E206 - Jahnavi Harrison: Living a Life of Devotion & Embracing Your Voice

Jahnavi Harrison is a Grammy-nominated artist, musician, and practitioner of Bhakti Yoga who has spent her life exploring sound as a path to the divine. Raised at Bhaktivedanta Manor in England, she grew up inside one of the world's most dedicated devotional communities, and in this conversation we trace how that formation shaped her relationship with voice, identity, approval, and what it means to offer your life as a prayer. What We Dive Into: 1. Most of us were told at some point to be quiet, to sound better, or to wait until we were good enough. That conditioning runs deep. Reclaiming the voice, whether through kirtan, song, or simply speaking truthfully, is one of the most direct paths back to a self that stopped performing and started expressing. 2. Bhakti is not a feeling you arrive at and maintain. It is a daily offering, something you return to moment by moment, especially when you have drifted. Jahnavi's framing is simple: make space for prayer in whatever form feels alive to you, and that space will become a source of nourishment that compounds over time. 3. The desire to be accepted can masquerade as discernment, as wisdom, even as calling. Jahnavi traces how much of her own journey involved slowly distinguishing the voice of genuine inner knowing from the much louder voice that simply wanted to be liked. That distinction is not resolved once. It is worked on for life. Know Thyself, but not by yourself. A guided space to return home to yourself. https://www.knowthyselfcollective.com ✨THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: https://www.timeline.com/KNOWTHYSELF Save 20% off your Mitopure® Gummies https://www.mudwtr.com/knowthyself Use code KNOWTHYSELF for up to 43% off sitewide ___________ 00:00 Intro 01:36 What Devotional Music Actually Is 03:12 Sound as a Direct Path to the Divine 06:42 Sound as the First and Last Sense 09:15 The Sensitivity of Sound and Its Transformative Power 12:28 Why We Lose Our Voices: Fear, Shame, and the Voice Unsung 16:22 Finding Your Voice and Speaking Your Truth 20:17 Discerning Your Own Voice from the Noise of Others 23:46 The Missed Flight: Choosing Calling Over Convention 29:00 Life as an Offering: Dharma and Letting Go of Outcomes 31:54 The Intelligence of the Heart in Bhakti 36:22 Nature, Silence, and the Inner Life 42:39 Prayer vs. Meditation: Are They the Same? 48:32 Prayer as Relationship, Not Request 57:54 Kirtan, Mantra, and the Dissolution of Self 1:03:25 Kirtan at a Funeral: Sound as Communal Holding 1:06:15 Losing and Reclaiming Faith: The Reckoning with Tradition 1:13:33 The Role of Trusted Counsel Through Doubt 1:15:28 The Grammys and the Tension of Devotional Art in Industry 1:21:37 Fame, Ego, and Staying on the Right Track 1:25:40 Expanding Beyond Tradition: The Rise Album with Willow 1:35:36 Art as Revolution and Service 1:38:31 The Coldplay Concert and the Power of Mass Gathering 1:43:17 Current Projects and Dreaming Bigger 1:51:37 Closing Message: Make Space for Prayer Every Day ___________ ✨MORE FROM JAHNAVI ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jahnavi_harrison ↳YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/JahnaviHarrisonMusic ↳https://www.jahnavimusic.com 📜MORE FROM KNOW THYSELF ↳Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4bZMq9l ↳Apple: https://apple.co/4iATICX ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ ↳TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@andreduqum ↳Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/knowthyselfbyandreduqum/ ↳https://knowthyselfpodcast.com/ 👁️MORE FROM ANDRÉ ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@andreduqum ↳Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/know-thyself-podcast ↳Book recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I was at the Grammys.

• 0:00André Duqum?

  You were nominated.

• 0:01Speaker 02

  John A. V. Harrison.

• 0:02Speaker 03

  For Best New Album.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  It does contradict what the values of devotional music are. I was like, does this fit together? Or should I even be here? It can create so much dissonance internally. To be accepted, to be approved of. When I was young, I struggled with that. When we're children, we usually sing quite freely. But then we learn how you're meant to be. You can't sing, be quiet. Am I acceptable? Sound can transform your consciousness, carry you somewhere. And yet we got disconnected from it. Just open your heart to it. There's immediate connection. It can hold whatever prayer or emotion that's there within the heart. Everyone can access that. It doesn't require special skill.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  You're just offering your voice and helping others be lifted.

• 0:51André Duqum?

  Have there been moments where you've really lost faith in God and self?

• 0:57Speaker 00

  This is something I haven't really articulated publicly, but.

• 1:07André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Know thyself podcast. Our guest today is a practitioner of bhakti yoga, a Grammy nominated artist, musician, writer, and somebody who's world renowned for her mantra meditation music. I've loved listening to her art over the years. And I would love to welcome John A. V. Harrison to the show.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:31André Duqum?

  Thank you for being here.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Very grateful to be here with you. Thank you, Andre.

• 1:34André Duqum?

  The pleasure is mine. I, there's a lot that I want to dive into today. I've, like I said, I've really loved your music over the years. And for people that aren't as familiar with bhakti or devotional music, not just as a form of sound, but also as a devotional way of being and prayer. Could you, how do you describe the difference between traditional music and what is devotional music?

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to kind of genres of music, we're used to defining things by the sound of the music. Like, do they use this kind of drums? Or what kind of rhythms or instrumentation? And when it comes to devotional music, it's something deeper because it's actually, I mean, there are external aspects as well, according to different traditions that might, you know, the instruments you might use. But it's really the intention of the music. So devotional music is about offering that music as prayer, as praise of, you know, higher power of God, or, you know, expressing devotion by, you know,

• 2:44Speaker 00

  even just speaking, singing the names of God. So specifically the tradition of kirtan that I've grown up with is repeating beloved names of God. And yeah, it's a very joyful. Joyful and also, you know, it can hold whatever prayer or, you know, emotion that's there within the heart. It's not, it's, yeah, for all times, all times and moments.

• 3:13André Duqum?

  How do you understand sound as like a technology almost to like connect with the divine? As one of the most ancient forms of it? How do you see that? Because anyone who's gone to a kirtan or practiced using their voice in that setting feels the meditative aspect of it, connecting to a grander field or source or life, however you want to use that term, you know?

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, my understanding is that, you know, everything emanates from this supreme being. So he, she are the source of all sound or every element, you know, has emanates from that source. So particularly when it comes to invoking, you know, sacred sound, whether that be prayer or actually the divine names, the idea is that there's no difference between a divine being or person and the sound. So as a vehicle for prayer and connection, it's just sort of an immediate thing.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Like you just invoke that name or that prayer and there's immediate connection, which is, it's amazing as a concept. And I think it's something that is hard to articulate and convey without having a personal experience of it. It's a very, very personal, individual experience that you have to have by kind of immersing in that. Yeah.

• 4:49André Duqum?

  It feels like music is the greatest unifying force.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:53André Duqum?

  For all of humanity, you know, it crosses all borders of language and race. And do you think there's actually something different in the structure? Like you listen to like an 808 versus someone singing to God. There's something in the resonance that really carries over vibrationally.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 5:09André Duqum?

  And it sounds like you feel like when evoking these names and singing these songs, you're like actually directly connecting to that, what you're praying to, singing to.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yes, I do believe that. And I, and of course, you know, I believe that there's, there's different frequencies and resonance of different kinds of sounds. I think we can feel it in the, in the body or, you know, it inspires different kinds of thoughts and actions. But yeah, when, when you're in a space of, I feel like there's so much that we, we kind of experience it intuitively, you know? When you come in, imagine you come into a sacred space, like a place of worship, whether it be a church or any kind of space of prayer. Immediately there's like a frequency, a resonance where that, that type of vibration is being expressed there all the time.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  And you kind of encounter it, even if someone wasn't to kind of explain to you that that's what's going on. So I think we are, yeah, we are vibrational beings and we pick up on these things. We pick up on a lot also just moving through the world. The sounds and desires and, you know, intentions that are kind of, I don't know, just all around us. Like when you live in an urban environment, for example, I feel like you're really, depending how porous of a person you feel you are, but there's, there's a lot in the air that's, you know, not seen with the eyes, but felt.

• 6:42André Duqum?

  Yeah, and many spiritual traditions, it feels like the sensory world or like it's like the Maya in which you're here to transcend. I, there's many different texts. One that I love is the Radiant Sutras, which explores a more feminine perspective of using the senses as doorways into the divine. You know, how we can use our, our sensory organ of sight, not as something that is only viewing the world as like an illusion, but as actually to be pierced through deeper into the divine.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:17André Duqum?

  And, and sound, you know, and hearing being one of the most immediate forms, right? It's like the first sign of life, a baby cries and here they are, right?

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Exactly. It would kind of, we wake up in the morning usually with sound. And, you know, I've often heard that when we're about to leave this, leave the body at the moment of death, that sound is the last sense to shut down, even when we can no longer, you know, see or speak, that there's still ability to hear. Yeah.

• 7:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, I had an amazing conversation with Dr. May Ray, who's a Yale trained scientist and classical pianist.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 7:58André Duqum?

  Such a fascinating conversation. But yeah, she talked about sound and in hearing being the last sense that leaves us as we go to bed and the first thing when we wake up in the morning. Also, and the first, you know, when we are even in the womb and reacting to sounds and classical music and how that entrains the baby into different neurological states. And like you said, last before we go. And so sound is something that we almost take for granted. I have a dear friend of mine who's been struggling with some challenges with her hearing. She's been going deaf and the amount of grief that causes, we don't just take it for granted that we can just hear everything around us and the birds and the sound of the guitar string and these different frequencies that for people that are going deaf

• 8:43André Duqum?

  or hard of hearing can't pick up anymore.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:46André Duqum?

  And you realize how, what a precious gift sound, sound is.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Truly.

• 8:49André Duqum?

  And I think everybody probably listening to this conversation plays music throughout their days, you know?

• 8:55Speaker 00

  I mean, they're listening right now. It's the medium of sound.

• 8:58André Duqum?

  Right.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  It's, it's so incredible how, you know, through the, through that medium of sound, we can, we can tune into a conversation that's happening, you know, somewhere on the other side of the world. And yeah, it's, it's incredible. Yeah.

• 9:16André Duqum?

  And it's, it's fascinating how different sound, like we spoke to, evokes different things. I think leaf blower should be banned from the.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Yes, please.

• 9:25André Duqum?

  It's the hot take.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:26André Duqum?

  I don't think it's hot at all. I think everyone agrees.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Yes, absolutely.

• 9:31André Duqum?

  But so like if that's something on one end of the spectrum, you know, to kirtan and meditation music and mantra.

• 9:41André Duqum?

  Can be on the other side. As somebody who's spent their life so deeply steeped in music and and sound as a technology, what is your relationship to the sensitivity of sound? Even before we go into the music and everything, it feels like as you raise your sensitivity in conversation with another person, you can feel where something's coming from or you craft your environment to be conducive towards more harmony. And I'm just curious your thoughts on sensitivity as a sound for you.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't, I don't know that I'm any more sensitive than the average person or the average sensitive person. I think I'm a little sensitive. But I would say that sound definitely, I, I have experienced since a young age, how it kind of can transform your transform your consciousness, carry you somewhere, you know, even let's take out the spiritual music equation. But I remember just, you know, in those, those days before we had smartphones and other things to distract us, just going into my room, putting some music on and really being present and listening. I'm just remembering now putting on like Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday,

• 10:56Speaker 00

  and just listening to the sound of the voice and going where it carries and be, and becoming so absorbed in that. And yeah, it conveys emotion and a story and someone's, the experiences they've lived, especially the human voice, I guess I'm referring to.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  But I would say in, in times especially of, of stress and

• 11:26Speaker 00

  sorrow or despair, I've experienced sound to be the most powerful tonic or medicine to, to, to lift me somewhere else. I mean, Kirtan especially, but other things too.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, during, during the COVID lockdowns, I remember there were certain things I was just listening all day long, just on repeat, just beautiful crystal bowls and sounds of nature. It just, I, it felt like I was sort of hanging on to it like a lifeline more than what I would usually experience.

• 12:03André Duqum?

  I think I first listened more of your music when you did Rise with Willow.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, which was in that, born from that time.

• 12:12André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:13André Duqum?

  Yeah, interesting. I mean, Gengera is probably like my, one of my most replayed songs on that. So good. And I, I agree. I think a lot of us know the importance of music and sound and how it's impacted our life.

• 12:29André Duqum?

  When it comes to our own actual voice and using it, whether it be speaking our truth or actually just singing, tend to have a lot of fear and shame around it and constriction, just in general. How have you seen that? Because obviously you've been in the space for a while. You've had your own personal journey. And I'm sure during Kirtan, people also struggle with.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 12:50André Duqum?

  You know, using their voice.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 12:52André Duqum?

  What are your thoughts on, on that?

• 12:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I feel like there's probably voice teachers or people who are more engaged with helping people sort of in a, you know, systematic way, bring forward their voice, who probably have a lot of insight to share. My sort of anecdotal experiences that a lot of people have either had like a direct or an indirect sort of judgment they've absorbed. Or someone directly telling them when they were young, like, you don't, you, you can't sing or, or telling them not to sing or be quiet. Or there's just, for some reason, you know, because when, when we're children, we, we usually sing quite freely. We, you know, I was saying to my husband the other day,

• 13:37Speaker 00

  we were just watching a little baby on the beach and we were just saying, it's so funny how when we're kids, instead of just walking, we often run or we dance in a certain direction rather than just walking. And we might sing or speak or go back and forth between the two. But then we sort of learn how you're meant to be, you know, when you grow up and you shouldn't sing unless it's in these times. And I think also since the, maybe it's been about 20 years since those, the TV kind of talent shows became so popular. And then I feel like there's increased sense of like, oh, I have to be talented to, to kind of share my voice.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  And so much disconnection from just the communal space of collective song together, a lot because of, I guess,

• 14:28Speaker 00

  you know, a lot of times that experience was in a, in a religious context, perhaps. And many people don't have that as a, as a, you know, a kind of a live space in their life for, for different reasons. So I think it's, I think it's really vital to, to use our voices.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  And beyond just the confidence to, you know, to sing solo or, you know, of course, singing in the shower, everyone should do that. But I don't, I don't think everyone has to be, you know, confident to sing in front of, you know, a group of people. But singing together in a group, it's just, it's, it's life giving. And I wish, or I, I, I believe that everyone can experience and access that if they, if they have an openness to it. Because it doesn't require

• 15:29Speaker 00

  special skill, you know, just sort of to open your heart to it. And I think that, you know, whether it be Kirtan or other kinds of singing circles, choirs, those group experiences. Yeah, if you're listening to this and you've never tried something like that, I would wholeheartedly advocate for that. Yeah.

• 15:52André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think so many of us grew up in an environment where love was conditional and fear of judgment was so baked into how we show up in life and what we're.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 16:02André Duqum?

  All forms of expression.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do I sound good? Am I acceptable? Yeah.

• 16:10André Duqum?

  Is it just a process of using your voice? Is it like to get more comfortable? Whether it be singing or like I said, really actually just using your voice to say what's true for you, what boundaries you need to set in your life.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's all, I think it's practice, like, like everything. You know, if anyone is familiar with my story a little bit, or if they aren't, I, I would identify as a shy person. An introvert, definitely. And when I was young, I was very shy and I, I, I struggled to speak plainly or just be direct and just to be decisive, you know, all these things that kind of are part of just being confident and being just happy to be who you are and express that. And then likewise, you know, my, my father sings extremely beautifully. My mom sings beautifully.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  And I, and I always loved music and I loved to sing, but I didn't feel confident to kind of use my voice in a particular way. So my, my journey to, to grow in that confidence has really been about baby steps. It's just finding the edge of what feels just a little uncomfortable and stretching a little bit. And it, and, and you find that it kind of keeps getting bigger and bigger or wider and wider, you know, what you feel comfortable with.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  I think, I think it's an important thing to, to test out because you know, you mentioned being, being confident to speak freely. And I think as I started to become more comfortable to use my singing voice, that seemed to have a direct relationship with my confidence to, you know, just speak up more willingly. And, and sometimes they're in different places. Like I, I still feel much more confident now to sing, but sometimes saying something is still difficult. So, but I think the two kind of, you know, they have a relationship to each other.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  So wherever you can kind of push a little bit out of the comfort zone. Yeah, that's been my experience.

• 18:30André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's one of those muscles that are a bit more invisible, right?

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:34André Duqum?

  You can see someone's muscle at the gym quite clearly.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:38André Duqum?

  But it is such a vulnerable thing.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  It is. There's some kind of a, a, it, it connects to the heart. Like we feel kind of naked, the sound of our voice. And I'm, I find people's voices, both singing voice and speaking voice is just so fascinating. You know, just how every face is unique. Every voice is just completely unique. It's a unique instrument.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  And I think, yeah, it's just

• 19:13Speaker 00

  being able to, being able to feel comfortable to use it. It just feels like making the most of the, the body that we've, we've been given to use in this, this lifetime. Yeah.

• 19:27André Duqum?

  It feels like there's a direct analogy from that on an individual level to the path that you walk in life. Where we're all born into a life that, for better or worse, has a sort of direction cut out for us, usually ending in some sort of.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Expectations.

• 19:45André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:45André Duqum?

  Economic machine of how we're gonna show up in our job and career. And

• 19:51André Duqum?

  and if we're all honest with ourself, our actual inclinations will usually drive us in a direction with more uncertainty. It's not as clear. It's more circuitous and and that journey of seeing what's true and what's yours versus what is other noise, family, society, culture, is a, is a lifelong path. And I know you've been on your own journey, you know, with that as, as we've all, all have. How have you clarified what your voice is versus what is another voice that sounds like it's yours?

• 20:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yes. I'm still working on that a lot. Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult. A friend of mine that's, I think she's really wise. She told me many years ago that. There's different voices internally, and you should learn to distinguish them as actually sounding like different people because they have different sort of tone in the way they speak. You know, like the voice of the mind tends to be sort of pulling between one thing and another. In Sanskrit tradition, they'll say, you know, sankalpa, vikalpa,

• 21:10Speaker 00

  like, I want this, I don't want that. And she was sort of pointing to me, you know, towards you have to kind of hear that voice of, you know, the soul or the self, which is normally quite peaceful. It normally kind of has a more of a clarity of where to go, but it gets very drowned out by all these other things. I found it really beautiful, the way she described it to me. But I would say, you know, that was many years ago. I'm still working on it. My mind is, yeah, it's, you know, it's, I think all of us benefit from learning about the mind,

• 21:54Speaker 00

  what it is, what it isn't, how to tune out, you know, that noise of the inner voice that... Or you were also talking about not just the inner voices, but voices of others and their expectations. That's definitely something I've also been challenged by a lot. Yeah, I don't know what to say. It's challenging. But I do, I do think that having a meditation practice, being in community with others, you know, whether that just be having a couple good friends that you really can open up to in a very honest way and be a reflective space for each other.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  And even practices like journaling, I think, I feel like it sounds like a cliche because these things are kind of just... You know, it's like when you're on social media, it's like, oh, try journaling. But, I mean, I've been writing since I was a teenager, and I have so many days that I don't do it, so many sort of seasons of life where I don't do it. But I find that when I do it, it really helps me to clarify those, what the inner voice is saying. Yeah. Or what to tune out, you know, from others. I mean, so many life decisions we make based on advice or opinions of others. That's at least been my journey, especially earlier on.

• 23:23André Duqum?

  Yeah, because that hardwiring to fit in with the tribe is so baked in to our nervous system.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Be accepted, to be approved of, to not, like, color outside the lines, you know? Yeah.

• 23:39André Duqum?

  And it takes courage to color outside of the lines, you know, what's set for you in the coloring book that was handed to you, so to speak.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:47André Duqum?

  And to ground it into a little bit more practical, like you, I heard this, like, the story of you having a literal visceral example of this when you chose to miss a flight that was going to take you, so to speak, in a different path.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:02André Duqum?

  I think we all have our own versions of that.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:05André Duqum?

  But how, when you've tried to discern what's authentic desire versus what's being driven for performance or conformity, that sounds like that was a great example.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think part of it is just intuition, or, you know, what we call intuition, sort of having a sense of something. And I mean, saying that, I've made a lot of decisions on that intuitive basis, but then later doubted it, thinking, was it really intuition? Or was it, you know, was I avoiding something? Was I fearful of something? I almost feel like it's sort of a tuning that we have to continue kind of calibrating throughout life. But I think what has helped me is having...

• 24:59Speaker 00

  I think, I mean, your podcast is called Know Thyself. The more I know myself, the more I kind of, I'm familiar with my patterns of behavior. Like, why might I be afraid? Why might I be avoiding this? Or why might this person's opinion be weighing very heavily for me? It just helps to, I guess, see more clearly where you are more just being kind of pushed, you know, or pulled by something that is not sort of your highest integrity,

• 25:44Speaker 00

  you know, what you would want to kind of make decisions and make choices from a very grounded space. But yeah, you know, sometimes, like, that decision to miss a flight and, you know... Sometimes we can look back in hindsight and be like, well, that was the right decision. But in the moment, you do it, and the next day, you could be like, what did I do? Was it right? Like, it felt right in the moment?

• 26:14André Duqum?

  What was it? So what happened in that moment?

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Well, I was on my way to fly to start a job as an editor of a magazine, which was, it was a really great opportunity. It was an arts magazine. I'd been studying dance and music for many years, and I was a writer, so it was kind of a perfect fit. But I had, so I was sort of set to be taking this space of like, almost arts journalism, you know, and rather than being on the stage, I was on the other side of it, commenting on it or interviewing artists and, yeah, being the commentator rather than the person doing the thing.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  And I'd had this opportunity in the meantime to join a band. I was playing violin. My singing was sort of just... You know, I'd always kind of sung in different ways. I grew up singing, but not, not in that kind of... It didn't really come into the realm of what you could say, performance outside of the devotional music offerings. And that was starting to emerge a little bit. And I guess I just felt connected to a sense of calling and purpose that felt, I don't even know if I would have called it that. I just felt, I felt alive. It was almost like a tuning to something

• 27:42Speaker 00

  that makes you feel alive, more alive. And so that's why I stayed. I felt like there's, there's something that's meant to unfold here. But yeah, that was a, that was a scary decision, particularly because there's so much adrenaline. You know, there's always that thing when you have to leave for the airport and you're checking the time, and then you know, if you let it go past this amount of, like, you've missed the flight, it's done. And I sat there allowing that to happen. I never do stuff like that. So, yeah.

• 28:21André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's always easier to connect the dots looking back.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 28:25André Duqum?

  In the moment, it seems like it could, you know, we're magnifying on that example, you know, in that moment. But of course, we have so many different examples and moments in our life where life, relationships, work is like pulling us in one direction, and we have the opportunity to check in and see is that direction that I want to move in, and that feels true. And like you said, we have so many of these voices that aren't always our own. They can masquerade as our own voice of reason.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:54André Duqum?

  And we think that that's what we want. Later, to come find out years down the road, it wasn't actually, nonetheless, it's what you had to go through, so.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Definitely. And I have noticed a tendency within myself, which I'm trying to, I guess, unwind or, you know, refine this a bit, which is tending to look back at those decisions. And if the outcome has been, you know, good, quote unquote, good, like, people say you're successful or something, then I'll reflect on that as a good decision or that was the right decision. But if I can't find that evidence in the way that I think, you know, it should be manifest, then I'll think, yeah, maybe that wasn't the right decision. But I think that's still very much

• 29:44Speaker 00

  an external kind of... I think it's a bit on the surface because I think there's so much we don't really know about why, you know? I don't, I don't think that this life was the beginning of the story. It was the beginning of a chapter of a story, and there's more to come. And from a, from a bhakti perspective, I think my understanding is that a higher goal is just really to try to offer every decision as an offering, you know, as a devotional offering, every day as an offering.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Because there's going to be ups and downs and moments that it looks like we took the right turn that turns out not to be. Like, it's so winding, the path of life, with so many unexpected things along the way. But we do our best. And, yeah, that offering part kind of offers, offers up to, you know, to that which, all of the, all of the ways that we are not in control.

• 31:00André Duqum?

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• 31:45André Duqum?

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• 31:56André Duqum?

  Yeah, we don't, we don't always want to admit to ourself to the degree we're actually kind of free falling through life and we don't have control to the way we would like to assert.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:06André Duqum?

  And we spoke to that, kind of that difference between Dharma and karma, like the path that's set out for you that is easier to follow in some sense, but ends up being harder down the road versus the other path that maybe seems more harder in the moment, but actually will lead to a more fulfilling way of being down, down the road. And I think on that journey, discerning that voice and, and the innumerable forces that we have within us, there is a distinct difference between the feeling from the mind and the heart. And in the devotional practice in Bhakti,

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:42André Duqum?

  very much so in the heart. You know, I think on the path to self-realization, there's so many beautiful paths, I personally probably resonate a little bit more with the Yana path, which is kind of more like a piercing intellect. And that kind of creates a certain type of person. Bhakti people are typically just very sweet because they're spending so much time in that prayer and the heart. And I'm curious your thoughts on the intelligence of the heart, because we don't always think of the heart as like a means to know, to check in which direction to move in life. And we live in a quite intellectual society.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:21André Duqum?

  And I think Bhakti is, is like returning in many ways to the intelligence of the heart.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  I, I've learned a lot of, you know, concepts through songs because I grew up singing these traditional devotional songs. And the word mana is used, which could, there are specific Sanskrit terms for all these, you know, aspects of consciousness, you know, the buddhi, the manas, et cetera. But very often in these, these songs or poems, that, that word is used, which could, you could describe as the mind or the heart. And I always found that interesting that they're kind of, it's, it's, it's being referred to as one thing, the mind and the heart, not, not sort of the

• 34:15Speaker 00

  brain, you know? But yes, the, the question was about the intellect.

• 34:25André Duqum?

  Yeah, and the intelligence of the heart, how the heart often knows in ways a rational mind can fight with.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, what's to say? I definitely think that's true, that the mind can also play tricks on us. I mean, you know, I, I, I think the path of, of reason and, and intellect is, is completely valid and it's a, you know, it's a, it's a tried and true spiritual, a path of inquiry. But I think, I mean, at least from the Bhakti perspective, you know, in the Bhagavad Gita, it comes back to about being about a loving relationship with a supreme being. And there's, there's a real simplicity in that as well.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  We can, we can know, know a lot about a lot of things and still be a little disconnected from that space. So I think ideally there, there in relationship and working together. Yeah.

• 35:28André Duqum?

  Yeah, we do live in perhaps the most individualistic culture, which separates like modern science and is the way of cartesianly splitting matter into observable phenomena. You know, we bared many fruits and technology from that. And it's also been a huge reason why anxiety, suffering, suicide, loneliness are an epidemic in today's day and age. And many different traditions have different conceptions of even where the self is located, like we tend to, I think in the West, see the self like located as like a locust of thought and emotions, like a tiger crouching behind our eyebrow, you know?

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:08André Duqum?

  Whereas many different African traditions and Hindu traditions like see the heart as more your center of being.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's definitely, I guess where I've conceived of it being in the heart.

• 36:20André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, and it's, I know certainly in my life and it sounds like with just getting to hear a little bit more of your story, like the many innumerable, innumerable practices that we can partake in life that allow us to just get a little bit quiet and take some space from what's known, allows the unknown to kind of percolate and like come up to the surface and then get ideas and thoughts. And it sounds like writing has been a huge practice outside of music to let that come up and out.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, writing and I think for me as also spending time in nature.

• 36:58André Duqum?

  Which you grew up in.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did. I mean, I grew up in a, it was, you know, semi suburban and, and also kind of rural, I guess, kind of like here in, in Topanga, like you can drive down the hill and, you know, suddenly there's shops and houses and everything. But yeah, we had beautiful fields and forests within a very short walk from the house and, and, and the place that I grew up, Bhaktivedanta Manor. I mean, I went to school there, we were there every day. It was 80 acres of beautiful gardens and forests and there was a farm. And so being in relationship with nature was very, very natural. Natural, that's the right word, right?

• 37:42Speaker 00

  Natural to be in connection with nature. I think, yeah, we, we, speaking, going back to kind of a resonance and a frequency, I think nature, you know, whether it's just being in connection with the sounds, even if you're not, even if you're not physically in a, a natural environment, even just hearing the sound of water or, you know, walking by a river, a lake, being, touching a tree, I think it, nature is, it, we are, we are always in relationship, even if we've, we've become very disconnected from that. And it kind of reminds us of, of things that we may be not paying attention to.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Or like you said, allows things to come up to the surface that may be a little covered over or drowned out for different reasons. Yeah.

• 38:34André Duqum?

  We've largely as a society really lost connection to nature in a big way. You know, the light pollution that stops us from seeing the cosmos at night, the cement, concrete jungles that block us from feeling dirt and earth and what that does to us on a biological and energetic level could go on for days around that. But there is something really reassuring that it's not going anywhere and we can go connect to it.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  We hope it's not going anywhere. I mean.

• 39:07André Duqum?

  Yeah, well, at least we have the ability to.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, we have the ability, but, but I think, yeah, we have to also, I don't know, I just keep thinking like, how can we collectively protect that more? Anyway, sorry to interrupt you. It's, I just heard that there's, you know, half of, I mean, I'm from England and half of England is in a drought at this time. And there's wildfires all over Europe, which is very unusual. You know, I know it's not an unusual thing to happen out in California. But yeah, anyway.

• 39:41André Duqum?

  Yeah. It's, it's interesting, the connection there between like the Oxford Dictionary definition of nature literally separates humans from nature. It's like humans, it's like the natural world and all plant, animal life as opposed to humans and their creations. Like we've, in the definition of what it means to, of what nature is, separated ourselves from it, which is asinine. It's, it's wild.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is interesting.

• 40:09André Duqum?

  And but again, I do think the, the reassuring reminder is that what we often perceive as an existential calamity in our life can be like effortlessly remediated or remedied by a walk in nature. Like we forget what hearing the songs of bird and, and the winter trees does to us.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Yes, fully. Yeah, I was living in, I was living in Manhattan for a couple of years and I felt like, you know, like the country girl comes to the, the city. And I was living in the Lower East Side and it was extremely loud. And I was just, yeah, talk about like, like intense waves of just like humanity, just everything crashing together. And I used to go for a walk down to the East River or to the Hudson and just to, I'd just walk, to walk, to, to, you know, feel the air, but to be by the river for a short time and come back, I would just feel so much better.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think finding ways to, to bring that into our day to day, even if you, even if you do live in an urban environment.

• 41:33André Duqum?

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• 42:41André Duqum?

  How do you, how do you think of prayer and meditation as separate things? Because you spoke about bhakti being inherently relational. Again, we've lost connection to nature and the way we used to relate to it and evolve to. And I think many people, you know, mindfulness has become a trillion dollar industry, which has its pros and its cons, like anything. But prayer, from a secular sense, has often been related to like it's a, it's an asking of things. You know, like, I want a new BMW.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. Please help me pass this exam. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, for me, growing up, prayer and meditation were practically synonymous. You know, meditation was prayer because you're, to meditate is to focus your attention, absorb your attention on something, or to become still in one's, you know, focus or attention. So from a bhakti perspective, meditation will tend to be, you know, meditating on the object of love, which is

• 43:56Speaker 00

  that supreme person, or maybe you're offering a particular service or prayer, and so your absorption and your meditation will be there, ideally, or at least practicing to be. And yeah, it's been, I think, both a really positive. I mean, I can't, I wouldn't say anything negative. I think the, the growth of interest in mindfulness, sort of as a general idea of, you know, practices that help to, to calm, to clear the mind, to learn how to train the mind, to be, to have, yeah, it's like, like going to the gym, you know, like actually understanding how we can,

• 44:43Speaker 00

  we can be the, the driver of thoughts, rather than kind of just being at the mercy of the mind. I think those are, it's, it's so important. And I would say, in, in one sense, in a sort of bhakti environment, maybe we didn't get that kind of instruction so much because there's an assumption that, you know, you'll just sort of become absorbed in, in love and prayer and, you know, and sometimes you're like, God, this mind is like really difficult to, to know how to, you know, to, to control. But I think, yeah, it's, it's difficult because mindfulness inherently,

• 45:22Speaker 00

  it's able to be secular much more easily. And I think that's, it's much more accessible for the majority of people. Like you said, a lot, a lot of people have a conception of prayer as asking for something. And a lot of people have negative, also, a lot of people have a negative relationship with the idea of prayer, also because of perhaps negative religious experiences that are usually more on a human, you know, level, things in community and judgments and whatever

• 45:57Speaker 00

  may come up in relation to that idea. So I think sometimes having new experiences of, of prayer, or maybe a first experience, you know, for some people, I meet a lot of people who are like, yeah, I, I never really prayed. I don't know what that is, especially from, you know, this, you know, within the, within the bhakti kind of perspective, it's not wrong to pray and ask for something. But they'll sort of say, well, but the highest level of prayer is to ask to have

• 46:36Speaker 00

  the privilege to be of service to that divine person who is the object of our, of our love and prayer. So it's sort of like, you know, let me love you, let me serve you, and please give me whatever you think is best. But I think a lot, a lot of people are not introduced to prayer of that, of that nature. Maybe, maybe we also don't talk about it commonly in society so much.

• 47:06André Duqum?

  Yeah, it feels like a pretty big difference between what a lot of the Abrahamic faiths is related to as prayer and some of the eastern traditions and how they relate to it.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:20André Duqum?

  And I mean, it's funny enough, I, I get to explore so many conversations on this podcast where we explore like the Gnostic origins of like who, who the people were at the start of a lot of these religions that then became businesses, you know? And, and it's a lot more similar, you know, I think from the eastern religions, when you do that.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, there's bhakti, there's sort of a wellspring of bhakti, I think, in every religious tradition, because ultimately about expressing love for, for God, however you conceive of that divine being.

• 49:27André Duqum?

  And I know my personal life, so much of like suffering that I've experienced has been as a direct byproduct of focusing on self so much. It's something that just being in the act of service, where you have less self-consciousness, you know, that brings a lot of joy to yourself. And yeah, that, that quality of seva, you know, and that quality of, of living life as an offering. And what bhakti does, I think, so well is help you orient towards that space of, of giving.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:57André Duqum?

  And that's why I think so many people in the bhakti tradition, like I said, have this like sweetness about them, you know, they just feel often like more joyful, very smiley, you know? And that's a beautiful way to live life. But I think a lot of times, we think we know what we want so much, and not just like, we don't often ask, what does life want of us, right? How can we be used by life in a great way? And do you, is there, is there a particular song or mantra that's like really connected you with, with that, that aspect of being used as a vessel for the divine as opposed to a kind of egocentric, you know, perspective? I'm sure there's many.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's many. I mean, growing up, you know, for people that don't know, I grew up in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, which is colloquially known as Hare Krishna, because that's what we sing. So they're like, yeah, they're singing that all the time. So the Hare Krishna mantra, the idea of, you know, there's obviously different kind of conceptions of, of what it means. It's literally different names for, for the divine. But the overall prayer is, please use me in your service, you know, use me as you will. But the, a song that just came to mind as

• 51:25Speaker 00

  you were asking the question was one that starts,

• 51:43Speaker 00

  so the, the first line, manasa, deha, geha, mind, body, and soul. Everything that I have, everything that I, everything I own and everything that I am, I offer in your service. It's a beautiful song written by a poet saint called Bhakti Vinod Takur. And I grew up with his songs being sung a lot as well. We would sing them in school, like before that we started the lessons for the day. And I think that's the beauty of,

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Poetry, songs, they kind of, in a nugget form, give us sort of an orientation. I mean, we experience that just with like regular secular music. Like you just listen to something and you'll kind of feel a certain way and be turned towards a certain kind of mode or an idea, whatever that may be. And so, yeah, in exactly the same way, it kind of, from the author who has written the lyrics, their prayer and their intention can kind of fall in step with them or experience a little drop of what their prayer is.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  And I've found that to be a really, a really vital aspect of what spirituality is for me is to read, you know, whether it be poets and songwriters from the tradition I grew up with or of many other traditions. Yeah, that's what I connect to deeply.

• 53:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, thank you for sharing. That was beautiful. It's like honey. It's so good. That prayer of like to have your mind and your body and your vessel be used for the divine, I feel like directly gets around our rational mind, which wants to logically know what's gonna happen in life.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:53André Duqum?

  Yeah, it sounds like so much of Sanskrit and some of these early forms of language had a much more expansive way of, like the vocabulary for the inner world. You know, it's like the analogy is this, the Eskimo has a thousand names for snow.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:13André Duqum?

  You know? And in these Vedic traditions, they have so much to steep in exploring the inner realms, whereas the Western language has such articulate vocabulary for the mental realm and examination and observation externally. I'm curious, because I've heard in many different ways, like the Sanskrit words in their conception, the way that they were crafted, vibrationally connect with what's being said much deeper than we would conceive of, like the actual sound and vibration of the word being said. And I think anybody who reads Sanskrit or sings it, there's like a smoothness to the way the words come together as opposed to super califragilistic.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Super califragilistic, expialidocious.

• 55:00André Duqum?

  You know, or just like any of like our Western words can be quite different. I don't know why that came up.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  I don't know what language that one is. Yeah, I mean, I love languages. I don't speak any other languages fluently, but I'm familiar a lot through song and also just general interest in language with a lot of different ones. And, I mean, Sanskrit is an amazing language. I don't, I never studied it deeply in terms of the grammar and all of that. My husband knows a bit, much more than me. But I know it to be a very sophisticated language and, like you say, very detailed. But I, and you know, maybe it's more the heart, the heart space speaking,

• 55:50Speaker 00

  like you were saying, but I really appreciate just all languages because it's really like, what are you trying to express? All languages are capable, well, actually, that's, you're saying the opposite, right? Like some languages, you might not be able to express what you're getting at because the words are not quite there. So maybe the ideal is what we are in that space of being able to read some things through their original text or, you know, very great, good translations, to be able to access specific concepts. Yeah, I think I just did a full year round.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, some things are not, they're not expressible in English. That's true. Okay, I just turned myself around the other way.

• 56:41André Duqum?

  No, it's.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  I just like English for what it is.

• 56:44André Duqum?

  I love it. I love it too. And it's cool. And I think the more that you go to different cultures and you go to Japan or you learn a little bit of Pali or Sanskrit, you know? And it's helpful to see the ways in which you're limited with the native tongue that you grew up with, right? That's helpful to like actually kind of deconstruct a lot of like the lens we're looking through and like the paradigm that we're operating with because we speak to ourselves in the language we were taught.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 57:14André Duqum?

  And it's also, we think we know reality and we describe a tree or we know the name of a bird and like, that's it.

• 57:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:20André Duqum?

  And in reality, it's like, in some, in some ways, I think in a direct way, language is actually incompatible with describing reality. Like we can point, it can be helpful to point towards.

• 57:33Speaker 00

  There's a limit to language itself.

• 57:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true. I remember my dad telling me an example of the Sanskrit term avatar, which, you know, a lot of people are familiar with now because of movies and different things. But avatar is that which descends or, you know, a person who descends. And it's often, at least, you know, in the texts we grew up with, it was translated as incarnated. But the root of, you know, in carna, like in the flesh, means kind of taking human form, but loses the whole aspect of like, when there's an avatar,

• 58:16Speaker 00

  that means a divine being becomes present and, you know, accessible in the earthly plane. But that gets completely lost in just saying incarnate, you know? And that has a whole other connotation. So, yeah, it's very interesting how words can open up or limit an understanding.

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• 1:00:08André Duqum?

  Yeah. And which is why I think so many people relate and connect to movies, film, music, sound, poetry, art connects to reality in like a more real way.

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22André Duqum?

  Because it's like almost through living through the myth and the metaphor, we're actually closer to the thing.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29André Duqum?

  Because, you know, because it's never the descriptor, right? It's more like the dance and the flow of it.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it has its resonance to like, something can be expressing something literally, but then there's also a resonance to the experience of witnessing or encountering that that is going to be, that is going to evoke something unique also for yourself, for the listener, for the viewer. Yeah.

• 1:00:58André Duqum?

  And there's something, especially in Kirtan and mantra, that dissolves our sense of an individualistic self. What is your experience and what has your experience been through mantra, meditation, music and just mantra as a technology in general? Like what happens to your sense of self as a jnana when you practice?

• 1:01:24Speaker 00

  Some of the times that I think of when you ask that are when I've taken part in Kirtan, either in very intimate settings with a few very close trusted friends, where there's sort of a, there's really a shared desire to go, to go deep into a practice and not just sort of it be like a fun, social thing to do. And then also when I've taken part in Kirtan festivals, where there's many, many, many hours or days of chanting. And I think it's just a very, a very deep experience of bonding.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Here's a, you know, again, the limitations of language. I'm like, bonding, is it bonding? It's a feeling of connectedness, of a depth of love and collective prayer, which feels extremely powerful, actually. You know, it's almost like you feel you get lifted up by and with others and yet you're also offering your voice into that and, and helping others be lifted. Yeah, it's an experience of community and of nourishment.

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  I think a very deep nourishment, which I feel is quite unique. I don't feel that that nourishment for me comes in, you know, it might, I might be nourished in other ways, but they're different than what that is. It's a very unique type of food for the soul.

• 1:03:16André Duqum?

  In some ways, the Vedic, I feel like perspective can be talked about how the one becomes many for the joy of becoming one again. And in those settings where the chanting for hours or days, you know, it's like you, the sense of self is in the way that you're describing, it seems like it kind of dissolves into a greater reality, like the boundaries of myself seem to dissolve into like, oh, it's like a big group that you're with.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45André Duqum?

  Nature as a general, the earth itself, the cosmos, it keeps on going.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna, actually, yeah, because you mentioned about what happens to the Jahnavi. I think it's like both and. I, you experience, I experience connectedness, you know, you experience connectedness with everyone, being a part of, of, you know, everything, but also retaining individuality and accessing, I think, a depth of an understanding of self that's maybe not there when we are in that sort of usual day to day, you know, self-centered kind of existence where it's just like, oh, what am I doing with my life?

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  And like, what about this today? And that whole, you know, the, the constant kind of narration that's with us through, through the day. There's like a free, freeing from, from that. It's almost like the mind becomes pacified and calm and the regular thoughts that can just be constantly pulling in one direction or another are replaced or sort of soothed and smoothed by a spiritual sound vibration that is, that is like a balm. Yeah, that's the experience in limited words that I can express.

• 1:05:19André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's the gift and the curse of being on a podcast. It's like, you're always talking around the things.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:26André Duqum?

  But, no, that was well said. I, I agree, it feels like a balm, totally. You know, there's something inherently soothing. I mean, let alone just to, just to get beyond our own drama.

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:40André Duqum?

  You know, just like set it down for a bit, even if you pick it right back up after.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and probably when you pick it back up, it's, you're gonna feel different about it. It's not that it is a magic wand to solve all your problems, but you will feel, you'll feel different, you'll feel, experience a difference. I've been a part of Kirtan in a variety of different settings, you know, I think with the sort of, I don't know when to use the word commercialization, but I can't think of another word right now, but wellness practices, spiritual practices, there, there is especially in the US, but around the world, there's a sort of an industry of these things being encountered in spaces where you've like bought a ticket or you've gone to a festival or,

• 1:06:28André Duqum?

  You have pants and smoothies.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've gone on a retreat and I'm not discounting those things because those are all doorways to make connection. But sometimes what you might not experience in those spaces is those sort of everyday communal experiences of some of these practices. So, you know, Kirtan when someone has died and Kirtan at the funeral and, you know, Kirtan at someone's birthday or just ways that we find shelter in that, in times of the highs and the lows. And I, I've experienced how the addition of, of that music and song and prayer, it,

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  you know, it elevates the highs higher and kind of brings depth. And in those low or, you know, moments that are very difficult to process emotionally, grief, these things, it, it's, it's, it feels like being held. I'm doing this, trying to express through gesture what I can't express through words. Yeah, one of the most amazing Kirtans of my life was at the, at the funeral of someone who was an incredibly loved member of, of the community I'm, I grew up in.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  And he, he knew so many people in the community because his, his service at the temple was to greet people as they were coming in on Sundays. So he would stand at the door for hours and just greet everyone that was walking in. So he, he had a relationship with so many people. And there was like a thousand people coming in, in and streaming out at his funeral. And we did this Kirtan for three and a half hours, the same melody, the same mantra, just repeating back and forth. And it was like a otherworldly experience. And I was thinking, you know, we were, we were crying, but we were also increasingly

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  feeling very joyful and, yeah, it's difficult to articulate, but I remember thinking, if someone walked in the door right now and saw like, this is a funeral, and if they'd never encountered this way of what a funeral could look and feel like, they might find it quite striking, it might, I don't know what they would think, but, but it was beautiful to me, that was just incredibly beautiful.

• 1:09:00Speaker 04

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• 1:09:45Speaker 04

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• 1:10:01Speaker 05

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• 1:10:32André Duqum?

  It's really fascinating to see the different ways in which various religions and the cultures relate to death, celebration of life, marriage, all sorts of social contracts. And on the journey of pursuing your true self, like your essential self, inevitably there's going to be many deaths and rebirths of who you thought you were. And I'm curious in those moments, whenever you like look back and see the, the couple that stand out the most, have there been moments where you've like really lost faith in, in God and self, like a disillusionment of identity, especially growing up around this your whole life?

• 1:11:16André Duqum?

  Sometimes I, I would assume it's like a lot of what you've always known and where the questioning of that comes into play. So, yeah, what comes up there?

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I remember when I was young, people used to say to me, you know, because my dad was sort of like, he was, he was often a designated spokesperson for the tradition. Like if there was a BBC radio thing and/or representatives of different faiths, he would often be the one to go along. And there was a few times also that we got featured as a family on a, on a documentary, stuff like that. And so that I remember being asked as a teenager, so have you ever questioned this? And have you ever, did you ever just want to run away? Or you didn't want to believe in it anymore? And I'd be like, no, not really. And I, even at the time, I was thinking like, is there something wrong with me?

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  Like, should I, should I have? And I think what happened for me is just that some of those ways of questioning, it didn't come in that traditional kind of rebellion moment, but came later on. The more that my world expanded outside of that community and, and those people that I had, yeah, grown up around. So I think, yes, one of the most, one of the most significant deaths, I think, I have experienced, and this is something I haven't really articulated so much publicly, but

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  I think when you grow up with a, with a tradition, and especially if you grow up as part of a, an institution, a spiritual or religious institution, there's, there's gonna have to be some kind of reckoning with the, the human and the messy and even the things that go wrong, the bad things that people do that you don't want to look at. And when faith is intertwined with the, you know, the world or the institution that has kind of given you those spiritual practices and that way of life, it can create so much dissonance internally to try to reconcile that.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  And I'm sure many, many people resonate with that journey because it's not as simple as sort of just, you know, a lot of people may just sort of cut and drop whatever they grew up with, like, okay, I don't want to be Catholic anymore, I don't identify with that. Or I've heard, I've spoken to so many people, even, even for myself, for a short time, I was like, well, this is very jarring, you know, and what can I, what am I salvaging from this? And, yeah, there's, there's these moments where, you know, it's almost, almost like the ground shake, ground shakes beneath your feet. And I think the sort of rebirth is in really that.

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  Cycle of again choosing to identify with, to deepen our connection with specific practices, specific beliefs, but really coming from a place of like, I am choosing this on my own terms, not because of this, not because of that, not because that person thinks that this is what I should do, but because something is very alive for me here. And this is where there's love. There's love here. But yeah, that can be very difficult and painful and not unfolding according to a convenient timeline, I would say.

• 1:15:10André Duqum?

  Was it difficult and painful for you?

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it was. Also because through my music and through, through my music and through, I guess, you know, I never really kind of had a calculated intention to become like publicly known for representing a tradition. I guess you could say, well, what do you think would happen if you keep doing something? It's not that you're going to be famous, but people will start to say like, you represent this and this is something that you do. And I think that's a difficult thing when you kind of have a public face of representing something that you then privately are also still reconciling

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  or finding, you know, a place of authenticity with. Yeah, it was difficult and painful at certain moments. But I also think it's a part of the journey of faith and being human and discovering our unique path. And that helps me frame it positively. Yeah.

• 1:16:28André Duqum?

  I think anybody wants to authentically choose, choose what they're doing. In a way like marriage, no one wants to be married to someone that feels obligated to be with them for the rest of their life. You know, you want it to be a conscious choice in a moment to moment, yes. Even though there's going to be challenges that come up.

• 1:16:48Speaker 00

  And you have to keep choosing that person. It's a common saying, but it's really true because you're actually changing and evolving.

• 1:16:55André Duqum?

  Yeah, and I think it's unrealistic that our faith, our practices, our religion will just be a constant through line or yes, and there won't be, you know, rocky terrain that we'll have to cross. But what's comforting is that if there is a natural return to that, that means there is something sincere and true. It wasn't just inculcated from the family or religion you grew up in. But it's like, oh, this is actually a true choice. And sometimes I feel like with conversations I've had internally, it takes the courage to actually be okay with throwing it away or like saying no to it to then make that choice first. But it's like, one without the other. You can't really like fully choose something if you don't look at it for what it is.

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you don't step back or allow there to be, I mean, sometimes you don't really have a choice. That earthquake kind of feeling will come because of, you know, personal doubts, because of external circumstances, however that happens. But sort of letting that be what it is. And I think one of the things that's really helped me through those times, especially even actually, you know, being married to my husband, who's a chaplain. So he's in his work giving spiritual care to people who come to talk to him about life.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  And they may not have a specific religious denomination that they identify with, but they're just talking about life and spiritual kind of questions, I guess, as we're doing here. And I think it really makes a difference, you know, whether you have a friend or, you know, a spouse or a parent or a mentor, who you can really be candid about the doubts and the struggles that you're having. Because I think when you have come from a very specific community of faith, it's not always easy to have those conversations. It can feel very, it can feel taboo. It can feel like there's judgment around expressing something or asking certain questions.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  But we need to, we need to. And the more people that have openness around that, the more it's acceptable to just, yeah, be honest.

• 1:19:16André Duqum?

  Yeah, we all have our own echo chambers. You know, where sometimes we just need to step out from and talk to people to look at something from a different lens and then find that authentic choice. You mentioned, I'm sure, as you've been writing albums and making music and practicing and playing at festivals and shows, of course, to become more well-known. You're putting yourself out there. That can be a quite vulnerable thing. And I've heard you speak a little bit to this dynamic of pratishta, where to be aware of, where something in its innocent form is a genuine love or something,

• 1:19:58André Duqum?

  it becomes, from the outside in, there's more of an appearance that it creates. And that can, that awareness of adoration externally can drive someone to perform and take them away from the original love that draw them to that thing in the first place. And I'm curious how you navigate that, really just like being known for whatever you do. As anyone who's good at their craft tend to, you know, will.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, actually, my husband and I were on a, you know, five, five and a half hour drive down here yesterday. And we were speaking just exactly about this because I was saying that no matter how much you are aware of this concept and trying to stay tuned in to, you know, humility or just sort of being accepting of whatever comes in life, the ego is, I mean, we all have ego and it's healthy as well to have some ego. It's, you know, it was often translated in the texts that I grew up in or by Bhakti Vedanta Swami. My parents grew as the false ego

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  that we have to be careful with. It's really where the ego gets carried away. It's like deeply, strongly identifying, you know, that I need to be, this is me. And sort of that can't be shaken or, you know, diminished. Otherwise, that really affects my sense of self. But I was saying to him like, it's just natural that unless you're a perfected spiritual being, you're always going to have this ego, the false ego, a hankar intertwined, you know, with whatever you're doing. You know, you may be having, yeah, I mean, many examples are coming to mind of seeing that arise in other people,

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  but I should really speak about myself. But yeah, you can be shocked sometimes to see, you know, certain thoughts coming to your mind or even things wanting to come out of the mouth. Where you're like, wait a minute, that's not why you do this. Or that's not, is that really who you think you are? Or, you know, it's about like who I am, what I deserve, you know, how the world should respond to me. I think the tonic is really, you know, like I mentioned, staying connected to prayer. And these prayers and songs of great saints,

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  they really inspire me because I think they are, you know, whether they are perfected beings or whether they were very advanced, I think they were much, much more, you know, astronomically more advanced than myself. And so being in that frequency of their understanding, their grounding in who I am and why I do what I do, it really helps. Because I think it's, we're living in a world where it's almost contradicting, opposing energies. Like we're encouraged to like, you've got to, you know, you've got to embody a certain confidence and brand yourself and push yourself out there.

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

  And it can feel contradictory sometimes to spiritual values.

• 1:23:24André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think it's tricky for anyone, but particularly tricky when your work is in many ways connected to maintaining humility and reverence for the divine. And when there's more opportunities for you to identify as, you know, there's nothing more beautiful than the sage that emanates wisdom and the sage that is aware that it is, can feel pompous, you know? And so it's like, there's always the shadow that comes with the light in anything that we do in life.

• 1:23:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00André Duqum?

  You know, you were nominated for a Grammy recently.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, I was at the Grammys and that was a really, that was a perfect, you know, living moment to be feeling out the space of what this is. Like, the whole premise of what these sort of ceremonies and the idea of awards are, it does contradict what the values of devotional music are. Because why do you need to be awarded something? Or who's better than, someone better than another? And even just being in that environment, it's very much like when you have a music industry or any industry, everyone's trying to push their way to the top.

• 1:24:48Speaker 00

  So everyone kind of has to at least have, you know, whether they're overtly putting it out there or it's more subtle, they're selling their themselves and what they can do. And, you know, that's completely justified because that's, you know, it's a, it's a world of work and business and it's art too, but it's everything intertwined. So coming into that space as someone who has had these values about what is spiritual music and where does it belong, kind of instilled at a very young age? And then trying to understand, yeah, does this fit together? Or should I be here?

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Or who am I in this space? I don't think the answers are always easy or neat or satisfying. And I think I've learned that sometimes just being willing to stand in that place of tension is part of what is just, that's the service or that's the offering, is sort of to be willing to try something and also to try to, at the same time, be discerning of oneself and to be receiving feedback from close people that, you know, hey, is this like, am I on the right track? Or am I losing my way here?

• 1:26:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:17Speaker 00

  The integrity.

• 1:26:17Speaker 04

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• 1:27:01Speaker 04

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• 1:27:17Speaker 05

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• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  Tea, yeah.

• 1:27:49André Duqum?

  That's so essential. I think we all need those reflections because it's so easy to, we're susceptible to levels of self-deception unbeknownst to us. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with recognizing or celebrating someone's creations.

• 1:28:07Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:28:08André Duqum?

  But in the midst where that's all happening, it can create this desire and competitive force almost within us and change our motive in some ways. It's like, oh, this is what I think I should want now.

• 1:28:20Speaker 00

  Or if I win, I have value or a certain value. And then if I don't win, I don't have a certain value or, yeah.

• 1:28:28André Duqum?

  And this can be obviously taken to any field, any work, any industry, even podcasting. You know, it's like you see somebody becoming successful in a certain way. They do a show and it's like, oh, maybe I should reflect that more.

• 1:28:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40André Duqum?

  And the strategy and tactics can create benefit. Oftentimes, people can become so successful driven from this fear of inadequacy or whatever, right?

• 1:28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51André Duqum?

  And I think it just comes back again down to like, what is it that I actually want? Right? Or do I see value and worth coming from? Is it internally generated? Is it inherent to my being? Or is it garnered from the outside?

• 1:29:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04André Duqum?

  And I think these are inquiries we all are inevitably gonna dance with. But it sounds like you have, through the reflections in your life and inquiry internally, like I have just examined, what is it that I truly want to give? You know? And is that okay if it's received by a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, whoever, whatever that ends up being?

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:32André Duqum?

  And, yeah, I'll shut up because I keep talking here. But I think it's just like, it's fascinating. We can often see the metrics of the performance of something, always directly correlating to how successful that thing is in impact.

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48André Duqum?

  And that's not always true, right? Like.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  I think it's a hundred percent not. Yeah. It's just one aspect of what could be defined as impact.

• 1:29:58André Duqum?

  Yeah, I've always seen, and also usually like, the most popular things are reflective of where the collective consciousness is at most. Right? So pop music is popular music. It's why, it's reflective, I think, of where most people are drawn to. And that's cool, but also like you, not to throw shade on all of society, maybe a little bit. But.

• 1:30:23Speaker 00

  You can do it, it's your podcast.

• 1:30:25André Duqum?

  Dude, I'm free speech here.

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27André Duqum?

  Throw a shock up.

• 1:30:30André Duqum?

  But you see, I mean, the mass consciousness is not in a great place, health-wise, mentally, like.

• 1:30:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37André Duqum?

  So I don't think that should be our directing force.

• 1:30:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. And why is it, why is pop music the most popular? Like arguably, it's kind of being fed to people. It's not only that it's just like, oh, that's where everyone gravitates. We're being given that by a music industry which invests a huge amount of money and marketing and visuals, you know, to give us that attractive, appealing, easy to consume thing. And not to denigrate or say that there's not amazing artistry there, but it's, I think, there's people behind that who are pushing that mechanism to give us more.

• 1:31:18André Duqum?

  Yeah, I've been in conversation with some friends who are very commercially successful in the industry like I know you have, where that is a real balance. And when you have millions of people expecting a certain thing for you, reacting to things you've previously done in a certain way and want more of that.

• 1:31:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37André Duqum?

  You have to be so connected to yourself to not be drawn into that.

• 1:31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

• 1:31:46André Duqum?

  And, I mean, your most recent work and a lot of your work really blends some, like, Western elements with your Eastern origins and.

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. At least the recent, especially the more recent.

• 1:31:57André Duqum?

  The more recent one.

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, offerings.

• 1:31:59André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:59Speaker 00

  And that's also an expression of my exploration of faith and culture. Because I grew up in a real bubble, you know? I was very, I mean, a real bubble. I was exposed to a lot of different influences, but it was very traditional. And I think, I know that there's a lot of people who would probably be happy if I just recorded and presented traditional kirtan and that was it, you know? And I don't think there'd be anything wrong with that. But I have found that it's personal and I guess needed, is it needed?

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  For me, it has felt so, at least to explore, yeah, other offerings. But yeah, there's always that voice of like, is this what people want? Will they like it? Will people, will I be rejected? Those people probably won't like it, but these people will. And which one am I trying to please? You know? Yeah, you have to try to tune that out. It's not easy.

• 1:33:07André Duqum?

  I do think it's a, it's a natural dance, right? Any artist wants their work to be received positively.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15André Duqum?

  But I'm curious, how have you navigated that discernment between the internal versus external kind of motivating factors? And the exploration into some of the more Western compositions, you know, has that felt entirely, I'm sure nothing's entirely, but largely impacted by your own innate curiosities, wanting to reach more people? I'm just curious how you don't let your origins confine you into a certain way of expressing, but like, having the courage to experiment with different formats and stuff.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. I love that question.

• 1:33:56Speaker 00

  I think that for many years, I would have felt that it would be inauthentic for me to do anything but just sort of share traditional kirtan. And my exploration outside of that, I think it's not an irrelevant fact that it also happened more so like the work with Willow during COVID time. So the noise of like the world and opinions and all, it was actually quieted down quite a lot. And I think, you know, I've had a background with writing,

• 1:34:40Speaker 00

  not necessarily songwriting, but using the English language

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  and to express and being a lover of poetry and songs. And there are so many incredible songwriters in English, and of course, in all different languages, who express deeper ideas and concepts and, you know, orientation of prayer through original songwriting. So that was something that started coming up very spontaneously. And it's, and it was interesting how, I mean, in coming together with Willow, it just happened to be a moment where she was having an interest in mantra. And me being, you know, not disinterested in that, but also wanting to explore how to, I think,

• 1:35:33Speaker 00

  both express something, like I said, in English, but also open a door of accessibility to the tradition of mantra meditation, of kirtan, because I'm just aware that for a lot of people, it's something very, very foreign. And I think through, through, you know, the medium of song, there's so much that we can kind of connect with in a, you know, in a small seed form that can open up into, you know, bigger space. But, but yeah, undoubtedly, I thought like, oh, I don't know if people are gonna accept or reject this chapter of me

• 1:36:17Speaker 00

  or just want me to like, get back in the, get back in the box, just do kirtan. And, and it's, I've never felt like a sense of rejecting that. It's, it's more just being a personal exploration of ways of expression.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  So, yeah.

• 1:36:37André Duqum?

  It feels like, there is a saying, the creative adult is the child who survived, you know? You spoke about earlier how self-expressed children are.

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49André Duqum?

  And some of the musicians and artists we respect and adore most were individuals who are like unshakingly following what their own taste was.

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:00André Duqum?

  And it's, it seems counterintuitive for any artists or creatives who are listening right now. It's like almost a logical thing is like, what do most people want? I'll do that. But it, it feels like when you follow that path, not only is it often unfulfilling, it doesn't carry the resonance of your truth, which is actually what impacts people, I think, the most.

• 1:37:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's a balancing act, actually. I think about this a lot. And again, we were having this discussion in the car. It kind of all blended together. I heard Harrison Ford on a podcast recently, or it was like an interview. And he was speaking about acting and he said it's a, it's a service profession or a service industry, something like that. I'd never heard it expressed like that. And he was, he was talking about why he's always tries to be welcoming if people come up to him and want to express how much they loved a film or something. Cause he was saying, we're there to give audiences a chance to connect with storytelling and to escape their, you know, their day to day and really become absorbed.

• 1:38:06Speaker 00

  And I thought that was so beautiful. And I was thinking about how that relates to what I do. Because I do think that to be a facilitator of devotional, you know, of sangha, of a kirtan gathering, that is a service role. It's not necessarily about expressing your individual. There's individuality in it because you choose how to facilitate. But ultimately, you actually are trying to tune into, is this helping or, you know, is the melody I have chosen, the pace, the sort of dynamics of where we're at? Is this, is this bringing people more into connection? Or am I losing people?

• 1:38:50Speaker 00

  And you can't be overly mental about that also. But you have to try to be of service in that way. Whereas I think maybe, you know, an artist who is writing songs or expressing something from a very personal place, like you said, there's more, it's more important for them to kind of stay connected to that truth that they want to share. So I feel like it's interesting how these two, it's not that they're mutually exclusive, but they kind of lean towards slightly different emphases.

• 1:39:24André Duqum?

  Yeah, the, yeah.

• 1:39:27André Duqum?

  It's also interesting when your life's work becomes, like when your passion turns into profit and it becomes a business.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:36André Duqum?

  You know? I love music. I played music a lot of my life. I'm so happy that it's something right now that is just like my own personal thing. That I'm like, not really sharing. I might more, I'm sure, at some point in life.

• 1:39:50André Duqum?

  Because in some ways, it can, if you let it distort your love for the thing, when it becomes your source of income and living as well.

• 1:39:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:40:00André Duqum?

  So many little things to navigate, you know, but.

• 1:40:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. I think, again, you know, when you talk about, you know, we use the analogy of marriage and continuing to choose. And similarly, in a, you know, faith or spiritual path of relationship with, with the divine, with God, continuing to choose. And I think in relationship with a particular, yeah, dharma or sharing an art, an offering, you have to keep choosing to, for the relationship to be expressed or be, to be enacted in a particular way. Cause sometimes you need to be, again, discernment.

• 1:40:46Speaker 00

  It's so important to notice when it's becoming something maybe unhealthy or it's having an effect on our kind of internal well-being. And maybe for people in a realm of kind of spiritual art or expression, that's arguably even more important because there's, it's even more important, I think, to have, to keep a certain integrity. But sometimes you don't get to, it's not that easy to make those choices. And you can't immediately make changes as well.

• 1:41:21André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:22Speaker 00

  For whatever practical logistical reasons.

• 1:41:26André Duqum?

  Yeah, and the starving artist is a very real archetype for people that are exploring their passion and their creation.

• 1:41:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:33André Duqum?

  Want to do it full time too. It's, and I know so many musicians and artists all across the board can struggle with that.

• 1:41:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42André Duqum?

  There's something

• 1:41:45André Duqum?

  really amazing about how, when you reflect on the current state of the planet and like all of the horrible things that are happening in any given moment. And we feel almost helpless at times to like, what can we do? I love the Tony K. Bambaara quote, which says the, it's the artist's responsibility to make the revolution irresistible. And he's such a gift that the creatives and the storytellers and the poets and the musicians have to really shape culture. And they do.

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16André Duqum?

  And you do, obviously, with your music and your art.

• 1:42:19Speaker 00

  Thank you. I feel, I feel, I feel a bit activated after hearing that quote. I'm like, yes, yes, I have to remember that. Yeah.

• 1:42:27André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 00

  I agree with you. I mean, I'm in awe of so many, so many artists and poets and speakers. And many of them even, you know, my peers or people that I, I'm privileged to know personally. I, I'm kind of, yeah, in awe and wonder really at how they're able to share with so much substance and with so much love and inspire action in so many people. I like to do that myself too, but yeah. Sometimes you can't see it in yourself as easily as you can recognize and appreciate that in others.

• 1:43:08André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:08Speaker 00

  It is, it is amazing though. I think we're, we as human beings are, we're moved by, by beauty and, beauty and depth and truth. And the medium of, of art and music, I think it's a, it's a very quick connection, quick. And so it's like, I've often heard this phrase that it's bypassing the intellect. And it's really, it's just, it's like an immediate connection. Yeah, just hearing the opening bars of a song that brings that kind of response within the heart. We all know, have that kind of feeling, experience that.

• 1:43:52André Duqum?

  It's really amazing how the arts in general help us connect with what we have more in common and what's more similar as opposed to our differences, which is constantly blasted out through the news.

• 1:44:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03André Duqum?

  And I think anyone who goes to a music show or a concert, suddenly, you know, everyone's differences seem to dissolve into this and everyone becomes one big thing.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:14André Duqum?

  I think we saw that definitely a bit with like the World Cup recently and it's a, it evokes a sense of hopefulness and possibility, I think.

• 1:44:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:23André Duqum?

  When you, when you're in that feeling state as opposed to what needs to be, like all the solutions which we need, you know, on the planet. But that to me just evokes so much possibility.

• 1:44:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I, I had never been to a stadium concert before and last year Coldplay came to Stanford where my husband works. So we live like a walking distance from the stadium and we.

• 1:44:46André Duqum?

  Was that when the big controversy happened with the wife?

• 1:44:50Speaker 00

  That wasn't at that one. That was at a different concert, but that was that tour. Yeah, that was that tour.

• 1:44:57Speaker 00

  Or was it? No, I don't think it was at that one. Oh, my God.

• 1:45:01André Duqum?

  I thought it was there.

• 1:45:03Speaker 00

  Maybe it was.

• 1:45:06André Duqum?

  That's wild.

• 1:45:06Speaker 00

  Maybe it was. Probably. No, actually, yeah, if it was, it must have been on one of the nights we were there. I don't know.

• 1:45:13André Duqum?

  Nonetheless.

• 1:45:14Speaker 00

  Nonetheless.

• 1:45:15André Duqum?

  Coldplay.

• 1:45:15Speaker 00

  Coldplay. Yeah, like I, I wouldn't have described myself as like a hardcore Coldplay fan. But their music has been, you know, for anyone that's kind of roughly around, I would guess we're roughly around a certain age. That music has sort of been in pop culture, you know, for much of our kind of teens or adult life. And I, I just like being there, I understood like, wow, this is why people love to go to these kind of, yeah, whether, I mean, of course there's sports games in that same kind of stadium. But even just coming in before the music had started, just looking around and seeing 50,000 people and feeling like, wow, we're all here to feel connected to the same thing.

• 1:46:00Speaker 00

  It really moved me to tears. I found myself kind of crying a lot and I was like, maybe this is gonna seem cheesy, you know, but, but it's, it's magical. Like, I mean, looking around, I saw people from such different backgrounds and I was thinking, we, we inherently, we have that hope and that desire to, to really, to be vessels of love and truth and empathy and, you know, support for each other. And I think also, you know, to, to, to also give credit to, to Coldplay, they, they really, I, I think they really emphasize creating that environment in their concert as well to, to, to really,

• 1:46:44Speaker 00

  I guess, you know, in a subtle or not so subtle at times way to, to, to give, to impress those values or to really bring that out in people, which is a beautiful thing and a beautiful example of using music in that way.

• 1:46:58André Duqum?

  Yeah, and like many artists, I think Chris Martin being an amazing example of that too. When you, when you want to be a proponent for like bringing more unity on the planet.

• 1:47:08Speaker 00

  Goodness and love.

• 1:47:10André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:11André Duqum?

  And you do that. What becomes possible at that level and it's so tough to quantify, I would assume. You know, the impact of like when everyone goes after one of those concerts back into their life.

• 1:47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:22André Duqum?

  A, a sense of a feeling of more connectedness, art in that, in that perspective doesn't just become like a, like a nice thing. It's actual sustenance for us.

• 1:47:32Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. I would say it was deeply moving for me and I did not expect that. Because maybe I just had an opinion about like a big concert and people screaming or, or whatever that might be. And I felt like what was being expressed, the thoughtfulness of, of the curation of the concert experience, you know, even just them highlighting the sort of ways that they were mitigating the impact on the environment of, of, of that, you know, concert offering.

• 1:48:05Speaker 00

  And multiple other ways that they curated this, this experience. I'd say it resonated with me for days, weeks, months. And that was surprising, given that I said I wasn't like, I wasn't like, oh, my God, like it's my life dream to see, to see Coldplay. I came away feeling like, wow, this is the impact of gathering with other human beings, singing together around and, and expressing love and unity and acceptance and, you know, in a, in a, in these mass gatherings. And it's inspiring because, yeah, having grown up with, you know, specific musical tradition,

• 1:48:46Speaker 00

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• 1:50:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, does that exist? I would, I, I hope.

• 1:50:48André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:49Speaker 00

  I hope it can be or I hope to see, you know, more and more ways of expressing that.

• 1:50:53André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think you're a great proponent of that and is there, when you kind of think and feel into the next, you know, decade of your life and what you want to create and what you want to explore.

• 1:51:07André Duqum?

  What does that, what does that look like? Do you have any projects you're working on now? Like what are you, what are you feeling into?

• 1:51:13Speaker 00

  Well, right now I'm starting work on a, on a writing project actually, which is something I haven't, I've been pretty much engaged with music for, you know, the last decade or more. And I had been, I had identified as a writer much more in the past. So I'm working on a project which is gonna be music and audio and writing,

• 1:51:41Speaker 00

  drawing from the Bhagavad Gita, which is a text I kind of learned as a child. But trying to present it in a way to, to, you know, again, thinking about accessibility and how can someone connect with this ancient wisdom in a way that feels like it's relevant to their life, it's digestible. It's not intimidating because these great texts, I mean, you know, some like yourself who are hungry for, for knowledge and diving deep into different traditions may just devour, you know, all these beautiful wisdom texts. But I think for a lot of people, even just opening a book can feel like, ah, it's, it's daunting. Or it's, I don't know how to, I don't know how to find a relationship to this or how it relates to me.

• 1:52:27Speaker 00

  So that's something I'm working on and then some new music. But, but this conversation is like opening my mind to some of those things that have really inspired me and I, I think I often struggle to, to envision big things, dream big. I tend to like, again, thinking about the spiritual values of humility and sort of accepting what comes. I think the slightly shadow side of that, or, or rather the side you've got to be careful of is to not be too.

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  Close to the possibilities of what could happen, you know, not be too kind of limiting of thinking, oh, well, I'll just do my little thing. And if, if something happens, I'll, I'll go along with the flow. Cause as I think you're showing with, you know, with creating this podcast with so many people's offerings, they require planning and a vision and an immense amount of work. It doesn't just happen by divine will. It just clumps down on your head, you know? So, um, yeah, getting some ideas even in this conversation.

• 1:53:35André Duqum?

  So happy. That's amazing.

• 1:53:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:37André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's been so fruitful for me as well. And, um, I relate to what you shared as well. Like sometimes I've thought humility can almost feel like, oh, I'll just play, almost not like play small, but like the, the root of like humus, humility is like earth, right? Soil and it's like taking your God given place on the planet as well. And so I also, I think I've grown to see ego is not just in not wanting, not wanting to be the grandiose narcissism that we're familiar with egotism, but also denying the capacity for light we have to shine.

• 1:54:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:13André Duqum?

  And.

• 1:54:14Speaker 00

  It's so hard to reconcile that sometimes.

• 1:54:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:18Speaker 00

  It's really difficult. Yeah. To discern, to discern what is right. But as like you say, sometimes you, you think like, oh no, I'm, I'm, I'm being as I should be. I'm, I'm sort of small and humble and simple. I'm putting in quotations because it's like we, we can fool ourselves that that's the case. But we're actually, there's much, much more that we could be doing. And it's more out of fear or an assumption that there will be something negative as a result. Like I'll, I'll probably change or I'll be too proud or egotistical or self-centered if I, if I do this.

• 1:55:00Speaker 00

  And I think I've seen some friends.

• 1:55:06Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, I think Jay, Jay Shetty, who's a friend of mine, is a great example of someone who has big dreams and incredible amount of hard work. And yet in the core of it is a desire to serve. And you're sort of willing to go on that path and have to moment to moment respond to those, you know, challenges that may come with doing something bigger than maybe people around you would have ever dreamed that you would. And that's not to say that that's what it means to be successful for, for everyone.

• 1:55:48Speaker 00

  But I know it takes a lot of courage to, uh, to step forward and to be seen. And, and yeah.

• 1:55:58André Duqum?

  It, uh, it reminds me of this quote from Marianne Williamson around how our, our deepest fear isn't perhaps that we're inadequate, but we're more powerful beyond measure.

• 1:56:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07André Duqum?

  And I don't think anybody who's really reconciled with that and is navigating that.

• 1:56:14André Duqum?

  It can be easier to kind of live a more simple or small life in the way that we define it. It can be quite terrifying to own up to the power that we have.

• 1:56:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. A friend of mine, a mentor, shared that quote with me, maybe like 17, 18 years ago. And, um, I think I really needed to hear it at that time, but I think I need to hear it repeatedly. Cause yes, I think it is quite scary. The possibilities of what could happen when we push past that comfort zone and limited expectation of, of who I am and what my life should be. Yeah.

• 1:57:01André Duqum?

  Yeah. It's, it's also easy that process, I feel like for me internally to forget to reflect and appreciate the impact that we've already had. You know, cause we're like thinking of, I can definitely be oriented towards like, what's next? What are we building? How are we expanding?

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:16André Duqum?

  Failing to sometimes acknowledge the real impact. Like it's can be tough to admit to ourselves. Like maybe you struggle with like how impactful your music has been and how much it's really supported people.

• 1:57:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:28André Duqum?

  And that is enough. And yet life keeps expanding.

• 1:57:31Speaker 00

  It does. Yeah. I mean, I love, I love to hear it and people, people often say things like, oh, I'm sure you hear this all the time. And I'm like, no, I, I really need to hear it because I forget. I, I lose sight because I'm, I'm self-centered. I'm just in my own bubble of, you know, thoughts and confusions. And, um, but when people share their stories of how the music has been a companion with them through, you know, through, through all kinds of life experiences. Um, it's incredibly moving for me, sometimes very shocking almost. Because I'm like, wow, that's just, that's all happening without. My involvement was just making the thing and putting it out into, to the world.

• 1:58:14Speaker 00

  And, and then it's, it's, it is beyond us, you know? Like it's, it's like, again, coming back to that Bhagavad Gita concept that, you know, you, you, you do your Dharma and you're entitled to, to do that as well as you can, but not, not the fruits, not the fruit of the, the result. That's not yours to claim, but you can wonder at it and think, wow, that's incredible. And, and just keep, um, trying to do it with more love, more sincerity.

• 1:58:48André Duqum?

  It's, it, it feels so resonant too in the Gita, how they elaborate on top of that of how your Dharma protects you in return as you protect it.

• 1:58:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58André Duqum?

  And how there is this like, these invisible walls of support and guidance as you, as you follow your heart's calling in a way that life provides you with what you need. And I know I found that supportive and true.

• 1:59:14André Duqum?

  Whether it's from the Gita or your life in general, if there's like, if you had like 60 seconds and you wanted to share like one message around how to live a life of devotion, anything that comes to mind, the floor is yours. No pressure.

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  I think finding a space, a ritual or a moment for prayer in your day to day life, in whatever way that feels alive or accessible for you. For me, that, that is a, a space of transformation and nourishment. An example could be on your commute or your drive. It's what you listen to. It could be something that, um, brings about that space in the heart. It could be just speaking it, speaking aloud, you know, in this, this quiet moment, just before you rest or when you wake up.

• 2:00:13Speaker 00

  But I think whether you have a relationship with that practice or not, being open-hearted to experiment with it and find something that feels personal and relatable. And if you find that you don't have words to pray, I think prayer can come in non-verbal ways. You can pray with your body. You can pray through sound and music. You can pray just being present in nature.

• 2:00:40Speaker 00

  But yeah, making space for that. We, I think we would all be more nourished and happy beings when we have space for that in our life.

• 2:00:50André Duqum?

  Beautifully said.

• 2:00:53André Duqum?

  I love this conversation. It's so fun to never know where things are going to go and what we're going to talk about to a degree. And, um, yeah, it's been amazing. And, uh, we'll, we'll leave links in the description for anyone who's listening that wants to stay connected to your work, your art. And that's it.

• 2:01:08Speaker 00

  Thank you so much, Andre. I really appreciated it.

• 2:01:10André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:12André Duqum?

  Looking forward to connecting more offline and yeah, making a new friend.

• 2:01:15Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm really honored to, to be in this space. And it just reminds me also how, um, how good conversation can take us to kind of a deeper place internally and also inspire more action. Dharma in action in our life. Yeah. Thank you so much.

• 2:01:36André Duqum?

  Amazing. Everyone, thank you for tuning into this episode of the Know They Self Podcast. Until next time, be well.