JOCKO PODCAST 16: MACHETE SEASON, BJJ COMPETITION MINDSET, INJURIES, SCHEDULES WITH NEW KIDS, ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QorFNL9CRrU 0:00:00 - Opening 0:07:55 - Book review, "Machete Season: The Killers in Rawanda Speak" 1:17:40 - Onnit / Jocko Podcast Info and Support 1:20:55 - BJJ Competition mindset and training for Competition. 1:25:44 - Taking advantage of time off training. 1:34:30 - Dealing with orders you don't agree with. 1:45:35 - What Supplements do Jocko and Echo take? 1:49:35 - Dealing with training troops in hard and tragic situations. 1:56:55 - Advice on workout schedule with newborn kids. 2:15:39 - What are the right questions to ask? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 16 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  We

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  we couldn't have been more excited.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  It was a real mission. None of us had been on a real mission before, except for our LPO, our leading, which is our leading petty officer who was in the first Gulf War and our platoon commander, who was in on the Grenada invasion and fought at the radio tower. Those guys had this small amount of combat experience, but at the time for us, that was a world apart from what we had because the rest of us had zero. This was the 90s. There was no war going on.

• 0:59Jocko Willink?

  And so now here we were with a real mission on deck. 1994, I think I was about 23 years old. I'm in my second SEAL platoon and at the time,

• 1:14Jocko Willink?

  being in a SEAL platoon was literally the sole purpose and focus of my life. It was my whole world. And that's what most of my platoon mates were like as well. That's, that's, that's what we were. And this was an awesome platoon, a great platoon, the ARG Alpha platoon.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  And as far as having tight friends and a brotherhood inside of a platoon, this was definitely one of the best that I was ever in, if not the best. And all of us were just a hundred percent about being in a SEAL platoon and it was the world to us. And we didn't care about, we didn't care about anything else really, not politics, domestic politics or international politics. We weren't sitting around and reading newspapers and we barely even watched the news at this time. We were deployed on a ship. There was no internet. We were, we were troopers.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, we were errand boys, as Colonel Kurt says in Apocalypse Now. We didn't know about the policy, but we sure as hell would enforce it. And so, we had this mission, and we were fired up. We were, like I said, we were on a ship, and we were off the coast of Africa. And there was something going on in one of the countries there. And during the last deployment that SEALs did on a ship at this time, it was some of our fellow SEALs, guys that we knew, had gone into Somalia. And so that was a real mission. And we kind of thought, maybe this will be our opportunity.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  And probably seven or eight months prior to this, the Battle of Mogadishu had taken place, which is, you know, where the movie Black Hawk Down came from. So this was, this was Africa. This was like our chance to get into some kind of combat. And we started hearing more about the situation, where they might send us. And it looked like we were going to go in and provide some kind of security. And then it looked like we were going to go in and maybe help some Americans that were there and get them out. And then it looked like we might go in and reinforce some kind of UN troops. And like, a bunch of missions, and they kind of changed as the situation developed. And, and, and we started reading about what was happening

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  and what we were going to be going to do, and, and what, what the situation was there on the ground. And I, I didn't understand it at first. But there was people killing each other. By the thousands. By, by the tens of thousands. By the hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands of people were being killed. But it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a war that, you know, I had read about or I'd seen in the movies. They weren't shooting each other with guns or dropping bombs on each other.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  They were, they were using machetes. Like a, like a horror movie. Hundreds, hundreds of thousands of people being butchered.

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  And what was it all about?

• 4:51Jocko Willink?

  It was a tribal difference. That's barely distinguishable to us. I mean, it's barely distinguishable for them.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  The country was Rwanda. And the event came to be known as the Rwandan genocide. A mass murder primarily of Tutsi tribesmen by the rival Hutu clan.

• 5:26Jocko Willink?

  Now, war

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  war is something that I can rationalize, right? Maybe I shouldn't be able to do that. But I can. I mean, there's some kind of wrong or evil in the world that needs to be stood up against. You know, is it fascism? Is it tyranny? Is it terrorism? It's forces of darkness. And they're pitted against forces of light, forces of freedom and democracy.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  And as I say all the time, war is hell. And it should be a last resort when everything else has failed.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  And that being said, war is necessary sometimes to stop evil. And sometimes it's the only way to stop evil.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  But this this idea here, this situation where people are killing each other in a mob type scenario, and they're literally doing it like a horror movie. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like a horror movie that seems too insane and too bloody to even be believable. You take the worst horror movie you can imagine with the worst plotline.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  And this makes less sense.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  It wouldn't even be believable if it was a horror movie. It's too much. It's too violent and too ruthless and there's too much to even comprehend or understand.

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  And this is, I mean, I, I hope

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  that this is somewhere at the limit

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  of the evil that human beings are capable of.

• 7:41Jocko Willink?

  You, you hear me talk about the darkness, the evil in the world?

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  Well,

• 7:56Jocko Willink?

  this is it.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to the book now.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  The book is called Machete Season.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  The Killers in Rwanda Speak.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  During that killing season, we rose earlier than usual to eat lots of meat. We went up to the soccer field at around nine or 10. We would go off on the attack.

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  Rule number one was to kill. There was no rule number two. It was an organization without complications. The judge told everyone, everyone there, that from then on, we were to do nothing but kill Tootsies. Well, we understood. That was a final plan. The killing of every Tootsie without exception.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  It was simply said, and it was simple to understand.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  There were some who asked if there were any priorities. The judge answered sternly. There is no need to ask how to begin. The only worthwhile plan is to start straight ahead into the bush and right now, without hanging back behind any more questions.

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  When you get right down to it, it is a gross exaggeration to say we organized ourselves. The killings began without much planning. The only regulation was to keep going till the end, maintain a satisfactory pace, spare no one, and loot what we found. It was impossible to screw up.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the craziest things about this book. Again, the book is called Machete Season. It's the killers in Rwanda speak. So this author,

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  Jean Hetzfeld, he went into the prison where these people are now being kept to talk to them about what they did, and it's their own words.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  In the preface to the book, just to give you a little bit of background, ours is appallingly an age of genocide. But even so, what happened in Rwanda in the spring of 1994 stands out in several ways. In a tiny, landlocked African country smaller than the state of Maryland, some 800,000 people were hacked to death, one by one, by their neighbors. The women, men, and children who were slaughtered were of the same race and shared the same language, customs, and confession, they were Roman Catholic, as those who eagerly slaughtered them.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  I was seriously considering not doing this podcast. And it's... This book, Sam Harris, acquaintance of mine, who does podcasts, who I was on his podcast. Very smart guy, brilliant guy. And, you know, he sent me an email and said, "Hey, Jocko, check out this book."

• 11:42Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, he said it's about the Rwandan genocide. And I immediately said, "Hey, you know, I was there. I mean, I wasn't on the ground, but we were there waiting to go in." So I immediately knew what he was talking about. He's, you know, he basically said it's by the killers. And so I immediately ordered it on Amazon. And as soon as I got it and I just read it. And at first I was excited, you know, thinking, "Oh, this is really, this is gonna be impactful." But as I went deeper and deeper into it, I started saying to myself, "Maybe I don't do this podcast."

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I don't do it. Because like I said, it's almost too much. I think it is too much.

• 12:31Jocko Willink?

  And for that very reason,

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna do it. Because we can't, we must not deny that evil exists and that humans can be evil.

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  And as the preface of the book continues, "Our obligation, and it is an obligation, is to take what human beings are capable of doing to one another, not spontaneously, crimes of this order are never spontaneous, but when mobilized to think of other human beings, people who were their school friends, neighbors, coworkers, and fellow parishioners, as not human beings at all. And when organized for and directed to the task of slaughter."

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  For the issue finally is not judgment. It is understanding.

• 13:38Jocko Willink?

  To make the effort to understand what happened in Rwanda is a painful task that we have no right to shirk. It is part of being a moral adult.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  So now let's listen to these

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  people.

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  Then that might be a stretch. But let's listen to what these people had to say.

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  "At the beginning, we were too fired up to think. Later on, we were too used to it. In our condition, it meant nothing to us to think we were busy cutting our neighbors down to the last one. It became a goes without saying. They had already stopped being good neighbors of long standing, the ones who handed around the Urwaga can at the cabaret. Urwaga is like a beer, it's a banana beer. Since they wouldn't be there anymore. They had become people to throw away, so to speak. They were no longer what they had been, and neither were we. They did not bother us, and the past did not bother us, because nothing bothered us."

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  And so the Tutsis were driven immediately, they tried to escape to this area that they called the Marshes, which are outside, you know, the hills, the people lived in the hills, and they tried to escape the Mar- the Tutsis tried to escape to the Marshes. And another one of the murderers says, "Kindness too was forbidden in the Marshes. The Marshes left no room for exceptions. To forget doubt, we had meanness and ruthlessness in killing. And a job to do and do well, that's all."

• 15:30Jocko Willink?

  Some changed color from the hunting. Their limbs were muddy, their clothes were splattered, even their faces were not black in the same way. They became grayish from everything they had done. A little layer of stink covered us too, but we didn't care. We no longer saw a human being when we turned up a tootsie in the swamps. I mean, a person like us, sharing similar thoughts and feelings. The hunt was savage, the hunters were savage, the prey was savage. Savagery took over the mind.

• 16:13Jocko Willink?

  The more we killed, the more greediness urged us on. Greediness, if left unpunished, it never lets you go. You could see it in our eyes, bugged out by the killings.

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  It was even dangerous some. There were those that came back in the bloodstained shirts, brandishing their machetes, shrieking like madmen, saying they wanted to grab everything. We had to calm them down with drinks and soothing words, because they could turn ugly for those around them. Man can get used to killing, if he kills on and on. He can even become a beast without noticing it. Some threatened one another when they had no more tootsies under the machete. In their faces, you could see the need to kill.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Me, I was not scared of death. In a way, I forgot I was killing live people. I no longer thought about either life or death. But the blood struck terror into me. It stank and dripped. At night, I'd tell myself, "After all, I am a man full of blood. All this spurting blood will bring me catastrophe, a curse." Death did not alarm me, but that overflow of blood, that, yes, a lot.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  And one of the things that they talk about in the book is in this, in this part of, of the continent.

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  The, the people, they use a machete for everything. So they, they do their, they cut down brush with it. They slaughter the animals with it. They, they cook their dinners with it. They do everything with a machete. So everybody's just sort of, it's, it's their, it's their, it's their iPhone, right? It's their iPhone. They, everyone has, it's their smartphone. That's what they use for everything like we do in America. We use a smartphone. They use a machete for everything. That's how they get their food. That's how they clear out their house. It's how they build. I mean, it's everything they do. They do with a machete. So everyone's very comfortable with a machete.

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  "A boy with the strength in his arms to hold the machete firmly, if his brother or father brought him along in the group, he imitated and grew used to killing. Youth no longer hampered him. He became accustomed to blood. Killing became an ordinary activity since our elders and everyone did it.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  Or a young boy might even prove more at ease with it than an experienced oldster because death touched him farther away. Given the novelty of the circumstances and his young age, death seemed less important to him. He saw it as belonging to an older generation. He shrugged off his perils and considered it a distraction.

• 19:24Jocko Willink?

  It became a madness that went on all by itself.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  You raced ahead or you got out of the way to escape being run over, but you followed the crowd.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  The one who rushed off machete in hand, he listened to nothing anymore. He forgot everything. First of all, his level of intelligence. Doing the same thing every day meant we didn't have to think about what we were doing. We went out and came back without having a single thought. We hunted because it was the order of the day until the day was over. Our arms ruled our heads. In any case, our heads no longer had their say."

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  We became more and more cruel, more and more calm, more and more bloody. But we did not see that we were becoming more and more killers. The more we cut, the more cutting became child's play to us. For a few, it turned into treat, if I may say so.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  That's one of the things they do is they use some, some words like "cut", and what they mean is slaughter and murder. But they use kind of a term that's less direct, is a euphemism.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  At the start of the killings, we worked fast and skimmed along because we were eager. In the middle of the killings, we killed casually. We killed to keep the job going. Some were tired of these blood assignments. Others amused themselves by torturing tootsies, who had made them sweat day after day.

• 21:20Jocko Willink?

  Since I was killing often, I began to feel it did not mean anything to me. It gave me no pleasure. I knew I would not be punished. I was killing without consequences. I adapted without a problem.

• 21:35Jocko Willink?

  I left every morning free and easy, in a hurry to get going. I saw that the work and the results were good for me, that's all.

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  During the killings, I no longer considered anything in particular in the tootsie, except that the person had to be done away with.

• 21:57Jocko Willink?

  I want to make it clear that from the first gentleman I killed to the last, I was not sorry about a single one.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  Now, as I said, it was difficult for... to tell who's who, right? They had the same culture, they had the same language, they looked the same. And you might be wondering, "How did they know who was who?" Well, the author explains that somewhat here. And it is just...

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'll go to the book.

• 22:47Jocko Willink?

  "After the genocide, many foreigners wondered how the huge number of Hutu killers recognized their Tutsi victims in the upheaval of the massacres. Since Rwandans of both ethnic groups speak the same language with no distinctive differences, live in the same places, and are not always physically recognizable by distinctive characteristics. The answer is simple. The killers did not have to pick out their victims. They knew them personally. Everyone knows everything in a village."

• 23:27Jocko Willink?

  So, they didn't have to guess. They didn't have to identify them by a different skin color or by a different facial structure or by a different language. They knew them.

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  "A teacher and a survivor of the marshes confirms:

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  "The principal and the inspector of schools in my district participated in the killings with nail-studded clubs. Teachers, priests, the burgomaster, a subprefect, a doctor. They all killed with their own hands. They wore pressed cotton trousers. They had no trouble sleeping. They traveled around in vehicles or on light motorcycles. These well-educated people were calm and they rolled up their sleeves to get a good grip on their machetes."

• 24:32Jocko Willink?

  For someone who has spent his life teaching the humanities, as I have, such criminals are a fearful mystery.

• 24:42Jocko Willink?

  So like the priests, the burgomaster, which is like a

• 24:50Jocko Willink?

  kind of a German name of someone that's a political person, political magistrate in a town, or a sub prefect. A sub prefect is someone that's in command, someone of authority, especially in the Catholic Church. So these people,

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  with their nice shirts and nice pants, were rolling up their sleeves to get a good grip on their machetes.

• 25:15Jocko Willink?

  At first, the killing was obligatory. Afterward, we got used to it.

• 25:22Jocko Willink?

  We became naturally cruel.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  We no longer needed encouragements, or fines, to kill, or even orders, or advice. Discipline was relaxed because it wasn't necessary anymore.

• 25:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't know anyone who was struck because he refused to kill. I know of one case of punishment by death, a special case, a woman. Some people cut her to punish her husband, who had refused to kill. But she was in fact a Tutsi. Afterward, the husband took part without whining. In fact, he was one of the busiest in the marshes. So these tribal, the Hutus and the Tutsis would marry each other. Just like, you know, you put human beings living in the same village, you know, but you end up marrying somebody from the other tribe.

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  And if you didn't go with the system, you were getting murdered.

• 26:28Jocko Willink?

  In the evening, we had to report to the leader about exactly what we had killed. Many boasted for fear of being taunted or frowned on. That was also a good reason why we did not bury the bodies. Someone suspected of faking could guide the verifiers to the truth.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  Anyone who had the idea of not killing for a day could get out of it no problem. But anyone with the idea of not killing at all could not let on, or he himself would be killed while others watched. Voicing disagreement out loud was fatal on the spot.

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  So we don't know if people had that idea.

• 27:16Jocko Willink?

  In the evening, after the killings, there was time for friendship and meeting friends brought us light hearts. We would chat about our days, we shared drinks, we ate. We no longer counted up what we had killed, but what it was that it would bring us.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  The killings had made us gossipy and greedy. So that's one of the things that drove, was they got to, you go kill a family, you take whatever you want from them. Including their land, including all their property, everything.

• 27:49Jocko Willink?

  So that's what they talk about, and they become, they become greedy.

• 27:55Jocko Willink?

  And then at a certain point, the authorities no longer had the ability to plan or to channel. Their orders fell on deaf ears. The massacres had become extraordinary, beyond all reason.

• 28:10Jocko Willink?

  The keenest ones, when they killed, grabbed the possessions of the dead. They wanted everything right away, not even stopping to finish off their victims. The looting excited them so much, they needed no advice or encouragement. Their greed spread to those who followed, who went crazy in turn.

• 28:32Jocko Willink?

  We began the day by killing. We ended the day by looting. It was the rule to kill going out and loot coming back. We killed in teams, but we looted every man for himself, or in small groups of friends.

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  Those who killed a lot had less time to pillage. But since they were feared, they would catch up because of their power.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  So, hey, if I go out and kill the most people, I don't have that much time to loot. That's okay, because everyone's scared of me.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they kind of let you.

• 29:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  Some killers claimed girls in the marshes. That satisfied them. And made them neglect looting. They figured they'd catch up the next day.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  Now here's a.

• 29:36Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is going back to the. The author, this is not direct quotes from, from the killers, but the author's. Kind of telling a story. About a situation that happened. Um, one of the murderers witnessed the passage of armored cars. So the international community, community. Like you, you heard me talking about the fact that I was on a ship with SEALs with Marines that could have done something here, but we didn't do anything. Actually, the Marines went in and provided a little, a tiny bit of aid. I think they sent 30 guys in. But there was nothing, nothing to what. It did have, you know, a very minimalistic impact.

• 30:17Jocko Willink?

  But what happened was civilized people left.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  And. So they see armored cars coming. And they caused it here. Now this is going to one of the killers talking. They caused a big panic among, among us. Who are already roving in the streets, heating themselves up with sudden bursts of gunfire. Some of them shouted, "The whites are here. Others will come. They have terrible weapons. It's all over for us." When they saw the convoy disappear in the dust without even a little stop for curiosity. Or a drink on the main street, they celebrated. With some Primus, which is gin and alcohol, and shot off the cartridges in their guns as a sign of relief.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  You could see they felt saved. They were rid of the last stumbling block, so to speak.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  At the same time, in Kigali, which is the capital. Whites were leaving the embassies, offices, monasteries and universities via road convoys to neighboring countries. And an emergency airlift operating out of the airport.

• 31:26Jocko Willink?

  Very few foreigners sought refugee, sought refuge in guarded villas, but no foreigners were left.

• 31:35Jocko Willink?

  And now this is, again, this is the. Commentary from the author.

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  Not one foreigner, priest, service corps volunteer, diplomat, NGO worker, none can provide a convincing reason for this immediate and astonishing flight during the opening hours of the killings. In any case, neither danger nor panic can justify such haste. The most telling explanation I have heard so far comes from Claudine Caiste, a farmer and soup and survivor on the hill. When she says, reversing our proverb, "Whites do not want to see what they cannot believe, and they could not believe a genocide,

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  because that is a killing that overwhelms everyone, them as much as the others."

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  And so, they left.

• 32:45Jocko Willink?

  Now...

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  The thing that sparked this, there was a, there was a leader, so there'd been, there'd been a revolutionary, a civil war going on. And it was, the Rwandan civil war had been going on, and it was between the Hutu-led government and the Rwandan Patriotic Front, or the RPF. And so, the, the RPF was largely composed of Tutsis, and a lot of them had fled to Uganda, but now they were, you know, saying, "Hey, let's go back." And there was a bunch of pressure, international pressure on the, on the government, which was led by the president of Rwanda, named Habyar Imane.

• 33:35Jocko Willink?

  So Habyar Imane felt all this pressure, and so they, they made peace. And then what happened was, on April 6th, 1994, an airplane that had, um...

• 33:49Jocko Willink?

  Habiyari Mana in it was shot down and everyone was killed, including him. And that was it. So the Hutu president was killed, but his aircraft was shot down and that was it. Um, and I pulled this little paragraph here from Wikipedia. Genocidal killings began the following day. Soldiers, police and militia quickly executed key Tutsi and moderate Hutu leaders. They were just getting after it. Then erected checkpoints and barricades and used Rwandans national identic- identity cards to systematically kill Tutsis. So in the thirties, they had implemented this system where you would put whatever tribe you were in. Because it was so hard to tell who was who. And they just used those identification cards.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  These forces recruited or pressured Hutu civilians to arm themselves with machetes, clubs, blunt objects, and other weapons to rape, maim, and kill their Tutsi neighbors and to destroy or steal their property.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  But one of the, one of the major influences on the people was radio.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  Was radio. And as leading up to this, you had this situation where they were broadcasting, sort of, I guess, I guess it's what we call hate speech. You know, that's what we call it. Only this was actual hate speech. Going to the book, in the broadcast studios of popular radio stations, Radio Rwanda, the Tutsis were referred to as cockroaches. Announcers, the two best uh known of whom were Simon Binkindi and Kantano, used humorous sketches and songs to call openly for the destruction of the Tutsis.

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  One of the killers remembers, those gen- and actually this guy was a, yeah, he was one of the killers. Those gentlemen were famous artists and great comic virtuosos. What they said was so cleverly put and repeated so offies often, that Tootsies themselves found them funny to listen to. They were clamoring for the massacre of all the cockroaches, but in amusing ways. And for the Tootsies, those witty words were hilarious. So they're actually hearing this and laughing about it. The songs urging all Hootus to get together to wipe out the Tootsies. We laughed out loud at the jokes.

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  And they made this Hootu Ten Commandments, which is basically, it's a document, you look it up on Wikipedia. It's just a document, that's the Ten Commandments. If you marry a Tootsie woman, she should be killed. I mean, it's brutal. Absolutely brutal. And now, this is, this is... I found this piece fascinating, continuing to talk about the, the radio. And this is, this is a statement. And this is interesting, because we're on a podcast.

• 37:14Jocko Willink?

  And, and I listen to podcasts. And I haven't talked about this before. But when I was a kid, I listened to radio shows. And I understood the power of them. I listened to a radio show, and I'll have to look and see where it is now. It was called the Dr. Demento Show. And the Dr. Demento Show was this, it was on like Sunday nights at 10 o'clock on some college radio station in New England. And it would just have various, it was like a variety show. And they'd have a comedic part, and there'd be like a Twilight Zone type thing. But I would sit there,

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  like we do with podcasts now, and I'd put the headphones on, and I'd get in the zone, and I would listen. And you realize, and you realize this when you get into a podcast. You realize there's a certain power to it. There's a certain power to listening to a person. And their voice going into your head.

• 38:19Jocko Willink?

  And there's a, there's a, a piece about this, inside the book, and it just nailed me.

• 38:27Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's a remark made by Serge Daney, who is a, an essayist, and he's talking about the first Gulf War. But what he says about radio, and he would be obviously saying this about podcasts now,

• 38:42Jocko Willink?

  is that radio is far and away the most dangerous of the media. It wields a unique and terrifying power, once the state or an institutional apparatus collapses.

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  It casts off everything that might attenuate or sidetrack the force of words.

• 39:07Jocko Willink?

  In a chaotic situation, radio can prove to be the most efficient tool of democracy, as well as of revolution or fascism, because it penetrates unhindered to the individual's deepest core, anywhere, at, at any moment, immediately, without the necessary and critical distance inherent in the reading of a text or an image.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  So when you listen to a podcast, that's such a great note to explain why radio has so much power. You don't even have to interpret the words. You don't have to interpret an image. The words are going into your head.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  And they use it.

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  They use it in situations like this. And one of the killers said, "Ever since the plane crash," so ever since the president was shot down, "the radio had hammered at us. The foreigners are departing. They had material proof of what we are going to do, and they are leaving. This time around, they are showing no interest in the fate of the Tootsies. We witnessed that flight of the armored cars along the road with our own eyes. Our ears no longer heard murmurs of reproach.

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  For the first time ever, we did not feel we were under the frowning supervision of the whites." Other encouragements followed that assured us of unchecked freedom to complete the task. So we thought, "Good, it's true." The blue helmets did nothing, except an about-face to leave us alone. And if you don't know what blue helmets are, when you're working as a United Nations peacekeeper, they give you a blue helmet. And anybody can fill that role, any, any nation that's part of the UN, Americans fill that role from time to time, but any nation can do it.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  So he's saying that the blue helmets did nothing except an about-face to leave us alone. Why would they come back before it's all over? At that signal, off we went.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  We were certain of killing everyone without drawing evil looks, without getting a scolding from a white or a priest. We joked about it instead of pressing our advantage. We felt too at ease with an unfamiliar job that had gotten off to a good start. But time and laziness played an ugly trick on us. Basically, we became too sure of ourselves, we slowed down, and that overconfidence is what did us in.

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  So, let's hear a little bit about the

• 42:08Jocko Willink?

  the psychological impact of what's happening to the book. Rowdies kept on slaughtering cows after the killings because they couldn't put down their machetes.

• 42:21Jocko Willink?

  During the killings, we had not one wedding, not one baptism, not one soccer match, not one religious service, like Easter. We did not find that kind of celebration interesting anymore, we did not care spit for Sunday silliness. We were dead tired from work, we were getting greedy, we celebrated whenever we felt like it, we drank as much as we wanted, some turned into drunks. Anyone who felt sad about someone he had killed really had to hide his words and his regrets for fear of being seen as an accomplice and being treated roughly.

• 42:59Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes drinkers went mean when they had found no one to kill that day. Others went mean because they had killed too much. You had to show them a smiling face, or watch out.

• 43:19Jocko Willink?

  Different personalities. Some guys are going crazy because they're not killing enough, and some guys are going crazy because they're killing too much.

• 43:32Jocko Willink?

  A youth could hide a girl he had brought back from the marshes, to have her behind a pen, or a clump of bushes. But when he had had enough, or when tongues started wagging, in other words, when people started talking about the fact that he had brought one of these girls back, he had to kill her to avoid a serious penalty.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  We had sessions with girls who were raped in the bush. Nobody dared protest that. Even those who were edgy about it, because they had received blessings in church, for example, told themselves it would change nothing, since the girl was marked for death anyways.

• 44:13Jocko Willink?

  There were two kinds of rapists. Some took the girls and used them until the end, even on the flight to the Congo. They took advantage of the situation to sleep with the prettiest tutsies, and in exchange, showed them a little bit of consideration. Others caught them, just to fool around with, for having sex and drinking. They raped for a little while, and then handed them over to be killed right afterward. There were no orders from the authorities. The two kinds were free to do as they pleased.

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  Now we get into a...

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  A story.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what to call it, other than a story. A travesty, a horror.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  Coming from one of the workers at a...

• 45:12Jocko Willink?

  They had a little, basically a little Christian hospital.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  They surrounded the maternity hospital.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  They ripped down the gates, they simply shot up the locks. They wore very handsome cartridge belts of highly polished leather. But they wanted to avoid wasting bullets.

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  They killed the women with machetes and clubs.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  Whenever one of the more agile girls managed to escape in the commotion and get out a window, she was caught in the gardens.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  When a mama had hidden her child beneath her,

• 46:00Jocko Willink?

  they picked her up first, then cut the child, then cut its mother last. They didn't bother to cut the nursing infants properly.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  They slammed them against the walls to save time, or hurled them alive onto the heaps of corpses.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  That morning, we were more than 300 women and children. That evening in the garden, there were only five women left, spared because they were lucky to have been born Hutu.

• 46:46Jocko Willink?

  Now, the author

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  goes into a statement here about

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  about a tradition in war-torn areas where, you know, there's some sort of friendship or there's some, some love that, that makes people do things that are outside the bounds of what the norm, of what the massacres are helping the opposite side or whatever.

• 47:14Jocko Willink?

  So, so he says this, "People who have lived through war often tell wonderful stories about friendships, incredible romances, amazing gestures of solidarity, comical and poignant collaborations between protagonists and enemy camps, or humble and admirable deeds."

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  It all provides material for novels, songs, films, and evenings of memories. And it patches things up between you and humanity.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  French and German conscripts chatted across the trenches and swapped tins of potted meat. Algerians hid French colonists with whom they played cards. A Vichy minister foiled the deportation of a colleague with whom he had went to school. It was the same in Vietnam, Ireland, Lebanon, Angola, El Salvador, Israel, Chechnya. In the name of passion, childhood, a clan, elemental things like affection or loyalty.

• 48:27Jocko Willink?

  But here,

• 48:30Jocko Willink?

  we find not one camaraderie impulse among teammates, not one gesture of compassion for helpless babies at the breast, no bond of friendship or love that survived from a church choir or an agricultural cooperative,

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  no civil disobedience in a village, no rebellious adolescent in a gang of budding toughs, and not a single escape network, although it would have been easy to have set one up in the forty kilometers of uninhabited forests between the Marshes and the Burundi border. No convoy, no links among the herders' paths, no web of hiding places to allow the evacuation of survivors.

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  Nothing.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  And he continues to talk about, really, the difference between genocide and war.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  In war, men are killed first because they are the most apt to fight back. The next targets are women liable to help them, and boys because they try to continue the conflict, and then older men who can offer wise counsel.

• 49:50Jocko Willink?

  But in genocide, the killers track down everyone. In particular, babies, girls, and women. Because they represent the future. Genocide goes beyond war, because the intention lasts forever. It is a final intention. And again, just talking about the fact that there was no mercy. No mercy. One of the killers says, "I do not know of a single Hutu woman who hid away a little Tutsi child to save it from the massacre of its family. Not even a toddler wrapped in a cloth,

• 50:35Jocko Willink?

  or a nursling unrecognizable to her neighbors because of its tender age. Not one woman on the whole hill cheated in the way of a rescue. Not even for a short moment of trying." And one of the other killers said, "I did not hear many women protesting against Tutsis being raped. They knew this work of killing fiercely heated up the men in the marshes. They agreed on this, except of course, if the men did their dirty sex work near the houses." And again, here's one of the killers talking about

• 51:16Jocko Willink?

  the fact that they knew these people. In war, you kill someone who fights you or promises you harm. In killings of this kind, you kill the Tutsi woman you used to listen to the radio with. Or the kind lady who put medicine plants on your wounds. Or your sister, who is married to a Tutsi. Or even, for some unlucky devils, your own Tutsi wife and your children by general demand.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  You slaughter the woman same as man.

• 51:59Jocko Willink?

  That is the difference. Which changes everything.

• 52:06Jocko Willink?

  And here's the lone. Story. Of someone that tried to stop this.

• 52:16Jocko Willink?

  It was close to noon on April 11th, so remember this started on April 6th, so it's been five days. The first day of the Tutsi hunt in this particular area.

• 52:26Jocko Willink?

  Isador.

• 52:30Jocko Willink?

  Was sitting on a chair in front of his house. Resting after a morning of weeding.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  He was a Hutu farmer, 65 years old. Who had arrived 20 years before.

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  Some strapping fellows armed with machetes came singing up the path that ran near his house. Isador called to them in his deep old voice and lectured them in public in front of the neighbors. You, young men, are evildoers. Turn on your heels and go. Your blades point the way towards a dreadful misfortune for us all.

• 53:09Jocko Willink?

  Do not stir up disputes too dangerous for us farmers. Stop tormenting our neighbors and go back to your fields.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  Two killers approached him, laughing. And without a word, cut him down with their machetes.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Among the band was Isador's son. Who, according to witnesses, neither protested nor stopped to bend over the body.

• 53:42Jocko Willink?

  These young men went on their way. Singing.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, speaking of family, and I mentioned that some of the Hutus and Tutsis were intermarried and had mixed children, and here's sort of the standard operating procedure for that. This is coming from one of the killers.

• 54:06Jocko Willink?

  A Tutsi wife, you could try to save her. You offered a cow to the leader and a radio or the like to the organizers, then you handed out small payments of money to those who were prowling around your house, but that wasn't even worth trying if you did not want to cooperate.

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  Meaning if you didn't want to kill. A Tutsi husband, you couldn't bargain for.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  He was at the head of the list. If his wife began to argue, she was struck right away, and they cut her husband while she watched to discourage her. If she kept on, she'd be cut herself with her children.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  One of the other killers said, "Someone who wanted to save his Tutsi wife was required to show great enthusiasm in the killings. Someone who behaved weakly or timidly knew it was all over for his wife. Grousing or idleness doomed her."

• 55:14Jocko Willink?

  So if you even complained.

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  And they talk about...

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  One of the other killers talking about how it was easy to kill the strangers. "It was much better to kill strangers than acquaintances, because acquaintances had time to stab you with an intense look before receiving the blows.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  A look from a stranger pierced your mind or memory less easily."

• 55:48Jocko Willink?

  But there were some that obviously seemed to enjoy this.

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  Some amused themselves with their machetes on the tootsies to show off their skill to everyone. They would swagger around boasting later in the evening. Some slowed down their machetes just for punishment.

• 56:13Jocko Willink?

  If a tootsie had worn out a pursuer in a running chase, he could be teased with the point of a machete. It would be nasty for him.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  It was like demonstrating the bad example. Except that no one was left alive to notice.

• 56:41Jocko Willink?

  And obviously, when you have families, you have children, and we have children, you have babies.

• 56:49Jocko Willink?

  And here's one of the killers talking about the treatment of the babies.

• 56:55Jocko Willink?

  Saving the babies, that was not practical. They were whacked against walls and trees, or they were cut right away. But they were killed more quickly because of their small size, and because their suffering was of no use.

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  They say that at the church, they burned the children with gasoline. Maybe it's true, but that was just in the first day turmoil.

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  After that, afterward, that did not last. In any case, I noticed nothing more. The babies could not understand the why of the suffering. It was not worth lingering over them.

• 57:41Jocko Willink?

  And as I mentioned earlier, some of the kids were part of the killing.

• 57:49Jocko Willink?

  And here's one of the killers talking about that. Many children killed. Some say they were sickened by it, scared of it, but were forced to cut by their mamas or papas. Most are completely silent when they hear talk of the killings, even from years ago.

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Keeping silent blocks both judgment and change.

• 58:25Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 58:27Jocko Willink?

  to add to the evil of all this, to add to the, to the incomprehensible nature of it all, it's, it's

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  it's almost just unbelievable

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  nature. But on top of all this, these people were Christians.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  They were Catholics. They were, they were church-going people

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  that were transformed almost instantly into murderers.

• 59:07Jocko Willink?

  And here's one of those, one of the killers talking about that transformation. "That Saturday after the plane crash was the usual choir rehearsal day at the church. We sang hymns in good feeling with our Tutsi compatriots, our voices still blending in the chorus.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  On Sunday morning, we returned at the appointed hour for Mass. They did not arrive. They had already fled into the bush in fear of reprisals, driving their goats and cows before them. That disappointed us greatly, especially on a Sunday. Anger hustled us outside the church door."

• 59:51Jocko Willink?

  We left the Lord and our prayers inside to rush home.

• 59:58Jocko Willink?

  We changed from our Sunday best into our workaday clothes. We grabbed clubs and machetes. We went straight off to killing.

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Here's another killer. I was a deacon.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  The one who made arrangements for the Christian gatherings on the hill. In the priest's absence, it was I who conducted ordinary services.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  During the killings, I chose not to pray to God.

• 1:00:38Jocko Willink?

  I sensed that it was not appropriate to involve Him in that.

• 1:00:46Jocko Willink?

  The white priests took off at the first skirmishes.

• 1:00:51Jocko Willink?

  The black priests joined the killers or the killed. God kept silent, and the churches stank from abandoned bodies.

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  Religion could not find its place in our activity. For a little while, we were no longer ordinary Christians. We had to forget our duties learned in catechism class. We had first of all to obey our leaders and God only afterward, very long afterward, to make confession and penance

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  when the job was done.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  Again, I, I...

• 1:01:29Jocko Willink?

  It's just, it's, it's... I didn't know if, if I could do this book to bring people here to this place.

• 1:01:43Jocko Willink?

  And to me, this part that I'm about to go through is

• 1:01:50Jocko Willink?

  about as dark as it gets.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  "In the marshes, you heard no children's cries, not even murmurs. They waited silently in the mud. It was really something. When we uncovered a woman with a nursling, the infant would not even whimper. It was miraculous, so to speak.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Many Tutsis no longer asked to be spared. That was how they greeted death among themselves.

• 1:02:27Jocko Willink?

  They had stopped hoping.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  They knew they had no chance for mercy and went off without a single prayer.

• 1:02:39Jocko Willink?

  They knew they were abandoned by everything, even by God.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  They no longer spoke to Him at all.

• 1:02:49Jocko Willink?

  They were leaving and suffering to join Him and no longer asked Him for anything, not comfort, not blessing, not welcome.

• 1:03:00Jocko Willink?

  They no longer prayed, even to drive away the fear of an agonizing death.

• 1:03:10Jocko Willink?

  It was too astounding, it was unnatural. Even animals that know nothing of pity, nothing of anguish, nothing of evil, they cry out terribly at the moment of the fatal blow.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  That mystery drove us to many discussions. We sought explanations for these Tutsis, who went often to death without breaking their silence.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  That could frighten us sometimes at night because it was said that such calmness must be a bad omen from heaven.

• 1:03:49Jocko Willink?

  And here's one of the other killers talking about that silent death from the Tutsis.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  When the Tutsis were caught, many died without a word.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  In Rwanda, people say, "Die like a lamb in the Bible." Of course, in Rwanda, there are no sheep, so we have never heard their cry.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  It sometimes touched us painfully that they awaited death in silence.

• 1:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Evenings, we would ask over and over, "Why no protest from these people who are about to leave? Why do they not beg for mercy?"

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  The organizers claimed that the Tutsis felt guilty for the sin of being Tutsi. Some kept saying they felt responsible for the misfortunes they had brought upon us.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, I knew that was not true.

• 1:04:46Jocko Willink?

  The Tutsis were not asking for anything in those fatal moments because they no longer believed in words.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  They had no more faith in crying out.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  Like frightened animals, for example, howling to be heard above the mortal blows.

• 1:05:07Jocko Willink?

  An overpowering sorrow was carrying those people away.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  And they felt so abandoned, they did not even open their mouths.

• 1:05:20Jocko Willink?

  And while all that was happening,

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  where were we?

• 1:05:30Jocko Willink?

  Like I said, I mean, I was in a SEAL platoon on that ship. We had

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  assets.

• 1:05:41Jocko Willink?

  And the Marine Corps did, like I said, something small. They got authorization, but it was tiny in comparison.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  And it was to hear them, to hear the killers talk about that.

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Here's, here's what one of them said. "All the important people turned their backs on our killings. The blue helmets, the Belgians, the white directors, the black presidents, the humanitarian people, and the international cameramen, the priests and the bishops, and finally even God.

• 1:06:26Jocko Willink?

  Did he watch what was happening in the marshes?

• 1:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Why did he not stab out our murderous eyes with his wrath? Or show some small sign of disapproval to save more lucky ones?

• 1:06:44Jocko Willink?

  In those horrible moments, who could hear his silence?

• 1:06:51Jocko Willink?

  We were abandoned by all words of rebuke." And I'm gonna close from the book with this statement

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  from one of the survivors.

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  "Before I knew a man could kill another man, because it happens all the time.

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  Now I know that even the person with whom you've shared food, or with whom you've slept, even he can kill you with no trouble.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  The closest neighbor can turn out to be the most horrible.

• 1:07:34Jocko Willink?

  An evil person can kill you with his teeth.

• 1:07:39Jocko Willink?

  That is what I have learned since the genocide. And my eyes no longer gaze the same on the face of the world.

• 1:07:49Jocko Willink?

  My eyes no longer gaze the same on the face of the world."

• 1:08:00Jocko Willink?

  So, what?

• 1:08:05Jocko Willink?

  What can we take away from this? This utter madness?

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  We have to learn something, we have to gain something, but what?

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  What is it?

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  And as I tried to answer that question for myself,

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  I thought about something that I say, and something that I know.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  And this made it even more clear.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  That there is evil in the world, there is darkness, and it exists, and it's real.

• 1:08:57Jocko Willink?

  And it comes from us. It's human, it is people. We are evil.

• 1:09:10Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't a monster that murdered all those people, those men, and those women, and those children, and those babies.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't an animal, or some force of nature, like a tornado, or a hurricane, or a tsunami.

• 1:09:30Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't Satan, and it wasn't some mysterious evil spirit.

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  It was us.

• 1:09:45Jocko Willink?

  And that, that is downright horrifying.

• 1:09:58Jocko Willink?

  But there is a counter to that, there is a dichotomy to that.

• 1:10:05Jocko Willink?

  And that is the fact that while we are the evil in this world,

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  we are also the good. We are the light that counters this darkness.

• 1:10:27Jocko Willink?

  And it sickens my heart to know that we did nothing while this happened. And I was there. I was off the coast, I was on deployment and my platoon was one quick helicopter flight away. And maybe we could have helped, maybe we could have saved even just one person, one child, or one mom, or one baby.

• 1:10:48Jocko Willink?

  We could have made some kind of difference.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  But we didn't.

• 1:10:58Jocko Willink?

  We didn't get the order, and so we sat while this evil unfolded.

• 1:11:11Jocko Willink?

  And I'm ashamed of that.

• 1:11:18Jocko Willink?

  Because you see, we all have the capacity to bring light into the world to counter the darkness. All of us do in some way. Maybe, maybe not directly. Maybe not face to face with evil. But we can help.

• 1:11:41Jocko Willink?

  All of us can help.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  So the message I take away from this abject horror to me,

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  it's that I need to focus, that we need to focus on what good we can do to help people.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  Who can, who can we help? Who can we help get better? Who can we help improve their station in life?

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  What threatened person can we defend? What oppressed person can we free?

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  What person, what fellow human being can we remove from the grip of fear?

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Who can we, who can I?

• 1:12:40Jocko Willink?

  Who can we, what person out in the world can we take from the darkness and bring into the light?

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  And that's

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  the question and the answer that I brought away from this.

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  And I know that this was a heavy, heavy book to cover.

• 1:13:05Jocko Willink?

  And I, like I said, I don't just want every time that you turn on this podcast to get crushed with something like this.

• 1:13:16Jocko Willink?

  And I don't want to dwell on it and I've got some good positive books I want to look at next. But I don't want to ignore this kind of thing either.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  Because as I've said before, you can't appreciate the light

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  if you don't understand the darkness.

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  And as I said, this is truly about as dark as it gets.

• 1:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Little bit heavy, huh Echo? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah.

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  I gave Echo a heads up three or four days ago and I said, hey, man, I'm not quite sure about this one. This is gonna leave a mark. And I truly debated whether or not to go forward. You know, because there were some people that even about the even about the Forgotten Highlander, there were some people that said, hey, you know, that's just too much, you know? That's just too much. And this is, this is, this is completely beyond that.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  Because the, the, there is no rhyme or reason. I mean, at least you could look at a Japanese Imperial soldier and say, hey, he's a, a sick person that's doing something for this cause. There was, there was nothing here.

• 1:14:50Jocko Willink?

  Rhyme or reason, it was just slaughter.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Kids and be, that's, that takes it to a whole nother level when just how they talk in detail about how they deal with the kids.

• 1:15:06Jocko Willink?

  And again, to me, the

• 1:15:12Jocko Willink?

  the, the thing I took away from it is this sort of personal responsibility that we all have.

• 1:15:19Jocko Willink?

  To, to help out other humans. And again, I understand that everyone's not going to be i- in the military, out on the front lines, fighting against, you know, tyranny and evil. I understand that. But what can you do to help out? And I've said this since day one. That's one of, one of the things I talked about in this podcast is, you know, I don't feel like I'm really good at helping, you know, people with causes and stuff like that. I just don't feel it. I don't feel like it's something I'm very good at. But this makes you rethink. And say, what, what, you know, what can you do to help? Because there's people that are suffering. I mean, obviously, right now, we've got, you know, we got ISIS that are doing the same activities, if not worse. They just, they just crucified a priest. That was just in the news.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  So the evil is still there.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  And it is happening before our own eyes.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  And it makes me, it makes me sick. That we

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  with the ability to do something about it, we sit on the sidelines.

• 1:16:31Jocko Willink?

  So hopefully, we start to move in a direction where

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  we take a leadership role in the world and help lead the world towards the light. And away from the darkness.

• 1:16:54Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:16:58Jocko Willink?

  with that thought let's move away from the this darkness right now. Let's talk about something else. Not to forget about this. But we do have to recognize that we gotta live our lives and people gotta live their lives. And again, don't deny that this stuff is out there. Don't forget that this stuff is out there. Relish your situation. If you're, if you have a MP3 player of some kind and you're listening to this podcast, be thankful. Be thankful that you're in that situation.

• 1:17:37Jocko Willink?

  And look down below you into the darkness. And if you get the chance, put out your hand. And see if there's someone down there that you can help pull up.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  So out of that heaviness and out of that darkness, let's head into a little bit of light. With the community.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Questions, questions from the troopers out there. Got questions for us.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  And you know, before we talk about the

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  before we go to questions from the interwebs, what can we do from the interwebs? Supporting the podcast style. And if you want to support this podcast, you can get some supplements from Jacofuel.com. You can get some gear and clothing from OriginUSA.com. You can get a bunch of cool t-shirts and whatnot from JacoStore.com. And you can check out my leadership consulting company at EchelonFront.com. And everything is available at Jaco.com. You want to buy this book right here, which you should.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Machete season.

• 1:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's an eye opener.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  I don't know though. I don't know. It might not be for everybody.

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you, if you're a human, you should know about what the world is like.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  I dig it.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  Machete season.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Right there.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  If you want to get that, for example, through Amazon, just click through the link that is on JacoPodcast.com or JacoPodcast2.com or JacoStore.

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you want to buy anything from Amazon and you click through that link, little something goes to the podcast.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. So you're kind of passively supporting.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Also, you know what? You know what I just realized? Earlier today? We have shirts.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Jocko Podcast shirts, they're, you know, they're a couple of designs. I've never mentioned it.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  I posted a picture on Twitter before, like a couple of pictures on Twitter, that's it. I've never mentioned it.

• 1:19:36Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  That's another way to support the podcast.

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, get yourself a shirt. Get yourself a shirt.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  But just look at the shirts, they're at JacoStore.com. Look at them. If you like it, if you like one of them or both the designs or whatever, get a shirt. If you don't like them, don't get the shirt.

• 1:19:53Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's simple enough.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yep. Um, there it is.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Let's get some questions going.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Okay, first question.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Jocko, can you tell us your views on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu competing mindset and training leading into a competition?

• 1:20:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, competing is great. Competing makes you better. Competing points out your weaknesses. Competing lets you roll against people that you've never trained with before that are going to go 1,000% against you.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Every move matters in competition.

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes, they bring it. Uh, I competed a ton back in the early days.

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, you know, really, I'll just talk about Dean, because Dean and I were teammates back then and still are, but we competed all the time. And we competed in the old school tournaments, the, uh, the grappling games, they used to have those. The, the Pan American Submission Grappling, it was sort of like some offshoot or another competing sort of Pan Ams type situation.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  My, my, there was the Joe Moriera tournaments back in the day, those were pretty cool. And, uh, the Copa Pacifica, I think I did a few of those back in the day. Well, my favorite was doing the neutral grounds tournaments, because those were like held up in LA, up in the hood somewhere, and we'd roll in and be kind of underground. And those were really cool competitions. So, but competed a ton back in the day, um, once. Honestly, once September 11th happened, that was now my focus more than anything else. And I needed to be ready. I needed to be ready. I couldn't be having a blown out knee. I couldn't be having a hurt shoulder. So. And furthermore, I had like less time to focus.

• 1:21:38Jocko Willink?

  And have real, like, let's call it a training camp to be ready to compete at a high level. And I mean, I was at a high level, you know, I mean, I was. I was, you know, a brown belt or a black belt at the time. And so it wasn't like you could just show up a weekend warrior and jump in the jump on the mat with, you know, some, some other black belt and it was gonna go easy for you. It wasn't gonna happen. So. And you know, the bottom line is I needed to be a hundred percent for the job. Uh, but competing is awesome. It's intense. No matter what you do. In training, you cannot get a person as fired up. As they are going to be in competition. It's not gonna happen. So it's really good to. To compete. So you find out what your weaknesses is. You find out what it feels like when someone's going psycho on you. Cause they're going to be going psycho.

• 1:22:24Jocko Willink?

  And to prepare for them, you know, you gotta, you gotta. My favorite thing to do prepares, you know, you get guys where they're going. Got fresh people coming on you. Because everybody can be destroyed. When fatigue rolls in and starts getting playing a role in the situation. It's bad. It's bad. So when you bring in a fresh person. You know, after. Every two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, one minute, six minutes. But one person is, is, is fighting the whole time and other people are getting rested and coming in. That's very challenging. It makes you rely on your technique. It pushes you beyond your normal limits and it's an awesome way to do it. So, that being said, you also can't just do that all the time because you have to train your explosiveness as well. And you need to be ready to do.

• 1:23:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you're doing a seven minute fight, you need to be able to go hard for seven minutes and not save everything for a thirty eight minute fight. Which is what you sometimes end up doing in the gym. I do that all the time in the gym. I'm doing. You know, six rounds, seven rounds. You know, nine rounds, whatever the case may be. And you're also doing just one round, but it's one round that's twenty three minutes long.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Jocko Willink?

  That happens too. So. I like to do a little bit of all those things. And, but yeah. Compete, get yourself better. And it'll it'll definitely make you a better Jiu Jitsu player, which will make you a better person. Be used to that pressure.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  You know what, another tactic, which is, which is kinda good, and Jeff will do this sometimes, he'll do like a three minute round.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  So it's strange, because when you know there's only three minutes, you kinda get that illusion that I'm just gonna go all out. And see how many, if I can get this guy, I only have three minutes to get him. And so you're going hard, so your sense of urgency is more than if you have an eight minute round.

• 1:24:04Jocko Willink?

  Yep, for sure.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  You're probably, but here's the, here's the little trick, and I don't know if Jeff did this on purpose, but it's, it's kinda this little trick where you're going hard, but he only gives us thirty seconds in between. So it doesn't matter if it's a three minute round, you're going like six rounds.

• 1:24:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  So you're like, and so that'll test your conditioning, but it'll test like your quickness and, not quickness, like, quick, but your urgency.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  You know, you're not gonna be just chilling in some guy's guard, or, you know.

• 1:24:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause it's, you can possibly chill in the guard.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  You can, yeah. In fact, that's, that's a good strategy in some cases, you know, when you gotta recover, or something like this. Anyway, that, that's, that was an interesting one that I came to realize when Jeff put it on us one day.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Jeffy Glover.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Jeff Glover, yes. Okay, next question.

• 1:24:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Okay, I hurt myself significantly throwing a roundhouse kick recently. Abdominal hernia at the site of an old appendix surgery. I trained MMA five days a week, sometimes more, multiple times a day for two years until last week, when I got that injury. But now I can hardly sit in the chair without pain, and surgery is two months out. And who knows how long recover, like recovery will be, um, before I can train again. What I'm asking is,

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  what should we, as martial artists and men, do in times of forced hiatus and injury? What do we do when there's a quiet, but we miss the storm?

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:25:35Jocko Willink?

  One thing with injuries, injuries are gonna come. And you cut wood, you get sawdust. You train, you're gonna get injured. That's what's gonna happen. I mean, it's just a, that's just, this is the law. This is the law of the land. The number one thing to remember is, and this is something that's really hard when you're super active and you're super fired up and you're training all the time. When you get injured and you get sidelined, you feel like it's never gonna go away. It feels like it's not healing and you're just like, oh, man, this, I'm doomed. So, the, the injury is gonna wa- go away. Now, obviously, for some guys, for some, for some actual soldiers or warriors that have been wounded in a permanent way, that's, that's different. And those guys, what they do is they learn to adapt.

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  You know, they learn, how are they gonna get through this? How are they gonna adapt their life? How are they gonna roll with one leg? How are they gonna do pull-ups with one hand? Uh, Jeff Real, you know Jeff Real?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:32Jocko Willink?

  We were doing burpy pull-ups the other day. I was putting the MMA classes through it. If you don't know Jeff Real, awesome guy, awesome fighter, awesome jiu-jitsu player. He's born without one hand. I had the guys doing burpy pull-ups.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Black belt, by the way.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, black belt. And he had a, he has like a little hook he can put on there to do pull-ups. And I guess the thing was falling off. And so he just threw that thing to the ground and he was just hooking his, his forearm over. And then the other hand was grabbing, he's doing pull-ups. I mean, if, if Jeff Real can just jump, do, we did, I don't know, six rounds worth of burpy pull-ups, or five rounds worth of burpy pull-ups, and he crushed it, no one has any excuse. So, guys, if they get some kind of a permanent injury, they get wounded, something like that happens, okay, you gotta adapt to it, you gotta figure out what you can do. But the injuries, the, the basic injuries, the daily injuries, the,

• 1:27:27Jocko Willink?

  the temporary injuries, that is normal from training.

• 1:27:32Jocko Willink?

  That that's you're gonna get him. And so, of course, oh, you got an injury? Good, right? It's a little injury. Be thankful it's not something worse, you know? I I've I've had, you know, a blown out ankle. I've had a torn MCL. And, you know, what do you do? What do you say when you tear your ACL or your MCL? You say, okay, awesome. It's not my ACL. It's not my meniscus. You know, the the MCL will heal itself. What do you say if it's your if it is your ACL? Okay, great. That's one that can be repaired with surgery. So none of these problems are permanent. Right? So be thankful you don't have a permanent injury. And even though it seems like it's gonna take forever, like homeboy here who's got two months before he even gets surgery.

• 1:28:17Jocko Willink?

  And then how long is it gonna take? It seems like it's gonna take forever. I had neck surgery, right? That's a blip on the radar. I don't even remember how long it took. It was a long time. I mean, it took months to heal from that. I don't remember that. What did I do during that time? I did other exercises. I figured out the stuff. I watched YouTube videos. I figured out other moves. You know, that's what I did. So I guess YouTube wasn't even around. I was watching DVDs. Jiu Jitsu DVDs. Yeah, VHS tapes. So what do you do? Number one, stay active, right? You know, move. Do if you if you can't move your body all, work your forearm strength, right? Squeeze a tennis ball. One of my buddies blew out his knee.

• 1:28:59Jocko Willink?

  What is it? The triple threat? He did ACL, PCL, meniscus. Boom, heel hook, right? Didn't tap. Got to tap to the heel hook, people. Got to tap to it. Got caught in heel hook, didn't tap, blew his blew it all apart. He was in a he had to get him all reconstructed. So he we had a dummy. Remember the big dummy we have at the gym? We had a big one. It was 120 pounds. And he would lay on the ground. His knee is in a full his leg is in a full straight brace, won't bend at all. He would lay on the ground and and lay next to this dummy. And he'd just pull it from one side of himself, put it on the ground on the other side of himself. Pull it back to the other side, back to the other side, back to the other side. So he's getting this motion

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  of sort of turning on the ground, this massive core strength. And when we when he finally recovered, it was powerful. And you know, when he would turn underneath you, you'd say, you got some you got some strength there. So you got to figure out what you can do, you know, if you can't roll.

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  Box. If you can't box, lift. If you can't lift, stretch and get that flexibility working in some area that you're not flexible. Well, whatever you're gonna do, stay engaged, stay active, because I think I'm definitely a believer in the active rest. You know what I mean? When you just go, okay, I'm injured, so I'm just gonna sit on the couch and watch TV. No, wrong answer. Run away from that TV. You gotta keep moving because that keeps your blood flowing and it keeps getting, it gets more blood, more circulation, more healing goes to this area that's injured. So do that. And if you're, but you know, still you're still gonna have more time in your day, right? So what are you gonna do? I'll tell you what you're gonna do.

• 1:30:37Jocko Willink?

  Get a guitar, right? Learn to play guitar, write a book, build a website, take pictures, learn a language, read more books.

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  Expand your brain, right? Expand your mind. When your body needs a little recovery, when your body's injured, make yourself smarter, make yourself better, free your mind. And so the bottom line, the question was, what does a man do when there's quiet?

• 1:31:07Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you what a man does when there's quiet. He takes advantage of it. So take advantage of it. Get smarter, get better in other ways. And when the body comes back, you'll, you will be better.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good way to, to put it, like, take advantage of it, like actively. Cause a lot of times, like, where the problem comes about, I know this because when I tore my bicep.

• 1:31:29Jocko Willink?

  That's right. I was there. I was watching that.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think you.

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was, I have a picture of you laying on the ground.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was messed up. I think you sent me a smarmy text too, something like that. No, that was for something else, but same day though. Nonetheless, what, where the problem comes, when you miss the story, you miss the action, is you're harping on it. It's almost like you have this hope, like, oh, it'll be soon, or maybe the, the doctor said nine months, but maybe I could do it in four kind of thing, you know, just that mindset where. You you kinda in a way gotta admit to yourself, okay, I'm I'm out right now. I can't roll right now. I can't train MMA two times a day, five days a week. I cannot do that. You gotta admit that.

• 1:32:12Jocko Willink?

  So what did you do? Did you work on your video editing skills during that time?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  No, man, that was, I think that was before.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  So what'd you do?

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I'll tell you.

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  You did not take advantage.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  What I didn't do is is harp on it. Yeah.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  You moved on. You figured out what else you can do.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And I was always into working out and stuff, so I would do other stuff like legs and stuff.

• 1:32:34Jocko Willink?

  Work your left arm.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Actually, my left arm is still bigger a little bit. Nonetheless, I I think that that's that's a good little jump start is don't harp on it. Don't um you gotta admit to yourself that you're you're out. You're injured right now. So and then how you said, take advantage of it. Dang, that's good. I wish I would have known that actively take advantage because there's so much advantage to be taken.

• 1:32:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's all kinds of time you have.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  I think about all the time that I spend in the gym and on the mats. I mean, that's a budge big chunk of time every day.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  Now, like with with reading, for example, I got back into reading and um. Look, I look at it this way, where as far as books go, books that exist. Any information in the whole, whether you're interested in it, not interested, whether you can understand it or not. All the information of the world is accessible.

• 1:33:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Right now, more than more than any time ever. All different angles, different aspects of everything is just out there and you have more time now. Take advantage of that.

• 1:33:34Jocko Willink?

  Actively.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  Actively. Alright, next question.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  My question is this, as a military man, what do you do if you cannot reconcile the orders that you're asked to do? I know that in your book you talk about believe the mission and how to how you must ask questions until you believe. What happens if after all the questions and all the expect explanations, you don't agree or believe? What if the policy the politics ask of you something you're not congruent with? How do you, as a military man, respond to your incongruency with the mission?

• 1:34:15Jocko Willink?

  So, this is a great question and, and, and

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  you know, it's kind of ties in with what we just read with the book review of machete season, how people were just doing, if some of them didn't believe in what they were doing, they did it anyways. Wrong answer. Um, and it resulted in the death of the one guy, you know, you talk about that's in the book.

• 1:34:40Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, so first of all, as you, as you stated in the question itself, if you don't agree with some mission that you've been given, then you have to ask the question, why? And in the book, Extreme Ownership, we talk about that, the primary example is we talk about is working with Iraqi soldiers and how that's very challenging and very difficult and very dangerous. And the story that we tell in the book is that I, I said to myself, okay, why are they having us work with these Iraqi soldiers? My guys are going to be at risk, et cetera, et cetera. And eventually I realized why we needed to do this was because if we didn't get the Iraqi soldiers to a point where they could handle the security in Iraq, then who was going to do it? And the answer was us.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  So I understood why. Now, I actually didn't even have to ask anybody why. I figured that out. I asked myself why. And so I was able to come to it, come to that conclusion. But when you are part of something, whether it's in business or it's in war, the, the goal, the ultimate goal, it has to be aligned. And, and so for example, we're in Iraq, we're supposed to use Iraqi soldiers. Okay. Do you think that the generals wanted our men to be killed because the, the higher risk? No, they wanted to win the war. They want to keep our guys safe. So that's what I wanted too. We want to win the war. We want to keep our guys safe. So that's aligned. So anything that they're telling me to do,

• 1:36:07Jocko Willink?

  it must be at some point in the distance aligned with the same goal that I have. And it's the same thing with a business. Do you think a boss of a business doesn't want to be profitable? Or doesn't want to be ethical? No. Somewhere in the future, they want to be profitable and they want to be ethical. And somewhere your mission is going to align with that. If you don't, if those don't align at some point, then you got a real serious issue on your hands, right? Because maybe you're being told to do something that you just don't believe in. And you at first, you know, like I said, you've got to ask those questions all the way up. And if you do ask those questions all the way up and you still find, okay, I don't believe in this mission.

• 1:36:54Jocko Willink?

  Now you've got to weigh out the consequences. Because,

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  for instance, if there's an order that comes and for whatever reason, you don't believe in it and you've asked the questions and you still don't believe that it's the right thing to do. But what if it's something that's like pretty inconsequential, right? Something that's no big deal. And you say no to it, like, I'm not going to do this. You decide to make your stand. Okay, well, now you're, you're, first of all, you're not supporting the chain of command anymore. And if you're not supporting your chain of command anymore, how can you support the guys that work for you?

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  Because now you might get removed. And if you get removed from the situation, now who's going to go execute it? Who's going to go do this thing that you thought was wrong? Now you're going to give it to somebody that might execute it in a harsher way, in a worse way, or you lose control of it. You've lost your influence. You've used up some of your political capital. You've impaired your reputation by saying, no, I'm not going to do that because I don't believe in it. But what was it? And by saying no, what did you accomplish?

• 1:38:07Jocko Willink?

  Because now you have no control over anymore. You're, you're, you can't change it. You can't affect it anymore. So let me ask you this. This is an example. This will make it very clear what I'm trying to say because I don't think I'm being very clear right now. If you're playing a game, right? You're playing a football game or a basketball game. And the ref makes a bad call. Okay, so you say, ref made a bad call. I don't agree with this call. I quit. I'm walking off the court.

• 1:38:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, does that make sense? I mean, how bad of a call was it? How did it affect the game? And furthermore, once you walk off the court, what good are you? Can you, can you do better? Can you try and bring back the score? Can you try and show the ref that yes, you are playing fair? Look, I'm a good guy, I'm keeping my head, I'm keeping my cool. No, you've thrown that all away. You've thrown that all away. And so what good is that? It's the same thing, not necessarily the ref, because that's sort of outside your chain of command. But what if your own coach? What if your coach pulls you out of a game? Or a coach calls a play to you, for you to run a play that you didn't believe in? So you're gonna say, you know what? I don't believe in that play. I'm walking off the field. That's an exact correlation to this idea, right?

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  This military order comes down that I don't believe in. Oh, I don't believe in it, so now we're gonna walk away.

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  So, that is problematic, because you've, you've given up. You've surrendered your right to affect the situation.

• 1:39:39Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's not good. And in the military, there's all kinds of little, you know, policy nuances that we might not believe in 100%. Little, little things. There might be little things that you go, you know what? I don't, I don't see, I don't think that's the best way to do it, or I think there's a better way to do it. But if you walk away from it, now you can no longer affect it. And that is bad. So generally speaking, for most of these things, you, I, I dealt, I dealt with in the military all the time. Dealt with it all the time. And you know what? Generally speaking, you stay in the game. So that you can still have an effect, you can still have influence.

• 1:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, there can be orders that are unlawful or unethical. That can happen, right? If you are in a bad situation, you're working for a bad commander, you're working for someone that's unethical, or whatever the case may be.

• 1:40:39Jocko Willink?

  It may be their orders or plans that are tactically unsound, to the point that you're afraid people are gonna die.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  And and in those situations, you know, as we were going back to Napoleon's maxim again, if you execute something that you knew was wrong, you're culpable. So then it is time when you stand up and say, you know what? I'm not doing this. You want to send me to Leavenworth? You want to demote me? Demote me. Do it. But I do not believe in this, and here's why. So that is a time where you may have to say after you weigh out the situation, how bad is it? Something that's unethical, unconstitutional? And you think you're gonna have a bigger impact by protesting it? By possibly jeopardizing your career or possibly going to going to Leavenworth if you're in the military? Getting court martialed, all those things could happen. If you think that it's so important?

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  And that you will have a better effect on it by making this protest, because that's what you're doing. You're now making a protest? Then, okay, maybe that makes sense. So you got like the the Mai Li massacre in Vietnam where horrible situation happens. And if you were a soldier that was there and said, you know what? I'm not doing this. Stop. And maybe maybe you do risk getting court martialed. Maybe you risk getting killed. But that's a situation where maybe you do it, or maybe it's some mistreatment of civilians or something. But again, even with mistreatment of civilians, the US military is not going to order the mistreatment of civilians. It's not going to happen. So if it is happening, it's coming from a rogue commander

• 1:42:17Jocko Willink?

  that you're going to be able to destroy when you bring this situation to the to the authorities or to the higher chain of command.

• 1:42:27Jocko Willink?

  So, again, you know, if you're getting wrapped up in some small nuanced thing.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, he mentions the political, like if you're not politically congruent with, I don't know if you meant that.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and again, when you're in the military, you're you're not there to um.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  Worry about the politics of it, you know, you're there to carry out the politics. You're there to carry out the policy. Now, if there's a, again, if the policy is egregious.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  If it's egregious and you think you would do better to, to make a protest and end up in jail and, you know, be on CNN and Fox News and saying, hey, this is why I'm in jail because I didn't agree with what we're doing. If it's something that the rest of the nation is gonna look at and say, yeah, this guy was right. Of course. But if you're doing it because it's something that is in comparison to that is something relatively small, then you're probably, you're probably doing worse to help the situation. You're probably doing less good by walking away, getting off the field and letting, letting the, the, the situation transpire without your presence. I wanna be there.

• 1:43:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, I wanna be there. If I, if my guys were getting tasked with a mission that I thought was a little bit sketchy, I wanna be there. I wanna be there. Not, hey, I protest, so I'm not gonna go. Hmm, not a good call. So, um, yeah, and, and again, I'm not saying that you don't stand by your principles. But what I'm saying is, especially to this guy that's in the military, your principles should be for the most part in line. This is America and if you're, if you're, if you're being told to do something that's, that's un-American, then yeah, stand by your principles. But most, if it's something that's small and it's something that you just might not agree with a hundred percent, that doesn't mean you're an unprincipled person.

• 1:44:27Jocko Willink?

  It means that you are winning, losing the battle, but you're gonna win the war.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I like that way, weigh it out. You know, a lot of people there like, hey, that bothers me, I'm jumping on the, you know, on that side of things.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Chaco and Echo, what supplements do you guys take besides krill oil and alpha brain?

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  And do you take the alpha brain instant or capsules?

• 1:45:02Jocko Willink?

  I take alpha brain instant. It's tasty treat. It's got a little sweetness to it. It's got a little sweetness to it. Uh, cause it's got stevie in it. So it tastes good. If you, if you have a little bit of a sweet tooth and you want something sweet and you've been eating like steak for the past seven days. Um, no, it tastes good. I also take glucosamine, as I've mentioned before. I do get it from Onnit. It's a product called Strong Bone. That's what I, uh, that's what I take. And I'll tell you. I, I, the, for getting ready for the podcast, right? Doing prep work.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  Like three days in a row, I was deep in prep work and I was pounding some, some alpha brain. And each, each day, yeah, I was like drinking the full alpha brains and maybe like two of them. And, and I, I had, I did it two days in a row. And when I went into train and I trained with Dean, Dean's getting ready for something right now. And I was rolling really good with Dean. Each day I was, you know, I was.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Doing well.

• 1:46:06Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I was doing, I was doing well. And, and Dean was, Dean was not a happy camper.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  And then the third day was like, I was pretty much done with wrapped up the prep. And I didn't have any alpha brain and I had a rough day. And I, I said to myself, maybe this will stop there.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Causation?

• 1:46:23Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:46:26Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, yeah. And I suppose you want to throw out some Shroom Tech?

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, Shroom Tech, um, of course, like I've always said.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Again, even before this, I was, I took Shroom Tech. That was good. That's a good one. Uh, the pre-workout, uh, sometimes, you know, well, actually all the time. If you, if you really want to feel like working out, you know, like, hey, I feel like working out right now. You don't always feel like that. If you want to guaranteed feel like that, take some pre-workout with the alpha brain instant. Mix them together. Boom. Gatorade. Boom.

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  Um, as far as the alpha brain instant versus the capsules and.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  My brother has um verified this. I've never taken, I've taken the capsules, but not before I go to sleep. I hear that if you take the capsules before you go to sleep. Cause I don't think there's like any kind of caffeine or nothing in Alpha Brain.

• 1:47:15Jocko Willink?

  There's not.

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  So. Take it before you go to sleep, you get um.

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  Lucid dreams.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  Lucid dreams, yeah.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  I've heard that.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  I've heard that from everybody. Everybody who takes Alpha Brain, they say that it affects their dream.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  I don't want my dreams to be any more real than they are, actually.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  But do you know that that you're dreaming when you, when you go through a dream situation?

• 1:47:36Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, apparently like this.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  But, but a lot of times my dreams are just blank, but I wake up in, in a complete, full athletic sweat, drenched bed. That's, that's how I wake up. It's not fun.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but in regards to like protein powder, nothing like this, uh.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Steak.

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:53Jocko Willink?

  I said it before and I'll say it again.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a big deal. Like a lot of people, you know, people, some people are really into supplements. Like to be, yeah, the new, this is the new protein powder, cause it comes with this delivery system and all this stuff.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  Um. Dual action protein.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, all this other stuff and it, it does, um. Like if you eat food that.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Just normal food, that is a good delivery system.

• 1:48:16Jocko Willink?

  That is.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  I'll tell you that.

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  Especially, especially when it's in the form of a rib eye steak. A good delivery system right there.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I would imagine so. But yeah, that's it. Not that heavy into the supplements, um. Maybe a multivitamin from time to time. Right?

• 1:48:33Jocko Willink?

  I don't really take a multivitamin anymore.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:48:36Jocko Willink?

  I did for a while. I don't anymore.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, krill oil, Alpha Brain, yeah, that's it.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm a Kentucky trooper. And I'm an instructor at our academy, the police academy. We lost three guys last year. Could you discuss how, how to deal with training these guys as hard as you can? And they still lose their lives while working? So. As far as dealing with people and letting them know that, um.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  You know, that this goes down.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  How do you deal with that?

• 1:49:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, I get a lot of feedback from police officers out there in the world. And if I would say one thing to them to lead this office, thank you for what you do. You guys have a dangerous job. It's intense, it's thankless most of the time and you're dealing with the with the dregs of society all day long and then you have to balance that with dealing with normal civilians and citizens. So,

• 1:49:44Jocko Willink?

  thank you for what you guys do. And also I'll throw on top of that firefighters, you know, paramedics. Thank you guys for what you do. And again, thankless job.

• 1:49:58Jocko Willink?

  Difficult job, dangerous job. Where people, you're helping people that don't want to help themselves in many cases. So, thanks for everybody. Thanks for all those, those first responders for what you guys do.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  Now, as far as training guys hard. And then you still get guys that get killed, bless them.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  But let me ask you, what is the alternative? Right? What are you gonna do? Not train hard?

• 1:50:34Jocko Willink?

  You know, I had the first seals that were killed in Iraq were killed under my command. They were my guys. Mark, Mark Lee, Mikey Montessor and Ryan Job. And we trained as hard as possible. And we still took those casualties. I'm telling you, we trained as hard as possible. And it, it wasn't for lack of training or lack of planning or lack of skill.

• 1:51:02Jocko Willink?

  It's the nature of combat. It's the risk of conducting operations in a hostile environment. And I'll tell you what, when I got back to America and I took over the training for the West Coast SEAL Teams, that fact,

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  that fact of losing my guys in combat, it made me fanatical about training. And I was already fanatical about training, but it multiplied infinitely.

• 1:51:36Jocko Willink?

  Because it now became my mission to prepare these guys to the absolute best of my ability and get them ready for combat.

• 1:51:47Jocko Willink?

  And part of that preparation was making them understand what was at risk. And I think that's something that you should do here.

• 1:51:58Jocko Willink?

  You know, you don't know what's gonna happen when you go into the field and you don't know when it's gonna happen. So everything you do should be to prepare yourself mentally and physically for the moment of truth. Whether that happens at a traffic stop or while you're serving a warrant or while you're stopping a bank robbery, you don't know when it is going to happen. And so you gotta tell these guys, tell them the truth of the danger and let it sink in and hound on it.

• 1:52:29Jocko Willink?

  And I, I, I tell this story from time to time, it's not even a story, it's a statement. And it's because I remember this feeling. And it was when I got back from Ramadi.

• 1:52:41Jocko Willink?

  And we were doing, we'd be doing urban training. And I would see a guy like standing in the street, standing in the middle of the street, which is, which is not a good move, right? That's where bullets fly down, you're gonna get shot when you're standing in the middle of the street. And it happened all the time to guys in Ramadi. And I would see a guy that would be standing in the street and I would literally feel sick. It was only for about maybe six to nine months after I got back when I'd go out to these training sites. I would feel sick to my stomach. I would just feel this horrible feeling because it was like I was waiting for something to be, I was waiting for him to get shot. And it felt horrible. And I want, my goal was to transfer that feeling into their heads.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  I wanted them to feel sick. I wanted them to feel embarrassed and feel guilty and feel angry. And feel disappointed that they were doing something wrong. Because I wanted them to change their behavior.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  Which would keep them alive.

• 1:53:45Jocko Willink?

  So I would say in this case. You, you've got, you're putting people through training, valuable training. And of course, they're still gonna go out and do a dangerous job. But you, you don't back off the training. You train harder. And you use these guys, again, God bless them. You use these guys that were killed in action. As an example of, hey guys, this is why we're training hard. This is why we're gonna push. This is why I want you to take personal responsibility. For yourself and for your training and for your skillset. So that you're ready.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  You train how you fight. And you fight how you train.

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  So take advantage of that. And be ready.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Yet a lot of times that, that pain of, um, you know, any kind of fail, in this case, this is an extreme case, losing your guys. You know, you guys are going through these extreme cases. Um, and that, you know, so there's a spectrum of, you know, of cases, but any kind of failure or, or mishap that causes any kind of pain. You can, and it's not easy, it's not easy, but you can use that pain. To facilitate your passion in a corrective way, you know, like how you say, train harder. You can take that pain and literally focus on.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  Good ways of training, training hard, being attached to the results of training or the process of training.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  You know, and it'll, you can, essentially you can use that pain.

• 1:55:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, absolutely. You get a guy that's an MMA fighter that loses to a submission hold.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:38Jocko Willink?

  You take that and you say, okay bud, you gotta work that jiu-jitsu. You take a guy that gets his legs kicked out from underneath him. Okay, you gotta work your Muay Thai. So you take those painful training experiences and you put them, like you said, you put them to work. Absolutely.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and a lot of times, that'll come naturally, a lot of times, but it doesn't always. So in those cases, you can just actively and consciously take that pain, you know, and redirect it. You can do it. You can do that. Really, even if it doesn't come naturally, it helps.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  Okay, Jocko, any advice you have to continue to work out at 4:30 a.m. but with two newborn twins at home?

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Because the struggle to stay awake is real.

• 1:56:22Jocko Willink?

  Awesome question. And, well, I have four kids. The first three of them were born in pretty rapid succession, not quite twins, obviously. But, you know, we had, at one point, we had three kids under three. So, yeah, we're getting after it. And, uh, now, part of that, I gotta, in full disclosure, I, you know, I was, uh, deployed a fair amount. But when you got those young kids, here's what you gotta do. You gotta get it done. You gotta get it done. And this idea that you're gonna get it done on some pattern

• 1:57:04Jocko Willink?

  or some structured time schedule, it's gonna, it's gonna fall apart.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta both sleep and working out and every other thing that you're trying to get done in your life. You have to make it happen when you can make it happen. You know, you have to make it happen when you can make it happen. There's gonna be no ideal time. You might be working out at 3 o'clock in the morning. You might be working out at 7 o'clock at night. You might be working out at midnight. You might be trying to sleep at noon. You don't know what's gonna happen.

• 1:57:34Jocko Willink?

  I would definitely say when you got the young kids, get some kind of a home gym set up. At least get a pull-up bar, at least get yourself a pull-up bar. Cause if you have a pull-up bar, you can do everything. You can do pull-ups, then you can do push-ups, you can do squats, you can do sprints. You can, you can make stuff work if you at least have a pull-up bar. And then you just gotta squeeze it in there. You know, it's a half an hour there, it's twenty minutes here, it's fifteen minutes there, it's a power nap. In the afternoon, it's some squats while you're sitting there holding the baby, trying to get the baby to fall asleep. That's what it is. It's the stroller to the park. With a chalk bag, so when you get there, you can do some pull-ups on the swing set. That's what it becomes. Because life is gonna have a vote in these situations.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  And your kids and your family

• 1:58:25Jocko Willink?

  are more important than you are. And that's something that is a tough

• 1:58:33Jocko Willink?

  uh, reality for the young dads to face. All of a sudden, you are not the most important thing in the world. At all. They are more important than you are.

• 1:58:47Jocko Willink?

  That being said, which I know I'm supposed to uh, pay some kind of a fine when I say that being said. Somebody on Twitter hassled me about it. That being said, so your kids are more important than you, your family's more important than you. That being said, guess what the number one thing you need to do for them? Stay healthy. You gotta stay healthy. You can't get all out of shape and turn into a bum just because you got kids. They're looking to you to be able to provide for them for a long time. They're also looking at you as an example. That's a big one. So you gotta be the right kind of example, and physical fitness is part of that example. So they should see that from day one. They should know big daddy's doing some squats while he's holding me.

• 1:59:33Jocko Willink?

  And now.

• 1:59:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna double down. That being said, this is not a time of your life when you have newborn twins that you're gonna be in the optimal condition.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:46Jocko Willink?

  You're not gonna be at your peak performance. That's okay. Right? That's okay. Hey, man. You got things going on. You're a dad.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're not-

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  A new dad with twins.

• 1:59:58Jocko Willink?

  New dad with twins. You're not gonna be setting any of your PRs on your, on your deadlift, right? It's not gonna happen.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:07Jocko Willink?

  So, but, but that's not a reason that you fall apart. At all. You gotta hold the line as much as you can. You gotta balance this situation out. You gotta squeeze in. Dig in. You gotta be creative with your workout, with your rest, with your sleep. When the opportunity presents itself, whichever one of those is the priority, you gotta go and get it on.

• 2:00:33Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, it'll happen. It's not just when you have newborn kids. It'll happen with your job. You know, you'll get some pressure situation at work and all of a sudden you're gonna, you gotta squeeze it in.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:00:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, I had, I bought houses over time. And I would always buy these houses that were unlivable, right? Just unlivable. Just ransacked disasters because they were cheaper.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:00:57Jocko Willink?

  And then I would go in and do these like speed remodels alone.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  By yourself?

• 2:01:04Jocko Willink?

  By myself.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:01:05Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, for instance, I did a, I gutted a kitchen in one of my houses, gutted the kitchen and redid the whole kitchen plumbing, electrical, new counters, the whole thing. And I got it. I didn't get the countertops in because that, that was like, you know, especially guys coming in to do that, but seventy-two hours.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:01:23Jocko Willink?

  Seventy-two hours, non-stop work.

• 2:01:27Jocko Willink?

  When I moved into another house, I had, we pulled up the carpet. I thought there was these nice hardwood floors under the carpet. Pulled up water damage.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  A third of the, a little bit more than a third of the, almost half the floor is water damage. So I had to yank those boards out. And then sand this whole thing. And it was a nightmare, but it took me 72 hours.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Of no sleep. Like I'd sleep for 20 minutes waiting for the, the next layer of varnish to dry. Sitting there in the fumes, right? But that's what you gotta do sometimes. You got the bit, like I said, a big project at work, something that's coming. Uh, and you gotta figure out how, what you can fit in, when you can fit it in and realize that there's benefit.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:02:09Jocko Willink?

  There's benefit to that 20 minute little session you just did. Go do a hundred burpees.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:14Jocko Willink?

  Right? Go swing a kettlebell. Just go swing. I was talking about the other day, I got kettlebell. I got, I got the, uh, the zombie bells, right? I got the zombie bells. You know, I have a garage gym. The zombie bells are in my house. Because I'm walking around and sometimes you need to snatch a kettlebell, right? Sometimes you gotta snatch a kettlebell. So, so you have that and that builds up because now you're just boom. You hit out, you know, you're not even breaking into a sweat. Just hitting seven, seven each arm. Little kettlebell snatch. Maybe it's just, you're just doing that.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Jocko Willink?

  And so that's the kind of thing. Maybe, you know, with newborn dad, you gotta have that, you gotta have that zombie bells sitting in your house. Ready just to hit some snatches.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Ready just to do some, some, some sumo deadlift high pulls, right? What's it gonna be?

• 2:03:03Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  Make it happen. But get the pull up bar or, or a set of rings. Get the rings.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, something that you can, rings are great because then you can do pull ups, you can do dips. They're very, very versatile. Very versatile. But you're gonna, the bottom line here is.

• 2:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Your life is going to change. It has changed. So it doesn't mean, and you're, you know what? Your life has changed and it just got better. It just got better. So what you need to do is you need to adapt to the new situation and continue to drive the excellence. But the excellence isn't going to be served up all at once. The excellence is going to be served up in little chunks throughout the day. Where you can grab it.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Jocko Willink?

  And that's, uh, that's the way it goes.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Another tip in, um, I am a twin. I don't have twins.

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you don't know, uh, Echo Charles is a twin. And by the way, we've got some requests for the Echo's story. So maybe next podcast, we can wear here Echo's story.

• 2:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, yeah, sure.

• 2:04:16Jocko Willink?

  I'll give you three minutes and 30 seconds for it.

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  That's all I need. Um, but no one, when I had my daughter and I'm, I'm pretty into working out. So, you know, to, to not work out was kind of hard or not have the time. But here's the thing. I'm really into like the luxurious situation, resting for a long time and getting really mentally ready, like taking an hour and a half to get ready for, I was used to that. So that was a big, a big change to, to not have that much rest and not have, have that much time. So.

• 2:04:46Jocko Willink?

  And now you're doing Jocko podcast. You get even less, less.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, she's three now, so it's different. Um, but a, a thing that helps on top of everything you said, which is in my opinion, absolutely correct. A hundred percent. Um, to, to add to it is work with your, you know, wife or husband. If you're a girl, you know, and you're, and you guys have like, kind of communicate with them. Tell them that, you know, working out and staying in shape is, is important to me or whatever, or, and a good way to put it is. Getting unhealthy at this time with our new kids is means a lot, you know, if I do that like it means a lot to stay healthy.

• 2:05:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  Um, so you know, if you communicate, that'll help as well because you can work with each other. You know how like, you know, when you have a new kids. Um, it's kind of like one guy can, you know, capitalize on a rest time, you know?

• 2:05:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:39Speaker 01

  And then, you know, the other guy will kind of stand watch with with the kids and the other, the other person can can get rest. So if you communicate, that'll help your situation so much.

• 2:05:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So I am guilty here of unintentional communications. Because if I, you know, when, when, when my wife and I, when our kids were young. If I didn't work out. And quite honestly, if I didn't train jujitsu, I'm, I'm, yeah, I was, I, I wouldn't recognize it, but it just would really like frustrate me.

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:17Jocko Willink?

  And so eventually she said, you know what? Just get your stupid ass out of here and go train.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Because I'd rather just have you go.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  And that's when, that's when I, you know, we, I'd show up at the gym at eight o'clock at night, like Dean would be done teaching class and I'd come in there and we'd train for thirty eight minutes.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:34Jocko Willink?

  You know, just go in there, get it on and come home.

• 2:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, try not to do that where you're a jerk.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:41Jocko Willink?

  But there's something, I mean, I talk about this all the time, that there is, there is a mind body connection that is undeniable.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't find a place to get that aggression out and get that, the endorphins flowing. And get the, the, the good feeling that you get from physical activity, then you're gonna turn, you're gonna turn a little bit nasty.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:06Jocko Willink?

  That's not good.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and of course that, that.

• 2:07:08Jocko Willink?

  I bet you a lot of relationships really suffer from that and people don't recognize it.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  I, I think so too. I think, uh, in my experience from talking to people, okay, so, okay, so that element, that element of, of exercising and it being interrupted by a new kids or something like that. That'll vary from person to person, right? So you being all nuts because you can't train.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  You know, the next guy might not be that nuts. It might affect him maybe this much, maybe this much, you know, it's different. Um, and A, that goes along with what I said, like communicating.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  Actively, you know, not like telling, not you like, you know.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Doing what you did, but communicate. And at the same time, if you're aware of it, which it can be the hard part, if you're aware that you're just not as happy. Just, just know that. So really kind of check yourself. If you feel yourself losing your temper, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm unhappy because I'm sacrificing a few training days.

• 2:08:02Jocko Willink?

  You're right. The red flag of, that's, that's a good, great point. The red flag of. Hey, it sucks having kids.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:08:12Jocko Willink?

  The red flag, the reason you're feeling that is because it's this, part of that reason is because it's disrupting your physical activity.

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:19Jocko Willink?

  So recognize that and then do something about it.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  Communicate with your spouse.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:25Jocko Willink?

  Set up a plan.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:26Jocko Willink?

  Get a pull-up bar, get a kettlebell in the house.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Do, and, and make it happen.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a good plan.

• 2:08:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's not going to be as luxurious as, you know, as you're used to.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  You're not going to be optimum. It's not a time for optimum.

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  And a lot of times that, well, with me, that bothered me.

• 2:08:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  You know, not, it didn't, I didn't really pay much of a price, you know, for, as far as it bothering me when someone bothers me, I don't like lose my temper typically. But I did feel that, be like, oh my gosh, I don't have that much time or I don't have the energy because I didn't get enough sleep and it was kind of annoying, but.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  At the same time, I did adapt and I got real good at, um, you know, like the exercise, like gym, gymnasts can do it like on a palm or something where. I'd go on the ground, I'd sit with my legs and feet out in front and you can lift your.

• 2:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Elset.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, I got real good at doing that. But, um, nonetheless, uh, this, back to the jujitsu thing, um, two things.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, communicate, understand when you're starting to get a little irritated because you didn't didn't train. Understand that and then handle it accordingly. That's A. On the flip side, if you have to recognize, because okay, this is a typical situation where now you have kids, yet you still want to go train jujitsu.

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  But your wife is like, how how can you reconcile going to train with your buddies? You know, because a lot of times the girlfriend or the wife will think that that's just some some fun and games.

• 2:09:52Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no. In their mind, they think it's another relationship you basically have going on, you know, it's like a whole nother thing.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  But they don't understand the importance.

• 2:09:58Jocko Willink?

  They're jealous of the jujitsu.

• 2:10:00Speaker 01

  Potentially, yes. And it's a spectrum. So it's important to to, like I said, communicate and let them let them know that it's not that.

• 2:10:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  You know, and they don't always get it. I understand that. But if you just can communicate and effectively get the message that it is an important thing in life.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Hey, hey, listen, darling, what's important to you? What's, well, you know, because you know, know what it is, whether it's their running or whether it's their biking or whether it's their

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  Anything.

• 2:10:28Jocko Willink?

  date night with their girls or whatever the case may be. That's what you've got. This is what I've got. I got these two things. I gotta work out. I gotta train some jujitsu.

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's what I gotta do.

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  But be be fair, though, like if you're going seven days a week before the kids and you still want to go seven days with three hours a day, understand that, okay, you got kids now.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  You gotta bring it down to like six days a week.

• 2:10:50Jocko Willink?

  I was really bad.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see that. But it's in a way, it's not fair, you know, like to not only to your wife, but to the fact that you have kids now, you know, there's only so much Jocko can go around.

• 2:11:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't, I'm questioning whether I should tell this, but I'm going to. So there was times where I would come home from work in the SEAL Teams, work until seven o'clock at night. I come home from work, walk through the door, drop my work bag and pick up my gym bag. My wife's there with three young kids and she would be looking at me.

• 2:11:35Jocko Willink?

  With the expression of, are you freaking serious? Cause you know, you're, I'm only home for, let's call it four days, then I'm going on another trip, then I'm home for three days. So those four days, she's thinking, cool, he's home for four days, family time. I'm thinking, cool, home for four days, mat time. And, but again, what she realized was that if she was to stop me, she's got a jerk in the house now, not, not even, I mean, just, just, it just is, it's just the reality of it. You know, I just would be really frustrated with the situation. And all I want to do is just go train because it's part of who I am.

• 2:12:19Jocko Willink?

  And I want to get on the mat and I want to get better and I want to, it's very selfish, right? I mean, all those reasons are selfish, but that be, that, that being said, but it, the reality is, that's, that's me. That's me.

• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:39Jocko Willink?

  That's me and you can't change.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Yes, you can. Well, of course, of course, it's still gonna be you, but you know, this is gonna sound real obvious and cliche, but the whole compromise thing, you know, when, when you guys have a bunch of kids, you gotta compromise that. And don't be like, hey, everyone else in the whole group, by the way, the kids even, the, you know, your wife, everyone in the whole group, you guys compromise a factor of eight out of 10. Me, I'm just gonna compromise a factor of point five, cause I'm still gonna go to jujitsu every single day for as long as I've done it. You know, do all the things that you've done before you have kids, you can't do that.

• 2:13:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  I don't think you can do that.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, you shouldn't do that, but I am saying.

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  And I did.

• 2:13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of it, cause you're not aware, a lot of time, you're not saying, you know what, I know I'm being a dick right now. And you know what, I'm okay with being a dick right now. You know, and I sure fall for not letting me train or whatever.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess I, I might not have been the best.

• 2:13:40Jocko Willink?

  The best husband.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Hey, live and learn, man. Live and learn. And it's, it's, I don't wanna say it's good, but when you have new kids and especially twins.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I never had twins.

• 2:13:52Speaker 01

  It, it does allow you to kinda reconcile what's important, you know, like, let's say every Tuesday you went to Taco Tuesday or something like that and drank every Tuesday right before kids. Now you got twins, it's like, man, really, how, you, you get to honestly ask yourself, is that kinda stuff important now?

• 2:14:11Jocko Willink?

  No, Taco Tuesday's not important.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Compared to kids, yeah, no, but you could say time with my friends is important and all this other stuff, but the drinking and just all little, little detailed things that you can easily go without and in a lot of cases do better without, but they're vices or whatever. When you can, when you have twins or new kids or, or just kids in general, you do get that opportunity to reconcile what's more important.

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, you get to prioritize and execute.

• 2:14:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  I do.

• 2:14:41Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  We have a congratulations, twins, it's a big deal.

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no doubt. I hope their, I hope their names are Echo and Jean.

• 2:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, name whatever. Yeah.

• 2:14:54Jocko Willink?

  We got time for one more, we've been going long, yeah.

• 2:14:58Speaker 01

  Um, Jocko, knowledge is a powerful tool. To become knowledgeable, you must ask good questions. Do you have advice for asking good questions?

• 2:15:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, knowledge is a powerful tool, for sure. Eh eh eh, I mean, it's, it's the master of tools, right? It's where all your tools come from. Because without knowledge, there's nothing. And, you know, you take that one step further and really knowledge is, it's a weapon. It's the ultimate weapon.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  And it trumps all other weapons, right? Thought is what wins. The mind is what wins. The knowledge is what wins.

• 2:15:53Jocko Willink?

  And you absolutely, you, you, you gain knowledge by asking questions, right? So my advice for asking questions is pretty simple. Question everything.

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Don't, don't just accept anything as truth. Question it all. Question everything. I tell my kids when they go to school to sit in the front of the classroom. And when they, when they, when they don't understand something, the second they don't understand something, just put your hand right up in the air.

• 2:16:32Jocko Willink?

  And say, I don't understand that. I don't understand that part. Can you go over that again?

• 2:16:38Jocko Willink?

  And that's how you need to be in life. That's how I try to be.

• 2:16:44Jocko Willink?

  When you don't understand a word, break out a dictionary and look it up.

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  If you don't understand a concept, break down the concept until you do understand it. If you don't know how something works, dig into it until you do know how it works. Ask every question that comes to mind.

• 2:17:05Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not saying that you have to blurt out, why, why, why, why this, like a five-year-old. At everything you see, but yes, ask those questions and learn. And most importantly.

• 2:17:20Jocko Willink?

  Question yourself. Question yourself every day. Ask yourself.

• 2:17:28Jocko Willink?

  Who, who am I?

• 2:17:32Jocko Willink?

  What have I learned? What have I created? What forward progress have I made?

• 2:17:42Jocko Willink?

  Who have I helped?

• 2:17:46Jocko Willink?

  What am I doing to improve myself today to get better, faster, stronger, healthier, smarter?

• 2:17:58Jocko Willink?

  Ask yourself,

• 2:18:02Jocko Willink?

  is this what I want to be? This? Is this all I've got? Is this everything I can give?

• 2:18:16Jocko Willink?

  Is this

• 2:18:19Jocko Willink?

  going to be my life?

• 2:18:26Jocko Willink?

  And do I accept that?

• 2:18:35Jocko Willink?

  You gotta ask yourself those questions, those hard questions, and you gotta answer them. You gotta answer them truthfully, and you gotta realize that all of us, all of us

• 2:18:51Jocko Willink?

  can do better. We can be better.

• 2:18:57Jocko Willink?

  You just gotta take that first step. And that first step is when you begin to ask those questions.

• 2:19:12Jocko Willink?

  So, advice on asking questions? Ask the hard questions. And ask the hard questions of yourself.

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  And in the answers to those questions

• 2:19:30Jocko Willink?

  is where you find that path.

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  The path to progress and the path to freedom

• 2:19:43Jocko Willink?

  inside your mind.

• 2:19:50Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 2:19:53Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to all the troopers out there for tuning in, listening, spending some time in my mind with my strange little thoughts. Appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me on the interweb connecting. It definitely is cool to have everybody connecting with me and giving me feedback, giving us feedback about what's going on, supporting the podcast, listening, downloading, subscribing, reviewing, all that stuff is very helpful and very cool. And we got a couple of other things that we can do, that you can do if you want to support. If you want to support the podcast. So what can they do, Echo?

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  First thing they can do, if you want, when you do your Amazon shopping, just click through the link on our website. Two websites, jockopodcast.com and jocko store.com. Some people don't know about that one. We do have shirts. I haven't mentioned that before. We have shirts if you like those. Get some of those and a coffee mug if you want, if you like them. And then you can, we have a Facebook page now.

• 2:21:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:21:00Speaker 01

  Facebook.com.

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's so people can ask a little bit longer questions.

• 2:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because yeah, sometimes it's hard to ask questions in, you know, 140 characters or less and actually less than that because you gotta put the Jocko link, you know. So good. The Facebook page is facebook.com slash Jocko Podcast. And you know, like it, and then you can put your questions there and answer those ones. Yeah, and there, there it is.

• 2:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Then you, then you got the, you got the donation thing too, right?

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:21:28Jocko Willink?

  People are asking for it.

• 2:21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a strong request for the donation situation. And I didn't know how to feel about it at first, but man, yeah, thank you. Thank you guys for that. And it is available.

• 2:21:39Jocko Willink?

  So people, I did it.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:41Jocko Willink?

  I was feeling good.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, $4.34, $4.34.

• 2:21:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what I did. $4.34 a month is from, is from Jocko. So if you want to donate, you can donate. And besides, you know, thanks for all that support. Thanks for getting the book, Extreme Ownership, you know, hardcover, Kindle, audiobook, if you didn't know that. Review it. And you know what? All that stuff is great, but most importantly, here's what you need to do. Get up and get out of bed in the morning. Shake off. That dreariness and that darkness and clench your fists and go out into the light and out into the world and get after it. That's what you need to do. So until next time, this is Jocko and Echo.

• 2:22:30Jocko Willink?

  Out.