1379: Joseph Moore | Why Getting Ahead Has Never Been Easier

Convinced you missed your shot at getting rich? Historian and former broke professor Joseph Moore is here to explain why it's never been easier. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1379 https://jordanharbinger.com/1379 What We Discuss with Joseph Moore: The "American Dream is dead" cry is 300 years old. Colonists burned their own capital over it in 1676, long before the phrase existed. A despair industrial complex profits by telling you the game is rigged, because doom earns the clicks, votes, and tenure that good news won't. Getting ahead has never been easier — not easy, not fair, just easier. Six in 10 born in the bottom fifth climb out, one in 10 reach the top, and both wages and purchasing power beat what they were at your birth. Your ancestors would have prayed for these odds. Real wealth is built in slow time. Movies and headlines sell the dramatic version, so we chase crypto and sports betting for a fast-time win. That's not how fortunes are made. Budgeting, index funds, and skipping avocado toast protect wealth but rarely build it — that's just solving your own problems. You get wealthy solving other people's, taking risks others avoid, and moving toward opportunity. And no "timeless" money advice is timeless; it keeps changing. The best slow-time move you can make this week is to invest in yourself. A course, certificate, or skill that lifts your earning power can double or triple your income, outpacing any index fund. Believe you can, then take the risk. It's always been possible. And much more... And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: Arca Wealth Management: Book a free 30-minute call: arcawealth.com/jordan https://www.arcawealth.com/jordan/BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordan https://www.betterhelp.com/jordanGusto: Three months of free payroll: gusto.com/jordan https://gusto.com/jordanProgressive: Free online quote: progressive.com https://www.progressive.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:25Speaker 00

  Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Solving your problems will keep you from going broke. It will not make you wealthy. You get wealthy solving other people's problems. You get wealthy taking risks that other people aren't willing to take. Pessimists sound smart and optimists live in big houses. There's always been kind of a despair industrial complex who win by telling you the thing is broke. You cannot escape big woe today. It's amplified because there's no clicks for a journalist. There's no votes for a politician. There's no tenure for academics like me. If we go around and tell you the world is getting better, but we can have all of those things. If we tell you it's broken and the system is constantly reminding you to give us the reward. You get disempowered by listening. We get rewarded by telling you that.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. From spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional war correspondent, neuroscientist or music mogul. Now, if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do that. I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit JordanHarbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Today on the show, Joseph S. Moore, historian, investor and former Brogass College professor, who began a 10-year research project expecting to prove the American dream was all a scam and then had the deeply inconvenient experience of getting rich and changing his mind. His central claim is practically engineered to start a fight. Getting ahead in America has never been easier. Not easy, not fair, not guaranteed, just easier. We'll test that against unaffordable housing, inequality, survivor bias and the obvious problem with taking financial advice from anybody whose own success began by escaping the 2008 housing crash roughly a week before the door slammed shut. Joseph explains why Americans declared the American dream dead centuries before anyone called it the American dream in the first place.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  How the despair industrial complex profits by convincing you the game is already over. And why most wealth is built quietly in slow time and then revealed suddenly when fast time arrives. We'll also examine why budgeting and diversification can protect wealth but rarely create it. Why solving other people's problems beats obsessing over avocado toast and lattes. And why compound interest and passive income may be the pornography of personal finance. Along the way, fart coin, that's a real crypto apparently, a fake $10 billion crypto fortune, George Washington riding through diarrhea to marry rich, financial independence as CrossFit, an acre of moon property zone for tourism and a first rental experience involving human trafficking and the FBI.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Because nothing says prudent financial planning like the feds asking you not to evict your tenants. Now, here's Joseph Moore.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  Let me start off by jumping down your throat here because you make a claim in the book that I think is going to irritate a lot of people, which is a great way to start a book, by the way. Getting ahead in America has never been easier. But then you're like, well, I was a broke professor and I got lucky escaping the 2008 housing crash. And then I got some ideas and I used those to make millions of dollars. But then I blew myself up with debt almost. So how on earth is your argument not just survivor bias dressed up as history?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, if a guy fails upward, you too should buy a lottery ticket. Yeah, I take that point. Okay, so we have this American dream is dead motif that is everywhere, right? It's in the water, it's on Instagram.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  I see it a lot online, yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  You've heard of it, yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  The nihilism of Gen Z, I think some people call it, except it's not just Gen Z. It's everybody up to, I'm 46, so what is that, Gen X? It goes all the way down.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's not new. Okay, so let's start there. So I did that the American dream is dead. So I can find people telling you the American dream is dead about 300 years before I can find the phrase, "American dream," which pops up in the 1930s.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  Really? So the origin of the American dream was already saying?

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all done. You got here too late.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  If you weren't on the Mayflower, tough luck, yeah.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  So in 1676, this is 100 years before Hamilton's going to rap on Broadway.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  The colonists of Virginia burned their own capital to the ground in protest that nobody could get ahead anymore.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  In the 1800s, there's all these speeches given about the rungs on the ladder to success. And the lines in the speech are like, the rungs on the ladder to success were sold off by all the people who got here right before you. You showed up just a bit too late. I have a bestselling book in my library back home from 1984. And it basically says, "The baby boomers will never be able to afford to retire." Sold 100,000 copies.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Really? Because now the narrative is the baby boomers took all the wealth, they're making it so that we can't buy any houses. We're never going to be able to afford to retire. Although I have to admit, it does sound quite credible that Gen Z will never be able to retire. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  This is what the baby boomers were being told when they were in their 30s. I call this big woe, right? There's always been kind of a despair industrial complex who win by telling you the thing is broke.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  A despair industrial complex is such a great phrase.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's there. It was in every era. Here's the difference. Now it's buzzing your butt in your phone. You cannot escape big woe today. It's amplified because there's no clicks for a journalist. There's no votes for a politician. There's no tenure for academics like me. If we go around and tell you the world is getting better, but we can have all of those things. If we tell you it's broken and the system is constantly reminding you to give us the reward. You get disempowered by listening. We get rewarded by telling you that.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  That's interesting. The clicks thing makes sense to me. I didn't realize academics also had the same issue. You have to be part of the grievance industrial complex or whatever.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  You do not win any awards. You're not going to get a Guggenheim Fellowship. You're not going to win anything that your peers reward you with. If you say, man, things are pretty good, you just don't get the carrot. And so the system incentivizes talking about what is broken and proposing solutions, often solutions that will make it worse. But you don't care about that part. The incentives are all built in.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  That makes sense. It's funny because I was just thinking, Steven Pinker wrote The Better Angels of Our Nature or whatever it's called. And that was about how everything is better. That's the one book that got famous because it wasn't saying the thing that you're saying and every other book says.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And he was already tenured at Harvard.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  And he was already kind of a big deal by then.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  We, like, he had no one to offend or nothing to lose. And whereas people who are trying to climb up the ranks, if you want to be a journalist and you want to win, the only way you're going to get to behind the desk on whatever news show is by being a part of that, here's what's wrong and I'm going to go find it.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  That's interesting, yeah. There's an origin story here and I want to get there. You grew up measuring wealth by whether somebody had a two-story house, which is kind of funny, right? So what did rich mean to you before you knew anything about finance and money?

• 8:27Speaker 02

  I meant having a two-story house. I'm from the rural South. And so there was like mobile homes and what we call shotgun cabins. A shotgun cabin is a wooden home that's so small from front to back that if you fire a shotgun shell in the front door, there's a back door that usually lines up perfectly with the front door and the shotgun shell will not expand by the time it leaves. That's how small these things are. And my family lived on a stick-built ranch, but like you went seven doors down this way and there was a mobile home park and you went three doors down that way. Shotgun cabin. So like, we were one step up from bottom and we were very cognizant, like, we don't want to fall back there. Families dream about being able to say, my son's a doctor, she's a lawyer. Our parents dreamed we wouldn't go to prison. Like, this is the goal.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Stay out of the very part of the bottom and stay clinging to this working class life that we've worked really hard to build. Across town, there were families with two-story houses and they had their own bedrooms. It's like, that sounds rich. So I didn't come from money. The only kind of inscription quote I use in the whole book was Mark Twain where he says, "Where I came from, we never talked about money because no one had enough money to furnish a topic of conversation." It wasn't a goal you had because I literally knew no one by the time I was 18 who had gone to Harvard, Yale, Princeton. I didn't know a single person who ever even went to an Ivy League school. I had heard of Clemson. Like, DC schools was high as the ambition ladder went.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I grew up in Michigan and I grew up middle class, but my family just wanted me to go to college. And then when I got into Michigan, they were thrilled because that was like the best school that you could get into in Michigan. And when I applied to Georgetown, they were like, why would you leave the state? And I had to explain to my parents, hey, it's not just about getting into the best local school anymore. They're different now. They specialize in different things. And my parents were kind of like, ah, none of that really matters. I did end up going to Michigan and then stayed there for law school. But now, whatever, your kids want to go to Oxford and go to the London School of Economics? It's like, great, go ahead. You can't afford it probably, but sure, apply, why not? See what happens.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Not where I came from.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want to avoid shaming people who still live in mobile home parks and shotgun cabins because I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that. But yeah, they're not rich.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's not. Rich is not a thing you would use to describe anything that they're living. However, as I'd say in the book, some of these salt of the earth people, some of them, the moral character it takes to not fall that one very important step backwards is really important. It takes a lot more effort to not fall back that one step than it does to climb three more up.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  I totally believe that. That actually makes a lot of sense. I think it probably is easier, like you said, to just say, you know what? I see it among wealthy people too. Everybody's scamming, so I can do this thing that's slightly dishonest. I can cheat on my taxes, whatever it is, because everybody they know is doing it. And it's probably really hard not to go, you know, I'll just do this thing and it'll make my life a little bit easier in the short term.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, the quote-unquote Bible belt gets a lot of bad press, as it were, for the downside of religious cultures. But a lot of these cultures are built. To help people learn the skillset, the cultural skillsets that it takes to live a life in the working class and maybe even advance. So, one of the things I talk about in the book was the, you asked about my origin story. I didn't come from money, so I didn't pursue it. I've never taken a business class in my life. The fact that I am wealthy and don't have to work if I don't want to is mind blowing to me. Now, the way all this starts is, I'm getting a graduate degree in history because I fell in love with history when I was a kid and someone was like, "You can do that for a job. You can be a professor and talk about history." "That sounds awesome." They like fire muskets. And, so, I'm doing this PhD in history, it's 2005, 2006.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Everybody says the lesson of history is clear. Renting throws your money away. Who would want to do that? So, you buy a house. This is 2006. It was as crazy as you hear. So, we had a student loan. My wife and I are both graduate students. They let us use our student loan money to qualify for the mortgage to buy the house. Like, it's just bad. I remember the guy sliding me the paper and I started asking questions. He was like, "Just sign it." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So, that's 2006, I think. 2008, at our church, back to this idea of these cultural institutions that get a lot of bad press, but that actually, in the interior of those cultures, are a lot of where you learn your social skills for navigating the real world. Parenting, finances. Our church offers a personal finance class for families. I said, "I'm not gonna go because I'm getting a PhD in history. Wife's getting a PhD in sociology.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  We know enough about how the world works."

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Which should have been a warning sign. We go because the friend who's leading it was like, "Please, just come."

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Show up.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. It'd be an empty room. Don't let me be embarrassed if nobody shows. I was like, "It's a favor to a friend." We go, they make us fill out a budget, go home and like, "Who gave us a mortgage?"

• 12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  "We have no business owning a home."

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Math, what is the math in?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  "Who are the two idiots who signed this paperwork?" "Oh, we, we signed this paperwork." And so, we put our house on the market. It sells on a Saturday. I distinctly remember that because the next Saturday, our neighbor put her house on the market and it didn't sell.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Because the things had already begun.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  The 2008 Titanic. We got off the Titanic and then the thing sank.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Your toes were wet.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I wasn't even aware. There were some things in the news, but nobody was freaking out yet. And so, we get off the Titanic and then the thing sinks. And so, it's 2008. I'm like, watching careers fall apart, the economy implode. I studied history for a living and there was not a single thing I had read that had informed anything I had done. And so, that's kind of set me off on a quest. I need to understand as a historian, like, what were people told to do with their money? Did it work? What worked? What didn't? How did it change? That's kind of the origin story to the book.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  I don't always write everything down that I see in books. Was it you who had stapled your carpet to the wall so that if the floorboard gave out, you would have a second to jump off? Yeah, okay.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  So, in the rural South, so, I did for a while, slip back into a mobile home and I lived there for a while. I'm like 18 years old. I got into like a small junior college. I didn't go to a four-year school, like a junior college that would let me in. And, the floorboard had rotted out in front of my bedroom, a space about this big. And so, we took the carpet. We stretch it out and we take a staple gun, we like staple it to the wall really good and into the edge of the floorboard on the other end. And that way, when you stepped on it, you would sink and you would know, "Get off right now. Otherwise, it's gonna collapse to the bottom." And that, I was quite proud of this. That was an ingenious use of a staple gun.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  God forbid you should go to Home Depot and get a different floorboard or something, man.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  This is how people in the South think to solve problems.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Put the carpet over it.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Problem solved. Like, the staples were cheaper than new wood.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  True. Okay. I can't argue that logic. How much is a new ankle?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  I never fell all the way through, so it must have worked. Whoever came after me, I have no responsibility for. But, that's the kind of cultural milieu, as it were, to use a fancy word, that I came from. So, when I went to go study the book, I had zero interest in writing a book about rich people. Because, do we need another book on a Rockefeller? We've got all this covered. But, we don't have histories of like everyday people. And we don't have histories of everyday people that everyday people would actually read. And so, that would be something they could engage with. So, that's kind of what I set out to do.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  So, you began the research. You said something like, "A pious cynic expecting to document rich people stealing from poor people."

• 15:21Speaker 02

  So, I was part of big whoa.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Big whoa. You're part of big whoa. Okay. But, not knowingly or just?

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Oh, very knowingly. Because, I'm watching, back to 2008, like, I'm watching this thing sink. Hate to be morose, but it's kind of like watching the wedding video of a couple who dies on their honeymoon. You're like, watching all these people's lives implode because they did what they were told and you're like, "Oh, it's all a scam."

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. It's rigged.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a rigged game. Again, I'm in academia. If I want a job, if I want tenure, if I want to publish a book, I have to say what my colleagues agree should be said. Now, I need to go back one step here, which is that my father was not a typical southern kind of guy. He came from kind of mill workers and those mill workers had struck in one of the most famous southern mill strikes in the 19-teens. And, they had lost, and lost badly. And, the family memory remembered.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Is this like some Pinkerton's called in type of stuff?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Something like that. It wasn't the actual Pinkerton's, but there were police sent in, National Guard sent in, and the strikers lost terribly. My grandmother was born in those mill cabins. And so, my dad used to vote for communists in South Carolina for president. This is risking your job. You don't say that out loud. Don't tell anybody.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Communists?

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  I didn't even realize those people were running back then.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. One-third of 1% of the vote tally. My dad is in there somewhere. So, I kind of had that strain already. It's a scam, it's rigged, you can't win, the everyday guy can't get ahead. So, I go into academia and on the first day of class, I would assign Karl Marx. And I always remember that, the Communist Manifesto to these freshmen in the southeast, the small kind of liberal arts colleges. It was almost like pornography, like, they'd hide it sometimes in their other books. And you'd see them around campus, like, reading it. You'd realize that they were like hiding it in another book.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Oh, that's really funny. Yeah. Like, the, "Take the jacket off of that and put Dale Carnegie jacket over it," or something like that.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  But, no, this is what I would assign. And I've actually had students reach out to me since the book came out and be like, "You gave me a lecture in my freshman year that said the American dream was a scam and now you're saying that it's real? So, can you explain, please?" It's like, "Oops, sorry. Can I get a tuition reimbursed?"

• 17:17Speaker 00

  I became a communist because of you, man. What happened?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Come on, man. We're out here at the DSA, like, fighting the fight. Where did you abandon ship?

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. That's interesting. Okay. There's a common phrase that I think I probably heard at first from my dad. He didn't make it up, obviously. But, he says, "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" When did that stop being an insult and start becoming an experiment?

• 17:37Speaker 02

  So, I decided to go off and research all this stuff and it took me over 10 years of, because I'm trying to read everything. 300 years of history is like, you just can't do it. I'm reading stuff from the 1700s, 1800s, 2000s, 1900s, whatever. And, I start to compose what is really a recipe book, right? Of like, "Oh, this is how they did it in this era. This is what they were told to do. Does it work? This is what they were told to do in another era. Does it work?" And then, I thought, "Okay."

• 18:02Speaker 00

  Were they actually telling people how to get ahead? Because, for some reason, thought that was almost like a, not new thing, but a post-World War II thing. Because, I just assumed everybody until, I don't know, that 1950s was just like, "This is our social stratum and we're gonna stay here forever and there's no mobility."

• 18:20Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  So, the, we say, "Can somebody get ahead?" They used to say, "Go ahead." The verb was "go," it was a little more active. And people were talking about, "Go ahead, a go-ahead culture forever." This was the phrase of the 1800s. Go ahead. The goal was like, "Go ahead." That's your, it's what you're trying to do, is to get yourself from where you are to where you want to be. In fact, the title of the book was "Men as a Joke." And somebody was like, "Joseph, you're a historian, you're the only person who gets the joke." Which is, there's all these books for hundreds of years called "How to Get Rich In." And then, they'd be like, "How to Get Rich in Cattle. How to Get Rich in Candy Make. How to Get Rich in Whatever." And you'd find these books and these pamphlets all over America. And so, I thought it was like, "Oh, I'll name the book like a nod to that." No, people were doing this all the time.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  That is fascinating, genuinely. Because, I don't know, you think of earlier times as, they're very stable, maybe.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Plotting ahead.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. They just, you had your job, you kept it for your entire life, that was the end of it, right?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  That's a very 1950s locked-in-place idea, but it really does not hold for most of history. Most people were trying to go ahead. I give an example of this, and one of my favorite examples of this, is the abolitionist Frederick Douglass. Douglass, famous, knows Lincoln. Before the Civil War, his most famous speech is "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July." It's in every history class probably in the United States today and we should teach it. It's an incredible speech. After the war, though, that's what he did, he's a professional speaker. And, everywhere he went, the most popular speech of his entire life, by far, was called "Self-Made Men." And in that speech, wherever he would go, people would holler it out when he would arrive like it was a rock concert. "Play the hits! Do self-made men!" That was the way people thought about public speeches back then.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  And that speech, the crescendo line is, maybe, again, he's a black man right after the American Civil War. He's like, "Maybe I can't be president, but I can be prosperous. I can go ahead." And he says, "Our motto..." Now, think about his crowd, half former slaves. He says, "Our motto is, 'Go ahead. Move from where you are to where you want to be.'"

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Hustle culture has existed forever, basically. That's crazy. Before we go any further, I would love to have you argue a little bit against your own central thesis here, if I can, which is who genuinely today does not have an easier path? What happens when people listen to things like this is they go, that's fine, you're two white guys talking about how you can still get ahead.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  So let's just kind of broadly sweep across the entire American population and then we'll kind of dig in ethnically or subcultures, right? Of people born at the bottom 20%, okay, so if you divide all Americans into five groups, the bottom 20% of those born in the bottom 20% today, six in 10 will get out, four in 10 will become middle class to upper middle class, one in 10 will go all the way to the top. That is not perfect mobility. Perfect mobility would be eight in 10, but it is not zero. It is better than average. If I went back into the 17, 1800s and told your ancestors that if you're born at the bottom, you got a six in 10 shot of getting out and a one in 10 shot of making it all the way to the top, they would drop to their knees and pray to whatever god they worshiped in gratitude, or they wouldn't believe me, because that would be a world they couldn't conceive of.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  So, believe it or not, economic mobility in the 1800s, when we think about kind of the going west and all the things, is about four in 10. People were getting ahead a little bit less prominently than we are today, close, but not there. Now, why did they not care about that? Because they were getting ahead faster than anyone else anywhere on the face of the planet. There's a reason they're leaving famine plagued China. There's a reason they're leaving Eastern Europe and Poland and Scandinavia and like all these places they're coming from, and the Caribbean in the 20th century. They're coming here because the chances of getting ahead here, far higher than getting ahead where they were leaving. Now, our chances of getting ahead today are better than their chances of getting ahead then. Nobody's going to tell you that, because again, there's no incentive for telling you that.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  It's crazy to think that if you left Eastern Europe, I don't know, around World War I, of course you had upward mobility coming to America. That's a given, right? But now our upward mobility is still better than that.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  And think about, and not only that, you're actually starting from a higher floor. Your floor of what a decent life is now, just to be in the rough middle, is living a life like they were trying to get to, to go upwardly mobile. So even if you fail, you start and end in a better place. Now, in terms of like immigrant cultures, there was a recent book, and it's going to escape me, so I won't mangle the title or the authors. I know that professors were out of Stanford about three or four years ago, a book on immigrants today, and they found that statistically immigrant upward mobility today, just as high as it was in the 1800s and early 20th century. It actually has not changed at all. Now, these are different populations. They're coming from the Caribbean, they're coming from South America more often, some of them are coming from Africa, but they're just as likely to get ahead as Italians were,

• 23:01Speaker 02

  as the Chinese were, as people from Scandinavia were. And one of the chapters I have in the book is called, "Immigrants Make the Best Capitalists." And so whatever you think about immigration today, I don't know if you heard, it's slightly charged topics.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, it can be, yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Put your political opinions to the shelf. In every era, everything people say about immigrants today, I can find in every era. I can find everything we're saying about immigration today about Scots in the 1740s, the Scottish, oh, these Scots, like they're taking people's jobs, they live these super frugal lives.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  They eat cats or whatever.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  They'll eat things we won't eat. They literally say this, right? They're willing to do things we won't do. And so what I argue in the book is there's not really a particularly strong historical argument that there's ethnic financial strategies, there's immigrant financial strategies, and they transcend every culture. They will do what it takes because this system that we live in rewards the strivers. And so those who won were those who went, whether they were leaving these other nations here, whether they're coming from the Caribbean or South America today, or you live in the largest free market zone in the history of the world. Pause over that, back to this idea of no way I can get ahead. You live in the largest, most successful free market zone in the history of the world. There is an opportunity for you somewhere. And so if you live in Maine, you can get a job in New York, or if you live in New York,

• 24:14Speaker 02

  you can get a job. If you're in California, you can go to Austin or wherever, or Austin and go to California. You're like, there is an opportunity somewhere in this huge system, if you are willing to, as immigrants were willing to do, get up and go. And by the way, this holds. So today, if you leave one state for another state for economic opportunity, not only will you earn more over the course of your life, your children, they've done longitudinal studies, your children will earn more over the course of their life because you pursued opportunity.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Does it only take one parent to do that? Because my wife's from California, but I'm from Michigan.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  We'll say it counts.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned this. My dad was the first person in his family, I think, to go to college. I'm pretty sure that's the case. And his brothers once told me like, oh, if your dad hadn't gone to college, I never would have thought to go to college because you only needed a high school diploma to work on the assembly line at Ford or GM. And that was an awesome job back in the 60s or whatever it was, right? And then my dad was a little bit annoyed, I think a little bit annoyed, when I decided to move, but he was like, he got a law job in New York. I was doing mortgage backed securities, so I'm familiar with what we're talking about here.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  You were deeply on the other side of what I was signing.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like the second year lawyer, so I didn't have the full appreciation of what we were actually up to over there. I was counting parking spaces and blueprints. But a lot of my cousins started to leave Michigan after I did, and they said, you know, if you hadn't left, I never would have thought to move, which their parents didn't appreciate so much. But it's interesting because those are some of my most well-off cousins, of course, are the ones that moved to New York, or moved to California, or moved to Florida, or are digital nomads, whatever, traveling the world, doing their consulting company that they founded, working remotely. Those are the most financially, I should say financially successful. My cousins are all doing great, but they're the ones that have the most capital. So that definitely checks out in my own life. It's just the people who are willing to take that extra risk and leave.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  Because Michigan, after Detroit started going downhill, the state wasn't exactly on an upswing for quite a while.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  No, the Rust Belt had a rough go there. I'm from the South and we had all those pre NAFTA, small industrial jobs. Everybody tells me how wonderful the 90s were. It was like, I lived in the 90s. There's a reason 20% of our parents voted for Ross Perot. The guy who sounded like a ventriloquist dummy and looked like a ventriloquist dummy.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  He had those big ears.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They were scared, like that great sucking sound was their jobs going to Mexico. That was the towns that I was raised around. There was like one or two mill towns, and I dated a girl who lost an arm in one of those. She was working in the plant one day, like caught her arm and tore it off. Like, this was the world we lived in, and we wanted those jobs, those dangerous jobs, and they all went to Mexico. So every generation deals with their version of this. Back to this idea of like, here's two middle aged white men who made it, telling the rest of the world, it's easier. All right, wages, I say this and everybody looks at me like I have a third eye, wages are higher today than when we were born. I was born in the 70s. Wages are up, adjusted for inflation, a minimum of 20 to 29%. That's from left leaning groups.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  So if I go to left leaning economists, they will say wages are up about 25 to 30%. If I go to centrist and right leaning economists, they'll say they're up 50 to 60%. Without getting into the weeds of the debate, everybody agrees that wages are higher today than then.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Wasn't it, wages are up adjusted for inflation, but the purchasing power or something is not as high as it was back then? Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  No, purchasing power's higher. Now, the one that sticks in everybody's craw is the housing. All right, housing and healthcare are the two things that everybody will point to and say, sure, I can buy a cheap TV, but my dad bought a house for a stick of gum and I can't even afford to rent in a safe neighborhood. And so let's be very clear, I am not being Pollyannaish and saying we have no problems. I am saying all of these problems have been faced before. By the way, this is neither the first nor the worst housing crisis we've had. Now, that does not help a millennial who would like to get on the property ladder, but it is true that we have had, not only have we had housing crises before, we have had worse housing crises before. 1948, it's statistically twice what it is today, the shortage of housing. And a young man who's come back from World War II decides to run for Congress, his number

• 28:14Speaker 02

  one platform in his congressional run is housing affordability and the housing crisis, and his name is John F. Kennedy. The number one personal finance book of 1950, it's a New York Times bestseller, is called "Your Dream House: How to Build It Yourself for $3,500." That is the title of the book. And it was a like perennial bestseller. Popular Mechanics, the magazine, they'd notice, they'd sell more magazines whenever they'd have a "How to Build Your Own House" essay.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  I think my mailbox was $3,500 if you include the permitting fees to the state of California for, I don't know, drilling a hole in the ground.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  How many engineers does it take to inspect this hole?

• 28:51Speaker 00

  That's right, yeah. Well, I used metal and concrete, so it was pretty pricey. We've done some mods to our house, and I just remember going, who realistically could ever afford to do this? Because we added a pavilion or whatever to our backyard, and it was twice the price of the house that I grew up in Michigan, twice, the whole house. So I'm like, unless you could have lived in a tent in your gazebo out in the back, nobody could afford this. My buddy had a falling out with his dad because his dad was like, you need to get your shit together and buy a house. And he's like, Dad, you have a high school diploma, mom never had to work, you were able to afford a house, a car, and two or three kids, I forget how many siblings he has. And he's like, now, I make, adjusted for inflation, three times as much of you as

• 29:32Speaker 00

  you, my wife, same deal, and we can rent a trailer in the middle of the desert if we want to save money for retirement, and barely any at that, and we have one kid. Those are real.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  They are real. We have had housing crises in this country before. There were localized ones, San Francisco had, big ones, Chicago and New York, and L.A. have all had episodes in history, but it was not national. 1870s, 1890s, 1940s, and today. These are the big ones. And we know the solution. The solution, every single one, was to build more freaking houses.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Not in my backyard.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. Not, not here, but somewhere else.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Somewhere else.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  No, you gotta build them everywhere. I'm stealing this from someone and I don't remember who. So I'm plagiarizing somebody.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  My entire career is based off of that, that principle.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Are you familiar with horseshoe political theory?

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, where the extreme left also looks like the extreme right.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they look like mirror images of each other. So instead of thinking about it from left to right, like it's a, like a line, it's more of like a horseshoe, where the, the two ends, the two bottom ends are the most radical groups, and they actually resemble each other more than their own coalitions.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  So an example that's near and dear to my heart, because I see it every day in my inbox. It's like, oh, you don't like Jews? I can't tell if you're an extreme leftist or an extreme rightist. I don't know. Are you a Nazi? No, how dare you? I'm a comm-- well, okay. I don't know. The uniform is looking pretty similar these days.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  So these, these two groups, and again, I'm stealing this idea from somebody. They're wonderful ways to figure out what the social problems are and terrible ways to solve them. And so we see people on both sides of the housing crisis, on the extremes, either not in my backyard people, right? Don't build anything, because I already won. Or we have the DSA, kind of like, we're gonna do rent control everywhere, and that way the landlords can never win. These are horrible solutions. The solution in every era was actually to build more houses. And then I'll hear people on both sides, populist and socialist, going, then the landlords win, then the builders win, then the developers win. I'm like, great, that's how we solved the last crisis. If you go to Long Island in 1900, it's farmland, all of it.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Long Island, wow, that makes sense, I suppose.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  And then farmland. And there's like people who would go out and like do excursions to Long Island for the day, and it was just farmland. And after World War II, after JFK runs, after this political momentum to say, we have to solve this, there's a while where they're telling people, the government's gonna solve it. We're gonna build the housing ourselves. Anybody who bet on that, terrible idea. Because you would have waited for that solution for a long time. Meanwhile, they let the developers build out Long Island. You go out to Queens, and all that stuff is built to solve the housing crisis.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  And yes, somebody got rich. I don't care.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  I'm happy for somebody to get rich solving the housing crisis, so your friend doesn't have to live in a trailer with two working spouses.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Exactly. Stapling carpet over a hole in the floor, because lumber costs money, and apparently ankles are a renewable resource. We'll be right back.

• 32:13Speaker 01

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• 33:42Speaker 00

  Hey, y'all, when you use our promo code, you're not just scoring a discount, you're giving the show a boost. I don't get commissions from sales or anything like that, but companies see that you use our codes, you're engaging with the ads, it means you're listening. That encourages them to keep supporting us. So if you're gonna sign up for something, buy something, I appreciate that. Go to the deals page, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You get a great deal, and you help keep the show going. We appreciate your support. Now, back to Joseph Moore. Skeptical Sunday, we debunk a topic. We did it on the housing crisis, and we were looking at how much it costs in just permitting and whatever administrative stuff to build in California. And I think the floor, and I'm going off memory here, was like $94,000. So you can't mow the lawn on the lot to lay down whatever concrete thing

• 34:26Speaker 00

  before you pay $94,000 in building plans and permits, whatever it is that you need to do, before you can do anything.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Which is more than a family makes. The median family makes $80,000.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  Again, the house I grew up in probably cost $94,000. Granted, it was the 80s, but like, that's what it was in Michigan. So now, you have to just have that laying around before you can pour your driveway, right? So then, if you're building a $200,000 house with those materials and labor, now it's a $300,000 house in California. So you have to have that. So that, that's why we read stuff like, oh, they built all this housing, and it turned out to be $800,000 per unit. And it's like, what happened? They must have embezzled the money. And it's like, no, you had to have each unit inspected, and each one was $94,000 to do that. So you have 50 units in here? Yeah, like, it's millions of dollars before you can even start digging a hole in the ground.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  This, by the way, is one of the areas that the southeast does so much better than the coast do. Like, we have permitting, but not nearly as strict. Yeah, but it's not, hey, it's just, in some towns, it's just like, sure, it looks good.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  We see that in Florida, right? Where it's like, hey, this building has a big crack in it, and it might fall down. Yeah, that looks pretty nasty. Anyway, you want, you feeling tacos, or what?

• 35:34Speaker 02

  But in the southeast, like, there are pipes coming out of the ground everywhere I live and everywhere I drive. People, there was a study done, I think last year, families that leave California for Texas are pocketing over $500 more a month, and their chances to own a house double, or nearly double.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  That completely makes sense to me. When people say like, oh, I'm leaving California for Texas, they expect me to get upset about it. I totally understand that. I would wanna own a home too. And if I was renting from somebody, I had no chance in California, or so it seemed. I would move to Texas as well, why not? So I completely understand that. And I think eventually, something's gotta give in California.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  I hope. I'm not from California, so I don't wanna speak about somebody else's, you know, town politics, as it were. But coming from a place, we build houses pretty fast. You can do it. This is not a technology problem.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's a great way to put it. And high rises going up and traffic getting bad, and people are protesting it, but they're protesting the traffic. They're not protesting the fact that their neighbors are gonna be able to afford something. So, yeah, we're gonna see more cars on the road, but it's kind of like, well, okay, but they're putting 500 new units here, that's probably kind of a big deal. And it's good for the economy too, I don't know. Again, it's all that NIMBY, not in my backyard, kind of thing. Anyway, we're a little bit off topic here. I would love for you to explain slow time and fast time without using investment jargon, if possible. I like these concepts, and I thought they were useful.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  There's actually math behind it, done by a famous mathematician called Benoit Mandelbrot, in which he looked at financial time, and he realized that time in finance speeds up and slows down. And that doesn't make much intuitive sense. So I wanted to try to make that make sense for everybody. And so, the way you think about it is, most of us have never thought about financial history a day in our lives. If we have, then it's probably because we read a bestselling book or watched a movie about some kind of crisis, right? It's always 1929, it's always 2008. Everything is changing everywhere all at once to go off the movie line, right? And some, a handful of smart people saw it coming. The rest of the dumb people got wiped out, and you don't wanna be those dumb people. Here's the problem with thinking about financial history that way.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Those books were never meant to tell you what to do with your money. They are written to entertain you. You're supposed to yell at the screen like, he's behind you! Subprime mortgage lender is behind you, run! And they're good at what they do. They're not there to teach you what to do with your money. So those fast time histories, when everything suddenly shifts, are rare. What most of your financial life will be lived in is what I call slow time. That is to say that there's a long lag between the financial decisions you make and the financial outcomes you get. We have these kind of aphorisms, like, you work, and you work, and you work, and nothing happens, and nothing happens, and then one day, everything breaks. Everything breaking is the fast time. And so, most of your work is done in slow time. And we have this, I think, illusion that's been created,

• 38:14Speaker 02

  and this is, we see young men getting sucked into like Calci and sports betting. It's like, I can get rich right now. Like, we're all like, we're hungry for fast time. Like, where's my fast time? It's not how you get rich. You work in slow time, and then in fast time, you get stress tested.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, reminds me of that bankruptcy thing, like, how do you go bankrupt really slowly, and then all at once?

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, Hemingway, yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Oh, that's Hemingway? Okay, that makes sense. I've, I've heard that a lot lately.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  You know what? Somebody in the comments section is gonna, actually, yeah, hey, what's going on?

• 38:38Speaker 00

  We will find out if you're wrong 100 times. I think a lot of that has, has to do with the visibility of the wins, right? So if you invested in Tesla in 2015, or bought Bitcoin in 2016--

• 38:54Speaker 00

  You did really well if you sat on that stuff, right? But what you didn't notice was the person who's invested in the Fidelity 500 index fund since 1998 and then just didn't do anything else for 15 years. And they're in the exact same place. They just had more slow time.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  And there's more of them. Yeah. The Bitcoin bros have a very loud microphone and always on video camera. And so they dominate the conversation and I have pretty strong opinions about Bitcoin.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  I was gonna ask you your opinions on Bitcoin because you studied financial history. Surely there's an analog somewhere.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  So let's segue into that. So I am indeed a crypto billionaire and there's not many crypto billionaires who will tell you that Bitcoin is, what I call Bitcoin is a Zeppelin, the old, the Goodyear blimp.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I never remember the hidden bird.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  So just to close the loop on this idea of fast time, slow time, there is this illusion that we get from media, from movies, from books, that most of how you get rich is in fast time. It's not. Most of the work you do is in slow time. Now, sometimes the rewards come all at once in a sudden burst.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Liquidity event, you sell your company or something.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Honestly, we have more deck of millionaires in America than we've ever had, even adjusted for inflation, and most of them are in careers you've never heard of.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. This is that Millionaire Next Door book, like somebody's auto workers.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, small business. I list out in the book like 25 lessons from history that you can kind of apply to like kind of stand the test of time. And the biggest one is solve somebody else's problems. Most of the people who actually make money, you see the crypto billionaire who started at the beginning, who bought at the bottom and just wrote it. You don't see all the people who sold early. You don't see all the people who bought at the top and it bottomed out on them. You don't see the people who borrowed money against their house to buy at the top and then it bottomed out and they lost everything. You just see the one lottery winner, whereas the people who worked in slow time in a carpet cleaning, and here's a good example, a guy who figured out that schools need, not just cleaning, but carpet like removal and installation, and they only have two months to get it done. And he's like, oh, and he got really good at two month turnaround, like whole school.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Guy sells his business for millions and millions of dollars. This is happening all across the country. And because you don't see it, because we don't write it up in the newspaper, because it doesn't go viral on TikTok, we don't think it exists.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  It's unsexy.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  And, but it exists all over the place. And I've met so many of these people. And that was part of what turned me from my like lefty humanities professor, talking about how capitalism is a scam. Like I kept having to do interviews with all these people who'd actually made an honest million dollars. It's like, this doesn't make sense. So on crypto, one of the things I talk about in the book is that we've actually had self-issued currency before. So we have this idea that crypto is the future. And my argument is it is not. It is the past. We have had self-issued, verifiable, not on-chain, obviously, because that's the blockchain technology, but we had verifiable, self-issued currency before. In my house at home, I have a $20 bank note from what's called the Canal Bank, and then I have a forgery. I have the same dollar bill.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Of a Canal Bank?

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, or like I think I have the Bank of Kentucky and then the forgery of the Bank of Kentucky or something like that. And people knew that there were like ways to verify currency, but until the Civil War, the US government didn't issue money.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  I did not know that.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. There were 10,000 different types of dollars issued in America from companies, from banks. You could get paid, you know, the old company store.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  So you get paid in Ford dollars or something?

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you would get paid by your company.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  You could get paid by individuals. My favorite example of this, there's a guy named William Wells Brown. He's enslaved in Kentucky. He runs away from slavery. He gets as far as Michigan, Monroe, Michigan, and he gets stuck because he knows nobody. He's on the run from the law. He's illegal, right? And a local landlord takes mercy on him and says, look, I'll help you out. I've got a building. You could open up a barber shop here. It's a fabulous idea. Has three problems. He has never cut hair in his life. He does not own scissors. He solves those two problems. Number one, he borrows scissors. Number two, he doesn't tell anybody. In fact, he paints a big sign out door that says fashionable hairdresser from New York. He's on the run from Kentucky, but nobody thinks to ask. So he puts it out there, but nobody can pay him because there's not enough money in early America.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  And so he goes to a printing shop and he says, will you print me money redeemable for a haircut at my shop? And then he goes around town and he pays for food with it. He pays for lodging with it. And since you only need one haircut and I only need one haircut, I'll pass it to you for what I, and within a year, it's circulating as valid currency. Then he gets enough better money. He trades it around and then he skips town one night, actually makes it to New York in freedom. Meanwhile, all the value of that money goes to zero because there's no haircut. There's nothing to redeem for it. This is normal. This was normal money in American history before the Civil War. So if you went to work and got paid in Dogecoin and I go to work and get paid in Fartcoin, real thing.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  Yes, it was real.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  All right. What's the first thing we're gonna do? Spend it. I'm not saving this. Yes, it could go up, right? But it could also go to zero.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  And we've seen that happen so many times that if you got lucky with Fartcoin, you were selling it that day.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Because you knew you had gotten lucky. And I think that's the illusion with Bitcoin is that it isn't just people who've gotten more lucky than the rest, right? But we'll come back to Bitcoin, but all this to say, the advice that people gave to each other was about money. Never save it. Your grandparents would sit grandkids on their knee, but now, young boy, whatever you would do with money, you don't save it now. Don't let me catch you saving money because it could go to zero. And so it was almost a hot potato game. You wanted to move it as fast as possible and you wanted to get it into land, into tools, into food, just something. Now, all of that shifts later. And so when people talk about crypto, I say they're trying to go back in time and relive this experience. We tried this before. It was terrible. Nobody wanted it. They couldn't think of a solution.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Okay, so to illustrate this, I issued my own Ethereum token called Billionarily, ticker B N L Y. And I went into the exchanges and I created a liquidity pool and I traded 100 something dollars of USDC dollar-backed coin for 100 of my coins. And then I went to the exchanges and started checking like refresh, refresh, refresh. And sure enough, pop, ticker B N L Y, market cap 1.1 billion, because I'd made a billion tokens. Now, I only traded a few hundred of them for a few hundred dollars, but because it assumed every one of these tokens is worth what that trade was, I was worth on the exchanges 1.1 billion dollars.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  This is the crypto billionaire thing?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  This is the crypto billionaire. Oh, no. This has gotten weirder since the book came out because people have gone in and traded on the token because I forgot about it bluntly. And people have traded it. Now I'm worth 10 billion. Now, it's not real, right? To the exact point of William Wells Brown's is that we're tokens. It's not real. It could go to zero tomorrow. So Bitcoin is gonna end up, I think, gonna be like a Zeppelin. We forget zeppelins came before airplanes. There were Zeppelin airliners. You could travel across Europe on Zeppelin airlines.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  I think it sounds really cool, except for the whole going down in flames part of it.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  That was the slight flying the ointment. And so H.G. Wells, who wrote The War of the Worlds, his follow-up war book to that is called War in the Air, in which zeppelins from Germany invade America and hand gliders oddly from, because the Wright brothers haven't gotten the plane yet. And so there's this technology that will let you fly. And if I had gone to that time and said, I don't think this thing's gonna work, they'd be like, are you crazy? The future is here. We're going to the moon on these things. And so Bitcoin has too many technological flaws to actually be the money of the future. The technology, the on-chain technology may end up operating like Euro dollars, that is to say like it's backed by the US dollar, but it's not gonna be the money of the future.

• 46:10Speaker 00

  The whole chain thing, this has been said a million times, the blockchain just solves a problem that doesn't exist yet, or it's a solution looking for a problem, I think is how people phrase it. And that makes sense. I have a bunch of Bitcoin. I shouldn't say a bunch. I have some Bitcoin. And on the rare occasion that I can use it for something, it's often to send my brother money because he's in Germany and I don't want to pay wise transaction fees or whatever it is. So I'll send him some of that and it's like $60. This is gonna take six hours, bro. I'm sorry. Because if I do it fast, it's gonna cost me 60 bucks. And then it's like you're holding, you're clenching up all your sphincters to make sure that it actually arrived because God forbid you mistyped one of those 87 characters. You left a space in there somewhere in the software and you got your hardware wallet that you gotta dig out and push the buttons and remember your pins and all that stuff.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  And it's like, yeah, maybe I'll just wire the money next time.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  If all of the world's transactions had to happen with that kind of lag and that kind of friction, it's not gonna work.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  That would be like you're paying with a credit card, except you have to draw a really good image of the credit card by hand in order to make the payment. That's what it's like to me.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  So people who've actually used it understand this now in a way that it sounded very like futuristic a decade ago.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  The ledger has every transaction.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh my goodness, yeah. But now that people have actually seen it, I don't think this cannot be the technology that solves the problems of future money. Now, if you live in Ecuador or Zimbabwe, the chance to trade in a dollar-backed coin is actually a step up because now You know, sure, inflation is going to lose 2, 3, 4% of its value, but it's going to have that value this time next week. And you don't know that about Bitcoin and you don't know that about a lot of the other kind of speculative tokens. But if it's a dollar-backed coin, in the same way we trade with Eurodollars all the time, there's more dollar-backed liabilities outside of the US than inside of the US.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  So let's take a listener who wants financial independence. And I guess that is a fuzzy definition, but I think most people can imagine what it means. What do they need to start evaluating or looking at? Because I think a lot of folks, they're looking for the fast time win on Kalshi or was Polymarket or whatever suckers play that they decide to go for or lottery, whatever the modern day lottery ticket is, or the next big stock pick or the crypto thing, right? They're looking for the fast time win. What should they be paying attention to?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  So if you want financial independence, the first thing to know is it's actually not a new phenomenon. Like, I can find people who are what we call financially independent, like, pretty much every era. Like, there were generally like one person per big town who would at least have achieved that. There's a guy named Sylvester Judd, I mentioned him in the book. Like, he's born the year the constitutional convention is ratified. He dies before the Civil War. He lives all of Annabelle of America. He works for half of it because he built a printing business. He sold it. He had enough. He wasn't wildly wealthy. He just had enough. And so he cashed out. But what's happened is people have started to sell you the dream of financial independence. And that's very different. So Thoreau goes out in the woods and he builds a cabin like a man and Emerson travels around Europe and writes essays about having real meaning in your life and not letting work take over. And there's a guy that says a bestselling book in the 1850s or 60s called 10 Acres Enough.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  It's like, I'm getting out of town. I've got 10 little acres. I grow strawberries and have a beautiful life. And then in the 1950s, 60s, there's this couple, Helen and Scott, and nearing, the New York Times just loves them. They're amazing. They found the way back to Thoreau's Walden Pond. They said they work four hours a day. It's like the original four-hour work week.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Oh, I was gonna say, that sounds quite familiar.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  It's the four-hour work day was the very first version. And people like flock to Vermont where they're living on this maple farm to learn how to live the dreamy life. All right, so let's go back over those. Thoreau's mom was bringing him food so he would not starve. Emerson's wife died. She left a trust fund. He sued her parents. The day he won the trust fund, he quit his job and traveled around Europe to talk about not working.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  The guy with 10 acres, that was a bestselling, went through tin printings. It's still in print today, that book. That guy was a real estate agent in New Jersey selling farmland. And the nearings were worse. They had hidden from everyone that they'd both received million-dollar inheritances. And they were living on the money.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  And this is like in the 60s?

• 50:00Speaker 02

  50s, 60s, 70s, even the 70s. So like, people are flocking to Vermont, start starve because they can't figure out how to work four hours a day on a farm and like make it work. Oh, well, they hid something. And so what I see is like this FIRE movement, financial independence retire early, that is real. You actually, it's a math equation. You can live it.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  I know some of these people. Whenever I rent a car on Turo, for example, you know that app where you can rent someone's car? You meet the person and you're like, oh, hey, what are you doing? And then back when people wanted to find out who you were, now they leave the car parked somewhere. But back then, it was like, oh, hey, come on in. Let's talk for a minute so I can.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Before I give you my car.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  Before I give you my Tesla. And there was one guy and he had six roommates and he was renting his car when he didn't need it, which is almost every day. And he worked remotely most of the time when he can negotiate it. And then he also, he was working on delivery things, but he did it on a scooter. So it was cheaper. And this guy had, it was like, this guy had his whole life dialed in and his plan was to be done by, I don't know, 40 or something like that. But I felt kind of bad for him because he was like one head cold away from not being able to retire, right?

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Everything would fall off. Yeah. I call it the CrossFit of personal finance.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  It's like a small group of like weirdly dedicated people who are highly likely to get injured, but if they stick with it, will indeed be fit at a level most of us will never experience. It's out there. It's a thing. You can do it. It's been happening since the revolution, right? We've had people doing this. But the question is, is that really the way you want to live a life? But in terms of the average person who's like trying to decide, because the average person doesn't want that, in the same way, the average person doesn't really want, I'd love the body of CrossFit. I don't want to go through all that.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. You don't want to have your palms literally ripping open from doing 100 pull-ups and things like that. Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  And I don't want the financial version of that in my life. At the end of the day, the way you get ahead is by solving someone else's problems. The bigger problem, the bigger scale, the better. So if I walk into Barnes and Noble, go to the personal finance section, I close my eyes, reach up, there's a 9 in 10 chance, I can tell you what it's going to say. It's going to say, don't buy expensive things. Your lattes and your meals out.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Avocado toast.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, your avocado toast is the reason you don't own a home. And expenses less than your income. And the problem is you can say all that in about a page and a half. And so the other.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  But I need a whole book.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. The other 198 pages are like inspirational stories about doing the basic math. Okay, so here's the issue with that is, that's about you and your problems. Solving your problems will keep you from going broke. It will not make you wealthy. You get wealthy solving other people's problems. You get wealthy taking risks that other people aren't willing to take. We go back to, we were talking about immigrants. We were talking about people willing to move, right? You get taking the risks. You get wealthy going where the opportunity is, marrying well, you get wealthy believing you can get ahead.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  I like that strategy, marrying a rich person.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Marrying up. This is George Washington. This is one of the few rich, famous people I have in the book is George Washington. Because if George Washington doesn't marry into money, we'd, none of us know who he is.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Really?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  I've never heard this before. So Martha Washington was just loaded.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  She was married to a rich guy. He died.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  And she was like the most eligible single woman in Virginia, hugely wealthy. He's like upper middle class, but he's tall and he's got this kind of military background.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  He's kind of a badass.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, he's got kind of a swagger.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Got bad boy swagger.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  But he's not the only guy. He finally gets a date with her. He gets diarrhea the night before the date.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Man.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And so.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  Relatable.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. We know this story, some journal injuries. He is dying, but he's, I gotta get on that horse and go on that date. And apparently he pulled it together because then she sent a letter, which was basically like, why don't you come spend the night letter? So it was like a Netflix and chill text.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Slide into the DMs.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, DMs.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  Netflix and chill.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  1740 style. But yeah, he pulled it off.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Netflix and quill.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  So that was good.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Kinda, it doesn't make sense.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  We're moving into dad joke territory. But this is how Washington is marrying up. Now, there's also a chapter in the book about like marrying well. So it's not just marrying into money.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  You wrote a chapter about this?

• 53:46Speaker 02

  About marriage, yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  But marrying well now means somebody with, in fact, this is a perfect segue to what we were talking about earlier. Now it means somebody who's not going to maybe either spend all your money or have reckless financial habits and has similar values. Tell me about this. Tell me what you think about this.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  You do not pick the family you start with. So the family you start is one of the two biggest financial decisions in your life's control. What do you pick for your career? Who do you pick to be with? And that's because over and over again throughout history, marriage is one of the largest predictors of financial success or failure. In the 1840s, there was this card game. I've got kids, like, you know, parents will like do anything it takes, teach their kids a lesson and like, so in the 1840s, they had this card game that parents would play with their kids. And it was like, pick a spouse. And so you had to like pick traits out of the card deck, figure out what was the right kind of combo to win the game with the best spouse.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  1840s spouse, good at sewing, like great apple pie baking skills.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  And the point of the game is to have your kids go, okay, well, I've got the bad breath card, but I've also got the good work ethic card. So maybe I can win the game. And so I could teach these, because in the same way that Zach Galifianakis in The Hangover or Shrek's Donkey are the kind of bumbling sidekicks of our cinema, in the novels of that era, the bumbling sidekick was always somebody who married for love instead of thinking it through.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  That was the dumb, oh, you know who this character is. He would always go off on some wild tangents. They'd fallen in love, only to find out this person has no work ethic, they don't come from, and they have no connections. So the goal is to teach your kids to marry someone, it's not like love is off to the side and not a factor, but to understand like, hey, you're going to run a small nonprofit at the dinner table and you better be good at running this thing. And you better be with somebody who wants to run it well, too. And believe it or not, to this day, marriage is actually becoming more important as a predictor of financial success or failure than it used to be because less and less people are getting married. So the less people we see getting married, the bigger of a predictor of financial success it is. Capitalism is a team sport and you can just win more games on two-player mode.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  And so if we go to the statistics on this, marriage confounds today, pretty much everything you can throw at it for financial importance. Same-sex couples earn more than same-sex singles. Okay? Married black men earn more than single white men. Married women at 55 earn almost twice what single women at 55 make. No matter what you throw at marriage.

• 56:14Speaker 00

  Are you talking about household income or are you talking about that?

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Household income and then divided out as the individual.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Oh, I see.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, the individual will earn more.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  And so, because, and think about this, actually makes intuitive sense when you think about it, especially in a two-career, we have this myth, women used to not work. You know, women used to work all the time, including for money. But I'll give you a example from my own life. Like, I've had the number of times my wife has called from work, is like, I gotta stay late. Okay, I'll get the kids. Now, they may not eat the food you would have approved.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  It's Chef Boyardee tonight, boys.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  We're going to Chipotle. Like, I got three moves and Chipotle, Chick-fil-A and, you know, pizza.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  It could be worse. I feel like that's not even bad parenting at this point.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, at least it's chicken.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  The crap you and I probably ate as a kid?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  I don't even know if it's legal to make that stuff.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  No, I'm not sure it was food. And so, but okay, fine, you've got a career-defining moment and we have lots of them. Anybody who's built a career knows it's slow time. It's lots of little moments that build and build. And so the times that other people couldn't make that choice to stay late because she had a partner, and the same for me. And so that ability to have somebody on the other end of that career who helps you take slack out of the line matters more today than ever has before.

• 57:18Speaker 00

  George Washington rode through diarrhea to marry rich. We salute the founding father of securing the bag. We'll be right back.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  If you liked this episode of the show, I invite you to do what smart and considerate and soon to be rich listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. They make the show possible. All of our sponsors are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if you can't find the code or something's not working for you, email us, [email protected]. We're happy to surface those for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Joseph Moore.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Less people are getting married, but are they not making up those benefits elsewhere? Like, my cousin, he's not married. They don't want to get married. They don't want to have kids, but they live in the same house and they pool their money. Is that messing with the equation a little bit because they're basically kind of married, except not on paper? I don't really know how that would work.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  So, there's some good research on this, and I'm not going to claim to be the domain expert, but I will tell you, there's at least one study that kind of compared couples who cohabitate with couples who are married and couples who are married do better financially.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  The most interesting one, though, and I think this is actually what's underlying that, and I suspect if you went back and broke all this down by this one factor, this is what you would find. Married couples who keep completely separate accounts do worse financially than couples who keep joint accounts. And so, it's more about the joining forces and the ability to like, basically monitor each other. Like, I mean, some people say, "How dare you monitor..." But like-

• 58:40Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I need that. My, I have no idea how much money I have. My wife controls all of it, and thank God for that.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yes, and which, by the way, is an old practice. I can find that in the 1700s. Oh, yeah, I have a woman in the book named Elizabeth Meredith, and like, she gets married and finds out her husband's really good worker, terrible businessman, and she has to take over all of it and make it work, and they end up very successful. Teddy Roosevelt's wife took the checkbook away because he would just invest in crazy stuff that would go to zero. And like, just knowing that there's somebody there who will ask, "Why did you spend that on that thing?"

• 59:08Speaker 00

  Wow, is that relatable. Because she reconciles all the credit card statements. "I can buy whatever I want." Don't get me wrong. She doesn't say like, "How dare you." But do I think twice before I spend $300 on something that I know she's going to go, "You bought that? Are you stupid? You're never going to use that." That dialogue happens in my head before I click "purchase," and I go, "Yeah, maybe I didn't need the monkey-shaped kettlebell that I already have the same weight of in the gym, but that one looks cool." Because she's going to laugh at me. "I just saved $300. Yeah, but if it was my own account? Where did this come from? Oh, I don't know. I got it for free, maybe. I can't remember."

• 59:43Speaker 02

  We forget how involved, like, so, I make the argument in the book that if I go back to the 1800s, working-class marriages, we have this illusion, "Oh, women were stay-at-home moms." For most Americans, we're not middle-class. They certainly were not stay-at-home moms in any traditional sense.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Is it kind of a sitcom trope or something?

• 59:59Speaker 02

  We locked into a cultural place that we have this idea of how it happened. You go into the actual history, and women are earning what, most of what we would call today, side hustle income, kind of 1099-style, like, independent contractor kind of work. Women are creating income for the family, and we find over and over, for working-class families, they would survive on the husband's money, and they would thrive from the wife's money. She was what would get them ahead. She was what would pay off the house. Women were the number-one reason that families were to pay off the house, is they would work the side hustles that paid down the mortgage.

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  That's really interesting.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Okay. Today, it's actually the middle and upper-middle-class marriages that look like that. Two people both earning, more or less mathematically living on one and using the other one to get ahead, and it's actually working-class families that are starting to imitate this idea of one spouse works and one spouse stays at home, and those are the families that are falling behind.

• 1:00:46Speaker 00

  That's really interesting, because we have an idea that that's how you're supposed to be, maybe-

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  There's a lot that goes into it. One of its mate selection, right? The people who are hardworking and ambitious, they tend to couple together, right? And there's a lot that goes into that, that I'm not going to pretend to be the expert on, but it is happening. And the rewards for it are compounding to those couples who, again, same-sex, doesn't matter. This, by the way, confounds everything. Race, everything.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  That's quite fascinating. I did not know that. So, you argue as well in the book that supposedly timeless financial advice, it actually changes constantly, and it's often a trailing indicator of whatever worked recently. So, when I was growing up, and I guess I would still say so now, "Hey, take a X percentage of your pre-tax earnings and put that in index funds. And if you want to rent, you can rent now." Like, that's revolutionary advice. You don't have to buy a home. I guess, post-2008, that narrative changed a little bit. But you got to make sure you're investing. You should be buying index funds. Don't try to pick stocks. That's for actual experts, and even they don't do it that well. And you just think, "Oh, that's what smart people have done for the last several hundred years. They just bought index funds." But that's not really true at all.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  What always worked was always changing, and one of the lessons that we learned from history is like, you actually have to be adaptable, and you have to be able to recognize what is changing in your own lifetime. So, to that exact point, for one thing, you couldn't buy an index fund, but we've decided that compound interest is how everyone always got ahead. I'm like, "No, it is not. Absolutely." It's, compound interest is like the pornography logic of the personal finance world. It's, "Ooh, how big can it get?" Right? Like, and I can just sit here and watch it. It grows bigger and bigger. Passive income, and it just wants you to have it. You don't have to work for it. That is the way it's portrayed. It's like, it just grows, and you don't have to do anything for it. Okay, here's the reality. You couldn't buy a stock index until about, maybe, our parents' lifetime. If you wanted to buy an index, you had to go buy 100 shares

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  of all the stocks in that index, which would have cost $1 million back then. That's like $12 to $20 million today. So, if you wanted to buy index funds and compound to wealth, you already had to be wealthy. You had to already have the money to do it. Most Americans didn't buy in the stock market. There's plenty of times when 1% to 2% of Americans owned stocks.

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  How long ago was that?

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  Oh, very recent. I mean, in the late 1800s, it's 1% to 2% of Americans owned stocks. There's a brief blip in the 20s. People got all excited about that. But if I go to 1912, maybe 3% to 5% of Americans owned stocks. Don't put me in that exact number, it's a single digit.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  What is it now?

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  It's right around 60%.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  That's so much lower than I thought.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, but most of that's in retirement funds.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Wow. I thought, okay, everybody has stocks, if not just through retirement funds, and most people probably have something outside of that. My guess would have been like 95%.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  No, it's about 60.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  It's in the 60s. It's never hit 70 in American history.

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  So, I'm afraid they answered this question. Does that mean most people don't have any investments at all?

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  Especially amongst the working class. There's a lot of folks who-

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  Just don't have any investments?

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  Holy smokes.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  And then there are, there's a subset who like heavily, say, real estate or something, don't own stocks for that reason.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Sure, sure. Okay, fine.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  That doesn't mean that the other 40% are not investing in anything, but this is about as high as we've ever been.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  That is terrifying. So, I have a buddy that I grew up with. I had dinner with him the other night, and he told me that my dad had told him, since he didn't learn anything about finances as a kid, to start a Roth IRA. This is probably 2010. So, he did it. He put whatever it was, 400 bucks a month into this thing, and he's like, "You got to thank your dad. That thing has doubled. It's my biggest cash hole, it's my biggest position, whatever it is, that I have." Because he has a union job, and he has a pension, and he's got some other thing inside the union that is also pension-esque. I don't even know what it is. And so, he's like, "I don't really need this." And my dad was like, "Well, I had a pension in Ford, and trust me, I think you're going to want this."

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. This idea, the pension, is like, "Oh, we're pining for the age of the pension." Yeah. Ask the people who worked at Studebaker how that went, because that went away. This got-

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  That's right. That's a car company from the 40s.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was a competitor to the Chevrolet. Yeah, it was like, it used to be Ford, Chevy, Buick, Studebaker, and there's a reason nobody in your audience knows what Studebaker is, and they were in South Bend, Indiana. But there's this idea, that's how people got ahead. They did not get ahead. Compounding, for one thing, you need two things for compounding to work. One, you need a paper investment you can reinvest, which we just said they didn't have. And the other thing you need is time. 99% of Warren Buffett's wealth is from after his 60th birthday. That's a year most Americans never lived to see. Life expectancy in the Old West was 45 for males. The time that it takes to compound, you didn't have. But now, I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm just saying it's a recent phenomenon, and it's been glorified, and everybody gets what I call the chart. The first time you ever sit with a financial advisor, they'll slide you the chart and expect it to be wild.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  And the dates change, but the one I saw was 1929. They showed me this chart. It's like, $10,000 invested in 1929. At the height before the Great Depression, reinvesting all dividends would today be worth $10 million. And they expect me to think, "Whoa." And what I thought was, houses did not cost $10,000 in 1929. And you mean to tell me, this person invested their life savings, lost 80% in the Depression, fought Nazis, feared nuclear holocaust, saw double-digit inflation, cried when Ross and Rachel got back together, never once touched that money?

• 1:05:49Speaker 00

  And also is 135 years old.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. You too can be wealthy by your 100th birthday. And I was like, "This is not real life." And so, I think the thing about what's happened in our lifetime is we've collapsed retirement savings and wealth building into one thing, and it's worked pretty dang well. Didn't work before. It doesn't mean it's always going to work going forward, but it's worked well for our life. So, like, reinvesting all dividends, there's the other part of this that you have to do. Where are the dividends now? They're gone. From the Washington administration, George Washington, they're wearing wigs to work. And to Michael Jackson's Thriller album, which I guess, in a way-

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  Still wearing wigs to work.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, depending on your industry. Dividends were 90-something percent of returns, right? The company made money. You owned the stock. You got a dividend. Today, the S&P 500's dividend is roughly 1%, and it's very little of what your return is. It's all been, gone into price appreciation. So, prices in stocks didn't go up for most of history. No, adjusted for inflation, prices were basically the same 100 years after the next 100 years.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  You just took a little check every time they made money.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  But then in the 1980s, all these tax law changes, and they're like, "You know what? It makes more sense for us to take this. Instead of handing you a check, which you'll get taxed on, let's just put it back in the company and grow the company." And so, that means the stock value goes up.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  Wow, I didn't realize that was new.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's brand, it's happened in our life, in your, since we've been alive. So, what your grandpa bought with a stock was a share of future profits at today's prices.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  What you and I are buying is a share of future buyers at today's prices, because the only way you and I actually get the return is by selling it to someone else at the higher price.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  That's a change. Now, not saying it's a bad change. It may work better, but it's a change. Index funds-

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  I should have known this years ago, but I was like, "Why, whenever I log into the bank platform, I have $16.87 or like $42 if it's been a couple of months?" And I'm like, "What the hell is that?" So, I called the customer support guy, and I was like, "What the hell is that?" And he's like, "Oh, you have 68 shares of Coca-Cola or something like that. I can't even remember what it is." And he's like, "And they pay you a dividend, and it just sits there." And I'm like, "All I do is I buy index funds with it." He's like, "You can automate that." I had to set up a couple clicks later, and I was just like, "Oh." And I told my dad, and he's like, "I have failed as a parent." He's like, "You don't know what a dividend is, you moron?"

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  [laughing]

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Give me a break.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  He sent the boy to law school, and I'm like, "Yeah, you know what a dividend is."

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  Finance lawyer, huh? Great. Yeah, here's a dividend. Let me Google this for you, knucklehead. So, tell me about index.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  So, index funds were supposed to be an ant on the back of an elephant, right? It's getting a free ride. There's this huge market. All you got to do is buy all of it. Now, you actually can, which is a great invention. The shift that's happening in our lifetime that will probably be in our kids' lifetime is it's now not an ant on an elephant, it's an ant army biting the elephant's ass and the elephant's starting to run uphill. But like, one of the reasons we keep having the stock market that goes up and up, we would normally expect this thing to have gone down. Jeremy Grant's been talking about an everything bubble for now like two decades and the damn thing won't pop.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  There's been a housing bubble since, what, 2008, nine or whatever?

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And so, part of it is, every single Friday, when everybody gets paid in America, billions of dollars flow into Wall Street to buy more index funds. And that means, for the index funds, there has to be a next marginal buyer, and there's always a next marginal buyer. And so, the index fund revolution is starting to affect, how much, it's hard to tell, why this stock market continues to go up, is that there's constantly more buyers than there are sellers. How long can that go on? I don't know. But I will tell you this, the guy who invented the index fund, Bogle, said that if it ever hit a threshold, the market would go crazy. Because if the whole market is index fund, there's no way to buy when somebody needs to sell. So, the value of studying history, it's like you could start to see change, and you look for change, and you wonder, okay, what is the effect of that

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  change? Now, hold on to your index funds. Don't go rush up and sell your index funds, that'd be a bad idea. But I'm saying, that's the change that's occurred in our lifetime. That everybody tells us, this is the way it always worked. No, it didn't. It's really new.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  So, on the flip side of that, what did Americans once consider responsible financial behavior that now we would consider insane? You had one really good one, which is, don't save money, it's gonna be worth nothing tomorrow, so go spend it as fast as possible. That's crazy, right? I've never heard that before. Is there anything else?

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  That's one of the ones I always go to, is just the idea that if my dad walked in and said, now, kids, my grandkids, like, well, y'all don't save money, but dad lay off the sauce. But, so I'll tell you one that was old, it's coming back, is, we're in a housing shortage, as we talked about before, and one of the primary mortgage payoff strategies of the 1800s, and basically every time there was a housing shortage, was renting out rooms in your house. So, that Airbnb phenomenon, that was actually an immigrant strategy called taking on borders. Airbnb just put it online. And we think, oh, no, dad gummit, I wanna have golly gee whiz era, when it's 1950, and we all have our single family house with a picket fence. I'm like, okay, that was great for the 50s. But for most of history, those working-class families, their financial advice, and it's in multiple languages, I can find this in like, Italian and Polish, it's, get here, get a house with

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  a down payment, rent every room in the house out as fast as you can, but this is where the women are actually managing this, they're the ones paying off the house, and you use that money to pay off the mortgage. I tell the story in the book of a beat cop in New York, in the 1890s, his name's John Taylor and his wife, Agnes, he buys a brownstone on Waverly Place. I went and looked it up. Today, it's worth $10 million. Now, it wasn't 10 million, but it was still not cheap then.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  It's funny, I know exactly where that is.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  South Street, yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  This is like, upper echelon of New York today. It was a nice area then, and they buy it, Agnes immediately rents every room in that place out, they live there for eight years with renters, which nobody wants to do. You don't wanna do it, neither did they. Eight years later, they sell the thing, go buy their own house, and don't have to have renters ever again. That's how a New York beat cop and his wife got on the property ladder.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  That's quite interesting. There's a lot of, you mentioned a lot of books and things like that. The guru phenomenon has been interesting over time. One book that's still cropping up in, I don't know, stupid podcasts, I guess, just for life of a better trip, Napoleon Hill, right? And then you read up on that, and you find out he was just like a fraudster, kind of scammer.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Complete con artist.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Let's talk about this, because I think there's a lot of gurus in the financial space. There's also really good people, like, well, you're talking about it, you know Ramit Sethi? Yeah, so he's a friend of mine.

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  I don't know him, I know his work here.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  But he's, hey, it's not your avocado toast, and you should also spend money so that you live a nice life, and not just save everything. And so, he's also kind of anti-fire, because he's like, come on, guys, you can't order DoorDash, because it's gonna break your entire lifestyle. But when I think gurus, I think, yeah, Napoleon Hill and these other sort of, I'm afraid to say anybody who's alive right now, there's other ones that are out there. I won't say this person is a fraud, but I will say, I don't like their advice. Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And I remember, this was like, if you didn't read that, you're just irresponsible.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Hell, dear.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  You're 22, you haven't read Rich Dad, Poor Dad? And I read it, and I went, I don't know about this. And then, 10 years later, he's got a mixed reputation.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  So, the, my idea on gurus, I'm one of the few people who will stand up and defend gurus. And the reason I defend them is this, finance professors have equations that work very well on a spreadsheet, and the moment they have to leave the page, start to fall apart. I've yet to see a finance equation that models a midlife crisis, or a child with special needs. What gurus offer is a series of basic, generally common sense principles, that if you apply them over and over, tend to work more than they don't. Because gurus understand that Super Bowl ads work, birthday sex leads to baby number three, like, they understand you're living in a world that's constantly changing, and you've gotta adapt to it. And so, trying to boil it down to principles people can understand. And I think

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  what most people take away from gurus, is not always all the things gurus are saying and selling. Most people read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and if you ask the typical person who read it five years ago, what they learned from it, they'll have to think.

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  I don't remember a thing.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they'll generally say, assets are things that make you money, not cost you money. That's really all people really took away from Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And that's enough. If you actually get that idea, that's good. Now, what I tell people is like, don't buy their seminars and go to their training.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  That's what I'm talking about, yeah.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  If you read their books, though, and you take a few common sense principles away that you can apply in real time, probably pretty useful. The best example of this is Dave Ramsey, who people have very strong opinions about. He's this anti-debt guru from Tennessee, who's basically famous for yelling, sell the car! You have no business owning that, sell the car!

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  And he's built a huge financial empire, people love to hate on him. I can find anti-Dave Ramsey papers in every area of academia. Sociology, history, economics, finance, all of them have something to hate about Dave Ramsey. Here's the problem with that. Dave Ramsey has, statistically speaking, done more provable good for the American economy than probably most finance equations and professors combined. So, there's this German economist, doesn't have a dog in the fight, I think he was just looking for a paper, and he had the idea to overlay credit card spending data with wherever the Dave Ramsey show showed up in a new metropolitan area, which is an AM radio station. And sure enough, as soon as that Ramsey show showed up, the spending went down like 1.3%. That sounds small, but like...

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  It's like billions of dollars.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, reduce credit card spending by 1%. You saved a lot of money in the American economy. Okay, correlation, causation, so this guy comes up with this ingenious way to prove it, AM radio waves do not go through mountains. And on the other side of mountains that were blocking the signal, the credit card data stayed, the spending stayed.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Oh, that's so interesting. Wow.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  So, I did the math, and that means, Dave Ramsey, over the course of his life, has saved the American economy the GDP of a mid-sized nation-state.

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  By yelling, sell the car!

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Sell the car, yeah.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  So, there's something people are taking away from this that is actually useful. Now, Napoleon Hill is an absolute fraudster, he's on the run from the law for securities fraud, telling people to believe that you can. But now, here's the one thing I will say in defense of Napoleon Hill, who is an absolute fraud. The man never met any of the famous people he claims to interview, all of the quotes are made up, are found in the newspaper, nothing about that book is true, with this one exception. Optimism is over-rewarded to the American economy. And so, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is Elizabeth Warren's brainchild, right? So, this is not something to the right, this is the leftward-leaning part of the American government. The CFPB did a study, actually did two studies, in which they found, I think to their own surprise, that the number one predictor of financial

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  wellness was a positive attitude combined with a habit of saving. If you just believed you could get ahead, and you took some common sense steps, you did better than a whole lot of other things that they thought they would find.

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  That's, that was my entire investment strategy for 20 years. I'll be fine, I just need to save a little bit.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  My dad told me to do that. The end.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's what people took away from Napoleon Hill, is believe in yourself, believe you can go achieve, and take the risk. And if you take risks in the American economy, and you're optimistic, I saw a quote the other day, I intend to steal it for the rest of my life, pessimists sound smart and optimists live in big houses.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  I like that. That's great. I think when I say guru, I'm thinking more Napoleon Hill than Dave Ramsey. I don't know much about Dave Ramsey, but my dad was always listening to Money Talk on AM radio. I don't even know who that host is. I can still hear his voice in my head, though, because I have hours of driving up north with, buy Fidelity contrafund, buy Vanguard, Vanguard, whatever. And like, that was, every caller, the answer was, buy Vanguard funds, buy Fidelity funds, make sure you're on the gold tier or whatever, so they don't charge you transaction fees. That was it. And I remember that from when I was like 11 years old, and I was like, Dad, what is this? He's like, yeah, it's about investing. And it was always the same thing. But if you hear a thousand phone calls answered with, buy Vanguard, buy Fidelity.

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  You start to think, I know what to do, yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  Maybe this actually works. And I remember thinking, when I was older, I was like, that guy must've gotten paid so much by Fidelity or Vanguard. But I don't know if that's even true. I think it was actually just a good place to park your money. He would tell young people how they would end up with more money later. He would basically do the radio version of sliding the chart over, right? Hey, if we go up 5% every year, conservatively, then you're gonna have this much, and you can afford to retire. Because nobody was doing that math, and we were younger. My dad was, but I thought everyone's dad was doing that? And then I look at my friends now, and they're like, oh, I'm starting to invest, what are you investing in? I'm like, bro, I'm 46, you gotta be maybe 43? Tell me you're not starting now.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  I would be willing to bet, I don't know if you could ask your dad this, but like,

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  I would suspect you're conscious. I'm turning this on while he's in the car. I know he's not

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  gonna understand all of it, right? It's like, are we gonna play cards tonight? I don't know. We gonna play the hot or not game for the 1840s? Like, yeah, we're gonna teach lessons here.

• 1:17:58Speaker 00

  Kat's giving my dad a lot of credit. He also played Neil Diamond.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Did you know Sweet Caroline?

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  It was the Peaches album. Is that on there? I can't remember. I just remember he got so mad because I recorded over it. And my mom was like, thank you. I hate that album. Can't hear it anymore. What the heck were we talking about? Right. Investing in. Yeah, I just kind of thought everybody knew that stuff. And it turns out, even my own family, my extended family, didn't do that. My dad was forcing them. You have to put this money somewhere. And I remember him even recently being like, I'm so pissed. I just found out I had $300,000 in a checking account for 25 years. And he's like, God damn it. You can just see his face melting. Because they didn't earn any interest on that money. That was just terrible. You can tell it like physically pains him to see that.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  So I think the ones that you were listening to on the radio show in Michigan, and there's, by the way, there's others. I think, I personally, the single best guru in America today has got him Clark Howard out of Atlanta, who was on CNN forever.

• 1:18:52Speaker 00

  He used to be on Podcast One.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And his advice is probably a bar none across the board, the best consistent advice offered, if anybody's interested. He's towards the end of his career, but he is a great guy. But like, all this to say, they think when you hear gurus, somebody said, we call them gurus because charlatan is so hard to spell. But like, it's these TikTok bros. They're like, let me tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna sell this watch. And I'm gonna like, whatever.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  No, like, that's a Darwinian nature to this, which is, the people who follow dumb advice tend to go broke. But the people who follow decent advice that you can digest and understand, and that you can act on, and it's optimistic, and it says you can make a difference and change in the world for your own life and your own betterment, those people tend to go ahead, which tends to me, that's why a lot of the big gurus are older. Because the people have been following these people for decades, and it's been working for decades. And that's why they're still on the channel.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  I give Rameed a lot of credit because he's a 45 year old or whatever.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  He's been doing that for, since he was in his twenties at Stanford.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  He was one of the first guests on my old show, and it was like 2008. I've known for almost 20 years. And he was doing it before that. That was when he had his book. Before that, he was running a class at Stanford that as, by his own admission, nobody showed up to because they weren't interested in hearing how to manage their money. We call them gurus because charlatan is hard to spell and TikTok dipshit is bad for SEO. We'll be right back.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  Hey, y'all, check out our newsletter if you haven't done so already. It's a two minute read on most Wednesdays. It'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, psychology, and/or relationships. It is a really good companion to the show. JordanHarbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Now for the rest of my conversation with Joseph Moore.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  When I talk about investing, I do get emails that, you're talking about this from a privileged position. You had education from your dad. You got lucky early in that you were listening to Money Talk AM radio, which is true. That is lucky. Fortunate that I happened to be born with a dad who loves boring AM radio shows and made me listen to them, right? I had no choice. Couldn't afford a Walkman. Should have invested that money and bought a Walkman so I could listen to something else besides Neil Diamond and AM radio. But they're not wrong about that, right? Not everybody has money to invest. So what do you say to somebody who's like, great, I'm barely making it. Thanks for the investment talk, you jerks. What do we do for somebody like that?

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  Thanks for bragging live and on the air.

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  While I sit here and suffer on my way to work. I would say that there's 300 years of people who showed up with the wind blowing straight in their face, who nonetheless believed they could get ahead, and understood that it wouldn't always be easy, and took the steps. And upward mobility in the United States in every era was higher than it was everywhere else on the face of the planet. By the way, still true today. People will occasionally point out some small European country, and be like, oh, yeah, well, upward mobility is slightly higher over here. I'm like, that's the size of Phoenix, Arizona.

• 1:21:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, Liechtenstein or something.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And someone said Isle of Man. I was like, Isle of Man's not a real country, but okay.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a territory of the UK.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's got like 90,000 people or something. But for a large nation, upward mobility in America is incredible. There is an opportunity for you. But just like the people who came before you, you are going to have to do some things that will not be comfortable to do. Amalgamating a quote from a bunch of different people who've said the same idea over and over, you can't expect to live a life greater than anyone else's if you're not willing to do what other people aren't willing to do. And so you probably will have to take steps you do not want to take to get where very few people actually end up getting to go. And so I think if you're willing to do what it takes, it's easier here than it is anywhere else. And it's easier now than it was for your great grandparents. I promise you, if I take you and you're 30, you'd rather be 30 today than any win that

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  I can take you to. Like, oh, you want to be 30, win a new mortgage? 1981, mortgage rates are like 16, 17, 18%.

• 1:22:31Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  It's 6% today. People are flipping out. It's like almost 20%. I know a guy who took out a private mortgage at 21%. And a new mortgage costs 51% of the median family's paycheck.

• 1:22:43Speaker 00

  21%, that's like credit card APR mortgage.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the average one was 15, 16%.

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  Holy smokes.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  If you could get it. I've talked to people who are like, I couldn't get a mortgage, so I had to go get a private mortgage. I know a lot of people, including my parents, who bought their house, they would sit down with the family that was selling it and come to terms and like, get a second mortgage from the family. We'll pay you back over time. And we won't tell the bank. This kind of stuff was normal. If I go back, in every era, wages are lower, women's opportunities are less. I can take you to every win. And I promise you, after I do that little, that Christmas Carol.

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say, what's that movie where they go get visited by the ghosts?

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  The Christmas Carol journey through time. I'd be like, you want to be 30 right now.

• 1:23:21Speaker 00

  That's fascinating, because I think the nihilism of Gen Z, which I mentioned either at the top of the show or possibly before we hit record, is just that, it's impossible now in a way that's unique. And the message is, it's more than possible, and it's not unique at all.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's nothing you're facing someone in another generation hasn't already faced. We already know what the strategies were that they used to get by and to get ahead. You can do those same things today. No one, including me, is telling you, it's super easy. I'm just trying to say it is possible, and it's always been possible. And that is the thing to like, optimistically look out in the world and go like, I got a pretty good shot at this.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  Talking about beating the market, a lot of people, they're watching, I don't know, Jim Cramer, and they're picking stocks, and they're thinking like, okay, I want to get ahead of the market. I've asked my dad about this, and I've looked at what the market returns. It's pretty good. I don't know why you would actually care enough to try to do that unless it was really easy, which obviously it isn't.

• 1:24:15Speaker 02

  So there's a kind of common trope that you can't really beat the market, so don't try. That's actually not true. So you can statistically beat the market. They've done studies. And the professional investors who control $600 million or more, they do beat the market by about one half of 1% every year. Now, if you're controlling $600 million, that's a lot of money.

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  Now, let's turn that on the median 401k balance. And let's just say you could control all of it. And you did what those guys do. All right, what do they do? They went to Yale for four years. They did an internship on Wall Street. They worked 70 plus hour weeks. I think it's Morgan Stanley recently did a big announcement, like they were maxing out the hours at 80 hours a week as a morale booster.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Would stop dying in the office.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, like morale booster. No more 81 hour weeks. We're stopping at 80.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  That's grim.

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  They do all of that to get the one half of 1% squeezed out of it. So if you did all of that, made it your full time life, on your 401k balance, you get $400 to $500 for the year. It's like one night at a hotel in Miami in hurricane season. Right? Like, that's what you're gonna get for making your whole life's work, trying to get to beat the market. It doesn't make sense. So there's a famous paper called The Kramer Bounce, where these finance professors figured out that, under a very strict set of criteria, and I have to say that because then people will just go off and try this, the very strict set of criteria, when Jim Cramer suggested to buy a stock, it would bounce for 50 to 55 days, you could short it, and you could make money because it would come back down to earth. So for like, three months of my life, like trying to prove these principles

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  from the past, I was glued to Jim Cramer's show, waiting for all these things to happen. Soon as it would happen, go online, short the stock. And technically, in those three months, I beat the market. Now, net of fees, I didn't quite do as well, but like, technically, I beat the market. While Jim Cramer is screaming at me like I am a child, I hear my wife go, come quick, she's doing it. And like, I missed my daughter's first steps. Okay, you could beat the market. Do you want to beat the market? Would it be worth it if you did?

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  This is the fire thing all over again. You can retire early, but you cannot really have a life before that. Yeah. And then after that, you can't because you haven't really saved enough to retire at age 35. Surprise, surprise. Yeah.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  We see that in the market all the time. We see it with real estate too, by the way. Like, people are obsessed with real estate investing. And I tell people, there's three myths about real estate. The myths are, number one, that it always goes up in value. Number two, it's passive. And number three, this is how the big fortunes were made. No, it doesn't. No, it isn't. No, they didn't. Frankly, so let's talk about not going up. Everybody in LA and New York can kind of like, tune out for a second because this doesn't apply to you.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  We live in the Twilight Zone, real estate wise.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  But if I go to Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Houston, like, most American cities, in the 1990s, a house cost in the 1990s, inflation adjusted, what it had cost in the 1890s?

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  The same as 100 years prior.

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  And if anybody doesn't believe me, go to the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia, they have the data set. It is 100 years, because houses weren't supposed to go up. That wasn't normal. Nobody would have told you, prior to this housing shortage that we're in, or the previous ones that people were in. The only times you hear people say accurately, real estate goes up is in a housing shortage, like the one we're in right now. But normally, you don't have a housing shortage because we build enough houses. So to make this point, here's another phenomenon people used to get into. In the early space era, people were like,

• 1:27:33Speaker 00

  Who owns the moon?

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  And people like racing to claim that they own whatever lunar land, right? And so these organizations still to this day have competing websites that say they have the legit claim to the moon. None of them can hold up in court. But I went and I bought an acre on the Sea of Serenity. I have a huge plat thing and like the deed to the land. And it was advertised as having phenomenal earth views and zoned for tourism. And I thought if it was zoned for industrial, then it would probably ruin the earth views. So like that's, it makes sense. Can I make that land? Legalities aside, can I make that land more valuable? No, I would have to spend billions to oxygenate it and get Elon to give me a ride. And then maybe I can make it more valuable. That is how most Americans thought about property. It only got more valuable if you did something to it to make it more valuable.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  It didn't just go up on its own. So this idea that we have in these kind of times of real estate bubbles because of shortages is pretty episodic. It's new. It's not passive. I can guarantee you that I've made millions of dollars in real estate and it's not passive.

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  My wife's family owns a couple of condos and they rent them out. And there's been several times where it's, hey, Jordan, can you come help me? The closet, whatever, the bar in the closet has fallen in this, one of our tenants condos and it's a single gal and she's got all this heavy crap that we gotta move. And so I need your help doing it. And it's like, dude, it's 11:00 PM on a Tuesday. We can't just leave her clothes on the floor and she's gotta go to work. So we have to go now and do it. And it's like, all right.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  You have a customer. That's the thing. It's a business.

• 1:29:01Speaker 00

  It's a client.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  It's a business with clients. Exactly. And because the last time we had housing shortage, the 40s, 50s, 60s, there were all these advice manuals about how to buy real estate. I thought, okay, I need to do this too. So I went and bought a house. The first house that I bought is a rental property. Old house, fix it up, make it nice, get a tenant in it. And amazing tenant. She's just like from heaven. She's like, I already own a house. It's on the other side of town. I work for a temporary staffing agency. Should have been my red flag, but I've been transferred for work and I just need to get to know the area. Oh, she's amazing. Be great. Never see her again. But vans start pulling up to the houses and loading like 20 guys into the house. And I was like, this doesn't make sense. And there's lithium mines in North Carolina. This is where I live at the time.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  And she was a temp staffing agency worker who was basically going in and renting houses for these illegal immigrants who had been brought in as human trafficked to work the lithium mines in North Carolina. And so we go to the cops. I should evict her, but first probably I should go to the cops. And so we went to the cops and next thing I know, I wanna call the FBI. And they're like, it's a human trafficking ring. Will you please not evict them so that we can track it?

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  So the first month of my real estate journey was watching human traffickers destroy my house.

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  While the FBI tracked me. Thankfully, they swarm the house like a van pulls up. These guys are rushing to a van. They drive off. The cops come down. They're like, it's a TV scene.

• 1:30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:20Speaker 02

  And we walk in the house. It's completely destroyed.

• 1:30:22Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah. There's 20 dudes living in there.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, and so it was more than that because they would rotate. It was like a night shift and a day shift. All right. So all this to say, I was like, it can't get worse. And so I was like, let me just see if this is as bad as it gets. But I can tell you from that experience and from many of the other experiences I've had, real estate is not a passive investment.

• 1:30:39Speaker 00

  A lot of people like to think that landlords have it easy. They just have a property and you have to pay them and lucky them. And it's like, yeah, until there's a water leak or somebody who doesn't wanna leave and stays there for eight months rent free while the courts take their sweet time evicting them, while there's junkies making meth in the kitchen and the whole place has to be torn down at your expense.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  The historical returns on real estate throughout history are four to 6%.

• 1:31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  And nobody will tell you that.

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  And index funds are?

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Depending how you count it, 7% to 12%.

• 1:31:05Speaker 00

  Okay. So why bother with the?

• 1:31:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. Now, the why bother is because of the leverage. You can get those returns, but you're buying it for 20 cents on the dollar. So this is what, why the American dream is so American house focused is because if I told people across the world, hey, for 20 cents down or even five cents down, because you can get 5% down payment, for five cents on the dollar, you can buy this asset and all of its price appreciation will be yours. And not only that, in America, which is very rare across the world, you can lock in the interest payment. So if interest rates go up, your payment will not. That is a jewel of an investment class. And so it's because of the leverage now. But a lot of people get sucked in with the dream of, oh, it's gonna be money in your mailbox.

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  Right. I don't have to do anything for it. Yeah. One thing that I've heard quite a bit of is like, oh, we're drowning in debt. Back in the day, before credit cards or something like that, everybody just paid with only money they had. Is that true at all? Okay.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  No, there's two myths about debt. The first is that people used to frolic through the fields of paying their own way as they went with cash. That's utterly not true. Americans were drowning in debt from day one. And the other myth is that debt is really how people got rich. Debt doesn't make you rich. Opportunity makes you rich. Debt allows you to grab as much as you can, if you can manage it. And so then the perennial American figure on debt is Ben Franklin, because he writes all these essays, he prints all these essays for early Americans, shaming them like, don't you go into that sale and buy stuff you don't need with money you don't have. And again, the advice like that is, the shaming is.

• 1:32:31Speaker 00

  The OG guru.

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, the OG guru. Here's what he doesn't say. He's in the middle of having his printing press repossessed for not paying his debts. So he's behind on his payments.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  So he speaks from experience.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Franklin gets his start going deeply into debt to start a printing business, borrows money from his partner's dad. That guy wants to be paid back. The printing press people, he buys that on payments. He falls behind on the payments, have to go to friends to borrow money from them to pay off so that the press won't actually get torn apart and taken back somewhere else. And like meanwhile, he's printing all these things to say, don't get into debt. I guess because he doesn't understand that it can get you, again, as much opportunity as you can handle when it comes along. He sees the opportunity. He's trying to grab a little too much. Now, he then goes to a young lady in town, he courts her, goes to her family and says, I will marry your daughter, but for her dowry, I want you to give me enough money to pay off all these debts. And they're like, we don't have that much money.

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  And he says, mortgage your house and I'll marry your daughter. And they're like, no. So he marries somebody else. That's how much debt Ben Franklin is in. So a lot of our debt misconceptions are this idea of like, it's either, I think you stay completely away from, or it's the only way to get wealthy. And the reality is it's a little more messy than both of those things.

• 1:33:44Speaker 00

  They're like, mortgage your house and I'll marry your daughter. Aren't you that guy that stood outside in a rainstorm with a key tied to a kite? I don't think we wanna be, we don't need you in the family, buddy. Oh, man. All right. 300 years from now, 100 years from now, what will people look back on and say, we were foolishly pessimistic about it?

• 1:34:04Speaker 02

  I think that we think that whatever's happening now is what will always happen. So if you are a millennial struggling to get on the property ladder, that somehow this is the advice that's gonna carry forward to your kids and grandkids. More than likely, one way or the other, either the houses are gonna get built or the population's gonna shrink and we're gonna solve that problem at some point. And these millennials, I worry, will carry forward this kind of like anti-property ownership mythology that will then hurt the next generation. So I think the pessimism about getting on the property ladder probably doesn't survive another few decades. Cause I can find all these kind of complaints that nobody can get ahead and nobody can own a house in all the earlier eras, and those also didn't prove to be true. The example of this is the Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration, the FDR administration.

• 1:34:46Speaker 02

  For all the good that it did, and it did a lot of good, there were people coming out of that into the Truman administration who said, the one way to solve our housing problem is not to let builders build more houses, but to let the government do it. And they published a bestselling book on this from like people inside the administration. And they were basically telling people, don't rush off and buy houses. We, the government, will eventually solve the problem. If you had read that book and followed that advice, you would have missed the property boom of the 50s, 60s and 70s. And so all those houses that all the millennials wish they could own, grandma, grandpa, can you hurry up and die? There's all these online conversations about this. The people who bought those houses gleefully ignored the advice from the Truman administration that said, don't let the market solve the problem.

• 1:35:27Speaker 00

  Don't worry, the government's coming to rescue you is not something you hear a lot in 2026.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:35:32Speaker 00

  Right?

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  From either.

• 1:35:33Speaker 00

  No. I'm not sure how much we have to worry about that one. What is one slow time move somebody can make this week that gives their future self the best chance when the fast time comes?

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you want to be in a place where you can concentrate on being excellent at something. And it's easier to do that when you're not so vulnerable to getting wiped out. There's this old adage of like, kind of to tennis, like the way you win tennis matches is by not winning the loser's game, as they say. And I think one of the things you wanna do is put yourself in a position where if you had enough cash pushed away, you could take the risk to concentrate on something. Like, cause the big money is made not diversifying into a bunch of broad stock assets. The big money is made concentrating on being excellent at one thing that gets rewarded. So if you can put yourself in a position, I tell young people a lot of times, like, should I start putting money in an index fund? Sure. But can you put that same 500 bucks or a thousand bucks or whatever it's gonna be over

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  time into some training certificate or some college program or some?

• 1:36:30Speaker 00

  So investing in yourself has higher returns.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does, over and over. Because if you invest in yourself and your career growth, you can double or triple your income. That's gonna outpace anything you put in the market.

• 1:36:42Speaker 00

  That's really insightful and makes complete sense. If your kids inherit, let's say, none of your money, but one financial reflex, what do you hope that reflex is?

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Believe that you can. Just again, over and over, optimism gets over rewarded. I fear that the pessimism that kind of big whoa with the microphone gets into their ear and convinces them that there's not worth taking the risk. And the more people who hear that, the less risk takers we have.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  The bigger the rewards are. So the people willing to take the risk get outsized rewards because more and more people are buying into the idea they shouldn't take the risk.

• 1:37:12Speaker 00

  That's interesting. People should rewind that and listen to it again. That little bit right there. What piece of financial advice that sounds smart here in 2026 do you think is most likely to humiliate us in a couple decades?

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  If you give me a couple of decades to call the shot, I'll be so old it won't matter. But I do think that one day we will hit a tipping point on index funds that people don't want to admit is coming. If everyone herds onto the elephant, it's great while it's running uphill, but when it runs downhill, it can run even faster because if all the buyers are index funds and they go to sell, who are you selling to? And so I think there's a problem that's building there. I don't think we're there yet. I don't think anybody should panic about it. I'm writing an essay about this called index funds were an American revolution, but when is the French revolution coming? And we start cutting off people's heads. Like at some point, we're going to have to be aware of that. Smarter people than me are going to need to create regulations to make sure it doesn't go off a cliff because you don't want the elephant to run off a cliff.

• 1:38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would be horrifying. Then all the responsible people who had investments are suddenly screwed. I mean, that's pitchfork time.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  We see this, by the way, this is over and over in history. To one quick story, in 1912, if I go to 1912, Babe Ruth doesn't even play for the Yankees yet. And everybody knows what you should do with money. And it's not invest in stocks. You should invest in real estate and bonds because you get a four to 5% return and there's no inflation. Because in 1912, a gallon of milk is 24 cents a gallon. If I go to 1812, a gallon of milk is 24 cents a gallon. There's no inflation for 100 years. So all of the financial advice was built around, it's obvious, you get a four to 5% return, there's no inflation, you'll do fine. And so everybody pours into the Liberty Bonds for World War I and it goes from 0% inflation to 8%, 18, 17, 15, 15. In five years, prices doubled. There was

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  not a person alive who knew what to do. All the investing advice people had then fell apart in five years. And all the advice we have today was birthed in that era. Everything we do today, I can find, starts out in that kind of time. Invest for the long run in stocks, you have gold bugs, financial independence, retire early, the first book on that's 1919. So we've seen big transitions before. We'll see another one in our lifetime and just be adaptable.

• 1:39:14Speaker 00

  This has been really interesting. I had no idea about most of this. I think that's probably true for most people, that we think the way it is now is kind of the way it's always been, except it's worse now. And it's just like, no, not even close. Not even close. Well, that's good news, I think, for pretty much everyone.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  I like to think that the future tends to look better than the past. And if you doubt that, go look at the actual past.

• 1:39:33Speaker 00

  Joseph Moore, thank you very much.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  I've really enjoyed it. Jordan, thanks you so much.

• 1:39:38Speaker 00

  What if everything modern society teaches us about trust, status and connection is backward? Psychologist Guillaume de Lude ventured into some of the world's most remote communities with no shared language, no GPS, and no guarantee he'd be welcomed or even make it home.

• 1:39:50Speaker 04

  I've always been attracted by nature, animals, expeditions, tribes. I'm going to try to go around the world with no money. Just rely on communication to survive. Talk to people, get accepted by people, go live with them and see if I can survive like this. So that's how it started. Safety wise, you need to know when people have problems with you and you need to keep your distance and you need to show them that they will lead. If you're trying to do too much, even with good intention, you don't have no idea what they can do. There are no rules here. We're absolutely alone. There is nobody that knows exactly where we are. So you need to always show that you understand their rules and

• 1:40:34Speaker 04

  you play by their rules and you're always listening to them. If they feel that you're always listening and responding in a way that they want, the anxiety will lower, vulnerability in relationship will increase. I do as much research as possible. I'm addicted to discovery, I think. I'm addicted to new cultures, new experience and the whole psychology around the culture. I want reality. I want proof. I want to know, how do you live traditionally? Where we come from as human beings? And I think that's always been my quest. Who are we? Who am I? Where do we come from? What's the future? If we know where we come from, can we make a better future? I was hooked. So the rest, it's history.

• 1:41:18Speaker 00

  Discover what uncontacted tribes revealed about earning trust, creating belonging, and reclaiming the human connection we may have lost on episode 1318 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

• 1:41:30Speaker 00

  Big thanks to Joseph Moore. Joseph began this project expecting history to confirm that rich people had rigged the game. Instead, he found 300 years of Americans insisting the ladder had already been pulled up while people born near the bottom kept climbing it anyway. That doesn't prove the system is fair. It doesn't make housing affordable. It doesn't erase structural barriers or mean poverty is just some kind of bad attitude. It means that despair is not analysis and treating the future as hopeless can become a very effective way to guarantee it. The most useful distinction here is between creating wealth and protecting it. Budgeting, diversification, index funds, compound interest, that can all keep you from going broke and preserve what you've built. The larger financial leaps usually come from concentration. Being unusually good at something valuable, solving expensive

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  problems, moving toward opportunity, building ownership, and taking productive risks without confusing leverage with a personality. And none of today's timeless financial advice is actually timeless at all. Americans were once warned to never save money. Stocks were considered reckless. Index funds barely existed. The correct strategy keeps changing, which makes adaptability more valuable than pretending the current playbook was carved onto stone tablets by Warren Buffett. So build runway, invest in your earning power, solve other people's problems, take risks you can survive, and don't let big woe convince you to quit before fast time arrives. If you know somebody who thinks they miss the American dream because their ancestors weren't on the Mayflower, share this episode with them, or just tell them to ride through diarrhea and marry the richest widow in Virginia.

• 1:42:59Speaker 00

  Worked for George Washington, your mileage may vary. All things Joseph Moore will be in the show notes on the website. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well over at sixminutenetworking.com. Always free, always will be. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Todd Sodlowski, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, I

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

• 1:43:51Speaker 00

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5, only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.