#46 Sophie Grégoire Trudeau: Authenticity, Kindness, and Self Love

Television personality, activist, mother, and wife to Canada’s Prime Minister, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau discusses her battle with eating disorders, why nature and art play such a huge role in her life and what unites us as people. Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  And I think that the cult of individualism has deepened that gap between the natural state and the fake state, between life and death, in some ways.

• 0:21Shane Parrish?

  Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish, and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out. You can learn more and stay up to date at fs.blog/podcast. On the show today is Sophie Gregoire Trudeau. For those of you that don't know, Sophie is the wife of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Our conversation, however, has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with living a meaningful life. This is the most intimate interview I've ever done. We talk about the biggest lessons she's learned from her mother, her battle with eating disorders, why nature and art play such a huge role in her life, how she raises a family in the public eye,

• 1:05Shane Parrish?

  gender, and more importantly, what unites us as people. There are moments in this conversation, especially around the role of vulnerability in living a meaningful life, that leave us both with watery eyes and emotional. As you'll see, Sophie's passion for life comes through, and it's contagious. Time to listen and learn.

• 1:28Shane Parrish?

  I want to start with a question that I've always wondered. What's the biggest lesson that your mother taught you?

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  The biggest lesson my mummy taught me.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  I think through her journey, it has been the lesson of self-love.

• 1:51Shane Parrish?

  What does that mean?

• 1:53Speaker 00

  To be able to see yourself as you truly are, and to be able to accept yourself as you truly are. And that is probably the biggest gift I think a human can actually benefit from on all levels. And how you then interact with yourself and therefore with the universe, with humans around you. What does it mean to lead a fully human life? If we're not in contact with our deeper knowledge, who we are as individuals. So I don't think it's a lesson she taught me like, listen Sophie, this is the lesson. I think I took it from her as a child through her own journey. And today I'm a parent and I'm realizing that no matter what we tell our kids, it's all about how we act and how we live. They feed off of it.

• 2:38Shane Parrish?

  What's parenting like for you? You have quite a unique situation.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  Parenting for me is, I would say, the love of my life. Is my priority, is my joy, is my grounds. I'm very close to my kids physically, mentally, psychologically. We discuss a lot, we talk a lot.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  We try to, even when there was frustrations that come along, we talk about them. Very physical, very cuddly, close, closeness, proximity. Lots of time in nature with my kids. When those moments arise in a very chaotic rhythm that our lives are all in. And yes, my life is in a unique context right now. I must say that I pinch myself. And I'm somebody who loves life. I'm an only child and I grew up kind of thinking in my head. And also my parents telling me, hi, you know, just say hi, my name is Sophie, would you like to play? I still have that in me. I still wanna, you know, play with my kids. And that's where I just, I experience deep joy. So it's not something I think about, something I just fully live.

• 3:46Shane Parrish?

  How much harder is that, doing all of this in more of a public spotlight than most families?

• 3:52Speaker 00

  So, yes, the public spotlight is part of our lives, that's, that's true, but it, it's not our lives. And we talk about Daddy's job, being the Prime Minister of, of Canada. And one day he won't be Prime Minister of Canada, he will be somebody else. And who are we? What do we stand for? When nobody's watching, when there's no spotlight, no titles, no important events, no important people or whatever they are around us, who are we? Who are we in our core? I ask myself that question, always checking in. And I think that my kids know that they should be asking themselves that question to actually discover what they're made of. And whether Daddy's in that job or not, who are they? I think that's the most important.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  So when we are exposed, when we do go to a park and people are clapping with balloons or whatever, they, they look back to me sometimes and they're, they'll raise their eyes or roll their eyes back and go, we know, we know, don't get used to this. Because I'm like, one day, nobody's going to be clapping and it's going to be a different life situation and you will adapt because you have enough knowledge and education and, and, and love that you'll be able to adapt. It's my only wish for my kids, really. The rest doesn't belong to me, it belongs to them.

• 5:03Shane Parrish?

  Who are you as a family?

• 5:06Shane Parrish?

  When you think about those values and like who you are when nobody's watching, what does that look like?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  The same person as when everybody's watching. Thank you to the 40s!

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I've never felt like this was taking on a role. It's, it became very organically organized, I would say, even if it's organized chaos, politics, you know, and, and what it, what it entails in some aspects of our lives. But when we started, everything became kind of like a natural extension of what I had already started in my life as a, as a person, as Sophie.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  With, you know, talking about women's issues and giving speeches and there's nothing that I changed from one day to the other because we're in this job. My values are the same, but my surroundings are different and there's security and you know, it's, there's attention and it's intense. But I always go back to my center. I think that's what I have been looking for, for a very long time is how do I go back to my center? How do I actually find peace in my mind and my heart and be able to adapt to every single situation that life will throw at me? I think that's the main goal here.

• 6:20Shane Parrish?

  Is it harder to raise a family, given the circumstances that you're in, do you think?

• 6:24Speaker 00

  You know, I mean, some people would argue that yes, it is harder, but it's my life. So I'm not going to start comparing it. I'm in it. I'm going to start living it fully. And it is treacherous by time, in some, some, some times, and it is very demanding, because there's lots of pressures and lots of demands and lots of requests and lots of work that I want to accomplish. And I do put pressure on myself because about, you know, 20 years ago, when I started in television in Quebec, I was already used to the cameras and all that. That wasn't an issue. So that, all of that is not new. But when there was more attention focused on what I was doing, it was even more meaningful to me, for me

• 7:09Speaker 00

  to be in contact with so many human beings that were telling us, because you're telling your story, we feel that we can tell our story. And that's my story about eating disorders and what I went through in my teenage years and how I'm healed. And I just want to help now. It's my only duty right now is to actually share the love and the knowledge that I got through my experience to be able to help others. So it's my life and I live it fully. I don't want to compare it with any others.

• 7:34Shane Parrish?

  When did you realize you had an eating disorder?

• 7:37Speaker 00

  You know, first of all, I knew exactly what I was suffering from in those years. I was educated. I knew of it. We weren't talking about eating disorders much in those years. And we thought that they must be maybe a capricious moment in a fortunate adolescent life, which is totally a stigma, a taboo and wrong. The truth is that eating disorders, like any other kind of compulsion, are rooted in fear and anxiety. And every single teenage person goes through those phases. We express it differently, but in the brain, the incentive-reward system resembles many other types of addictions. So I was telling myself, "You must stop this. This, why are you doing this?" But it's not that easy.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  It's a compulsion, and your brain is learning how to react and want it. So it's a tough, it was a tough journey, and I healed from it. And I learned in so many ways that this kind of adversity, or whatever your adversity is, and yes, of course, there is worse adversity than others, but you can compare it. Because if one day you decide that you see your adversity as the nastiest, disgusting-looking, you know, gift wrapped in this nasty paper, you'll know that inside it is a gift. And that it's a gift for breaking open and looking inside. And learning that self-love is possible, and that you can offer it to the world.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  And I think that is a healing path for peace and more justice, because it completely changes the way that you perceive yourself and other human beings. And everywhere I go in this life, at the corner of the street, or at the end of the world, on a trip, I do not, not only do I not see differences, I don't feel differences, until somebody, you know, talks about them or wants to make them something that separates us as human beings, which I think is not the right path for more peace on this planet. So it taught me how to live differently with myself and with others. And I think that I truly, I'm curious about others' journeys. I want to know.

• 9:42Shane Parrish?

  What were you scared of? You said that most eating disorders are a result of fear.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  You know, when you go back to those days, like when I'm asked, "When did you, you know, stop suffering from eating disorders?" When you're in it, you don't think about that stuff, and you don't write the date down. They are many reasons why I had anxiety. I think it's, you know, teenage angst. I was an only child, so whether my parents gave me love, because they did, you feel pressures in other ways, you know, that siblings can share and can talk about. I couldn't. So I grew up with a father who was extremely performant.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  And he started from nothing and he, you know, he succeeded in many ways that we can describe as patriarchal in our society. And that put pressure on me as a young girl. I was always part of the boys because I was super sporty and I liked stuff that was a bit scary, you know, from barefooting into skydiving. And I, I really got along well with a gang of boys. And I also had a couple of really good girlfriends, but I was never a gang girl. It was really more about one-on-one. Maybe it's because all I knew because I was an only child. And I think that, you know, mix that up with all the culture that we were brought up in

• 11:13Speaker 00

  as somebody who's 43, born in 1975, where there are still so many paradoxes between the emancipation of women and girls and the barriers that we still face on this planet, whether they are physical or mental. So I think it was kind of a struggle between all that. And I was also someone who was always seeking truth. I wanted to know what was going on inside of me. I want to know what was going on inside of others. I didn't like superficial relationships. I wanted depth. And I think that at that age, depth can be tricky because we're all trying to figure out who we are.

• 11:56Shane Parrish?

  But it's even rare at that age to want depth.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  I know. I don't know where that's from. And you know what? Sometimes I find that it might not belong to me. It might be something just bigger than me. And many times in my life, I've had very, how do you say, serendipitous moments, filled with synchronicity. I've had maybe somebody come into a room and I would have like a flash of, oh, my God, that person is meant to be with that other person. And today they're married with kids. That has happened more than once. So it doesn't really belong to me, that kind of, I would say, deep intuition, right? But it moves me in many ways. I have chills just talking about it.

• 12:37Shane Parrish?

  You're as married to the Prime Minister, I mean, you're in a unique position to see the world differently than most people, not only see more of it. And you mentioned you chose to see similarities. What are the things that you see that most of us don't see?

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Behind the curtain of politics. You know, I was not overly politicized before I met my husband. I had some core values that I believed in as a human being. And I was completely blown away by what I have seen in the past years in politics, by the human beings I have met, who sacrificed their lives, their family lives, their quality of life to serve. And it is very inspiring and at the same time, very frustrating to see that that sometimes some people will want to darken that picture and will, you know, have actions that will make it darker for everybody, but not for long. Because

• 13:36Speaker 00

  I think that going back to the truth, I think it's Churchill who said that, that the truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but there it is in the end. I believe that. I believe that human goodness rises at many moments. And it doesn't mean I'm naive. Quite the contrary. I see the forces at play. And I also see that goodness usually prevails. When you look at the state of the world right now, it's difficult to believe that, because so many people are suffering. But when you do take all the facts together, and whether it's, you know, so many authors are working on this theme right now, as Steven Pinker, The Better Angels of Our Nature, I know you probably read all this stuff,

• 14:19Speaker 00

  but there are so many researchers and scientists too, looking at data and evidence showing us that in our daily lives, there is less violence than there was before. There is positive thoughts and spirit that are moving this humanity forward. And I'm, I believe that. It doesn't mean that the negative forces are not strong. They're probably going to get stronger. This means that we need to be as organized, as human beings who want peace and justice, as the other part of our own lives where it's not working out as well. So I think that the one thing I have seen, and that I would love for people, everybody to see, is what it's really like in politics. It's not glamorous. And if you see me, for example, in a couple of shots during the year,

• 15:03Speaker 00

  in heels and a dress, because that's the dress code for the event, well, good, but that does not reflect my life or what we're doing.

• 15:12Shane Parrish?

  I want to talk a little bit about that. We were talking a little bit before the podcast started about the Photoshop, sort of like generation and Instagram, and why people choose to, what's your take on why people choose to accentuate these moments in their lives that are non-representative of their broader lives? And what do you think the impact is?

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a deep question. I think that we all crave love and attention. We all want to be understood and cared for. And that's how a baby comes into the world. And I'm a mother now, and I always felt like I've, I've had this maternal intuition of caring. And I want other people to thrive. I want other people to succeed. But I see that in a world where, in a, in a culture of individualism, where we have been taught that we were never enough, and where we have been shown visually, models, quote unquote, people or, or, or concepts of perfection, of obsession with youth.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  We are denying who we are as mortals, as human beings, as our condition per se, and how we come into this world. The flower grows and it dies and you know, it's

• 16:27Speaker 02

  The circle of life.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  That's a life cycle. It's kind of like we're denying that in some ways. And I think that the cult of individualism has deepened that gap between the natural state and the fake state, between life and death in some ways. Ageism, thinking about that gap between young people and older people. How do we see older people? What are we taught about them when we grow up? Where is that wise man or woman who should be transferring us her or his wisdom? Is that how we really live? I mean, in many indigenous communities, that's how they live and and we have so much to learn about that. Because I think that as we are getting older, very slowly, and when we are youth obsessed,

• 17:12Speaker 00

  we are losing spirit and wisdom and intelligence if we focus on that youth obsessively. And when, you know, half of the planet is not eating adequately to be healthy. And we're looking at ourselves in the mirrors to to think how we're going to fix this sagging under chin or whatever it is lines. What are we doing? What are we actually showing of who we are? And it's it's a current, it's a strong current. It's normal. It's like we've normalized this obsession with our non-condition. I try to go back to that as much as possible.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  We're pulled in so many different directions that it's tough for especially young people to find their center. A lot of people say, just be yourself.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 18:05Speaker 00

  What does that mean to be yourself? It's it's a great concept, makes me happy to hear it. But how does that articulate in our daily lives? And when I speak with young people, I'm always so inspired by what they tell me. And I always try to invite them to think about this and not only young people, but also adults. When you left this morning or last night, when nobody was looking, when you were alone in your bedroom or in your bath or whatever it is, we we get quiet cut time. And mothers of three here or any kid or kids. We all know that's very rare to have quiet time. But when we do have quiet time, as men, as women, as girls, as boys, how do we talk to ourselves? How would we feel? Are we kind, compassionate with ourselves? Or are we like, ugh, never good enough, you know? That person has more, why not me?

• 18:51Speaker 00

  It's like we're taught to believe that. We're taught to think that. Therefore, the brain kind of processes these messages and stays there because it almost becomes a comfort zone when it's totally not comfortable. And when you actually ask yourself, does this make me happy? Not a lot of people will say yes. And I think we live in an era where it's time to actually speak our truth and break open and open our hearts and say, how do you feel? Tell me the truth. Let's stop putting our heads into the sand and let's talk about the real stuff.

• 19:21Shane Parrish?

  You sound like somebody who's gone through negative self-talk, perhaps with the eating disorder to maybe changing that vocabulary. What was the process for doing that? How did you go about doing that?

• 19:31Speaker 00

  I think it's like everybody's process. I don't think any human being doesn't go through negative thought patterns. I think we're taught it naturally and unnaturally through living in society because we're not, you know, like Thoreau said, living in a house in the woods alone by ourselves. So I think that we learn it through behaviors, through social dynamics. Sometimes our social contracts are not so clear. And I think for myself, I think life, life learned it to me. And I was ready to open up and look at myself truly in real light and see where I suffered and why.

• 20:12Shane Parrish?

  Was that because you were at a low? Like, what caused that moment?

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I was suffering. It was difficult and...

• 20:19Shane Parrish?

  And you had no outlet for talking about this or...

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Thank God I still had sports. That allowed me to, in French, we say relâcher le méchant. It means getting rid of like the negative. But I went through therapy. So deep provoking thought processes and heart opening. I wanted to understand where it was coming from. And yoga, meditation, perspective, maturity, motherhood, everything, everything about life I think you can learn from. And sometimes when the negative arises, because it arises in everybody's lives in different forms, I don't get scared of it, whether it's critiques, you know.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  I try to keep a distance from it and to create...

• 21:12Speaker 00

  The same self-respect and inner love that I have in stillness and happiness and in sorrow. So that I can always go back there. It's my home. That's who I am. That's who everybody is, by the way. This doesn't belong just to me. Everybody has that capacity for inner peace and inner love. And I always tell my kids, you have this home, you have this life, but you should have all of that in a miniature version in your heart. Take it in that grand scheme of things and put it in your heart in a miniature version and take care of it. Cause that's the gift of life. And I'm getting emotional because it really is the gift of life.

• 21:50Shane Parrish?

  I want to go back to something you said about sort of two ends of the continuum between individuals and maybe our responsibilities to other people. And you called it, I believe, the cult of the individual. Can you expand on that? And maybe those roles and how they change?

• 22:06Speaker 00

  You're listening too well.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 22:11Shane Parrish?

  I only have one job.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  No, you know, it's interesting that you put it under that light because even if there is a continuum between the individual and the cult of individuality,

• 22:26Speaker 00

  they're not polar opposites because we cannot have the cult of individuality without the individual. What I mean is that the culture that we have grown up in, let's say in the past, what? 50 years or more has been centered on the

• 22:45Speaker 00

  potential of the individual to grow and to succeed, especially in a capitalist market. So to have opportunity to grow. That definition of success

• 23:00Speaker 00

  has been boxed into a narrow notion.

• 23:03Shane Parrish?

  By society.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  By society, by society flows, by markets, by everything. And, and market forces are very strong. We have to see it as it is. And I think that with time, that idea of success has not contributed to

• 23:22Speaker 00

  potentially allowing us to bloom to our full potential as human beings.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  To collaborate, to respect one another,

• 23:33Speaker 00

  to flourish and being happy without comparing to one another, without thinking of drastic competition.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  And what I see now is that there's a backlash and people, people are thirsty for no BS, sorry, authenticity, truth, connection, intimacy. I think we're all thirsty for that. A baby comes into the world needing that immensely.

• 24:03Shane Parrish?

  That's what connects us.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yes, what else? And we forget, and I'll tell you this, I'm having chills again because when I, if I see somebody who's suffering on the street, for example, with my kids, we'll discuss this, and I'll say, who was he as a baby? What happened along the way? And I think that every single time I see somebody suffer, an adult, where does that suffering come from? And how does it relate to me on, on the continuum? How does it relate to me? How can I relate to that or him or her? And when you start living that way, it's like you feel responsible for one another. If I'm somewhere and somebody gets hurt, I'm gonna try to help, obviously. If a mother is struggling, I will feel for her

• 24:47Speaker 00

  and I will want her to get better and for her child to have an opportunity. And when I put this in the big scheme of things, sometimes I get nervous because I want, I would like to help save everybody. But we can't. What we can do is save ourselves. And for the ones who can't save themselves, we need to create

• 25:07Speaker 00

  what I like to call a tightly knit social net, where people feel safe to fall back and to know that somewhere along the way, there's going to be human arms that are compassionate to catch them. That's what makes me believe that we can make this world better,

• 25:24Speaker 00

  even with all that's happening right now.

• 25:25Shane Parrish?

  A better version of ourselves than this, or the best version of ourselves.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 25:30Shane Parrish?

  When you talk to your kids about the, the suffering that you see, what is the, the lesson that you're trying to, to give them?

• 25:39Speaker 00

  That they can see themselves in the people who don't look like them and who don't live like them.

• 25:44Shane Parrish?

  That that could be you?

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, not only it could be you, yeah, because I mean, bad stuff happens to good people. Yeah, nobody is hidden from or protected from from bad events. So that's that's one thing. And the other thing is, I go back to this, who was that person before all this happened? What's his or her journey? And how can you see yourself through that journey? And the last question is, what can you do to help in your daily life? And for me, it's about baby steps. It's not about grand, grand things.

• 26:17Shane Parrish?

  Big gestures.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, they're great and good if you have the means to do them. And some people do. I actually think that, you know, the richest people of the planet are are in some parts realizing that they can make a big difference with their big money. And a lot of them are taking big actions. Amazing, please continue.

• 26:36Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  But in our daily lives, I think it's the small stuff that makes a difference. Your presence, are you present in your life? We read the newspaper or we don't, we hop on the bus, we're in a rush, we go to work. We don't have time, time is of essence and time is a luxury now. So when do we actually, we have time to be on social media and to look at the messages and what people think of us and how are we favorites, are we not shared or whatever it is? And do we do we take five to 10 minutes to actually breathe and sit down in silence?

• 27:10Shane Parrish?

  It's like we're we're never fully in the moment. We're always in the next moment or always looking to escape the moment that we're in. Do you have any advice on how to be more present?

• 27:20Speaker 00

  I was just gonna say, hey, count me in. You know what I mean? I'm not, I'm no different, but I have cultivated tools because I was interested to know, how does a human being, how can we control our breath? How do we become more present? I want to. That is really my goal, but also my my life and my duty in some ways, my responsibility, I find as a human being is to be present. So I can actually grasp reality as it is and not as I want it to be.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  So breath work that we call pranayama in yoga, meditation, silence, nature. For me, nature is the mother of all. She teaches me so many lessons and to be in silence with her is for me a blessing. And I look for it and I search for it.

• 28:12Shane Parrish?

  Remember, it was for me, my kids helped me actually be more present. And it was hanging around other parents. And I found this really interesting thing where everybody was, when you first have kids, the kids are very much the center point of your life, but then it quickly becomes overwhelming. And it's like,

• 28:29Speaker 00

  You think?

• 28:29Shane Parrish?

  I can't wait until they're out of diapers. And then when they're out of diapers,

• 28:32Speaker 00

  You miss the diaper.

• 28:33Shane Parrish?

  I can't wait until they're in this next stage. And I was always hanging around people like that. And I was like, that's really weird to me because you're always just like, you're anticipating the next phase of your children's lives instead of being present in the phase that you're in. And you'll never be able to come back to this moment with them. So I sort of like resolved that if I ever caught myself thinking like, I can't wait. And there's moments where every parent has.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, yes.

• 28:58Shane Parrish?

  Of course. There's moments where you're definitely like, I can't wait for this to be over. But on the flip side of that, it's really helped me be present, not only with my kids, but outside of my kids and in daily life.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  This is interesting to me because I'm someone who is very inspired by the fact that we're humans and that we're living on planet Earth. I love to sing, paint, dance. I have a very photographic eye. I'm in awe of what I see, whether it's good or bad. I'm curious. Therefore, especially with having kids, I've noticed that that has been enhanced 10 times fold. So we'll be in a fabulous moment where I have chills all over my body and I look at my kids and I can't believe the happiness. And at the same time, I'm already melancholic because I know it's gone.

• 29:51Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 29:54Shane Parrish?

  And then trying to grab on to it takes you out of the moment as well.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  You can't, you can't grab on to it. And attachment is a huge thing that I work on. And that was one of the biggest, I think, lessons of my yoga journey is attachment. We're attached, we're attached to human beings, we're attached to concepts, we're attached to life itself. We're so attached. But then we all end up the same way.

• 30:18Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  And what happens then? So all those attachments, I mean, and I, I, I make a difference between attachment and love, attachment and friendship. There can be deep love and deep friendship without emotional dependence. The attachment for me is the emotional dependence where when we are deprived of something or someone, we can't find our center.

• 30:45Shane Parrish?

  What do you think is the root of emotional dependence? Is it that we don't, we don't fully understand who we are?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  I think that will be different for every single human being on this planet. I think that from the time you're in the womb, from the stress or non-stress you have lived, from the time you're out of the womb, and the love and attention and care or not that you have been exposed to, the relational patterns that you have been exposed to, the capacity for relational agility and the adults that have surrounded you.

• 31:18Shane Parrish?

  What do you mean, relationship agility? I like that term a lot. What does that mean?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  It means, and you know what, this is a topic that I've discussed with a friend of mine who's a Canadian author called Jeff Brown, who is deeply wise, and I'd invite people to, to read. And his wife, actually, is a great author also called Susan Forsythe. And they reflect a lot on the human condition. And relational agility, for me, is the capacity

• 31:45Speaker 00

  To understand yourself in a relational context, therefore, to understand the other. So the more, yes, you just said it, the more knowledge of ourselves that we have, the more capacity we have to adapt to a relationship. I do believe that we are meant to live surrounded. I don't believe we're cavemen who are supposed to be isolated and live alone. I believe that we deeply search for good group dynamics, compassion, strength together. I think we naturally lean towards that. So our role as a society is to encourage those dynamics.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  But as I said, we do live in a very paradoxal times and concepts. So it's not easy to navigate and to swim against a lot of currents.

• 32:42Shane Parrish?

  I want to hone in on a couple of things here and then backtrack a little bit because I want to talk about science and art and come back to nature and your life. But you mentioned love and I'm wondering, is love a choice? Do you choose to love somebody?

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Are you asking me that question? No.

• 33:00Shane Parrish?

  It's not a choice.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  I don't think so. That's a big question.

• 33:03Shane Parrish?

  Let's unpack it.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  We need time. So when you-

• 33:08Shane Parrish?

  I have all day.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  I'm into politics. I don't. No, no, no, I'm not in politics. My husband is in politics. I would say, you know, I said no, but I would say yes and no. So here we go. I think that when a human life comes out of the womb, let's put it as it is, love is needed for that life to go forward. Because in lack of care and love, that to many comes naturally.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  To others doesn't come so naturally. But then you ask your question, were you offered unconditional love? Are we really offered unconditional love? I think that we naturally are born to love and be loved. That is why I believe in the goodness of humanity. Now, if we talk about institutions, marriage, monogamy, couples, relationships, that's different, but you're asking me about love. What kind of love are you talking about? Romantic love? Like, what love?

• 34:08Shane Parrish?

  Let's talk about all different types of love, right? So I like the idea of first exploring sort of like this parental love and the love we have for each other. And then does that change if we transition to relationships? Is love a choice in a relationship? Or is it something that?

• 34:22Speaker 00

  I think relationship is a choice. I don't think you can invent love. I think love invents itself. I think love fades. But wisdom, which for me is love, doesn't have to fade. There are different types of love. So therefore, there are different answers to this question. But the most intuitive love, the one that comes out naturally between human beings, that is not forced or constructed. I think it exists. I think it might be even greater than the relationship.

• 35:03Shane Parrish?

  Do you believe in love at first sight?

• 35:05Speaker 00

  I believe in chemistry at first sight. I believe in a wisdom that you don't know where it comes out from in a moment, but it's there. I believe that the choice is what we make of it and how we decide to make it last. I think that's a choice and it's not easy.

• 35:28Shane Parrish?

  Does that relate to you saying that love fades? And then it's a choice to make it lasting?

• 35:33Speaker 00

  Yes, I think, I think passion fades. I think intuitive, deep intrinsic intuitive love, which encompasses, I think, compassion, empathy, self-love, self-respect. I think that can exist almost on its own. That it's almost greater than who we are.

• 35:49Shane Parrish?

  I like that.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Right? And you can't possess it. You can't think it's yours. And it only, can only exist when you don't possess it, when you actually let it flow and live. And that's a major life lesson because we go back to the concept of attachment. Even attachment to the concept of love can be one.

• 36:08Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to the role of art and science, not only

• 36:14Shane Parrish?

  in our individual lives, but in culture writ large. What do you think?

• 36:20Shane Parrish?

  How do you think about that?

• 36:22Speaker 00

  The relationship between art and science?

• 36:23Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, for the individual and for culture.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  I think that most artists are truth seekers. And not just artists, but the ones who choose to express through their lives their artistry. I think science allows us for truth to be respected. Because at one point, you have to start arguing with the fact, right?

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Of course, some facts can be proven wrong. But I think as we grow as human beings, our science is becoming more and more,

• 37:01Speaker 00

  I think, pinpoint or precise. And we're not even there. We don't even know. It would be completely ignorant to think that we're halfway through or whatever it is. That's fascinating, too. That's another conversation, another podcast. But I think that science can allow us to see truth and our human condition in a more precise light. And therefore, artists can be inspired by truth to share it with the public and with society. And to be responsible for it in a way, because we are. Because truth can be derided and it can be pushed aside. We have to protect it. It's important. And

• 37:43Speaker 00

  that's part of what it means to be free in a democratic society. And it's essential. It's essential to protect the truth.

• 37:52Shane Parrish?

  Do you have a favorite painting?

• 37:54Speaker 00

  A favorite painting?

• 37:55Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  I have many favorite paintings.

• 38:00Shane Parrish?

  Imagine one.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  Does it have to be well known?

• 38:02Shane Parrish?

  No, not at all.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  That's tough because I would say one of my kids' paintings, I paint because I love it. And I started to take acrylic courses because I've never had technique and I love paintings. So I'm starting to get, you know, the experts to teach me the, you know, the technique.

• 38:19Shane Parrish?

  What made you start that?

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Because I've always painted in just in my life because I loved it, because I'm obsessed with what I'm surrounded by and the magic of nature. Usually I'll paint nature. It just fascinates me, the colors, the forms, the shapes, the perspectives. Lauren Harris wrote, and he's the great Canadian painter. He said, "Light has no weight, yet one is lifted on its flood, swept high."

• 38:51Speaker 00

  When I read that, I'm like, okay, I'm not the only crazy person feeling this. And when I paint, it's how I feel. It's like you want to paint from a place in yourself where it's not you, it's just freedom and deep respect and bow towards life.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  And the paintings that come to mind are a lot of the Canadian painters, to be honest, and my kids' paintings. Because they represent our history, past is important,

• 39:24Speaker 00

  present is the most important.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  And they reflect what we have gone through, but they also reflect moments where human beings have been in such presence of beauty or suffering. That this is why art is so important, is that we never cover the truth. We let it rise and shine. And that we're not afraid of it, because what are we so afraid of? That's a question I ask myself often, when there is conflict in within myself or in the world on this planet, we see it, it's awful. What are we so afraid of? I still don't know.

• 40:05Shane Parrish?

  What sort of answers do you hypothesize?

• 40:10Speaker 00

  That we're not lovable enough? That we are not worthy enough? That others can take away from our happiness? That they are a threat?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  For us to become who we are supposed to become?

• 40:30Speaker 00

  This, you cannot dissociate all of this with religions and organized groups. And I believe that if we go back to what is sacred amongst us and that we push away any kind of self-imposed or society-imposed thought process, we could discover truths about ourselves that would hit us so hard that we'd feel almost carried and protected and loved and cared for without having even that person beside us. Think it's greater than that.

• 41:09Shane Parrish?

  I don't think you're crazy at all.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Good. Well, that's reassuring.

• 41:14Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to nature and the role that nature plays in your life. When I was doing prep for this, it comes up almost all the time. Talk to me about not only why you choose to spend so much time in nature with your kids, but what that does for you.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  It heals.

• 41:37Shane Parrish?

  How?

• 41:41Speaker 00

  By being present. I think that nature will and has allowed us to be present as human beings in ways that you can't be as present in other contexts. We live in a country where nature is beyond sublime and large and vast. I'm a spokesperson for Fit Spirit, which is an organization that encourages young girls to continue sports in their teenage years because one out of two Canadian girls will drop sports for many reasons. It's too boyish. They lack the self-esteem to think they're going to thrive, whatever.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  I think that nature allows us, whether it's a walk, it's a hike, it's a jog, it's a canoe, it's a kayaking, it's a water skiing, it's a skiing, it's a skating, whatever it is. And, and God knows that, or the universe knows, whoever, whatever you believe in, that in this country, nature is close to us. Even if you live in the city, we're pretty lucky.

• 42:43Shane Parrish?

  Oh, Ottawa's like phenomenal for this. Most people don't understand that like everything is accessible.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  I know. And whether you have money or not, you can go to the river, you can look at the Canadian geese there, you can, you know, look at the squirrels, you can look at the leaves changing colors. I am in awe all the time of the subtle intelligence of nature,

• 43:08Speaker 00

  which is greater than ours in many ways, but it nourishes us. And not everybody, not everybody has the time to actually go for half an hour hike or walk in nature, you know, during a day. And five minutes could do the trick if we actually encouraged it between ourselves, if companies, institutions, schools, libraries, community centers, families. I think it's about education in a way. It all goes back to that.

• 43:43Shane Parrish?

  It's another part of education, but it's a part that we never think of consciously.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, but most people, if you ask them, you know, after exercising and after being in nature, do you feel worse or better? Like 99% will say better. And I ask that question often because I'm curious to know. So there's like a natural lesson of a natural cycle and natural presence. And we're going back to love, a natural love that is just there, a caring energy where you feel that there is opportunity for things to get better.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  And I think nature makes that even more tangible.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  And that we have it here in this country. So we should really, really celebrate it and get our youth to get out there and have fun and not always want it to be about competing and competition. It's actually just about enjoying and looking and being present and feeling lucky.

• 44:44Shane Parrish?

  What's your favorite season?

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Oh, that's such a tough one because my kids ask me that question all the time. It's too tough for me. I'll tell you why. Because every season for me is another season for another sport.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  I do have a romantic association with fall because it's quiet time, because it's cuddled, you know, by a fireplace if possible, or going for long walks. It's like people slow down for a while in transitional periods.

• 45:09Shane Parrish?

  Just a brief moment.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  For a brief moment.

• 45:11Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Beauty, beauty. Oh, my God, I feel that. That's such an inspiration. So summer is all about the water sports. Fall is about the hikes. Winter is about snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, skiing, skating.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  And spring is about, that's the month.

• 45:32Shane Parrish?

  Hope for summer.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Yes, that's it. That's it. But spring to me is interesting. And we talk about this with the kids because it's not beautiful, the transition. It's not beautiful. That's kind of a lesson because transitions are not always beautiful within ourselves. They're tough and it's muddy out there. It's muddy inside. So I see spring as a time of revelation and life is getting back into its shape and the flowers and everything's starting to grow again. So it's the cycle again that we that we learn to dissociate from, you know, whether you're a woman and it's your natural cycles, your menstrual cycle, the cycle of life, the giving birth. It's like we push that away. It's like, do we actually

• 46:14Speaker 00

  know what birth looks like until we give it? Why, why are we so scared of? Why is sexuality in youth not discussed enough? It should be. Why? Because it's truth. Let's face our truths and not be afraid of our condition. Because it's our only way to evolve and grow if we actually discuss our truths, not hide from them.

• 46:39Shane Parrish?

  Do you think vulnerability prevents us from doing that? Or to what extent is the fear of putting yourself out there and exposing yourself?

• 46:49Speaker 00

  Well, I would switch it around. I think vulnerability is what would allow us to go there.

• 46:55Shane Parrish?

  But do you think it also is what prevents us?

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, in the same way. You're right. Yeah, in a way, because, yeah, vulnerability or lack of, you know, fear of judgment, fear of maybe our own repressed emotions and feelings and desires. We are, you know, beings, human beings with desires, and we come to life with them. And in many ways, we are taught to repress them. And I think that we are much more creative than we are thought to be. And that we teach ourselves that you have to be an artist to be creative. I really don't believe that. I think human relationships can be the most, the deepest exploration of our creativity. It doesn't have to be art.

• 47:38Shane Parrish?

  What do you mean by that?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  I mean that when you want and when you are ready to explore your desires, your thoughts, and how you feel, and you make the choice at one point, or somebody has allowed you to feel safe enough to become vulnerable, and let's go back to that vulnerability, it's a gift. And that gift is of human creativity. Because when we open up, we become creative just by actually accepting what is and what we can do with it. That is an art of creativity. What do we do with the truth? What do we do with it now?

• 48:23Speaker 00

  That can be creative. And it's, it happens in our everyday lives, at the office and how we interact with other people and the decisions that we make as families, as mothers, as dads. I think that all those moments are acts of creativity. And that we should feel like we're much more artistic and we can contribute much more to society's creativity, not just by doing art.

• 48:48Shane Parrish?

  I like that a lot. We're kind of coming up on the end of the interview here, so I want to ask you some rapid fire sort of like type of questions where you can get as deep as you want, but give me your thoughts. So what's the biggest mistake you've ever made? And more importantly, like, how did you recover from that?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Not loving myself enough. Yeah. Having deep respect for...

• 49:10Shane Parrish?

  Does that go back to the eating disorder? Or was this another...

• 49:13Speaker 00

  I mean, you could say eating disorders, you could name anything. It's everyone's struggle in their own ways. So, yeah, the biggest mistake, I think, in a human being's life, and in my life, is, but it's not a mistake. It's my journey. It was my journey. I don't like to see mistakes as mistakes. You know, obviously, maybe I could have been more compassionate to one person, but they're not mistakes.

• 49:37Shane Parrish?

  Mistake is the wrong word.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Right. They're opportunities for growth when you see them as opportunities for growth. And when I've done things that have hurt somebody, for example, I've actually asked myself, holy, you know, what could I have done better? And it hurts. It hurts to know that I have hurt somebody else or was disconnected from myself and thought that for a moment I was important when I'm really not. So, yeah, I really want to...

• 50:02Shane Parrish?

  What do you do in those moments where you've unintentionally hurt somebody, either through ignorance or just lack of thought?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  Honestly, I deal with it right away. I do not hold it in. I like proximity. I like intimacy. I like connection. I look at that person in the eyes, or I will call and I'll say, what's going on? Man, tell me. We got to figure this out. I don't want you to feel this way.

• 50:26Shane Parrish?

  You don't want to bury it.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  No. Do not let linger repressed emotions or negative thoughts. They will only intoxicate your life. And most people want to talk about it. And most people don't want to encourage negativity within themselves or within others. So it's sometimes more simple than one might think.

• 50:47Shane Parrish?

  It's interesting you say, most people would want to talk about it. I don't know, like, is that a male, female thing? Because it seems culturally, we promote that as women are very much open to talking about this, whereas men are very shut down, enclosed.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Okay, so quickly, big picture of the world. As a spokesperson for gender equality, I would like to talk about gender unity, harmony.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  We are two species that have differences, but a lot of similarities and much more similarities than differences.

• 51:18Shane Parrish?

  Totally.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  We are seeing right now in the world, when you look at the facts and the science and the research, that girls and women have been facing barriers mentally and physically more than men have on many aspects of their lives. That is the truth. This being said, I got tapped on the head a couple of years ago or months ago because on International Women's Day, I had said, please invite the men in your life who treat you with respect and who see your potential and beauty and intelligence and wisdom because those people, those wonderful creatures that men are also meant to become, are with us on this journey. And without gender unity and harmony, we will get nowhere.

• 51:57Shane Parrish?

  How is that controversial at all?

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Oh, don't, can we?

• 52:00Shane Parrish?

  Okay.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  That's what I think too, but.

• 52:02Shane Parrish?

  Understood, understood.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  The, the, um, boys have also been living in a culture and men where they have been taught to repress what needs to be expressed. It is not fair. And I believe you are worth much more than that and that we need this connection between men and women, whether we're just friends, acquaintances, or in a couple's relationship, where proximity, truth, and opening up to one another will actually determine how peaceful as human beings we will become. It all, it all goes back to human dynamics between men and women and girls and boys.

• 52:37Shane Parrish?

  There's an article I wrote a long time ago on the website, but as I was going through my divorce, I realized I wasn't fully present with my friends. And it changed sort of like my definition of being present because it came as a surprise to them because I was always one to never want to talk about my troubles, never put the spotlight on what I was going through. And I don't know why I thought that at the time, but it's been something I've worked on over the past four years to be a lot more open about not only the joys and happiness in my life, but the sorrows and the problems with it with my friends. And I think it's made me a much better friend because of that.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Just hearing this makes me emotional. Thank you for saying that. Because it's a gift. Every time we open up is a gift. There will always be, you know, opposition and people who will judge, but most people want you, Shane, to tell your truth and to hear about what you're going through. And you will find support. And what I've seen, listening to, you know, gender equality advocates, people who are making a difference all throughout this planet, who are dedicating their lives to create more justice and equality, is that when one raises his or her voice and becomes vulnerable, it allows for other humans to do the same.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  It's not mathematical. This is human potential and reality, and it's doable. So, and I think we're starting to do it more and more, whether it's the Me Too movement or any movement of truth that is coming to the surface, where we see where human beings are suffering and how we can help out. I think that's truly good news for where we're going as a world. Because, yeah, it's true. When you look at the state of the world, you can be totally depressed. But when you actually meet those people who, and those thousands and millions of individuals who believe in peace and justice and goodness, you know that it's possible because you see it happen. Everywhere, on the ground, in companies. You know?

• 54:43Shane Parrish?

  It is possible. I think the people like yourself who are more open about this make it possible for other people.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  I hope so.

• 54:51Shane Parrish?

  And slowly, it becomes something that builds over time.

• 54:55Shane Parrish?

  You're a huge reader. I mean, where did this interest from reading come from?

• 54:59Speaker 00

  I love reading. I have less time to read. But just because what I read most of the time is the, all the facts and the research that comes out on equalities on our planet, especially concerning girls and boys, men and women, so that I comprehend the topic that I discuss with other people. And I like to do my homework before I get up on a stage, even if it's been 20 years. Every single time I have butterflies, every single time I've done my homework, every single time it's a new encounter with new human beings. And I long for proximity and connection. So I want to make sure that I'm ready to. Have that moment. Maybe it's not if I'm ready. Maybe it's are they ready? Cause I know I'm ready. Um, wait, what's the question?

• 55:43Shane Parrish?

  Where did the interest from reading?

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Oh, the interest from reading. I mean, when I was young, I used to ask my parents to buy me a des contents, which are kind of like singing poems in a bit. I was also curious about more mature content, more philosophical content. What is happiness? Why are we here at a young age?

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Romantic love. I was more into biographies than fiction. And I married a man, Justin, who is an avid reader. I don't think I've ever met anybody who reads more than he has. And when he was seven years old, he was sitting in his father's library. And he looked around and he said, I'm going to read every book in here. A whole universe had opened up for him. And he, since the day we met, he, he and I were exchanging, you know,

• 56:45Speaker 00

  reading suggestions and stuff, but we just don't read the same stuff. But it's good. So we can learn from one another and the stuff that we read differently. But my love for reading continues because I like to, once again, learn about human truths and what's happening. And I am an eternal

• 57:07Speaker 00

  life lover. So anything that inspires me to love life even more, I will read. And there are so many authors and Canadian authors out there who are exploring truth in different ways, whether it's through biographies or whether it's through poems. And I have them beside my, you know, my bedside table. And I don't have, apart from work and all the reading on gender equality and human trafficking and

• 57:38Speaker 00

  What's happening socially and in social contexts and on different levels on this planet, I'm so totally passionate, totally passionate about. And then it's really about more, you know, human philosophy, poetry, art, the art of letting go. Yeah, I'm.

• 57:56Shane Parrish?

  In a way, it's, it's, it sounds as you're saying it, I'm thinking it's like not only connecting to other people and making yourself more open to other people, but revealing what exists within the world, but more importantly, revealing parts of yourself that you may never have thought about in that way and showing you more about who you are and or who you could be.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Maybe, yeah. I think.

• 58:20Shane Parrish?

  Push back on that if you don't agree.

• 58:22Speaker 00

  No, no, I think that's interesting because

• 58:26Speaker 00

  if I, if I'm willing to explore within me who I am, and it's not in a narcissistic way. It's actually in a way where I'm not, I'm not sure what I'm going to find. Let's go see what's down there. And how do I express that? Whether it's, I love to write. Sometimes I'll walk down the street, I'll hear a melody in my head, I'll, I'll write the melody down with words. Sometimes it will be, I'll look at a flower or my kid blowing on a daffodil on a, how do you, those called in English?

• 58:57Shane Parrish?

  Danieline?

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, Danieline. And it's, it's all those little moments of sharing a smile with a stranger or whatever it is. And I'm inspired, I just, I just don't know where it's from, but I'm constantly inspired. And that translates into self-exploration. And it allows me to, you're right, to maybe explore in a way that is, I don't think I possess the answer. But if I feel like that about myself, then maybe the person that I'll talk to next will, will feel that energy and will feel safe enough to go there as well. So yeah, thank you for pointing that out. Maybe it's a contagious process in a way.

• 59:35Shane Parrish?

  I think that's one of the things about reading that people don't realize is you can explore yourself and you can explore yourself in a different world and a different universe. And sort of like discover different parts of you that connect you to the world that you're living in and the relationships that you're in and the person that you inspire to be, without having to do all of that trial and error necessarily in person.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Well, it can be freaky to actually think, you know, when nobody's watching, when I'm alone, if I didn't live in this culture and in this kind of planet, who would I be?

• 1:00:06Shane Parrish?

  I love that. That's how we started this interview, which is like, who are you when nobody's watching, right? So it kind of comes full circle in terms of

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Chills again. Chills come back.

• 1:00:16Shane Parrish?

  We both had watery eyes during this.

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  Yes, we did.

• 1:00:20Shane Parrish?

  What do you do on a routine basis that has a positive, other than nature, because we've already covered that. But like, what little habit do you have that other people would be interested in that positively impacts you?

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  That, I mean, without thinking, it's kissing my kids, smelling their necks and their hair and having them close to me. But it's also talking gently to myself, breathing, taking time to sit down for five to 10 minutes and breathe. And try to, sometimes I imagine my thoughts in my head, that you can like pull them out. And it's all space and that space is pure, it's untouched. And it's every day to renew again. What am I going to put in this body, in this mind and in this heart? So that this day is better and can create better for other people. To start kind of like on a blank slate every day, even with everything that we know and feel, it's possible.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  So the habit of actually taking perspective, maybe, even for five minutes, even for two minutes, even on a bus ride where you close your eyes and you, you feel that I'm actually surrounded with people I don't know here and nothing's happening and it's peaceful.

• 1:01:32Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  I'm actually driving down the highway at 120 kilometers an hour and nobody's hitting one another. There must be something that's keeping us in love of who we are in the less narcissistic way possible, that we are responsible for one another as a whole, as a community, as a country and as a world.

• 1:01:51Shane Parrish?

  Last question, it's a big one. But I want to end with this because I really want to hear your thoughts. You're such a deep thinker on this stuff that I think it'd be amazing, which is, how do you think about the meaning and purpose of life?

• 1:02:08Shane Parrish?

  I told you it was a big one.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  If I could give you a solid answer, it would be my answer. Because nothing, no words of our language will ever grasp the magic of what it is to be human. The beauty of silence between us, between strangers on this planet, the meaning of what it is to be fully human, I think, happens between the lines, between the actions, between the exchange and between the words. I think that is the most creative place.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  And we must go back to that.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  Because I think it unites us in more subtle ways than we might think. And that what it really means to be human is something we might not just see with the eyes. It somehow might be just bigger and greater than that.

• 1:03:12Shane Parrish?

  Thank you.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Thank you, Shane.

• 1:03:18Shane Parrish?

  Hey, guys. This is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com/podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G dot com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for listening.