Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Original podcast
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Look, man. There. Oh, I see. Wow. Oh, and look over there. Wow, is that culture? Oh, my goodness. Wow.
Las Culturistas.
Ding dong, Las Culturistas calling. Much has changed. Look at our environment.
Look at the environment. Y'all, I think we are going to cozy up here, down here on the, um, I'm gonna call it the Malala Room.
Yeah, okay. So, we, remember the time when Malala kicked us out of our normal studio?
That was the best thing to ever happen. Give Malala more prizes and accolades for this impact she's had. She continues. Come on the show.
Honestly, at this point.
In 2026. No, she's coming.
Yeah.
And we're gonna do a kickball episode.
Now we have to have her. Oh my God, a kickball episode?
We should have a sports, something where, or just like.
Live from the court.
Live from the.
Would you call it a kickball field? Kickball diamond?
This is really where we falter in terms of expertise.
We host a damn sports podcast somehow.
Imagine that.
Imagine that. I'm having a great time.
If you don't know, now you know. Two Guys Five Rings, which we can confirm for the millionth time is the name of the podcast and no one stopped us and they can't now.
And they can't now.
Has premiered.
I loved that on today's show this week, you had Miss Jenna Bush Hager kind of giggling to herself because I was like, of course she knows.
Oh, she knew.
She was knocking back the Captain Morgan in college, watching that video.
Let me, remember the Billy Idol song Rebel Yell?
You think that applies to?
That was about Jenna Bush Hager.
I fucking love her.
I am obsessed with her. I love her. I'm having the best time. Literally, I really, I was, I was saying, I don't really have much to promote, but then I was like, oh, wait, yes, I do.
You're on the Today Show.
Two Guys Five Rings podcast.
Oh, yes, yes.
So I was like, oh yeah, of course I'll go back and I'm the last friend.
That's, that says a lot.
And so I made a whole joke about how that meant I was second place. But by the way, I just do want to say, I knew the entire time I wasn't getting that job. I did not want that job. Just to talk about employment status, my employment status at NBC.
We're talking employment.
And then we'll get to him.
No.
But I was like.
We're both still employed.
Everyone was like, ah, like, were you disappointed? I was like, A, no, I don't, I wouldn't want that schedule. B, Chanel Jones should have the job.
The legend.
And I, I will say, I knew the whole time I wasn't actually getting it.
Right.
And, but I did like that everyone thought I was a contender. I liked being in that conversation. It was fun.
You liked being in the mix, as they say.
And just how perfect is it that you got to work in morning television?
Ultimately, at the end of this week, I'll have hosted it 20 times.
Wow.
They got, they gotta get, get you a smoking jacket for that.
Truly. I guess that I would have four SNL jackets at this point.
Yes, 100%.
And just to speak on SNL.
What is that? I don't, I'm not familiar.
Have you already forgotten?
No, of course not.
I, um, so if you've been living under a damn, not even a rock, a boulder.
A big rock.
You may not know that Bowen Yang, my sister here, my co-host, my bestie, has decided to.
Suddenly depart.
Shockingly suddenly depart.
This is me.
After seven and a half years, the shocking departure.
So sudden, so, now, well, this is the thing. This is honestly what's behind it. It's like, it's time. Like, you would do seven seasons and then you would scoot. And then like, COVID and the current media landscape, the current like entertainment ecosystem is like so turbulent that like, people have completely valid reasons for staying longer, or in a lot of cases, don't have the like privilege of staying on as long as they would like to. I have this very beautiful thing where I get to say that I stayed on exactly as long as I wanted to. Maybe, I'm sure, and I've said this before, I was maybe unsure about going back, um, in the summer, and I'm so glad I did.
When did you make, I feel like.
Oh, my God, Barbara, exit interview.
That was the part where I ask a lot of questions that I know the answers to. But, I mean, I've been really waiting to do this episode with you, and I've also been waiting to do an episode with just you. And I know a lot of people out there have been wanting us to as well. And it's not because we don't want to, guys. It's whenever we're not together, just us, it's just because logistically, we could not do it. And we feel like we, if we're gonna do a culture catch-up episode, it should be a culture catch-up episode. And so, that's what it is. And the podcast is many different things, and will continue to be many different things. And we hope it surprises you week to week. But I've been waiting for this because I'm excited to hear how you're feeling. How are you feeling?
I feel so good. I also want to point out, the tea is, like, you're saying, like, you know.
Let's save the tea.
You already know the answers to these questions you're about to ask. But also, I don't think you and I have really talked about this.
Not really. I wasn't able to be there, which hurt my heart, but.
Really bummed me out.
I was there the last time I thought it was the last show.
Exactly, exactly.
And I was there in spirit, sobbing, laying on my back in my Orlando hotel, because I couldn't believe just how perfectly it was ending.
Like, that is, um.
It's like landing the Mars rover on like a square foot of terrain. It was like, there were no guarantees about how any of it was gonna shake out. Like, I went in-
Lots of unruly, like, you know, factors.
Totally. Like, working there is just making peace with the fact that, like, things are completely out of your control.
Mm-hmm.
Down to like, the audience's response to a joke.
You know, like, that is, um, I think that, and like, I think having that and like, going into it, like, down to like, 12:55 a.m.
Not being sure if that sketch was gonna go to air. I was like, there's a million reasons why I could get cut. Nothing is guaranteed. Like, that is sort of, in a nutshell, like, it kind of is perfectly illustrative of what that job is. And it, like, was resonant all the way through to the end. And I feel really, this word is meaningless, I think, maybe now, but like, so grateful.
I don't think that word is meaningless at all, because I think that there probably were so many times during that experience where you didn't know if you were going to be able to end the experience of working there with gratitude. So many different people have many different kinds of experiences leaving that show.
Yeah. Like, you come in and there is like a shared experience of being at SNL, but then ultimately it comes down to like, there's like a collectivism there, but there's an individualism in terms of like, everyone is on their own journey there.
Everyone has a different, like, length of their tenure, completely different struggles. It is like, what the experience of living is, which is like, it is
suffering to the point of having to like, arrive at a nihilism and then you create your own meaning from there.
That is what that job is. Of course, the poll quote's gonna be like, Bowen Yang calls SNL suffering, like, but it is-
I actually think this year, I give so much less of a fuck about what the poll quotes are gonna be.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And we were texting last night, we- I'm just so excited about the the future of the podcast now. I really am.
Not that, I don't, I don't think that this is gonna change it necessarily in terms of you not being there.
I just mean like, I don't know, I, I think after everything, like after this whole year, just like looking back and looking forward, it's like, this is the thing that's so been so consistent for us.
Yes.
And it's the thing that I wanna honor and bring honesty to and like, yes, authenticity to and my number one main focus. And I think that because of, of the past seven and a half years, like your energy being, you know, primarily focused there, now what's so exciting to me for you is even what you said the other day about how you were like, you know, what's crazy? I, I don't have to tell someone I'm unavailable just because they wanna do something in the fall. Like, I don't have to say, oh, I'm sorry, my October is booked out. You know what I mean?
You actually have like, freedom now to put energy into whatever it is that you want.
It's harder to get out of an unwanted plan.
That is.
That's true.
True.
But no, you're right. And I also want to acknowledge and honor the fact that like, this is, this was like a, a joint tandem experience for us. Because like, the show gave us a lot.
The show meaning?
SNL.
We like went through it together in like, I think in a very like, evident way, we were, it was like, one of us was on the show, but I think we were both like, living with it.
Yeah, I mean, like, obviously, obviously, I did not experience working there, but like, I, I always felt like it was a part of my life because of its omnipresence.
Yeah, yeah.
In not just yours, but also Sudie's, also so many people. And so, I think that what I've always been looking forward to for you is just more autonomy.
And, but just to speak again about the experience of working there.
Matt's like interviewer energy being directed at me. This is so exciting.
Bowen Yang is the guest on this week's podcast. But in terms of like, you said you're feeling really good. And that you're grateful that it all ended up the way it ended up. How do you think you'll feel when the first episode of the new season comes out?
Well, we're gonna be in Japan.
Busy by?
Busy by.
Happenstance or on purpose?
I think both.
I think this is like, so basically what's happening for me, for both of us, is that we are kind of like fire hosing new sensory experiences.
Mm hmm.
Towards us. Like, we're gonna be like, eating food.
Going, like, like, listening to sounds, touching things.
Wait, touching things, what? In Japan, where? I thought for a second we were gonna go to a petting zoo, and I had my head around that. It's sometimes hard for me to think about touching animals, you know this.
We're going to the Nintendo Museum.
Oh, that's huge.
We're going to the Ghibli Museum.
Hot ticket.
We are, we're gonna be touching things.
So I think it's just funny, because I feel like I, I, I'm like, trying to redirect it back to the show.
Yes, yes, okay, yeah.
But, no, but like, I guess it's exciting that you feel excited about other things, because I didn't know how you were gonna feel after it ended.
I'm sure.
Because it does warp you a little bit. Like, I can give that take now that you're not there.
Absolutely.
There were times where I would come to the show, and you would be there, and I was like, what happened?
I know.
You know what I mean? The energy could alternately be so high and unbelievable, and the best energy you could ever experience, or through the floor, to the point where I'm like, why are we even doing this?
I, well, you know what Matt Whitaker, our friend Matt Whitaker said to me? He was like, by the end, it seemed like even if you had like, a light show, or like, a bad week, like, you just, on Saturdays, like, it didn't stick to you. Like, you kind of showed up, you were like, okay, here's the rundown, let's go out to music, like, when the sketch goes up. Like, I had like, and this is, and this is an indicator for me, that like, oh, wow, like, this is, this is so beautifully, sort of, uh, wrote to me.
Uh huh.
That like, that comfort is like, not necessarily the point of being here.
Like, there is such a beautiful... Crucible of that show. And now that like I'm done with it, now that I'm through the gauntlet of it, I'm like, that is one of the most meaningful experiences I will ever have. I can't believe I got, the thing that happened during the last sketch, the Delta Lounge sketch was, I look out and I was like, I don't know, I don't know if like emotionally, this is gonna be like necessarily the resonant thing because what happens, according to some alums that I've talked to, including Eddie Bryant, she was like, oh, like, I cried more on Wednesday at the read through than I did on Saturday.
And I was like, oh, interesting. Like that, I was sobbing at the read through.
At the read through in front of everyone.
Yeah. And like.
Why, do you think?
Here's why. In the sketch, I say, you know, it's like a meta textual thing. It's like, oh, it's my last shift at the Delta Lounge. But in the sketch, I say, I've loved everyone here. I've loved every single person who works here. Like, I immediately broke down because like, I was, um.
And you knew it was a lie.
Well, yeah. I was gonna say, because I was, because I was like, because I was telling the truth.
Sure.
No, fuck you.
I'm being a bitch, of course, of course.
And there's like.
Even the struggles with people there, which anyone would have with any, any colleague they have. But of course, they're in the most heightened experience atmosphere. Like, those are gonna be hot and cold relationships, to say the least, but those are so valuable.
100%, I've learned how to work under what seems like an immense amount of pressure, which it kind of is and it kind of isn't. But it's like, I've learned so many things that have applied to so many other things. I always said like the credits don't transfer. I would always like go into like, press stuff for the show and be like, oh, you know, it's so fun. Like, I love that job. And it's, but you know, the process is so singular there. You have an idea on Tuesday and it could be on TV by Saturday. It doesn't work like that anywhere else. But it's a dream factory. I don't have to memorize lines. I just read off the cue card. I pitched to the rafters. I say the credits don't transfer. Like, this isn't how it works anywhere else in show business.
But yet, Culture Awards is a perfect example. I was like, oh, I think this benefited both of us that like, I had an understanding of like, what to do, how to do it, how to work with someone like Liz Patrick.
Yeah, who's the director of SNL, who directed the Culture Awards.
I was like, that was kind of like the veneer cracking on like that idea for me. Anyway, I cried on Wednesday at the read through because I was telling the truth and because there are no other occasions for someone to say that at that place.
Because we have to just like be like funny and like ironic. And there's a refraction of like, what's being said and how it should be received. And like, I will absolutely cop to the fact that that Delta One sketch was like completely self-indulgent. Because like, what am I gonna do?
That's fine.
Tell a straight, like, give a straight joke back?
Well, for a second, I thought that you're, because it did weirdly feel like you for the 80, um, trend forecasters, uh, weekend update piece, to be the last thing, because that was 80's last thing.
Yes, yes.
And I think that that also speaks, the fact that that was 80's last thing, and she was on the show for 10 years.
And she wasn't necessarily, well, she was not, given that type of platform like you were given. And we should say, very, very, very few people have been given that.
I think it's like, actually quite rare. And so, I guess, my question is, as it's going, and you know what? That's what that's felt like at the read through, and everything like that. And it's getting to be like, it's, you know, it's 1251, 52. Did you think there was a possibility that it would not happen because in a way you, you had that moment? And therefore, like, you, you've been in the costume before when things are cut?
Literally, I've been in the costume when things are cut. It is completely devastating because you are just like, emotionally.
On edge, you're gearing up for something. Literally, you're in the gear for something and then like it gets taken away from you. I want to say that like because of the Wednesday thing and just like going into that week at all. I was already like blessed by the fact that it was Ari as the host, Cher as the musical guest.
Yeah, wild. My whole thing was, how were you supposed to stay after that? You could never have gone back after that. I thought after the 50th, it could never. I was like, I didn't understand why you were coming back this season. Like, just to be candid, because I was like, it's after the 50th. You know what I mean? Like, it felt like other people were gonna leave. And then you went back and now it's like, I'm so grateful you went back and had that.
I'm so grateful I went back. And like, as, so as the night's going on, like, I was completely zen about it.
Either way, it was okay.
Either way, it was okay. Because 80 was there. There was just, I'm sorry, there was like an outpouring.
People that I hadn't heard from and people that like I, um, I'm sorry, it's people. It just felt like, um, a really beautiful thing where, what I was saying earlier, like, as I get on the floor, like I look out, it was like, basically like everyone who worked there was on the floor showing up. And, um, I just looked out and I thought, I'm so lucky that I ever got to work here. And I'm so lucky that I get to make this like little statement that's like barely veiled, where I'm like, I love you all. Like, it was, um, I'm so lucky.
Yeah. And it's not really like a place where, like you said, like where emotions get laid bare like that. I feel like people may remember highlights of the show where it feels like that might be the case. But you working there day in and day out, year after year, you know, that it's not someplace where it's like, you're necessarily like free to be like, hey, this is how I'm feeling and I'm expressing it exactly responsibly, et cetera. And so that was a question I had for you is, how do you think you've emotionally grown as a result of being on that show and the experiences that you've had doing it?
I feel like I've been accelerated in terms of, you know how like a presidency ages you like?
12 years or whatever in one term. Like, I feel like completely. I don't know. Either I'm like ripened or I'm like rotten.
I've experienced the full spectrum of things because you're right, like, working there is completely dysregulating emotionally.
Like either you are soaring or you are like completely in the dumps. Um, and that's just how like, it's like them's the breaks, kid. It's like that. It's like a show busy, blow hard. I'm not saying this is anyone in particular, but it's just like, it's just like you are constantly reminded by someone or something or some event where you're like, God, this is just, this is just how it is. This is how it is. And every week you get like a condensed version of like a developmental process on a project, let's say.
And Jesse David Fox writes about this, like all three words in SNL, Saturday Night Live are about time. And it is just time sort of like encroaching on you emotionally, physically,
process wise, creatively, like it is all those things bearing down on you. And then if you have the time to figure out how to like deal with all of that, then you will be um, so well equipped for everything else.
That doesn't matter if you're on the cast, if you're a writer, if you're in the wardrobe department, if you're in any other place at that show, like it is, wow. Every department there is a convocation of the most amazing people with this workman like attitude about showing up and doing the job and not having an ego about it.
And then of course there are moments where you have an ego about it, but it is like a collective thing. And like, I guess there was like some perception that like I felt like exceptional in any way. I really didn't. Anytime I got like some shine on me, my genuine instinct was always to make it about everyone who works there.
I mean, I do notice that about you, like, and I, and that's why I was so happy that that moment happened at the end of the show because like I said, I, I was like, oh, wow. It would be very like him. For this thing with 80 to be enough for him.
But I was really happy that you got more than that. Because I do think, I mean, you've done it several times today. You've made your experience and you've mentioned you trying to bring me into it. I ain't got nothing to do with that.
Yes, you do.
You have, you experienced like all of this stuff in a way. And I, one thing I want to say is that not everyone leaves that show and is like, ready to positively impact the workforce creatively. I can tell you that.
And so the fact that you are leaving intact emotionally, creatively, and like in terms of your humanity is, is like, you know, it's a feat.
There was no, there was no other way. I'm gonna say like, it's that Seth Meyers thing where he's like, um, or no, Mike Schumaker told Seth, you're gonna be talking about this for the rest of your life. Like congrat, like when he got the job, it's like, congratulations, you're gonna be talking about this for the rest of your life.
That is true, um, for me. I will try to keep it at like a reasonable volume. I am like, oh God. Sorry, these, these, these thoughts are just coming at me.
No, of course.
Polar Amy before she left the after party, uh, when she hosted the second episode this season, puts a hand on my shoulder, looks into my eyes and goes, we're all waiting for you on the other side. And I was like, fuck.
Yeah, that's so much.
It's like, this is crazy. And then that was like a reminder of like, oh my God, I work here. And like, this is like,
And there's another side.
And there's another side and like, I does feel like I've died. And the, and like, there's like, one of my heroes is like looking down at me and like telling me like, and even like 80 has been like, there's a really nice life waiting for you after this. Um, you'll miss it every day. Kristen Wiig.
Did she text you?
Of course she texted me.
Well, she'll be here in a couple of weeks.
She'll be here in a couple of weeks, but of course she texted me and then I texted her back. I was like, Kristen, like I will never forget, like the first time you hosted when I was here. Like the thing you told me was enjoy it because it's the funnest job in the world.
I remember when she said that to you.
Never forgot.
You know, we were talking when we were shooting Palm Royale, we were talking about this. And I remember like saying to her like, because she too also got like a send off like that. And I remember I, not to share too much about what we talked about, but I was kind of, I was kind of in my mind. I was like, your best friend, and also as someone who watches the show and enjoys the show and the legacy of the show and felt you deserved it. I was like, how do we make it so that he gets like a good, nice moment? And like, I think, I think that ultimately in terms of the totality of what it could have been, it probably was like beyond your wild, the streams.
Beyond.
I guess my question is with that, like, does Ariana become de facto your favorite host of all time?
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's no other answer.
For sure.
And Cher is my favorite musical.
Sorry, Kiki Palmer.
Sorry, Kiki.
You reigned for a while.
Sorry, Regina King. I.
I loved how unselfish the whole thing was. You know what I mean? Like, because it takes so much confidence and like so much, um, star quality to come in there like her.
Oh.
For her fourth time hosting and knowing, you felt on her, in her, in her energy, the being there with you, that A, her number one goal was servicing that sketch, which meant honoring like what was happening for you in it. And she was so there right next to you. But B, the like positivity she had that she's going to come back and do that show many, many other times. Because not every host would be like, yeah, let me give up the whole last sketch of this six minutes of the time for this cast member. But it was her and she did that. And it's not only because she's a good friend, it's because she's a really professional host who doesn't have like an ego about her time there. Which I think is like, pretty cool and worth calling out. And the fact that Cher did not have to walk her ass out there.
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Oh, and the share thing. Well, OK, I'll get to the share thing. I want to say, in terms of the sketch itself, like, my only wish is that, like, we could gotten, like, a bunch of other cast in there, ideally the entire cast in there, because it is just like, me, just like, I don't know, not imparting anything, but it's just like, I just, I want to be there with, like, the other people. It did just come down to logistics. Like, we did, we had, like, Mikey and Sarah there in the back, just, like, cleaning up the mess. Oh, and so, like, the eggnog machine was supposed to, like, be on the fritz and, like, spray everywhere. It was supposed to spray Keeney, and it was supposed to spray Jane, it was supposed to spray the people it was spraying. It just kind of got...
Too much.
It got to be too much, and Lorne... Came up to me and Celeste before, before the show, after dress, and he was just like, "I think it's better. It's just you guys, and you just play into the emotion of it."
He was right.
And then Celeste and I were like, "Lorne Michaels knows how to produce."
So Celeste came back to write that?
Celeste came back to write that. Um, we wrote some other stuff too. We wrote a Cher family reunion, which I'm so sad. Oh, this is a thing. Well, we'll get to Cher later. This is a thing.
You were still getting shit cut at the end.
Of course. It's totally, totally fine.
They were not like, "Well, you can have this, but you can't have everything."
I never, look, and I'm always like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cut, like, cut my stuff." Like, Keenan still has his stuff cut.
It's not a thing. You don't, I don't necessarily think-
You don't get a platinum card at the show.
No, and my other thing was, like, there was like a soft thing, maybe, where like, I would get, like, there was a designated, like, I was talking to Dismuks about this and James, Austin Johnson, about this. Like, it did feel like I would get, like, there would be like a designated Bowen spot in the, in the list of picks on Wednesday. And I'm like, "That's also my cue to leave." Like, I, I do not want the footprint to be edging out other people. Literally, I'm honest to God.
That's really noble.
That was, it's, it's just-
Not everyone has that feeling.
I was just like, "No, no, no, no, no. That can't be it."
Yeah. You know when it's time to go.
Right. I'm like, "This is, this is-"
Taylor Swift said that.
You, Taylor Swift, that legend. But, um-
So anyway, the Eris tour documentary. Can you imagine?
Yes, I can. I can. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So many other things. Wait. Oh, oh, yes. I wish there were other, there were other cast in that piece. We, we did just have to like-
But if there had to be one.
If there had to be, no, stop.
Keenan. He was in it.
Oh, my God, Keenan.
I was so happy they did that. Come on.
I mean, yeah, everybody. And like-
I don't know, man. That is a really, um, I can't believe I got to work there. And I said in the sketch, that is the thing that I will like, keep saying, like, I can't, it feels like it happened to someone else.
I'm so glad it happened to me. I am gonna pull you into this experience because I got to tell Jenna Rosatano, the stage manager there, one of the many wonderful stage managers there.
She's an icon.
She's an icon, but I, she kind of cried the hardest out of anybody besides Ari. I was like, Jenna, you, well, first of all, she said something that like destroyed me, which was, and this is not me like bragging, she just goes, I never, she goes, she goes to me, she's seen a lot of behavior on that floor. She's like, I've never seen you raise your voice or be unkind to anyone in the seven years that you were here.
Which like, means a lot to me.
It means a lot to me.
Well, that's why everyone hit the floor when you, when you were leaving.
But, but I told her, I was like, Jenna, from the very first time I met you, you were just so kind to me because I came down to the hallway outside of the studio, just to like, right by cue cards, because you could kind of hear what's going on on stage. I was, I came down to the floor to listen to your screen test. Because I was, I was, I just wanted to, I just wanted to like be close and just like, I don't know, send energy or something. And then she was there and she was like, are you lost? And I was like, no, no, I just, my best friend in the whole world is on stage right now. And I just wanna, I just wanna see how he's doing. And then she, she completely breaks down. She was like, that's your best friend up there?
Well, then stay as long as you want. And, um, just she, I see her as like a bridge. I don't know, like, I always think of you when I'm with her. And I always think about how kind she was to me and how.
She loves you.
I know, I wish I could see her.
She loves you. We will go.
We will go back.
She wants to get stoned and watch The Sopranos.
Oh, let's fucking go.
And make lasagna for us.
Oh, my God. That sounds fucking awesome.
She's, she's amazing.
Jenna Rosatano.
Jenna Rosatano, Italian legend.
Getting ripped and watching The Sopranos.
She's the fuck, every, I just, oh, God. Um, I'm sorry, I'm a mess.
I mean, no, I mean, like, it is, it is such a crazy thing in totality. Like, there have been so many moments where I'm watching it and I'm like.
I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening. And then at some point that transition to like me like completely just like marinating in this experience and then like of watching you do this show and then it ended in that moment and I was like, I was like, I was like alone watching it, which felt so crazy. Of course. And like, of course, all of our friends are texting me from the, the, your dressing room and like, they're all there and I could like smell it and feel it. I could feel how hot it was in the room. Like, and I was just like, God, like, it really is.
But it didn't feel, it, it felt conclusive. It did not feel final. Oh, interesting. You know what I mean? Like, it felt like it was like a wonderful way for this to conclude, this chapter, but it didn't feel like, like you'll be back on that show hosting, like, you know what I mean? Like, and I think it's so great that you get to have this great relationship with the show and everyone that works there. And yeah, I mean, just for it to end that wonderfully, I think gives all the validity to what Jenna is saying. It would not have been that way had you not done it like a pro, like a kind person and like a talent, like
the talent that you are. So I take my hat and all my clothes off to you. Oh. I'm naked. If you can't see, I'm completely nude. I've been completely nude doing this interview, this exit interview, title of ep, um, with Bowen. Um, is there anything else you want to say about it before we talk about heated rivalry or whatever the fuck? Yes. I, I need to just point out the Cher element of it, which was, we weren't sure if she was gonna do it, down to like Saturday. Yeah. Cause it was like, we wrote a bunch of different versions of it.
And she, uh, you know, she just wanted spare dialogue because it's like a she will tell you. She's a dyslexic icon.
Oh, my God. Wait, we haven't, we also haven't talked about her memoir, which, whatever.
Well, we will.
Stephanie J. Block doing the, it trades off between Cher and Stephanie J. Block doing the reading together because she's like, you're gonna notice that someone besides me is on the, is on the audiobook and it's the wonderful Stephanie J. Block who played me in the Cher show or whatever. By the way, okay, we were.
What a gig to score for Stephanie J. Block yet again.
Such a gig. We were to share family reunion. It did not get ma, it did not go, but I, but Celeste and I had the perfect experience of running around on Wednesday to all the cast's offices because they're like, I don't have a Cher. I'm like, ah, straight people don't have a Cher. Gay guys do.
Every gay guy has a share.
Every gay guy has the same share. Oh.
Oh, like they kind of understood what that was.
Snap out of it.
I had to tell them, I had to tell them about Snap, I had to tell them about Snap Out of It, but it's like, I, I had to teach Ashley Padilla.
You had to tell people about Snap Out of It?
It was beautiful. Oh, no, I didn't have to tell them about Snap Out of It.
People just don't know the culture anymore.
People just don't know the culture. And this is not, this is not just to, to like, um, evaluate anything about Cher's legacy or cultural impact. It's just that like, it's a gay guy thing to like, have Cher in their bones. Anyway, um, we weren't sure if Cher was gonna do it. And then Saturday she, uh, confirms, we're so excited. And then she, uh, you know, she was also gonna be the boss. But then like, we wrote, we wrote her like, it's like some zingy, like, roasty lines, like, the original line was something along the lines of like, I was like, do you have any feedback for me? And she would say something like, you know, even for me, you were a little bit too gay or something like that. But then she was like, I wanna, I don't, she was like, I wanna be kind. She was like, can I just say, like, you were perfect?
And I, and she was like, I just want, I just wanna kiss him or something. And then that, and then like, and then we had to, we had to go and like pitch to her that she would maybe sing, if, we would love for, if she sang with us at the end.
And because that was a question mark too. And then we go down, I go to her dressing room.
Oh, man.
And I was like, so it's please come home from Christmas by the Eagles and Charles Brown. And you've covered it. And I loved your cover of it on the album. She was like, okay, but what part do you want me to sing? And I was like, it's just gonna be the end. So do you want to run it? And I was like,
Oh, my God.
I was like, there'll be no more sorrow, not to grieve in pain. And then as far away from me as this microphone is, she's like, she's like this close to me. And then with the full force of Cher.
My God.
She goes, No be happy, Christmas. That's a, that wasn't like that. She did not crap, but she just gave me full, full force Cher. Directed at, and I was like, it felt like a car had crashed into me. I was, yeah, I'm like, I can't believe, I can't believe.
Every second of that.
She did that.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. Um, let's talk heated rivalry.
He has ended the conversation, everybody, even though this was my interview.
Oh, well, anything, anything else you want to ask? You've been so thirsty.
Not really. I do know all of it. Like I said, you can't shock me with anything.
I, I don't know. Is there anything else? I mean, not really. I guess. What's next for you?
What is next for you?
Wait.
What's next? You, should we say anything?
Wonderful things. Well, I love this, like, press run of like Bowen's first major project post SNL is. Two guys vibrating.
Oh, I love it.
Not that I'm not honored to have that technically be the first project post SNL, but it's like, well, let's not.
Yeah, the Olympics podcast we're doing. I mean, we are going to Milan. We actually, we have a very fun next few months.
So it's funny because like, we do have to, we have to execute this movie.
We have to write our book.
We got to get the new culture awards together.
That's gonna be very fun.
We have to, um, we have some. Other things that are have not hit the trades. But there's, there's a long list of things. And so that's another thing is I was like, to be honest with you, it like really wasn't tenable for you to keep working on the show because we're gonna be in debt soon to these people.
Which is so exciting. I think it's like, there is, it's not even like, what's the next act? It's like, there is a next act, just wait. Like, it's like, you don't have to decide on anything. If, if you added things to our and your plate, that would be great, but you don't even need to, bitch. And, and I just want to make sure that you know that the pace at which you've been going and the workload that you've had has been abnormal. And so it's gonna feel a little bit like less. And I just, I feel like as someone who it's really interesting because like I have had this whole other like career outside of like what you've had. Like, I feel like you got to develop for such a, for seven and a half years at this show and like everything.
And my resume is like a little bit different. Like for me, it's like a ton of other things. And I've had a lot of different experiences.
You are so perfect at all of them.
But, well, I do think that sometimes it was a little bit like, because it's like when you are right next to someone else, like all you have to do is like compare yourself to them. It's like, you know what I mean? It's like with like sisters or like twins. It's like if something happens to one, the other one almost feels like, why isn't it happening to me? So I do feel like sometimes I would like overcorrect and like really, really, really push myself to make sure that like I would develop in an equal way alongside of you. And like, in so many ways, I feel like, and it doesn't really matter what I feel like, because a, as a result of existing and working and, and, and caring, you do develop. But
Just outside of all that, like, one thing that I've had to learn, and I think now you'll be forced to learn, is balance.
Like, and I think that, I hope that it excites you and doesn't start to make you anxious and nervous.
I'm sure it will at certain points.
I just, I'm telling you, like, you can always tell me if it does, and you can always vocalize to, like, on camera, I'll say this, like, "You're a therapist" and stuff like that, like, you know what I mean? Like, be checking in about what it's gonna feel like to suddenly not have an abnormal schedule.
Truly.
You know?
I'm on it.
I think it's gonna be okay. I will make room for, like, moments where it feels really bizarre or maybe even bad.
You should be bored.
I can't, oh, don't even worry.
Well, the thing is, it's so funny because, like, literally, we're not. Like, so you're, we're going to Tokyo.
We're going, we're going to Japan.
We're going to Milan.
We're full-on continuing this podcast, like, full steam ahead.
Full on.
We got a new contract and everything, bitch. We got a new set.
And, can I just say?
I want a new picture.
Yeah, we're gonna get a new picture. We tried this one.
I liked it.
But let's, we need to see our faces more.
You, this was so icon, the one of us naked and like this, and you were like that, was so iconic that I feel like-
Did we go back to it?
I don't think we go back to it. I think, I think we have a picture that works.
Okay.
I think maybe we do an animation on it.
But anyway, so this is just for us. But what I was saying was, like, um, you're gonna, you're gonna go to, do you tell everyone where you're going after Milan?
I am going to Santiago and then through Drake's, Drake's Passage, Antarctica, with my parents, because that is, I think it's, I'm gonna say it's my mom's dream.
Antarctica trip with my parents is so crazy.
We're gonna see the penguins, we're gonna get our sea legs, I think I'm gonna vom on this boat.
Are you, do you get seasick? Or the waters rough?
The roughest waters.
It's the roughest waters. But oh my God, I'm gonna see, we have to like, order like, special parkas for this. Like my mom, when, when she came, when, when they came for Thanksgiving, they stayed with me and my mom was just like, whatever, like helping me clean the apartment, but it's just like on loop the entire time or just on an auto mixed playlist, just content about this boat in Antarctica, people and steerage, just like vomiting, like this is, she needs this to happen and I need it to have. I think, this is what I'm saying, I'm like fire hosing myself with new experiences.
So how many continents will that mean you've visited? Five?
Um, the only one that I'll have not visited by the end will be Africa.
You've been to South America?
I will, Santiago.
Oh, right. So yes, of course.
So that'll, that'll, that'll check. That's Chile.
That'll check too. Anyway.
I've randomly been to South America. I've randomly been to Bogota.
By the way.
Oh my God, that's right.
Speaking of South America, so all this Venezuela stuff.
Stuff.
My, you know, my aunt used to live in Venezuela?
No, shut up.
Aunt Chrissy.
What?
Yeah. So.
What does she think about all this?
She's like, so, so I asked her, I was like, I was like, so what are your friends there thinking? And she was like, honestly, like, they're, they're free, they're relieved, but she also is like, we'll see what happens in the next few weeks, like, because certainly chaos is gonna break out, like.
Well, this is, this has all worked out so great in the past when we've been a part of regime change.
Exactly. I mean, but, but the thing is like, and I've seen some, some friends of mine who are Venezuelan are like, sort of saying like, you know, if you don't understand this, like, don't say anything. It's not as simple as like, like.
Well, I do. All of it, no.
My one friend shared like, you know, if you're drowning and someone throws you a life raft, you don't question where it came from. It just, you just take it and Venezuela has been drowning. So that was like a take I hadn't considered because, you know, the vast response to it is like, this is illegal, what he's done, this is, you know, this is exactly like Iraq, you know, this is et cetera. And I think all those things are true, but it's been an interesting perspective to literally ask my, I mean, so my aunt was married to a guy from Venezuela back when they were a wealthy country.
I didn't realize Chrissy was, was down there.
So she was her, my, um, my former uncle Maurice, like they were married and they got divorced because he was a asshole, but they were wealthy. And Venezuela was at one time prosperous. So she's still got friends back from that era and they are not feeling like that anymore. Like it's gone off a cliff, like under like the regime of the past like 30 years. But it's been an interesting thing, like just to look a little bit beyond the initial reactions to what's going on. It is yet another complicated international moment. But yeah, it's just been really interesting and I realized I had like a literal resource to people there.
Yeah. You and Chanel should trade spots on the Today Show. You should be behind the desk.
I should go to the regular, I should become a real journalist.
You should.
I mean, not now.
I almost did, you know, I went, you know that I was initially a broadcast journalism major. I thought I wanted to be Ryan Seacrest.
You?
Not even though he's not really a journalist.
Yes, sure he is.
I don't know, is Ryan Seacrest a journalist? So I initially I was like, I want to go to school for broadcast journalism. So I could hopefully one day get like a radio show and then maybe host something like American Idol. This is before, but the whole time underneath that, I wanted to be an actor and low key like a singer. And so like, um, that was always buried underneath what I could package me wanting to be in the entertainment industry with, which was at first broadcast journalism, because that didn't seem too gay.
Of course.
And then comedy, because that really didn't seem gay. That seemed like edgy and fun and something that like, I could tell straight men and straight people in my life that I was doing and it was cool. It's like a way to be on stage that's not gay.
But I eventually like realized I am gay.
But isn't that the tension with, Sudhi has this, right? Like you just want to tell like any, any guy who like doesn't see it as theater, you're like, it's theater.
Yeah, it's like you're doing something gay, dude.
You're doing something.
You're up on stage being like, hey, I'm in a full face of makeup, like, and I'm mic'd. You know how gay it is to get mic'd?
Someone has to run a cord down your shirt.
It's so much and then they have to like look, they have to like meticulously work on your collar. It's like gay.
Yeah, well, even just like a stool and a water bottle.
That's still technically considered like.
Set.
A stool is one of the gayest chairs. It's Real Culture number 11.
A stool is one of the gayest chairs.
Is one of the gayest chairs.
Ariana Grande sat on one, or kneeled on one for um, uh, her second album.
And gay culture was never the same.
What's your favorite Ariana album?
Oh, that's so hard. Production on.
And why is it sweetener?
And why?
No, I mean, come on. It's, it's actually positions.
You love positions. I, I, I'm a, I'm a dangerous woman. Stand forever.
Freak.
Freak forever.
Love dangerous woman. And nobody gonna touch it, touch it, touch it.
Um.
Is she coming back on the show? Can we, Tish, text her?
Yeah, we'll text her. She, well, I was gonna say, she obviously, if she doesn't do the Culture Awards this year, it's because there, she's got a million other things going on.
She obviously wants to do it.
Oh, my God. By the way, you know what just came out and we didn't even realize?
The SAG nominations.
Shall we read them live?
Let's read them.
Okay, wait, this is exciting. Um, before, before we do this, uh, did you watch the, like, Critics' Choice and everything?
I did not watch the Critics' Choice.
It's looking like, um, Ms. Madigan has taken that Academy Award, babe.
Jacob, surprise.
Yeah, ju- huge surprise.
Huge surprise.
Um, okay, what is this? This says, oh, to be revealed on Wednesday.
Sorry, guys.
No problem.
So they'll be out today, if you're listening to this in the morning. But, yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
Um, I did not watch Critics' Choice, but.
I watched it.
What'd you, what are your thoughts?
Um, so the winners were Chalamet. I think it's his year.
Chalamet, Jessie.
Jessie Buckley. I, I haven't seen Hamnet because I wanna, like, so this is the thing.
Do you wanna watch it? You should watch it on the plane to Tokyo.
Maybe I will.
I just, I, I need to be in the clear. I'm a little bit emotionally raw right now.
And, um, I need to be in the clear with something like that.
Totally.
It's another, and you know what I'm realizing? It's like, it has to be the right time for me with some of these movies.
I understand.
Hamnet, I, I was gonna go see it, like, a screening, and I was like, oh, I just don't think it's, like, the right time, I'm gonna be destroyed. So I didn't get to see it. And also, I can't find four hours to devote to Avatar. I can't, I, I, I, at the present time, can't do it.
Cause, cause it's a three hours, I had tickets.
We were gonna go with the band.
Uh, and on the road, and I was like, mm. With our precious time here before, between rehearsing and traveling and doing shows like-
Busy.
To watch a three hour, 17 minute movie that's gonna have over half an hour of previews and then you have to get there, whatever. That's like an almost four and a half hour commitment.
And I don't know what it is. I always enjoy the Avatar movies. You know, my baby is strong.
My baby is strong. I hear the whales have a great dialogue in this one.
And that's gonna help me get there. It is. I also heard this Una Chaplin-
Una Chaplin, what, and the character she plays?
Prayong, Pravong. Who's seen the movie? You have- Varong. Varong. Does she give?
I hear she gives. I hear, I hear, I hear Varong is the star.
Alright, well, I'm gonna go. It's just that there hasn't been ample time. I've been, I've weirdly like not stopped being busy.
That's so weird of you. Yes, of course. We all know this.
Like the tour, just to speak on the tour, the tour was like the best version of the tour ever.
And I'm really- I didn't even give you the space and the flowers. Congratulations.
I, it's like not my day.
Christmas and December. Yes, it is.
It's your day.
No, it's both of our days.
I have had a-
You keep evolving the show.
Several months.
Yes, you have.
The tour was the saving grace that it always is for me. It like has, it was the best version of it ever.
You sounded amazing. And this is my first year where I wasn't able to see it live, which I am very sad about.
It's all good because I literally spoke to our agent last night. So candidly, like six weeks ago, I was like, maybe this is it. I was like, maybe this is the last year. Cause I was just-
It's a lot.
You know what? Like, I'll just like own up to this. Like, I've been feeling, I've been feeling a more self-conscious. And a little bit more vulnerable to people's opinion. And I think that like, one of the things that happened when I was doing the tour is I was just like, just there with me and the band, which is like, we're such like a literal like unit on the road. We have so much fun. This was the most fun year yet. And everyone that had come to pace and see that show and like, I felt such like a duty to make it the best one yet. And I think that was what was giving me such anxiety, was I felt like this weird combination of-
Like self consciousness about whether I was gonna be able to deliver a product to that I that is good enough like for me to show everyone and get people out buying tickets and still come into the show. But also that was like in the face of me being really like, like I hate to say it, but like caring what people thought and were saying and like just super aware that like, I think that what you experienced like four years ago, or maybe four or five years ago with becoming like a lot more recognizable I experienced in the past like year. Yeah. Like, and I also, I always try to like shy away from saying something like that because again, I compare myself to someone like you who's like
much, much more recognizable and much, much, has much, much more notoriety because of the platform that you're on. But I also like, it wasn't serving me to deny that my reality was changing because it did. And like a lot of the things that people will say online when they're really mean is like, he is no talent. Like he's just riding on Bowen's coattails. The most untrue. And the thing is like,
with the show and like when I. The concert. Yeah, with my, like my Christmas show. Yeah. And with like, you know, being involved in things with people.
Even just doing things like Today Show, like being on Palm Royale, like I was in that movie Good Fortune, like you know what I mean? Like I've had a busy year and doing the culture awards like was so edifying and came, I just ended the year being like, all that is such bullshit. Like this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I will always do. I never in the beginning, when I was developing myself and my talent and my career, ever had any doubts about that. And then suddenly like, I don't know if it's because the culture awards like truly took me for a ride and I had to reexamine a lot about my anxiety and stuff like that. And whether or not I enjoyed a lot of the elements that come along with putting yourself out there and being in the entertainment industry. I can fully confidently.
Say at the end of this year that as long as I keep the focus on what matters, which is the work and how I'm making people feel and how I'm feel doing something. I have no doubt in my mind that I love this and that I will always do it. But I was having a hard time.
I understand. And I also just want to say you were meant for this. You are the funniest, most talented person I know.
That's subjective and you are biased.
Best writer, most best work ethic. What's that?
Contract. And so he has to.
I have to say this.
He has to say that. I actually made sure that was in the contract.
I was happy to sign.
Now say my mile time.
Mile time is four thirty six.
Very good. But anyway.
Recurring joke on Two Guys Five Rings. Tune in.
So what I mean to say is I literally had the conversation with our touring agent, Joe, last night that we're gonna do it again.
So I'm gonna do it again and I'm always gonna do it probably in some as long as, as long as Henry Kuprisky doesn't bail on me and he already texted me like literally the day or two after the tour ended and he was like, I already have so many ideas for next year.
Oh, I love this.
And that was so different than what the energy was like three or four years ago.
Where you would end things.
He fully told me like, I don't want to do it again. I feel like we need to leave a good thing. And then I was like, just give me one more year. I was like, you know, I'll, I will train my voice with a, with a coach so that you don't have to do it or get me ready as much. Like I'll come to rehearsals really prepared. I will, I will work on, you know, it was hard when it was just he and I.
You know what I mean? Like it was, he was, he was my ex boyfriend.
It was just he and I traveling around the country and I was like, not the trained singer I am now. You know what I mean? Like, and so sometimes tech was hard or whatever, but I worked on it really hard. And I've, I've worked on myself really hard. And I'm finally doing things like without saying too much, like recently that really put me first and have a belief in my self-worth. And I'm so serious this year. I'm not, I'm not engaging with the online discourse.
I'll say something about that.
It does not serve me.
It doesn't serve you.
No, of course. But the, the thing about you, it being just you and Henry, like this is something that even I forgot, but that is like the.
gumption and the resourcefulness and like the like self leaning thing that you've had to like depend on for all these years like Matt you've like think of like how that's developed over like the past five years like that is so
well it actually really makes me feel like anything is is like possible with people in your life because like he and I are truly like soul connected in terms of like what we create and what we do and sometimes when I'm doing the show especially towards the end of the tour like I'll look back at him and I'll be like I can't believe that's still that person you know what I mean like I cannot believe that that person is still around especially after like you know how stupid you are when you're like 26 27 years old and how you treat people that are close to you and how how like you really have to like stick with people especially like through your late 20s early 30s and then not everyone is supposed to stick around
no
but I'm like so happy that he has and it connects me to Ethan his partner now who's like makes my tour better he's the tour manager etc
I've had like no emotional release since then so it's like because I stayed really busy just like a lot's been going on but um
yeah like I just I'm super grateful I'm super grateful that everything shook out that with with obviously with that project
but with him I mean that's really the most important thing like at the end of the show like the band takes a bow and then I make sure that just Henry and I take a bow because like he truly like you know
he you guys
people that know the lore know the lore
the lore is truly profound it's like you guys really
boosted each other up from like what didn't seem like any sort of like I don't know like low point but it's like we we were all like we didn't really know like how and that's a beautiful thing we didn't really know how much we were like struggling and it wasn't even I don't want to frame it as a struggle either we were just like really working really hard like we did not
yeah
we did not come from this
With like, I don't know, like with too many like
Blessings besides like the obvious ones.
And like this is, this is not to make this about me, but this is like, our dichotomy, you and I is always, and I, and I feel completely great about this, like, I feel like I see like my track on, like in the last seven years is like me being a part of something that like affords me a lot of things and you being almost exclusively a self-starter. Like you get to look at this tour as like your creation, your and Henry's beautiful thing that you've built together. And I get to be like, oh, I've, I had a great time on this thing that like on this very well oiled machine.
Well, we started this girl.
And even that, we take this for granted a lot.
Abs, for sure.
I think we take this for granted a lot. And I feel like, you know, this is like the, this is the first episode of the 10th year of the podcast. And that's like crazy.
That's crazy.
And I think the reason we don't think of it sometimes as like, um.
Even though we do a lot of work for it.
Sometimes I don't realize how much work I'm doing for it. Like, you know what I mean? Like sometimes I'm like, whoa, like I just spent hours like working on the podcast. And I think because it's rooted in something that is so easy, which is like talking to you and like our friendship. But um, I am sensitive about this.
Like I'm really sensitive about this podcast. And why, I guess what I want people to know is like, like we aren't working so hard and we're still, even before we started rolling, we sat here for like 10 minutes being like, what like really thinking about the color of the chairs for the set, you know what I mean? Like really caring about and think who we put on this podcast and what we share and we try to get out of them.
And how we deliver it to you. I mean, I will, I will be transparent and say that Matt and I have had, have turned down.
Many people.
Not people, I'm saying a lot of money.
For deals where like it would compromise the way that this gets delivered. I'm just gonna, we're just gonna, are we, are we, I'm, I feel like I, I feel good about saying.
Like, because it is true. And this is, I guess, again, what I want to say is that like.
We have earned the right to do this the way we want to do it.
Absol- fucking lutely.
That being said.
Let's talk about some culture.
Last, last, last thing, last thing I'll say about like the, like, about like what's being said and like being sensitive to that, I, the reason why I was also very emotional the last show and just seeing like that sort of thing being like directed in my way, that kind of that outpouring, as I said earlier, of love.
Is because it completely undid this other narrative that was running parallel in my mind.
The very vocal loud one, whereas I think the love one is like, was there all along? I just wasn't attuned to it, but the vocal loud other track that was going on was like.
But listen, like, everyone who works at that show engages on different levels with like the comments.
It gets to us.
Cause it's week in and week out and you really don't ever get a break to be like, oh, let me not engage.
It's just so consistent.
And even the alums are like, I don't know how you guys do it now.
There would be like one review in New York Magazine on Sunday and then that would be it and everyone going on, gone about their lives.
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Do you remember years ago Tina Fey like won an Emmy? And she used, I remember at the time watching it and her speech was mostly used to respond to online commentators.
She has a whole chapter in Bossy Fans about it.
Yes, and I realize now that that was not purely ironic.
No. And that's okay.
It's okay because this doesn't make any fucking sense. The way that anyone that we have, that we are openly available to read anyone else's thoughts.
About what we do.
And yeah.
And so this is, this is what I'll say about like the commenters for me, which is like, I feel like I was really bogged down the entire time I was there about like, the idea that like, there was no range in anything I did.
That's just such a lazy critique.
Well, it's just, there's, it's not lazy. It's just, it makes sense in terms of like, there being like,
there being like an indigestion, as it were, with like, receiving me where I'm like, I knew I was never gonna play the dad. I was never gonna play, you know, the generic thing in sketches where it's a sketch show. Each thing is like four minutes long. It is shortened, collapsed by sort of necessity. And so therefore it plays on archetypes. These archetypes are also in a relationship with like generic things and there is a genericism in whiteness and in like being like a canvas to like, build upon and like I had like, I came in sort of like pre-stretched, pre-dyed, whatever.
You know, like people had their over determinations on like what I was, which was like, oh, that's just the gay Asian guy in SNL. And so anytime I would try to like, work outside of that, it got. Completely ignored, or it still got collapsed to, oh, he's an Asian, he's being gay Asian as always.
You did so many things that were, first of all, it is a, I don't think people necessarily know they're being homophobic when they say that shit.
Oh, they're 100%.
But it is, because, I'm sorry, but if you don't have range.
I think range is a myth, and it's all about like palatability, whether there's a serp, whether you're getting taxed on it, or you are subsidized. You know what I mean?
Did they knock Pete Davidson for range? Or does he get to get away with it because it's cool? And like, within a male gaze, sorry, is that, is that wrong or right?
I could teach like, a media studies like seminar about this, I think.
I bet you should.
You both, both of us could.
I'll be the TA, because I, because you know what they do? Nothing.
They have no range.
And so, this is the thing, I just bring this up because this, that is one little thing that I wanted to like, that I'm, I'm getting so much clarity on, it's the reason I, why I've been so emotional about the posts, like the, the postscript of this.
You talking about all the work you put into the tour, into your projects, into this show, that is all running counter, that is, that is the panacea to all of that noise. It's not real.
And this is not real, and it's so easily debunked. That's what drives me crazy, is I know I could log on and kill these people in a second.
Of course. And George, George Taveras was saying this on Straighter Lab, it's like, there's like a phenomenon going on now where like, there's like a, it's kind of like Pluribus, it's like, there's like, the remaining people, there's like a survivorship thing happening where it's like, the remaining people in the comments are either like, clearly bots, or clearly mentally ill.
Or clearly children.
Or 12. As Lucy Dacus says, they're all 12 or something.
There's one person online who constantly comes for me.
And I realized recently that they're 13.
I, I, it became very clear to me that they were a kid. And I was just like, oh god, how much brain space have I been angry at this 13 year old?
And you know they're failing pre-algebra, it's sad. It's like, oh, my, the fact that you're obsessed with me means that you are not doing well. You're not, you're not selling Girl Scout cookies this year.
I mean, and that, my thing is just like, and, and I, and I don't, it's, I'm not, we're not dunking on that person.
No, no, no.
It's just the fact is what it is. You're just 13 on the internet. So, and you have every right to do that. I am an idiot for investing in it and like, it's an opinion, but I was using the fucking Reddit as a report card.
You can't do that.
First of all, that Reddit.
Cause I'm a report card kid.
I'm invisible to that Reddit. Meanwhile, they're all like.
I don't get it.
They're like, we need Matt's takes on heated rivalry. Oh, I'm, I'm on this.
You did recently look at it.
I did. I'm like, I'm on this show too, by the way.
Yeah, whenever they just mention me, I, do you know what I think it is?
It's cause they, they, they love, they attach.
I think that I am, I feel more accessible to them because I'm not actually A-list famous. I, and I also think, I think they think they know what you think about heated rivalry.
I, let's get into it.
Here's a thing about heated rivalry. A show can be so amazing and incredible, even if there's virtually zero conflict in it. I fucking love it.
I'm obsessed with the show.
Did you ever come to the show?
I never touched my dick once.
I think I paused, walked around, like, had a snack, and then I jerked off. It wasn't like, oh, let me, you know.
You know what? Before I watched it, I jerked off to it because I was like, I'm not gonna watch that. Might as well just use it what it's for, porn, because I had been told so many times, this is porn.
And then I was like, wow, this is a cultural phenomenon I must pay attention to. You cannot, because suddenly it was all over my algorithm, someone that hadn't even watched it. I was like, okay, the world is deciding it's this. It was as big as White Lotus.
I would say so.
So, finally I watch it. Here's my two takes. That's not porn.
I did not think that. I thought it was explicit. I did not think it was grotesque. It, it did not feel too much. I wasn't, maybe I just watched too much porn. I wasn't like clutching my pearls, watching it. I was like, oh, this looks like hot sex to me. Hot movie sex to me.
I was like, oh, look at the framing on that. There's a lot of negative space above their asses. You don't see that that often.
Can I say something? This, it is all love to Jordan Firstman, and I think he's probably sorry he said this about like gay guys don't have sex like that. Like, I don't need to see someone pull out their dick and a little bit of poop on it. Like, I'm sorry, that's what gay sex is like.
That's what gay sex is like.
I don't need that in Heated Rivalry, the romance, the romance show.
This is, this, this, this is the other thing. This, this also like dovetails on my, on my first comment about Heated Rivalry, which is like no conflict. It's because it is a fantasy. And it's because it's, this is the, this is like the romance genre. It's like every word, every detail is engineered to make you obsessed with it.
Yep.
And it worked. And it worked. And, and welcome to the Fujoshi community. Like, I've known about this world since I was 12 on fictionpress.com, where the people who are writing the best yaoi gay shit were women.
Listen, I, I think-
Escurella, if you're still out there, she was the queen of yaoi fiction. And I was like, oh, it's, oh, the straight cis women love the gay stuff and are the best at writing it for some reason.
Well, do you want to know what?
Rachel Reed.
First of all, she has imagination in writing about it.
And then like a gay, a gay man did create the show, like, and so he is in charge of like the way it disseminates from the page of the novel to the screen. And he did an amazing job. And I do think he's being erased a little bit in this commentary about like, oh, oh,
it's straight guys playing those roles. My second point is, you do not know that they're not gay.
And I don't care.
Oh, but also-
I don't care.
I don't, I don't think, well, at this point, it's like- The target keeps moving for this discourse because like.
Oh, say it.
So Demaw, so Demaw fucking like doxed shit about Hudson.
They're on the way down.
I'm like, first of all, they fucking, Demaw and Page Six are just spewing lies that like my PR team has been like, that's not true. I did not get a lot of money thrown at me.
No, he did not.
Which is all good. I still did it. Still loved it.
I don't have some like development deal coming. I'm trying to make this whole thing out of how there was so much drama about me leaving the show, about how Lauren was pissed. It's all good. I.
Clearly, otherwise that, none of that would have happened.
That would not have made it to television if Lauren was pissed at me. Whatever. Fucking idiots, including, just whatever. It's not, I don't think so.
I'm pissed at Demaw because years ago, they did like a celebrity who's nice, who's naughty list. And they said I was naughty. I'm nice to literally every single person I meet.
Every single person.
I literally, I, I, I, I, I don't know where they got that.
It's, it's TMZ, it's Perez. It's like, it's, it's all the fucking morass.
Oh, I'm ashamed of that mention. Anyway, let's move on.
Anyway, anyway, um, okay, but, uh, uh, uh, the target keeps moving.
But don't you, and do you say that because it's like, it's like the, the, the fervor about the show.
Is like, I obviously think it means that like, it means a really good thing in that we can actually have, because we're always saying the reason why they won't do stuff with like gay stories is because we feel there's an ick factor around gay sex. Right? Like, it feels like outside of the straight male gays in a way that's like too uncomfortable.
There's abject theory shit.
Right. And now it's like, here we are.
Here we are. It's like huge, like literally huge. So I think that's, that's good. But like, I think the fact that we don't exactly necessarily have a finger on their sexuality allows that to be true. Because I think if that's two explicit gay guys, like you had scenes that were just as hot as that in a show that was quote unquote, better than that with fellow travelers and no one said a word. We didn't even.
Like, and those were two out gay guys.
Of course. Yeah. I mean, there's certainly.
Something there. I mean, there's a dialectic in this for sure, where it's like, people are like, "It should only, it should only be in the bedroom." Well, that's like a fucking Republican talking point.
You know what I mean? It's like, okay, let's like, we gotta figure out, like, it lives in the middle of like, they should share everything about their sexuality and their sexual lives in real life, and they should share nothing. It's like, whatever. It's like-
They performed it so well.
It was great.
Like, first of all, Connor's story, mark my words, he will win an Oscar one day.
It's phenomenal.
He is really talented, and I love Hudson's performance, too.
Hudson!
And like, he is the one that makes me really horny.
Oh, it's the nipple.
It honestly is.
He's got very unique nipples.
They're so red.
Very red.
That reminds me of Chad and Michael Murray years ago. Oh-
Where, did he have pepperoni?
They were like appetizer plates.
Yummy.
They were huge, red, and more. They literally were, I remember there was a, there was, cause he was always like, he was so hot, Chad and Michael Murray. He actually was, he was one of those guys when I was like coming of age and like getting into my sexuality that would make me angry. Another one, Justin Timberlake, red nipples. They were red.
Red or pink?
Can we look it up? Matt? Matt is over there. Like, can, can someone just Google Justin Timberlake nipples? They just sold their New York City apartment for 40 million.
That seems like too much.
Feels like trouble in paradise.
Oh, okay. What are we, Dumas?
Yeah, I guess so. Well, they're on the way out. Should we just be Dumas now? Dumas is over.
Dumas is over? Oh, we, we would love to be Dumas. We're not some like anonymous gossip girl you wanna be.
Like, she, I can't stand. But anyway, um, yeah, no, there, there's something about Hudson that just like, brrr, it was like immediately.
Sure, total.
Drives me nuts.
He's so sweet. We wrote, so we wrote two versions of "Beau and a Straight" for the last two shows, one with Josh O'Connor where we do a Challengersman with Lilian.
I can't believe they didn't do this.
We, we, we got-
I read the script. It was a dumb decision.
We got to have him say, it was like, you know, we, we, we got him to say, and he was laughing through the scene. Those are pink. Those are not red.
Oh, this is from No Strings Attached? I know every screen grab.
Oh, of course.
Oh, the Janet Jackson thing keeps popping up if you, if you Google-
I think Hudson's are more red. I think CMM's, Chad Michael Murray's are- I can picture him having red nipples. Hudson's are red. Oh, I can't believe we're talking about his.
It's not, no, it's Friends with Benefits, famously the other one that year. By the way, you've Googled this and it's from Instagram and it's just a fan page's screenshot of this and the caption is this. Justin Timberlake shirtless is one of the best parts of the movie Friends with Benefits. So sexy.
Heart. Um, thank you, Anna. Thank you so much. Um, what was I gonna say?
The heat rivalry of it all. Just like, what I was gonna say was, I don't care that if they're gay or not. They performed it with honesty and they were really committed and they have unbelievable chemistry. I don't care that they don't come out and say what their sexuality is because what's important is the representation that is on the screen.
Like, I think it's becoming a little bit narcissistic for actors to be like, no, it needs to be me that does it. It needs to be me that does it. It needs to be honest. It's just like, it gets to a point sometimes with sexuality. Where I'm like, guys, we're putting the cart before the course a little bit here. Like, we have to make them first. If they don't exist.
Period. Well, my thing is, and I might, this will probably, you know, get some sort of, please write in. Please talk me down from this, y'all, listeners, readers, Katie's, Pup's, Spinal's, Kyle's. I feel like performing sexuality or queerness is like, because queerness is like an internal experience. Like, it's different than like, oh, well, this person ethnically should be played by this ethnic person. That, I totally.
Makes sense to me. I think there's more room to like, I don't know, be like, not necessarily exactly. It's like, well, what's, you know, Ilya's bi, but like, I don't know if Connor's bi, you know, it's like, would it be better if Connor was gay or if Connor was bi? You know what I mean? Like, this is where we start splitting hairs. And so then, so then, so my, my thing is always, it's an interior experience. Therefore, it's okay, but also, you know, this other thing of like. We're not supporting gay creators. Well, I don't know, like, we're perfect examples. It's like anytime we get a press release announcement for something we're working on, people fucking melt down about it.
The ones on gay Twitter who just can't stand that we have anything.
It's fine. It's like-
It is what it is, but like, don't pretend that you're rooting for gay guys.
All the time.
Like, don't pretend you're rooting for gay guys when, like, Bo Nang takes some fucking shit, and it's, "He can't do anything, I-"
Right, exactly. So, that's my, that's my, like, stitched-together take. My other thing about heated rivalry, which I, I go back and forth on, whether I love or if I'm like, huh, is like, this story takes place over, like, seven years. All the needle drops are songs from 2007. All, it's like, "Give me your eyes, I need a sunshine." It's like, why, that's playing in a scene that's happening in, like, 2017? No problem.
There's a little bit of a vibe of Hunting Wives where you can tell it's so, it's a little- By the way, I think both produced by Three Arts.
Love it.
It's just a little cheaply done.
No!
Oh, yeah, you're right. Even, even Francois Arnaud was like, this, all this Miley Cyrus stuff, it's like, we don't have a Miley budget for, like, her to write a song for us.
It's like-
Well, they will now!
They will now.
But I guess what I'm saying is there's something charming about it.
There's something charming about-
Like how we had no budget for the Culture Awards.
Yeah, I mean, there's something charming about, like, you know, watching this get thrown together, but the thing that rea- and that's why the thing that really makes it work is their chemistry and their performances, and I'm loving them on the press tour.
They're, they're nailing it.
It, it looks fun to me. I'm like, see, it should, that's, I guess, what sells something, is when someone is out there having fun, you know what, like, people have a lot to say about Timothy Chalamet, I think he needs to put his foot on the gas on this, whatever-
You don't think it already is?
No, I mean, it, I'm just saying more-
He's on top of the sphere!
More!
Oh, you're crazy. You know he was nerv- he took a beta blocker.
Oh, yeah.
That's, that's an anxious boy.
Beta blockers are life-saving tools.
This is, this is one of the greatest inventions in modern mankind.
Thank you, propanol.
Propanol.
Propanol. That's tough. They, they could have named that better. That's because that's giving me, that's getting my heart rate up.
Did you ever watch, I guess, I don't know, what else to say about heated rivalry? It rocked.
It rocked.
I loved, I, I, I was late to it because I was like, there's no way. And then I felt the way everyone else felt. I talked to someone and you know what they said?
They said heated rivalry gave me everything I was expecting from Life of a Showgirl.
And I was like, I was like, I don't know this necessarily tracks, but then he was like, let me explain. And by the way, I like Life of a Showgirl, and if you think I'm lying, come to me on the streets. Come to me on the streets and tell me that you think I'm lying and I'll show you my recently played.
I covered Elizabeth Taylor on the road.
And you said that I'm in my Life of a Showgirl era.
You are in your Life of a Showgirl era. I can't say.
That's interesting. I'm dating a football player. No, just kidding.
I can't say what era I'm in. Um, but anyway, um.
This person telling you that?
Oh, they were like, it's a pop album. They're like, it has all those little bursts and it's like fun and it feels like, like, like, like it's gonna, like, it just feels like, um, non-caloric in the way that.
But then by the end you're like, wow, surprised I feel full. You know what I mean?
Surprised, oh, I felt very full because I was like, yeah, because like for the first, the first three episodes was like, okay, this is, I'm along for the ride, but I'm not sure what to track. And then episode five, I was like, this is cinema.
Oh, no, episode, at the end of episode five, I was like, well, I'm coming to the cottage. I was like, huh. And I was like, wait, and then you know, it's one of the highest rated episodes on IMDb like ever. It's up there with like white caps from The Sopranos, Gennaro Sotano.
Love that, Gennaro Sotano. I love that.
You have made a fool of me for years with these whores. I'm Carmella.
You're Carmella. You are Carmella. Oh my god.
You're Dr. Melfi. Are you laughing? Because you know it's true.
She's, she's an icon.
A full-blown.
It's the glasses.
It's the glasses. It's the brocco of it all.
Right, right, right. Um, um, um, wait. The cottage. You, this is, this is the thing. My fantasy is a lake house in Ontario.
I know you've been saying that.
I can't believe, I can't believe.
You can still do it.
I can still do it.
He feels like he can't do it anymore. He's like, oh, now that the cottage is in culture, I can't have the cottage.
Now that, now that an Asian guy has a cottage in Ontario, I can't do it. Um, no, I understand what they're saying now about it being life of a showgirl because it is, um, it is giving you a sense of safety.
Because this is the thing about like the no conflict thing. I'm not being snarky, by the way. I'm just saying like, I love the fact that it's like, ah, here's a problem. My dad's homophobic. Two scenes later, he's dead. Ah, here's a problem. Spoiler alert, sorry. Here's a problem. My parents aren't, aren't gonna be okay with the fact that I'm gay. Two scenes later, we love that you're gay.
You're perfect. We love that you're gay.
We love that you're gay.
Why didn't you text me back? No problem. Two scenes later, it's like they're in love.
It honestly was like as bad as their communication was. Oh, this is why I wanted to say it surprised me so much and why I loved it because you know what it reminded me of? One of my favorite movies, Love and Basketball.
Oh, yes, you've said this.
It reminded me so much of Love and Basketball, which is a classic, and it's actually Criterion. And if you didn't know, now you know.
Worthwhile.
Gina Prince-Bife would, an underrated director, by the way, um, who's gone on to do so many more things since then. She actually did The Woman King.
So good.
And, um, but, but what I loved about it was like the time lapse really helped the romance. The fact that it was like sports, but not really.
Right, right.
Like they were passionate about something else and also each other.
The fact that it was like will they, won't they over the years, like believably felt like you were growing alongside them, but it moved quickly. You know what I mean? Like I just like, and it was very sexy. Like.
L and B.
I think it would have felt weird if it was like chaste sexuality in this gay show because gay guys just be, we just fuck.
And they're athletes.
Yeah, exactly.
They're, they're healthy motherfuckers.
No, that ass was made to thrust. Like, it wasn't made to like, you're not gonna see just like, it's this is not the age of innocence.
Like, gay guys fuck, gay athletes fuck.
Period.
Hopefully they fuck us in Milan.
Have you thought about that?
Now, other things.
Did you ever watch the End of an Era documentary?
I need to. Oh my god.
Six episodes, did each one twice. Unapologetic.
Unapologetic. Um, no, but I love that we have committed to film the tortured poet's portion of the era story.
Here's what I love about the documentary, because I do think it wants you to know a few things.
It, it, it wants to remind you, she's brilliant.
And I think it does do that. Like, there's scenes of her playing guitar, like rehearsing her, like, um, and on the piano, like rehearsing her surprise songs and everything and like, you, you do see how it really, every element of that like was her vision. She truly is in control of it like. So I think like, after all of the discourse about her, the, the documentary wants you to know she is a talent.
Can we put that to rest?
Yeah, there's the, the weird thing where when Life of a Shill Girl came out and some people took umbrage, um, with a lot of the lyrics, that she's like not a good writer, I think is, is truly silly. Even, I, I, I actually do think that people have Taylor Swift derangement syndrome.
Well, they have a, a derangement syndrome and they have like an amnesia.
Back in the day, like, everyone had everything to say because the, the, the, the whole media thing, there's a reason why reputation exists, right?
Exactly.
And it's because there was a widespread like.
Notion that she was like.
Terrible.
And like.
And then she, there was like, you know, whatever, like quote unquote, the receipts to prove that. And then she genuinely like fought back from like whatever hell she was in to do this. But she's able to do that because she is that talented. So there's that. The documentary also wants you to know that.
It's not about money.
Like, there's a part where Andrea Swift is like, you know, it's always just been about her sharing her music and doing that and et cetera. And I think that might be the part that's tough for people to buy.
Especially because of like, you know, just, just like people's assessment of her and, and the story about how much money she's worth and how much money the tour makes and the variance of it all, et cetera. But you, you can leave the documentary thinking like, you know what? This is an extremely generative person. And because she's generating a lot, she sells a lot.
And she's also like meaningfully diverting a lot of those funds to like the people who make that tour happen.
Right. And so I think that that's obviously a focus of it as well. And I think finally they want you to know that her values are liberal. There's a lot in the documentary about her dancers. She really puts a lot of the spotlight on her dancers and the highlight on her dancers and how gender is not a thing on stage. Like one of the dancers, one of the male dancers, his dream is to dance Ready For It. But Ready For It is like an all-girl number. And the arc of the episode is him getting to do it because she allows him to do it. And he fucking crushes and you know, you, you then look at the stage and you think of the show and you're like, oh wow, I never thought that that person would be wearing that or shouldn't be acting like this, et cetera.
Like it really is like a pretty lovely display of diversity in that respect, in all respects. So I think in terms of all that stuff, like it's super successful. And you get the, I think, very cool stuff, which is watching them record their albums, which I love, I can't see enough of Ariana do.
Yes, yes, yes, or, or anybody.
Taylor's great to watch and I, I have such an appreciation of her. Watching Ariana is like something different because like I just, I, I think she's truly a genius in the studio, the way she comes, her own vocals and stuff. I would kill, I would pay to be a fly on the wall, just watch her in the studio for a day. Like.
She'd let you. I, to answer your question, I think Eternal Sunshine is her best produced album.
Because it was like-
It was, it was, um, it was, uh, uh, uh, Max and her and, um, Ilya.
When are we going to the tour?
We're going.
I guess we're going. New York?
Barclays, July.
Is it Barclays?
She's doing Barclays and MSG, I think.
Okay, that's chic.
I, I wonder how that's like, but I've seen that happen before. People do Barclays and MSG.
Um, yeah, we'll do that.
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Yeah, like when you order chicken fingers, you don't get fingers, you get mystery nuggets.
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Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
Should we talk about, um...
Let's see, what else?
Nicki Minaj?
I'm gonna cop to something.
I'm gonna cop to something. So when that happened with Turning Point.
You thought it was AI?
No, I knew it was her.
By the way, anyone being like, Nikki, we lost her. She's been gone.
She's been gone.
She's been gone. And the writing was on the wall for this because the fact is Nikki Minaj was kicked out of mainstream culture because she's married to a sex offender, unrepentant. She allegedly, allegedly was intimidating his victims from like saying anything, doing anything, whatever that's alleged. And she was picking fights with everyone in music and it was out of pocket and she was obviously a bully and unwell. So that's why she went to Turning Point because she needed an audience at all. She probably wants like, you know, something out of the president too at some point, but like she clearly didn't believe one word of what she was saying. That was the most inauthentic thing I've ever fucking seen.
Or maybe she does now because like it's being validated.
I don't, I don't, I think she's like gone, gone.
The whole thing of like, it's okay to be a boy.
Whatever.
I was like, you're saying this to be mean spirited because you feel like butthurt and disappointed that the people who made your career now take umbrage with the bullshit that you're doing and so you're railing against them. You don't actually believe that. But anyway, fuck her. But I will say, because I knew she was gone forever, the day after, I took my moment to listen to her music for the last time.
And what did you think?
It's sad.
It's sad, but you know, it's, there are, there are others, there will be others.
I said goodbye.
You said goodbye.
I said goodbye and then I streamed him I the drama and I watched Cardi be amazing.
On Drag Race.
So good. Yeah, I have nothing else to add. I was just like, I was just, it was, it was, it was all over my FYP and I was just like.
Well, of course.
Right. I was like, uh huh.
It was ridiculous. Everything about, everything going on with the GOP right now is ridiculous. Obviously it's been that way, but I'm loving watching them fall apart. And I do think that's what's happening.
What else? Housewives, I.
What do you think of the Meredith of it all on Salt Lake?
I don't count her out.
I definitely don't count her out, but what do? Something is fishy about it to me.
What part? Like the fact that she's being like pushed out?
Sure, this is the case.
I don't see, I don't get what the case is.
Well, I think what they're trying to say is that she's got an alcohol or drug problem. Like Mary being like, I see it. Like, you know what I mean? Like.
Right. I, I don't know.
I guess like.
Do you feel as viewers, we are seeing what they are claiming they're seeing?
Well, I think we are not seeing the flight, the flight footage, which I guess is like.
I texted Andy about it. I was like, does it exist? He said, no, we would have shown it.
That's so wild.
By the way, just to make this explicitly clear.
Oh, God.
I have never had sex with Andy Cohen. I will never have sex with Andy Cohen. At one point I was kind of wanted to in the very, very, very beginning. But if we were gonna have fucked, it would have happened by now, probably many times. If you ever see me talking to Andy in a way that would suggest we've had sex, it's because we are flirting to, because it's funny. He is a friend. He is now our boss. That's what the extent of it.
And if you're gonna make fucking content about this, like get this person's fucking name right.
Yeah, you, that one girl called me Matt Fraser, which obviously like I think it was a mistake. But I sometimes think that straight women just need to stop and remember they are straight women before they talk about the way that gay guys are being.
You know what I mean? Before you talk about the way gay guys are being, understand like there might be something else there. Like, and of course it is like loose between gay men. We just don't think about this stuff as much as you guys are. But Andy and I are having fun. We do owe him a book. That's why he said that to us. That's why I said we were gonna have time to work on it soon. Thinly veiled allusion to the fact that we now have a lot more time to work on it. Like, there is no drama or tension between Andy Cohen and I. Nothing.
I don't know about the Meredith of it all. Anyway, we love her. We love the Marxists.
Love, and I just, but I'm just like, I just wish I was seeing.
What they're seeing.
Totally. I am, I did start watching The Cult of the Real Housewives, the Miriam Cosby doc.
What was, what was going on?
I'm like, this is not well made. No, no, I'm just like, whatever case you're trying to make here, it's like, okay, but.
All those documentaries are such bullshit.
I know, but it's also like, they use a lot of like, our content, also like, a lot of our, a lot of friends who like make.
Our content?
They do like, take clips of like, us like, getting Charlie XCX to talk about Miriam Cosby and how much she loves her, like.
Really?
It's like, oh, well, you didn't clear that with us, not that they like, had to legally. But I'm like, oh, like, it just, I don't know, it just kind of seems, this is not to like, minimize any of the allegations, it's just like.
Persuasive stuff used to mean something.
Right. Oh, well, not anymore. Nothing means anything anymore. I open my algorithm now and it's like, it's all AI, and I don't want it. And I'm like, how would anyone coming into the world be able to believe anything at this point? And I think the AI conversation is also so boring.
Right. Yeah. At this point, what feels like, ugh, like eye roll is like, it's inevitable. It's like, right, but also like, I don't think the appetite for this is linearly gonna grow, like.
No, no, it's, people, I think, I think the vast majority of people have no appetite for it. But this idea, like, it's coming and you have to deal with it, is making people like, sort of resign to the fact. And I just don't want people to, you, like, I guess, like, you can resign to learning, I guess, how to use AI well or correctly. But what I don't like are people resigning themselves to giving up their creativity or their autonomy in terms of like, finding information or creating stuff. Like, that to me is.
Bad, and I think it's confusing when you're like, it's here, get used to it.
What does that, what does get used to it mean?
It's just like, it's like an energy that people have about it.
But those are the same people who are like, having casual conversations with ChatGPT being like, what's your, how are you? It's like, what are you, what are you doing?
Just killed some penguins. There's gonna be way less penguins for Bowen to see.
And I wanna see them.
He wants to see them bad. This is the trip of a lifetime.
Yes. You know, you know what I think you might be ready for? Movie wise, not to go back to that conversation. Yes, weapons.
Someone washed in on a plane in front of me, which you know is my fucking nightmare.
No, well then, yeah. I think you, you might be ready for sentimental value. It's not like completely.
Of course I am.
Have you, have you seen it yet?
It's not like completely what?
It's not like completely devastating the way that Hamnet allegedly is.
Oh, yeah. I heard Catherine's great in it.
Catherine is so funny in a Catherine, you can tell that Yokim loves her.
I just saw Catherine, we just saw Catherine at Yokim's wedding and I was like, oh, Catherine.
What a great, she's so funny in The Running Man.
She's been booking!
She's, I'm, we're, we're thrilled. Fucking love that bitch.
I'm trying to think like what else like there has been. Does any music come out?
December, January is always a tough time.
Yeah, well, we didn't really ever get a chance to talk about Lily Allen. We like it as much as everyone else.
It's fucking great. And then there was also.
What else?
Well, next week, Robin will be here. And that's gonna be very exciting. And, um.
And that's, that's that.
That's that. So I guess it's time for I Don't Think So Honey.
This is the part where we do I Don't Think So Honey. It's our 60 second segment where we rant, rail, rave, and turn the party ultimately.
And by turn the party, we mean hopefully change hearts and minds about this thing and culture that we just think needs.
I think I will.
Yeah, I do too.
Okay, great.
I hope so anyway.
I'm sure you will. This is Matt Rogers, and I don't think so many his time starts now.
I don't think so, honey. Gavin Newsom, if you're gonna run for president, you need vocal surgery.
You need to remove the polyps on your vocal cords. Listening to you is a nightmare. And I have a feeling you're gonna be talking a lot. I don't necessarily want that. I don't think we will win with him. But just go to LA, ask people how they feel being there. But anyway, I do think that while there's a lot of crises in the world.
Thirty seconds.
The number one, one actionable thing that Gavin Newsom can do right now is text to Anna Guthrie and get whoever just did her vocal surgery. She just had the polyp surgery. You're gonna need to be silent for about six weeks afterwards. But don't worry, you can still tweet.
Fifteen seconds.
You can still dunk on Trump, which is apparently something that people still think is gonna like win. And not speaking directly, actionably to people and their concerns, like say Bernie Sanders does, who is the only durable remaining politician over the last decade that's been like consistent and is still around in a meaningful way. Take notes, maybe. But in the meantime, I need to stop hearing your voice as it is.
That's one minute. Get vocal surgery and finish the damn 405.
No, he won't do that.
Why not?
Nothing will happen in California.
Because he's too busy. He's busy doing other shit. And then I get calls from council people who are running in LA. And I tell them exactly what I fucking feel. And they're like, oh, well, it's just hard because this. And I'm like, then talk to Big Boy.
Talk to Big Boy.
Talk to Big Boy and get him to fucking fix California. Cause it's never been worse.
No, it's.
So you think you're gonna be the governor of California with that hair and that ex-girlfriend of Kimberly Guilfoyle and that voice and that podcast with the Steve Bannon feature? Just get Nicki Minaj at this point.
I forgot about that.
No, it's a mess. And I think that because he thinks he can like troll Trump or whatever.
And that people know who he is because he makes a fucking spectacle of himself, that he's gonna be the one to lead us forward.
Let's run Bernie again.
Bernie is the only politician.
No, it's the only one.
What he feels, and I do mean the only one.
Bernie, come on Last Culture.
No, absolutely.
He's the only person who it's actually no bullshit.
This is, this is another thing about, um, early days Last Culture that I regret is being a Hillary stan.
I don't regret it because I think we were trying really hard to just win.
I know, but I feel so silly.
I, here's what I'll say, the president should, I believe the president should have been Elizabeth Warren.
You, you and many, many of the, of the smart Brooklyn gays are aligned in this.
I, I'm sure we all like, share like a certain like ideology about all this. But the fact is like, the reason we were Hillary stans is because at the time, like the Bernie bro thing. Remember, you remember 2016?
I remember.
Like, it was like, it got a little thick there with like, the way people were talking on the Bernie side. And it was misogynistic and it was tough. And I think at the time, there was a very girl bossy, like Obama core-ish, like, hey, don't talk like that. We're gonna crash the glass ceiling, girl.
And.
I pull my hair back, check my nails. It was a very that. And so I don't, I don't, I don't look back in regrets because we were part of the culture we were part of. Should we have listened to the populist message all along? Is that ultimately what would work for them? Yes. It's not gonna be Gavin Newsom. And when any time a politician is making it too obviously about themselves, I'm already done. And don't waste your money sending to Jasmine Crockett. Do not do it.
I, I must agree.
Don't do it. Don't, you're gonna waste your money. Take it from someone who sent Sarah Gideon like a ton of money in Maine. Like, just don't do it. Don't waste your money. Don't do it.
It's hard enough to come by. Another thing, I, I remember 2016 well. I was reminded of it in heated rivalry. That was the year that Boston won, I don't know.
Um, hard to keep track of the sports.
And by the way, I am not being like fatalist about the Democrats chances.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm just saying, they are giving us a wide open opportunity here. Let's not flop by putting up what they said, what everyone said they hated in the beginning, which is an establishment like California Democrat. Like, it doesn't work.
Who is doing it in the same way that like, they've all been doing it where it's always failed, where it's like, like Colbert was asking point blank, like, will you run for president? He's like, that's not my focus right now.
And by the way, that is a version of his voice that's like, sounds like crystal clear.
I mean, get a fucking surgeon.
It's just, it's so sick. And how come, who is not telling him this?
You, what if you get hired to be part of?
I should be his Rahm Emanuel. I would get him together. What you guys don't know is I'm Rahm Emanuel. In like a cunty gay way.
Ooh. And then you're gonna be mayor of Chicago? Is he mayor?
I think he, he was mayor of, he was, I don't fucking know. I know he was like Obama's chief of staff, right? And he was like known as being like a real dick, but like he got shit done. Chief of staff is such an interesting position.
I love it.
Did you read that Suzy Wiles article?
All that was tea.
I'm, I've been in my politics best.
I am, see, this is me, like, I'm, I'm getting off my spaceship and I'm like, I am ready to touch things in the world that I've been away from. Does that make sense? Okay.
Yes. Let me just qualify the Jasmine Crockett thing. She's not gonna win a senate seat in Texas, you guys. Like, if, if Beto O'Rourke couldn't do it, like Jasmine Crockett is not gonna do it. She isn't, and it's the, it's nothing against her. It's just that she is a politician and that she is like, you know, like, very well defined already. And I think, it's my opinion that we are gonna need someone who is less defined at this moment.
That then rises up, like, I'm interested in this Talarico guy from Texas.
Oh, I don't know him.
I'm just interested in him. You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, I haven't seen him before. It would be hard for them to define him as anything other than what he is, which is like a rising Democratic politician from someplace like Texas, who is like, yes, speaking a little bit to the middle, but at least he's someone that, like, we can't define already. You know what I mean? Like Gavin Newsom is defined.
I believe Jasmine Crockett is defined.
Like, I'm just trying to win here, and I really feel differently than we did in 2016. Like, the way to win now is to, like, go with the energy.
I did just get a text from the people who helped me write her into a sketch.
Who?
Trisha Paytas is mulling a run for Congress. I think I'm gonna say, as, as, as, I feel like, Trisha, you don't have to do it. Just, you're, you're, don't worry about it.
Who told you this?
I'm seeing on Twitter.
That Trisha Paytas is mulling over-
The latest in California politics, Trisha Paytas is mulling a run for Congress, lives in Westlake Village, so would put her in collision course with Julia Brownlee, unless she is, oh, I have my block on my Twitter. But she, Trisha, you don't have to do that. Don't have to do that. Authenticity-
I have so many questions about Trisha.
We're back to being authentic. We're back to being authentic.
Oh, god, yeah.
They said we were done.
And now, next week-
They being Tina.
Next week, Robin's gonna come in and they're gonna be like, why are they kissing Robin's ass? Here's why we're kissing Robin's ass. Because she's a pop culture icon. And I can say, with, already, we're gonna kiss her ass.
And it's gonna be okay.
It's gonna be great!
It's still gonna be a-
It's gonna taste like cherry.
It's gonna be a free show with 20 minutes of ads that you can fast-forward through.
But by the way, we apologize about the ads, and we've made changes.
We're figuring that out. Also-
Lost Culture is just so, it's all just them talking to celebrities.
We've had like friends on the show, like the, like all, like all of Q4.
No, this is what I'm saying, it's like, it's like all the criticism, I'm like, but what about this?
It's easily disproven.
I, like, it's like, we'll have, I don't care.
Guys, let us do, like, let us do the show our way, okay?
And it's, yeah, I mean, let us cook and also like, it's, it's just that we're like, i- if we're not doing it exactly like this, it's just because we wanted to make sure that, that the show was released and we had a great episode.
We weren't just gonna go off in December, like-
Oh, the, my, my least favorite thing is when they dragged us for doing three episodes in one day. They were like, I can't believe they would ever do three episodes in one day. You mean work for eight hours straight?
Yeah, I'm sorry, that doesn't-
You're crazy.
-jive with your ethics. I don't understand why that's an issue.
And then they go, well, Matt should have at least changed his shirt.
Fuck off.
I was like, I put on a different overshirt, you asshole. Leave me alone, or else.
Or else, this is the last ti- this is truly, this is the last-
Or else.
The last time all year we're gonna be addressing this.
No, because this, and this has been so cathartic. This actually is called Exit Interview, parentheses, the cathartic episode. Because I am never looking at this again, and I swear to God, mark my words. Wait, we should really do this.
Mark my words.
We should get brick.
I, I have two bricks at my house. And there's also Opal, which I love.
What's Opalite?
Um, it's an app that blocks things for you, but if you wanna, you know, if you wanna take a break, you can take a break throughout the day, which I do, or it'll ask you if you're sure you wanna take a break, and then it'll present you, if you want, like, a math puzzle, or a puzzle that'll give you a quick dopamine hit, and then it's like, so you got your dopamine hit, do you still wanna take a break? It's, it's cute, it's like-
It's, it's really getting in the way of like, you like, mindlessly scrolling.
And they-
Which I would love to do less of.
Oh, absolutely.
Wouldn't we all?
I think, but I think there's like a, I think there's like a thing now where it's like, this is again, like the commenter survivorship thing, it's like, anyone who like, has some sense of like, self-protection is like-
Weaning off of the phone and in their own meaningful way.
I mean, in an era when so much is changing anyway, why not change this one?
Like.
I just remember the day when like I left Facebook to sort of cold turkey and I I quit smoking cold turkey.
You did, huh?
I guess this is my thing like.
Oh, yeah, tell this. I think this is good.
I got a suite at the Chelsea Hotel.
You do. That's like a customary thing you do at the end of the season.
I've done it once before with Celeste and Sarah, but I got it for myself and like I had friends over and we we had fun. And then I just had like a two days to myself at the Chelsea Hotel and then they got me the balcony suite.
Which is like the only sort of balcony that like.
Iconic.
Looks the Hotel Chelsea sign. And so then like someone left like a pack of cigarettes. And I like smoked, I smoked one on the balcony and then I like looked up like right before I was gonna check out and I was like, this would be a chic place to just quit smoking. After I finished SNL, I'm at the Hotel Chelsea, I'm on the balcony. This is the last one. I've since had like cigarettes. I'm just never buying my own again. But no, no, no, no.
I quit cold turkey. I've since had several.
No, no, no. So it's not cold turkey, but it's like I'm never gonna buy my own cigarettes ever again. That is my thing. And I get to, I get to have one like if I've like had a couple of drinks.
You remember the deal we made years ago.
If I would quit smoking if you got, if you were in therapy and now you are, it's so, it's so grossly inequitable that I am ready to be honest.
I've just seen unfortunately up close.
What happens when you don't?
What's happened when um smoking and vaping gets out of hand.
And I would tell everyone that as a person that's had a firsthand account, do not fuck with it. And it is, it has nothing to do with anything but the smoking and the vaping that I'm talking about. And and I promise you, your life will be better without it.
100%.
Because think about it. Think about vaping. Think about how dumb it is. Not that you vape, but like, it's you sucking on a machine. Who here does it? Show yourself.
You're all very afraid to come forward.
A 14 year old was doing it next to me on the train. I was like, don't do it on the train.
Just tell him he'll be dead by 20.
What? He will. He will.
Anyway.
If you're vaping, you're gonna be dead.
I've got, I haven't, I don't think so, honey.
Of course you do.
Let's, we've been here two hours. Let's, let's.
Should we, should we split the episode into two? No.
No, no.
No, it's just one. All right. This is a big a shot of ganza. This is Bowen Yang's. I always go to the compass when I mean to go to the timer.
That's okay.
This is Bowen Yang's. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now.
I don't think so, honey. Fries for the table. This is a myth. That it's something that everyone loves. Think about it. Everyone's like, yes, fries for the table. Does it ever get fucking finished? It's a huge waste. You get little potato confetti sitting in a fucking cone at the end of the night. No one's touching it after five minutes. It's completely gone. You have a full cup of aioli there, because guess what? Aioli also fucking sucks. No one in the Western Hemisphere cares for it.
Aioli contains multitudes. 30 seconds.
It's ketchup all the way. Don't even bother with the aioli, with the mayonnaise. This is, we're in, we're in America. As, as unpatriotic as I might be right now, I still care about that.
With our Olympics podcast.
Ketchup over mayo and aioli. Um, fries for the table, it's a, it's a lie. It's like, it's, it's, we all think we're all on board for it. And then no one fucking touches it by the end.
Five seconds.
I don't know. Let's just get real. Let's get real in 2026, okay? Fries for the table. It's, it's just a myth. No one cares.
That's one minute. What's, what, I, I.
Ask me anything.
I will. I'm just gathering my thoughts. What are you talking about?
It is a fantasy. It is, it is in theory.
Some of the best films are.
Yes, but in theory, fries for the table makes total sense, right? Oh, everyone's gonna nibble on fries. No one's touching it within five minutes.
Can I ask you a question?
Of it hitting the table, no one is touching the fries after five minutes. Everyone's like, ooh, yes, such a good idea. No one gives a shit after five minutes.
Can I ask you a question? But first, can I say one thing?
And it's a rule of culture. Umami, more like, ooh daddy. That's rule of culture number three.
Umami, more like, ooh daddy.
I say that because ketchup is umami. What about this? Two orders of fries for the table.
No, so waste. I'm saying even one order.
But can I ask you a question? Do you think that? Do you think that the reason why one batch of fries doesn't get?
Everyone's too shy.
Is because everyone's like, oh, I'm not gonna put my hand in the one batch of fries. Whereas if just, if say it's a party of four, right? Instead of one group of fries in the table. Because here's the thing, I think we can all agree that everyone wants fries.
Okay, starting there.
Order your own fries.
No, that's too much.
Cause this, Matt, I'm telling you.
Four orders of fries on the table?
I'm telling you, Matt. I've been.
SNL threw money at you.
I've, shut up. I've bought enough. I've paid for enough tables at the SNL after-party, because that's something we had to do. They still have to do. I've had to pay for so many fries for the tables. I've seen, I've seen it. This is, I'm practically, from experience, talking about how.
You could teach a college seminar on this.
Teach a college seminar on this. A media studies seminar on fries for the table being sort of a societal ideal that never really gets fully enjoyed. That's it. I'm just, I'm just saying, I've seen, I have so many data points about this. Oh, there's another half-full thing of fries.
That was, that was supposed to be for everybody.
I just feel like it would be a shame for there to be no fries.
And I think to everyone, ordering their own fries is too much.
If one person orders their own fries, they're not gonna finish all of them. And then that invites other people at the table to be like, can I have some of your fries, Matt? And you'll be like, of course. And then those get finished.
I would, I guess I would rather that already be an assumed fact, that of course, you can have some of these fries, because they're everyone's fries. Also, maybe you're just not dining with the right people. Also, you said nasty.
Talk about the people I dine with.
I will talk about the people you dine with. I just dined with you the other night.
And how was that experience?
Lovely.
You had some nasty things to say about aioli.
Yeah, I don't care for it. I only care about mayonnaise if it's used to help toast a grilled cheese.
Is aioli mayonnaise? I hadn't really thought about that.
Basically.
Huh.
Yeah, it's like aggy.
Okay. What about Dijon mustard?
I love Dijon mustard.
You're gonna be wishing there was fries on the table to have with some of those.
No, I like Dijon when it's, um, it's in a sandwich.
I like Dijon when it's my last name. Matt Dijon. I love it. Remember when my, remember my first drag name?
Iran Dijon.
The, the, from the Middle East or something?
Middle East. She was spicy and unstable, just like my borders. This was back in the day when you could be a little, you could be a little problematic because no one was listening.
Anna, what, how does that make you feel? She's okay with it.
Inshallah, you're okay with it?
Don't say, "Inshallah."
I'm allowed to say, "Inshallah." Sudi Green told me I could. And then I said it in front of Mitra and she wasn't so sure.
But, "Inshallah," you'll all let me get away with it at home, the readers.
The readers. Well, this was a fantastic episode.
I thought so.
Thanks for getting me to cry, bitch.
I cried too.
We both cried.
This was an emotional roller coaster.
A cathartic release. The cathartic episode.
Exit interview, hashed, not hashed.
Parentheses.
The cathartic episode. No real edits, I think just the pickups that I, you know, had.
I will tell you, I have one edit after we end. And we end every episode with a song.
All the things she said, all the things she said, running through my head, running through my head, running through my head.
Text in if you think we should be Ilya and Connor.
Shane.
Connor is, plays Ilya.
Should we be them probably?
Yes, we will.
But you be the white one.
I'll be the white one.
And I'll be the bottom.
Oh, my God, can you imagine seven years without ever changing your haircut like those boys? Anyway, bye.
Wow, they never did.
Last Cultureist is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeartRadio Podcasts.
Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Executive produced by Anna Hosni and produced by Becca Ramos.
Edited and mixed by Doug Bain.
And our music is by Henry Kamersky.
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She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.
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Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated