Jocko Underground: How to Deal with Adult Bullies.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Facing a flagrant hostile bully at work. Organize your thoughts and get things done correctly. Getting people on board with things they think are not necessary. Should you ever become a Navy SEAL? Your follow-up emails are messing up your relationships. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 156 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Got some questions from the troops. First one, I'll be interested to see your assessment of the first one.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  Let's get into it.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Goes hard. Okay. First question, I work in a role where I often make final decisions on business financing transactions. I've worked in this role for three years, playing a major part in turning the company around to the positive. We have an internal sales team who work on commission of these transactions. And I have the final say if they're approved or not, and these decisions are factually 100% up to discretion. There's one team member in particular who it seems cannot handle adverse decisions and goes out of the way to over the top, or sorry, goes out of the way to be over the top disrespectful and insulting whenever

• 0:56Speaker 01

  there's a chance to speak to me without the C-level execs around, very small company. Over three years, what started as simply crass has escalated to outright offensive. Sexual jokes about my wife and two-year-old son, outright just calling me a faggot and telling me fuck you first thing in the morning, not leaving my office when asked and standing over my shoulder trying to make sure I'm skipping to his files. I'm confident in my ability to physically defend myself, small guy with five years of jujitsu training, not too scary. However, as a guy doing a job in finance, trying to support a soon-to-be family of four, physical violence is not worth the risk, especially in the workplace over somebody who is clearly acting horribly and in the wrong.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  It took too long for me to formally complain about this behavior due to exhausting any other methods to deescalate. But when I finally did, with a witness of our CFO, said they could potentially discipline this person, but basically implied I was being a big fat pussy over this whole thing by saying, "Have you just told him not to do that?" So I went to the, you know, to somebody for assistance and he said, "Have you just told him not, just not to do that?" Same thing. This has been going on for three years. I'm the awkward, laughable, and physically harmless enemy standing between them and their money. I believe that I'm trying to handle this correctly. I believe that the complete lack of support in this situation is reason to give up on this place.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  The answer I got out of that conversation proves they do not care about me and have no future there. Either that, or they're just stupid. Maybe I'm stupid. I don't know. What's your thoughts?

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're not stupid. You're doing a good job. You're you're trying to remain detached. You're staying calm. Sounds like this guy's a jerk, honestly.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  This guy sounds like a jerk. He sounds like a bully. And if you train jiu-jitsu, I would I would not be I would I would I would push back against this dude. I would probably move his files right to the bottom. You know what I'm saying? What like, was he is he gonna attack you? Is he gonna assault you? Is that what he's gonna do? If he does, he's gonna get choked out. Like, that's what's happening. You've backed down enough. You've de-escalated enough. It's been three years. And look, I'm not saying get into a fight with him, but I'm saying do not get pushed around anymore. He at a certain point with someone that's making sexual jokes about your wife and your two-year-old son.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  And this is a person that you work with, is a person you interact with? Like, this isn't some dirtbag on the street that says something about your wife, whatever, dude. This is a human being that you work with and interact with that's disrespectful and not acceptable. Not acceptable. You make sexual jokes about my two-year-old son, and it's not acceptable. You are not gonna get you that's not gonna happen. So.

• 4:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would, I would probably just push back against this guy a lot. I would say, yeah, you're, I'll get to your file when I'm ready.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  What's he gonna get in your face? Can you yell and scream? Yep, I'm not doing it. I just went one down, one, one, even one more down. By the way, like, I'm not giving you this commission on this one. What are you talking about? Cool, bring it up the chain of command. You know, you, now, look, I don't wanna, you don't wanna do anything that's not, you wanna maintain the high ground. So what I just said is not, I'm saying if the guy doesn't deserve the commission, don't give it to him.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and, and listen, in meantime, as you start that process, I would get your resume ready, because this place sounds freaking crazy for a guy to be acting like this and for no one, for, for it to be allowed to happen. You allowed it to happen? That's bad.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  It's not, it's not bad when you allow it a little bit, when you're like, okay, the dude's frustrated, I'm not gonna fly off the handle, but three years, a guy making sexual comments about your wife? Nope, can't, can't do that, bro. Can't do that. And, and you know me, dude, I'm as unemotional as it gets, but you work with this individual. What's he doing to other people? This guy's a bully.

• 5:16Jocko Willink?

  So, that's what I would do. I'd start preparing the resume. You, obviously, you're a hard worker, you got a bunch of experience, you've been there for three years, you know, you play a major part, eh, you, you've played a major part in turning around the company. This guy's a jerk, this guy's a bully, and I would definitely not accept this type of behavior from him. And, and you know, your, your boss had said, have you just told him not to do that? Yep, you should. Like, hey, uh, don't talk to me like that. What are you gonna do about it? Well, I'm not gonna process into your files.

• 5:50Jocko Willink?

  You can't do that. Well, yes, I can. I got all these other four people, I'm gonna do theirs first. Maybe I'll get to yours today. What's he gonna do? Yell and scream? If he goes and yells and screams? Cool, this guy treats me bad, and I'm not doing his stuff. You can give him to someone else.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  You, this is, this is just unacceptable behavior, man. Honestly, it's just unacceptable behavior. So, you know, again, the whole idea of like, I got disrespected. You've heard me talk about this before. Like 99% of the time, it doesn't matter because a person that's disrespecting you doesn't even respect themselves. They're trying to cause problem. They're looking for reaction, all that stuff. This guy's a bully. He's saying things about your wife and your son? Like unacceptable. It's just unacceptable behavior. And yeah, I would, I would, look, I don't want to go over the top and say like, you should antagonize him and make him get physical with you.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  Because that would be wrong. But you have nothing to fear here. Like this guy's a jerk. And he's being a jerk to a lot of human beings. So I would hold the line. I would not accept any of this behavior from him. I would probably have like a recorder, my phone, ready to record his dumb ass when he does this dumb stuff and when he like attacks you. When he gets in your face. And when he gets in your face, laugh at him. Be like, dude. You're an idiot. I'll do, I'll do the file when I feel like it. I'll do the file in the order that got turned in. You're not getting moved to the front of the list. Oh, what'd you just call me? What'd you just call me? You just said about my wife?

• 7:35Jocko Willink?

  Um, I'll tell you what. If you want to talk that way to me. I am going to talk to our leadership about your behavior. What are you gonna do? Yeah, I'm gonna run it up the chain of command. And I'm not gonna do your file. And you can take it elsewhere. And just stay calm. And he's gonna try and push you or take a swing at you and then put him to sleep. I hate to say it, bro. Whatever, but we all think that kid's tough. Am I wrong? No, you're, I don't feel like you're. Okay.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  You just said, record him.

• 8:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  So.

• 8:12Jocko Willink?

  Is that illegal?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think there's certain guidelines.

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, I would say, I would say not, I would say not clandestinely record him. But just be like, oh, hit the phone, be like, I just hit record. What do you gotta say?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  For quality.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, just to make sure we, you know, for the complaint department. Yeah. What was that? Yeah. That's a perfect line. Hey, for quality assurance, I'm gonna hit record on this phone right now. What do you talk to me?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, bro.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing? And he's gonna swear at you and stuff?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So even the clandest, the spy, the record, look, I'm pretty much against that kind of stuff. Like, you know, like invading people's privacy like that. It's like, you know how, it's almost like, well, you know, what's the freaking law? The illegal search in Caesar, right? You know, that thing where it's like, hey, you don't have a warrant because you're gonna start looking for this very specific thing. You're gonna find some other stuff about people's privacy. I get it, bro. So I wouldn't normally say that. But if it's to this degree.

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dude, this guy's out of control, man.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is like out of line deliberately. It's not like he got mad.

• 9:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  He's like, what? Like an under, you know, Andrew Paul talks about this dynamic, right? Like the underwriter has to kind of prove these things. So that guy, and you, I would imagine he'd kind of understand like, hey, some people are gonna get mad. If I don't approve this stuff, I get it.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  This guy's been doing this for three years. Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's not like the guy's just sort of getting angry and then the guy's just all sensitive, taking it personal. Bro, this guy's getting straight up personal on purpose. By the way, saying stuff about his wife, his son, all this like weird stuff and like, so he, he obviously knows the difference, you know, between taking it personal and straight up, it is personal, right? So when it gets to this degree, bro, I'm kind of for it, to be honest with you, because he's doing it for a very specific purpose, you know? Where he's like, hey, I'm gonna keep this, I'm gonna record this for, I don't know, a month. I don't know, however long. And then I'm gonna bring it up and I'm gonna bring it up in kind of a big way. Be like, hey, this is like, there's some laws, I don't know, some HR laws.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  A month's worth of recordings?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Recording, yeah. So then, yeah, when you bring it up in a big official way, if it got to that point, you know? Um, bro, yeah, I got evidence. I mean, hey, whether it's admissible or not, that's, that's a whole nother issue. But we got the evidence, see what I'm saying? But anyway, yeah.

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Put a little quality assurance, put a label on it. Put it up on the wall, quality assurance.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Being recorded.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You're being recorded at this time. You know, I, I talked about this before. Sometimes you gotta bark. You know, like

• 10:34Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 10:34Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you gotta bark because this, this like when someone comes to my house and they hear my dog bark, used to be Odin, now it's Vitar, they're not coming in.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Jocko Willink?

  Like they recognize there's a limitation to what they're gonna be able to get away with. And it ain't gonna be getting into my house. It's not even gonna be able to get in my deck, my ba- my back patio. We got the dog door. Like he's coming out to get you.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  That's what's gonna happen. But when you hear, so when somebody says fuck you. And look, when they say it, cause they're walking down the street and they say fuck you, man. And you go, yeah, whatever, dude. Like you don't even respond. You don't even say whatever, dude.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:10Jocko Willink?

  Just completely ignore them. Someone cuts you off and rolls down their window in traffic. Just fuck you, motherfucker. Don't even look at him. Just carry on with your day. Like that's what we're doing. When you work with someone and this is how they behave, you gotta, you gotta put a stop to that shit. Fuck you. Fuck who?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're freaking so right.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying? Like

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this, this dude's totally out of line, totally out of line.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  I'm so glad this dude trains jujitsu. So awesome.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good little like, what do you call like boundary, right? Like, like good little like the, I'm gonna say this again. You're more right than you know, cause there's that, right? Where it's like, you know, there's, there's so many elements to the value of barking, as it were. Where, yeah, it kinda like indicates like, hey, I'm just not gonna be like pushed around and stuff like that. Cause especially when it's out of line like this. But here's actually one that's more important, even on like lower levels. Because let's say, which is actually pretty likely when you think about it, because there's people like this where they have, they have a dark, dirty sense of humor, you know?

• 12:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  And sure, that sense of humor can, when they get angry, can kinda overflow into being mean and stuff like that. But that, but generally speaking, just at, at idle. They idle at that weird like kinda crass kinda state, right? Where they talk, they swear a little bit too much. They talk a little bit dirty, you know, and especially if there's all guys or whatever. It's like kinda, it can be part of the culture sometimes, you know? So if this guy's saying going too far and he's just like, whatever, I'll just suck it up and you know, whatever. He's, the guy is kinda like, sure, I know I'm being mean, but I don't realize how mean I'm really being because I'm not getting any feedback in that way.

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  No pushback, no bark.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  No bark.

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  Keep walking into that house. There's no, no warning signs.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So, um, Frank, I was literally talking to my brother about this today where it's like, After, well, especially if that's part of your personality, a little, a little bit or a lot, and you just normally act like that and you get no bark, you are going to continue to do that stuff. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it to be mean, to be more and more mean. Sometimes it's just how.

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And no one's really like putting those speed bumps in the, you know, that you kind of need to, to curb your behavior like that, you know?

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I kind of have to just complete this thought. You know, cause I kind of, when I, when I, when I said, you know, when the guy says, fuck you, go fuck, who? Fuck you. Don't talk to me like that. And when the guy now says to you. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  go to jacood underground.com and subscribe and we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's jacood underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance at jacood underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.