Jason Kelce: From Underdog to NFL Legend

GET TICKETS TO THE LIVE TOUR HERE: https://www.livenation.co.uk/joe-marler-will-see-you-live-tickets-adp1647830 When Jason Kelce walks into the office, Joe does a double take. Has he just met his long-lost brother? The resemblance is uncanny, but it turns out the pair have a lot more in common than just their faces… Jason reflects on his journey through the NFL, the pressure of constantly being the underdog, and the surreal experience of facing his brother in the Super Bowl. Growing up, their rivalry was fierce — but competing on the biggest stage in American football brought a whole new set of emotions. With retirement bringing a new career in media, Jason and Joe compare notes on what it’s like to find your feet in a completely different world. But their similarities only get them so far. When two natural competitors get together, things can only end one way: with Joe and Jason going head-to-head in a physical showdown. Featuring Joe Marler (@joemarler17) and Jake Bhardwaj (@jakebhardwajtv) Follow the show on Instagram: @willseeyounowshow Joe Marler Will See You Now is a Platform Media production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:30Speaker 03

  Jake?

• 1:31Speaker 04

  Joe.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  I've got a little story to tell.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  Go on.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Today's guest.

• 1:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  I've already met them in the last 24 hours.

• 1:37Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  And can I tell you what happened?

• 1:41Speaker 04

  Go on.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  His team reached out on Instagram, or it turned out to be his team. They first reached out by sending a DM to me.

• 1:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  And the pod. And we're like, hey, we represent Jason Kelce. We do his YouTube channel. We want to come over and film some rugby stuff with you and we'd love to come on your podcast. So I was checking and Tom sent it to me and I looked at it, I was like, is this real? I was like, that'd be so cool. It's Jason Kelce. I was like, can't be real. There's no like official account. It looks not like a ropey account, but it looked like.

• 2:14Speaker 04

  Just someone.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Just someone who loves a bit of Instagram. Just a couple of posts put up and nothing too much. And I was like, no, it can't be true. And then it wasn't until, even up until we went to meet him yesterday to do his YouTube channel, where they'd asked me to take him through some rugby bits. But we turned up and there was an English guy, sound engineer, looked there. He was on his own.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  The sound engineer?

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Sound engineer. And he had all like the boom and the stuff.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  And he was on his own, but I sent him a record. I was like, how are you? And he was like, hi, I'm Richard. And I was like, oh. He was like, I've been to your house. I was like, huh? What? This is random. He said, yeah, I came about eight years ago. And I was like, okay, right, okay.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  For what?

• 2:56Speaker 03

  For a documentary I did. And I was like, yeah. And then another guy turned up, English guy, small. He had a rugby shirt on. He was like, hi, I'm Will. I'm here for the Kelsey YouTube film and all that lot. So it was me, Tom, Will and Richard, the sound engineer.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  But it was like 10 minutes where we were sitting around and Tom turned around to me and was like,

• 3:24Speaker 03

  I wouldn't be surprised if Michael McIntyre just jumps out from underneath this sofa right now because it feels like he's been stitched up. I said, I was like, I knew fucking Instagram was fake. This is really, I was looking forward to it. And then, hey guys, we heard an American voice.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  And then.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  Is that what that was?

• 3:48Speaker 04

  That's what that was, right?

• 3:49Speaker 03

  And then another 12 Americans, one after the other, including Jason Kelce and another big unit called Bo Allen, who's a former NFL player, who's a mate of his as well, just came through and it was that relief of like, oh, it's happening.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  So he's got a massive pod, right? Yeah? Podcast, yeah. Oh, look, he's in Janet's waiting room. Okay. I don't want to say podcast, I want to say bod. They do these big intros, don't they?

• 4:23Speaker 03

  The one that they did for their prints that they had on theirs.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  They went big, like, like proper American. I think it's, I think we should do it. I think we've definitely got it in us.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Are we doing it in American accents or English accents?

• 4:37Speaker 03

  Well, let me hear your American accent first.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  Where's he from?

• 4:40Speaker 03

  He's from, he's from Cleveland, Ohio.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  Cleveland, Ohio.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  But he's a big Philadelphia man. He was always that Philly, he was an eagle.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  We're gonna.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  Go Birds!

• 4:47Speaker 04

  It's Go Birds! This is what it is.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  A-G-L-E-S. Go Birds!

• 4:54Speaker 04

  They love spelling. And I feel like in American sports, they love spelling. U-S-A. Another one, we spell, like always spelling stuff, okay? Joe Marler. Right, this is it. This is how you talk if you're an American sports guy.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, man.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  We're gonna go to the tri-states. We're gonna get to the tri-state finals. You're gonna lay off the corn dogs. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna lay off the slushies and we're gonna make it to the state champs, okay? I got a quarterback playing point guard. I got a point guard playing quarterback. Let's go.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Wait, wait, man. Do you want a Twinkie?

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Huh?

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Do you want a?

• 5:29Speaker 04

  If I have another Twinkie, I'm not gonna make it to the state drafts, okay?

• 5:32Speaker 03

  But we come here, we come here, having done the, we did the combine.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  Have you not read the affidavit?

• 5:39Speaker 03

  What?

• 5:40Speaker 04

  The affidavit has been subpoenaed, meaning that I'm now gonna be in the final drafts, okay? And that's not happening on Labor Day, okay? Not on any Labor Day I'm involved in.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Not about on Independence Day, man.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, 4th of July, okay? We're having marshmallow fluff and smores.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Smores? You said smores?

• 6:02Speaker 04

  I don't want any smore from you, man.

• 6:06Speaker 04

  No more smores, okay? You lay off the grits.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  What?

• 6:10Speaker 04

  I'm just saying, basically every American word that I've heard, and I don't know what it means.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  You lay off the grits?

• 6:15Speaker 04

  They are something else that they eat as well.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  I don't know, I don't know what these words are. Your SAT scores are gonna go way up. Your GPA is not okay, dude. Not okay. Ready? Here we go.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Tell the people who we got on the show, man.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  Coming to you live from Europe's least qualified medical facility. Our guest today is seven-time Pro Bowler and six-time first-team All-Pro Super Bowl champion. He was the 191st pick in the 2011 NFL Draft, who went to become one of the greatest centers of his generation. Philadelphia icon, podcasting heavyweight broadcaster, father of foreign owner of one of the greatest beer fans in the world. Let's see if he can take this podcast to new heights. It's Jason Kelce!

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Yeah!

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Come on! Go Bears! Go Bears, go Eagles! Go Birds!

• 7:07Speaker 03

  Hello Janet, could you let Jason Kelce in please? Thank you.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Jason Kelce, everybody!

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Come on.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Dr. Joe?

• 7:25Speaker 03

  What is the proper?

• 7:26Speaker 04

  Look at that.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good, hefty hug right there. Oh, that's nice.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Oh, that's great.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  All right. Please, please take a seat. You look wonderful. You too. Lovely thick hair. Is it your own? It is. Okay. Is yours? Uh.

• 7:44Speaker 04

  It's so weird.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  You've just turned up and he's just ashed. Without alpharing, he's out Alfred straight away.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  You know when sitcoms do like a British version of an episode? Like, you're gonna meet your cousins in England. And it's like, you're looking at each other and the beard's there and you're both so broad and it's like.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  There is a lot of similarities, yes.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  This morning, you should have seen, so we came into like, we came, people behind the curtain, there's a little like seating area there. I came in late, Joe was just moving sofas. I was like, what's going on? He's like, you have no idea, there are gonna be 10 very broad American men in here. You have no idea how broad they are. I came in, they turned up, they are quite broad to be fair. They are, they're, they're big boys. You weren't wrong.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Right, you're actually here so that we can have a little rummage around in that giant Swede of yours. Let's see, been waiting for this, doctor.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  I've heard good things. Lower that expectation immediately.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Uh, we begin with an intake questionnaire. You ready?

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  It's a tricky one, this one. Full name?

• 8:44Speaker 05

  Jason Daniel Kelsey.

• 8:47Speaker 03

  Star sign?

• 8:49Speaker 05

  Uh, Scorpio.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Uh, occupation?

• 8:57Speaker 05

  Uh, media personality.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  Analyst.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Anal cyst.

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Analyst.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  Analyst. Media personality, analyst. Uh, how long's it taken you to

• 9:13Speaker 03

  come to terms with not calling yourself a footballer?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  It still feels weird. Like even there, you know, you wanna say retired football player or former football player, but yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Okay. Explain to a British rugby player what an NFL centre does in one sentence.

• 9:28Speaker 05

  He communicates the blocking assignments,

• 9:34Speaker 05

  snaps the ball, comma, and then executes his assignment

• 9:40Speaker 05

  after that.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  I might need another sentence.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  So Joe, Joe, for, for, um, for British English audiences, and, and how would you liken that to a footballer?

• 9:54Speaker 04

  That dis- that description, like a Jordan Henderson?

• 9:58Speaker 04

  Like a CDM?

• 9:59Speaker 03

  Like a Neville, like a Gary Neville.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 10:01Speaker 05

  Gary Neville.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Like a Gary Neville.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  I'll take that.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  You're a lot different to Gary Neville.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  I'd love to see. Yeah. You see that.

• 10:12Speaker 04

  You've got a lot more aura than Gary Neville.

• 10:15Speaker 04

  Sorry, Gary, if you're watching.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  What's, uh, what's the last completely unnecessary thing that you turned into a competition?

• 10:24Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 10:27Speaker 05

  Kinda happens all the time.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Everything?

• 10:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. What about handshakes? Do you ever turn handshakes into like a competition?

• 10:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Where you just, just like.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  Well, it, it, it depends on how it's like going.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  You got a big meaty hand, Joe.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  That's nice.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  For the audio listener, nothing weird's going on.

• 10:49Speaker 05

  The most recent one I can remember was a, uh, we sat down for an authentic sumo wrestling meal with a bunch of sumo wrestlers.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  And is that authentic meal like a big broth?

• 11:00Speaker 05

  Yes, a big broth.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Eight chickens in?

• 11:02Speaker 05

  Where they put all the meat in there and then all that and.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  And it was definitely feeling like there was a competition happening unspoken of who would eat the most. Yes.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  And where, how did you fare in that?

• 11:14Speaker 05

  I feel like I did really well.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  You did well.

• 11:16Speaker 05

  I think I might have won.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  And this is when you went to try out being a sumo?

• 11:19Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:20Speaker 04

  So you just go around the world, like meeting the biggest blokes who play the biggest sports?

• 11:23Speaker 05

  Essentially, yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  And how did you fare doing the sumo?

• 11:26Speaker 05

  I, I, out of six sumo matches, I, uh, I won one, tied one, and lost the rest of them.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  And how did you get on with the? How did you get on with the gear that you were wearing?

• 11:39Speaker 05

  That was, the mawashi was something to get used to.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Mawashi?

• 11:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Was it quite freeing?

• 11:43Speaker 05

  It was, I think, it was quite, um, I felt vulnerable.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  In case the left nut came out?

• 11:50Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 05

  And at one point it got a little loose and, uh, I was told that someone could see my ana- analysis.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  I like it. I like it a lot.

• 12:07Speaker 05

  So we had to, uh, to re-tighten it, but yes. It was, uh, it was quite nice, honestly, yeah. It's, it's quite the view that you get at a sumo match. I mean, you're seeing some big, beautiful,

• 12:20Speaker 04

  But there's no, there's no weight division either.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 12:23Speaker 04

  So, so, you know, I could be going up against you two. In theory.

• 12:27Speaker 05

  In theory, yes.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  But we, but, you know, because we're all physical humans right now, we could at some point potentially later down the road that put that end to practice.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  What a no weight divisions, three-way sumo wrestle between the three of us.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  We'll just clear the desk. And instead of circle, we just have the square carpet. Fancy it?

• 12:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, all right, go on.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  Well, we can fold this carpet up and use it as a mawashi.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Or we could fold him up and use him as a.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  I wanna do that.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Come on, done again.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Who's your biggest rival?

• 13:08Speaker 05

  In football?

• 13:09Speaker 04

  Life.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  Life.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  I'm not specifying.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  Well, my biggest rival? Um,

• 13:17Speaker 05

  I suppose it's my brother.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Always been the case?

• 13:23Speaker 05

  Feels like that.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  With the earlier question about taking things as a competition all the time, when you were growing up, was there stuff outside of football that was just, was everything a competition? Like who could get the front seat in the car or who could sort of like throw a bit of rubbish in a bin and land it or whatever, you know, stupid little things like that?

• 13:39Speaker 05

  Of course, yeah, yeah, every, everything, you know, uh. We, I was two years older, so I won most of them growing up. And, uh, now I would say I, I lose the vast majority of them.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Do you remember at what point he started winning? The speed at which he went, yes.

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Um, he, uh, the moment he got taller than me, really. Cause, uh, we, he played basketball. I never played organized basketball and we're in the backyard. And he's just driving the lane and doing this stupid hook shot. And I can't stop it. So I resort to following him and hitting him and getting physical.

• 14:17Speaker 05

  And, uh, he threw, throws the ball at me, we get into a big fight in the middle of the kitchen. We're, we're punching each other. My dad grabs me, he pushes me back on top of dad, dad goes, ah, my ribs! And that ended the fight and that's the last fistfight we've been in, but really since that moment, he's been better at me at pretty much everything.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  So it's always been him. What about yourself?

• 14:41Speaker 05

  Rival with myself?

• 14:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  Well, I guess that is the biggest rival. That's everybody's biggest.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Interesting. That was quite, oh, that was quite a profound question.

• 14:49Speaker 05

  It was, it was very good.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  I have no idea where I.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  There was a moment where it was like, what are you on about? And then, and then, what, what are you fucking talking about? And then it was like, oh, wow, very profound.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Oh, shut your face.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  Uh, last one, what's tougher, rugby or NFL?

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Well, I'm better at football, so I guess I'd say rugby.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  As in you're, you're now on record saying that rugby is a tougher sport than American football?

• 15:17Speaker 05

  I'll give you guys that.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Silence. Just, oh, let's just sit in that for a minute. Let's make that go viral.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Edit the fuck out of it so it goes really hard. All right, okay. Yeah, fair enough.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Can you explain the phrase, hungry dogs run faster?

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Basically, if you are motivated

• 15:45Speaker 05

  to achieve greatness and you are being continually told that you're not there yet and you have that hunger, that desire to achieve, you tend to work harder than a dog or somebody who's already achieved greatness potentially. And has not been fighting to live up to those expectations.

• 16:10Speaker 05

  Maybe, is that a good explanation?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  It's your saying, like.

• 16:14Speaker 05

  Well, it's my coach's saying.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Right, and you, you were shouting it in the Super Bowl in your retirement speech, in the victory speech, that's your, your go-to?

• 16:24Speaker 05

  Coach would always remind us that you ain't as good as you think. And that until, in order to achieve greatness, you have to continue to work every single day. And the guys that remain hungry to achieve greatness, to win, those are the guys that generally win the game, win the season, win the Super Bowl, have successful careers and such, yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Did that saying from your, your coach resonate with you hard?

• 16:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  Because, you know, people would say you were too small, you didn't get into the high school scholarship, you were a late draft pick. Was that always like a driving force behind wanting to be successful? Proving people wrong?

• 17:06Speaker 05

  You're good at this, Joe.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Clip that up.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Don't get complacent.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Stay hungry for it, all right? That's what I'm saying.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  No, Paul, fucking end it there. You fucking sit here. Let me sit there and snack away. Oh my God. Okay. Um,

• 17:29Speaker 03

  but you then, you then went on to become a legend of your sport. You won the Super Bowl.

• 17:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  You retired and then you became this like media personality, like superstar.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  You're successful. You can't, you can't then go around going, oh, I'm the underdog now, you know, I've been, I've been the underdog all my life and, you know, that's what's driving me now.

• 17:55Speaker 05

  Yeah. I kinda still do do that.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Um, do you know what I think you're suffering from?

• 18:02Speaker 05

  Tell me.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Underdog withdrawal syndrome.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  That's why the symptoms have really shown me.

• 18:08Speaker 04

  That's the case.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  Today, I want to prove that you don't need to be the underdog to keep winning. Most successful teams I was part of, we were always better.

• 18:17Speaker 05

  Always good.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  When we had the underdog mindset, when we had backs against the wall and we were constantly like wanting to prove people wrong.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  But like, how do you do that when you then become successful? Like you have to shift into a new mindset?

• 18:33Speaker 05

  Do you?

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Oh, fucking, what's going on with this fucking role I've got? Everyone keeps Uno reversing my arse.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  And then suddenly you've got to back, you've got to back this theory that you've come up with on the way in. It's, it's tough, isn't it?

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Did you actually like being called an underdog?

• 18:57Speaker 05

  I did, yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Why?

• 19:00Speaker 05

  Because I think the underdog term usually gets thrown around in a very affectionate way. You usually don't call a terrible team an underdog. The underdog is usually assigned to a team that's overachieving expectations.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  For the listeners and viewers who don't really know NFL that well, can we talk about some of the times that you've been the underdog and that you've had to prove people wrong? We've got, like, what does it mean to be a walk-on? Is that a bad thing? Is a walk-on a bad thing?

• 19:32Speaker 05

  I am happy that it happened. I think looking, it's not what you want coming out of high school. So you just, in the United States, if you're good enough to play at a Division One school, a big school, you're usually given a scholarship, so you go to school for free. And some of that stuff's changing now with like the NIL and like players get paid now. Like, it's a different landscape than it used to be, but a walk-on is somebody who's not given a scholarship. You just go and you try out and you make the team now. And yeah, you're paying for school.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  And then you were 191st draft pick?

• 20:11Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  I'm guessing, and I know little about it, that's not, that's not high?

• 20:16Speaker 05

  It's pretty close to not getting drafted, yeah. It's closer to not getting drafted than being high.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  Okay, so what do, when do you, what, I'm trying to get into your mindset when you were going through, you're a walk-on, you're 191st, rather than going, oh, fuck it, maybe I'm not good enough.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  What then drove you on? Was it just the constant wanting to prove people wrong?

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Well, I think that was when I didn't get a scholarship. I toyed around with, not playing football, I toyed around with playing in the lower division. All these things and my parents really pushed me. They said, you know, if you think you can make it and this is what you want to do, we'll support you. And we ended up going in that route. I had a grandfather who really wasn't a great person. Like, he had like five different wives and he cheated on damn near all of them. But he was a really good grandfather for at least one moment. And he gave me a card with a quote from Calvin Coolidge on it about persistence.

• 21:19Speaker 05

  It was like, oh my gosh, I used to have the card with me and I'm going to butcher this fucking quote.

• 21:27Speaker 05

  Nothing can take the place of persistence. Talent will not, the world is full of unrewarded talent. Education will not, the world is full of educated derelicts. Genius will not, you know, so forth. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. And he gave this to me, really just reinforced, like, you know, listen, it's, you might not like where you're at right now, but it's not over. Like, you can keep working at this, you can prove people wrong, you can go and, you know, try to achieve your dreams.

• 22:03Speaker 05

  And that was a thing that stood out greatly at the moment when that happened. And that was kind of the last little thing that pushed me to try and walk on instead of go to a different route, I guess.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  I just got lost in you. You went, oh, I'm going to butcher this quote. I was like, fucking hell.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and absolutely nailed it.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  It was close enough.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not, it's not word for word. More of that quote.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, so that was really my first experience of Hungry Dogs Run Faster. Because I think it's pretty much synonymous.

• 22:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. So when you're, I'm just getting, learning so much already, but like when you're playing and other people are not, you know, paying for university but you are, is there, does that create a different dynamic amongst everyone else? Or is it, or do people just sort of not really notice it? What's, is there any internal politics around that?

• 22:54Speaker 05

  Well, there's definitely politics, right? The coaches have all invested in recruits and people that they've given scholarships to.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Oh, I see.

• 23:02Speaker 05

  So you're really a tackling dummy, most of those guys are, right? You're just there for practice.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  And then, now I was a preferred walk-on, which means that I was somewhat recruited. I wasn't just a pure walk off the street guy.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  There's a little bit of tier. More and more layers of hierarchy. Well, he's a non-preferred walk-on, but still a, there's a walk-on in him and you're a preferred walk-on.

• 23:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Brutal.

• 23:26Speaker 05

  So as far as like with the team though, the teammates are teammates, right? Like, that didn't really have any dynamic.

• 23:36Speaker 05

  But you have to, you know, again, they're going to give a lot of preferential treatment to the guys that they've given scholarships to. So you kind of have to go above and beyond to prove that.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  It's all tied up with the pride of their own job as a scout or a recruiter as well.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're, you know, they're, they're getting paid to recruit different districts and you get a certain amount of scholarships. And why is this guy outperforming a five-star recruit that we are giving a scholarship? Now, I went, one of the reasons I went to Cincinnati specifically was Mark Dantonio, who was the head coach, he was a walk-on. So I felt like he would have a different mindset of like where these guys are at. And he left my first year, so that didn't pan out, but.

• 24:15Speaker 04

  And, and I know this sounds so basic, but I just think it would really hammer it home, what that 191st draft pick means. I think a lot of people don't know the process of a draft. We don't have anything like that in any sport here. What is the, without sort of like taking too much of your time up, but like what is the draft? How does it work? Because 191, that, that is a big deal, right?

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, so there's, there's seven rounds in the NFL draft. Each team gets one pick a round.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  So every year when they're going to decide who the players are coming from university into the big teams, right?

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Yes, and there are ways that teams get other picks, like there's compensatory picks and things like that, that I don't fully understand. But essentially, I was in the sixth round, so the second to last round, the 191st pick.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  So that all the big teams in the NFL go, we'll pick our favorite players and then?

• 25:05Speaker 05

  Yes, I was the 191st version of.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  Out of?

• 25:09Speaker 05

  What is Mr. Irrelevant, the last pick of the draft is probably somewhere like 250 or something like that?

• 25:15Speaker 03

  It's labeled Mr. Irrelevant.

• 25:16Speaker 05

  It's a great name, isn't it?

• 25:18Speaker 03

  I would, to be honest, I'd rather be Mr. Irrelevant than 191st.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  I agree, yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  At least you've got some.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  There's a title to it.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  Well, because you've got a title, you're the shittest. But not the shittest, do you know what I mean? Well, at least it's, it's like being number one, but not if that works out.

• 25:34Speaker 04

  So it's like being picked last in PE.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  How was that?

• 25:37Speaker 04

  How was it? Just a weekly occurrence. I get picked last on a Wednesday, then I got matched on a Tuesday. But it's like that, but for your career?

• 25:47Speaker 05

  Yes, yes.

• 25:48Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  So let's go through, let's go into your career now. Did you, did you continue with that mindset of, did you always go into a game having to have a villain or have someone to go at in order to drive that, proving them wrong?

• 26:05Speaker 05

  I don't, I think most of it at that point is internalized. Like, I think really you're trying to, you know, make yourself the best version and you're really competing to try and be the best player you can be. I really think almost all the high-level players I've been around have a somewhat level of insecurity. They don't think so little of themselves that they can't achieve greatness or win. And they don't think so highly of themselves that they don't think anybody's threatening them, right? There's a degree of like, they don't think they're where they're at, where they want to be at, but they also are confident enough to think that they can get there. And I think.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  It's like a scale, isn't it? You have to, for me, I can relate to that, that it was like, you have to have a level of, I'm not good enough. So that's going to drive me to want to get better.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Want to prove people wrong because they've said I'm not good enough and I think I'm not good enough.

• 27:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  But then you end up going maybe too far and then you're arrogant as fuck thinking you're the dog's bollocks and you love it. And then you've got to come back again and then it's just that constant battle of where I'm at in order to, to keep driving you.

• 27:20Speaker 05

  Yes, absolutely.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  We've got to talk about the Kelsey Bowl.

• 27:29Speaker 05

  Sure. My rival.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  Your rival, Jake. Do you know this?

• 27:35Speaker 04

  I do, I do know about this.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  The first, I couldn't believe it was the first time brothers had gone against each other in the, in the Super Bowl.

• 27:44Speaker 05

  Yes, as, as players, yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  How complicated was it for you emotionally going up against you, but you're going to try and achieve again, something that you, the biggest thing in your sport.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  But in order to do that, you've got to do a job on your brother.

• 28:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I mean, it was fortuitous that we both play offense, so I wasn't having to physically go up against them. Although I probably would have liked that more.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think, you know, when you get to that moment, as you know, you're so tight with everybody on your team and they feel in a way like brothers. And I think that you get, on one end, you're thinking about all these guys next to you, you're thinking about your own selfish desires and, you know, ambitions to achieve and win another Super Bowl. And then on the other side, you're seeing your brother over there and whenever he makes a play or does something great, it's like,

• 28:41Speaker 03

  Well done, but fuck you.

• 28:42Speaker 05

  Exactly. God damn it, I'm not, that sucks, but good job, Trav. You know, it's, it's kind of a very, they, they don't, they clash. And then immediately fall in the game, unfortunately, we lost. And that was a, the weirdest part of it, because you see mom down on the field, you see Trav, you see dad and,

• 29:05Speaker 05

  you know, you selfishly feel awful and you're with your guys and I want to, you know,

• 29:14Speaker 05

  feel shitty.

• 29:16Speaker 05

  And do feel shitty, but then you're also seeing your brother out there achieve his dreams and goals and aspirations.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  There's that unbelievable moment when that happens and your brother's buzzing, right, so, and it's a lot of big crowd, I remember seeing it and he comes up to you and you go up to congratulate him and he's, "Oh, I love you, I wouldn't be here without you" and all that, and you're just like, "Yeah, I love you, go and celebrate."

• 29:37Speaker 05

  Go see mom.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Go and celebrate. It was like a mix of, I'm gutted for my team and for personally.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 03

  But also, I want you to go and celebrate. I don't want you worrying about me or just go and make the most of it.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  For sure, yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Your first Super, was it his, his first Super Bowl?

• 29:54Speaker 05

  It was not his first. He had, he had already won.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  You fucking selfish prick. You should have gone at him. You should have said, "No, actually, I'm going to ruin it for you." That was the chance of my last Super Bowl. Scumbag.

• 30:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  Did you play your entire career at Philadelphia?

• 30:11Speaker 05

  Did.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Why do you think you and Philadelphia were such a good fit then?

• 30:15Speaker 05

  You know, my agent said when I got drafted there, he said, "You have no idea you're going to fit in so well, you're going to love that town." I think Philadelphia has enough of a diehard fanbase, they've been fans for a very long time. They really love the offensive line in particular. I think the offensive line as a position, it's very thankless or was for a very long period of time.

• 30:41Speaker 05

  You know, they're not the guys scoring the touchdowns, they're the guys that are putting in a lot of the work that is unrecognized largely. And I think Philly being a blue collar town with a bunch of working class citizens, I think, identify through linemen more so than some of the skill positions at times. So they've always had a, a deep love for O lineman and D lineman. And then being from Cleveland, another blue collar town born on the back of the auto industry and steel mill work, there was a lot of similarities in the type of athletes that I liked and grew up watching and what that city expects of their athletes. So.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and there was, I remember watching a line from your wife say, "If you move teams", she'd still support you.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  But she'd always support Philadelphia.

• 31:35Speaker 05

  She is a Philly girl, yeah, so she would.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Through and through.

• 31:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  She'd obviously support you.

• 31:40Speaker 05

  For sure, yeah. She supports Trav too, but she's not going to wear Kansas City.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Hardcore.

• 31:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  There's this line, "Being unapologetically yourself until the whole world accepts you", saying that's a Philly thing. That feels, not to get too into it, Joe, but that's quite, that's quite a you thing, I think, as well. I think you'd fit in.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  In Philly?

• 32:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's very, I mean, that quote, I feel, sums up you in a lot of ways.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Because you were a shithouse in rugby.

• 32:09Speaker 04

  Like, I, so I'm not, I'm not a sports, I mean, you might not have been able to tell, but I'm not a sports guy, really. But since me and Joe started doing stuff together, I get mates who are into rugby sending me YouTube clips and it's just, the title is, "Joe Marler being a shithouse for 15 minutes straight", and it's just a compilation of him getting in fights, but just being himself and everyone loved him for it.

• 32:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 04

  And, and look where it's sort of taken you. You didn't sort of go to sort of the norm of how other, other rugby players were, were behaving in interviews or anything like that.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  They didn't love me for it. It took, I, I was at a club that wasn't Philadelphia. I was at, what, what would be equivalent, what's an NFL, NFL team that would be like, rich?

• 32:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, San Francisco.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  So it's quite fancy and, so, what were they, the 49ers?

• 32:53Speaker 05

  49ers, yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  So say I was at San Francisco. If you're going to San Francisco.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  You have a beautiful voice, Joe.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Be sure to wear a flower in your hair.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Unapologetically himself.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  But I do feel like saying sorry for doing that.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  No.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  So I, it's fine. So I was there and I was like, I'm not from that background.

• 33:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  I constantly felt I shouldn't be here, I didn't belong here, but then was driven by trying to prove that wrong.

• 33:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  And sort of stick it to the man, so to, so to speak. And then I went like the extreme where I would do it to piss them off. I'd have like ridiculous haircuts, different colored Mohawks all the time. I'd be getting in fights all the time and it was a combination of fueling my narcissism and attention seeking, but also trying to prove a point of like, I am here. Like, I, I want to be here, I want, do you know what I mean? And it was,

• 33:58Speaker 03

  it took a while to get to a point where I felt confident to be unapologetically myself. But the way you've described your love for Philadelphia and their love for you, I was like, fucking hell, I'd love to have been at Philadelphia.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  That would have been great.

• 34:12Speaker 05

  It was a great time. It still is, but it was a great time to play for the Eagles.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Your retirement speech is unbelievable. Like, it should just be put out as a documentary on its own. I mean, it's long enough.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  It is long. It's a long.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  It's, it's a lot longer than.

• 34:30Speaker 05

  It's a lot of crying.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a lot longer than me going, "I'm not doing it anymore, all the best, thank you" and never being heard again.

• 34:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Your good 40 minutes.

• 34:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, it was a long one, yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  Mind you, the first 10 minutes is silence.

• 34:43Speaker 05

  Just sobbing.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Sobbing.

• 34:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  And I take the piss, but I don't take the piss because I sat there and watched it and was like, fucking hell, this is someone who absolutely loved what they did. Put their body on the line and thought, "Oh, what am I going to do without that?"

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  Like, what, what's it going to be like without having that day to day, that, that stuff? But you also called yourself officially overrated, didn't you?

• 35:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Why couldn't you just like sit there and go, "I was fucking good at this"? Why, why was it so uncomfortable for you to say, "I was good at this, I was good at what I did, all the best"?

• 35:25Speaker 05

  Well, I think saying you're overrated is acknowledging that.

• 35:30Speaker 05

  You don't get overrated usually unless you've been really good. I think by verbalizing that, "I think I'm overrated", I'm acknowledging that I'm not.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  You were saying, "I was good, but I wasn't as good as you lot think", but you were, you were still in that mindset of, I still, even at the end, don't feel comfortable not having that hungry dogs, do you know what I mean? That mindset.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  I think you're probably right.

• 36:01Speaker 03

  Do you miss it?

• 36:02Speaker 05

  Very much.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  How, how long did it take you to settle in? Do you, like, do you think you're in a good spot with it now? That you miss it, but not to the point where you go, "Fuck, I wish I was back there"?

• 36:15Speaker 05

  I'm in a better spot. I would say I still miss it a lot. Doing the media stuff helps you stay involved with it to a degree.

• 36:27Speaker 05

  But I definitely miss being in a locker room, being around a group of guys, you know, competing. Yeah, for sure. How are you doing with retirement?

• 36:38Speaker 03

  Well, I thought I was doing all right. Like, the first like six months felt like the honeymoon period. It was like, oh, great, I get to spend all the time with the family. And then I was sort of like, "Uh, hang on, where is everyone? I'm not seeing everyone on a day to day basis, I've not got this schedule."

• 36:56Speaker 05

  Yes. Oh my gosh.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  Be here, wear that, do this. I didn't have that feeling anymore of like, I know I'm going to go into work, graft, and have a great time.

• 37:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Whether it was shit or good, we would be in it together and it would just be great crack.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  And then I was like, "Oh", and I struggled for a good, I'd say another a year, and it's only like the last six months that I went, "Right,

• 37:27Speaker 03

  I need a, I need some sort of schedule and structure in my life."

• 37:30Speaker 05

  Well, yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  So I, I've always loved the gym, even playing, loved that. And I'd sort of given up on that and then just went, "Right, I'm going to do three days on, one day off, three days on, every morning, five o'clock, went and found this gym and that's my schedule, that's the bit that I'm getting it."

• 37:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, the schedule thing is very relatable. Like, when you're, when you're told for your whole life to wake up here, go to practice here, go to meetings here, this is your weekly routine, then it slips away.

• 38:00Speaker 05

  You got to find a way to kind of get that organization back.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  I can compare it to Brooks in Shawshank Redemption where you become institutionalized because we did it for so long and you're like, "Oh, okay, what could I do now to replace that? Because I clearly have learned that I need some of it."

• 38:14Speaker 05

  For sure.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  But keeping busy, like you said, like trying to pretend to be a psychiatrist is really helping with me stand on top of that.

• 38:21Speaker 05

  I'm having one of the best, probably the best psychiatric session I've ever had right now with you, Joe.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  That's a quote, we put that out there.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  And as a podcast?

• 38:37Speaker 02

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• 39:36Speaker 03

  Streaming October 30th on Paramount Plus.

• 39:39Speaker 06

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  You're having a midlife crisis.

• 39:45Speaker 06

  I'm not ready for that.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  He's back.

• 39:48Speaker 06

  I'm older. I'm wiser.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  And sharper than ever.

• 39:53Speaker 06

  Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Dexter Resurrection. New season October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 40:06Speaker 04

  Okay, Jason, well, while you're here in the UK.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:09Speaker 04

  With the NFL, we wanna sort of find out your own draft pick of British stuff versus American stuff. We're gonna see which you prefer on various different categories. So if you're up for it, first thing that comes to your head, whatever you think, full English versus pancakes for breakfast?

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh. I do love a full English breakfast. I'm a big fan of like the little tomato, the beans.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Black pudding?

• 40:36Speaker 05

  I like white pudding, to be honest with you, more.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 40:39Speaker 05

  But I do like the black pudding.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  White pudding's a deep cut. No one goes to the... That is like, that's, that's like a B-side. No one goes for white pudding. Diners or pubs?

• 40:49Speaker 05

  I'm pubs.

• 40:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  It's pubs.

• 40:50Speaker 04

  Pubs.

• 40:51Speaker 05

  I do like... Diners are great, though. I don't wanna...

• 40:55Speaker 04

  What is the culture of it? So is there a pub culture of people just going to the pubs, seeing who's there, hanging out?

• 41:00Speaker 05

  Well, that's the same thing with the diner, which is why it's comparable. So diners, diners are usually named after people or streets, right? Like you have the, and they're very local establishments, usually one-on-one pieces. So you tend to see the same people coming in and out of them. But I would say the main function of a diner is that it is a piece of like the local, like, community.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  It is a pub.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting fact for you on why pubs are called what they're called. So British pubs are always called the Red Lion or the Black Horse or something like that, was because in sort of medieval times, no one could read, but they wanted to know which pub to go to.

• 41:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 04

  So they just draw something that was sort of familiar to them. So like, oh, everyone knows what a white swan is, let's call it the White Swan. Or everyone knows what a red lion is. So it's why it's always that sort of like...

• 41:47Speaker 05

  I never knew that.

• 41:47Speaker 04

  Iconography of stuff that medieval mind would be able to know. So like the bell or the crown or something like that.

• 41:52Speaker 03

  What about the six bells?

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, that works.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. Sausage roll or corn dog?

• 42:03Speaker 05

  I think I might go sausage roll on this.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  So are you American?

• 42:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  Is it...

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  We'll see, we'll see what we keep coming up.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  Cricket or cricket or baseball?

• 42:13Speaker 05

  Baseball.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Okay, we've got one.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Fuck off, mate.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, not even close.

• 42:16Speaker 03

  No, no, I'm serious. Fuck off.

• 42:18Speaker 05

  I do wanna know more about cricket.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  No, I wouldn't bother. That, that, what, that...

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Now I'm coming to my own. Here we go.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  I would love to do, not the, not the new version of cricket. I wanna see a proper, like, five-day, like, cricket match.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  Okay, what would you feel, how do you feel about a five-day test match that you've committed to, and on the last day, it ends as a draw?

• 42:41Speaker 05

  I mean...

• 42:43Speaker 03

  That's five days and there's not a winner?

• 42:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wouldn't feel good about it. That's, that's not...

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it's about the friends you make along the way, and it's about the, the analysis and the intricacies of the tactics. We would have a great time.

• 42:55Speaker 05

  Why, why would it end in a draw? Why do I not just have some type of like way to make sure that somebody wins?

• 43:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean... Come on, cricket boy.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Well, cricket, it feels like a... Cricket boy feels like a racial slur, even though it's not. I don't know, you know what I mean? It does, feels like it.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  There is, yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  It's not, it's not. All of a sudden, you think it's not. It feels like it.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Right, um, you've moved straight into broadcasted and carried on with New Heights. When did you start that? At the end, a year before you...

• 43:31Speaker 05

  So the year that we started that documentary, which would have been 2022 is the year that we started New Heights, yeah. Which also was the year that I played my brother in the Super Bowl, yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  And then what did it feel like? Cause it's massive, but you're this big media personality now. You're sort of, you'd, I'd describe you as maybe a rookie in it still? You're still in the infancy of it all? How's that feel? Is it like refreshing that you're like, oh, I'm learning all this new stuff or experiencing all these new things now?

• 43:59Speaker 05

  In that way, it is fun, right? You're, you're venturing into new territory and you're learning things again and you're, you feel like, uh, there's a lot of improvement happening very quickly. And you're getting to try things that you've never been able to try because you've been so focused on one specific thing, being football. So yeah, I, I think there is a side of it that's very exhilarating. I also like the podcast. What's really nice about that and doing the rugby and different things, you get to create and like think of things and be spontaneous and a lot of that, you're not able to do when you're structured to having a job in the NFL for an entire career.

• 44:43Speaker 05

  So that, that has been a lot of fun, yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 04

  That, that hungry dogs mentality feels so like ingrained in you from, from all the years playing football. Is that like a template that's gone straight onto all of the, the media stuff of like, let's prove everyone wrong, let's get better and better as well?

• 44:58Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't, I don't know that it's thought of, thought out as much like that, but I do think that there's, there's a degree of, uh, I think that mindset that stays with you for sure, yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  You're, um, you're a big family man.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  You got four kids?

• 45:15Speaker 05

  Four.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  Four girls?

• 45:17Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Obviously, your wife, big supporter of yours throughout your career.

• 45:21Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Was she ready for you to retire? Like, was that part of the decision-making as well that you were like, I need to be at home more, I need to spend more time with these?

• 45:33Speaker 05

  Well, that was certainly a part of, I think, when you start having kids, you wanna be there and you wanna be, you know, you wanna be a dad. Like, I think that's the greatest gift any kid can have is a present father, like, and a present mother. But unfortunately, fathers are usually the issue in that equation.

• 45:52Speaker 05

  And that's something that I really love doing and wanted to make sure that I was spending the time and doing that. But she did never, she never pushed me into it. And in some ways, after retiring, she was like, you know, it was nice having the structure of a football season and like knowing what the day was gonna look like and, you know, because when you're off and doing all these things, yeah, you're less busy, but because it's so unstructured, sometimes it feels more busy because it's kind of more chaotic. So in some ways, I think she wouldn't have minded if I kept playing.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Did you find it harder being a good football player or trying to be a good dad?

• 46:36Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, Joe.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Cause I can tell you right now, I find it fucking hard trying to be a good dad, even though that's what I want to be, like, that's the biggest thing.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  I found it so much easier because there was, you could objectively see things that you achieve along the way to be a good rugby player.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  I think, that's a really good...

• 46:58Speaker 03

  Lift this weight, lift that thing, and you achieve that. You do this fitness, do that fit, you do that skill, you do that, you're like, it's...

• 47:04Speaker 05

  I think it's a great way to put it, yeah. I do think it's harder to be, I feel like being a great football player really, it wasn't easy, but it was definitely easier than being a great father. And I think the tangibleness of it, like you were just saying, probably makes a big difference in it. And then also like, you know, there's all sorts of things happen to me where I'm like, I don't know if I'm fucking these kids up or not right now. I feel like I'm doing a good job. Should I have made her eat all of her food at the breakfast table? Should I really put my foot down on this?

• 47:34Speaker 03

  You're always second guessing yourself.

• 47:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  As a parent, you were obviously brought up with that underdog mindset. Your mom's quoted as saying like, if you want him to do something, tell him he can't. How'd you get the balance right with telling your kid? Like, will you want them to be underdogs to a degree? Or do you wanna, you sort of give them what you didn't have?

• 47:55Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean? It's quite...

• 47:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. No, yeah, that's something I've thought a lot about because the reality is we have, my kids are gonna grow up in very different situations than when I grew up in. But yeah, I'm gonna do my best to try and instill that underdog, humble, you know, no matter how big, fast, strong, smart you think you are, there's somebody out there that's bigger, faster, stronger, smarter than you are. And you're gonna have to work and outwork them if you ever wanna beat them. And I think that that's something that I'm definitely gonna instill in them.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  What does success look like to you now? Like, you're obviously as a football player, you're like, I wanna win a Super Bowl. And then you go, I wanna win two, I wanna win three or whatever. That's like a goal.

• 48:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  What's your goal now?

• 48:42Speaker 05

  That's a good question.

• 48:48Speaker 05

  Probably should set up some goals.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  Seriously?

• 48:51Speaker 05

  Seriously.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  Like, you've just been riding the wave so far and haven't really...

• 48:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Or have you got to a point in your life, you go, well, maybe I don't need to have a big goal like that again, and it's just the small ones that you're just constantly enjoying?

• 49:07Speaker 05

  Well, even when I played, I never really focused on the big goals. It was always just focusing on...

• 49:12Speaker 03

  Week to week.

• 49:12Speaker 05

  What am I doing this week? What am I doing this day? How can I maximize this

• 49:19Speaker 05

  weightlifting session? How can I prepare better for this opponent? Whatever it is.

• 49:26Speaker 05

  So I'm, I'm still probably more focused on that. I think really just day by day, I'm trying to be better at whatever I'm doing. So if it's Monday night football as an analyst, I go out there and you know, what, what went well, what didn't go well? How can I do a better job at you know, studying before, maybe not being more concise and hitting like a tighter point? How can I make sure that, uh, you know, I, I'm prioritizing soccer practice or, you know, I sat down with Wyatt the other day and doing the math homework. It's like, all right, how can I make her better at adding to 10? Because this should be an easier skill than we're executing on right now.

• 50:11Speaker 05

  So I think all that stuff, yeah, yeah.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  I think you'll be all right. Well, I mean, I'm, don't take my word for it. In fact, don't take my word for anything.

• 50:20Speaker 05

  I feel like, I appreciate that. I do. I think the not feeling like it's gonna be all right, I feel like is my strength.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  Keep driving you on.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Just can't let go of it, can it? Expect the worst. If something good happens, there you go.

• 50:40Speaker 04

  It's interesting though, because we all maybe have our own specific baseline level of stress that we need in order to operate at a good level. I always thought everything in life is about reducing stress, but, but it's not really. I think we need a level of stress or something to to, to drive us to get there.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  It's not about reducing, is it? It's about adapting to, learning to cope with it.

• 51:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. I, I feel really uncomfortable when I'm not stressed.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  You feel stressed?

• 51:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, like Jeff Stoutland, you know, off in the line coach I played for, he would always talk about like, I feel uncomfortable being comfortable.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 05

  I, I need to be uncomfortable to be at my best. And I, I feel like that's the way it was in football and that's the way I kind of feel at all times. Like if I, if nothing is happening, it feels off.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Without getting outside your comfort zone?

• 51:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  You don't grow.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  No, it's impossible, right?

• 51:33Speaker 03

  You don't, you don't grow. I always compare it to jib or whatever. You put your body under stress in order to grow.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  To damage it and then grow is in the same way you get in, you go and do something you're not used to doing, that you're scared to go and do.

• 51:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  You, the more you do it, the less scared you are doing it again. And then you've grown as a person because you've either learnt how to, uh, do that thing that you've tried, or you've learnt that you can't do it. And you've learnt something new, and then you can move on to something else. So.

• 52:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  Why the fuck did we get so deep then?

• 52:08Speaker 04

  I don't know. It's quite good though, isn't it?

• 52:10Speaker 05

  It is very good.

• 52:11Speaker 04

  Hmm. It's uncomfortable, but it's, it's good.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Yo, that's really good.

• 52:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I tried to find something.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  Tie it up, throw it away.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  Jason, thank you for coming in to the doctor's office. Now, you have always been in situations where you can find a reason to be the underdog, because there was always a difference from you to your opponent. But we're in a unique situation here where you are sat opposite someone who is like for like. Joe Marler is a former professional athlete. Joe Marler has a podcast. Joe Marler is a family man. Joe Marler is as broad and as tall as you. You're the same guy?

• 52:52Speaker 03

  We're, we're slightly stretching.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  That. I'm at least six inches smaller than him.

• 52:58Speaker 04

  Okay, sure.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  Fine.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  Sure. But for, I mean, the audio listener will have no idea.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  On audio, they're both seven foot. But would you be willing to complete the look?

• 53:09Speaker 04

  So that you are completely equal?

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 53:11Speaker 04

  We have.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  We're doing the mohawk.

• 53:13Speaker 04

  Custom, the mohawk?

• 53:15Speaker 03

  We're not doing the mohawk.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  I don't think, unless you want to do the mohawk. I was thinking, this custom made replica jacket, will you become Dr. Kelsey for the final exercise?

• 53:24Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 53:25Speaker 04

  Round of applause for Dr. Kelsey, everybody! Wow!

• 53:28Speaker 05

  This is awesome. How do I look, Joe?

• 53:31Speaker 04

  Wow, look at that.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  Whoa, there.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Incredible, it suits you.

• 53:37Speaker 05

  This is a nice jacket.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Okay, there we go. It's like looking in the mirror, isn't it?

• 53:42Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 53:45Speaker 04

  So these two physical beasts are gonna go head to head in the only sport not to be commercialized yet. We're talking about a thumb war.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  You see the size of his mitts?

• 53:58Speaker 05

  No, your mitts are bigger than mine. Look at these sausages.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  Massive hands.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  It is sausage rolls versus corn dogs.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  Your thumb is bigger than mine, Joe.

• 54:09Speaker 04

  Jason, how do you fancy your chances?

• 54:11Speaker 05

  Joe's got some strong hands, man.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Joe, how do you fancy your chances?

• 54:14Speaker 03

  I just want to clarify the rules of engagement.

• 54:16Speaker 04

  Yep, absolutely. I've got some, um, I've got some, some laws outlined here. Elbows on the desk at all time, please. Your hands clasped on each other, and it's only your thumbs that you're warring with. Uh, I think you know how to engage, don't you, Joe?

• 54:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do, but I just want to clarify, do you do the, do you do the chant before?

• 54:33Speaker 05

  One, two, three, four.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  I declare a thumb war. Touch, bow, fight.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  Touch, bow?

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Yes, that'd be a touch, bow, fight. Level of respect.

• 54:42Speaker 05

  Perfect.

• 54:43Speaker 04

  Let's get rid of the file and the Newton's cradle, shall we?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 54:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I can do it.

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Well, you'll have to, because, um, Jason won't engage my hand. I don't know if you can tell, but his knuckles have gone white from where he's gripping it.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  Okay, take it away when you're ready, guys.

• 54:57Speaker 05

  One, two, three, four. I declare a thumb war. Touch, bow, fight.

• 55:07Speaker 05

  We gotta get the higher ground here.

• 55:08Speaker 03

  You've got a big thumb.

• 55:10Speaker 05

  It's been broken in war.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  Oh my gosh, they're going for each other. We've had a few attacks.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  Elbows on the table, please.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  It's a strong thumb.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  There was a moment where he tried to get elbow over the table, but oh my gosh, Jason nearly had Joe's.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  His thumbs are too big!

• 55:27Speaker 04

  Jason has had Joe on the ropes for quite some time now. He's holding it, he's holding it, he's holding it.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  One, two, three!

• 55:37Speaker 04

  Jason Kelce, everybody!

• 55:41Speaker 03

  Well, uh, what can I say? Um, I failed.

• 55:47Speaker 05

  That was fun.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  I failed and, uh, I'll be straight with you. I couldn't give a fuck because I failed against you.

• 55:56Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  And that's made me really happy. So thank you. Um,

• 56:02Speaker 03

  I also want to say well played, really well played. From the start to the end, I've really enjoyed listening to you, the way you articulate things, uh, the humour that you, you attack things with.

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Our attempt at giving you an underdog withdrawal syndrome. Um, I think there'll always be that, that little element in you that you'll need to prove someone wrong.

• 56:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Um, to keep you, to keep you going, keep that fire in your belly. So that complacency doesn't become your friend. Um, and I think that's a good thing. You've been fucking brilliant. Thank you so much. Uh, before you leave?

• 56:43Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  We give every patient a badge. Jake, what have we gone with?

• 56:47Speaker 04

  No, two badges are the same. The design is different, the, the, the message is different. And for you, we've gone with a picture of a dog, still hungry, still hungry.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Still hungry.

• 56:56Speaker 04

  And that's for you.

• 56:57Speaker 03

  That's great.

• 56:58Speaker 04

  Take that home with you.

• 57:01Speaker 05

  Thank you, Jake.

• 57:06Speaker 05

  Which one's the best?

• 57:07Speaker 03

  Probably the one that isn't laced with ketamine.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  I don't know if there is one that isn't.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  I thought we put one in there.

• 57:14Speaker 04

  Hmm, yeah, that's a lucky dip.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  Well.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  Oh, it's gonna be a long journey home.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  First guest we've had who could actually take the plastic off like it.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  That's fine. Jason Kelce, everybody!

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Thank you, Janet. We'll see you out. Jason Kelce.

• 57:38Speaker 05

  Thank you, Doctor.

• 57:38Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Jason Kelce, everybody!

• 57:46Speaker 04

  Brilliant.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  If you want to join the doctor's waitlist, then please subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Instagram, at We'll See You Now Show. Remember, unless it's not clear enough already, I'm not a real doctor. And if you need any professional help, you'll find a link to great support services on our Instagram. Jake? I've, I've been Joe Marler.

• 58:07Speaker 04

  I've been Jake Barwaj.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  And then?

• 58:10Speaker 04

  And then we've collectively been Joe Marler, We'll See You Now. See you next time.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  Next time. Bye bye.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  Bye.