1380: Is Victim at Fault for Scopolamine Assault? | Feedback Friday

A drink with a stranger in Colombia cost you your savings, your safety, and your peace. As the victim, are you entirely blameless? It's Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1380 https://jordanharbinger.com/1380 On This Week's Feedback Friday:  If you want to take a high-speed delivery drone past the dystopian cityscape of Jordan's latest China stories, you can skip ahead to around 20 minutes and 50 seconds! You'd clawed your way back — 115 pounds gone, the Pacific Crest Trail behind you — when a Colombia trip meant to start a new chapter became a scopolamine nightmare: drugged, assaulted, and drained of tens of thousands while the banks shrugged that biometrics don't lie. Where do you even begin to rebuild? The affair that blew up your marriage never ended — you've quietly kept seeing her through the ugly divorce. Now she's done hiding and wants to meet your kids and family, who only know her as the scandal, and your ex is poised to weaponize it. How do you drag the secret into daylight without torching everything? Recommendation of the Week: Slice Mini Ceramic Box Cutter http://amazon.com/dp/B0DHWGSQWS/?tag=jordanharbing-20 — a purse-sized blade with a ceramic edge that feels dull to the touch yet slices clean through cardboard and plastic. It's kid-safe, TSA-friendly, and, per Jen, weirdly indispensable for life's most random little jobs. You've watched a colleague you care about come apart at the seams — a hidden drinking problem you never saw coming, now impossible to unsee. You feel responsible for keeping her afloat, dreading the day something breaks. But is rescuing her really your job, or just the thing that quiets your own fear? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: The Perfect Jean: 15% off first order: theperfectjean.nyc, code JORDAN15 https://theperfectjean.nyc/Hims Weightloss: Get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you: hims.com/harbinger https://www.hims.com/harbingerHomeServe: Find the plan that's right for you: homeserve.com https://www.homeserve.com/Perplexity Computer: Try for free: pplx.ai/jordan https://pplx.ai/jordanSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 00

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, one half of your saving grace, even though he and I are never in the same place, Gabriel Mizrahi.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  There is no distance that can stop us from Lydia-ing our show, fam. None at all.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. Halfway decent Wi-Fi and your willingness to chug your scalding English breakfast tea so you can record at midnight local time. That's all we need to make this work.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  That's it. It's very simple. And also, there's nothing I would rather be doing than sitting on the floor of this mediocre hotel in a champlé, talking about our listeners' lives. Truly nothing.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you are on the floor. Hotel floors are pretty gross, so that shows you how far we're willing to go.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Does it help that I'm sitting on two pillows?

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The throw pillows that never get washed, that they put back on your bed?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  No, the nice ones that they wash and replace. Yeah.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  That makes me feel a little bit better. But really, you'd rather be here, not even at Hot Yoga, which you famously love in the evenings?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  I just got back. Did a double, by the way. Sculpt followed by flow, so I'm good.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Oof. Glad you got your fix.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  I'm ready to sweat again, but like, in a different way, you know?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Truly, truly. Because on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: undercover agents, astronauts, Emmy-nominated comedians. This week, we had Joseph Moore, author of How to Get Rich in American History: 300 Years of Financial Advice That Worked and Didn't. We talked about the history of American financial advice, how conventional wisdom around saving, investing, and building wealth has all changed over time, and which strategies have actually worked and which haven't. Actually, it was one thing about that episode that struck me was, it used to be considered really, really bad in terms, like, a terrible idea to save money. It was like, the dumbest thing you

• 2:46Speaker 01

  could do with money was save it. Kind of funny how all these things change. There's a lot like that in that episode. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on female genital mutilation. Controversial topic, complicated topic, stomach churning topic, and an important topic, of course, as well. On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and tell absurd stories from our travels from opposite ends of the globe.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Hi, listeners. It's Jace here. If you want to take a high-speed delivery drone across the dystopian cityscape of Jordan's latest China stories, you can jump to timestamp 20 minutes and 50 seconds. Enjoy the show.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  So, Jordan, you are back in China. Very soon after your last trip, I would add.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Yes, I am. It's been six and a half weeks or seven weeks since the last time, since I got back from China before, but Jen and I decided to come to Hong Kong and Shenzhen, just the two of us. Actually, it was with my cousin as well, who just passed the bar exam. Oh, I assume passed the bar exam. Took the bar exam. It's been super interesting. I'm seeing a lot of stuff I haven't seen before, getting into the usual ridiculous little shenanigans.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I love it. Tell me, what's going on? What bizarre scraps of mentation have you ferreted away in your notes app for us?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Okay, so, this is not necessarily China-specific, but this is so funny. So, I was at the Lego store, because the girls went shopping.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  For the kids.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for myself, really. I love Legos. People know this.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  What do you mean, for yourself?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Like, buying Legos for myself?

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Wait, you buy Legos for yourself?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I'll do a Lego set by myself. Yeah, I usually have my son help me.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I thought you do it with Jaden. I thought there was like, a father-son thing.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Usually, yes. But I will definitely buy something that's 18-plus, like, which sounds porny, but is not. Adult Legos.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  You buy those pornographic Legos?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  I buy the porn Legos, yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  They only have them in China?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  I didn't know this. This is such a huge-

• 4:31Speaker 01

  There's adult Legos, yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I believe you that they're adult Legos. I did not know that you partake. This is a new corner of your personality to me.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  I think there's lame ones that are like, architectural designs. Those are for adults where it's like, hey, it's the Louvre. I don't buy that. I still get the ones that are kind of for kids, they're just like, 16-plus, or they're just more complicated, like a Transformer or something like that. But anyway, I go there and I see that they have, like, a full-on Batman collection. And I'm like, oh, I haven't seen these. So, I go up and there's this huge-ass Arkham Asylum. I'm not a Batman fan, really, necessarily, or anything, but Batman Legos looked really cool. There's a little Lego Joker and like, his, all his henchmen and Lego, what's her name, Harley Quinn, and Lego Batman. I'm like, this looks like fun. So, I pick it up, and I'm looking at it, and I'm looking at the price, and I'm like, do I want to haul this thing home? Not really. I wonder if I can, you know, order it online, whatever. And as I'm looking at it, this tough French guy walks up to the

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Batman shelf and he goes, "Patrice," to his friend, he goes, "C'est la merde. C'est la grosse merde." Like, really serious, okay? And I'm like, oh, what's wrong? Because I don't speak French, but I know that that means it's a big crap or a big sheet. And Patrick's like, "What's up, man?" I guess, in French. And he's like, "De, de, de, de, de, de, de, Batman." And I'm like, I wonder what he said. And I look over at them, and they're both looking at me. They're both looking at me. And I realize, he wanted the last Arkham Asylum, most likely, and I just happened to get to the shelf before him and pick it up. And I look at him, and he looks at me, and I go, "Do you want this?" And he goes, "It's the last one." And I'm like, "You can have it. That makes my decision

• 6:06Speaker 01

  easier. I'll just buy it online, because I don't want to carry it home." And he's like, "Oui." And he gra, this guy has like, he's like, huge and has long hair, and he's like, missing a tooth and has a 5:00 shadow. And the way this man lit up, I knew that this was not a gift for a kid or anything. These were 1,000% for him. And he had probably come to the mall specifically to get that set, and this is the last one, and he had just lost his mind when I got the last one. He was so sad. So, this guy lit up so bright, I thought he was gonna hug me.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  He lit up like the Eiffel Tower when you gave him the last one.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  It was so cute, man. And I can relate, right? Because, again, I love Legos. I will build them on my own, and then after that, I'll get a big Arctic Explorer ship and build that thing on my own while I listen to an audiobook. It's like doing, I would imagine this is how older people feel, or, I shouldn't say older, but other people feel when they do jigsaw puzzles alone, and they're just reading or drinking coffee and hanging out or watching something, like a movie. This is probably how they feel. I'm putting this thing together, and then I'm done with it. So, it's just like, building a model, which I don't like doing, ironically. So, yeah, it was so funny. This guy, I don't even, I don't think he flew from France to get it, probably lived in China, but he was so stoked about this. I know that this sounds a little bit like something a serial killer might do.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  It was. I didn't want to be the one to say it, but then when you said, "I do it while I listen to an audiobook," that helped a little bit.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  That helps, right? Because a serial killer would have classical music playing in the background. And there'd be like, somebody taped to a dental chair, just oozing blood. And he like, puts a piece in, and then he gets a drill out or something, and he's like, "Okay, I'm ready for you."

• 7:45Speaker 02

  But even the serial killer would need there to be some kind of other entertainment in the vicinity-

• 7:51Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  -to justify how creepy it is to be playing with.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Wow, this is great. I knew that you listened to audiobooks when you played GTA sometimes, but I didn't know that you had graduated to Batman.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  I do video games, Legos, et cetera, for sure. The other thing that I did that I think is, this is gonna be a little gross, I suppose. So, I needed a pedicure, because I hadn't cut my toenails in a while. And my toenails are disgusting. Like, five, six years ago, however long it's been, I took this medication to get rid of, like, essentially toenail, like, jungle rot on my feet, which is gross. Who knows where I got that? Egypt or something, years ago. And the medication made it go, like, you take it for eight months, you can't drink it, it's bad for your liver, it makes it go away, but it takes forever, like, a year, and then your toenails grow out again. Well, it comes back occasionally. It came back on like, four of my toes, really gross. So, I go to get a pedicure, and they're like, "Hey, these are badly infected with something gross. Do you want us to get rid of it?" And I'm like, "How do you do that?" And he's like, "We basically debride," which

• 8:47Speaker 01

  means grind down the nail and get rid of it. And I was like, "That's possible?" And they're like, "Yeah." It's like, 25 bucks a nail or something.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  At the Manny Petty place?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm like, that's kind of a thing a doctor would do, but it's China, and I don't think, they kind of don't have that distinction, really. And I was like, "Okay, is it gonna hurt?" They're like, "Absolutely not." I'm like, "Cool." So, they get out all of these massive razor blades.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  And I'm like, "Oh, this looks really bad." And they don't use nail clippers at all on my nails. Like, not just to trim them, nothing. They use razor blades and they cut sideways. That's how sharp these blades are. They cut through my toenails like butter, like a hot knife through butter. They're just so sharp. And then the maestro comes out. I've got this kid working on my nails. The maestro comes out, he's got, there's an apprentice sat on his left. I sent you this photo. I put it in the company Slack.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  And they're like, using all these grinder dremels and stuff like that. They're scraping the nails down. I mean, it was so crazy sharp. The blade was huge. One slip, this thing goes straight to the bone, for sure. And he's like, digging into the top of my nail. But again, totally painless, which was shocking, because I'm like, isn't this, aren't you a half of a millimeter away from excruciating pain? And he never quite went over the line. It was amazing. And they even used this microscope camera thing to show me my foot before and after. It was so gross. I was gagging, right? Because it's disgusting. But again, essentially, painless. And the guy was like, "Rest assured, no problem. I've been doing this for seven years." And the maestro guy, "I've been doing it for like, 20 years." The funny and grossest part about this was not just what they did with my feet, but they're not using gloves, Gabriel.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Okay. How did we feel about that?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I was not thrilled. One of the guys started to use a glove, one glove on one hand, and the other guys, like, they slip, and I don't want to slip. And I was like, "I appreciate that." Mr. Giant Razor Blade in one hand, and my toe in the other.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Seems more important.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  The guy with the dremel's like, "Oh, fine, I'll use a glove." And then, he's wearing a mask, which is great, because there's like, foot dremel smoke coming off of my feet, which is not, you know, just keratin from my nail, but disgusting stuff. And then, oh, this is so gross. I can't believe I'm telling this on the show, but- He's dremeling my toe, nail, and a chunk flies off of the nail and lands in his eye.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  What?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  What are you talking about?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  It lands in his eye and he goes, oh, and then he like says something in Chinese and then another, he's like trying to rub it and it's not coming out because it's like this, and it's this big chunk of like infected toenail that's in his eye, okay?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Oh my god, dude.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  And he's rubbing it and rubbing it. And I'm like, oh my god. And I'm laughing, but I'm also like, are you okay? Are you okay? And he's like, I got a chunk of it in my eye, whatever. And then this other pedicure lady comes over, she grabs the top eyelid and the bottom eyelid and holds them wide open and she goes,

• 11:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  And blows really hard into his eye. And he's like, oh yeah, I got it. Thank you. Thank you. Not through a mask or anything, just blows her own breath into his eye to get that out.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is the most China story I've ever heard.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  The most China, yes.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  So much for PPE. He put on a mask, no glasses, no gloves, and then this happened. And he's also acting in such a way that I can't help but feel that that is not the first time that happened.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just really, really disgusting. And I felt really bad. And they would look at me because I was laughing, like, what a jerk. So I had to be like, are you okay? Are you okay? I can't believe that happened, you know, and they're, they're doing this and doing this. And I'm like, at the end, I was like, I hope this works because it took a long time, but my nails look amazing, of course, because they just removed like all the ugly, icky ones and like dremmled them down to flat, which is incredible. And they were like, oh, it works. Look, I had some on my fingers. Here's the before and after. And I was thinking, of course you had it on your fingers. You're not wearing gloves while you're handling somebody's disgusting as jungle rot fungus feet.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Of course you had it on your hand before.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  This is such a bizarre procedure. My question is, what color did you go with at the end?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I always go with clear lacquer.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Oh, you did put on a coat of clear?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  The whole point is to dremel these down and then you can get access to the underlying part of the nail where all this stuff lives, I guess. So you gotta put this stuff on for like months afterwards.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I mean, it's kind of amazing that they know how to do that. There's a procedure for this in China and you weren't, you weren't able to fix this in the States. So like, if this works, it'll be incredible.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  In the States, they're like, here's a cream, it works 5% of the time. Here's a laser, it works 8% of the time. And it's like $1,000 because it's a United States derma procedure. And then there's a pill you can take and it's hundreds of dollars and it's really bad for your liver and your kidneys. And it takes eight months. And in China, they're like, we scrape it all off, you put this on and you might have to do it again if it comes back. And I was like, ah, why don't we do this here? And the answer is they do. You have to find something called like a medical pedicure. Most places don't do it. And if they do, it probably hurts. And I was just like, I think they just have better skills over there. And people who have this just are more aggressive with it. I basically got like minor surgery at this pedicure spot Yeah. for a hundred bucks.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  The way you went from serial killer in the first story to victim in the second.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Is really delightful. That was a great arc.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  There's so much about, I mean, Shenzhen, you're living in the future because you can get McDonald's delivered by drone or bubble tea delivered by drone to a park using an app.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  I've seen that on YouTube. It's so wild.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  It's real. Everyone's using it. It's not just like, oh, look, I mean, a lot of the people are tourists, but there's, there were local kids that got their McDonald's delivered by drone. So you don't have to leave the park, go to Mickey D's, come back. You just stay in your picnic blanket and hang out by the water or whatever. And then you go to the drone kiosk and you type in your code and you get your McDonald's from the drone. And then the skyscrapers will have like a huge LED panel over the whole thing. So it's a massive 17 story advertisement for makeup or whatever, or like news, I don't know.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Or BYD.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for BYD, electric cars. And so you'll have that on there. And then you're walking on the sidewalk and there's a Chinese DoorDash guy, Meituan guy, just running over small children with no helmet on, going 30 miles an hour down a pedestrian sidewalk because they're living in the future, but also there's just, it's pure chaos. Because it's just like, you're like, wow, look at that skyscraper with the big LED panel. Beep beep, screw pedestrians. We're just gonna run down the sidewalk because there's all the, there's too many cars on the road. And it's like, what a weird juxtaposition. We're just so much chaos. And yet the place is like simultaneously in the future because the culture itself is 50 years behind. So because things have moved so quickly, it's just like slow to evolve people's mindsets.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  You'll be outside a Michelin star restaurant and some guy will be like, oh yeah, it's one of the nicest places in town. And like spits on the ground and then just keeps talking and smoking around young children. You're like, what is happening here?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  The scene you're describing sounds like a glitch in the Matrix or like a time machine gone wrong where the past and the future are folding in on each other. And there's, time is not coherent anymore.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  It's like a cyberpunk video game.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Yes, totally.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Like, future this, drone that, flying everything. Oh, and by the way, roving gangs are taking over the entire cityscape and like you need to be armed at all times. I mean, it's just like, you feel like that.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  But also, didn't you tell me that Shenzhen was like a fishing village?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like whatever 30 years ago was a small fishing village. And then it became kind of the gateway to Hong Kong. So it had like transit hubs and facilities. And then they were like, oh, we can start manufacturing things here. And then they started manufacturing every electronic part there instead of in Hong Kong. And Hong Kong was the port and Shenzhen was the, the factory hub. And now it's got like 20 plus million people and it's a tier one city in China.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  It's crazy. It's absolutely insane. So the growth of that place is just plain nuts. And the people, whenever you ask someone, hey, are you from here? They're like, yes, but from a place kind of outside the city. And when you say that, you're like, oh, how far outside? And it's hours outside and that place might not even have electricity or running water. So the people who are working in a 50 story skyscraper grew up with a well. It's just absolutely insane. That's how far China's come in like one generation. It's really cool. And as many people know, I'm very critical of the CCP. Chinese people are awesome. The Chinese culture has its ups and downs, just like any other place. But I'm just explaining. I don't want people to think I, I stand for China. And a lot of people were like, ooh,

• 17:02Speaker 01

  you went to China. Did you get invited there? No, I didn't. This was not an influencer trip. There's this trend of influencers going and kind of whitewashing everything and being like, this place is great. It's all futuristic. Everything's amazing. I'm not gonna say that about China. I did a tour of where the poor people live in Hong Kong and there are these things called coffin apartments, which are like 15 or five square meter apartments. So think 100 square foot place that a whole family lives in or that two grown men live in. This is a walk-in closet with a small bathroom that the toilet is under the shower and there's a table that's thin enough that you can keep things on it, but not actually

• 17:42Speaker 01

  use the table and a bunk bed. And the bunk beds have cages around them. So you can lock your things on top of your bed when you leave because that's all the actual space you have. And you might not know who you lived with.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. That sounds like some of the hostels I've stayed at.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah. I mean, imagine living in a space like that and it's $250 a month and you, you know, you have to work for half the week to make that amount of money. And it's absolutely nuts that people live like that. And the Chinese government still disappears, people who disagree with it and undesirables and oh gee, why aren't there homeless people? Well, actually they all vanished when, you know, there's a reason for this kind of stuff. So it's not that they're in free housing.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  You'd be the worst influencer for China.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would be a terrible influencer for China. I do think China is an amazing place to go and see, but like, the people who go there and they're like, wow, look at all these LEDs. They're missing the actual things that are happening around them. But China, look, the Chinese government relies on that. They rely on people not speaking Chinese, not being able to read things, not being able to see between, read between the lines or see things that they're not supposed to see. It's kind of like when we went to North Korea. It's not that you can't go anywhere like North Korea where they wouldn't let us go to places. China just assumes, but you're not going to go into an apartment building. We're going to have a security guard out front that says, you know, you don't live here. You can't go to these blocks. But you can still see that stuff and you can still go around and you can bike around those areas. And you know that when you're walking into a building that doesn't have electricity or that's rotting from the outside and it's

• 19:06Speaker 01

  just not in good condition. And there's huge amounts of space that people don't live in, like huge skyscraper blocks where there'll be blocks and blocks and blocks of these things, thousands of apartments. And I remember asking my tour guide, these are huge. You must have hundreds of thousands of people here. And she'll go, oh, nobody lives in this area. And I'm like, what do you mean by nobody? She's like, these are all empty. And I said, are you kidding? There's 35 apartment buildings here, maybe more. Yeah, they're all empty. What? There's a playground here? Yeah, it's not used. And it's like, what the heck is this for? It's just investment.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Are those, those apartments that ran out of money before they could finish building them? Or what happened there?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  There's some of that. They ran out of money before they could finish building them. There's some of that with the real estate bubble in China. But the Chinese people don't necessarily have the same kind of like 401ks, stock market that we do here. The wisdom is to invest in real estate. But the problem is if there's no real estate to buy, then where do you put your money? So developers build and build and they build these properties that are not livable most of the time because they don't need to be. No one's ever going to live there. They live in the center of town. And so you build essentially a suburb or a city. And China likes to say, people have been moving into those. Not really. A lot of the buildings are completely uninhabitable. They're made out of poor construction. They're not finished. They've been exposed to the elements for a long time. There's no pipes.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a lot of that. And you can't just move into that. A concrete shell might last for 10 years, but if you start putting in pipes or cabling or stuff like that, it's going to end up essentially deteriorating and have to be done again. So there's a ton of property that people have bought that they can't actually sell because there's a huge amount of supply. So it's not worth what you paid for it. And they're counting on there being at some point a market for these things. And that's what their entire essentially savings economy is based on. A lot of people think that's just never going to be the case because China's not running out of room. And they're probably also lying about their population as well by like maybe as much as the population of the entire United States and then some. Like they could have under a billion people. No one's ever going

• 21:11Speaker 01

  to tell the truth to the international community and they might not even know themselves. So you just have this massive supply problem. This is a whole different probably episode of the show that, but basically there's a ton of empty space in China that is unused. And you can see that pretty readily if you go to a place that's not the center of town in any major city. So again, I love going to China, but it's like, I love going anywhere. It doesn't mean I love the government of that country. I think there's a ton of stuff wrong with it. I think Chinese people are really cool and interesting. Chinese culture's really cool and interesting. Hong Kong and Shenzhen both are on my list of places I would love to go back to because I thought they were just both awesome. And there's listeners in Shenzhen that I didn't get a chance to meet. And there's listeners in Hong Kong that I didn't get a chance to meet. So I'd love to go and take that opportunity next time as well. All right, we're going to take a quick break to pay for my Lego addiction

• 21:56Speaker 01

  and then we'll dive into the letters. We'll be right back.

• 22:03Speaker 00

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• 22:31Speaker 04

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• 22:46Speaker 01

  If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If the codes aren't working, you can't figure something out, something's not working for you, email us, [email protected]. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Okay, fun ones, doozies, both on the docket today. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  So just a heads up, this first letter deals with some pretty difficult stuff, very dark, adult type stuff. I would say, you know, grownups only for this one.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Kind of like my Legos. All right, earmuffs, fam.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Earmuffs for 20 minutes on your family road trip to the T-Sons or wherever you guys are going. Camping's gonna be more fun if you don't have to explain some of the words in this next segment to your children later today.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Can confirms. Smores is a lot simpler without some of this vocabulary.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, starting in 2021, I was in a very up and down relationship. But from 2022 to 2023, I was crushing it. I'd hit a rock bottom and worked hard on myself. I lost 115 pounds, made tons of friends, started up woodworking and hiked 500 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Wow, huge turnaround. Well done, man. Love that for you.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  But in 2025, I started to struggle a lot with depression. The relationship started falling off fast and became very dysfunctional. We loved each other very much, but just could not stop fighting.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Oof, yeah, sorry to hear that. Ups and downs, man, ups and downs.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Eventually, I took some time off in the city I live in to stay with family for a couple of months. I was very broken. I worked hard to recover and finally felt a sense of calm that had been missing for years. I returned back to my city only to get dumped on Valentine's Day.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Oh, man, sorry to hear that. That's some brutal timing.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  This was already a roller coaster and then he moves back and then this, geez.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, his life is like a well-plotted coming of age novel. The turns keep on coming, geez.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  That's just the prequel to his story, by the way. That's not the real thing.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  I don't mean to dwell on this because who knows, but why dump someone on Valentine's Day? She couldn't have waited 12 hours and gotten it done the next day? Just so you didn't have to go around telling people, yeah, she dumped me on Valentine's Day, bro. It's almost like, do you want to be the villain? It sounds like you want to be the villain at that point.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Part of me wants to say that that's cruel and another part of me wants to say that Valentine's Day is a made up holiday and has no real significance. So like, what's the difference?

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Sure, I hear that. But like, if you're in a relationship, maybe you're doing something for Valentine's Day, I don't know, like dining alone. You're probably, you're probably not hoping to get dumped at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Oh, by the way, the most poorly named restaurant on earth.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  It really is. I mean, I think I was in my early twenties before I could even say those words in a row correctly. I probably could legally drink before I knew how to say Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  For anyone listening from outside the States, I mean, I don't know, maybe they have locations in other countries, but Ruth's Chris, I even have to work hard to say it right now. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is a, what would you call it? An upper middle tier steakhouse chain?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. I've only been one time. It's like if you want to go fancy for dinner, but you don't want to default on your next mortgage payment.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like if Outback Steakhouse won the lottery and put on a, put on a little tuxedo.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Nailed it. Not a bad restaurant, though, from what I remember. It's a solid change. It's a terrible name that makes absolutely no sense.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  I don't actually know if I've been to a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. I'm sure it's nice. It's just Ruth's Chris Steak. Why would you name your establishment those sounds? Do you want people to not be able to say it? I don't understand.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Also, is Chris a type of steak? Or is it just two names that seem like, is Chris belongs to Ruth? I don't know. Maybe that's part of the branding. I look, we're sitting here giving them free advertising. Well done, RCS. Valentine's Day, though, oof, that's rough.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  I love the idea that they were like, we want to name it Chris's Steakhouse. And they're like, yeah, no, no, no, but not Chris, but that's Ruth's Chris.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Not the other Chris, Ruth's Chris. Oh, I like that. Let's do that. Let's go with that.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  We could easily solve this by looking it up, but I like our story much better.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  We're one Google search away from solving this mystery. In 1965, Ruth Furtle bought an existing 60-seat restaurant in New Orleans named Chris Steakhouse from the original owner, Chris Matulich. But like, why not drop Chris? It's not his steakhouse anymore. The purchase contract stated the name Chris Steakhouse could only be used at the original building on Broad Street. And then apparently a kitchen fire destroyed the original restaurant, forcing them to move to a new location. And because she could not use the name Chris Steakhouse anymore because of the new address and the old contract, she added her own first name to the front of the existing sign that was already there, which is why it makes no effing sense. Created the awkward but now famous moniker Ruth's Chris, meaning the Chris Steakhouse

• 27:35Speaker 01

  belonging to Ruth. That's what it means.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  What a mess.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  What a terrible branding case study. That's incredible.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  This has to be taught at business school for like, hey, here's how you screw this up.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  That's what you pay $200,000 to go to HBS for, to learn how to not put possessives in the name of a company you run. That's such a ridiculous story. Ruth's Chris, she could have just named it Ruth's Steakhouse. Why was she so, is she, she had to dominate?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Contractually prohibited.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Oh, she couldn't even say Ruth, she had to use Chris?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  No, she didn't. Probably she wanted to keep the original customer. So she's like, great. So she's like, oh, okay, I'm gonna call it Chris Steakhouse. Then it burned down and she's like, oh, I want to change it to, I gotta move Chris Steakhouse to another location. Oh, you can't do that. The contract says it has to be the original location only. Ah, you can't franchise it. Now I have to call it something else. Let me just plot my name in front of it on the existing sign. I mean, it's such a stupid thing that there had to be a better solution and they were just like, nah. But they probably didn't think it would be a major chain and it would just be local and then everybody would get it. And now it's an international chain and nobody gets it.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  That's ridiculous.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Yep, that was a worthwhile tangent, though, because it's so stupid.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  That was beautiful, yeah. Well, it clearly has not gotten in the way of their success, so what do we know? I'm now in my mid 30s. In March 2026, so about five months ago, I had a trip planned to Columbia with a friend of mine. He invited me to tag along since his girlfriend broke up with him on Christmas last year. And he had already secured a plus one to the wedding that he was a part of. My dude, why do you and all your friends get broken up with on major holidays? That's what I want to know. It would be funny if you were only friends with people who've been broken up with on major holidays. Like, if you haven't, sorry, man, you don't know my struggle. You're not gonna get it.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Right, he meets a cool guy at the gym who invites him to play pickleball and he's like, okay, Dave, you seem nice, but have you ever had your heart stomped on, on a bank holiday? I need to, we need to know right now.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Dave's like, I don't know, I got stood up once on Flag Day.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. Not a federal holiday or a bank holiday. And for that reason, I'm out.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  So he goes on, I speak Spanish and I've always wanted to go to Columbia. Two heartbroken, close friends going to Columbia for three weeks? Sounds like a dream. What could go wrong?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Since this is Feedback Friday, I'm gonna assume everything and I'm gonna assume it's worse than getting dumped on President's Day.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  It started to turn things around by the time the trip came and I really felt like the trip would be a great start to a new chapter. The first two weeks went great. We had never traveled together before and it was mostly pretty smooth. My birthday was a few days before our flight back to the US. It was bittersweet being recently single in a new country on my birthday. It was hard to not wish that I was there with my partner. The night before my birthday, we all went out. Nothing eventful, but it was nice. We then got back to the hotel where I made a very stupid mistake that everyone, including the US government, advises against. I went on a dating app.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Oh, first of all, shit. Second, I just recently learned about this. I'mma hold off, but ooh, stomach starts to hurt, starting to hurt even more.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  After chatting with a guy on Grindr for a little while, I invited him over to my hotel. It was about 3:00 in the morning at this point. He came up to the room and offered me a bump of cocaine. Red flag. I said, sure, but had him do it first. I saw him do a line of it, so I felt like I was in the clear. I did a line and felt fine. Then, three to five minutes later, I felt weird and then very quickly incapacitated, but awake and conscious. I was then raped by this man.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Oh my God, this is awful, Gabe.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Horrible.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  What a nightmare.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Very much so. Apparently a waking one, which is worse. So I feel so bad for him.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Me too. So this is, oh, man, so he's kind of awake for the whole thing and knows what's going on, but can't do anything about it. So you're just in zombie mode. I just feel terrible for this guy. So I know this is not the most important detail at this point, but how did the guy not get incapacitated himself? Did he just like fake do a line of cocaine, I guess, probably?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  It's gotta be some kind of magic trick, right? Does he like squeeze the straw so it gets stuck inside or something like that?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's gotta be something like that. Man, so this person is a legit professional predator, not just a thief. This is so despicable.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  I remember five minutes of this before blacking out for the next 48 hours and then again for 10 hours.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Wow, what?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  The next thing I remember is waking up and being very confused. I saw that my phone, my chargers and my silver necklace. Which I was wearing were missing. My wallet, passport, and some cash were still in the locked safe.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  These people are scum. So Gabe, this sounds like scopolamine. You ever heard of this?

• 32:10Speaker 02

  I have not. This is what you were reading about recently. I've never heard of this.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  So scopolamine, and I'm not sure if I'm saying this correctly, but scopolamine is a pharmaceutical drug. I believe it's also a naturally occurring plant alkaloid. If you take enough of it, it creates confusion, impaired judgment, suggestibility, and memory loss. And somehow it interferes with one of the brain's major systems for attention and memory. So you're awake, you're capable of doing things, but you're very confused and very compliant. And you're unable to properly form memories of what's happening at all.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Terrifying. Okay. So now I'm just reading up on it. It sounds like it's very common in Colombia. The plants are familiar there. So a lot of people use it. Wow.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And criminals know how to use it down there to rob people. Apparently this scam is very common. I've heard of this happening before. It's, I think it's called like Black Widow or something where you meet a girl and the date goes well and you go back to your place or whatever, her place. And then suddenly you're laying on the couch and like all her gang member boyfriends are over there going through your phone or your computer, taking all your stuff, asking you your PIN codes, all this stuff. It's really terrible.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  I went to my friend's hotel room to ask him what happened. He looked shocked and said that this was the second day in a row I had come down in the morning to ask the same question.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Whoa, that's scary.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  At this time, I did not remember being raped or anything that happened after being drugged. My friend told me that my mom had called him several times the morning of my birthday, concerned about me. My find my location had been disabled, calls were going straight to voicemail, et cetera. He knocked on the door and I was not responding. He had a cleaning person open the door for him. I was naked on the bed, breathing. He didn't think anything bad had happened at this point. Later that day, he figured out that something had gone seriously wrong. He said I appeared as though I had just come out of anesthesia. He, along with my ex-girlfriend, helped me call my banks to report the theft. We were reassured by Chase that everything would be locked down. That was nice of her. Kind of makes up for breaking up with you on Valentine's Day.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Jeez.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  She was like, damn, I left this guy crying at Ruth Chris Steakhouse in the panty D. All right, fine. I'll sit through Chase's customer service tree for an hour and a half.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  In all seriousness, that is, that is very nice of her.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  I hate her way less now. Yeah, it's sweet that they're friends, I suppose.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  I don't remember much of the rest of this day and regained my memory again at the airport, eating breakfast approximately 60 hours after being drugged.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Jeez, God, that's gotta be so bad for your brain. This is so scary. I wonder if the guy accidentally slash negligently gave him way too much? Cause it seems like overkill. 60 hours and you don't remember anything?

• 34:44Speaker 02

  I doubt these people are dosing precisely. They're just like, whatever.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let me set up a fat line. Whatever happens, happens. Who cares? It's not my problem. We're thieves anyways. Yeah, that's, I'm so angry at these types of creeps. It's so gross.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  I had planned to surprise my family who were all visiting a certain city back home. By this time, they knew I was coming. When I got back to the States, I quickly got a replacement phone, but I was locked out of my email, my Apple account, and basically everything. It took seven to 10 days to regain control of my accounts.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Wow, that is a long time, huh?

• 35:17Speaker 02

  During all of this, the perpetrator used my Apple Wallet to make $20,000 in credit card charges and had siphoned $10,000 to $12,000 out of my checking and savings accounts at two different banks. While I was incapacitated, they used my face to unlock my phone, disable all security functions, and change Face ID to their face. At this point, all app logins were logged as successful biometric logins, which to banks and Apple is considered an ironclad secure login of the authorized user.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a scary risk of using biometrics, but obviously you have other recourse. Actually, if you turn on attention aware features in your settings, this does become a lot harder. It's a little pro tip. You can also turn on stolen device protection and it makes it harder for people to make changes, even if you're there.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  It took a month or two of gathering evidence, writing incident reports, coordinating with banks, et cetera, to get my credit card charges reversed. A 15-page incident report plus 250 pages of exhibits. But my debit charges were not reversed. I was told by Chase and SoFi that the decision was final and complete. The reason was that Apple Pay responded to the bank's appeals with a checkbox that says, quote, "We have photographic or email evidence that suggests these charges were made by the authorized user," unquote. The evidence mentioned was never given. Chase noted that as such, there was nothing at all I could do. I asked them hypothetically, if I had video evidence showing that my phone was stolen and video of another person using my phone to make these transactions, would that be enough?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  They said no. At this point, I felt completely defeated.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  This is unethical and unscrupulous and possibly illegal. Let's come back to that. It's really messed up that they would take this stance. Imagine, I can prove that it wasn't me. Would that be enough? No, we don't care. Well, let's see what my lawyer thinks because that's not what the law says and that's illegal. I mean, give me a break. Not surprising from Chase, though. I don't care if they have response to the show. They're absolutely garbage institution. All major US banks essentially don't care about their customers, unfortunately.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  A quick rundown of what I've learned from all this. Do not use Face ID or any biometric login. Do not store debit cards in your mobile wallets, for example, Apple Pay. Do not link checking and savings accounts together. And ideally, don't save your login information and passwords in your phone apps.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  I totally hear you and I get why this seems to be the takeaway, but actually, our phones are now mobile bank branches. So you've got your passwords in there, your debit cards, all that stuff. They do need better security features. You gotta keep the blast radius in mind with a device like your phone. I would turn on stolen device protection. I would make sure that you need biometric and attention aware features to make transactions. But it is fair to say, don't put your debit card in your Apple Wallet. If you use it here and there, that's fine, go ahead. But I don't store any debit cards and I try not to use debit cards at all for the reason being that they take your money first and you have to appeal later. Whereas with a credit card, you have to pay them. And if you say, this wasn't me, federal law limits what they're able to actually take from you.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  The other thing is if you're going to go to a somewhat sketchy place or engage in sketchy activity, I'm not judging you doing that. I get it. I too like to live dangerously sometimes, especially when I was younger. But take a burner phone to a place like Colombia. Go on eBay and buy a $100 iPhone 10. Put a couple of cards on there or whatever. Don't link any bank information or anything else on there. And you don't even need your regular phone. Just leave that thing at home or leave it in the safe.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  After losing my job in late 2025, I do not have a reliable source of income and have been struggling to update my resume and portfolios to apply for jobs. I just moved out of my apartment for the last five years and am staying with extended family. I was excited to feel a small sense of stability and home, but my aunt and uncle have been very challenging to be around. They're always fighting, always angry, and have strict ways of living. My nervous system is completely fried and I'm on edge all the time. My family doesn't understand why I'm having so much trouble applying for jobs and moving on. I've been doing TaskRabbit gig work for the past few months to get some income, which has been good for my confidence and obviously my wallet.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  I've been very open about the whole incident, except for the sexual assault. I am still massively traumatized by it and immediately freeze and cry when I think about it. I've been able to open up to my therapist and two friends about it and they've been very supportive.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Look, that's great news. I'm glad you have a therapist. I'm so glad you're surrounded by some good friends and you're talking about all this. Man, I'm sorry it's so painful, but it would be so much harder if you were completely alone in this. So good on you for opening up about it.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  But I struggle with the idea that telling people about my situation will burden them with painful information. I know that if the roles were reversed, I would feel honored to be trusted with that information, but that does little to assuage my reluctance. I don't know what good it would do. And I still struggle with the fact that I knew where I was heading in life before all this versus where I am now. I've tried to learn lessons from this. I know that I made a pretty stupid mistake, but I also know that I didn't deserve what happened to me.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Correct. You absolutely did not.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Ultimately, I just want to feel like my pain and struggle are valid. What other avenues do I have to try to recover the money that was stolen from me? Are there support groups for people that have been sexually assaulted? What would that look like? And what advice do you have for trying to rebuild from nothing while still trying to heal from all of this? The assault and the losses of the last few years. Signed, grasping for what's manageable and trying to be indefatigable after experiencing the unimaginable.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Huh, what a saga.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Tragic, dude. This is just awful.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  The things this guy's been through are just terrible.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  The idea that you could go on a fun vacation with a buddy, to a country, by the way, that I'm very interested in visiting myself and is kind of on my list.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Look, it's not a war zone.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  You don't think something like this is gonna happen. I mean, it's just terrible.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  No, and then you end up drugged, assaulted, raped, robbed in your hotel. This is just.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Yes, no words. And again, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry that someone did this to you. It's gross to believe that people like that are just walking around out there. And I'm sorry that it's left a mark on you. And it's made you feel somewhat ashamed and isolated and lost. It's legitimately traumatizing. And like any major trauma, it's obviously going to have an impact on your psyche, your worldview, your path. It's going to take some time to come to terms with all this and to talk it through. You're already in the process, but it is a process to heal and find your way again. And that process might not always be clear. It probably won't be linear, but it exists. So yeah, your pain and your struggle are valid, man. Of course they are. You were targeted. You were manipulated. And then you were assaulted and robbed. And now, I'm not sure if you're

• 42:08Speaker 01

  saying that you want to know that your pain is valid because it's been hard to talk about. And if you're not talking about this very much, it must be harder to receive that validation. Or you're saying that because you yourself feel partly responsible for what happened that night. So it's like, do I really have the right to feel bad about all this? I'm unclear on that.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  I also wonder if he's in therapy and talking to his friends about this. He said these people have been supportive, right? But I don't know what that looks like, but I would hope that he's getting the validation there.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  And if he's not, I guess I'd have some questions about the therapist and the friends. But I'm assuming slash hoping anyway, that he's getting some good support from them.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  If he is getting that support and validation from them, then I wonder if there's maybe something getting in the way of really taking it in.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, my feeling is, okay, yes, it was definitely risky to invite a stranger from Grindr, the internet, whatever, into your hotel room. Yes, it was very risky to take a substance from somebody you don't know. I appreciate your taking responsibility for these choices. That's honest. That's mature. I think it's important. But that's different from saying, hey, I deserve this.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Or I don't deserve to be in pain now as a result.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  I think he knows that he took some big risks, but being drugged, raped, robbed, financially exploited, left with these tough feelings, nobody deserves that. That's not on you. That's on the criminal and the predator who did this to you.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I totally agree. I wonder how much he's allowing himself to feel a very justifiable anger at the person who did this to him, you know, to locate that responsibility in them alongside the shame and regret and sadness that he feels now.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  But let's hit pause on the emotional piece of this for a moment and quickly talk about some of the things you could do to try to recover some of the money that was stolen from you. So first off, you were actually robbed in a bunch of different ways. And the precise transaction types, these matter quite a bit. Debit card purchases, bank account transfers, credit card charges, P to P payments, like Venmo, PayPal, they all implicate different rules. But there is something called Regulation E here in the US, and I assume there are equivalents in many countries. This is an administrative rule that has the force of law that protects consumers when they use Electronic Fund Transfer Act services like debit cards, ATMs, direct deposits, stuff like that. The Consumer Financial Protection

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Bureau's guidance literally says that electronic transfers performed using account information obtained through fraud or robbery, they can qualify as unauthorized EFTs, electronic funds transfers. It also says, a bank cannot just use a consumer's negligence as the basis for imposing greater liability for unauthorized EFTs. Now, that doesn't just automatically mean Chase, shame on them, or SoFi, shame on them, too, owes you this money. The facts of your case, the transaction types, they're going to determine that. So there's a world where some of the money is sadly gone. But the whole, oh, the biometric authentication succeeded, therefore the transaction was authorized, and it's just not our problem. That argument, that is not something that I would just accept as the last word here,

• 44:59Speaker 01

  especially under these circumstances, where there's a documented crime around all of it. You've built this detailed incident report already, all these exhibits. That was a great move. Good for you. If you wanted to, you could share that package with a litigation attorney, ideally somebody with consumer finance experience, or I would actually find someone who specializes in that, maybe experience with EFTA and Regulation E and unauthorized electronic transfer disputes, and just ask them what your options are. They might say, you got a case. Or, look, we got a standard demand letter that tends to get these banks' attention. We'll fire one of those off for a few hundred bucks. I would also look into filing formal complaints with the CFPB and the appropriate bank regulators if you haven't already. It's a coin toss whether you ever hear back from them, of course. They get

• 45:44Speaker 01

  a ton of complaints from normal people and crazy people alike. But with strong documentation and a good letter, who knows? It might cut through the noise.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Also, you didn't mention whether you filed a report with the local Colombian authorities and/or appropriate US authorities. I'm getting the sense that you didn't, just based on the fact that you only recovered your memory at the airport like four days later, and then you flew home. So probably you're not like going to call the police station in the town you were in all this time later and try to report. But this would be a good question for an attorney, if reporting this to any authorities, having that paper trail, maybe a copy of a police report, if that would strengthen the record. Like, if I were the person in Chase's fraud department reviewing your case, if there is such a person, maybe it's just all AI now and they don't care. I don't know. But if I were that person and I saw a local police report in the documentation, I don't know. I just wonder if I would take

• 46:33Speaker 02

  the person's file more seriously. Or who knows, maybe having a police report escalates a case like this internally at these institutions somehow. That would help.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  I would also ask an attorney if you can request the information that your banks say they used to determine that these transactions were legitimate. Look, I'm not an expert in this world at all, but I think this is a Regulation E thing, too. If you say, oh, they said that Apple said there's evidence of you doing XYZ, great. Show me the evidence. I am fairly certain they have to send that evidence to you. And if that evidence doesn't exist, because it obviously doesn't, they do not have a photo of you withdrawing the money, that you were asleep when they took it. Or maybe the evidence exists, but it's super thin, like it's some lame spreadsheet with a timestamp of withdrawal or something, and there's no photographic or email evidence. You have a much stronger grounds to fight these decisions and hopefully get your money back. And not to put too fine a point on

• 47:25Speaker 01

  this, but the CFPB's guidance on this is that banks' investigations on cases like this, they have to be, one, reasonable, and two, review relevant information. Summary denial based on some sort of simplistic signal, like, oh, well, Apple says there's photographic evidence. That's good enough for us. The end. That is not enough under the guidance to deny a claim of fraud. So I would definitely keep fighting this, both because the money is significant and on principle, screw these banks. They're just making it your problem because they don't think you'll fight them on it.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Totally agree. I imagine most people just give up at this point and eat the loss, but I really hope he doesn't. So let's talk for a moment about what rebuilding and healing might look like. So, big question.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's got to be overwhelming.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  I'm aware that your story begins long before the assault, and there's probably quite a bit to understand and process here. There's the chaotic relationship starting in 2021. There's the rock bottom period, the whole turning your life around part, the depression, the conflict in that big relationship, that period where you described being very broken, your recovery from that, and then of course, later, the assault. I'm not sure we can talk about this latest event without appreciating the chain of events in your life that brought you here.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting, Gabe. He didn't give us a ton of detail about his past, right? Just broad strokes. But I do wonder what traumas, you know, big ones, little ones, what life experiences and patterns, what he brought with him to Columbia.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  How the trauma he experienced there might have intersected with the other ones, how they might have even compounded somehow?

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, compounded and informed one another. Sure.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  And might have even contributed in some way to some of the choices he made that night.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, doing drugs with a stranger. I got to say, though, a lot of people do that. There's trusting, the party, you know, it's a thing.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  For example, yes. Again, I hope it's clear that we don't blame him for being assaulted, but he himself is acknowledging that he's wrestling with some complicated feelings about how this whole evening happened. So I think it's important to consider how one's past, one's wounds, one's drives. I mean, I think he was also kind of making the case that he was feeling quite sad that evening about not being in a relationship, perhaps feeling lonely, how all of that plays a role in the small decisions that can lead to a tragedy like this.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Of course. I also think that question might help him make choices going forward that are hopefully more aligned with the life he wants for himself and the feelings he wants to protect. But we'll get there.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  In any event, I'm obviously overjoyed to hear that you have a therapist and close friends to talk to. It goes without saying that that is a huge gift. And I hope those relationships, especially the one with your therapist, but really anyone you choose to share this with, I hope those people are a big source of comfort and eventually, yes, healing for you. But the thing is, the people in our lives can only nurture us to the extent that we share with them.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I think that's the big obstacle that I hear in his letter, and it's a perfectly understandable obstacle. I get it. This reluctance to fully open up about what happened to him.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  He's not obligated to talk about this with anyone if he doesn't want to. I think it's probably just as important to be judicious about whom he shares this part of his story with as it is to open up and process this stuff, right? Not everybody is the right audience. But clearly, one of the legacies of this evening is a fair amount of shame about what happened to him.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Which I also get.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Of course. But the shame makes you want to hide, which increases the shame. We all know how that goes. So he might need to go through a phase where he unpacks the shame and identifies the sources of it. It really puts words to it. Is he ashamed because he feels regret and embarrassment about putting himself in this situation? Is it because he was physically assaulted? Because he was assaulted by a man or by this man? Because he feels he should have known better? Because he was so vulnerable? Because he's struggling now?

• 50:59Speaker 01

  I'm guessing all the above.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  This isn't just an intellectual exercise of, let me name all the reasons I'm ashamed, so I have a nice, neat list. This is about getting clear on what exactly is producing this feeling of, I am very hurt, and I don't want to go near it with most people. I need to deal with it on my own. And then, like you said at the top, Jordan, maybe getting in touch with other feelings around it, and hopefully over time, converting some of the shame. So to come back to the anger piece, he might Get to a point where he still feels somewhat embarrassed that he helped create the situation by taking some risks. But he might also allow himself to be furious, as he should be, that this person hurt him in this way. I wonder if really getting in touch with that anger, that appropriate rage at this

• 51:41Speaker 02

  guy, might burn up some of the anger that he seems to be turning against himself and experiencing as shame.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Good point. He might also want to ask himself, and his therapist would be very helpful here, why his go-to move is to turn that anger against himself? Like, what is that doing for him?

• 51:57Speaker 02

  It's a really good question. I have a couple of theories, I think.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, okay, let's hear it.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  One is that it might be easier for him to be angrier at himself than at this low life, because he might be going, well, if I'm mad enough at myself for this event, then I work these feelings out closer to home and I can make sure that I never do anything like this again, you know? So I never have to deal with these feelings again.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see that. So it's like a control thing, basically.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  My other theory, which is, I guess, related, is that the appropriate target of his anger here, this criminal, is a bit of a tricky object. It's a stranger in a foreign country, probably using a fake name, who's now in the wind, whom he will never see again, whom he can't even fully remember, you know?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting point. Like, how do you get mad at a blurry face you barely remembered 60 hours later? Good point.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  So it might feel like his anger has nowhere to go. Sending it out to this guy might feel pointless in some way, which it's not, but I would understand if it felt that way. Whereas turning it inward, like, I messed up, I need to make some changes, that might feel more doable and somehow more productive right now.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Obviously, he gets to decide, but I could totally see that playing a role in all this. Again, in addition to whatever life experiences he's had that might have taught him to work through this anger in that way in general.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  So I think feeling this anger and learning how to direct it at the right person, I think that's going to be a crucial phase of his process.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  And that's compatible with appropriately taking responsibility for his part.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Yes, very much so. The more we talk about this, actually, the more I realize that appropriately taking responsibility also depends on appropriately being furious at this person. So he's clear.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely, man. His anger and the target of his anger, that's going to clarify where he was victimized and where he could have made different choices.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  He might have to talk about this for a while, largely with his therapist, and slowly put words to this painful, overwhelming experience and really feel, not just talk, but feel whatever it brings up. Then the question becomes, how can I talk about this and with whom do I talk about it? And I guess my general thought there is, yeah, be thoughtful about the people you share this with, be thoughtful about how much detail you share, of course, but I think the more you hide this experience from the people who care about you, the harder it's going to be to process this stuff and maybe over time, change your relationship with it. I'm just remembering something that our friend Arsene shared with me a while back. I think he said it comes from Peter Levine. The quote is, "Trauma is not what happens to us, but what we hold inside in the absence of an empathetic witness."

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Huh. Let me think about that. Trauma is not what happens to us, but what we hold inside in the absence of an empathetic witness. Okay, I get it, but like, does that mean the event isn't traumatic? Like, the events, because the event still did a number on him, didn't it?

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm sure we could argue both sides of this, but I think what he's getting at is, what we call traumatic after the fact, like after something happens, is not so much the event, or is not merely the event. It's the feelings that we're left with and the feelings that develop after the thing happens, when we don't share them with people who can be in the experience with us.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Okay, I take his point. I don't know if I fully agree with it, but I also don't know if we need to fully agree to appreciate what he's getting at here.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  I'll let our friend decide if that's true for him. I'm not saying that what happened in Columbia was not painful. It was that evening, very difficult. But it is an interesting question. What makes something continue to be painful? If we carry this kind of pain forward into the future, which happens in the present, right? Every moment he's feeling this. It must be at least partly because of how we relate to it now, right? Like, what feelings we carry about it now. And our relationships are a huge part of that relationship and those feelings.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Which is one big reason I'd love for him to look into support groups right now.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Yes, and I'm very glad that he wants to. I love that he's asking.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  So, yes, of course, they exist. I think a support group could be a very powerful place for you right now. I imagine being with other, can I use the word survivors? I know that word gets overused these days, but I think that's what you are. I mean, people who've experienced this kind of assault, I think that could be an excellent resource for you. First of all, you'd be sitting with people who get it. Second, you'd probably be hearing their stories, learning from their experience. If you wanted to, when you're ready, you could share your story in a safe place, and I'm sure that would feel like a lower stakes venue to talk about this, in the sense that your peers would not be old friends or family members who might have their own ideas or limitations around this topic. My understanding is, you're not going to find yourself in a room with 12 strangers forcing you to recount the worst night of your life.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  A well-run support group, it should give you a lot of control over how you participate, when you share, how your story gets handled. I think you could easily spend your first several meetings mostly listening and listening to other people describe experiences and thoughts and feelings and struggles that you've been secretly wrestling with. And, man, I think that would be really helpful. And since you're a man, you might want to look specifically for a group for male survivors, both because being among other men might make this easier, maybe even more meaningful, and also because the dynamics around male sexual assault, they can carry some additional layers, right? Masculinity and sexuality, control, power, fears about how other people will interpret what happened. All of that can be easier to discuss with people who get it firsthand. A nice place to start is RAIN.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  They operate the National Sexual Assault Hotline, which is a very good resource. They can also connect you with the local service providers, peer support, support groups. The hotline is available 24/7 and it's confidential. You can also easily Google support groups online, in your area and remotely. So many ways to get help. But Gabe, you remember when he said something along the lines of, "I don't want to tell people because I don't want to burden them with this information"?

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, tough sentence.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  This is another feeling I would talk about with my therapist. I do wonder if he feels this way because he's getting well-meaning but disappointing responses from people? Back to that question about validation from earlier.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but my sense is that these people have been pretty solid so far, but he's anticipating that they're going to experience him as a burden, rather than as a beloved friend who deserves their help. It might be the fear that they'll experience him that way that's most meaningful here, if he hasn't really gotten any indication that this is the case. And that is another template that probably predates Columbia.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Another thing from his past that he brought with him, yeah.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  I'm also just thinking about how he framed his question. How do I rebuild from nothing while also healing from all this? I find that wording interesting for a couple of reasons. First, it's got to speak to just how devastating this experience was for him. It wasn't just painful, it wasn't just scary. It wasn't like, man, that was horrible, but I'm still here, I can pick myself up and work with this. It sounds like it feels to him as if he's back at square one or just completely off the map.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  So I think what's happening for him is, it's not just that he's rebuilding his assets and career and all that. His whole model of reality is being rebuilt.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Hmm, model of reality and model of self. My understanding is that this kind of trauma has the potential to kind of shatter a person's sense of identity.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, look, he thought, probably, I have good judgment, my money is secure in a bank, vacations are fun and safe, I generally know how the world works, and if anything truly bad happens, look, these institutions are going to have my back. And then bam, this happens and the model just doesn't work at all. And that's what he's rebuilding. And to be fair, that can be extremely unsettling and disorienting and also legitimately terrifying.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  You're so right about this, yes. And that's not an easy thing to come to terms with. That takes time.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  It does. What I would invite him to remember as much as possible is that feeling of starting from scratch, whether it's starting over professionally or recovering from a breakup or recovering from trauma. I know it often feels that way, but what I've learned is, we're never really rebuilding from nothing. We always carry things forward. Knowledge, relationships, pure will and experience. But again, we're not here to tell him how to feel. I guess I just want to remind him that this assault did not erase the person he was before. It just kind of covered it up a little bit.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  It seems to have severed some connection to the person he was before, though. That person is still there. The parts of him that feel important and useful to him are still there, but obviously being hurt like this feels like a kind of death to him. And why that is and how that works is kind of mysterious. It's also very personal. Who knows? Maybe it's appropriate to some degree. I mean, he probably is not the person he was before in every way.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Or for that matter, the person he was planning on being, the guy he was on the way to being before this all happened.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Also a good point. He's probably feeling a lot of grief around that, a lot.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  But that's different from saying, nothing I was or had before matters and it's all gone now.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Yes, and that's the other thing I find interesting about this phrasing. I'm just thinking about how he opened his story with that roller coaster of ups and downs that we both responded to. I think we are hearing from a guy who is capable of a lot of dramatic change, whether it's getting in shape or making a ton of new friends or taking on a huge trip or moving to a new city, all of which are beautiful and impressive things to do. This guy does not just gradually make tiny changes. He like, molts, you know?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Dude is kind of a lobster. Do they molt?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Prozac crustacean. But I wonder if that also comes with a complicated identity piece, you know, a shifting relationship with himself. So I guess it's more of a question for you. Have you often felt in the past that you underwent a lot of change and found your previous self kind of remote or inaccessible and maybe sometimes unrecognizable? Has it been hard to feel like a continuous sense of self with all of this evolution? Because that might be a rich topic for you to explore with your therapist. If you feel that there was not a lot of connective tissue for you between your old self and your new self before Columbia, there might be some foundational work to do in creating that connection. There's like a narrative continuity that I think is crucial to healing and growing.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  I agree, because you have a lot of evidence that you can make huge changes in your life. You built a community, you developed a cool craft, woodworking, you walked 500 miles on one of the longest trails in America, you survived depression, you're navigating a complicated financial loss while recovering from something awful, you're working, you're taking care of yourself instead of collapsing, and you're in therapy. You have a real track record of resilience, transformation, evolution. So I think the big picture goal here is to keep showing up to therapy, keep showing up in your relationships, find the lost parts of you that you want to regain while integrating these new parts, these new feelings, new models, new perspectives that are going to help you grow. And that's a journey of tiny, consistent steps. And I'm sure you found this to be true when you hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. Nobody hikes 500 miles all at once, right?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  You hike today's miles, you hike this mile, this step, over and over again. And one day, you're at the end of the trail. I'm so very sorry this happened to you, bud, but your task now is to use this pain you're in to learn and grow and create a new model of the world and deepen your relationships, which I am confident you can do. Sending you a big hug and wishing you the best. You know what Colombian scammers on Grindr and our discount codes have in common? Before you know it, they're going to be gone. We'll be right back.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All of our sponsors are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  All right, next up.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Years ago, I was in a very bad place, mainly personally, and I couldn't see a clear way out of a deteriorating marriage in a place without any personal connections but a good professional position. My spouse was repeatedly and pointedly pushing me away, and in that fog, I had an affair. When it came to light, everything exploded.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Oof, okay, sounds intense.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  After a long contentious divorce, my ex and I have been physically separated for years, and I'm in a great place professionally. During that time, I've continued seeing the person I had the affair with. She splits her time between my area and another region where her family lives. Up till now, I've kept her visits completely separate from the time I have with my kids. Now that the divorce is finally over, she's ready to stop being hidden and wants to meet the important people in my life and fully be a part of the rest of my life. I'm also tired of juggling separate, compartmentalized worlds. I don't need legal advice. My attorney has already made it clear to me that my ex can't dictate who I'm with as long as my kids are safe, and they absolutely will be with this partner.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  I've told some of my siblings individually, but I still need to talk to my parents, other siblings, nieces, nephews, aunts and uncles. From my family's perspective, I'm now with the person I was once ashamed to admit even existed, and they've only ever heard about her in the context of crisis and conflict.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah, tricky.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  The hardest part is my kids, who are six and 12. I want to handle this in a way that's healthy and age-appropriate for them. But my other big concern is that my ex will lash out when she finds out, and that she'll use my past mistakes, especially the affair, to damage my standing with the kids, undermine their trust in me, or resume verbal and other attacks on me. I can't control her behavior, but I want to protect my relationship with my children and maintain my professional reputation, which she may seek to tarnish. To make matters more complicated, I work in a government role that requires a high-level security clearance. My partner is from a close allied country, and I met her years ago while I was assigned overseas, long before my marriage fully fell apart.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  I've already made the required disclosures through the formal channels at work, but I haven't shared anything personally with my boss, peers, or close subordinates, many of whom I consider friends. It's not common in my circles for a relationship that began under these circumstances to evolve into something long-term, even though plenty of people in my field end up with partners they met while working abroad.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so the work part of this isn't really much of a problem at all, from the sound of it?

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, not much. Sounds like his biggest concern is the opinions of his colleagues, who are not used to seeing people stick with the baddies they meet while stationed in Poland.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kind of his problem wherever he turns, though, right? How do I deal with people's feelings about all this, which I'm assuming will not be good?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  How do I navigate these introductions in a way that's honest, stable, and protective of my kids and my well-being, while also allowing me to finally break down the silos and silents I've been living in for years? Signed, looking for a guide, please, on how to stop trying to hide things when it comes to my former side piece.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Interesting challenge. Well, look, part of me wants to say, I'm very sorry you went through this contentious divorce, I'm sorry that's gonna be rocky to integrate these parts of your life now, that sounds really stressful, and I do feel that way. This is tough. I'm assuming if you stuck with this woman through all this, if this relationship that started as an affair has weathered the storm and blossomed into a real relationship, then there's something significant here. And yeah, of course, you don't want to keep her sidelined forever and banish her to side piece alley. If this is your person, then she's your person.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Siberia? I think you were going for Siberia.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Siberia? Ooh, that's good. Did you make that up?

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  I just, it just occurred to me.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  That's fantastic, yeah, Siberia. And she's gonna want to be a real part of your life. It sounds like that might be rocky, so I feel for you guys there. At the same time, this did start as an affair while you were married, and I understand that the marriage was far from perfect. You were in this fog you described, which we don't quite know what that means, it could be a lot of things, so let's put that aside. You chose to get involved with her, you chose to stay with her, now you're choosing to start integrating her into your life, and that choice, like all choices, comes with some consequences. And the big one, of course, is that a lot of people in your life might have some strong feelings about her, they might struggle to accept her, and there might be some ripple effects, namely with your ex and your kids, that you just can't fully control. To be clear, I say this without judgment, I'm not saying, hey, you cheated, bro, you

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  reap what you sow, deal with it. I'm just saying, this is a complicated situation, and it might continue to be complicated for some time, possibly forever for some folks in your life, like your ex-wife. So I guess that's my first thought for you. There's this question of, how do I introduce her to everyone now that we're a real couple? And then, there's this question of, how do I make sure everyone plays nice and accepts her, and this doesn't blow up in my face?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  I think the answer to that second one is, he just can't.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Right, he can't. He can try, and we can talk about that in a second, but ultimately, he can't control how people feel about this. And so the question behind his question might actually be, how do I deal with the repercussions of introducing my former mistress slash current partner to my family? How do I work through those challenges? How do I let the people in my life go through whatever process they're gonna go through around my new lady?

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  Or failing that, how do I make peace with those reactions and focus on the part of this that is mine, and enjoy that part?

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we just said, that's the real through line here. He strikes me as a person who wants to control as many of these variables as possible, and I get it, I probably would too, but part of his process here is realizing what he can control and what he can't control.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  From where I'm sitting, the only thing he can't control is how he talks to his ex and his kids and these other people about his partner, his decision to build a life with her, his decision to introduce her to everyone now, and then how he actually introduces them. That's about it.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the first half of that might even be even more important.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  I think he needs to set the stage here a little bit, you know, grease the skids, emotionally speaking, if he's gonna have success.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  I agree, just by having some very heartfelt and direct talks with these people before he introduces her.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  And the content of that particular chat is, what, what are we thinking? This is a tough one.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he might want to think about telling these people his story, letting them in on how he arrived at this point, why this woman matters to him, what their relationship is about, meaning why it's meaningful, it's not just a fling anymore, why introducing her to them now matters to him and all that, rewinding the tape on their story so that everyone can appreciate just why this is happening. And look, I'm aware this is partly self-serving, what he's up against is two narratives, and he wants his to win. His ex's narrative, possibly his kids' narrative, is basically, he cheated on me, cheated on mom, with his Polish side piece. Like, I don't know if she's Polish, I just think it's funny to imagine some embassy worker falling for a baddie from Krakow or whatever, but it is his Eastern European queen, and now, he wants us to accept her as his legitimate partner, as a stepmom, as part of the family,

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  and pretend it didn't start in this sort of unsavory way. His narrative is, my marriage was problematic, I met someone while I was married, and yeah, it was an affair, and that's painful and, you know, wrong or whatever, but this is the partner I want to be with, this is the partner that I'm choosing, and our relationship now is real and meaningful and safe for the kids and all that.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  And so, please accept Nadia as the person she is, and the person she is to me, and don't judge her based on the story of how we met, is what you're saying.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Right, again, this whole situation is obviously messy, but when you put it that way, I kind of do feel for him. I guess I would feel for him even more if I knew with 100% certainty that they're amazing together, and he and his ex were not a good fit, but it still doesn't really change the circumstances of how they got together. It doesn't erase the pain and instability this relationship probably caused, and I get that.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  I think the biggest challenge here is, his kids are six and 12? That's tough.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was about to say, they're still so young.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Possibly too young to fully appreciate that conversation. The 12-year-old, maybe, especially if they're mature for their age, but even a mature 12-year-old might struggle to understand why dad did this, or, you know, how do I reconcile dad's story with mom's story? She's telling us one thing in the car, he's telling us another thing at home, like, that's confusing for a child.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  The six-year-old, I don't think can have this conversation at all.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Maybe there's a version of it, maybe he says to his kids in slightly different ways, based on their ages, listen, when you're ready, I want to introduce you to somebody who's very special to me, I love her a lot, she loves me, she's a big part of my life, just like you guys are, and she's excited to get to know you.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  I like that, it's a nice start.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  But I would pretty quickly pause and ask them how they feel about that, if they're open to meeting her right now, how much, we also don't know how much they know about her, the circumstances, so that matters too. But yeah, check in with them, see if they have any questions or any feelings they want to share with you, before you continue with the pitch.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  And move slow, give them time to get used to the idea, some freedom to speak up.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  He might also work up to saying, and maybe this is more appropriate for the 12-year-old, but he could work up to saying something like, it's possible that some people in the family, like mom, are not gonna like Nadia, or want to be around her in the beginning. And I understand that, I used to be married to mom, now I'm with her, that can be really hard. It might also be a little confusing for you to hear one opinion from mom and another opinion from me, and that's okay. And if you feel that way about her too, that's okay too, you can tell me that, and I'm not gonna force you to meet her, or I'm not gonna force you to feel any type of way about her. But when you are ready, I want to give you all a chance to get to know each other, and you can decide for yourself how you feel about her on your own, and any way you feel is okay with me.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's nice. So, there are a couple things happening in there. One is, he's not rushing this, he's making it a process, he's giving them time, and permission to feel however they feel.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  To express that to him, I think that's important.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I would add, he then has to be, really be willing to receive that from his kids. You know, if they say, I don't want to meet her, or they meet her and they're like, this is the woman you left mommy for. It's awkward, we don't like her, or whatever. He really has to be willing to take that in and just kind of let it be for a little while.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Of course, absolutely. These, these are not just words, right? This is not a tactic.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, Gabe, I also think he really needs to avoid telling his kids, especially the 12 year old, that his marriage to their mother was bad. I would not try to make the case to your kids that the affair made sense somehow. I don't think that's appropriate at all.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  That's a really good point. That is not the conversation he's having with them. You know, why this affair made sense at the time, the fog that he found himself in when it happened, why it's legitimate, none of that.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  I hope he already knows that, but it does seem, based on his letter, that he's still kind of litigating the affair and the divorce. And I just want to make sure he doesn't do that with his kids. I would also say, if you're going to introduce your kids to Nadia, you have to tell your ex first, hear me out. You don't want the kids thinking, hey, I met dad's new girlfriend. Am I allowed to tell mom or not? You know, is this a secret I'm keeping? Your children should never have to run a classified information program between their parents. There's also a timeline where some of his family just never warms to her at all.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, very possible.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  But these scripts and these approaches, this ongoing conversation, that's kind of the only way I can see of mitigating this risk. I also think that this going well, that's not entirely on you. Your girlfriend also has a big role to play in that, in the way that she handles these first interactions with the people in your life.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Good point, and also a big role to play in being patient and understanding if it doesn't go very well at first.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, she needs to be kind and respectful, obviously, but she also needs to be a grown up and realize that not everybody's going to necessarily warm to her, especially immediately, and she might have some work to do to ingratiate herself with all these people.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, to earn her place in his life, so to speak, given how they met.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  To give his family and his colleagues a chance to get to know her as the person she is and not, you know, the old side piece from his work abroad. So there you have it, man. Since you're at this point, I'm assuming this relationship is solid and substantive, and it's worth whatever challenges you face in introducing her to everyone. And given that, I do wish you and your gal the best, and I hope over time, this works out as well as it can. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us, [email protected]. Keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to stick with the most important dream of your life, you're hiding a massive secret that could upend your entire family, or you suspect that you're a pedophile and you're too afraid to seek treatment for fear of ruining your life, even though you'd never hurt anyone. Absolutely fascinating letter from last week.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Whatever's got you staying up at night lately? Hit us up at [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Just a heads up, the following products and services might not be available behind the iron curtain, including the territory of Sideberia. We'll be right back.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It's a bite sized gem, it's a two minute read on some Wednesdays at this rate. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show, it's a great companion to the show and you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to Litville. My recommendation of the week, this is a tiny, mini, in fact, ceramic box cutter from a company called Slice. It's hard to explain this, but it's basically the size of a lens cap. I mean, this is really small, it's like the size of your thumb. The blade is this tiny, half centimeter triangle that you can touch, and it's dull to the touch, but it can very easily cut through cardboard, plastic, any kind of tape. Jen keeps it in her purse, it's retractable. And she also has one at home that we let our kids use. They couldn't cut themselves with it if they tried. You can bring it on airplanes. It comes in handy for opening boxes, packages, mail. We used it a ton in China. We'd be like, oh, I need scissors for something.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Oh, who has scissors? No, I got my ceramic cutter. I mean, they're just really, really, really easy to use and travel with and take up no space at all.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  My question is, is it sharp enough to cut through toenails when they get infected?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  It's amazing. It cuts all the things that you want it to, seemingly quite easily, toenails aside, and very much will not cut you. I mean, you would have to just do your best to even break skin with it. And then again, it's a half centimeter triangle. It's not really going to do much damage unless you get yourself directly. I mean, you really have to try to hurt yourself with this thing. That's again, why I let my four year old use it. This is a great purchase, you'll use it forever. It doesn't get dull or anything, well, it doesn't get more dull. It just stays working for years, so far for us anyway. And we'll link to that in the show notes. It's really money well spent. All right, next up.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 22 year old woman and I've been working at a small corporate office for about eight months. One of my closest coworkers is a 28 year old woman who's worked there for about three years, and we've become very good friends. Then recently, I had what was probably the most shocking day of my life. One afternoon, I noticed she was acting strangely at work. She seemed off, disoriented, and unlike herself. I eventually asked her directly if she had been drinking, because her behavior was concerning enough that I felt I had to say something. Shortly after that conversation, she left the office. As she was leaving, I watched her get into her car and something in my gut told me something was wrong.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  She was backing up oddly and didn't seem fully in control. I called her and during that conversation, she admitted that she was intoxicated. She lives about an hour away from work and I was terrified that she was going to hurt herself or someone else on the road. I convinced her to pull over and wait for me. When I got there, she completely broke down. Sitting in my car, sobbing, she told me that she has been struggling with alcoholism for years. She said she's been through rehab multiple times, has relapsed repeatedly, and has been hiding it from nearly everyone in her life. According to her, she has essentially been drinking continuously for the last three years, while telling people she was sober. She told me she felt like her entire life was falling apart.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  She said she had been lying to people, manipulating people, and living in constant fear of being exposed. She was overwhelmed with shame and convinced she had ruined everything. I was stunned. This is someone I consider a close friend. We talk regularly, we work together every day, yet I had absolutely no idea the extent of what was happening. Looking back, maybe there were signs, but I never connected them into anything this serious. Then I looked in her car. There were seven empty bottles of wine in it. Seeing that made everything suddenly feel real. This wasn't just someone having a bad day or making a poor decision. This was someone living with an addiction that was far more severe than I had ever imagined.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  I poured out the remaining alcohol and took her to the hospital to be evaluated. At first, she refused to call her mother or her sponsor. Eventually, after a lot of encouragement, she contacted both of them. She left her vehicle behind so she wouldn't continue driving and later got home another way. As far as I know, she is physically safe. She told me she is in contact with her mother and sponsor and plans to take things one day at a time. But now I feel completely overwhelmed. I feel shocked that I never knew, I feel disappointed that she was carrying this secret for so long. I feel scared for her future. Most of all, I feel a strange sense of responsibility that I don't know what to do with.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Ever since that day, I've had this lingering anxiety that something bad is going to happen. She lives alone. I worry that she'll stop answering her phone. I worry that she won't get help. I worry that she'll continue drinking and slowly lose everything she's worked for. I worry that this crisis won't actually change anything. At the same time, I know that I can't force someone into recovery. I care deeply about her, but I'm struggling to figure out where my responsibility begins and ends. I don't want to abandon a friend during one of the darkest moments of her life, but I also don't want to become responsible for keeping her sober. To make things even more complicated, we're a small office and the events of that day were noticeable enough that I suspect many coworkers now know something serious happened.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  I don't want to betray her trust by sharing details, but I'm not sure how to handle it if it comes up with our colleagues. How do you support someone with a severe addiction without becoming consumed by it yourself? How do you care about the outcome without feeling responsible for it? How do you deal with the shock of discovering that someone you thought you knew well has been living a completely different reality for years? And how do I navigate the workplace side of the situation? Signed, feeling like I'm going to toddle between the urge to coddle and the potential to hobble, my colleague after this debacle, when she finds herself at the bottom of the bottle.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Oh, man, this is a very sad story. So obviously, my heart goes out to your colleague who's clearly struggling with a serious alcohol addiction. This is really tragic. And I also feel for you. I've worked with a few addicts in my career. I know how painful it is to watch somebody you work with every day, someone you care about, spiral like this, lie, struggle to find help and stick with it. That's even harder when you're a kind and caring person. So again, very sorry about all this, although I think the questions this colleague is raising for you, they're super important. The answers are profound. So this is actually a wonderful opportunity to dig into a few big things. We wanted to get an expert's opinion on all this, so we reached out to Paula Heller Garland, addiction counselor and principal lecturer at the University of North Texas in the Addiction Studies Program.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  And the first thing Paula shared with us was, this feeling of being completely overwhelmed, it makes a lot of sense. She was sure that this was an anxiety inducing situation for you, to observe your coworker under the influence at work, to have zero control over her choices. As you know, people with alcohol use disorder, any kind of addiction, they often work hard to conceal any evidence of their addiction. So Paula would encourage you to not Beat yourself up for not noticing signs you didn't even know to be looking for. As for this anxiety that you feel that something bad is going to happen, well, I'll quote Paula directly here because I think she nailed it. As difficult as it is to tell you this, something bad may happen. You cannot stand in the gap between your colleagues and their consequences.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Doing so would be enabling and taking accountability for what is not your responsibility.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a banger, which kind of brings us to what I think is the real theme of your letter, as you already zeroed in on, my friend, your struggle to figure out where your responsibility begins and ends. I think you know that you are not ultimately responsible for this colleague, that you cannot make her get sober, or stay sober, or change her ways, or go to therapy, or do any of those things.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. How can you not worry and wonder what might be possible for someone?

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  I mean, harder for some than for others, of course. Paula understood this feeling well. At the same time, she wanted you to remember that you did not cause the addiction, and unfortunately, you cannot cure it. So yes, it's empathetic of you to care for her. Yes, it's kind of worry, but she said that you can support her without taking responsibility for her behavior. And I would add that I actually think you must, you must turn that corner.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Gabe, I find it funny that our friend here is saying, I feel responsible to some degree, but then she's also saying, I don't want to become responsible for keeping her sober.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. That is an interesting bind, and that bind might speak to her own history with this dilemma, which is something she might want to spend some time digging into. She thinks that's interesting. But so Paula's stance on this is she's glad that you understand that you cannot force someone into recovery, that you're not responsible for keeping her sober, nor can you even do that if you tried, and you can continue to feel deeply about her and support her in her recovery. But she also said something unexpected to us, and I think very insightful. She said, you just won't benefit from taking responsibility for her.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Ha, I do like that. Like, not only should you not take responsibility for this person, but what good is it even going to do if you could?

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  It's a nice reminder.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  As for how to handle what your coworker's going through, if it comes up with your other colleagues, that's a great question. I think that would be the hardest part for me. Paula was very clear in her recommendation there. She would not betray your coworker's trust and tell anyone else in the office about her issue. She explained to us that people who are yet to obtain long-term recovery, they're often vulnerable. Their trust is fragile. Knowing that people at work are talking about them behind their back, that she couldn't trust you to protect her, that could be very hurtful to her and very counterproductive. So to be more specific, Paula's advice there is, don't put your own job in jeopardy, but don't offer any information. Don't lie for her. Do not allow yourself to become the keeper of an elaborate cover story. Don't risk your employment or collegial relationships to protect her.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  In Paula's view, you can protect your coworker's privacy without misleading anyone. So if somebody comes up to your desk like, hey, what's going on with Angie? What was that all about last week? Maybe you say, I really don't think it's my place to talk about what may or may not be going on with her. If there's something she wants people to know, I think she should be the one to share it. Or if they're like, hey, is she an alcoholic? She's drinking, right? You might want to say, hey, that's really personal. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing someone else's health or personal situation. I think that's a question that you need to ask her. If they push, Paula suggests saying something like, I understand why you're asking, but I'm really not going to discuss her personal situation. I don't want to be part of office speculation about anyone. And then stop. You don't owe anyone a more convincing explanation than that.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Interestingly, Paula said there is one response she would tell you to avoid, which is basically, yeah, I don't know. I don't know anything about that. Because in fact, you do know, and if you said that, you would be lying. In Paula's view, once you start doing that, it's easy to inadvertently become part of maintaining the secrecy surrounding the problem.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a really nice distinction. Because I'll be honest, if I were in our listener's shoes, my first instinct might be to tell a little white lie. You know, I'm not to deliberately mislead anyone, just to stay out of it, try to be respectful without causing more friction. But what I like about what Paula is saying is you can tell the truth and appropriately respect somebody's privacy.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  Yes. She also drew a nice distinction between protecting this colleague's privacy and protecting her problem. In Paula's view, protecting her privacy means, don't tell coworkers what she disclosed, don't speculate about a diagnosis, don't share details about her treatment, don't become the source of office gossip, basically. Protecting the problem would mean covering up behavior, making excuses, you know, covering missed responsibilities, finishing her work for her so you can help conceal what's happening, lying about why she was absent, minimizing her impairment, or, you know, withholding information when somebody's safety or the workplace is genuinely affected.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Another great distinction, yeah. And look, if you absolutely have to discuss this with anyone at work, Paula would suggest talking about what you can observe, not what you believe caused it. So for example, if your friend comes to work in the future, appearing impaired, and you feel like it's a liability, maybe you go to your boss and you say, I'm concerned about Angie's ability to work safely today. Her speech seems different than usual. She's having difficulty staying focused. She's a little unsteady. I think somebody who is responsible for handling those situations should go check in on her. And to that, I would add, and I'm speaking for myself here, I would say, if she's about to go drive home an hour and you know that she's hammered, all of this privacy stuff, the safety of everyone on the road trumps your friendship or loyalty duty to this woman.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  I hope it doesn't come to that, but you can't screw around with privacy and confidentiality if someone's going to drive an hour on the highway completely wrecked.

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  And look, if there are legitimate workplace concerns, then obviously you're going to want to consult the appropriate supervisor, HR, employee assistance program, if you guys have like a professional ethics resource, all of those standard people to turn to, rather than trying to determine by yourself what should happen. To quote Paula again here, your knowledge of the alcohol problem should increase your compassion, but it should not require you to abandon your normal professional judgment. Your job is not to make sure your friend never experiences consequences. Your job is to make sure she does not create additional consequences unnecessarily. So as for how to support someone with a severe addiction without becoming consumed by it yourself, Paula's recommendation, and I was pumped to know that she recommends this too, is to check out some Al-Anon meetings.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  You probably know this if you listen to the show. Al-Anon is for people who care about someone who has an alcohol use disorder. Paula told us that what Al-Anon will provide you with is, first of all, a fellowship of people who understand your feelings and experiences, because they've all been there. And they will also provide you with some great tools to support somebody without enabling them, which is such a delicate balance, right? And by the way, Al-Anon has meetings in person, online, very convenient. They can be found in most cities around the world. The website is al-anon.org, and we're going to link to that in the show notes.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  It's interesting, Gabe. She might be listening to this going, am I really supposed to go to a support group for Angie, our bookkeeper who sits by the window? And I get it, this is not her spouse, it's not her sister, this is just a colleague.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she did say that they've become pretty good friends, but it is a little unconventional to go out and do all of this work for somebody you're not super, super, super tight with, or who isn't family.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yes, but something about watching this coworker struggle with this is clearly bringing up something much deeper. And so I say, why not use the opportunity to explore why that is? Maybe you go to just one or two meetings, you get some tools, get some gems, and that's that. Or maybe you go and discover that the program is really for you, and you have a lot to learn. It's all fair game.

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  Could not agree more. You know, I'm just appreciating how confusing it is to know how to show up for somebody with an addiction who, yes, is a friend, but is ultimately a colleague. Just the ambiguity of that relationship, maybe also the culture of their company, or the personalities of the people involved can complicate matters. It's just an interesting dilemma, but for Paula, this really comes down to understanding the difference between support and responsibility, right?

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  I 100% agree. And about dealing with the shock of discovering that Angie has been living a completely different reality for years, Paula said you might find yourself mentally reviewing years of conversations and experiences. That is a very human response to learning important information that radically changes your understanding of someone. But she also wanted to caution you against believing that everything about the friendship was false because part of your friend's life was hidden. Again, people with significant alcohol problems can become extraordinarily skilled at compartmentalizing their lives. Shame, fear of consequences, denial, the need to protect continued drinking, they can all contribute to secrecy. Someone can genuinely love their friends, be talented at their job, laugh, celebrate birthdays, be a great hang, offer good advice, and simultaneously conceal a serious alcohol problem.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Those realities can coexist. So Angie might have lied, minimized, concealed, manipulated, or behaved in ways that genuinely damaged your trust, but you do not have to choose between understanding she has an illness, thereby allowing yourself to be hurt, and believing that her deception equals, well, I guess our whole friendship was fake. There's a lot of territory between those two positions. Again, compassion for your friend and grief for her and the relationship. And so when you feel this urge to make sure your friend is staying sober, Paula would encourage you to ask yourself this question from time to time. Am I doing something because it's genuinely helpful, or am I doing something because it temporarily relieves my anxiety about this?

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Such a good question, and also very Al-Anon, I have to say.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm very sorry that you, your colleague, and your whole team are going through this. It's uncomfortable, it's sad, and I know it can be confusing, but like we keep saying, this situation is putting you in touch with some very important insights of your own, and it's inviting you to consider your relationship with responsibility. That's stemming from a very tragic situation, but for you, I think it's a powerful opportunity if you really dig into it. Sending you all a big hug and wishing you all the best. Big thanks to Paula for her expertise and wisdom here. You can learn more about Paula and check out the wellness podcast she co-hosts, lifelivedbetter.net. Also, in case you don't know, we got a subreddit for the show if you want to discuss what seems to be, the Feedback Friday, of course, is the favorite on the subreddit, but there's discussions about a lot of elements of the show that's over there on the Jordan Harbinger

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  subreddit. Thanks for joining us this week. Go back and check out Joseph Moore on our Skeptical Sunday on female genital mutilation, if you haven't done that yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that for yourself in Six Minute Networking. It's our free course. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy, it's very useful, takes a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build those relationships before you need them. SixMinuteNetworking.com is where it's at. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Todd Sodlouskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Paula Heller Garland's input is general psychological information. It is intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  You'd never obey a stranger who called you and told you to commit a crime, right? Javier Leva uncovers how ordinary, intelligent people were manipulated by fake authority into doing the unthinkable, and why the certainty that you'd never fall for it could make you the perfect target.

• 1:34:10Speaker 05

  This is the con, because I interview a lot of con artists. What they do is they overwhelm you, they raise your sense of urgency, which now you're bypassing all your common sense, things that would normally make sense to us. We're not even thinking about that, right? Because we're like in a state of alarm. We're hardwired to trust people. People obey because we're taught to respect authority. I found case after case of people impersonating ICE agents and doing all kinds of stuff, not just rape or violent crime, extortion, like all kinds of stuff. And I was like, you know what? You could go to a Bass Pro Shop and buy your ICE uniform, right? And you could pull off whatever you want, because people respect authority.

• 1:34:55Speaker 05

  People are afraid of authority, and they will most likely do what you say, and you might fall for it. This is just the tip of the iceberg, man. When somebody causes a sense of urgency and you bypass your logic, just slow it down, pause it, give yourself some time to think, because when you're acting out of fear, you're making bad decisions. And I think just doing that will save you a lot of grief. This stuff is insane, and is probably the most extreme examples, but I think that just have that in the back of your mind, that some people are looking to take advantage of you, and just have a healthy dose of skepticism.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Find out how to recognize the trap before your judgment and your life unravels on episode 1330 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.