#45 Dan Kluger: Taking Time to Get It Right

Dan Kluger, award-winning chef and owner of NYC’s Loring Place joins me on the podcast to reveal what really happens behind the scenes of a bustling restaurant, why every detail of your craft matters, and how to create the perfect experience for every guest. Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  But I think there is something really important about in any field not getting to the top too quickly.

• 0:16Shane Parrish?

  I'm Shane Parrish, and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out. To learn more about the show and past guests, go to fs.blog/podcast. My guest today is chef Dan Kluger. I first met Dan when a friend took me to his restaurant, Loring Place, in New York for a late dinner one night. And like he does most nights, Dan left the kitchen to come out and talk to all the people in the dining room. That prompted me to get more interested in the food and the business of running a restaurant. We started an email conversation shortly after. Dan worked in Danny Meyer's Union Square Cafe, starting in the front of the house and working his way back to prep cook, and then every station in the kitchen. In

• 1:01Shane Parrish?

  1999, he helped open Tableau Restaurant and worked his way up to Chef de Cuisine. As you'll hear, working his way up and earning his stripes, so to speak, was important to Dan and something that's lost on a lot of chefs today. In 2010, Dan opened ABC Kitchen as the executive chef and won a whole bunch of awards, like the 2011 Best New Restaurant, the 2010 Food and Wine Best New Chef. And in the fall of 2016, he opened Loring Place in New York, which is exceptional. And that's where this conversation takes place. I highly recommend the Sundays. Enjoy.

• 1:40Shane Parrish?

  Can you tell me, at what point did you realize you wanted to be a chef?

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't really know. I guess it's better to give a little quick history. I went to Syracuse University, not expecting to have anything to do with food, and I thought I was going to do physical therapy, and ended up taking a bunch of nutrition, food science classes as a prerequisite for it. And then I kind of started to catch this little bug. And through that, I...

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Was open to this lecture series that we put on and I met a number of amazing entrepreneurs and restaurateurs and one of which was Danny Meyer. And so I went to work for him as an intern, college internship, came back for my, I guess my senior year and really started to get this excitement over it and realized that this is something that I could see myself doing, being involved in a restaurant. I didn't really know in what capacity. So I graduated and it was not a culinary program by any means, but we did some cooking and it was

• 2:49Speaker 00

  right at the, another, I think, stock market crash, downturns of the economy and they'd made some cutbacks and the teacher, the professor that did all of the cooking classes and all the extracurricular activities with cooking, he got laid off. And so I became sort of a TA and I ended up taking over some of those classes and getting really involved with cooking and just taught myself how to get through it and was working with other cooks on how to do these projects we did. But again, never thought it would be the path I would choose. Went back to Union Square Cafe after I graduated to do some work in the front of the house, host, major D, that kind of thing and thought maybe there'd be something

• 3:33Speaker 00

  else for me to work on, using my degree. Really was excited about the idea of doing some packaging products, things like that. So just kind of biding my time, trying to figure out what was going to be the next path. And I decided on my days off to hang out in the kitchen to learn a little about what that was like. At Union Square? At Union Square Cafe. You know, huge kitchen, or not huge kitchen, but very busy kitchen. You know, at that point in time, it was, it was Cigat's number one restaurant in the country or city, whatever it was at that point, you know, year after year. So it certainly was not, I wasn't walking in some small little restaurant. I mean, this was eye opening. And I enjoyed the front of the house experience a lot, but the idea of being in the kitchen was intriguing. So I spent a little time in my days off just

• 4:17Speaker 00

  to kind of understand what was going on. And at some point, they offered me a job as a prep cook. So I was making, I think, eight, eight fifty an hour, peeling potatoes, cleaning calamari I worked with. The prep crew was strictly Spanish speaking. I didn't speak one word of Spanish. So it was really like a, again, very. Kind of cultural shock for me. Um, and I, I did that for about three, three months, four months and, and started really get into the idea of it, but still was, it's just a prep cook. I mean, I didn't know where it would go to. Um, and then, you know, was promoted to, I think, oysters and sandwiches. And then I was doing, making all the fresh pastas and I kept working my way up and I spent, um, just under three years

• 5:01Speaker 00

  there, uh, as a line cook and, and then, uh, moved on to, to open tablas, a line cook with Floyd Cotto's. And so really it was just, it was somewhere around that point that I, I took this from, it's interesting and I'm enjoying doing it to, I think I'm actually good at this and I should pursue this as a career. It was really right around that time of, of finishing at Union Square and opening tabla somewhere in there that I started to look at other opportunities. Did I, did I want to cook at a small restaurant? Did I want to do, um, purchasing and, and do more of a, a corporate thing? Did I want to get involved with other aspects of, of kitchen and restaurant business, but not be cooking? Cause I just wasn't sure. Um, and tabla was an amazing, amazing

• 5:46Speaker 00

  experience. Really again, opened my eyes to, to food and to cooking. It was very different than Union Square.

• 5:51Shane Parrish?

  How, how did that experience in the front of the house at Union Square shape how you acted or behaved, or what you created in the back in the kitchen?

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Um, well, I, I think it certainly helped with, um, what we do in the kitchen, but I think it helped more with, um, where I am today and, and the path that I've taken. Um, in terms of really wanting to be a chef owner and, and create my own thing from start to, to finish.

• 6:19Shane Parrish?

  And today we're, we're sitting in Loring Place having this interview and this is your, your creation.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  This is, this is my creation, my baby. Um, all the, the blood, literally blood, sweat and tears. Um, I've gone into it. Um, so I, I think, you know, for one, um, if I'd worked probably any decent restaurant, uh, front of the house, I think that experience of being customer facing and, and, um, enjoying customer interactions, um, would, would help shape where I am today. But I think working for Danny Meyer and, um, you know, really being a believer in this hospitality. Um, and

• 6:58Shane Parrish?

  What was that like? I mean, there's such a persona for Danny Meyer that

• 7:03Speaker 00

  I mean, he's, he's an amazing person, truly amazing. Um, and I, I was very fortunate, um, that when I started at Union Square Cafe, uh, I think Grand Mercy Tavern had opened two years prior, maybe somewhere around there, not even. Um, so he was still very much, you know, involved in, in Union Square Cafe. Uh, Paul Bowles Bevan, who was his managing partner was, uh, I mean, really one of the best people I've ever met in my life and, and really grasped hospitality from, from the customer side to the, to the employee's side, um, really was just a wonderful person to work with. And so I was at this, you know, forefront of Danny and Paul and even Michael Romano

• 7:42Speaker 00

  and all these people that really, um, believed it, practiced it and, and helped me experience it. Um, so

• 7:49Shane Parrish?

  And that's the service-based culture that you're

• 7:52Speaker 00

  The, the service-based culture, but really the, the taking care of people, um, both as your employee and, and as guests. And I think, um, you know, the, the taking care of employees, uh, ultimately it's a job and ultimately we have to make money. Um, I think they did a lot to try and, um, make us feel good, whether it was, you know, doing family meal, doing, um, what we, what we kind of refer to now as lineup, which is, you know, where the whole, whole front of the house staff and we also do in the kitchen, they line up and we talk about what's going to happen for the day and really, you know, ju- just like a, a big organization probably has small team meetings. Um, it's really no different, but you know, in, in the restaurants, it's not always that common. Uh, now I think it is. And I think, you know,

• 8:37Speaker 00

  he certainly was probably, uh, didn't create that, but at the forefront of it. Um, and you know, looking at things like the tip pools and all these different things that, that I think, um, uh, I, I imagine, again, he didn't start, but he was sort of pioneer, so to speak, in terms of taking big restaurants and making them work this way. Um, but I think the biggest thing that, that he's known for and, or at least that, that we got from it, um, we being people that worked there, um, even today, but certainly at that time is this, this hospitality, this feeling of really trying to blow a guest away.

• 9:12Shane Parrish?

  What does that mean?

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Like, I, I think it's, it's all about how do you take a very average experience. So most of us go out to eat. It's a means to an end. You know, your, your boys are sitting at the bar now. They're going to have something later. It's literally a means to an end. It is, they're here with you. We're doing this. They're gonna get something to eat. They don't really care what, when, where, and how. They just want something.

• 9:34Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  And sometimes we go out because we want to experience something. It's an anniversary. It's a celebration. Um, sometimes it is, um, uh, an opportunity to see people you haven't seen in a long time. Sometimes it's a business meeting, whatever it is. Ultimately, the dining is a means to an end. And, you know, they were really at the forefront of how do we, how do we make this special? And it was always just little things. And I think that's always been something that I've taken away. And I mean, I, again, I remember how little things that had nothing to do with the actual food, but where the experience could change experience for somebody drastically.

• 10:11Shane Parrish?

  Can you give me some examples?

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Thing, things like, and, and again, I saw this a lot at Union Square, but, um, took a lot of it to Tavla and have taken it on since then. Uh, you know, back nineteen ninety-eight, if you parked on the street, you had to put coins in the meters. And I remember, uh, guessed at, at Union Square, and this was when I was working in front of the house, saying, uh, I need some change to go put money in the meter. And I said, here, you know, I'll get it for you from the bartender. So why don't you just tell me where your car is? And, you know, they didn't have to give me a key at that point in time.

• 10:38Shane Parrish?

  I'll do it for you.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  And I'll do it for you. And like, well, no, no, you don't need to do that. I don't want to interrupt your meal. Why don't you sit down, enjoy your meal? Just tell me where your car is and we'll take care of it for you. And I think those little things were, were things that people didn't really do.

• 10:51Shane Parrish?

  It, it seems so much today that everything runs around the business. And by the business, I mean, it's like the process for the business instead of what is in the best interest of the customer. Because being in the best interest of the customer means a lot of variation. And you have to be able to accommodate different things. You have to hire probably differently.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I, I think in general today, we probably accommodate a lot more than restaurants would have fifteen years ago. Again, taking, taking in a, a relationship or a restaurant similar to any Union Square hospitality restaurant. But an average restaurant, you know, they wouldn't have done something like that. They wouldn't go out and Get a newspaper for a regular sitting at the bar that has, you know, nothing to read. Um, you know, they, they, they wouldn't do those little things, but you know, now I think we do so much of trying to accommodate and it's, it's not to like win this war. It's, it's just you're here and I'm happy you're here. It's, it is a little bit of a transaction. Um, but I also think,

• 11:51Speaker 00

  you know, we're, we're at a point where the industry is in a position of raising costs and all these different things that are affecting us that, um, the accommodations still need to happen, but they need to happen on a sort of non-financial side, you know?

• 12:04Shane Parrish?

  Right. Talk to me about, there seems to be almost a rite of passage to become a chef, right? Like you start, or maybe I misunderstand this. I don't know anything about how you become a chef, but it, it sounds from a lot of stories that I've heard, like you start out as, you know, the lowest of the low in the kitchen sort of, and then you work your way up and it's almost this war of attrition.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm all very valid and I think that the war of attrition is certainly a, a very valid point. Um, it's a reason why, uh, I don't know. I, I think I, I grew up in the industry with a lot of very talented people and many of which have gone on to become chefs, but I also can look around and see so many people that I would have thought would be a chef and they're not today. They went to do something different because it's, it, it is a tough industry. Um, I do think there's something to be said for working your way up and it's not necessarily lowest of the low, but you know, cause that, that almost sounds derogatory, but there's something missing today about a cook that doesn't know how to peel a potato

• 13:11Speaker 00

  properly. They don't know how to run a dishwasher.

• 13:13Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Um, and you know,

• 13:16Shane Parrish?

  Is that common?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 13:17Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  I mean, I could, I could find, you know, four different examples, whether it's filleting a fish or butchering a chicken, um, or turning an artichoke or something like that, that, you know, solid cooks have not been experienced to do this yet. You know, they, they went to school and they butchered one chicken or they butchered six chickens, but they, they haven't done a hundred. They haven't done 10 cases. Uh, they haven't done it, you know, 20 pieces every day for six months to the point where they have now pushed themselves to get so much better. And it goes back to, to the whole apprenticeship thing, right? I mean, if you think back old world, somebody

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Any kind of craftsman, any kind of um job where you had to learn a skill. You sort of started from the bottom and you worked your way up. If you were a shoemaker, you know, you didn't just start making shoes uh on day one. You had to work your way up. If you were uh you know, somebody working with steel. Again, you had to you had to work your way up. Thinking about construction, I mean, anything, so.

• 14:23Shane Parrish?

  Now we think you can just watch a YouTube video and you're an expert.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  There there there is so much of that and I I don't think that anybody necessarily thinks there's they're experts. But um for better or for worse, there's so many opportunities now to learn right away. You know, I read book upon book upon book. And I get caught up today in YouTube videos and and these amazing food websites. That you know, it's like it just like that that black hole of the internet. You just keep going and going and going and it's exciting to learn. Uh and I think back if I had had that, you know, when I was starting out, I probably wouldn't have read any of these books. Which would have been detrimental on another. Part of my career.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Uh you know, I I'd learned so much from reading these books and from experiencing food and um food that was being done all over the country. Uh you know, anywhere from from that point in time, you know, or early nineties to twenty, thirty years before that. Uh but I think there is something really important about in any field um not getting to the top two quickly. Um and really paying your dues somewhere. And I you know, I I maybe I'm not um I I maybe didn't do it the best way in the sense that I spent a lot of time in a very few number of places. Um I spent three plus years at Union Square Cafe. I spent seven years at Tabla.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  I spent, I think, four and a half years at the Core Club. I spent five years with with Jean Georges and ABC and now I'm doing my own thing. And you know, I know a lot of other people who did a lot less and saw a lot more places and were probably exposed to many more things than I ever will be. Um so I in some in some respects, I I'm sorry I didn't get that experience. Um but there's also something really sad about honing your skill in in one place and and you know, it gave me the opportunity to sort of like take ownership.

• 16:19Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Over every place I was at. I I spent so long there that it was hard not to feel like an owner.

• 16:25Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me about how the idea for Loring Place started as a seed and germinated and became reality.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Ultimately, I think from as early on as, you know, the, the end of my time at Tabla, I started thinking about, I'd like to own something. I really, I'm committed a hundred percent. This is what I want to do. But I really want to not only call the shots, but I want to build something from scratch. I've always enjoyed that idea, whether it's the physical building or just the, you know, philosophical build something from scratch.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  And so I was working at this private membership call, uh, club called The Core Club. It was an amazing experience where I was the chef and, and again, while I was an owner, I was, I was there long enough and, and in a position high enough that I, I couldn't help but feel ownership over it.

• 17:29Shane Parrish?

  Right. I mean, you're in there every day, like

• 17:32Speaker 00

  You're, you're in there every day.

• 17:34Shane Parrish?

  Blood, sweat and tears.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  And, and, you know, you're responsible for numbers and you're, I think this was a really amazing experience because it was a private membership club that, you know, it was hard. I couldn't invite friends to, to eat. I, I, I think my family came once in the four plus years I was there.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  It was private for a reason and I think in some respects that, that was beneficial because it made me have to work that much harder getting staff because nobody really knew anything about it.

• 18:08Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  There was no New York Times review. There was no, you know, blog posts about it. So it made me really kind of, I think, work on this philosophy of, of creating a, a tight knit group of people, you know, the, the employees and, I mean, some of them are still here with me today and that was 2005.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  So I, I think while I was there, I was around, you know, some of the best CEOs, entrepreneurs in the world and, and I Just really kind of spent more and more time thinking about I want to do this, I want to do this. And I worked on a business plan back in like, again, I think two thousand six, two thousand seven. And it was right when stock market crashed and I knew I wasn't going to raise any money.

• 18:57Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  And I also felt like, you know, I'm, I'm still young and as much as I want to do something, it's maybe it's not the right time. And I was very fortunate enough to meet Jean Georges at the farmer's market and went to go work for him. And was incredibly happy with what I was doing, but again, there was always this kind of like burning need to do my own thing.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  And, and so.

• 19:22Shane Parrish?

  It strikes me as like they're, they're completely almost

• 19:28Shane Parrish?

  accretive strengths, but they're not commonly found together. I mean, to be a great chef and to be a great entrepreneur at the same time. Talk to me about.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I mean, I think obviously there's, there's a number of amazing ones, Jean Georges being one of them, Danielle Balud being another, Wolfgang Puck. I mean, there's plenty, some of which have done big empires and some have done small.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  But I think a lot of us have that creative bug. That doesn't just end with the food, it goes into the dining experience in some form or another. And again, for me, you know, the, what, what were the glasses, what were the plates? I had a vision very early on of what I wanted the plates to be based on

• 20:13Speaker 00

  a, a bowl that my parents, a set of bowls my parents gave me when I went off to college and said, you know, here, we got these in Vermont, really nice little bowls and you can use them for cereal or whatever in your dorm room.

• 20:24Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  I still have them today. And they were just this cool shape that I, I went to the guy that I was friends with that I knew would do the plates. I said, I want to base it off of this. So the, the creativity, you know, obviously we need to always be creating food, but.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  I don't think that necessarily gets old or we burn out on it, but always wanting something new. And so the idea of now starting to create a restaurant and create plates and create the the atmosphere and the playlists and all these other things, it was just one more thing to

• 20:56Shane Parrish?

  You can control the environment and to some extent the experience.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and you know, again, that leads to finding other people that want to be part of that as well. Um, so I, I don't know if it's necessarily uncommon. Um, to have those things go together, but it is definitely less common. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's plenty of incredible chefs that I know. Um, that really, you know, they want the front of house experience to be great, but they're not really that concerned about. Um, what, what's the overall package? Uh, and I think as you, you know, you go back to attrition, I think as you watch, there's less and less of those around. I think more and more people are saying, I, I do want to be part of the whole package and I want to find a

• 21:42Speaker 00

  a partner, front of the house or uh, front of the house guy, finding a partner and a, and a chef. Um, that again, has those same sort of wants and needs of full creation and being involved and, and you know, full creation doesn't mean it's, it's narrow minded. It's can still be a team, um, but being able to say like, really want to do all this stuff. I don't want to just work for somebody else. I want to do all this.

• 22:08Shane Parrish?

  What goes into, when, when I come into a restaurant and I sit down, I, I start reading a menu and you know, these dishes look amazing, but what goes into the creation of a dish that I see on a menu?

• 22:21Speaker 00

  I think it's, I think it's different for everybody.

• 22:24Shane Parrish?

  What, what's your creative process?

• 22:26Speaker 00

  For, for me, there's, um,

• 22:30Speaker 00

  there's a few different ways to few, few different things that kind of come together. And sometimes, you know, we're very seasonally driven and we use a lot of the local farmers, U square, farmers market and, and um, all sorts of other farmers that deliver to us, but um, As things are coming in season, walking through the farmer's market and, you know, having this tactile experience of picking up something and then picking up something else and smelling aromas in the air and kind of like, I mean, literally it could be, you could pick something up and you can have a flashback of something you ate 10 years ago. Um, so, so that can start the process. Um, that's one, one portion of it. And again, I mean, I can think of examples of walking through the farmer's market and, um, picking

• 23:13Speaker 00

  up, uh, some tomatoes and then picking up some peaches and I, I love the combination of peach, tomato, and then picking up, um, some fennel and some onions and thinking about like doing some of all those things together and coming back and working on something and making it a dish. So that's obviously, you know, one way and it's again very tactile, it's very much, um, in the moment of, of the inspiration. Um, I also think sometimes it's, it's driven by a need. Um, we, we know that, um, I don't know, we know that English peas are coming to an end and that tomatoes are about

• 23:51Speaker 00

  to happen. Uh, strawberries are at the market, uh, and have to work on something. And so then it's kind of like either going to the market or going downstairs and, and sort of like just forcing yourself to again, have this tactile experience of touching and looking and thinking about things. And sometimes it's literally like walking down the sta- somebody's station and picking up a tomato and then going to the next station, eating a piece of cheese and then going to the next station, like taking a, a little piece of ginger and thinking, oh wait, all those have kind of like created something interesting in my mouth right now. And I wasn't planning on a dish, but it became something. Um, and then I think the other one that, that sometimes happens, and again, it really spawns off of

• 24:36Speaker 00

  there's a need to change something. Um, but I could literally be-

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Looking at a magazine and see a picture of something, not even read the the caption, no idea what I'm looking at, but for whatever reason, something sparks. And close the magazine, kinda like never think about that again, but that made me think, I really wanna do something with lamb. I haven't done anything with lamb in a while. And then pull from either childhood memories or pull from a dish that um, you know, I've done years before, and that becomes something. And for this restaurant, there was a lot of all of those things coming together. I wanted this restaurant to sort of be a little bit of an exploration, a little bit of a a celebration, so to speak, of restaurants I worked at in the city. You know, I've only

• 25:26Speaker 00

  worked in the city. Um, I don't have a cultural background, um, like like Danielle Jean Georges, um, Marcus Samuelson, et cetera. Like, I didn't have uh, this uh, this cultural background that I I saw, you know, Floyd Coades, who was a mentor of mine, I saw him pull from this every day. Every day we cooked, he pulled from his Indian background and and was able, you know, talk about something that he had as a child growing up. Um, and so I I said, okay, I am not gonna rip off dishes from the past, but I need to borrow from them. I need to be inspired by them. And I think a, you know, great example of that, um, is we have a crispy cauliflower dish on the menu, which was really inspired

• 26:08Speaker 00

  by something we did at Tabla, um, and something I I did later on somewhere else. And uh, it's coated in Indian spices that, um, we used to make this dish, I think it was scallops with like this cauliflower puree with tomatoes. And I mean, nothing to do with what we're doing, but just that, again, thinking about some of these combinations made me say, all right, well, I don't wanna use X, Y, and Z, but the cumin was amazing with that cauliflower and and the turmeric was great. So what if you make a spice paste of that? Now we had some chilies in, and now we're gonna batter it and fry it. Now we have something that's amazing. It tastes great, but needs something else. And then thinking about, okay, what are some, what are some like more American things? How do I get away from the spice now

• 26:49Speaker 00

  and pull back? And we liked a lot, we liked to use a lot of uh, sweet, sour, spicy, salty, crunchy, like all these things that create these um, peaks and valleys as you eat. You know, one bite is one thing, one bite's another. So. In that one specific dish, it was like, okay, well, now, what are the other components? How do we make something sweet and sour? And so we made a lemon jam, and then we added some pickled chilies, and then we had some cilantro for this, you know, strong herb flavor. And so, all these things kind of became a dish, but they're all inspired by something else. I mean, that's kind of happened throughout the menu. And then, um, a lot of the desserts have taken shape, um, from, from childhood favorite things of mine. Hostess cupcake, the Blizzard, um, and cookies and some other things like that.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  And then, um, I think same for, for our pastry chef, Deanna, it's sort of things that, that she's excited about, that she remembers eating, or, or something that seems kind of mundane, like a, a bread pudding. How do we make it really exciting? And so, again, these little twists that make it really exciting.

• 27:48Shane Parrish?

  Is every day different?

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Every day is different, um, but mainly because of who's coming in. Um, we don't change what we're doing. We're not a, a restaurant that, um, as much as we do change the menu, we don't change, change the menu daily, and especially create menus just because of who's coming in. Um, but for me, you know, I think, I think for the majority of the staff, every day is fairly similar. There's definitely ups and downs. Who called out sick? What did we not get today? You know, did we, did we sell a ton of ducks yesterday? And so now, you know, we're really behind today, and that's a big project. Um, but for me, you know, every day is very different because, A, my task list can be,

• 28:32Speaker 00

  because I enjoy the customer interaction, I find that, you know, it, I can have a night where I know half the dining room, and it just, the night just flies by, you know, between spending time with people and then just making sure that those experiences are amazing. And then I'll have another night where I don't know anybody. And so now I'm challenged to really push, I don't have anybody to, to really connect with, so how do I go out and connect with them? And how do we, how do we make that experience? How do I put? Coins in the meter for somebody, you know, I can't do that. So what do I do? And a lot of that is finding a way to connect through food and see that, you know, uh, again, you know, two, two boys are sitting at a table.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  I have a feeling they probably wouldn't mind some ice cream. And so, you know, how do we get ahead and do something kind of special for them? Or um, overhearing somebody talking about uh bacon and thinking about, okay, they didn't order bacon, but we make an incredible bacon in-house. How about we send them a little bacon? So that, all those things kind of make my day more exciting.

• 29:32Shane Parrish?

  One of the things that stuck out for me, I think it was a month ago that I ate here for the first time, we were kind of introduced, was how visible you were in the dining room. And that was an experience that I'm not used to as a customer.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think again, that goes back to um, A, my love for the interactions, my love for the, essentially the instant gratification of talking to somebody about the food. Um, but certainly my experience of spending um, time in the front of the house and experiencing um, that, that first impression of somebody walking in the door and how that greeting at the host stand to getting them to a table, how many factors there are in that and how easy it is to really screw that up uh, or blow somebody's mind. And again, I can think about, you know,

• 30:28Speaker 00

  times at Union Square Cafe, I remember walking people to a table and creating a, a very quick relationship. I mean, one time I remember quickly, like literally, I mean, in, in thirty steps, having a discussion and realizing that they were from London and I was going to London the next month and we connected quickly and I ended up going and spending a, a night with them and cooking with them.

• 30:51Shane Parrish?

  That's awesome.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  At their house, you know, so that, that, all those little things have always made it very exciting for me to be part of the front of the house and be part of that experience.

• 31:00Shane Parrish?

  Take me behind the scenes in the kitchen. What does it look like when the kitchen's working exceptional? And what does it look like when it's a struggle? And what are those differences?

• 31:11Speaker 00

  Um, a lot of it comes down to, to being prepared. Um, and then communication. Um, ultimately, if we are prepared, it's, well, kind of use the analogy of going into battle. We're prepared for battle. Right there, you know, what's it saying, it's like half the battle, right? I mean, being prepared sets us up for success. And from there, um, the, the next part of the struggle is the communication. And it's, it's literally like, somebody's having a bad day, they, they have a cold, they can't hear you properly, the dining room is just really boisterous and loud tonight, and it's seeping into the kitchen and it's interfering.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Um, all those little things can play a factor in how we're communicating with each other. But, um, you know, assuming everybody's prepared, uh, which is as simple as having all the herbs you need and, and having all the lettuce you need and having the ducks ready and all those things, or not. Um, and, and then basically just having constant communication. It's, it's a rhythm. I mean, you talk about the peaks and valleys of the food, the, the, um, the rhythm of the kitchen is very much same thing. It's up and down, it's up and down. And so, again, there, there's so many factors. It's how, how's it going in the front of the house? Did you show up on time for your reservation? Were you late for your reservation? Were you supposed to be four people and you're six people?

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Were you supposed to be six people and you're four people? You know, you'd think that those things don't really matter, but they actually have a huge impact on what we're doing. And so, you know, again, there's so many factors, but assuming that things are falling into place, we're really just kind of going up and down and up and down. And you know, you call out a ticket, then you, you fire, you know, four things and everybody says, great, eight minutes will be in the window. And now, assuming that they're communicating, communicating properly, eight minutes later, everything goes in the window. And somewhere in between that eight minutes, you're firing the next group. And literally it's just up and down, up and down, up and down. But it doesn't, it doesn't take much to throw a wrench in things, you know? You burn something, you run out of something, again, something happens to the table. Uh, you know, we're, we're really, I think the industry's in an interesting space right

• 33:22Speaker 00

  now in terms of that sort of thing. Like just people kind of losing sight of, as we talked about earlier, it's a transaction. You know, if you have tickets to Hamilton. You're gonna go and if you have strep throat and you don't feel well, you're gonna find a way to either go or sell the tickets off.

• 33:39Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  And I certainly don't advocate, you know, uh, selling a reservation and I don't advocate coming in sick, but um.

• 33:47Shane Parrish?

  No, but it is hard to get a reservation here, right?

• 33:49Speaker 00

  It it it's hard to get a reservation and it really is, I mean, we're seeing more than ever, um, I think, um, a huge shift in, tables just not showing up, canceling five minutes before, people showing up late and then wondering why they can't be sat. Um, it happened last night and I I'm so tempted to say, when's the last time you were late for a flight?

• 34:12Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Never. I mean, you didn't get on that flight if you were. But yet I'm gonna hold the seat for you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose a transaction to somebody who's actually waiting in the hopes that you're gonna show up. So again, all those things are to say that, um, we've had nights, uh, where it's slow and it is just, it is a hall all night long, you know, you can never get out from underneath it. And then we've had nights where it seems incredibly busy and you look at the number at the end and you turn around and say, I, I would have thought this was like a hundred less covers. It was so easy. And a lot of that is just if the rhythm just keeps working and working and working.

• 34:52Shane Parrish?

  And the prep is there beforehand to make the night. So some nights you actually know you're probably gonna have a slog right before dinner service because you're not in the place that you wanna be.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, which, you know, again, going back to the no days, every same, we, we have a lot of systems in place and we have a an amazing team that then looks and says, okay, it's five thirty and we still need X, Y, and Z. Okay, I'm gonna keep this person to do this. I'm gonna do this myself. And I'm gonna give these three things up to these other people because we know that, you know, especially on a, on a Friday or Saturday, whatever night of the week, really. If at five thirty, you're not ready, it's gonna be downhill for not just that one person, but for everybody around them.

• 35:30Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me about Dan the boss in terms of like how you, at the end of the night, something didn't go well, you gotta debrief, you gotta fix it because you don't want it to be a repetitive problem. How do you handle that?

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Um, we do a couple of different things. I mean, for, for one, um, for, for one, we try and, uh, communicate, um, through a lineup at the end of the night, you know, hey, these things didn't go right, um. Whether it becomes one-on-one with one specific person, but most of the time it's a team thing. And then we do a lot sort of on the back end with all the managers with recaps. So that the next morning whoever's opening that wasn't here knows that the three things that were significant problems are all picked up first thing in the morning. So seven thirty, eight o'clock in the morning, those things are going to be addressed. So hopefully come five o'clock the next day, whatever that issue was, is not an issue again today.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  We really are trying to do a lot of that. Ultimately, you know, we want to get better, we want to smooth things out, but I can tell you that there is a lot less today of the, you know, kicking and screaming and throwing things because something didn't go right. Nothing's really worth it.

• 36:44Shane Parrish?

  Is that because the team's stable across years?

• 36:48Speaker 00

  I think, I think certainly I've matured, I think the people around me have matured. I think I have more on the line today than I ever have. But, so you'd think that it'd be the opposite, I'd be even more high-strung about it. I think ultimately, you know, we've all started to realize that it's not the way to go. And, you know, that adage of you get more bees with honey than vinegar, it's really the same sort of thing. I mean, being in a pissy mood's not going to actually get anybody anywhere. Do a lot of coaching. We spend a lot of time coaching people and sitting people down and talking about performance. And I think that sends a serious message that, you know, this isn't just a, we're not,

• 37:32Speaker 00

  we're not just going to yell at you and throw something at you. We're going to take the time, we're going to sit down, we're going to tell you what's going on. Here are things you need to improve on, here are things that I'm sorry, like I'm not even going to mention again, that you just need to figure this out yourself.

• 37:46Shane Parrish?

  It seems like some cases, the performance would be black and white. You burned this, you didn't cook it properly, and in some cases it'd be totally subjective.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:55Shane Parrish?

  How do you handle that?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  I mean, I think it's same thing with, you know, everything else in life, right? I mean, think about your kids. Certain things that your expectations are very black and white. You brush your teeth in the morning, you get dressed in the morning, you clean up your room in the morning, you eat dinner at night, you go to bed at night. I mean, that's black and white, but there's always things in between that make it a little bit gray. So I think we kind of look at it the same way, you know, that... If you burn something, that's pretty black and white. Again, we have to look at why. I- i- is there any reason behind it before we react? Um, you're brand new on the station. I- I have to expect that you're gonna burn some things.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  And so then that means that we gotta do a better job training you. A lot of it comes down to training as well, you know, trying to take a step back. We were just talking about this five minutes ago that, you know, somebody that we're, we're looking to hire and where, where do we put him? What do we do with him? And my whole thing now is being really cautious about not setting somebody up for failure. And I mean, obviously that, that should be plain and simple. Nobody wants to do that, but um, it's harder and harder to find really great staff. So I'd rather struggle a little bit, taking a step back than to just think that we have this amazing new Band-Aid. And the reality is it's gonna, you know, bite us in the ass later on.

• 39:22Shane Parrish?

  What would you say is the biggest misconception people have about chefs?

• 39:28Speaker 00

  I don't know. I, I think uh, there's probably a bunch out there today. Obviously, one is that, that we all eat very well. I think uh, most of us on our days off don't really wanna do too much cooking. Um, I, I think because of the um, Top Chef, Gordon Ramsay, all those kind of things, I think the perceptions that we all scream and curse and throw things. I mean, do I curse? Yes, I, I try not to curse in general. I try not to curse around my kids, but once in a while I call him a smart ass. And, and you know, that sends a message to them. It's sort of the same thing here.

• 40:07Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Again, fairly black and white in terms of the expectation. And so when we have to look in between the lines, it's, it's somewhat acceptable in my book to, to act a little differently, if that makes sense.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  I I think the other, I don't know if it's a misperception, but again, I think those those books and um that sort of like mentality is that, you know, we're all partying rock stars. And again, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think there's plenty of people that are doing that, but I think there's plenty of us that, you know, after work, we're not going out and drinking till four o'clock in the morning and we're just going home and go to bed and waking up and doing all of it again the next day. But um.

• 40:50Shane Parrish?

  What is your typical day like? Like, what time does it start here? And then what time do you kind of get out of here? And then do you have to wind down when you get home? Or is it?

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I mean, my my days have changed a little bit. Uh, I now live in the suburbs, so the commute has kind of helped with the the winding down. Um, I'm a lot better today at kind of turning off. Um, I start somewhere between eleven and twelve, depending on what's going on. Um, work all day. And then again, depending on how crazy it is, I'll be here typically till about eleven, sometimes on the weekends a little bit later. Um, I try and take two days off. And typically, I try and take Saturday, Sunday off, but um, sort of find myself uh in between uh a five day and a six day and then, you know,

• 41:40Speaker 00

  working Saturdays and then uh the next week, taking the two days off. Um, so I finish here typically around eleven, twelve, and then it's about forty-five minutes, hour commute home. So I wind down, um, and then get home, do some emails, kind of review things from the day, uh, go to bed, wake up around six thirty, and do some more emails, go to the gym, and then come here.

• 42:07Shane Parrish?

  What's your favorite thing on the menu?

• 42:08Speaker 00

  I don't have any. I I love all of them equally, just like my children. Um, I don't know. I I it really depends on what mood I'm in. Um, I certainly can never pass on a piece of pizza. Um, I can almost never pass on a french fry.

• 42:26Shane Parrish?

  Is that your go-to when you're at home?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  No, no, not at all. It's just, I mean, I guess tooting my own horn, the pizzas are pretty damn good.

• 42:34Shane Parrish?

  It is. It's amazing.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  And the french fries are pretty damn good. But um, I mean, pretty much every day I do like a a piece of fish and some vegetables. Um. And uh.

• 42:44Shane Parrish?

  Is that part of the family meal beforehand?

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And and you know, again, I I pack my day kind of snacking and and nonstop. So I I try and take um, I try and take about ten minutes at some point just to do one thing for myself. That's healthy and smart um, in that respect.

• 43:04Shane Parrish?

  What are some of the strange requests that customers have?

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know. I don't I don't think.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  I don't feel like we get that many. Um, and I think in part because the menu is so vast and um, so easily flexible. I mean, you know, gluten free, dairy free, uh, you know, so many things on the menu that that you can choose from. So a little variation is no big deal. Um, trying to think of the the weirdest thing I've been asked.

• 43:38Shane Parrish?

  Is the gluten free dairy free thing a steady or is it?

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few every night. Um, and it it's a challenge, but it's actually, um, I don't mind it by any means. I mean, we we do a veggie burger at lunch that um, over the year, I've kind of done a veggie burger for years and years now. And every restaurant's obviously a little bit, a little bit different in this last version. Um, we've made it gluten free and now we've done a dairy free bun um, and a a vegan mayo.

• 44:13Shane Parrish?

  Nice.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  So, you know, thinking about how to, how do you cater to those needs? And how do we make it even better than it was before? Uh, you know, my, my whole thing is I don't have a problem sort of catering to the needs. But if I'm gonna do it, then I gotta do it my way and just make it better than what the perception would have been. And this goes back from even, uh, I guess as far back as the Court Club when. We kind of were adamant that this wasn't going to be country club food and and Tom Clickio was the consulting chef. He hired me for it. And so we said, it's not going to be country club food. We're going to do a real restaurant. And we did. And and then because of demand, we started to see the need for the entree salads and turkey club

• 44:57Speaker 00

  and all those kind of things. I said, fine, I have no problem doing it. But, you know, the chickens for the salad are going to be organic chickens from a small farmer that we roast and we pick it and we marinate it and it's going to be amazing greens and all these different things. And the turkey club is going to be like the best turkey club using turkey that we roast every day. And I think it pays off in the long run. Again, that's that's not groundbreaking. People are doing that everywhere now. But I think at that point in time, it was it was a little bit of a challenge. And people kind of they wanted their their more, you know, deli meat version of the turkey club. And they didn't really care about freshly roasted organic chickens. They just wanted a chopped salad that was chopped really small.

• 45:42Shane Parrish?

  It seems like different cultures have different relationships with food. New York is super busy and you have almost two extremes, right? There's this sit down, social, let's celebrate and connect, or let's grab this fast food and take out and walk and eat as we go. Whereas French culture seems way more, it's only on one end of that, which is sit down and let's have this food together and let's bond over the food. Talk to me about what you want people to experience.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  I think I want them to experience essentially whatever they want. Because it's like what I said to you, it's a means to an end. I mean, if I go out with my kids, for the most part, I just want to eat and get out. I want to feed us all. I want to have something that I am excited that I spent the money on. I had a great bottle of wine. I had wonderful service. They understood that I was with two kids that were not gonna have a long attention span. Uh, they helped me make something special for them. But I got great food, real restaurant food, um, in, in the setting that I wanted. So I see the need for that. Uh, I also, there, you know, the, the odd occasion that I do date nights. I don't wanna screw with that. I, I wanna be able to take my time and relax.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  And so we try and read that as well and understand, you know, is this a business meeting? Is it, is it an occasion? And how do we alter the experience for that? Do we go fast? Do we go slow? Um, so ultimately, I think, especially in New York, you, you, you have to be flexible with that. And you have to understand that people are gonna want different things out of that experience. And, and essentially, I have no problem giving that to them.

• 47:22Shane Parrish?

  One of the things I noticed that you guys do differently that I've never seen done anywhere else before, uh, but it's probably more common than, than this. But talk to me about what goes into, I noticed when you open a, uh, when somebody orders a bottle of wine, you actually open it and taste it before it goes to the table.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:38Shane Parrish?

  How did that come about?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  They, I mean, I, I think that is common, but, um, maybe because the wine station is served front and center, you see it. Um, I think it's important. I mean, it's, you know, with the kitchens, sort of the same thing. We have, um, checkpoints or what we would call lines of defense. You know, when it's made, it's, it's tasted, it's checked, it's signed off on. Uh, when it comes up to the station, it's tasted, it's checked, it's signed off on. When it's in the window, it's checked and it's signed off on. And so you kind of do the same thing with, with the beverages, the wine. Uh, you know, you'll, you'll see the bartenders mix up a cocktail and then put a straw in and take the straw, obviously not sipping off the cocktail, but sipping it from, from the side. Um, to see that it's made right.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Because, you know, if, there's nothing worse than if you are excited about this bottle of wine and it comes to your table and it's corked. That transaction now of saying, I don't like it, makes an uncomfortable experience for the guest. So we should try and catch that beforehand. And, you know, sometimes maybe we don't, or sometimes we might not agree with, with your perception. But ultimately, if you're not happy, then we want you to be happy and we take it away. Um, but I do think it's really important to try and capture that ahead of time because. Again, you know, th- these are all parts of the transaction. And just like the the first impression of when you walk in the door, how you're greeted, all those things, then how do you get to the bar?

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Then how do you get to your table? All those parts of of the experience are a part of the transaction. So, I mean, i- it's certainly not beneficial if the steak comes out or the burger comes out improperly cooked, or the the pizza doesn't have on it what it's supposed to have on it, or the salad doesn't have what it's supposed to have, right? All those things would be detrimental to the experience. Same thing with the with the wine.

• 49:32Shane Parrish?

  I was talking to somebody about it and they were blown away. They were like, I don't know why every restaurant doesn't do this. It's because I hate it when they open a bottle of wine and they pour it in my glass. And then I have to be the one that decides for the table if this is.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  That's good to know. I I will certainly start paying more attention when I go out to eat, that's for sure.

• 49:49Shane Parrish?

  What are the things that you wish customers uh knew more about? Obviously, your attention to detail, but.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, some of that attention to detail is taken for granted. I think the sourcing, um, everything that goes into, you know, every- everything we do, um, I think is often not understood or maybe taken for granted. I mean, the the pizzas, um, the bread, the pastas, we mill almost all the flour in-house using grains from local farmers.

• 50:23Shane Parrish?

  Um, why does that matter?

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Because to me, it was part of sourcing the right product and and making the best thing that I could. Um, and I I think by doing that, it has, you know, a slightly nicer flavor. I I think there's a there's an overall benefit to it. And so to me, that was one of those attention to details. It was one of those steps that we would take as part of the business. Um, and so I think, you know, i- if you just try and compare apples to apples, well, I had a pizza at another restaurant and it was, you know, two dollars less. You you can't necessarily do that, um, you know, using using so many products from local farmers, sending a guy to the farmer's market and and paying him to walk around the farmer's market for two hours collecting

• 51:07Speaker 00

  vegetables and the the best strawberries he can get and the best herbs, and then paying for an an Uber to bring it over here and then unpack everything. It may be so much easier to have everything just shipped to the door. But that's not what we want to do. And again, I think, you know. That that can be taken for granted. People don't realize how much goes into it. Um, and I think in in general, restaurants work very hard at um trying to create good experiences and try and source proper and all those things. And I think there's a lot of restaurants that don't and and not in a negative way. It's just, again, means to an end. It's not what they want to do. Um, and I think it's very easy to to try and group apples to apples and it's not

• 51:51Speaker 00

  so easy in the restaurant business. I mean, i- if you think about your wine experience here,

• 51:57Speaker 00

  that's an extra step. It costs some money in some form or another. It it slows things down. Um, i- i- it's it's somebody's time. That's something we want to do. That's something we believe in. But, you know, you you won't see that on most occasions. You're not going to pay attention to that. And so, again, so those little things that that get taken for granted.

• 52:17Shane Parrish?

  It it's interesting because in some cases, I mean, there's a story about what you're consuming in terms of like where it came from and what went into it and the craftsmanship, which is amazing. And in some cases, it's the absence of air or awkwardness.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 52:32Shane Parrish?

  That's really interesting. But those are hard to kind of, I would imagine, educate customers on because it's the lack of a feeling, not the feeling itself.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would I would say if somebody doesn't like something, I'd rather them not like it because it's not their taste than for them to not like it because, you know, didn't meet the expectation of another restaurant they went to or something they'd heard or they think it's too expensive. You know, again, it's really hard to say that these restaurants are apples to apples. I look at prices of other restaurants and I'll say, oh, well, their their duck is the same price of ours or their duck is three dollars more or whatever. It's not fair for me to even judge that because I don't know what goes into it. I have an idea of what they're buying, but I don't know what goes into it. They could have, you know, a process that raises the price 200%.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  Um, so again, I think it's very easy for us to, to just say, well, eh eh, to, to just try and compare, just like-

• 53:34Shane Parrish?

  How subjective are the prices? Like, is it a cost plus pricing or is it?

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, pretty much everything is some kind of, you know, ca- cost plus, um, which, you know, calculates in your labor and your rent and all those things. Again, I think, you're talking about what, what the customers realize or don't realize. I mean, restaurants in general, it's a, it's a very costly business and it's getting even harder and harder and harder.

• 53:59Shane Parrish?

  What's making it harder?

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Everything from the cost of goods to the cost of labor, um, to insurance. I mean, thi- this year alone, you know, the cost of labor went up drastically, cost of insurance went up drastically. Um, cost of goods have gone up, you know, a, a marginal amount, but it's, we're, we're not, we're not doing, we're not doing a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in, in purchases. We do substantial amount. So, you add 10% onto it, it's a very big number. You add in the, the increase in minimum wage, which I totally respect and understand. Um, but it is a, it is a substantial difference. You know, if, if I was driving around in a Lamborghini, I could understand

• 54:46Speaker 00

  saying that this is an unfair variance and, and that's not the case. I think all these things are important for us to look at and understand. Um, and, and the right cost of living is valid and fair, but there's a lot of, again, sort of trying to compare apples to apples. Uh, so it's a, probably a whole nother podcast, but, you know, if you, if you think about a worker at- A local diner, a server at a local diner and what they make versus a server here, that's not apples to apples. You can't just group them as servers. If you think of a cook at McDonald's and a cook here, they can't be grouped as apples to apples.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  And we're kind of forcing ourselves to do that. I mean, a cook at a restaurant like this has, I don't know, fifty thousand dollars in school loans to pay off between college and culinary school on average.

• 55:42Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  A cook at McDonald's is not necessarily have the same thing. Um, so there's a lot of things, I think, in this industry that are getting harder and harder. And um, I think we'll see more shifts in some form or another. Um, either, you know, more restaurants closing than we want, or uh, prices going up even more and people eating out less. I'm not sure what it's gonna be yet, but um.

• 56:07Shane Parrish?

  You sense the changing kind of landscape.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, costs, costs are different. And this isn't a nonprofit. You know, I'm not doing this to get rich, but I'm also not doing it to be nonprofit. I have investors to pay back. I have, you know, friends and family to pay back and so do my fellow chefs, restaurateurs, managers, you know, who have gone out to do the same thing. And we're all griping about the same thing. In some form or another, we're in the same boat.

• 56:41Shane Parrish?

  What was the scariest moment that you've had since opening Loring Place? A moment when you thought you were gonna fail or the world seemed to be just pushing it on you? And how did you recover from that?

• 56:54Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't know if anything I would say was scary or felt failure. I think um, the hardest thing is the review process. Um, because part of you wants to just say, I'm doing what I believe in and screw everybody else. Then the other part of you says, okay, well, these guys unfortunately matter, right? People are paying attention to them. And it becomes kind of this struggle of, well, we're always trying to be perfect, whether you're a viewer or not, because we don't necessarily know who it is. We're always trying to be perfect and we always want the service to be right and the food to be right, so it doesn't matter. And then at that same token, this feeling of.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  Okay, you know, you're you're getting judged. It would be like, it would be like um going to take your SATs and your score is only based on five questions that you don't know about. Like, you you take a a test with, I don't know, two hundred questions in it, and only five of them mattered, but you don't know which five they are. So, for here, it's like, you know, we worked so hard through this process of reviews. I mean, it's, I think, almost five months, changed the menu multiple times. I mean, really, we're working hard at fine tuning everything, and ultimately, the reviews were based on a handful of dishes. And, uh, you know, we've we've gotten good reviews, and I can't complain about that,

• 58:18Speaker 00

  but there's a feeling of, well, why did we work so hard to have, you know, an amazing broccoli? Nobody talked about the broccoli. Why do we work so hard to have, uh, uh, an amazing halibut? Nobody talked about the halibut, or whatever the case was. Um, you know, you're sort of just judged on, a- again, when you're a restaurant that has forty something items, you're judged on like ten of them. It it can be hard to stomach those opinions. Um, and I I think ultimately, again, we were very happy, and I think the staff was happy. Um, but I I think it was certainly the hardest time, um, in my life in terms of really trying to stay focused, and again, go back to, like, I care about them, but I don't care about

• 59:01Speaker 00

  them. I'm doing what I believe in. I'm I'm cooking from the heart, and I'm I'm building something that the team that's here wants to be part of, and wherever the chips fall, they fall. So trying to have that mentality, but then also say, yeah, but they still matter. So, you know, gotta gotta always keep that in mind. And and it's just a, it's a struggle.

• 59:22Shane Parrish?

  They matter because they drive traffic, or they

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:25Shane Parrish?

  they determine outcomes in a way?

• 59:26Speaker 00

  I I I think both. I mean, I think, you know.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  We had plenty of chatter, we had plenty of press. But, you know, the reviews that theoretically matter, and I'm not even sure how much they matter today, given the new landscape of social media and blogs and so many other things out there. I mean, you have a social media influencer with a million followers. I would be interested to see the difference between that and the amount of subscribers that looked at XYZ Magazine's review. Yeah. Right? I mean, it just, again, hard to balance. But I do think they help to drive traffic, they help to give a little bit of sense of, not meaning, but sort of recognition.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Like, you worked really hard and here's a stamp of approval, or in some cases, a stamp of disapproval. Ultimately, it's one person's opinion, but it does make a difference. And so, I think that was the hardest thing for this. I think just getting the doors open, that whole struggle of, I mean, the construction was a beast, and it just felt like we would never get open. You know, couldn't get inspections, couldn't get gas, couldn't get construction finished up, you name it. And all the while, I'd like literally just see that, you know, proverbial bank account going lower and lower and lower, and it's like negative balance every day. Meanwhile, you can't stop what you're doing.

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  You have to keep pushing forward, spending money to train and recipe test and to get ready to open. And when you open, you open. And at that point, it's, again, now the focus is like, I gotta move away from all that negative, I gotta go back to being positive, and I gotta worry about the reviews, but I can't worry too much about the reviews. It's all like a, I think, a big head game. When are you happiest? When am I happiest?

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  When I'm here, I'm happiest when I've created a great experience for a guest or an employee, an employee that, you know, will say, "Thank you for cooking next to me", or "I'm really excited I got to work on that today", or "That was a great event", whatever it is, getting that interaction, or a server coming over and saying, "I'm so, I loved waiting on your friends", or "I loved waiting on that table",

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  I think those things certainly make me happy, and I think, obviously, the instant gratification of somebody saying, "Wow, that was the best, blah, blah, blah", or "I gotta tell you, you know, this is my fourth visit here, and each time it gets better", something like that. And then, I think, when I'm not here, it's when I'm able to kind of just turn off and be with my family and not have this constant hamster wheel running in the back of my mind. I think that's a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure, thank you.

• 1:02:30Shane Parrish?

  Hey guys, this is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com/podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G dot com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for listening.