1391: Punish or Praise the Budding Hacker You Raised? | Feedback Friday

You nurtured your daughter's hacker mindset, and she turned it on you. Is her superpower a threat to contain, or a gift to guide? It's Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1391 https://jordanharbinger.com/1391 On This Week's Feedback Friday: You're an analytics engineer who's raised your 12-year-old daughter on Darknet Diaries and security books — and she just used a broken keyboard, your SIM card, and a shoulder-surfed PIN to seize your Google accounts, then confessed. How do you nurture her gift while teaching her where the line is? You married a calm, quirky woman you adored, but since the engagement she's traded cycling for lying in bed, gaining weight, and waving off your concerns with talk of DNA. Now your attraction is fading and her immigration paperwork is pending. Is this really about weight, or something much deeper? You grew up in a tight-knit family, but as your Boomer parents have grown more devout and politically entrenched in retirement, you've drifted toward ambivalence and a quiet nihilism. With the big topics off-limits, how do you keep your bond from shrinking into phone calls about the weather? Recommendation of the Week: Darn Tough Tactical Boot Full Cushion Socks — Jordan discovered these merino-nylon wonders at Burning Man, where they kept his feet dry through scorching days and warm through freezing nights. Knit in Vermont and guaranteed for life, could these be the last socks you ever buy? You took a three-week solo trip through Portugal, Spain, and Greece — seaside swims, stupidly good food, new friends, and a fling with an Estonian guy — yet long stretches of unfamiliar loneliness left you shaken. Was the whole thing a false paradise, or was that loneliness trying to tell you something? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: The Cybersecurity Tapes: Listen here: thecybersecuritytapes.com https://thecybersecuritytapes.com/ZipRecruiter: Learn more at ziprecruiter.com/jordan https://www.ziprecruiter.com/jordanAT&T: Get an iPhone 17 Pro for $0: att.com/iphone or visit an AT&T store for details https://att.com/iphoneConciergeMD: 20% off all services/memberships: conciergemdla.com/jordan, code JORDAN https://conciergemdla.com/?utm_source=Podcast&utm_medium=Jordan&utm_campaign=JordanHarbinger+See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:01Speaker 01

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• 1:34Speaker 02

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the chocolate flakes on this foamy cortado of life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi. Do they actually, do they put chocolate flakes on a cortado? I'm not even sure I know what a cortado is.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Me either. They do at Starbucks if you pay them enough, I'm sure.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Ah, Starbucks, the true Italian experience.

• 1:53Speaker 03

  That's right. Also, I don't think cortados are foamy. I think that, I think you're thinking of a cappuccino.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I wanted to say something more Italian sounding than cappuccino, since we've written that here.

• 2:02Speaker 03

  Tato, chino.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Tato, chino. We have fancy coffee here on the show and you didn't flakes, huh?

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Old cortatio and cappuccino over there.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Here's pseudo-Italian drive, drive time shock jocks. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, neuroscientists, CEOs, rocket scientists, undercover, former jihadi cult leaders, you get the idea. This week, we had Rob Reid, who's none of those things, on AI and synthetic biology and how AI could enable essentially amateurs to make super deadly scary biological weapons. Super chill conversation, as you can imagine. And Gabriel, were you telling me this morning that you read in the New York Times that Claude or Anthropic caught people doing this, actually, like, the day we recorded the episode?

• 2:56Speaker 03

  Apparently, today it broke out.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Apparently, the story broke today, which is so crazy. Your interview with Rob Reid could not be coming at a better time.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I did it yesterday. And we also had Jamison Firestone on his crazy tales running a law firm in Russia in the early aughts. Really good storyteller, crazy upbringing. Fun show for those who haven't heard it yet. And we did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Family Court. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites and compare ourselves to various artisanal international beverages. Gabe, where are you right now? Your background is even more insane than usual today. Looks like you're in some sort of cathedral.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  I'm at my friend Yvonne's house in a tiny town in Italy called Val Tillegio. It's like this stunning valley in Lombardy, maybe an hour from Bergamo. So beautiful.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  I need you to describe the room that you're in. I'm seeing these huge windows and a lush garden and spiral wood staircase leading up to some kind of library and, of course, multi-colored throw pillows on a low couch. I mean, it just appears, there's also like a bust of what I can only assume is a Greek god or something like that, or maybe the...

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  What's going on there?

• 4:01Speaker 03

  On which our friend Lucia hangs her Go with the Flow of Nature baseball cap when she enters the house, which is my favorite touch.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a weird mashup. The room is giving Agatha Christie Murder Mansion if Agatha Christie also wrote erotic novels during the 70s.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  It's hard to tell what's going to break out first, a homicide or a, or a key party.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, really walk in that line between closed room mystery and open room orgy.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  And Victorian grandma, exactly.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Hopefully, that one's in the mystery.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  This place is bananas. I love it here so much. It's in the middle of, I think they call it the pre-Alps. You're not like Alps Alps, but pre-Alps. And you have these stunning, uh, dolomite-like rock formations, like those steep cliff faces that are just amazing.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Those, those limestone, huge limestone structures, is that what I'm to imagine?

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Yes. Right behind his house are these hiking trails that take you through them and past these lush alpine meadows, past old chapels that used to serve the town that used to exist here. It's just so beautiful. And, uh, next door, the neighbor keeps goats and they have bells around their necks. So while they graze all day, you just hear this distant chime of the bells, like a chaotic wind chime symphony, which you might hear today.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  That might end up on the recording today, folks. Sorry about that. Sorry about the wind chime goats.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  The wind chime goats. It sounds like when you used to walk by the ethnomusicology department in college. I don't know if you had one at Michigan, Jordan?

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  And you would hear the students playing these obscure instruments. It just sounds terrible. Uh, although the goats might actually be better than the students, uh, that I used to listen to. And then every hour and a half hour, the church nearby rings its bells, which is probably the most Italian thing I've ever heard. And it's, uh, beautiful, I guess, but kind of alarming, just because you feel time being marked and passing every day, which is kind of extraordinary.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, those old Italian church bells are next level. And I think most of them are probably automated now, right? I mean, you almost feel like you're back in the Middle Ages or something and there's some guy in a frock running up some stairs because he's a, he's got to ring the bells on time. Except you're also on your phone, looking at Twitter.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  Yvonne did a bunch of work on the house when he bought it. He turned the wine cellar into a sauna and he added a couple bedrooms, modern bedrooms, and he built a fountain and a meditation patio in the garden, but everything else he kept the same. It's amazing.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Glad he kept the windows. There's like jagged, rising, four-step, vertical windows looking out into the front yard. It's really cool. But, so question, who are the people in the photo over your shoulder and by the library? Is that Ivan? Yvonne?

• 6:28Speaker 03

  No, those are the previous owners, actually.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  So he just kept a photo of the previous owners up at his house?

• 6:34Speaker 03

  I had the exact same question when he gave me the tour. It's so funny. So I asked him and he said, "Well, it was their house, so I like to honor them by keeping their photo up." And then he goes, "There's also something of hers, the wife's, on the property, so I didn't want to take it down." But actually, English is not his first language, so I couldn't tell if he said something of hers on the property or something of her.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Ah, so like she's buried in the, what, what does that mean? That's, what does that mean?

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, so then he shows me around the garden, right? And he shows me this miniature sculpture that they have in the garden that the previous owners built in this enclosed area of two towers. And it was a 9/11 memorial that the owner built because he was from New York City.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Oh, a 9/11 memorial in Val Tillegio. How unusual.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  I know, it's so weird, right? And then Yvonne leads me to some bushes in the center of the driveway and he's like, "Come, look." And he pulled back the bushes and I peeked inside and there was a gravestone there.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Whoa, he buried his wife on the property?

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Apparently. I don't know if Yvonne knows if it's...

• 7:35Speaker 02

  So that's what he meant? There's something of her on the property? Yes, like her corpse?

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Like her corpse?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  He says he talks to her sometimes when he's walking around and he asks her for permission before he like hosts a yoga retreat at the house or stuff like that. So he says it goes a lot better when he does.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Wow, Gabe. I mean, look, I love these stories, you know I do, but you make it too easy to roast you for this ridiculous life you're living.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  I'm just reporting the facts, bappaccino. I take no stance on any of this. I'm just telling you what's happening.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Wow, Italian wind chime goats and New York pharmacist wife ghost in the same story.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  I didn't even tell you about the Jaguar and the Hummingbird mural in the basement.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  That's a whole other, that's a whole other subplot.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And you can sleep at night in this house?

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Like a baby. I don't even need my, my fancy earplugs here.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Don't goats sort of start doing their thing at 6:00 AM?

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Not these goats. They're very polite. They start around eight or nine, which is perfect for me.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  God's alarm clock right there. Well, Agatha Christie goat adjacent murder orgy cemetery. Good as, good a place as any to kick off the do's cruise, I suppose.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Let's doz it.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Crossing my fingers Gabe doesn't get poltergeistied halfway through this because he didn't ask the pharmacist wife for permission to record a podcast.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no, I did. I did it. I did it before we began.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Did you really?

• 8:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. When in Rome, dude. When in Val Tillegio.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Let's see what happens, Gabe. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm an analytics engineer. I tell stories so other people can make better decisions.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Wow, that's such a great way to describe that role. This guy's done six-minute networking because we teach that in there. SixMinuteNetworking.com.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  Dude just gave us a masterclass in personal branding here in the opening.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  You ever take an elevator so good the pitch ends before the doors close?

• 9:14Speaker 03

  The door is open and you're already buying this dude's stories for your better decisions.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  So he goes on, "I've been getting Google's security numbers texted to my dumb phone over the past week. I use it as my primary phone and keep my Wi-Fi smartphone as a tablet. It's part of my digital hygiene. I haven't seen any anomalous activity, so I figured it was just bad actors trying to hit my account and Google was doing its thing. But it was still bothering me. Is this just random or am I being targeted?" Fast forward to last night. "My wife put the little kids to bed and left our 12-year-old daughter in charge while we went to back to school night. I left her my phone in case she needed to reach us. When we got home, my daughter was in the kitchen by the family computer and she called us over. Dad, I have something to tell you. I got into your Google accounts."

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  She'd used the family computer to request a password reset. What's more, her siblings had busted up the keyboard, so she did all of this with the mouse and on-screen keys. Then she swapped the SIM card from my dumb phone to my smartphone. She'd memorized the PIN by watching over my shoulder. Then she reset the passwords to all the accounts she knew about. I didn't notice the SIM swap until the next day because she'd switched it back before I got home. Turns out, all those security codes over the past few weeks were being generated by her."

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Wow, bravo. So your kid just kicked your ass at your own profession.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Oh, man. Put that story in your pipe and smoke it, Dad. Wow.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow. I mean, he's a data analyst, so not a cybersecurity professional necessarily, but he has good hygiene. So I can only imagine what his response was. This is such a great moment. This kid reminds me a lot of me as a kid, right? Like, I did this thing that's really bad, but also you should be proud of me. And of course, like, my parents didn't usually have that reaction. But maybe this guy understands it quite a bit more.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  I was so proud. She totally red teamed me and was reporting her findings. At the same time, I also knew she had to learn how not okay this was. I told her that I appreciated the ethical disclosure. I also told her that this was violating in the extreme, that she was risking exposing herself to information totally inappropriate for her, and that getting into other people's accounts like this could be relationship-ending or worse. I asked her why she had done it. She said she wanted to see if she could do it.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. That's as good a reason as any for a 12-year-old.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  I mean, for engineer, 12-year-olds, definitely, that mentality.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  It seems like she'd scared herself in the process, just seeing what she was capable of.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you're catching up to the fact that your daughter's two clicks away from becoming Mr. Robot.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  I told her that her computer privileges were revoked through the end of the week. I had to really struggle to sound upset and suppress my smile. "I know I need to update my security settings. The part I'm struggling with is how to respond in a way that both honors her ingenuity and firmly teaches the ethical boundaries. I've spent years encouraging her curiosity, her security mindset, and her interest in hacking culture. She listens to Darknet Diaries with me. She reads security books. She thinks like a red teamer. And now she's demonstrating real skill enough to compromise my accounts using only household tools."

• 12:26Speaker 02

  You have created a monster. This is all on you. It's a huge compliment, actually.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  These two are so cute. I love that they listen to Darknet Diaries together and talk about hacking together. This is the cutest father-daughter team I've heard of. I'm proud of her, but I'm also shaken by how easily she crossed a line she didn't fully understand. How do I guide a precocious, technically gifted kid toward ethical hacking and responsible curiosity without normalizing boundary breaking or violating privacy? How do I show her she has a superpower while teaching her the gravity of misusing it? Signed, hoping I can stoke my daughter's talent after she broke both the precious code and into my phone."

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Wow, yeah, good question. So this is one of those interesting moments as a parent where you, "You absolutely cannot do this." And I'm also impressed and weirdly proud of you. They both apply equally. And sometimes Jaden does something like, I'll just be like, "All right, you can't call another kid a boring muppet after biting him." Or, "You can't ask the teacher, 'Why do we have to do this assignment? It's totally pointless," or whatever. But I'm also like, fighting down a smile. And sometimes, I mean, maybe less with the biting, but fighting down a smile as I parent him because sometimes he's not wrong, you know? And I was also the same way as a kid. Like, I need to know why I have to do this, or I'm not gonna do it. So it's like, I need to be a good parent, but I'm also a person. And if I heard someone my own age say the same thing, I would just laugh, of course.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Such a funny spot to be in as a parent.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really is. If Junie hacked into my iCloud and then told me afterwards, it would be a similar thing. Like, okay, how do I encourage your talent while also keeping you out of prison?

• 14:00Speaker 03

  Totally. I mean, it sounds like more of a Jaden thing to do, but I take your point.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Totally. He's the engineer in the family. Junie's more likely to dance Swan Lake or something at this point, or be one of those mermaids in the tank you see at Disney.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  The equivalent would be of Junie Tonya Harding, the lead in Swan Lake, to get the part and then confess to you. And you would be like, okay, how do I nurture your ambition while also teaching you that assault and battery is wrong?

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, super dark example. I would hope she wouldn't do anything like that. Jeez.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  That escalated quickly. That got out of hand. I'm sorry about that.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. The idea that I could create the Tonya Harding of the dance world is just...

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Junie turns into the husband and Rosemary's baby for some reason.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  God, I hope not. But nice analogy, dark Gabe's. But so, okay, I really appreciate that you get the two halves of this conversation. The multiple things you need to keep an eye on as a parent, your daughter's skills and virtues, and her mistakes and potential flaws. I feel like a lot of parents struggle with this. They jump straight to punishment mode and they focus on managing the risk or the offense, which I get. But then, yeah, they miss an opportunity to appreciate what this mistake, and I put mistake in radio air quotes here, what this mistake is actually revealing about your daughter's talent and her personality and her interest in the world, which is, of course, awesome if well-cultivated, well-directed. But you're not doing that, and I love that. And I also think the fact that she's confessed to you is a really good sign. That tells me she has a conscience. She knew when it

• 15:23Speaker 02

  was time to own up to it. She trusted you to hear that and not go totally crazy. All of that suggests that your daughter isn't some antisocial hacker with zero regard for privacy or other people's feelings or rights. She's a talented, curious, resourceful kid with a playful relationship with the rules who still has a moral compass. That's an appropriate place to be at age 12.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Doesn't that kind of make her the dream hacker?

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, 100% now that you mention it. So my advice is, I think you start with one big conversation with your daughter about all this. In this conversation, I would say something like, "So, as you know, hacking into my phone and email, that was wrong. It was a violation of my privacy. It was a secret for a long time. It broke our trust. And if you had done it to somebody else outside the family, it could have broken the law." By the way, it breaks the law even if you do it to your own family members, but you don't have to scare her that much just yet. You cannot do this to someone's device or software again, both because it's morally wrong and because it's also illegal. There's a difference between being able to do something and having permission to do something. This kind of thing could get you into serious trouble with other people, with the police,

• 16:29Speaker 02

  especially as you get older. So are we clear on this? You gotta give her the serious parent talk, some version of that. Make sure it lands, that she gets it. I think she will. Then you get to do the fun part, which is celebrate the other side of all this. I would probably be like, "Okay, all that said, I'm very happy you told me that was the right thing to do. When you do something wrong, it's important to own up to it. Figure out why you did it. Figure out how not to do it again. And I gotta tell you, daughter, even though this was dodgy, I'm really impressed. This mistake has also shown me you're even smarter than I knew. You're curious. You're super resourceful. I love it. You obviously love tech and hacking and playing with the rules. You know I'm an engineer too, so all of this is really exciting to me. If you enjoy this stuff, we could have a lot of

• 17:12Speaker 02

  fun going further into this world without doing anything illegal or taking any big risks. And if you want, I'd love to do that with you."

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Oh, I love that approach. And so how does he do that? Does he like, give her homework assignments, like some fun side projects? I feel like ChatGPT could help somehow with this.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  That's what I was thinking. He could give her a lab, like, create an environment, maybe with the help of AI, where she has explicit authorization to attack things. Maybe you can create deliberately vulnerable applications, capture the flag competitions, cybersecurity education platforms, home lab exercises, all designed around exactly this distinction. Here's an idea. You could do a father-daughter trip to DEFCON in Las Vegas. This is the big hacker conference. I spoke there probably, I don't know, 15 years ago. It's really fun. They have a really cool kid or youth track, I should say, with kid curriculum in there. They'll learn how to pick locks. They'll give her cybersecurity training. There's capture the flag stuff, which is like hacking into things that you have permission to hack into. And some of those things are cool. The adults, I haven't seen the kid track

• 18:11Speaker 02

  recently, but I remember the adults, like an ATM company, Gabriel Debold, they'll go and they'll just put ATMs in a room. And they're like, "All right, it's open so that you don't have to break it, but you can try whatever you want. Hook up your laptop to it." So they just let you hack the ATM. And then the idea is, if you are successful in any way at all, they want to know exactly how it's done. And I think they have like a $10,000, whatever, $100,000 grand prize, because it's cheap for them to get some of the world's best hacker talents in there to figure out how to mess with something without getting in trouble. And then they just plug massive, potentially multimillion-dollar security holes before somebody else finds it. So it's really fun.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  That's awesome. I love that.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's cool. It's all designed to encourage kids' technical skills and teach them about ethical hacking. They have, the cellphone companies do it too. They'll just, they'll drop, I mean, I remember at the time Motorola had dropped off like the new, I think Razors or something like that. And you could just go in there and hook up alligator clips to stuff or plug in your USB and guys were just writing. Software on the fly to find out what ports were open on the fly. It was really, it's really cool. You're watching real life Mr. Robot and these are the world's best hackers. They're all in the room. It's really a cool thing to see and you can make your own family version of this. You can make a disposable account, a virtual machine or a sandbox where you define the scope beforehand of what's allowed. You know, you give her actual rules. Here's your target. Here's what you're allowed to attack. Here's what you're not allowed to touch.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Here's when the exercise ends. If you discover something out of scope, you gotta stop and report it. If you accidentally encounter private information, you don't continue exploring it. Afterwards, you write up what you found and how it should be fixed and just let her go crazy, man. I think she's gonna love it. I think there's, I would bet there's stuff like this already online. I know there are hacker challenges and bug bounties, but this is a great place to start with that. And I would also tell her, from now on, if you want to test something else, ask me and we'll define what you're allowed to attack. If you ever discover access accidentally, stop, don't look around, tell me, I want to help you get extremely good at this. But part of getting extremely good is becoming someone other people can trust with that ability. This accomplishes a few things.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  You're not just telling her about ethics in some abstract sense, you're making the ethics part of the technical discipline. You're not saying, never break things, stay far away from this stuff. You're teaching her, never test somebody else's things without permission. Let's do this thoughtfully. And if your daughter continues to show interest and skill in this world, I would absolutely encourage this interest of hers as much as possible, as early as possible, send her to summer coding camp. Get her started on Claude, GitHub, open source projects. Send her to a school with a computer science program. There's probably even high schools that have good programs like this now. This didn't exist in my day, obviously. You could encourage her to start a program like this or enroll her in some sort of after school program. Encourage her to connect with other kids who are into hacking or grownups who might

• 21:03Speaker 02

  be interested in mentoring a promising young child. I wouldn't find those people on the internet. Probably didn't need to tell you that, but just some of the hackers on the internet can be shady. If you gently encourage her and try to get her into the right environments, your daughter could easily end up with a nice job out of college, maybe even before college or instead of college. She could be coding apps that take off. I mean, AI does a lot of that, but she'll learn how to use all that. And she could be running a cybersecurity team at a big company. Who knows? The possibilities are endless. What a gift it would be to cultivate her passion young and give her good guidelines. Also, I would ask your daughter to document everything she did to hack into your stuff and propose security fixes for all of it, as if she were a professional penetration tester for you. I bet she'd love that assignment.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Then you basically have your very own personal security consultant as part of her penance.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  Such good ideas, Jordan. I love, I love all of this. I think she is gonna love it, too.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  What you want your daughter to understand is the difference between a security professional and a criminal is authorization. It's not technical ability.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  I think it would be a really nice question to ask yourself and maybe even your daughter, what's trying to make itself known in this hacking your phone secretly thing? Because, you know, besides her obvious technical skill, I think it is revealing that she's a bit of a rebel, which you already kind of knew, but maybe you didn't realize how much of a rebel she really is. She likes to push the envelope. She likes to see how far she can go. She might even like to do something quote unquote, bad or wrong within certain constraints. Unchecked, that can obviously become a flaw or pretty big risk, but nurtured correctly and balanced with these principles we're talking about, it can become a virtue as well as a highly lucrative talent. I don't know about you, Jordan, but I feel like this kid is like on a straight shot to becoming a Google engineer in a few years or working at Motorola and testing all of their devices.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  It's just so cool. So this is a really special opportunity for both of you, for you to get to parent your child in the best sense of the term, not just to punish, but also to appreciate your child's gifts and qualities that are peeking out and for your daughter to feel that dad can make room for both parts of her, the good kid and the rebel. You know, the one who confesses and the one who secretly stole your SIM card, which will avoid the sadly common pitfall of inadvertently cutting off these parts of a child and kind of sending them underground when they only get punished, which you are not doing and which is wonderful. But I think when parents do that, and I can understand why they do it, they kind of miss the other half of this, there's the potential for these skills or these interests to become scary or shameful or just underutilized.

• 23:32Speaker 03

  And then they might go underground and continue to make themselves known in more difficult ways, you know, as actually criminal behavior, for example, or as more symptoms like depression or anger, because parts of them are not able to come out, rather than being explored in joyful, productive ways as work and as play, where they can flourish and serve her in so many ways. So I just have to say, I love your lens on this whole moment.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Well said, Gabe. Totally agree with that. I think a nice question would be, why did you confess? Was it an inherent moral sense? Was it guilt? Was it fear? Did you just want dad's approval? I would get clear on that slash invite her to reflect on that because A, that'll determine if she's gonna do stuff like this again and you might want to be prepared if you need to parent a little harder. But more importantly, B, that could also be part of this process you guys are in, to locate her inborn ethical compass and encourage that. So I hope that helps you walk this line with your daughter. I'm genuinely excited about all this because I think it might be the start of your daughter's talents calling whatever you want to call it in life. I mean, plus when she goes on job interviews and she's on hacking panels and stuff, she'll have this killer story to tell. It's very charming to think about a 12-year-old girl hacking into her dad's phone and Google

• 24:41Speaker 02

  accounts. I mean, mostly your own fault for having poor security, but either way, hiring managers and audiences are gonna eat that up. And in the meantime, yeah, you got up your security game. Your daughter's unsolicited pen test gave you a rather excellent threat model and attack her with physical access who knows you personally. So she's already done you a huge solid in that way. Love that you're taking this stance with her. Love that you want to encourage her while also guiding her. She's a lucky kid and good luck. All right, now we're gonna peek over your shoulder and make sure you're using our discount codes for the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and AMD. Cybersecurity threats keep evolving, but is your business prepared for what comes next?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month, an opportunity to look beyond day-to-day security operations and ask bigger questions about how your organization protects its data, its infrastructure and its ability to keep doing business. The Cybersecurity Tapes brings these questions to life, blending fictional cyber attacks with practical perspectives from real experts to make complex security challenges easier to understand. As AI moves from models to autonomous agents, securing it requires careful consideration from the start. Explore how securing AI agents, sovereign AI and AI governance fit into that effort and how AI itself can help strengthen cybersecurity. Effective protection also means connecting security operations to measurable business outcomes. How do you talk to your board about cybersecurity?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  And how can those conversations help leaders understand whether the business is truly protected? When an attack happens, resilience becomes essential. It's not just about safeguarding data, it's about ensuring the infrastructure your business depends on can recover quickly and keep running. And as quantum computing advances, preparing for tomorrow's threats means understanding the risks today, prioritizing readiness and building defenses that can adapt as encryption requirements change. This Cybersecurity Awareness Month, tune into what's next. Visit dell.com/cybersecuritymonth to learn how to protect your business and subscribe to the Cybersecurity Tapes to explore the threats, strategies and ideas shaping cybersecurity. This episode is also sponsored by ZipRecruiter. I use tools to optimize pretty much everything. If I catch myself doing the same task over and over, my first thought is, there's gotta

• 26:52Speaker 02

  be a way to automate this. Reminders, organizing emails, ordering household essentials, I want those things handled without having to think about them. Because we all have a limited amount of time and I'd rather spend mine having an interesting conversation or maybe hanging out with my kids. We all have our own time-saving hacks for everyday life, but if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first, so you save time by meeting the right people faster. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/jordan. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly. Candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/jordan. That's ziprecruiter.com/jordan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the show and supporting the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Okay, next up.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Early last year, I met a woman who seemed perfect for me in many ways. She was calm, quirky, supportive, and incredibly easy to be around. We encouraged each other, shared many of the same values, and didn't need expensive dates or elaborate plans to be happy. I was also very physically attracted to her, and we had a great sex life. At the end of last year, we got married. But around the time we became engaged, something started changing. We were an international couple, and shortly before our wedding, we spent about a month in separate countries while preparing for me to move to hers. During that month, her habits changed dramatically. She began eating pizza, fried chicken, oily stir-fry,

• 28:45Speaker 03

  chips, candy, and other calorie-dense foods almost every day. She wasn't working and spent most of her days lying in bed. On video calls, I noticed that she looked heavier, but initially thought it might be the camera angle. Eventually, I made some subtle suggestions. Didn't you just have a pizza a couple of days ago?

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Oh, bro.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Or suggested getting meat prepared differently instead of fried. She always had an explanation. The oil was healthy.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Protein was the most important nutrient. We need fat anyway.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Okay, unlimited quantities. I mean, all right, okay, a little rationalization going on here, fine.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Eventually, she told me there was nothing to worry about because she, quote, "doesn't have the DNA to get fat," unquote.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Not a thing.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  I tried to explain calories in versus calories out, but she insisted DNA was more important.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 29:37Speaker 03

  When I arrived in her country, we happened across a scale and discovered she'd gained five kilograms in that one month. The rapid gain concerned me, but there's another uncomfortable part of this. Physical attraction is important to me. I'm attracted to healthy-looking women, using a healthy BMI as a rough reference. When we met, she was comfortably within that range and cycled about 45 minutes each way to work, and we regularly ate nutritious food together. When I arrived in her country, she was now in the overweight BMI category. After we married and began living together, the pattern continued. She got a sedentary job, did virtually no exercise, and continued gaining weight. She insisted the additional weight was muscle

• 30:20Speaker 03

  because she ate so much protein despite doing no strength training. Meanwhile, our sex life started suffering. I sometimes couldn't stay aroused once clothes came off. When she asked what was wrong, I initially blamed headaches or tiredness. Eventually, I realized that wasn't fair to either of us. So I told her directly that my physical attraction had declined because of the changes to her body and lifestyle. I explained that I'm simply not sexually attracted to overweight women, and that seeing someone take care of themselves, being active, and eating reasonably well is itself attractive to me. She became angry and said, "I don't like it when you threaten me. That sounds like a threat." I explained that I wasn't threatening her or demanding a particular weight.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  I was being honest about something already affecting our marriage. I suggested walks and healthier food choices together, but she usually said she was too tired, wanted to lie in bed, and wanted to eat whatever she wanted. Huh, this girl is really going through it. There's something else going on. After about six months together, we decided to move to my country. I went ahead to find an apartment and get established, and we've now been apart for about a month while I work on her immigration paperwork. She's currently living with her parents, is not working, rarely leaves the house, and spends most of the day in bed playing mobile games or watching sitcoms. She's gained more weight, and this is making me question something much bigger. I'm middle-aged, but I want to remain active as I get older.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  I generally eat whole foods, walk 7,000 to 10,000 steps a day, and cycle roughly 60 kilometers a week. I don't expect my wife to copy my lifestyle or have a perfect body, but I do want a partner who wants to participate in life with me and with whom I can share some degree of an active lifestyle. Her body belongs to her. She gets to decide what she eats, whether she exercises, and what she weighs. But I also can't manufacture sexual attraction that I don't feel. I've stopped bringing up her weight because she already knows how I feel, and constantly commenting on her body seems both cruel and pointless. I still love my wife deeply, but I'm starting to wonder what our marriage will look like

• 32:31Speaker 03

  if my physical attraction continues to decline, the sex life we once enjoyed disappears, and our lifestyles keep moving in opposite directions. Can someone actually encourage their spouse to change something like this? Or does the desire have to come entirely from her? Is it fair for me to be honest about how this is affecting my attraction? Or is this something I need to quietly accept? Or is this not really a weight issue anymore, but a values and lifestyle incompatibility?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Bingo, focus on this, but there's also something else going on here in addition to that.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Should I slow the immigration process down until we figure this out? I don't want to use immigration as leverage, but it seems foolish to make another enormous life decision while I'm questioning whether the lives we want are compatible. Can a marriage survive on emotional love and companionship alone when physical attraction and sexual compatibility are important to both partners? Do we simply want very different lives? Signed, wondering if I should pump the brakes because my marriage seems to be changing shape.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Oh, boy, this is a really interesting one, also a really tough one. There are a few things going on here. All right, so obviously, I'm very sorry you guys are going through this. I'm sorry for her. She's turning to unhealthy, high-calorie foods. She's given up exercising, she's lying in bed, she's living this sedentary life. This has got to feel crappy. Not great for her, even if she's defending it and thinks that's what she wants to do. But I'm sorry for you as well. You're watching your spouse stop taking care of herself. That it's affecting your sex life, it's making you question your future together. This is really tough. So to cut to the chase here, yeah, I feel it's fair for you to be honest about how this is affecting your attraction to your wife. Because, and hear me out, because I know I'm going to get angry emails from people accusing me of being shallow or fat-shaming.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Every time we address this topic, those come in. Which, I mean, come at me with those takes. They're misguided and frankly, usually just deliberately obtuse. Because what you're asking for from your wife in this case is not unhealthy or unrealistic. You're saying that you're attracted to a normal, healthy body in a sort of medically-agreed-upon, normal BMI. Now BMI has its problems, but I think we can all get on board that there's a such thing as a healthy weight, and people who pretend that there isn't are living in La La Land. You're not asking her to look like a Calvin Klein model from the 90s. You're not expecting her to copy your lifestyle or have a quote-unquote "perfect body," like you said. You're recognizing that she gets to decide how she cares for her body within reason.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Also, this is not just about aesthetics or your personal attraction quirks. This is about her health. She was active and responsible before, now she's not. That's a medical issue for her. This is not like, I need you to look a certain way because that's what I'm into. That's not what this is about.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  And you say you still love your wife deeply. You want her to age well with you. You want to help her take care of herself. You're not going, "Your body's changed, I'm out," you know? Or, "I didn't realize that I was mostly just physically attracted to this person. Now I'm not so sure." That would be a different story.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  That's right. I'm also just remembering that this isn't just about how she looks, right? Seeing his wife take care of herself, being active, eating reasonably well, that itself is attractive to him, and I get that. I think most people do, or would.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Also, this was clearly affecting their sex life no matter what, right? He literally couldn't do the act. Neither of them could pretend that it wasn't happening. So his choice was lie to his wife or be honest about what's going on. That is not an easy conversation to have. I do not envy him for having to have it, but it does seem to me an essential one in a marriage that works this way.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  I agree. Lying to her wouldn't be fair to either of you. You'd be keeping something important from your wife. You'd be depriving her of information that could help her realize that this is something she needs to take seriously. Now, how you say all of this, of course, matters enormously. There's a right way and a wrong way to do this. For all those reasons, I believe you're on very solid ground here. I mean, sure, you could quietly accept this, but the cost is going to be your sex life, your degree of honesty and emotional intimacy, and your personal integrity. And I'm guessing, deep down, you're never really going to fully accept it. So from that perspective, I'm not sure that's really an option. Gabe, I'm trying to figure out what changed here. Like, what made her do such a 180? You know, that's the concerning, the most concerning part.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  Yes, that is very much the question. The only clue in his letter is that around the time they became engaged, something started changing. Her habits changed dramatically, but he didn't say what.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  So was she taking good care of herself? And then as soon as she locked down a husband, she's like, "Cool, I can stop trying and eat whatever I want now." And, you know, here, now that I've said that out loud, that sounds unfair. There's got to be more going on here. I mean, I've heard sentiments like that in some places, but this seems too dramatic of a change. Something else has to be going on here.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  I'm almost sure there is. It's possible that something else happened during this period when she stayed in her country alone, and then later, when she started living with her parents. Whether it's related to her living situation or it's something else entirely, we cannot know. But let's also remember that this isn't just eating poorly and not exercising. She's not working. She rarely leaves the house. She spends most of the day in bed, playing games on her phone or watching TV. This is pretty serious.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, this just sounds like depression to me. I mean, if you stop exercising because you get busy at work, that's different than, "I'm not getting out of bed. I quit my job, also I'm not biking, and I just want to play Candy Crush and watch Netflix." That's a lot of changes at once.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  I think there's a very strong likelihood that she's depressed, at the very least. I think he's approaching this as a lifestyle problem. Need to eat better, you need to work out. I want you to be with me in this kind of life. I think it's likelier that our habits and values around diet and exercise and the weight gain that's happened recently are all expressions of a deeper issue.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, like she's having some tough thoughts and feelings, sadness, shame, depression, fear, God knows what else, and she's comforting herself with food. Maybe it's hard living with her parents. Maybe she's not talking about that. I mean, who, maybe she's unsure about getting married also or immigrating. I don't know. I mean, it's, there's a lot going on with your, y'all's lives that could be part of the culprit here.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  A lot of change and a lot of uncertainty. And I think you are absolutely right to zero in on that because this predated her moving in with her parents. And this is a huge thing to get married and then move to another country. Big changes. So, yeah, and by the way, not just food, right? Games, TV, perhaps all forms of coping, comforting, numbing with the feelings that come with these transitions.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And look, I mean, I can relate. Eating crap is one of my biggest dopamine levers and it's caused me problems for the majority of my life. Not that I realized I had those as a problem until I was about 40, but it's a big thing. I mean, I remember eating junk and be like, it's fine. And then when I made this shift, I was kind of like, oh, you can get dopamine from working out. I remember this. It's not as fun. It's not as easy, but it's way better for you. And I was just like, you know, I'm gonna do that instead. So, yeah, on some level, I can really relate to his wife, whatever she's going through.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  In general, it sounds like she's withdrawing from life, perhaps maybe because she knows this is a problem. And then withdrawing from life, of course, is probably giving her permission to continue treating herself this way. But if he's gonna make progress with her, I think he first needs to invite his wife to talk about that stuff. He needs to get curious about that stuff himself and not just, you know, what are you eating and how much are you exercising? Because that's almost certainly where the root problem actually is.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  I agree. And the best way to do that is what?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  I think he needs to say something like, I can see that you've been going through some big changes recently, some new feelings. There's a lot of change in our lives. We're contemplating making this really big move. You're not working, you're not going out very much, you're spending a lot of time in bed, a lot of time on your phone. I know life can get hard. We're not spending as much time together during this period and maybe that's also challenging. I am not here to make you feel bad about any of this. I just love you and I'm getting concerned about you. And I want to ask if you want to talk about anything, tell me how you're feeling right now. I'm here for you and I would like to listen.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Simple. Just start there and see how she responds.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  She might need some coaxing to open up. I don't get the sense that she's like bursting at the seams, waiting for him to take an interest. She seems very defensive about all this, based on the whole, that sounds like a threat comment. So he might have to be patient and draw her out a little bit.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  The thing is, that defensiveness is probably a shame response.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, for sure.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  On some level, she knows this is a problem, right? He's openly acknowledging it. And because it's such a tender spot for her, which is understandable, she's putting it back on him, like, oh, what, you're threatening me that you're gonna leave if I'm not skinny or that's what you're doing?

• 40:55Speaker 02

  But that's not a fair move on her part. That's decidedly not what he's doing.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  No, it's not. I'm just saying that's probably where it's coming from and maybe that helps him understand it better. And one way to respond to that kind of retort would be, I'm not threatening you with anything. I'm not going anywhere. I'm here, I love you, and because I love you, I'm sharing this information with you and I'm here to talk about all of it with you as much as you want so that we can find the answer together.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Nice, I like that. So, yes, of course, someone can encourage their spouse to make some changes and I think it's important that you try, but I think Gabe's right. Right now, you need to be mostly curious and patient and ask good questions and listen. That's the best thing you can do. Try to get to the root of this thing, not encourage her to lose weight. The weight's a secondary problem. And the desire to change does ultimately have to come from her. We all know this, but I think you're gonna have a lot more luck in helping her tap into that desire by having a larger conversation first. I also think the best support you can give her is to, A, encourage her to just go get a checkup, do some basic labs, see what the overall picture is, because if there's a hormonal imbalance or a deficiency of some kind, whatever it is, that would be great to know.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  And B, encourage her to consider going to therapy and talk about what she's going through these days, because this might be more than you as her husband can really help her work through on your own.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  Totally agree. Let's remember that we are talking about a woman who went from cycling 90 minutes a day to not getting out of bed. Like, this is really worrisome. There's something going on. And I think even if she's making it difficult, I think she is probably desperate for somebody to listen to her and somebody to talk to about this.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm far more concerned about that than I am about five kilos or whatever it was. The five kilos are only, this one tiny manifestation of this larger issue that she's struggling with. And I also want to say, he needs to stop being the food police. That's not helpful, it's not gonna work. It's really only gonna shame her and make her dig her heels in further. She does have some fundamental misconceptions about nutrition with the DNA thing and the oil and protein stuff, but you can figure that crap out later if she still believes it after all is said and done. You need to talk about your relationship. He needs to talk about what he misses doing with her, all the things he wants them to do together for years to come. And I think that's the kind of stuff that's much more likely to draw her out of this.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Completely agree. And so, yes, I think you're right. This is not a weight issue fundamentally. It's a values issue. It's also a relational issue between the two of you. But the values aren't just about, you know, self-care and lifestyle. I think the relevant values are how you guys take care of yourselves mentally, emotionally, how you guys meet these challenges, these conversations, whether it's with curiosity and openness and a willingness to hear some difficult things sometimes, or with anger and fear and a resistance to seeing where one or both of you needs to grow. I think that's what you're hearing when your wife says things like, are you threatening me? I also think there are some interesting values at play here around whether a person should have to struggle at all, have to grow at all, and how to ask for help and how to stay connected to life when things get hard.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  But I also understand that these values, you know, we're calling them values, but I also understand that these values can be hard to stay connected to for some people or even for some people to appreciate if they've struggled in certain ways or if they have certain traumas or if they were raised in a certain way. But so, there are several dimensions on which you might be realizing that you guys are not completely aligned right now. And that doesn't mean your marriage is doomed. These are just the qualities that are gonna play a big role in your conversations and probably the quality of your relationship for the rest of your lives. And so, it might be worth asking yourself whether these are values that you take seriously to, if they are non-negotiable for you? And if so, how you can gently, respectfully invite her to take more of an interest in

• 44:35Speaker 03

  them, slash, take an interest in them again, because let's remember she did used to be this way, which does help. And maybe you can show her how it's done.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Well put. As for slowing the immigration process down until you've figured this out, ooh, that's an intense question, because it sounds a lot like we need to take a break from each other, but I'm gonna do that under the guise of my attorney being overwhelmed in the immigration process being kind of insane.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  It's a curious question because I'm not clear on how slowing down the immigration process would actually help them figure this out. If anything, things seem to get worse when they're apart.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Good point, but I feel like what he's really saying is, I'm losing faith in this relationship and I don't know if I want to spend 30 grand and all this time getting a green card for my wife if we're gonna separate in six months. So maybe it would be more helpful to ask, if you did slow down the immigration process, what would you hope to accomplish?

• 45:24Speaker 03

  And how, exactly?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, because is this about your feelings changing? Is this about not having to spend more time together in person because it's too stressful or upsetting? Is this about sending her a message? Like, I tried to talk to you about this, you need to take it seriously because I'm not moving forward on the paperwork if you continue like this.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  Great questions. I guess all of these could be true for him, but I feel like he might be getting cold feet after the fact.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe the most important thing about this is, this is really giving him pause, even though he still loves her. My feeling about all this is, I would not casually continue a major legal slash immigration process while questioning whether your marriage is viable. But also, you shouldn't use that as leverage with your wife. Like, this cannot be lose weight or I'm stopping your visa process. That's messed up, man, and it's gonna be deeply hurtful. You need to separate the immigration question from your wife's mental and physical health questions. I'm actually not convinced that a marriage can survive successfully, you know, fulfillingly on emotional love and companionship alone, when physical attraction and sexual compatibility are important to both partners. Yes, there are some couples that have figured out ways around that. If it's not important to both partners, great, that's not an issue.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  But if you both want to be sexually compatible and one of you is treating her mind and body poorly and unwilling to take in some tough but important information and make some changes, and nothing's changing over a long period of time, that to me is a very serious challenge. So, yeah, it's possible you guys actually want different lives. But more to the point, it's possible that you guys want different realities. If she goes, yeah, look, I'm 30 pounds overweight, I'm depressed, this is a problem, I could use some help, that's actually a really good response. The other side of this coin is, let's say she loses 30 pounds, maybe to please you and resents you for it and sees every conflict and challenge you guys get into as a couple through a wildly different lens, that would actually be a bad response, which sort of proves to me it's not really about the weight, right?

• 47:15Speaker 03

  But something that would be excellent to know now, this reality question, which one are you guys living in before you guys move forward with a huge move?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  I strongly agree. So, look, I hope you guys can talk. I hope she can open up and bear the feelings that come with that. I hope you can listen and validate her and help her get clear on where these changes are coming from and/or she does that with a therapist. Then you can tackle the lifestyle stuff, or it starts to take care of itself on its own if she makes progress on these deeper themes, which would be my hope. Sending you both a big hug and wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us, [email protected]. Please keep your emails concise, try to use a descriptive subject line, that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your in-laws stole your house from you, you discovered your BFF at work is in the throes of a serious addiction, or you went on vacation with your boyfriend to Italy only to be ghosted and invoiced for the entire thing, still shaking my head about that one, Gabe.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. You know what else is gonna make you never want to leave the house? Gora-phobically great products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. It's pretty incredible that our friends and family can live all over the world and we can still be part of each other's everyday lives. The grandparents can see the kids show off something they learned, a friend miles away can send a photo that makes you laugh. We're fortunate that staying close doesn't have to mean living close. Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with iPhone Trade-In, any condition. It has the most advanced iPhone camera ever, a big leap in battery life, so you can turn this deal into a long-lasting connection. This fall, whether you're making holiday plans or calling just to catch up, make a little time for the people who matter. Learn how you can trade in your iPhone in any condition and get the new iPhone 18 Pro at AT&T. Learn how a deal this good can keep the good times going. AT&T, connecting changes everything.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Requires trade-in of iPhone 14 or higher excluding iPhone 16E and eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details. This episode is sponsored in part by Concierge MD. I've tried plenty of telehealth and concierge services over the years, and a lot of them sound great until you actually need something. Then you're waiting on shipping, you're chasing them down, you're sitting through rushed appointments where nobody really explains anything. That has not been my experience with Concierge MD at all. What stands out most is how responsive they are. Orders get sent to the pharmacy quickly, and in my experience, medications have shipped the next day or shortly thereafter. But it's not just speed, it's about communication. They take the time to explain what I'm taking, how it works, why it matters. They don't talk down to me, and they're not trying to rush me off the phone after a few minutes. That is surprisingly rare.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  And for me, health and performance aren't one size fits all. I want a physician-led team that looks at the bigger picture. Energy, sleep, recovery, hormones, longevity, travel, lifestyle, and helps me understand what is actually going on. They even helped with documentation that I needed for a trip to China and sent a travel thermos fridge thing to help keep medication cold during the flight. Small detail, but it showed that they really were paying attention. Concierge MD works around your schedule and keeps everything connected under one roof. Go to conciergemdla.com/Jordan and use code JORDAN. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It's a past gem from us to you, an under-two-minute read and highly practical. JordanHarbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Okay, next up.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Hi, gang. Recently, I've been feeling more and more disconnected from my parents. I'm a millennial, and they're boomers, and like the stereotypes suggest, we are divergent in many of our political views, as well as our religious practices, or lack thereof in my case. This wasn't always the case. Growing up and even into adulthood, we've always been a relatively tight-knit family. For the last few years, however, these differences have started having profound negative effects on the relationships my sister and I have with them. As they've aged, they've become more entrenched in their politics and more devout in their religion. Meanwhile, as I age, I become far less convicted or even interested in my political views, and I am no longer religious.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  On their end, I suspect this is happening because they're trying to fill the gaps in their identity left behind by retiring from their jobs, becoming empty nesters, et cetera, not to mention the large chunks of time they now have on their hands to become, quote-unquote, "informed." For me, the older I get, the less black and white these issues seem, and being a busy adult with a job, a house, a family, et cetera, I don't have the bandwidth or the desire to stay informed anymore. And even if I did, unfortunately, I've succumbed to somewhat of a nihilistic, "none of this matters anyway" view on these matters. I know this phenomenon is common as people age and move through different phases of their lives, and we seem to have reached a point of "agree to disagree," meaning that

• 52:00Speaker 03

  we know where the other stands and we just don't talk about it anymore because there's no point. But as they continue to allow politics and religion to take over more and more of their identity, I fear I will lose them completely, and what were once really meaningful and fulfilling relationships will be relegated to phone calls about the weather. How do you move forward and continue to have deep, meaningful relationships with those closest to you when the most important topics are off limits? Signed, a daughter who left the fold trying to get a hold of a way around my parents' blindfolds, when I don't fit into any mold because, truth be told, I'm just not sold that there's one way to view the world when the answers to life are manifold.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Really good question. I'm sure so many people listening right now are shaking their heads in agreement. So many families experience this divide, and it's really tough. So I'm sorry that you and your sister don't have the relationship with your parents that you used to have. I can hear how sad and worrisome that is in your email. I get it. You guys were tight. Now there's this ideological divide. You guys can't seem to really talk about it. Nobody's changing anybody's mind anytime soon. This is a big shift, and I'm sorry you're going through that. So one thing I find interesting about you and your parents is that they're very entrenched in their views. Surprise, surprise. It sounds like they're quite rigid, identified with their politics, which are informed slash backed up by their religious convictions, which makes them even stronger. Meanwhile, the older you get, the less black and white these issues really seem.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  You're not nearly as attached to your views, whatever they are, and you have other things to worry about anyway. In a way, that makes this harder, that they're so militant and committed to their ideas. They're saying, "This is how it is. God and our favorite cable news channel say that this is so." And you're saying, "Okay, I can see your argument up to a point, but this is complicated. Maybe there's some nuance. Do you understand why the other side is saying blah, blah, blah? Can you hold your views and not be so wrapped up in them?" Those are two very different positions, not just ideologically. Those are two different psychologies, two different relationships with beliefs, two different relationships with the world and self. That divide can be even harder to bridge than the specific positions themselves.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  In another way, though, this is very good news, because it means you have the intellectual flexibility, which is freedom, really, to understand your parents, to get closer to them, even when you disagree. If you were just as identified with your politics as they are with theirs, this would be much, much harder.

• 54:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is a really good point. I have to assume their religion is also playing a big role in this that's hard to overcome intellectually when these debates.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  I mean, how could it not, right?

• 54:33Speaker 03

  I'm sure their religion adds to the political conviction. Like you said, they have a community, they have a worldview, they have a whole system behind them. And she has, what, an appreciation for both sides? A low-key nihilism and Feedback Friday? I mean, not bad, but different.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. The scripture according to two dude-bro armchair psychologists.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  So it's possible that this rift between them has actually been developing for some time, and what she's actually up against is not just their politics, but the psychic nutrition for the meaning that they're hungry for now that they're retired. And that meaning feeds the self-image that they're trying to uphold. So when she pushes back with them, she's not just debating, you know, immigration reform or whatever. She's questioning kind of like the architecture of their sense of self. And I'm just appreciating that that can be very unsettling to a lot of people, especially people who build their identity on something as shaky as political ideology and who so quickly move to defend their views because they can't tolerate any disagreement or just are not very interested in it.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Bingo. And so the takeaway is what? Don't even try?

• 55:37Speaker 03

  I think the takeaway is just keep that in mind, and that might give you a little more compassion for your parents in these conversations, to remember that they're not just being difficult, they're probably looking for security, for meaning, and for coherence. And when you challenge them, whether they know it or not, it's probably a little distressing to them, maybe kind of scary for them. They might experience that fear as, "We know better, and we're afraid for our daughter because she doesn't see the truth." But the fear might be more like, "It's uncomfortable for us to acknowledge complexity and live with the ambiguity that our daughter seems to live with rather easily." The other takeaway is, if you're going to make any progress with your parents, you're probably going to have to get into that stuff. Whether they want to is another question.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Just like with the wife from the previous question, what is this problem really about?

• 56:23Speaker 03

  From what deeper wellspring do these ideological fights come from? But not everybody wants to ask, "What is this really about?" Or, "What are these ideas doing for me? What's my relationship with them?" You know, forget the ideas themselves. Like, what do they mean for me and my life?

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Also, just like the wife from the previous question, this shared sense of reality is an interesting theme today.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  I mean, look, you could try. You could ask them stuff like, "What do you find meaningful about your faith now that you're getting older?" Or, "How has retirement changed the way you think about your purpose?" Or, "How you view the world?" Or, "How you look at this debate?" Or, "What scares you about the direction the country is going?" Which, dangerous question to ask retired parents in this generation. They will probably go off, pop off on that question. But, look, you might not love the answers. They might not give you very satisfying ones, but questions like that, if you dig into them, could be potentially a portal into some more important things than just the debate, like values and feelings, including fear and needs and identity and meaning, without requiring that you guys agree on whom to vote for.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  I like that, Gabe. That's the best version of their political conversations. I will say this, though. I think it's important to remember that "deep" does not have to equal "ideologically intimate."

• 57:35Speaker 03

  That's a really important thing to keep in mind, yes.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  There's a tendency to equate meaningful relationships, especially with family, with being able to discuss our deepest beliefs. But intimacy can also live in family history and memories and feelings and parenthood and fun activities and discussions about other topics that are not political, like, I don't know, love and mortality and stories about your childhood and what they're proud of and what they wish they'd done differently, just talking and laughing together. I mean, that's a large part of adulting in families, I think. In fact, politics and religion can sometimes crowd out those more personal conversations. They're not the only meaningful subjects or conversations you can have. So I understand that you feel distant from your parents, and I totally get why, but this might actually be an opportunity to look hard-

• 58:21Speaker 02

  For the dimensions on which you and your parents can be close, dimensions you might have lost sight of because your political differences were so glaring.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  That's such a good point, Jordan. And in that way, the whole agree to disagree thing might actually be healthy and it might be very helpful.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  I agree. It's almost clarifying like, okay, that's not the conversation we're having. We need to have a different one or not one at all. She could literally say, I know politics and religion aren't great topics for us anymore, but I don't want us avoiding those things to mean we stop really knowing each other. I miss talking to you about things that matter. What else can we talk about?

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a nice way in. But listen, there's also a timeline and you might be starting to live it, where you and your parents never bridge this divide, in which case you guys really are not as close knit as you once were. And so your whole question might in fact be a question about coming to terms with this transition, which is a loss, you know? And dealing with the feelings that come with quote unquote, losing your parents to some degree, to these ideas, these influences, this psychology and or to your own, to be fair.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Her nihilism might itself be a position that she's identified with to some degree. To be clear, I don't hear her being like militantly nihilistic, like none of this matters. That's my belief. It's more of a default position born from her busyness, which I can also relate to. And also that appreciation for both sides that we talked about. But it's an interesting stance to keep an eye on because it is, whether she deliberately chooses it or not, a stance, just like her parents.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a really interesting point. But ultimately, we might just be talking about grief, you know? There's so much to say about this topic, but just hearing your story, my thoughts are, first of all, I'm not sure it's entirely bad for you and your parents to be separating. Yes, it's sad. Yes, it's distressing and maybe legitimately concerning, depending on the types of content that they're consuming and what they're doing with it in their minds, in their own little retired bubble. It's certainly different from what you guys had before. But also there might be some healthy separation here. You said that you and your parents were always a relatively tight knit family. We don't know what the nature of that closeness was, whether it was too close and what the terms were. But even if you guys were not, you know, enmeshed in some textbook way,

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  which does tend to entail a kind of intellectual alignment with your family. It sounds to me like being close with your parents, and I assume largely aligned with them politically, felt important and comforting to you and maybe to your sister as well. Now you don't have that and you have to contend with these new feelings. It sounds like anger, fear, confusion, sadness, all of which are hard, but might also be symptoms of a process you're in with your parents that is ultimately okay. And again, perhaps healthy, just this allowing them to be different from you and vice versa.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's painful, but it might also be necessary or at least helpful in some way.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  Well, look, it's already teaching her how to tolerate the differences that her parents cannot, you know? And how to accept a situation that's probably not fixable, at least not by her on her own. And how to love and connect with her parents, even when they don't share the same beliefs.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  That's true. This is profound stuff.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  I also think that adult children sometimes learn that the closeness they had with their parents was partly built on an assumption of sameness. And that sameness might not have really existed the way they thought. Or, you know, people just evolve. She and her parents have both evolved. Children individuate, parents get older and change their worldviews. Both of them have clearly evolved in a number of ways and that sameness changes and that's hard. But a mature version of this parental relationship, I would actually say any relationship, has to be built around the capacity to tolerate difference, not the hunger to recreate sameness.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Oh, facts. And there's grief in that too, isn't there?

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  I think so. Mourning one stage of their relationship and all of the expectations for it. And yeah, stepping into a new one.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  But I do think it's a better one. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone we were related to saw the world that we do, felt the way we did, wanted to have the same conversations we did in the same way? But it doesn't work that way, obviously. And what I'm appreciating today is it doesn't have to. So I'm very sorry you're going through this shift with your parents. There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about how they're coming to these positions, how they're sharing them with you. It's not easy and it's creating a good opportunity for you to create a close connection with them in a different way and to come to terms with some big stuff about life and family and relationships, which is ultimately great. So I hope you find that connection. I hope you and your sister manage to love them well, even as they change. And we're wishing you all a very peaceful, very non cable newsy Thanksgiving, I suppose this year. And good luck.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. A lot of fun discussions in there about just about every episode of the show over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You know what we can all agree on? The sponsors who make this show possible are worthy of your support. We'll be right back.

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

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• 1:03:36Speaker 05

  That sound? That's pro squash. Some of the fastest rallies in sport played inches from the crowd. The National Squash League is back in full swing for season four. The sport is heading to the 2028 Olympics for the first time and you can see it up close right now in a city near you. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at NSL.Sport.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show, jordanharbinger.com/deals. If a code's not working for you, you need a little help, just email us, [email protected]. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Feedback Friday.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Now for the recommendation of the week.

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  I am addicted to Litville.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  My recommendation of the week is these amazing socks called Darn Tough Tactical Boot Full Cushion Socks.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:40Speaker 03

  You know, these, these are great.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  I do know these. I have some in my drawer right now.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Obsessed with these things. Yet another Burning Man discovery for me. Burning Man honestly was probably the most valuable thing in so far as it introduced me to products that I still use to this day. I'm not like super keen to go back, but I love all the things I bought for it. So I needed socks that would breathe well during the super hot days, but also keep my feet warm during the freezing nights. These socks do exactly that. They're also incredibly comfortable. I don't know how they do it. I think it's the combination of merino wool and nylon. Somehow your feet don't sweat in them, but they also keep you warm. It's just magic. I think they call it like fast action wicking or whatever that pulls moisture away from your skin. I don't fully understand it, but the merino wool is soft and breathable. They're also guaranteed for life. So if the socks wear, tear, develop holes, Darn Tough will replace them, no questions asked.

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  Pretty amazing testament to their standards. And they're made in the US. Every pair of socks is knit in Northfield, Vermont, which is kind of cool. I love these socks. I brought several pairs with me on my trip. I can wear them multiple times without having to wash them. They're just as great for hiking as they are for hanging out in bed. I'm a huge fan of this company. Buy yourself a couple pairs. You won't regret it and we'll link to them as always in the show notes.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  I think the ones I have, I don't wear that much because they're warm. I brought them to the desert and stuff like that. But you're right, they're so cushiony. I always think it's funny when companies will replace something, no questions asked, like, hey, what did you do to the, what are you going to ask? Oh, hey, what, how did you rip your socks? I wore them a lot. Oh, okay, that's good enough for us. It's like, yeah, but it is, it's nice to have a company that will just replace things that don't work out well. Another brand that I love, Kettle Mountain. Sorry to hijack your recommendation of the week, but I've, I've recommended them before. They have a crew of seamstress ladies that are just like these older ladies all over the United States. So you can send in a jacket, like a raincoat or pants or something like that and go, yeah, I don't know, I fell off my mountain bike and I ripped these.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  And they'll just fix it for you and mail it back and it's free.

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  Wow, that's awesome. What a model.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And of course, if it's a raincoat, I don't know if they can fix that. I guess they have ways to do it, but they've also done stuff like, hey, this is a huge pain in the butt to fix. Here's the new one that doesn't rip so easily anyways. I've had that happen with the company. So you just got to love a company that stands behind their stuff. It's almost unheard of these days, especially because we just expect things to fall apart. And it's like, yeah, clothes fall apart sometimes really quickly. Why is this surprising for you? I'm all about repairing or having things replaced that just don't work out. I mean, the margin on socks is high enough that they can afford to send you another pair. And then that's all you buy for the rest of your life. That's a really cheap way to earn customer loyalty. All right, next up.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, I recently took a three week trip to Portugal, Spain and Greece, in part inspired by your travel stories and Gabe's nomading adventures. I'm a writer editor for startups and VC firms that publish books and articles. And I wanted some Euro time to disconnect from the grind and reconnect with my creativity. Also, you know, have a fling. If that happened to work out, it's been a while.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  Hell, yes, sis. Get that Euro strange. Get that hostile D.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  She ghost writes strategy books for VC firms. Do you think she's pulling a Gaben staying at the youth hostel? I'm not sure.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  I mean, it's just kind of fun to imagine her locking eyes with some shirtless Dutch guy over those terrible hostel breakfast spreads and then

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  Ah, they're so bad.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  jumping under the top bunk with him while a Japanese girl pulls the curtain and pretends not to hear anything. I don't know. I'm rooting for you. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  That felt oddly specific. This is a memory?

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. One of my last youth hostel days, there was a girl from Switzerland, a girl from Sweden. And I remember, not that we didn't get along, but they snored and like, I had a problem in the dorm and they just did nothing to help. And then on the last day when I was leaving, it was more like 11 a.m. and I'm leaving. Okay. And there was a Japanese girl and she was just getting absolutely railed by this black dude from like New York or something in the room with everyone, with the lights on and the sun shining.

• 1:08:39Speaker 03

  Bunk beds.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:40Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  And I was just packing my stuff up and you could just hear this girl just getting destroyed. And they, the girls, the girls from Sweden and Switzerland gave me this look like, you're not just gonna leave us with this, are you? And I remember being like, bye.

• 1:08:54Speaker 03

  Why is that on you? That's not on you.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. First of all, what am I gonna do? Hey, you two, knock it off. That's disgusting. Uh, I'm not jealous at all. No, it was just like, whatever, not my problem. And, cause previously I had had a bunk fall on me and they just kind of looked at me like, oh, that sucks. Are you trapped under a bunk that fell on you? And this dude from Peru helped lift it off me.

• 1:09:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  And I was like, thank you.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  The South Americans to look out for you. And now these European girls want you to, what, save them from the auditory assault from these two people going at it like rabbits? Well, I don't understand this logic.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  And I was just kind of like, you enjoy the show, folks. I'm out. And then that was probably my last night.

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  These two European girls could just leave the room, right? Like, why do they have to be there?

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  They probably just wanted to get their cameras ready or whatever for their day out on the town. But I don't know. The whole youth hostel thing, it's, uh, there are some adventures going on in those places and that's what makes it fun. Some people, it's a classy adventure, other times, not so much.

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  It's a nightmare. Yeah. You get the full range.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 03

  In a big way, the trip was amazing. It's summer in Europe. How could it not be? I sat in cafes in red, drank lots of wine, swam in the sea, ate stupidly good food, met a bunch of cool girls from different countries I might actually stay connected with, and remembered that life is much, much bigger than my Bay Area bubble. And yes, I did meet a guy from Estonia and we had a brief thing. Not life-changing, but fun. It reminded me that I've still got it and that life can surprise you.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sounds like a very successful trip. Nicely done.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  Nice job predicting the story and where it was heading, but he was Estonian, not Dutch. You were off by, what, one time zone, I think?

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Not bad.

• 1:10:34Speaker 03

  But it wasn't all rainbows and prosecco. There were days where I didn't know what to do with myself or where to go, which was frustrating. There were long stretches where I felt extremely lonely, kind of loneliness I've never felt before, which kind of freaked me out. And on the plane home, I was so happy I had gone and genuinely had a great time. But I was also a little unclear about what, if anything, I had accomplished. Was this trip just a distraction from my life? Was it a false paradise? Were the people I met actually my friends? I don't want to shit on this dope vacation I had, but it left me with some big questions. But what I really want to ask you guys is, have you ever experienced this kind of loneliness while traveling? What do you do about it? How do you get out

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  of it? Or how do you cope with it? What does it mean? What should I do with it? Or is that loneliness normal for a solo traveler and that's why we always have to come back home? Signed, a gal laid low by this travel solo, both by the ebbs and flows and a casual bow, but now caught between this afterglow, which might be faux, and this feeling of being hollow, which complicated the tableau.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Wow. Great questions. One of my favorite topics, Gabes too, I'm sure. So first of all, love that you went on this trip. I love that you did it solo and did it quite successfully from the sound of it. Not many people can or want to do that. I think it's awesome. So well done there, my friend. Second, I love that you had so many different kinds of experiences on this trip. Friends, solo time, a little fling, touristy stuff, nature time, introspective time. Sounds like you hit all the notes and filled the proverbial cup. So yeah, of course I've experienced this kind of loneliness. Of course.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Yes, totally. A lot. Quite a bit, my friend.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  It's part and parcel of solo travel, really.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  It is solo travel. It's a huge part of it.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Even when you're traveling in a group, you can be lonely sometimes. The loneliness is sort of part of the experience of travel, I think.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. To be uprooted, to be disoriented without your familiar comforts and your distractions. Yeah, of course you're gonna be lonely.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  So she's asking, how do you get out of it? What do I do with it? Which is an interesting question.

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is. It's kind of a beautiful question. I mean, she's already grappling with something that I think is so important and I love that about her. First of all, I just want to tell you, in the first few months of my nomading period, when I was in Portu in Berlin especially, I can't remember how much I talked about it on the show back then. I might not have wanted to talk about it because frankly, I was pretty embarrassed about it. But I came face to face with this exact feeling that she had on this trip, which is more like an absence of a feeling sometimes, and that can be alarming. It's just like, it's loneliness, but it's more than loneliness. It's kind of like the void, you know? It's like, what the hell do I do with myself? What am I doing here? What am I supposed to do today? It's intense.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  The eternal question. My worst nightmare. That's why I don't want to go on this stupid meditation retreat thing that you're doing next week.

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  Me either, dude. Oh, man. I'm legitimately anxious about that. Oof. Okay.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  That's, sounds like a next week problem.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  That's a next week problem, man. That's a problem for future Gabriel and I don't envy that guy.

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  That's right. And you know what? The future doesn't exist. We only have the now. So it's really not a problem at all. Meditation mastered. But so I had these long stretches, sometimes parts of a day, sometimes many days, kind of weeks on and off of just being like, okay, I have to prep the show. I have to go to yoga. I can read a book. I can go see a friend once in a while. But aside from that, I truly don't know what to do. I'm like, I've never felt this lonely before. Weird.

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  I can relate. I think when you travel, you realize you've been robbed of your acquaintances, those, these little touch points, those places that you didn't even realize mattered. Not just the people who are important to you, but the barista at your cafe, the security guard at your office, the traffic signs that are in your native language, being able to read a menu.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  Totally. Your couch, your commute, your rhythm, all of it.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  All those things. Even if you don't think about them, they ground you and they prop you up. So it can be really jarring when you travel and you just don't have them anymore.

• 1:14:28Speaker 03

  That was another funny thing. My responsibilities and my day-to-day activities had not radically changed, but my context and my options had. And I was completely displaced, just like our friend was. And because I didn't have, you know, these easy ways out of loneliness, like driving 15 minutes to visit my mom, for example, or grabbing dinner with my sister, you know, oh, it's 8:30. I can go hit a 9:00 p.m. class in my studio, which is five minutes away. You know, it felt a lot more acute. So I think it's important to recognize, and this might actually freak you out a little bit more, but I think it might ultimately be somewhat comforting. This loneliness you felt on this trip, it exists back home too. It's just being covered up or mediated by your life. And that's not entirely in a bad way. It can be in a beautiful way.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  And it's distracting you from this baseline terror that exists all the way in the background.

• 1:15:18Speaker 03

  Yes. Which is kind of the condition of our species, right? The human condition. This has always been the issue for us, if you want to call it an issue, just like, fuck, I'm here and I'm not on a deadline for this venture capitalist who wants to put out an article about burn rates or whatever. So now what?

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like that feeling of being stuck, but the stuckness is just you in the world and now what? And that feeling can be pretty scary sometimes, even for a seasoned traveler or somebody who thinks maybe they got everything figured out.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  I think what our friend confronted was more than just loneliness. It was a kind of terror and a confrontation with meaninglessness. Like, oh God, who am I and what am I supposed to be doing? And what is the point of all this? You know?

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think she called that frustrating, which is interesting. I can also relate to that. It's just sort of a very American question, isn't it?

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  It is. Western in general. But yeah, we in America, especially type A folks, I'm guessing she's one of them, given her work and where she lives, we probably struggle to just enjoy a trip a lot more without trying to suss out what it means. I have the same problem.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Maybe that's the one thing this feeling was showing her, that she could just have a vacation and it didn't need to be about accomplishing anything or other than learning how to just enjoy it. And I'm not trying to sound condescending. I'm the same way. What did I get done on my vacation? Yeah, I relaxed a little bit, but what did I get done? Oh, not much. It's like, no, no, no. That's why it's a vacation, dipshit.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  If nothing else, it revealed how she makes meaning out of experiences of all kinds and how she responds to loneliness and confusion, which is really great information for her.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  So this was one of the things I was seeking in my travels, although I didn't quite know what I was getting into, but this encounter with loneliness, you know, like not loneliness for its own sake. You know, that's where the loneliness can become like masochistic and mostly pointless, which is a different problem.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Different problem. Yeah. That's when it's time to book a Ryanair flight.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  That's right. Flexi plus your ass to Dublin and get thee to a, what do they do up there? 24 hour James Joyce reading at a pub made of stone from the Celtic era, whatever. I don't know. I've never been there.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  I've never been. I love that you think the solution to loneliness is to listen to an all-night reading of James Joyce's Ulysses.

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  I mean, it would divert me for a few hours, for sure. It's actually, that sounds pretty fun. Talk about a dude who is lonely. Uh, but no, I mean, not loneliness for loneliness's sake, but loneliness as solitude, as a new experience of oneself and hopefully a portal to new experiences. Which by the way, I think it was for you as well. You were lonely, but then you made friends. You were lonely, but then you met a guy. You were lonely, but you also got this lovely solitude in the ocean when you went for a swim. But so, for what it's worth, I think there A couple of ways to think about loneliness while traveling. One is whether it's actually meaningful or not, whether there's something useful to be done with loneliness or not. It's the price of admission for certain experiences.

• 1:17:58Speaker 02

  For sure. You have to be willing to be lonely in order to get to the moments where you don't feel lonely.

• 1:18:03Speaker 03

  Yes, where you meet the fun friends, where you do all these things we just talked about, yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Well, if you work too hard to not be lonely, you might miss the real trip.

• 1:18:10Speaker 03

  You might. And so, yeah, part of your job as a traveler is to just learn to bear that loneliness. The other way to think about loneliness, though, is as an opportunity, because this encounter with loneliness is not for the faint of heart. Most of us would do anything to avoid it and the confusion that comes with it. And this is, I gather, one of the points of meditation, which I guess is why I'm doing this silent retreat next week, God help me. But here's the good news, I hope.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, cure this girl from San Francisco with a MacBook Pros existential void. No pressure.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  In that encounter with loneliness, I find that you have two options. One option is to come back to something important, but with a new appreciation, right? Like your career, your friends, your family, your apartment. Wonderful, nothing inherently wrong with that, especially if you're genuinely happy with your life. The other option is to sit with this sense of being lonely, of being confused, lost, in a sense, useless sometimes, going out of yourself as you know it, and then see in that loneliness what comes.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  Like what she wants to do or what she cares about?

• 1:19:13Speaker 03

  What she thinks about, what kinds of experiences she finds herself craving in those moments.

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  A romp in the sack with an Estonian stud.

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  Perhaps, why not?

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Speaker 03

  Maybe that contact and that connection was all the more meaningful in her loneliness. But it could also be a new openness to talk to people or to continue being alone that day and get friendlier with her thoughts and feelings and her boredom and find out what in that loneliness and boredom that are so distressing wants to make itself known. It might feel like nothing for long stretches, but it's never just nothing. And maybe you're just staring at the Mediterranean for a while and now you're a little drunk. So here we are.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be my choice, for sure.

• 1:19:49Speaker 03

  Or like, you know, you said you spend time reading in cafes. Maybe in this loneliness, you decide to read a book, but maybe with a different intention, you know, not so much to pass the time and distract yourself, but to really engage with what you're reading, to follow a great author and sit in the questions or experiences they're writing about and enter into a relationship with that. And then the physical place you're in, like you're in Greece, you're in Spain or whatever, that just becomes, for that time, a new and stimulating backdrop to this fun project, to that relationship.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  But isn't that covering up the loneliness again? Isn't it all just kind of coping?

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  I suppose in a way it is, and I don't think that's inherently bad. I guess what I'm getting at is in this loneliness, you have the opportunity, right? And it is an opportunity, it's a choice, to decide how you want to spend your loneliness. And you can connect to the hotel wifi and watch a new girl until you get tired, or you can watch something or read something with a question in mind or with real engagement or call a friend back home and catch up on the trip or go out and make a new one or just walk the streets and contemplate. Or maybe you do stay in and you do watch New Girl because it is funny and it is comforting, but you really watch it, you laugh and you enjoy the laughter, but not just because it was the path of least resistance or an easy distraction slash numbing strategy, but because it was how you chose to spend your evening, and that's great.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a nice distinction. I guess the difference between distracting yourself or coping with a feeling and doing something deliberate with it is it's just to get the intention.

• 1:21:13Speaker 03

  I think it's remarkable that this vacation you took for fun put you in touch with this other existential and sometimes difficult experience. But the vacation didn't do that to you, Greece didn't do that to you, you did that to you, which is amazing. On some level, you knew this was the experience you needed to have, which I find is always the case anyway. And you got to have it with all of these other notes in there, like Jordan said, the friends, the guy, the food. This, by the way, is what Erin Margolis and I call the full tombola.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Okay, what's the full tombola? What tombola?

• 1:21:42Speaker 03

  Tombola, it's so weird. This is a my dad wrote a porno reference. There's some insane plot point about a tombola, which I think that's like a raffle. I think that's the British word for raffle. But now it's our word for the full catastrophe, which is kind of like a pop psychology concept now, just the total unfiltered reality of life, like all the joys, all the terrible moments, everything in between. But for some reason, we just swapped the word tombola, and now that's what we call it, the full tombola.

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:22:10Speaker 03

  You got it all on this trip, girl.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  The whole magilla.

• 1:22:13Speaker 03

  The whole magilla, that's right. If we were two Yiddish grandmothers, that's the word we would use. And so, great, this trip delivered, man. But like you said, sometimes the friends and the wine and the laughs fade, although how much that happens, I guess, is up to you. But this loneliness or the question posed to you by this loneliness, which is yours alone to answer, that's what's going to stick with you now that you're home, I suspect. So I realize this is a little bit abstract and it's a bit of a non-answer, but it's the only answer I feel I can offer, which is stick with that question, keep it alive, listen to it and follow it and see where it leads you.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  I'm thinking season five of New Girl.

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  Season five of New Girl, that's the answer. The whole series, really, start to finish over and over again, so you never have to feel anything again in your entire life.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  Maybe, or something else, or the same as she was before, you know, the same work, the same apartment, the same friends, but with more awareness, more gratitude, she gets to decide. It's super fun.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  I really relate to her other questions. Were these friendships even real? Did the guy even matter? I used to ask myself those same questions. The answer a lot of the time ended up being, not really. But sometimes the answer was, actually, yeah, totally. And now these are real homies. Travel friendships are not fake because they're temporary. Relationships, they can have intensity or concentration in short duration. Permanence is not the test of a real relationship or consistency or whatever. I mean, I think about like my brother, my host brother from when I was an exchange student, Florian. I mean, we lived together in the 90s. He was 15, I think I was 17. We didn't get along at first, then we got along and we became, you know, more than just like friends because we were basically brothers. And then we just stayed in touch for almost 30 years. I mean, next year or something like that, it's going to be 30 years, crazy.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  I mean, I went to his wedding a couple of years ago.

• 1:23:54Speaker 03

  Didn't he make a speech at your wedding as well?

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  He probably did. Yeah, he probably did make a speech at my wedding, which is pretty cool.

• 1:23:59Speaker 03

  I mean, that's a perfect example. It's amazing. You feed the friendship and the friendship flourishes and that's what makes it significant. So, yeah, I guess here we're back to what is your intention, right?

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  Yes, but I find these things have a logic of their own. If you feel moved to stay connected to the gals you met on your trip, share voice notes, plan more experiences, great. If you don't, maybe that's a sign they weren't all that meaningful, but both are fine. Doesn't mean they weren't an important part of your trip.

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  I mean, it's possible these gals she met getting schwasted at the bar in Corfu or whatever were meaningful because they're actually friends. Or maybe they were only meaningful insofar as they raised this interesting question, how do I decide who matters to me? You know, what in a stranger moves me to want to stay close? What inspires me about somebody? What makes me laugh, et cetera, et cetera? And how do I show up in those relationships that allows them to grow?

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  So there too, she can follow that question and just see where it leads.

• 1:24:49Speaker 03

  That Estonian guy too. I mean, you might never see or talk to him again, but he gave you a good time, he reminded you that he's still got it. Is he your husband? Probably not. Is he significant? Is he part of your story now? I would say, yeah, definitely. And I don't know, different people have different lenses on this. I think even these seemingly casual ties you develop when you travel are meaningful. And it's kind of hard to overstate how profound that can be if you engage with those people in the right way and those memories in the right way. This is just what I love about travel. It's so hard to explain. It's stimulating and scary and often very confusing. The confusion I now see is sometimes the best part, despite what I said on our end of year episode when I was like in the midst of grappling with the meaninglessness of

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  a lot of my travels because I was so, like you, obsessed with trying to figure out what it all meant, which I've changed a little bit, my view on that. But yeah, because confusion for me is now possibility and it's often the necessary prelude to the best kind of clarity.

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  Damn, facts. So I'm not going to say I'm sorry you were lonely because I'm with Gabe. I think you touched something super important on the trip. And it wasn't just that Estonian guy's picage.

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, she took his Kia picage for a spin, if you know what I mean.

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  That's right. Sorry, that was low hanging fruit.

• 1:26:01Speaker 03

  That was terrible. So was the Estonian guy's picage, but okay.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  That's right, exactly. No need to push the loneliness away is what we're saying. No, no need to do anything with it.

• 1:26:10Speaker 03

  Other than listen.

• 1:26:11Speaker 02

  Yes, other than listen and make sure your credit card on Hulu is up to date. And now you get to come back home and be distracted, but what's the quality of your distraction? I'm going to take that into my weekend too, celebrating the full tombola.

• 1:26:23Speaker 03

  The full tombolissimo, nailed it.

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  That's right. What a weird bit. I want in on it. That's going to come in handy. Don't forget to check out Jameson Firestone on the craziness of Russia in the early aughts and Rob Reid on synthetic biology and our Skeptical Sunday on Family Court, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course I talked about a little earlier. It's free, it's not schmoozy, it's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, still not calling it X, by the way. Or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show was created in association with Podcast One.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tadisidlouskas and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  What if everything modern society teaches us about trust, status and connection is backward? Psychologist Guillaume de Lude ventured into some of the world's most remote communities with no shared language, no GPS and no guarantee he'd be welcomed or even make it home.

• 1:27:52Speaker 06

  I've always been attracted by nature, animals, expeditions, tribes. I'm going to try to go around the world with no money, just rely on communication to survive. Talk to people, get accepted by people, go live with them and see if I can survive like this. So that's how it started. Safety wise, you need to know when people have problems with you and you need to keep your distance and you need to show them that they will lead. If you're trying to do too much, even with good intention, you don't have no idea what they can do. There are no rules here. We're absolutely alone. There is nobody that knows exactly where we are. So you need to always show that you understand their rules and you play by their rules and

• 1:28:37Speaker 06

  you're always listening to them. If they feel that you're always listening and responding in a way that they want, the anxiety will lower, vulnerability in a relationship will increase. I do as much research as possible. I'm addicted to discovery, I think. I'm addicted to new cultures, new experience and the whole psychology around a culture. I want reality. I want proof. I want to know, how do you live traditionally? Where we come from as human beings? And I think that's always been my quest. Who are we? Who am I? Where do we come from? What's the future? If we know where we come from, can we make a better future? I was hooked, so the rest, it's history.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  Discover what uncontacted tribes revealed about earning trust, creating belonging and reclaiming the human connection we may have lost on episode 1318 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.