's time to give that person a little bit of space.

• 1:43:31Speaker 03

  And when you guys start dating someone, has that, is that hard?

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  I care what he thinks.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  I care what he thinks, absolutely.

• 1:43:38Speaker 03

  But what about the attention?

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I like it when he's getting a lot of attention and giving a lot of attention to...

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  I feel the same way.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Speaker 02

  I'd never want to cut into that, I don't get jealous or protective of that time.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  I feel excited when my friends are getting laid with someone that they really like.

• 1:43:55Speaker 03

  Well, it's one thing to get excited, of course, but it's another thing to feel like, hey, worry about me.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we're not really like that.

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, no, I, he knows that I think about him every waking hour.

• 1:44:06Speaker 03

  Aww.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  I think about you! Remember that song?

• 1:44:10Speaker 03

  I love that. I love that.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  You want to be in our throuple?

• 1:44:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  Throuple?

• 1:44:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  Well, we're penned, honey.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:44:19Speaker 03

  I know, we're penned.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Lubed and penned.

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  Lubed and penned. Although I like, I like, what is it? Totalizing?

• 1:44:24Speaker 03

  Totalizing gesture.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  Totalizing gesture. I'm obsessed. I'm using that every single fucking day in my life.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Totalizing gesture is really good.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Really good.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Lubed and penned gets the clips.

• 1:44:31Speaker 02

  Lubed and penned, all right, all right.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  Especially with this outfit.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  With that outfit on. Well, this was an amazing episode. She's a fucking cultural icon to me and to you.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  And we end every episode with a song.

• 1:44:43Speaker 03

  What's the song?

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  La Salia! La Salia!

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Bye!

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  Last Cultureist is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeartRadio Podcasts.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Executive produced by Anna Hosni and produced by Becca Ramos. Edited by Hot Dog Sandwich. And our music is by Henry Kowalski.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Hey, everybody, it's me, Matt, and my tour is on sale now. This time, it's really Christmas. You can go to www.mattrogersofficial.com. Podcasts are a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl. It's called Have You Heard of Christmas? The answer to that question is coming. At this time, it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country and in London and in Canada. That makes it a world tour. Harry Styles, you're on burn notice. I'll see you soon.

• 1:45:38Speaker 06

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:46:16Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:46:47Speaker 03

  Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities, and drive growth. That's why Chase for Business helps small business owners like you by offering personalized guidance and digital tools that can help your business grow. With our guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn more at chase.com/business. Chase for Business: Make More of What's Yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Copyright 2026 J.P. Morgan Chase and Company.

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.