478: Be The Comprehensive Human The Moment Demands. Jason Wilson Pt.2

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Jason Wilson faced many challenges growing up-the types of challenges that make many men turn down the wrong path-the demonic path that destroys people and ruins their souls. But, Jason was able to break away from that path-and get on another path: the Righteous Path...and he has helped thousands of people do the same through his books: Cry Like a Man, Battle Cry, and his most recent book, The Man the Moment Demands: Master the Ten Characteristics of the Comprehensive Man. He is an author, the founder and director of The Cave of Adullam Transformational Academy, Star of the Lawrence Fishburne-produced documentary, called The Cave of Adullam, he is a lifelong martial artist, and he is a husband and father. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 478 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:05Jocko Willink?

  Also, back with us again for round two. If you didn't listen to 477, we brought on Jason Wilson. He's back again and we are going to talk through where we, we're going to pick up where we left off last time. So last time, again, if you haven't listened to that one yet, go listen to 477. We cover kind of, you know, Jason's background growing up, you know, what he went through and how he ended up sitting here today talking to me. Went through a lot of struggles as a young man and a lot of temptations, a lot of off ramps that he could have taken along the way. But by the grace of God, he's here sitting with us.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  And we'll get back into it. So the movie comes out now, is there, is there possibilities of other movies?

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, the talk, the main goal was Cry Like A Man, make that into a movie. And that's what Lawrence really loved that book. He, he would tell me, you can't even make this stuff up. Like, we would have to get this out. And so we'll see what happens. Definitely would love to do a movie on that book. I think it'd be really, well, I know it would be really powerful.

• 1:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's, that's the end goal.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  It'd be good because man, people need good examples. And for someone that has been through what you've been through and to still live a life that is exemplary is just such a great example for people. And, and, and look, you're not, you know, it's, it's cool if we make a movie about, you know, the, the football star or the rock and roll star or whatever, but to make a movie about a normal man.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:50Jocko Willink?

  That does extraordinary things with nor, with, in a normal environment.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  You know, was, man, you, you're making me think of a lot of things that like, man, the path that I took trying to attain certain things came when I just did what God wanted me to do. So for instance, I always wanted to meet certain rappers and influencers. And here it is Lawrence Fishburne calling, rappers reaching out to me that are real popular. Not for producing, just being a regular man, helping boys and men heal and be authentic. And that's really humbling and to some extent sobering like, man, if you just walk in your purpose, you know, pursue that. And I'm chasing music and all these other things. He's like, no, I need you to chase me.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  And when you chase me, you will find your purpose. And then when you find your purpose, now you live up to your name, which Jason actually means healer. And so actually healer, the Lord of Salvation. And so I embody that that meaning. And so it's just, just looking back, even looking at the books on his table, like, man, there's three books from a young man that's been through so much, you know, well, old man, older man. But yeah, it's, everyone needs hope, man, you know, as dark as this world can get at times, you know, I'm convicted to shine my light more. A friend of mine in jujitsu, I wanted to stop. I said, man, this is too much, you know. He says, well, when are the good guys going to get in the light?

• 3:21Speaker 01

  And I never forgot that. And then when Christ says, we are to let our light shine in such a way that men to see our good works, but glorify him who is in heaven. So we're supposed to be bright. We're not supposed to blind people where we should give them enough light where they can find their way. And so when I found that, I found the peace that I'd been yearning for, that nothing else could give me and the purpose. So, yeah, you triggering a lot today, man. Yeah, appreciate it.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  That's wild. You know, we were talking about, so I've written a bunch of kids books. And when you write books, the publishers want to keep you in the category that you've been successful in. So, you know, I had written at the time, I had written a book called Extreme Ownership. And it was, it did incredibly well, like off the charts, very lucky, blessed with that scenario. So what's the next thing I deliver to my editor, my publisher? I say, I want to write a kids book. And my publisher, he just said to me, hey, look, no, it's like you're, you know, that's not like, that's a totally different genre and it's fiction and it's kids and it's totally different.

• 4:31Jocko Willink?

  And you don't wanna, if you do that and it doesn't go well, your next book, your adult book is not gonna be this thing you want about, a million reasons. And you look, to, to his credit, you know, he's from that industry. I'm, I'm naive and dumb and, you know, he's trying to help me. And just say, listen, it's not worth the risk to do that. But I, I had the story in my head. I knew what, I, I, I was gonna write it. And so luckily, you know, I just said, well, I know you don't want me to do it, but I'm doing it. And wrote that book. And again, just very blessed, did incredibly well.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  And then I followed it up with two, three, four, five, six, five more books. Kids books and they've all been, you know, successful and, and now they're, you know, we filmed a movie on it. So. Amazing, man. It's gonna be so nice to see this movie come out. And the positive impact it's gonna have. The, the message, the messages that are in it are just, they're just wholesome, good messages, delivered in a way that, that people are gonna be. It's gonna give a good role model to kids. They're gonna see a good way, good path forward. They're gonna see that you can step up, you can face challenges.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  You can face the hard things in life. There's gonna be hard things in life. And it's gonna, gonna help kids out, so. Are you in it? I am in it, yes. Now, the role that I play is a, is a real stretch for me as an actor.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Why you laugh?

• 6:13Jocko Willink?

  Because, check this out Jason, in the movie, I play a retired SEAL commander, Lieutenant Commander, retired SEAL Lieutenant Commander, who owns a place called Victory MMA and Fitness, where he teaches kids jujitsu.

• 6:32Jocko Willink?

  So that's the role that I play.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Some range.

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, it was a big stretch, uh, you know, hopefully I didn't make Chris Pratt look too bad, you know? Man, he's good. What a great guy. Yeah, what a great, and you said he reached out to you for a book?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  So, so I, I didn't know he was following me. And so I was just blown away that I had inspired him in any way. And then to find out he's a believer as well, and I messaged, I messaged him about just, just letting him know like, man, I'm just blown away. And then when this book came out, The Man, The Moment, The Man's, I said, would you like a copy? I could send it to you. He was like, man, I love your work, absolutely, this is and that. And when the fires happened,

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  he didn't respond. So I, I, I wondered if he didn't get it. And so when you brought up that he's a major role in this film, I'm like, okay, thank you, guy. I just want to get him this book because he's a really cool guy, man, from what I could tell, man.

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  He's a great guy. Yeah, his, his house was spared. But, you know, the fires in Pacific Palisades, this is common knowledge, right? The fires were in Pacific Palisades in Los Angeles, California, uh, just south of Malibu, just north of Santa Monica, that area was almost completely destroyed. And his house is, you know, like right in there, right smack dab in the middle of it. And by the grace of God, his house was spared. But I don't, but I don't even know what that means. Like, I don't, can you imagine trying to move back into your neighborhood and there's nothing there? Like, there's nothing there but like, uh, ash and smoke and chemicals and there's no, I don't know if they have power. I don't know if they have water.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Like, I don't know what the situation is. So, yeah, if you sent it to him via mail, well, I'll,

• 8:13Speaker 01

  It was in the midst, it was during that time.

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I, I bet he didn't get it. Um, but yeah, he, he's just a, a, a great guy. And he does a great job in the role. It's, it's, it's amazing to watch guys like that, you know, they're just, so he's such a pro.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:30Jocko Willink?

  And he cared so much, you know? He brought that movie to life because when, you know how it is in Hollywood. It's it's nothing short of a miracle to get something actually made, right? So like for you to have the documentary made, that's amazing.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  And it's gonna take a minor miracle to get Cry Like a Man made. Not and and what really bothers me is you'll go watch most movies that come out, you're like, how did this get made? How did Cry Like a, how is Cry Like a Man not being made into a movie? And there's some random thing that's not good for human beings. And it's getting made and it's getting promoted.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Is this similar, I heard like even with Disney, they're, they live off of the one hit. And the rest of the movies, even if they fail, they still survive. It's I'm hearing it's it's like that in Hollywood.

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  So that's, I know that's how books are. Yes, they are. So with books, you know, uh, they publish a hundred books. They want one of them to be a hit. And if one of them is a hit, they can, they can survive for another year. I'm sure Hollywood is something similar to that. They, no one, you know, it's super expensive to make a movie. Especially once you're, cause filming a documentary, even that's expensive, but that's not as expensive as damn. Uh, a feature film.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  You get like, you get like between one and three minutes of movie a day. So on a 12 to 15 hour day of filming, you get one to three minutes of movie.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 10:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz it's crazy. They film it from this angle, they filmed, if they were filming this right here, they'd film all of us three from a distance. They'd film it over Echo's shoulder pointed at you, over Echo's shoulder pointed at me, over your shoulder pointed at me, over your shoulder pointed at Echo, over my shoulder pointed at Echo, my shoulder pointed. That's what was that? Nine takes right there. Nine takes.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 10:28Jocko Willink?

  It's ridiculous and it's expensive. And it's so weird too, like we were in this, we were filming in this, uh, martial arts place. And Echo was telling the story later, he was like, gosh, man, the way they've got the, the way they got the sun coming into the building right now, like this is incredible. This is just such a beautiful shot because the sun is coming through the Perfect time of day. Cutting through the, cut like, and there's a little bit of, well, a little bit of sweat and steam in the room. So you can see the, the rays of the sun. And Echo's look around going, man, this is incredible that they just nailed the timing like. And then he realized a half an hour later, it looked the same. And then a half an hour later, he realized, you know what? It wasn't the real sun.

• 11:10Jocko Willink?

  It's not real. It's just, it's just the big light that looks like the sun. I showed another buddy of mine. There's a, there's a scene in a, in a, in a country fair, in a fair, you know, with a Ferris wheel and the, the different rides and the popcorn things. And one of those scenes is shot there. And it's at sunset. And so my buddy, I was showing him some pictures that I took. And he was like, dude, they nailed this shot with the sun right there. It looks so amazing. And I go, bro, that ain't the sun. And this is a picture of the sunset. You're watching this. You can see what you think is the sun. And I go, bro, that's not the sun. He's like, what? I go, that's a light. Really? Yeah, it's incredible. So everything that you see in a movie, it's so weird.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  It's not real. I know it's, I know we know that, like, it's not supposed to be a surprise, but things that are in a movie, they're not real things. And, you know, even at that, we had this fairground set up. It's totally fake. It's, it's, it's not real, but they have hot dogs. They got popcorn. They got people eating fried dough, like. People with tickets, people getting on rides. It's, it's, and all, and every single one of those people is, is an extra, is an actor that's out there, you know, doing the thing. It's, it's crazy. Wow, man. It's crazy. Wow. But the, but so, so because it's so expensive.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Because you have to put so much money upfront, that movie has to do really well on the back end. So you're right. They have to make movies. They have to cut budgets down. They have to make as many movies as they can and then hope, cross their fingers that one of those movies is a big hit. And the, the whole streaming thing now has disrupted everything. So it's wild times.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  It's wild times. And the, the thing is with, from my perspective is it opens up the, it opens up the story to so many more people. So like, a movie compared to a book is just gonna be so much more accessible to so many more people. So if they made your book Cry Like A Man into a movie, so many more people are gonna see that than are gonna be reading the book. Unfortunately, you know, I wish it wasn't like that, but those are the facts of the case.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what Charles likes to say.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  And streaming actually, it, it was, it cut the movie, the lifetime down like that three weeks now.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I'm sure it's something like that. By the way, we didn't mention this. The, the documentary is available. Your documentary is available on ESPN.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, ESPN plus.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  ESPN plus. So if you wanna watch that, it's awesome. It's awesome to watch. It's awesome to follow these kids. I'm sure you could even do a follow-up of that. Does that, cause that was made, what? Three, three years ago? Four years ago?

• 13:57Speaker 01

  We started shooting, we stopped shooting right before COVID.

• 14:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so that's like four years old.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  So you should, you'd be checking back in with these kids in a couple of years. See how they're doing.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  We could do that. Yeah, I still talk to them. But yeah, we, thankfully Helen, who was Lawrence's manager, like pushed to shoot in December, cause we didn't know what was coming in 2020. And so we lost two years there pretty much.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  Gosh.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  And that's what happened. Yeah. And it was unfortunate too, because the boys who were going through the rite of passage, we lost two years with them.

• 14:29Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  So it was very tough. Yeah, very tough times.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  What's the percentage of people that stick with the program at the cave? And what's the age? What age do I start?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Eight, eight years old. We started eight until 12 years old.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  So it's eight to 12?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  What are the percentages of kids that, that make it through those years?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:49Jocko Willink?

  Four years.

• 14:51Jocko Willink?

  Is it most of them?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say almost all of them because we have an eight hundred kid waiting list right now. And so if you're able to get in, the parents, you're not leaving. You know, they want you in there because of what it does to you outside of the martial arts piece.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  There was part of the movie, I was watching the movie and this, they're talking to this woman, this mom. And I forget the exact thing, but she says, you know, you know, my son was doing this, my son was doing that. You know, I tried this, I tried that. And she goes, he needed the cave.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  My wife and I were watching, my wife started laughing. She's like, oh, I know that feeling. He needed the cave.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  That's Crystal, yeah. Yeah, that was, I think that's Gabe's mom, yeah, it sure was.

• 15:34Jocko Willink?

  She knew what was up. He needed the cave.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  And that's what they say when they come, if I'm out, you know, mothers, one mother literally joined our gym where I worked out at to make sure she ran into me.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So we got eight hundred kids on a waiting list. Are you, is there not a way to, uh, to, for lack of a better word, franchise it so other people can run a program?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  It is. The, the problem is you have to be more than just a martial artist. So now you have to deal with psychology, emotional intelligence. And a lot of men haven't dealt with their own things to be able to help a child. And so I have great martial artists will come and say, hey, I want to help. Great. I give them a book list, dive into you and see where you are. And I don't hear back from them because, you know, we're running in front of bullets to save our families. But when we have to deal with our own issues, we won't go in that direction because it's painful. And a lot of it, a lot of men don't want to unearth those memories and because again, it's going to bring forth emotions that we are taught from childhood we shouldn't feel.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, it's, it's heartrending. You know, you say, well, eight hundred kids, that's a lot. But at the same time, it's like, man, many of these kids will age off by the time we call them. And so I, I goal is to make an academy, a school, middle school. That way the Cave of Adelum will be a part of the core curriculum as well. And that way we could definitely reach more kids at one time.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  What's the next step in that program?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Well, we're, we're actually gonna do a summer camp this summer to pilot it to see what it looks like for eight hour day for a young boy where he has his core curriculum as well as etiquette training. Like we do dining etiquette, financial literacy, grooming etiquette as well. And so we get to see what it looks like this summer and I've had several people, investors like, "Look, you do this, I'm behind you." I have teachers who've retired because they're tired of the school system. They say, "Look, I'll leave my job. If you do a school for boys and it's centered around the cave, I'm there." Now you can scale that.

• 17:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  That can be scaled.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  I've had a bunch of people ask me about Warrior Kid. So the kids books, I wrote Warrior Kid. I've had people ask me about that since the day the book came out. You gotta do a school with this. And that's one of the first steps that I've looked at is like, okay, well, maybe we could start with a summer camp. My son went to a wrestling camp called J-Rob. It doesn't exist anymore unfortunately, it didn't survive through, through COVID. But the guy, J. Robinson, he was a Ranger in Vietnam and he was a champion wrestler. And he, it was a great program. I mean, it was just a great program. My son went out there and, and he went with his, with his best friend. I think they were 14 or I think they were about 14 years old in between their freshman and sophomore year.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  But you know, they had to write down all their goals. They had to write down all their weaknesses. They had to write down all their strengths. They had to write down what they were gonna do to get better. They had to write down what they eat every day. They had to write down how they felt. They had to write down how they performed. They couldn't, one of my favorite things, you know, when you sit on the floor, when you sit on the mat, you sit, you lean back on your hands, not allowed to sit like that.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So it's like all those little habits. And he came back. He came back a better human.

• 18:55Jocko Willink?

  And I remember, so you gotta, you, every day you're getting graded. And if you get a certain demerit, you can't get this T-shirt. There's a T-shirt that says, I did it. And that's what the kids want. The kids want to get that T-shirt. And the last thing that you had to do was a 12-mile run. And my son had hurt his ankle the whole, like, early. And so he had a bad ankle. And I was worried, I talked to him on the phone and I said, you know, you got that run tomorrow. I said, what, you know, what are you gonna do but with your ankle? And he said, I'm gonna go the, to the athletic trainer and tell him to tape it up so it can, so it doesn't move. And I'm gonna get it done. And he did. And I was like, okay, cool.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  That's like, that's what I like to hear, you know, tape it up.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Father like son. That's awesome, man.

• 19:46Jocko Willink?

  But, but, yeah, when, when you talk about a school, turning the cave into a school. Man, that would be so good. And that's how you could scale it.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that's what I see. We've tried so many other ways and it's like, and it's a need for all cultures, honestly, you know. It's interesting on social media, you have the, I guess they call them trollers. They say, why aren't any white kids in there? And I said, well, there's no sign that says colors only. I said, so that's not on me, because God didn't give it to me just for it to be isolated in one community. Because it's designed really to help boys in general, because all of us are jacked up. You know, when that video went viral, I thought it was just a black issue as far as being emotionally incarcerated and hyper masculine, et cetera. No, it's a man issue.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  And we all need help and our kids are learning from broken men who are walking around with broken boys inside. And so it's, it's definitely something I know is cross-cultural. I have friends who are Mexican especially, they say, man, you get some of this Mexican blood in the cave. That's what they would tell me all the time. And because they know, especially in their culture, that, you know, provide and protect. And it's like, but I'm unhealthy. You know, I, I'm not even. Patient with my kids. I'm not even, I don't even love myself really. And when you can teach an eight-year-old these principles? And then around an academic setting where typically all of their issues are?

• 21:18Speaker 01

  And everyone advised by these core principles and teachings? And then the centerpiece, instead of physical ed, you have the cave? You're talking about changing a whole generation of boys. Then you're talking about changing a whole generation of men? Fathers, husbands, presidents, leaders? That's where it is. And that's, that's where we're going. We're gonna try it this summer and see how it works and my desire is to scale it. And I, I don't want it to die with me. That's my greatest prayer, like, cause I'm, my body's aging out, man. You know, I, I, it feels like I, it's almost time, you know, and it's like, but this can't die with me, you know? So God, what is it? And it's like the school,

• 22:03Speaker 01

  the teachers, the men, like they're, and I got high-quality men. And you know how many teachers are desiring for something like this? So now all you need is that one teacher for the cave, but you have the whole wraparound? Now it's a lot easier.

• 22:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  And so there's funding for that, you know, a guy gets insurance and everything and he has to teach. And your focus is the emotional stability training here to make sure that they have a foundation to be better academically? Then you incorporate job skills training, like real-life training with.

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  This is all stuff, when people asked early on, and you know, what would a warrior kid's school look like? And this is exactly what I went over. I literally was like, oh, job, we, this is one of the podcasts, one of the early podcasts we did. It was the, uh, teaching about how to do maintenance on a vehicle, teaching about how to use tools, you know, how to do basic framing and trim work. And I guess if you're there, we'd have to do some tile work as well.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And fix a hole in the wall. That's what I was telling my friends, who are gonna teach the construction, uh, um, module of the school. I said, I don't want them to be master carpenters, master plumbers, master tile setters. I need them to be, like we would say, anything, everything, they have to be at any given moment. So fix the hole in the wall so you don't have to pay a hundred and twenty-five dollars for a drywaller. Do you know how to change a flange on the toilet? How do you stop a leak? I mean, like, these are, this is where your costs are gonna come. And I'm like, you incorporate that with community service, financial literacy at a young age? Open bank accounts for all of the students to start saving and investing at nine and 10 years old? It's over.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  Game changer.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know?

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  I think there's going to be such a high demand for this kind of stuff. I think, I think the demand exists right now. And I think it's just a matter of the market supplying it, which, you know, clearly you're going to make a stab at it this summer. I'm sure it's going to be awesome. Hopefully I can get out there over the summer.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Man, I'd love to see you, especially to, so we have like four of the peer instructors who were four of the guys you gave the rash guards.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, right, Oz.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  So they would love to see you. If you can swing it that way. You were just there for your product.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, a few years ago.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  We couldn't read up that time out, yeah.

• 24:20Jocko Willink?

  I'll come and do, uh, come and, come and hang out at Meyer. They sell, they sell Jocko Fuel at Meyer.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  For sure, let me know.

• 24:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we'll make that happen. Uh, picking up where we left off last time. So the book Battle Cry. Well, talk about the premise of the book Battle Cry.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  I, I wrote that book in the midst of COVID. And so talking about dealing with your inner wars, your battles. And so many men were because for the first time in their life, they couldn't, there was no escape. There was not, I couldn't say, hey, honey, I'm at work. Uh, we home late and now I have an hour to talk to you so I can go to bed. You were in the house the entire time, children, wife.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  Did divorce rates go up or down?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Up, up. Oh, yeah. A friend of ours who was a lawyer, she was like maxed out. It was too much. Cause people never dealt with their real issues, especially the men. So we're taught to sweep it under the rug and keep going. And so that's why I wrote that book is let's yell a battle cry and wage and win our inner battles before they become external wars. And that's what the premise of that book was and to send them out to battle, the real battle. And it's within us. You know that as a SEAL, you know, uh, matter of fact, a gentleman named Ryan Maed. He was a psychologist for the Navy SEALs, 15 years. I met him. He works with the Royals now.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  And he was just intrigued by the Cave of Adullam. He was like, you don't know you're doing psychology here. He says, but I'm intrigued because it doesn't turn into a challenge. He said, that was my greatest struggle with the SEALs is like, it always turned into a challenge when you're trying to get men to deal with the emotion side. And I said, I get it. He said, how are you doing? I said, well, I think I just model it first. You know, when my kids first saw me cry, the armor, the crack in the armor, when my mother had a stroke, I couldn't be this stoic teacher anymore. And, and when that tear came out and my students saw it, it not only liberated me and the fathers who were there,

• 26:23Speaker 01

  but it liberated them. And that's when you, that video went viral because they had already were used to being transparent in that moment. And so when I, I looked at, when I met with Ryan, he was like, this is really a gift, man. And like, you should try to do it with more men as well. And he would share stories with me about the SEALs like, one, it's like you guys have to swim across, like you're not going to make it. What is that called? When you're swimming, it's a, I forgot how far you have to swim. And it was like, he was saying that a lot of guys didn't even make it all the way through.

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  There's so many things like that where most, where a lot of guys don't make, whether it's a 50 meter underwater swim.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  That's what it was.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  Which again, sounds kinda easy until you have, you know, a cough and a cold because you've been in and out of the water. And then you gotta jump in, do a somersault, swim, you know, they, they, they make everything as a little bit, even, even like a four mile timed run. The four mile timed run in first phase is 32 minutes. That's. That's, that's, that's nothing. You know what I mean?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's any, any high school athlete.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can pull that.

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  Can do that, no problem. But you get it there and you got a cold and you did, uh, you know, 700 eight-count bodybuilders at two o'clock in the morning and now you got a four-mile time run at four o'clock in the morning? You see guys fail. And by the way, the four-mile time run is anywhere between 4.1 miles and 4.5 miles, depending on where they parked the truck and what the tide is like.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Did you guys run with gear on as well?

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  Those runs are boots, cami pants and t-shirt.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  So that's a game changer as well?

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, it is. So it could have been any of these things that, that your friend Ryan was talking about.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  He didn't share a lot, but when he said, they says, you understand what you're helping them work through is what the SEALs do and how much emotions play a role even on the battlefield. And that's what drew me to you, man, hearing how you, especially at Ann Arbor, you were talking about the emotions and how you have to control them in the, in the moment or you're done. And I'm thinking on the battlefield, if you're frantic and we, we need ammunition and you're lost emotionally, we're done. And so, uh, yeah, I didn't know the, well, that seems attainable running, but when you add all those other factors in, that's why I was taken aback when you said that, like, man, I could do seven-minute mile on a good day.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, and I tried to get that down, but my knees is like, you need to Peloton.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  But yeah, um, I had, um, yeah, that, that, I know if we did a school, man, especially even with your book, what you're talking about in the movie, it's already a demand for it. Um, that's why the bootcamps existed and the scared straight programs, they was just the wrong formula. It didn't work. It made.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  Did they do, did they do, uh, or do you know about research about the, the scared straight program? Did they like track and did it help any of those kids?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know about the research. I can tell you about the boys that I knew who went through it in the schools who participated. They stopped within a year.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  No kidding?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't see the improvement. You didn't deal with the core issues. You didn't deal with the why, you know, it's similar like with martial arts, you want to know how it works, but not why it works. In a real fight, techniques will look different because you're not, you don't have a compliant attacker. Even when you're rolling with someone, you still know this guy, you know this girl, it's a lot missing from that.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  A role in the gym is different from a role in competitive match, which is different than a fight, which is different than a fight to the death. Like each one of those things has its own little.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  To the death. Yeah, guy, guy pull out one of these. It's like, oh, it changes significantly. And that's why I love when you said, the best self-defense is a gun. You said if someone pulls a knife out, run. People don't understand, like dude.

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a whole category. I was going to talk about this a little bit on the last podcast we did, but I was talking to a young, a young SEAL the other day. And so when we, when we do training, we do force on force training, which means you're going to fight other liv- living people and we use paintball, a form of paintball. It's called simunition and it, and it, you use your real gun, but you have a different barrel for it and now you're shooting paintball, but it's your real gun.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  And it's very realistic. It's very realistic. Cause you know, your pistol has simunition. If your primary goes down, you switch it, you're moving down the hallways and you can put down cover fire. But there is still something that's missing. And it's very similar to what you were talking about in the last podcast with knife fighting and like how there is a certain psychological element that you cannot train properly with a fake knife. Just like there's a psychological element that you can't train properly with fake bullets. And it's this, it's this right here. So if you're a bad guy and you're down the hallway from me,

• 31:33Jocko Willink?

  you can, you know, come out of your doorway and start shooting at me. And you could put down a whole magazine and get good, accurate fire on me by looking down your sights and shooting at me. And if I'm in the hallway, I'm going to get killed.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't exist in that situation is the actual human fear that you would have as a bad guy sticking your head around the corner. Now, when you're a jihadist, you don't care if you live or die. There's, well, some jihadists don't care if they live or die, so they're just gonna do it anyways. But some of them are gonna be like, oh, well, I don't actually want to die right now. And you see the guys doing the Medal of Honor runs, like you'd see a young, young SEAL freaking, we'd be in a paintball fight in training. You'd see a young SEAL go out, charge cross, you know, the, and grab a wounded guy who's been shot with paintball and drag him out of the street. That's, it is cool. And guys do that for real. My guys did that for real, with real bullets.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  But it's, it's different when it's real than it is with training. There's just a difference there. So the closer you can get to realism, the, the more you're gonna understand it. You're never gonna quite know. And that's why I like, you know, your instructor that said, hey, we're gonna use real knives. They're dulled, but they're real. You ever seen those knives that have the sparks in them or whatever it's called?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, electric ones.

• 32:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they elect, have you seen those? You know what a taser is, right?

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like that.

• 33:03Jocko Willink?

  So it's like a, it's like a knife taser. So it's, it can't stab you, but you get shocked.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  And you feel it.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  And you feel it like a, like a legit shock. So that way you get that real fear. Because you know, you see the, the fake martial artist that's like, oh, and someone comes out a knife with me with a knife, I do this, this and this. It's like, bro, you don't do that.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  You're not, yeah, you're not doing any of that.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  Touch you. So like, think about that stuff.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a question? So I always wanted to know, is it true that that swim you were just telling me about that Ryan talked about, if a SEAL goes under, does he like pass out for a while and you revive him? I, I heard about that. I didn't know how true that was. So to get the fear of death out, is that accurate?

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  He might have also been talking about something called drown proofing. And in drown proofing, they tie your feet together and they tie your hands behind your back. And then they put you in the water and you've got to float. Well, I forget what it's called. Survival float for like 10 minutes. Then you've got to swim. I think it's 100 meters. It's down to one end of the pool, back to the other end of the pool and back to the where you are. So it's 100 meters. And then you have to do something called bobbing, which is you basically go down to the to the nine foot section, the bottom, and you push off with your feet.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  And then they have a bunch of dive masks on the bottom of the pool. And you have to, after you do the bobbing for 10 minutes, then you have to go down to the bottom of the pool and get the mask off the bottom of the pool in your teeth. You have to get it in your mouth and bring it up and then tread water until they tell you you can stop. And then you like dolphin over to the side of the pool and they pull you up and they that.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  So that's very challenging. I'd say that's more challenging for most people than the 50 meter underwater swim. Now, do they let you drown? No. Do people have shallow water blackouts? Yes, they do. They do where they're trying to get it done and they can't and they just go to sleep. And then people jump in and save them. But what you have to learn in those things, in those, one of the key components of that is if you panic, you're not going to pass.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  How much would you say percentage wise in SEAL training is physical and emotional? Like what would your percentage be?

• 35:31Jocko Willink?

  It's impossible to say what the percentage is. Because depending on who you are, the test will be different.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Okay, I got you.

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  Right? So if you are great at running, running isn't a problem. If you're bad at running, running is a problem.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I got you.

• 35:52Jocko Willink?

  And if you're emotionally calm, or if you're just used to the water, you're going to be fine in the water. If you're not used to the water, it's going to be a problem. If you can handle some chaos, because they're going to make things chaotic. If you can handle that chaos and you can take a step back and take a breath, you'll be fine. If you can't, you're not going to be a problem. You're not going to be fine. If you can't handle someone yelling and screaming at you.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be a problem. If you can realize that they're doing their job and you're gonna do your job, keep your mouth shut, keep going, you're gonna be fine. So what it is, is there's probably, you know, just, they just figured out, everyone's got a weakness and they're gonna find it. And they can make you quit with that weakness, or you can overcome that weakness. You can embrace the weakness and go, okay, I'm not good in the water, I'm gonna practice in the water. I'm not good at running, I'm gonna practice running. And you can overcome that thing. But people ask that sometimes, you know, is it mental or is it physical? The answer is, it's both. Cause like, it doesn't matter how bad you want to do a rope climb. If you've never, if you haven't trained your muscles, you're not gonna be able, you can't, you can't

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  miracle your way up a rope climb. It ain't gonna happen. You have to be able to have the physical strength to do it. And if you don't, it doesn't matter how bad you want it. You know that, uh, you hear Coach Ripatil, the, um, from Starting Strength, like gun to your head, with squats, gun to your head, you can get to a point where you can't do anymore. Now, generally speaking, that's heavier loads, right? Like if you do a true one rep max, and I put a gun to your head, and say, give me one more, you can't do it. Can't do it. Now, if you're doing 20 rep squats, and you got your 20th one, and I put

• 37:41Jocko Willink?

  a gun to your head, you can probably get one more. You can probably get one more. You know, in, in, speaking of SEAL training, like, you know how many pushups you can do? You can do one more. Like, you can always do one more. You can always do one more. It's gonna be sloppy, you might have, you know, what, you can, you're just gonna be, and they'll do that with squats, they'll do that with situps, they'll do that with pushups. Like, how many squats you can do? You can do air, like bodyweight squats? You can do one more. You can do one more. Somebody puts a gun to your head? You can do one more. I mean, it will have to take hours. It would probably take 12 hours before I put a gun to your head, Echo, and said, "Do one more squat," and you failed. Like, you just,

• 38:23Jocko Willink?

  you know, especially if you're like, "Okay, uh, uh," you know, you could pause for three seconds, you could pause for seven seconds. Be like, "All right, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start." And be like, "You better do it right now." And then you go, "Okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm gonna go." And then you do it, and you got one more, because you got just enough rest to get it done. You could probably do that kind of indefinitely. But the heavy squat, like, that's your two, your two rep max, you're only gonna do what you do. So, when it comes to SEAL training, some of it, like a rope climb, you can get to a point where you can't do any more rope climbs, and it doesn't matter how bad you want it, unless you've trained. So you have to be physically ready, but then the mental stuff is like, "Go get in that water again." You don't wanna get in that water again. Hey, they put you in bed, in a warm bed, halfway through Hell Week, they go, "Hey, listen,

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  hey, class, you know, we just got in trouble as instructors, we're being too hard on you guys. The Admiral just gave the order that we need to put you guys to bed for eight hours, and then you're gonna spend the rest of Hell Week dry." And everyone goes, "Oh, wow." They don't think this anymore. Everybody knows the scam now. But you know what? You go, you get in bed, 20 minutes, you fall asleep instantly, dry clothes, you get in bed, you fall asleep instantly, and then boom, they come back in, they're screaming, and you go, "We got wet again." A lot of people quit, right then. Actually, they don't do it on Wednesday. It's like, it's like a Monday, Tuesday, probably a Tuesday thing. It's, it's one of the more, it's one of the bigger barriers. To take a person, take them to maximum discomfort,

• 39:51Jocko Willink?

  then give them maximum comfort, and then rip them back out of it. That's, that's a good way to get people to quit, and they do a really good job of getting people to quit. So it's all these things, it's all these little challenges. There's so many little wickets that you have to get through. You have to be strong, you have to be calm, you have to be lucky because there's a certain amount of luck involved. You know, you run down the beach and you're doing rot landing with the boats on the rocks and you blow your knee out like, hey, it's just, it's terrible. It's very risky to try and get through that training.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Thanks for sharing, brother. I just, I wanted some confirmation on that. You hear a lot and I know Ryan's legit, but the other things you would hear like, I'm gonna ask Jocko himself when I see him. Yeah, but thanks for sharing, man.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  You know what happens too is sometimes in storytelling, people want, I want you to feel what I felt. So, you know, someone will say, dude, they put you in the pool and they drown you. So there's an evolution called lifesaving where you have to rescue a SEAL instructor.

• 41:05Jocko Willink?

  That's supposedly drowning. So the SEAL instructor will be in the middle of the pool and you'll be next in line and the SEAL instructor will look at you and go, help, I'm drowning. Like they'll say it just like that. You jump in the water and you go to try and drag them to the back of the, to the side of the pool. Well, when, as soon as you make contact with them, it's a grappling match and they're gonna try, they're gonna, they're pulling you to the bottom. They're gonna, you know, get inverted on you. They're gonna choke you. They're gonna do a bunch of stuff.

• 41:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, do they actually?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Echo laughing over.

• 41:38Jocko Willink?

  He's having a good time. Do they actually drown you? No, they don't actually drown you. But if I wanted to explain to you what was going on, I'd say, dude, they're drowning you. So it's one of those things where I think people try and tell a story and they want to invoke the emotions from the people that they're talking to and our human language isn't good enough for me to really convey like, bro, they drowned you and you go, Jesus. Well, you know, and that, so those, those kind of rumors can get spread that way. But people do pass out underwater. People like the, the training is definitely very, very difficult and it, and it tests not too many, there's very, very, very few people.

• 42:23Jocko Willink?

  That don't have some kind of challenge going through SEAL training, you know?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's clear. You know, not a lot of people can make it through it, man.

• 42:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  Wow. And again, that being said, if you're a like an average high school athlete, which was me, I was an average high school athlete. I wasn't like I read in your book, you're like, I was naturally athletic and really good at football. I was like, oh, cool. Good for you. It wasn't me.

• 42:52Jocko Willink?

  So if you're an average high school athlete, they can train you up to where you can do what you gotta do to be a, to be a SEAL. But that's where the mental part comes in. Because if that's all it took was being an average high school athlete, everyone would make it, but they don't. Only 20% of people make it, if that.

• 43:16Jocko Willink?

  So eventually, and your latest project has been assembling this idea of the comprehensive man. And, and that's the, that's the subject of your latest book, which is called, uh, The, The Man The Moment Demands. And as I read the book and I put together,

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  what that means is it's what you've been talking about a lot. In different situations, you gotta bring forth the proper characteristics at that time to deal with that particular scenario. And so that's why we have to be not just the man that responds to everything the same, but you gotta be the man that the moment demands. So.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  As you shared about your daughter, you know, that moment.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Doing that stuff all the time. You say, uh, just a little, a little introduction here. While I've outlined 10 characteristics of the comprehensive man in this book, it's vital to remain open to evolving. Remember, once you've allowed someone else to define you, you can never be all you were created to be. Therefore, instead of simply conforming to perceived expectations, the comprehensive man becomes whatever the moment demands. And to me, I talk a lot about having an open mind. And that's exactly what this is. Like, you've got to have an open mind that when your daughter, for instance, reacts a certain way, you may not.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  Be correct to respond the way you were treated or the way you treated your son or the way you treated your wife or the way you treated her three months ago.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Three days ago, three minutes ago.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  Three minutes ago.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  You say this man is not defined by societal demands. In fact, this man typically chooses the opposite path of the one laid out for the masculine male, as you can see here, and you've got a chart here. So on one side of the chart, you've got the masculine male, which is sort of what society has put forth. And then on the other side of the chart, you've got the comprehensive man. So the first example you give is the masculine male suppresses his emotions and hides behind a facade to appear strong. The comprehensive man expresses his emotions freely without fear of being judged. Now, we talked about this on the last podcast.

• 45:47Jocko Willink?

  There are times when you have to suppress your emotions. There are times where it's not appropriate to express your emotions freely. And what I like about this book is you've got to do the appropriate one at the appropriate time. You've got to be the man that the moment demands.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  How often like I share even I think it's Battle Cry, the huddle principle. Remember they were just talking about the comeback. They thought Patrick Mahomes would make a comeback against the Eagles in the Super Bowl. They compared him to Tom Brady when he was down, what is it, 28 to 3 to Atlanta in the Super Bowl. And Trey Flowers is a good friend of mine. He played on that team and he was talking about Tom's leadership in that moment. So as a husband, you know, you've become a comprehensive man. Now you're a verbal processor. You don't no longer repress your emotions. You still have to read the room. Okay. So the huddle principle says if my family is surrounded and we're in a huddle. Like Tom Brady, I can't say, "Hey, look, no team has ever come back from a deficit this

• 46:54Speaker 01

  great. I'm tired. I already got three Super Bowl rings. I'm good. So let's just pack this up. Y'all ready? And we're done." So that's not what I'm saying. So like you're saying, Jocko, you have to be wise and read the room. So you go to the huddle, see where everyone is at. I have to ask my wife, "Hey, what's your capacity right now to hear something heavy that I went through today? Is this a good time for you to receive?" She either say yes or no. So that gives me permission to share. You can't, as a leader, you can't come to the huddle and say, "We're done. We're gonna lose." You know, I'm just telling you, I don't even have confidence no more. You gotta know when. Now, for your children, sometime with my son, it blesses him when

• 47:37Speaker 01

  he sees me move through fear and doubt. I said, "Man, you know, I'm nervous right now if I have to speak at a large facility or whatever it is." Said, "Man, I'm nervous." I purposely tell him that so he can see me move through it. If they constantly see Dad as stoic and robotic and he always gets everything under control, what happens when they feel what he feel but never seen that he feels that? Now they feel I'm a disappointment. I can't live up to Wilson's legacy because my dad never falls. He's never nervous. He's never scared, but I'm feeling these emotions. And that's why it's our duty as men and fathers,

• 48:17Speaker 01

  like, "Look, I'mma show you this side, but this isn't the end of the story. So you're gonna see Dad nervous now, but I'mma move through this and let's look at what happens at the end." And that's what's real important about the huddle principle is like, you have the freedom now, but with that freedom to express yourself comes a responsibility to know when.

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  One of the things I talk about from a leadership perspective, very similar, is Generally speaking, the leader has to look at the mob. Cause by the way, when you're in, when you're in a leadership position, you're in charge of a mob. And you're gonna have a mob mentality in your family. You're gonna have a mob mentality at work. You have mob mentality in your team. And when that mob starts to move emotionally in a direction, you need to make sure that it's the right direction. And generally speaking, as a leader, when it's moving in the wrong direction, you're the only one that's gonna get it moving back in the right direction. So for instance, you come into the huddle and you just had a great play. And it looks like you're gonna score real easy and you're already up on points and everyone's getting cocky and arrogant.

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  You as a leader need to walk in there and go, hey, listen, gents. We, we're doing okay, but this is still a game. We gotta bring our A game right now. So you can, you can go a little bit hard in that direction. If you're down by however many points Tom Brady was down and you get to the huddle and you're like, you can see that everyone's dragging and that no one thinks you can win and you go in there and say, well, this is still a game, but I don't know if we can make it. Exactly like you said, no, you gotta pull that mob in the other direction.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:50Jocko Willink?

  So that's why that's this, this idea of being the man the moment demands. You gotta, you've gotta make sure that you understand what the demands are. You can't dictate the demands to the people. You can't dictate what your nine-year-old daughter needs from you. No, what you need is this? No, doesn't work that way. You gotta, you gotta, as you said, read the room. You gotta have a relationship that you go, oh, I can see this is really bothering her. Oh, somebody called her a name. You can't walk in there, don't worry about kids calling you a name. Sticks and stones will break your bones. Don't worry about it. Nope. Doesn't work like that. She got called a name. It hurt her. That's a, that's her whole world, that classroom.

• 50:34Jocko Willink?

  If you can't understand that and get there and give her the man that the moment demands right there, it's not gonna work.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  That's good, man. Even I would tell parents, and I've been guilty of this. My kid's tired from work or school. I say, well, no, it's not work, but school. I said, wait till you get a real job. Wait till you have to do what I have to do. Well, in that moment, I was the wrong man because I wasn't sympathetic to what they were dealing with. Like you just said, school is their world, school is their world. They feel the same pressure, it just looks different. With my mother, when she had dementia and was living, I had to learn to say, if you fear balloons, I fear balloons. When I work with kids who are autistic, if you're scared, if this knife falling on this table sounds like a bomb, to me, it sounds like a bomb.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  And so I wanna be on your side, I wanna feel what you feel, so I can meet that moment. And that's how I'm able to help kids heal. And with my daughter, her room wasn't dirty because she disrespected dad. It was dirty and disorderly because of being bullied at school, and I miss that, you know? And that's why I wrote this, and the dedication is to every man who is tired of being the wrong man in the moment. You know, we can change that. And so, you hit it right on the head, man. It's real important that we don't put our kids, and we've been saying this in a previous episode, let them be seven, let them be eight, like little Jocko wasn't a SEAL. I mean, what's your son's thing?

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  Four.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Oh, man, oh, man.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  But he's, like your wife said, he's not active duty Navy SEAL. And so how many of us has something not as serious as that? Your son isn't you in high school playing football. You know, he doesn't need to practice eight hours a day, he's seven. And we're robbing these boys of life, and we wonder why, when they get older, they don't wanna work with us. They don't wanna work with dad at his factory or his business because there's no purpose here, there's no joy. All I remember is the hardship.

• 52:42Jocko Willink?

  You really gotta prioritize the relationship that you have. Because it just seems, working with another human being. If you and I have a good relationship, but you'll show up early for me, you'll put out, you know, work hard, and we'll get after it together and we'll accomplish great things. If you and I don't have a relationship, you're barely even showing up for work.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing with your kids. If your kids, if you don't have a good relationship with your kids.

• 53:07Jocko Willink?

  They're not gonna wanna practice. They're not gonna wanna hang out with you. They're not, it's just not gonna work. Hmm. So prioritizing that relationship and it's a relationship is trust, listen, respect, influence and care. That's how I'd. Say that again, what is it? That's how I, those are the components of a relationship from my perspective. Trust. Yes. Listen, respect, influence and care. Love it. So if I don't listen to you and you don't listen to me, do we have a relationship? Hmm, no. No. If I don't trust you and you don't trust me, do we have a relationship? No relationship. If you don't respect me and I don't respect you, do we have a relationship? If I have no influence over you and you have no influence over me, do we have a relationship? Nothing. If I don't care about you and you don't care about me, do we have a relationship? No, sir.

• 53:50Jocko Willink?

  So that's what a relationship is. So in order to build a relationship, here's the hard part. I gotta give those things. That means I gotta listen to you. That means you gotta listen to your nine-year-old daughter. Hmm, that's good. That means you gotta allow your, your ten-year-old son to influence you.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  That means you gotta treat them with, I'm the dad, they better respect me. No, you better treat them with respect. You gotta give them trust. You gotta show them you care about them. Those things are so critical. I always tell the story about my son. My son was probably like ten years old. He's doing jujitsu. We're all do, we're all training jujitsu at my gym. And I see him trying to get an arm lock on, on, on an adult, but a smaller adult, but you know, he's working. And I said, hey, get your hips a little bit more under the, and he looks at me, he's ten years old. I said, get your hips a little more under that shoulder. And he goes, you don't have to do that.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  And that's what, that's when I knew. That's when I knew, I was like, oh, he's not gonna wanna hear this stuff from me. You know, like, okay, I got it. In this book I wrote, kid's book, the kid's book, there's an uncle in the book that comes and mentors the kid. And one of the reasons why I didn't make it the dad is there's two reasons. Number one, I know a lot of kids that don't have dads. I didn't want them to think, oh, well, this will never be me. But also, I know kids don't listen to their dads in a direct manner. They do it indirectly. Your, your, your son is watching you. Your son is gonna imitate you. Your son is.

• 55:25Jocko Willink?

  He's, he's listening at a depth of his soul that he doesn't even recognize. The good and the bad, it's there. So you gotta pay attention to those things.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  You know, um, we were at Home Depot just before I came out here and a long time friend of mine sees me and we're talking. He knows my son because our kids went to the same school together. So he said, hey Jay, how you doing? So Jason's driving now, rolls the window down and they start talking. He's like, you don't really know who your dad is right now. You're really too close to see him. And then I looked down like, wow, that hit me because I, I told my wife when we, when she was pregnant with Jason, I said, he's going to refer to me. My, uh, sobriquet or nickname will be and because my dad can do this and this and this, you know? And when he gets to the age of, when he's trying to learn independency, I'm like, don't confuse it with being isolated.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  But I had to send men around him like you did. That was an excellent move. I have Chris, who's my main assistant in the cave. He's the big brother to Jason. My spiritual brother, Ron Lee, he is Jason's uncle. I got brother in laws because I know as long as we have the same principles, I don't care how it's conveyed. And that was such, that was so wise because one of the things that breaks my heart in the cave, mothers to say, well, he's feeling this way because his dad isn't there. And so I'm glad you put the uncle because again, like I, um, didn't take advantage of my stepfather when he was there.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  I want when kids see that movie, they won't miss the other men in their lives that could be father figures. He may never be dad, you know, no one should replace dad and can really. But there are other men that can help you get there on that journey, man. And so that's wise. And a lot of times as fathers, we have to put our ego and pride aside and say, hey, I want what's best for my son.

• 57:25Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah. Part of it is your kids.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  Are programmed to to break contact with their parents so they can leave the nest. They gotta do it.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 57:38Jocko Willink?

  If they just continually just like uh live off of you like a parasite. They know that they have to break away and for them to psychologically do they gotta create some kind of boundaries. They know they got to.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  And it hurts.

• 57:51Jocko Willink?

  And it hurts.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  That's what we have to tell. I had to tell so many uh be uh conflict resolution sessions with fathers and sons. I tell the dad, you're not conveying the real emotion. And so in the book, The Man in Moment Demands, I have the earthquake of emotions. The surface emotion is anger. We quick to go there. That damages everything we love at the surface, but if we could address the emotions at the hypo center. Where they begin. So I say, you know, if my friend is Steve, I say, you're not angry, you're hurt. You're not angry, you're scared. You're not angry, you're saddened. Express those and when fathers learn to be transparent, like I'm still gonna be dad, but I'm gonna let them know. Your action hurt me. My son has told me.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  He says, it wasn't the yelling, it wasn't the discipline, it was the fact that I knew I had hurt you. That make me wanna change. And so when a father can allow that side to be seen. It's it's a game changer for it. It worked for me and my son and I love um also. Parents say, well, how do you know when it's too much like, you know, parents' greatest fear is. Giving their children too much attention or too many resources. And they kinda let their kids fend on fend to life themselves or if their kid doesn't wanna speak to them. Now the parent is in their feelings like, well, you don't wanna talk, I ain't gotta talk to you either. The worst thing you can do as a parent is to let your child go silent, just let them be.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  And so often tell parents, well, what can you live with? And so what do you mean? Well, could you live with yourself uh humbling yourself? Putting your ego aside, putting this parent title aside. And going in and doing whatever it takes to make the connection or would you rather receive a phone call that they overdosed? And always it's like, I wanna put the work in. And so I give them example of my son, he's like you said, my therapist told me, he's like, don't worry, they'll come back. This is, this is nature. They have to do this. So little Jay, he's a teenager. He wants to be in his room by himself. I'm like, what's wrong? Why you responding that way? He's like, nothing dad, I'm just chilling. Or how about dad?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  I had a bad day too, you know, and we missed that as parents. So now instead of being intrusive, like just blatantly like, hey, don't cut the light off. Don't, don't close the door. This, I say, son, how you doing? Hey dad, can I come in? Sure, got permission. Hey, um, do you mind if I, I can do my work in here with you? Can I just lay down here? And if he gives me permission, now I'm just, the presence is what he's feeling. Kids don't really care about perfection. They wanna know that you're there. And without saying a word, my presence in that room allows me to maintain, like you said, the relationship. I'm respecting you, but at the same time, I wanna let you know that you mean everything to me.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  That's the last part, right? It's care.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:49Jocko Willink?

  If I care about you, I'm just sitting here and I don't, that's just like being in the same room with you is good to go.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  That's it. You ain't gonna say anything to me. I could stay here on my iPad and work or read a book. But as long as I'm here, you know, and as a father, you know, you, you don't want your son not to admire you or call you, hey dad, you know, but we have to let them grow. And you have to remember too, that, man, my, my mother, I didn't, never talked to my mom like that, you know, or my dad. And I never thought anything was wrong. We forget that we too were teenagers. Sometimes we just want our own space. It doesn't mean anything is wrong. I just had a long day, just like you, dad and mom. And so when we give our sons and our daughters that space and, and that we're connected, like you're saying that your world is important to me just as mine.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Parenting becomes not so much of as a battle. That's when you get that relationship. That's when the challenge is wow. You leave the room like he respected me. He asked, could he come in here? Even though you pay all the bills. But the fact that you asked is teaching him something about manhood and being respected. So that's good, man. I need to write down that acronym.

• 1:02:03Jocko Willink?

  I'll text it to you.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  And is that in that book there?

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  It's actually in this book here called Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  I need all of that while I leave here, man.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna be getting a package of books at the cave for sure.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:02:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, okay. We made it through one of these things in this chart. Next one exudes the male, the masculine male exudes only masculine characteristics. The comprehensive man exudes both masculine and unquote unmasculine characteristics. So this is again, this is the thing we talked about in the last podcast. It's like you gotta, you gotta have both sides. If you're just one side, you're, you're, you're not functional or you're not functioning at optimum rate.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I tell the teenagers who like sports, especially like basketball. What if you only could go to the right dribble to your right? You're exposed, okay? So you want a comprehensive game. MMA exposed, just traditional martial arts. You can't just know one style anymore. It's the same thing with manhood. You wanna know as much as you can so you can meet the moment of a fight, an argument, or intimate, intimate moment with your wife. Can you really be locked in? You know, does it have to be all physical? Or can you speak to the emotions of your wife? You know, and talk to the little girl in her that's still broken and needs to be healing. And that's, that's a challenge for a lot of us because we're taught sexist performance as well. Like how long can you go? What can you do?

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Instead of no, I'm just gonna be present. You know, I shared in the book, Nicole had a, an incision vertically. And she had a very self-conscious about it. And one day, because I was just open, God says, I need you to kiss that scar from the top to the bottom. And I did that in foreplay and she just wept because it liberated her because that was what she needed because my wife loves me and she says literally she believes God created her. One of her main reasons being here is to help me fulfill his purpose through my life. And so I was emotionally available for her where it wasn't about the sex anymore.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  It was about making sure I met the moment in that bedroom to heal her. And when she cried, it was just a beautiful thing. And that's why the writer body is like, but that came from the work, like you're saying with the seals, you know, how many times you try to do the rope climb if you're not trained, if you haven't exercised those muscles, it's not gonna happen. So even if you read all of our books, if these men are out training in real time where it matters the most practicing, when it matters the most in those moments, you're gonna blow it. And so that's really important is like, I'm looking at your books, man, and I'm like, it should be some bad brothers out here.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  But there's a difference between, you know, reading it and then applying it, man. So.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like jujitsu. Man, you could have Hicks and Gracie himself come and teach you a course and you could read his books and he could show you the videos. And the first time you get on the mat, you're gonna get worked. Cause you gotta do the thing.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're talking about.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Tenth time when it doesn't matter. Yeah.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  Uh, going on here, the masculine male feels threatened when another man is more successful. The comprehensive man is not threatened by another man's success, but inspired by it. Seems so common sense. And yet look at what drives our world right now. The masculine male views women as subservient and sex objects. The comprehensive man respects women and values their superior qualities. The masculine male feels fear, but will do anything to prevent anyone from knowing he's scared. The comprehensive man feels fear, but openly admits it and thereby makes wise life decisions. It's a real liberator to be able to say, oh yeah, I'm nervous right now. I'm scared about this thing. I know I

• 1:06:07Jocko Willink?

  went through that with like new guys and going into combat and you could see him, bro. They're scared.

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  Cause you might die.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, is it?

• 1:06:17Jocko Willink?

  And you don't want to let your friends down and you don't want to see your friends get wounded or killed. And you've never done it before. And so you see, you know, a guy goes to the bathroom four times in 20 minutes. You're like, oh, he's scared. His stomach is turning. And so you go say, hey, man. I just saw you go to the bathroom four times in 20 minutes. You scared? No, I'm not scared. Hey, bro. You're scared. It's all good. I'm scared too. We're going to be all right. That's us getting focused right now. And as soon as they they recognize that it's like, oh, okay. Okay.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Liberated. I mean, just me hearing you say it, you know, as much as I admire you, you know, it's like it's liberating, you know? And if your team, that's what Joe speaks highly of, you know, your leadership and being the example, you know, a lot of these guys just talking and it's not real life. And so to to actually see it, someone you respect and he's still human is like you you give them the permission to be human. It's like, okay, but I'm not going to succumb to this. So that's the other side.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We're gonna get our gear on and we're gonna go.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  There you go. That's good, man.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the masculine male is a slave to his thoughts and emotions. The comprehensive man masters his emotions before his thoughts become toxic.

• 1:07:34Jocko Willink?

  And going on in the pages that follow, we will explore the 10 characteristics of the comprehensive man covering each vital area of a man's life. I like to think of these characteristics as part of three general themes. The dynamic characteristics call you to take action. The deeper characteristics inspire you to look within and the devotion characteristics focus on your closest relationships.

• 1:07:57Jocko Willink?

  And we're going to jump into some of these. You got the dynamic characteristics are you've mentioned some of these already. The fighter, the provider, the leader. Then you get the deeper characteristics, the lover, the nurturer, the gentleman, the friend. And then finally, the devotion characteristics, the husband, the father, the son. And take a look at some of these things here. And I feel like you and I could talk for like

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Oh, easy.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Weeks.

• 1:08:22Jocko Willink?

  But that's why, hey, get the book because you go into so much detail and It provides different perspectives and different angles of the issue. So for me, that's how you gain understanding of things. You know, you want to learn an arm lock? Cool. Learn the arm lock from the mount, learn the arm lock from the cross side, learn the arm lock from the guard, learn the arm lock from the back. Each one of those perspectives, you'll understand the arm lock better and every one of your arm locks will become better than it was before. And that's what I feel like the book does is gives different perspectives on these different characteristics. The first one you talk about here, the fighter.

• 1:09:04Jocko Willink?

  The fighter discerns when to engage and when to walk away. He masters his ego and emotions to ensure he stays in an advantageous position. Boy, is that smart.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That was my typically, we would put quotes at the beginning of each chapter. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, how about putting the definitions for each characteristic at the beginning? And at the end of the book, it becomes a man's creed when he says them all together. Yeah, so.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting. Uh, he masters his ego and emotions to ensure he stays in an advantageous position. So you got this, you mentioned it earlier. I didn't cover it. You can get the book. So you, so I can't, I'm not going to read the whole book. But you got this earthquake of emotions and what you talk about here is anger, right? Anger is kind of the one that bubbles over the surface for the Hawaiians here. This is like the volcano, the magma, the magma coming out.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Lava.

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Lava. Underneath, what's, what's leading to the anger? The anger is just what you see, but underneath that is distrust, lust, anxiety. It fear loneliness and security. And I kind of think that if you put ego underneath all those, like, what do we fear, fearing? We're fearing that we're going to look bad. Why do we distrust? Cause I don't want to get, I don't want to be the guy that, that, that looks like I'm weak over here. Lust, what are you trying to prove? How much of that is just ego trying to prove something? Loneliness, I don't want to be alone. My ego doesn't want to be alone. Insecurity, clearly ego. So, so many of these things and, and I know, um,

• 1:10:46Jocko Willink?

  when it comes to like actually getting in fights with people.

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  If you take away alcohol and ego, there'd be peace.

• 1:11:00Jocko Willink?

  Egos leads to so much.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  It sure does.

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  I heard you talking on the, on the Joe Rogan podcast about an incident where there was a road rage incident and both the guys had concealed carry and they killed each other.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  It was in Michigan.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  In front of their families.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were with their families and not one could disengage. They pull over, arguing, start shooting, kills each other. And I often ask men, I say, look, imagine yourself lying in your own blood while looking up at your family crying and you taking your last breath. Ask yourself, is it worth it or was it worth it? And it's not. I had to learn many times like, hey, uh, my son is in the car. Uh, this is one I'm not gonna do. It's not worth it. At the end of the day, it's, it's just not. I tell a story of a bus driver who nearly runs me and Nicole, my wife, off the road.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  And I pull up to the side, of course, to see, you know, what's going on, you know? And I see his body language, you know, you know, basically pointing at me and I, I know he's using profanity, so I ignore it, keep going. Point to the, about your, the ego. We going to the same shopping mall. He follows us, parks the smart bus and walks aggressively over to my wife and I. I'm armed and I know once you cross three feet in my radius, it's a threat to me. Like I have to, it's, I'm not fighting you, there's no jujitsu, I'm killing you.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  By the way, pause, Echo, you're about to hear just the very legit activities going on. Listen to this line, cause this is great, the book, go ahead.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so he comes over to me and I tell him, I tell him, stop right there. I said, cause once you cross this, it's a problem. And he didn't know I was armed, but I was, my wife is with me and I was gonna, he would've died that day because I'm not grappling with you and my wife is here. Okay? And I'm armed. So anyway, what's interesting to your point, Jocko, about the ego. I had to make sure that was in check. Because now I wanted to act like a human being. Because once I have to go to animal mode or lion mode, there is no more conversation. And this wasn't that type of aggression. For you to stop, and I tell you to stop, let me know where I was in this situation.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  And so we started communicating and I, I allowed a room for us to be men and humans and we were able to work through this. And shook hands and walked away. And the main thing was knowing that I'm still a man because I didn't try to just completely punk this man out. Because the old me would have had, it had to be unequivocally, Jason was the dog in this situation. But I, as long as Nicole was protected, I said, you know what? Now it's time for me to practice what I teach. And in that moment, as long as I'm in control, no one's harmed, no one's in danger, let's communicate.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  One of my boxing coaches will always say if once, if we always have to go to fighting, we're no different from the animals. If we can't reason or talk through conflict, you know, when the last time you seen a movie with two, I guess gangsters or not gangsters, say two men who were in conflict, resolve it verbally. And so again, it goes back to your point, which I love again, how you put the uncle in your book. We need examples of it for our sons to see. And so I was, I was, in that moment, I didn't know what was gonna happen. This guy was a big fella walking towards me, but to be able to end there with peace was worth it. No one injured and again, people miss, yeah, you, you armed now, but if you kill someone,

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  you got money to pay. You see, it's a lot more. You're going to jail instantly.

• 1:14:56Jocko Willink?

  Going to jail instantly, yup. That's like when you take the concealed carry course. Yeah, out here in California. It's, what is it, a two day course, Echo Charles?

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, two, uh, yeah.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  It's three. So it's probably, I don't know, 20 hours or 21 hours, let's say?

• 1:15:11Jocko Willink?

  Eighteen of those hours are telling you all the trouble that you're gonna get in if you, if you use your weapon. Like, they're trying to let you know what's up. I've been looking for the line in the book, cuz you-

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  What you actually said to that guy is like, you're entering my three-foot arc zone of safety. And if you proceed further, it will result in-

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, yeah, I did. It was, it was very Robocop.

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  It was like, it was like full Robocop activities, and I was like-

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  That's kinda like one of those things where, you know, when someone is just very cool, calm, and collective, and you go, oh, this guy knows. My, my friend, Hoiler Gracie, he was surfing. He's Hoiler Gracie.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:15:50Jocko Willink?

  And some guy started talking smack to him, you know, out in the water. And Hoiler said, hey, man, I surf for fun. I fight for a living. If you wanna go to the beach, let me know. The guy's like, I think I'm good.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Wow. Well, yeah, that's in the fighter chapter. That's, uh, it's actually, I think that's in the gentleman's chapter. After I talk about the alpha, alpha male.

• 1:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is in the gentleman's chap-

• 1:16:14Jocko Willink?

  We'll find it, we'll find it, we'll get there.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Jocko Willink?

  Next section. Next characteristic, the provider. The provider ensures the provision of essential resources, guidance, and support for his family, friends, community, and himself. So that's what we're doing.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  We missed the himself, though. A lot of us do as men. We don't provide for ourselves. And that's what makes it, uh, living miserable when somebody, everyone is living off the fruit of our labor. And we don't take care of ourselves. And what's deep, how many times have you heard wives encourage husbands to go on vacations or trips with their boys, and we don't? You know, we think that we gotta worry about terrorists breaking in the house. We gotta hold down the fort. You know, it's like, my wife, they have girls' trips. She's literally like, look, I plan it. Don't worry about anything. Get three of your friends. Get out of here. And a recent study said that for our mental health, men need at least two hang nights a week. Because we don't do it.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  We're stuck in performance.

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  Must return to jujitsu. Yeah, it's true. It's part of it. Hundred percent.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, that's the camaraderie that we talked about earlier. It's very important, yeah, but even outside of jujitsu, you still need that time.

• 1:17:27Jocko Willink?

  The crazy thing is, especially if you train with that coach, Charles, you're gonna get hang time. This guy, this guy over here. You get, hey, look, you get a solid hour of training. You get a solid hour. He's like a one to one ratio. He's wanting to tell you about all kinds of things going on, you know? But I'm here for you, bro. I'm here for each other. I'm here for that. That's part of our thing.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  But that's what I loved about the jujitsu community was different from a lot of the RSI I trained in. The camaraderie was just, yeah.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  The intimacy of jujitsu. Like, I can say this.

• 1:17:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, you know, like just bro hug people? I did not do that until jujitsu. It wasn't part of my thing. It was like, no, like, hey, dude, you keep your distance. It was kind of like, hey, you're entering my arc of, you know, safety if you get in here. But once you change jujitsu.

• 1:18:18Jocko Willink?

  Three foot zone. You're in my three foot zone. Do not proceed.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  That's real, though.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of men like that, like that. To this day.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  Next one. And by the way, you have so much, each one of these is a chapter. I'm kind of skimming through it here. Next one's the leader. The leader guides and inspires others. He knows when to speak and when to listen.

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Leading by example, not intimidation. One of the notes that you made in this section was, and I think this is an important thing to talk about. You can't save everyone.

• 1:19:02Jocko Willink?

  And this is, this is a heavy burden, especially, look, so the first book I wrote is called Extreme Ownership. And that is a very heavy burden to bear, right? When you're in a leadership position. You own everything. And so some people, they'll interpret that as, you know, Echo Charles works for me. I'm responsible for his actions. I take ownership of everything he does. Totally true. So what do you do when Echo is not showing up to work? He's showing up to work late. He's not accomplishing his job. Well, you take ownership of that. Hey, Echo, did I make this clear to you? Hey, Echo, do you need more training? Hey, Echo, is everything going on okay at home? Like, is there anything else you need from me? Do you need more resources so you can get the job?

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  All those things. But eventually, you can have someone that does not belong in that position. You can have someone that you for all, you can't save them. And then the priority of the team takes precedence over the priority of one individual. Because now I'm dedicating all my time and effort and focus on Echo and I'm not paying attention to the rest of the team. And by the way, he's letting the whole team down. And now we're not getting the jobs that we were trying to get. You know, we were putting bids in on jobs, but it was costing us a little bit more. We were performing late. They get bad Yelp review because Echo didn't. See what I'm saying? So you can't save everyone. Same thing, you know, when you're interacting with other people.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  And I know in your position, you know, you've got story upon story of people that couldn't save.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like especially with the students that come and you don't reach them all. And I would stay up late and overextending myself going over the house and trying to help the parent resolve an issue with their son. And I learned, I was reading the scriptures when Yeshua or Jesus was, Mary poured the oil on his head and the disciples were upset because they could have sold it. It was expensive to feed those in need. And Yeshua clearly, he said that the poor will always be with you, but I will not. So Mary was there in the moment. She knew what she was doing. But the disciples weren't. They were thinking about the cost. What I learned and took from

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  that teaching as well is that there will always be boys in need. There will be. But am I in the moment? Am I teaching to those he wants me to teach in that moment? Because some will leave, just like if I'm a shepherd. I will leave the ninety-nine to go after the one, but I can't neglect the ninety-nine. And as a youth worker, or a minister, or a leader, and you really care and you're working with the kids, sometimes you'll think it's your fault that they made that mistake. That liberated me, like, no, I gave you everything you needed. You made that mistake, but I'll still be here for you. And so now I can go to bed when I need to go to bed. I just tell them, I'mma teach you, I'mma give you everything you want.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  I actually do an analogy where I take an empty glass and I grab a pitcher of water for every new group that starts. I say, "This glass represents you. This pitcher and its contents, the pitcher represents me and the contents, this water represents the love, the discipline, the sacrifice, my commitment, and other qualities that I'mma pour into you." So then I start filling the cup up all the way to the brim, right when it's about to spill over. And I put the pitcher down and I ask the class, "What has to happen now for me to pour more water into this glass?" And they'll look, they'll say, "Well, we have to drink it." I say, "Exactly. What I used to do, I would keep pouring, and now all of my effort is wasted.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  Until you drink everything that I give you in here, I can't pour anymore. And if you leave with this full cup, that's on you. You can always come back, but I don't worry anymore. I pray for you, but there's another boy that just came in as you walked out." That's the importance of me being in the moment, because there will always be someone in need. I understand that now. It's not my job to save everyone, but save the ones that come and the those that I can. I can lose myself and my family in the process of going after who he doesn't want me to go after.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a perfect metaphor, and it's the same thing. You know, when I was just talking about Echo, I'm pouring it, pouring water into Echo, give you more training, you know, sit down with you, give you counseling, mentor you. But eventually, if you're not drinking that water, I can't, I can't help you.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  No, you can't. Echo, well, I know not Echo, but the person that we're trying to.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  You know, he would cause more harm to the whole mission, you know, and so unfortunately you have to learn to allow people to leave, you know, and develop and trust that what you've poured into them will come, you know, full circle.

• 1:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Getting into part two here, the deeper characteristics. And this one starts off with the lover. Echo Charles.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Just checking, does it make it sure you're with me?

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  The lover knows that love is demonstrated through action. Devotion to Yah, loving his neighbors and maintaining his own well being. And this was to, to highlight one section of this. You, you talk about, uh, or on the last podcast, you mentioned that you don't talk about self-love, you talk about maintenance, which is, you know, a more approved.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Term we can use as men.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  Improved manly term we got going on there. So you talk about that in here.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:45Jocko Willink?

  Preserve energy and time. Declining allows you to channel your resources into activities that truly matter. Gain respect for boundaries. Saying no establishes healthy boundaries and garners respect from others. So there's a movie right now. I haven't seen it yet.

• 1:25:04Jocko Willink?

  It's about Elvis Presley. Have you, you seen it? It's called Elvis. And my wife watched it, but she said it was heartbreaking. Because Elvis was Elvis.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  And everyone's just taken from Elvis. They just took from him, took from him, and took from him, and took from him. And, you know, he, they fed him the drugs that he needed to keep him going. They gave him the, the bad food. They kept him, you know, sedated. They got him up on stage. They pushed him out on stage. They took, they took, they took, they took. And it was just a terrible story. And that, that, that's, you know, it's kind of like what you're talking, I mean, you could lose your family trying to help kids, trying to help other people. You have to set some boundaries. Um, so.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  I didn't know that about him.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Seems like a common thing for celebrities, singers, and entertainers. Michael Jackson was similar.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's unfortunate, man. Yeah, I didn't know that.

• 1:26:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, I think especially, you know, these, these, uh, when you're a young artist, and you get an opportunity, and you sign that contract, especially in the old days, you know, these people would sign contracts and they'd give away everything. And they would get nothing in return. Well, they think they'd be getting something in return, but they would get totally worked over.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  They would get the fame, but not the fortune.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Enhance well-being, avoiding situations that generate stress or discomfort nurtures your mental and emotional well-being. Your choice not to attend matters because your decision directly impacts your own experience.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people I was talking to, um, how do you turn it down? Like, when you get the money, you get the success, and people invite you to come to an event, you know, and they try to make you feel guilty for not attending? I'm like, well, if your event isn't a success because I'm not there, maybe you don't need to have the event. You know, I'm serious. It's like, I'm tired, I need to be with my family, I need to recover, and I don't see my name on the flyer. You know, so I have no guilt anymore telling people I can't go. You know, and then people who are demanding like, well, I need an answer now. Well, my wife will tell you that's gonna be no. Because if you're rushing me, it's best to say no, because I say yes, I'mma commit to it.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  I say, oh, no, you need to answer now? Oh, it's no. Because I've had time to really process it and make sure it's a good decision for me, you know, and it's like, I'm over it, man. It's like you're not pressing me into anything anymore, you know, everyone. I had a saying, uh, um, don't get caught up in everyone's calling because you could miss your calling from him, you know, and it's like, when you're, when you're popular, you seem like you have the antidote to so much, you're good. It's like a natural resource until they wear you out. Then they go on to the next and to the next. I'm okay, man, you know, I, I work my way out, you know, from my home. I don't need the accolades from people and, uh, none of that. It, it, it means it's, it's, it's encouraging.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  But I know accolades are like the breeze. It's gonna go. It's just, you know, it's just, it, it is, uh.

• 1:28:32Jocko Willink?

  All glory is fleeting.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  It is, it is, but when you, your family who really love you and for who you really are, um, I, I work from that space, you know, like a woman couldn't really, there's not one woman who could flirt with me and compliment me more than my wife has. So it means, it literally is like, I see you coming from a mile away. I already heard this. I already felt this. My kids tell me how great you are, dad. Get me a plaque, greatest dad. It's in my office. Like, that hangs up none of my awards. That's in my office to keep me locked in. And that's what matters, man. When we're old men, I tell all these men, like, building all these buildings for corporations.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  When we're sitting on our front porch, seventy, eighty years old.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Those buildings are gonna forget us, those people gonna forget us. Only thing will be on our hearts and minds is, is my wife next to me and where are the kids?

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Nothing else matters, man. It, it just doesn't, it's vain attempts for affirmation that many men seek because they didn't get it. Then when they get it, now they're stuck in a performance cycle and their lives are misery. And it's, it's just not worth it, just pull back, like you say, reset. We see the promise, reset, this isn't the life, this isn't the path. Acknowledge what's going on for real, you know, what you didn't get and let's do something about it. And that's why, you know, your books on leadership is important because we think we know how to lead, but we don't. You know, we, it's a lot of it is, is, is an intimidation, it is do what I say.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, real leadership is very counterintuitive, you know? It's, your instinct is, well, if I want my kid to do something, I just bark orders at them and they better do it. It's like, nope, that's not the way it works. It's not the way it works with your kids, not the way it works with your, with your team, with work.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Was the, uh, Ryan, Ryan, the guy Ryan made, I told you, was psychologist for the SEALs. He told me, and I never forgot this, cause Shalom has like high anxiety when we, my cow poo from the last episode. He has high anxiety in the car, on car rides, you know? And he said, when he would train dogs, the, the, the thing they would teach is never let the stress go down the leash.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I said, hmm, and so it made me ponder like, does Shalom feel any anxiety from in our home? You know, when, and when I'm in the car? Am I anxious now because he's going crazy or am I staying still? So now, just recently, I stayed calm, I made him stay in his seat. So everything's cool and it, it worked and I know this because of what I do. But when you have a dog going crazy in your car, you lose it for that moment, but then like, wait a minute. I'm the leader here, I gotta set the tone. And as men, we wanna be respected and treated as leaders. But then we miss the moment when it requires for us to really lead. We start looking at what everyone else isn't doing, instead of getting in the mirror and say,

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  like you said, well, what am I doing? Am I giving you this? Are you, do you have the right tools for this? As a father, am I patient? Did I really ask him? Did I offend him? Am I really present, son? Is there anything else dad could be doing more of that would make your life better? Those are things leaders do. And it requires for you to sit there, like you say, and listen. And don't judge your children like, what do you need? Dad, I would love for you to be more intentional. Put the phone down when you come home. I advise men, if you're feeling a disconnection, leave the phones at home and go for a walk.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  And they always come back like, wow, my relationship with my daughter or son is completely different now. Because in that moment, if you're Jocko, everyone knows you, you're literally telling your children, I stopped this world for you. And we're gonna walk and it's slow. We're not getting around this block anytime soon. And that means the world to the children, man. Yeah, and to the staff and to Echo when he's out here.

• 1:32:51Jocko Willink?

  Prioritize self-maintenance, not now allows you to prioritize your needs, enabling you to recharge and show up more fully later in areas you select, including those connected to your family, job, and more. Promote authenticity. Embracing refusal fosters authenticity as you live in alignment with your purpose. Open opportunities. Saying no to the wrong opportunities creates space for the right ones. Strengthen confidence. Asserting your choices boosts your confidence and reaffirms your independence from the desires and urgencies of others.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What's that sign they hang up? Like, your lack of planning doesn't create, doesn't mean my emergency.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that, yeah.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what it is.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  The next one, the nurturer. The nurturer cultivates growth and development, caring for individuals and environments within their influence and beyond. How's this play a role?

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Major, especially, I use myself as an example. As far as nurturing with the boys that I work with, that also entails me nurturing their parents. Everyone that's involved in that child's life. I can't tell you how many mothers have cried, literally in my arms, for giving them the opportunity to just be mom. Because now I say, look, if the father's inactive in his life, let us be that. Because he needs you to be mom. He needs the nurturing side. And that's where the disconnect comes with so many single mothers. It's because they have to now become part of dad. The son doesn't need that from mom. Doesn't, I can't say, in no situations he does need it.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  But he desires the nurturing and the love of mom. Majority of fights happen not because kids talked about our dads. He said something about mom, right? Why? Not because mom was a disciplinarian. It's because mom was loving, caring, always gave me second and third chances. The other guy, that was dad, you know? And so deliberate them to nurture mom and then also nurture dad along through the process. To bringing, I've had so many beautiful moments where sons and fathers can reconcile. Literally fathers in different states. Because of the popularity of the Cave of Adelum and what I do there come. Then I slowly reel them in and nurture them.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  I understand, empathetic, what's your story? I never met a father who wasn't actively in his son's life or daughter's life that didn't love him. There was always a story. So to be a great coach, you gotta be a great nurturer. The greatest coaches coach beyond the physical aspect of what you're doing. You get into their head, you get into their lives. Like Green Bay's legendary coach Vince Lombardi. It was more than football. It was life. And that's what's missing from coaching and a part in there, I talk about comprehensive coaching.

• 1:35:50Jocko Willink?

  I got it right here, highlighted.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  You gotta do more, especially now because a lot of the athletes, their entire lives are visible now. And so now you're not only dealing with their parents and what they've been through. You're dealing with the social media aspect and the NIL and everything else. Like, how can you help this kid process these things? And lastly, when I'm speaking, was at Damian Lillard's camp, Formula Zero, which was really cool. And to hear these young boys, he had the top 40 recruits in the country. And to hear them express this pressure of having to put on or put up for mom. Basically make to the NBA so the family be taken care of.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  I help them by nurturing them through that moment like, look, I understand the pressure, but I need you to be, again to our point in the previous podcast, I need you to be sixteen year old Tommy, sixteen, uh seventeen year old Tommy, thirteen year old Tommy. You're not supposed to provide for them, they're supposed to provide for you. And I asked him, I said, do you think you were created to play basketball? And they look at me, they were like, um, no, no one's ever asked me that. So where is this pressure coming from? You can't do this forever. You're created to do more than that. That comes from a nurturing spirit, to be present and caring.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean I'm coddling them or won't push them, that's nurturing as well. I love you so much that I'm gonna sacrifice my body, which is, I'm in great pain, to make sure you get this lesson today. I have had my kids, they can't, I can't hit my, my, my students. Y'all can hit me. Because I need you to feel what it feels like to be powerful, to get past your fears. It's scripture says, faithful are the wounds of a friend. So I'm your friend, I love you. You, I'll take yours though, for you. That's nurturing as well. And so when we get past the, that nurturing is exclusive to women, and really look at what it is, it's a great quality that makes us great leaders.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  And if more leaders, world leaders especially, led even from the principles of your book, this world would be better. If leaders could show some empathy and says, you know what? I'm not gonna bomb that city. I need to meet with the leader again, because there's so many people's lives at risk because of this decision, it's rooted in wanting to make sure I'm seen a certain way, that I'm not taking advantage of. So again, nurturing looks different for men, and that's why I say this world is in dire need of a nurturing love from a man, because it's different from a woman. It's strong, but yet it's gentle, it's safe. There's peace there. Um, and that's why I, I really stress the point of men being nurturers,

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  and not being milk sop, okay? But being a nurturer.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  That's an interesting thing that I would try and explain to young leaders in the military.

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  So when you join the military in a leadership role, they tell you, take care of your people, take care of your people, take care of your people, take care of your people, take care of your people. It's beat into your head. But people misconstrue what that means. And it's the same, you know, thing that you're talking about. Taking care of your people doesn't mean coddling them. It doesn't mean, what you call it, a milk, what you call it?

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  Milk soap.

• 1:39:22Jocko Willink?

  Milk soap.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  It's like you soak bread in the middle and it's just like.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  That is not good. That is not taking care of your people.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 1:39:30Jocko Willink?

  Taking care of your people is pushing them. It is making sure that they have discipline. It is making sure that they're well trained. It is make sure that they are not in their comfort zone. That is

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  a form, if not the form of nurturing.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  It's also what you did for the young man who was scared, kept using the restroom.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  You, you, you went where he was, says, look, we all scared right now. That's nurturing, you helping to develop him to get past that moment.

• 1:40:00Jocko Willink?

  And that's what's wild, you know, as I was thinking about your, uh, the idea of scaling the cave.

• 1:40:08Jocko Willink?

  Trying to get other people to understand how to read a young kid that's going through. Cause I, so I work with leaders and I go to work with a construction company. I go to work with a finance company. I go to work with an insurance company. I go to work with a manufacturing company. The leaders, the questions that I'm going to get asked, they all have the same roots. So I'm assuming that in your role, when you see a kid start to cry, you're like, oh, it's gonna be one of these three things. You're not, you're not being jerk, you're not, not listening to them, but you're like, okay, this kid's got, oh, he's mentioned that, it's gonna go here. And you learn how to interact with people in a certain way.

• 1:40:52Jocko Willink?

  You can pull the string, you can get to the root of the problem and you have a solution there. Like you tell me a problem, you've got a problem with one of your employees or you've got a problem with your boss. I can start pulling the thread and it's almost like, you remember those choose your own adventure books? There was books, it was like you, if you want to go left, go to page 20. If you want to go right, go to page 19.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:12Jocko Willink?

  So I feel like when I'm talking to someone that's in a leadership position, I'm basically just, just pulling the thread and I'm gonna, is it left or right? Oh, it's right. Okay. You have, you have an employee that has a bad attitude. Is he, how long has he been with you? A year. Okay, cool. So you don't know him that well, but how, what's your relationship like? Do you know him well or not really? Not really. Okay. So you can spend more. And I can kind of just narrow it down and, and eventually you go, hey, you know, what you need to do is build a relationship with that person. Give them some more responsibilities so they feel like they're more valuable. And they go, okay, I'll give that a try and it works.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  So I'm sure that you have that as well.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  With these kids. That's going to be a hard thing to scale, but it, but it, I do believe that it is scalable. I do believe that you can train people where they go, where they can identify problems and they can move through and they'll be able to help these kids out.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. And that's, that's one of the reasons I wrote this book as well. Because that's, that would be the trainer trainer manual as well. So if you can navigate through all 10 of those, you understand pretty much all that a young boy is going to deal with.

• 1:42:18Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta go do it.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  You gotta do it. Because see, but that's my, I have, I have things in place where I can test teachers.

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  With kids and see how you respond. And I need a kid, I, uh, David, I gave you a hundred and $50 to not listen to this instructor today. I want to see how he responds.

• 1:42:40Jocko Willink?

  We do a lot of that too. We, we do a lot of role playing.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:42:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I, I, trust me, I can be the most combative employee you've ever met. You're like, and I'm good. You know, like you've got all your little leadership solutions. I got answers for all those that are going to make things worse.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  That's excellent.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, yeah. So that, you know, you mentioned this, this, the five Cs of comprehensive coaching, just great stuff. Constructive approach, character development, cognitive performance, compassionate communications, Christ centered. These are just solid things that I think will really help people out as they try and move through this.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Moving to the next one, the gentleman. The gentleman exudes respect for others and himself through deliberate and appropriate etiquette without compromising his values. And this idea of etiquette goes back to something we talked about on the last podcast, which is protocols. Like there is a protocol.

• 1:43:42Jocko Willink?

  That people don't learn for this interaction with a person that you've just met for the first time. This, this interaction as you go into an office and you're wanting help. This protocol, when you sit down in, in the book, you lay out, uh, you know, etiquette at dinner.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Those are the kind of things that we don't have protocols for, and it's not good.

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  It's not good. I, uh, the reason I, well, I had experience with my dad. He would pick me up on Mondays. That was his quarter point at date, uh, day for, uh, us to spend time together. Uh, make a long story short, you know, we went to my favorite restaurant at the time, Red Lobster, and I had no idea when we were eating that I wasn't practicing good dining etiquette. He never had taught me. So he drops me off at my mother's house and I'm thinking everything was good. Then about maybe 10 to 15 minutes later, I hear my mother yelling and arguing with someone. I go in her room. I say, hey, mom, what's going on? She said, that was your dad. He was upset at me for not teaching you how to eat at the table.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  So as a young boy, that hurt me because I'm in the car with you. You didn't say a word. I'm at dinner with you. You didn't teach me, but yet you condemn me to my mother, who you thought she should teach your son how to eat correctly at the table. And so that wound, once I was able to heal it, I said, I'm gonna create a training for young men that they'll never have to go through that. And dining etiquette is so important. Jocko, I can't tell you how many jobs I got when I was in construction. Just how I presented myself at the business dinner or at breakfast. One job I got is funny. I'm with a contractor and I had my portfolio. We didn't have iPhones back then. We had literally

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  pictures with us and, uh, I forgot I hadn't washed my hands. My food that came, I already cut my pancakes. I said, excuse me, I need to go wash my hands. So I go to the restroom, wash my hands, come back and I'm going to show my portfolio. And he says, no, I don't need, I don't need to see your work. You got the job. I'm like, How, how, how do you give me the job and you haven't seen my work? And he points to my pancake. He says, anyone who cuts their pancakes like this can cut my towel. And when I looked down, they were symmetrically cut. Like a pie chart, literally. And I had no idea the practice had became a part of who I was. And I have young kids who go off to college.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  They would get scholarships solely off how they conducted themselves at the dining table. And they would text me, Mr. Wilson, it works. I just got a $5,000 scholarship or $10,000 scholarship. Because that's where a lot of business is done. How many young, our sons, when they want to go on their first date? Or finally, maybe take the woman out of their dreams? And one of the greatest intimidations for a lot of men is, what do I do with this silverware? How do I enter the table, exit the table? You know, uh, which fork is for what? I mean, it's a lot there. But I, I love teaching it from a combat perspective as well. So when we teach them how to hold the knife and the fork, we actually use it like it's training.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  And so the kids love it and they learn how to balance the knife and the fork here. Put your index finger at the neck of the fork. And, and when they cut on the test, we have tough pita bread. And they can't scratch the plate. So I'm teaching them.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  What is it, like a paper plate? Or you just mean audio wise?

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Audio wise, I don't want to hear any scraping of the plate. Once you cut, take your time to cut enough and use that fork to control that piece of pita bread. And then you gotta cut it into four pieces. So now if you have a steak, I don't have to worry about you butchering it at the table. You know how to use your utensils and how to eat correctly. And, you know, the napkin placement, how do you, do you fold it? Or do you just throw it up there when you have to go use the restroom? And the confidence these young boys get, and then the fathers who are looking like, hey, I, I need to do some of this training as well. And it's, it's more than just about the dining experience. It's about the social gathering as well, because a lot of our children are disconnected. They don't know how to communicate because they use their phones.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  And so with our dining etiquette trainings, they can't have their phones at the table. And they're graded upon conversation as well. Like can you make a conversation entertaining or engaging? And it's really a beautiful thing to see when kids get the epiphany like, I don't need my phone to communicate. Cause this is what real life is, you know, uh, depends on what circles you're in. And so that's uh, the gentleman, especially the uh, chivalry piece. You know, it's very important um, to teach our boys how to be respectful and kind. Not just to women, but elderly people as well, you know, um. For me, I have a affinity for the elderly care, um, because of me caring for my mother.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  But you know, uh, I think every man, if you're strong, you should be the protector of those who are weak. Um, and, and same thing with women, you're not pandering to them. It's a code of honor. Literally chivalry was a code of honor for medieval knights. Like, how did we let that go to your point in the last podcast?

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uh, in this book, The Way the Warrior Kid.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  At one point, the uncle says, you know, if you want to be a warrior, you gotta go and research what being a warrior actually is. And so he goes and he goes and researches in the library and he gets the, the Navy SEAL code, the Ranger creed, the, he gets the Bushido code, or the, what is it? The seven Bushido characteristics. And he has the, the Viking code in there and he's got the chivalry, the code of chivalry in there. All those different things. And then, and then he assembles his own code. And this is another thing that's in the book is, he doesn't get issued a code from his uncle. His uncle doesn't say, you're a warrior kid. This is how a warrior kid behaves. He takes all those ideas and he applies them into his life and then he comes up with his own warrior kid code.

• 1:49:47Jocko Willink?

  This is how I'm gonna live.

• 1:49:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what's, so back to the book a little bit. As I was reading this section, right? It's talking about, you know, dressing nice and tucking your shirt in and all this stuff. And I'm super laid back. Like you can see me as I go, shorts and flip flop. That's what I wear. T-shirt, short, flip flop. That's kind of my, that's kind of my thing. And I was kind of like, oh, you know, I can't really relate to that. And then it just, I'm so, it's so crazy because.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  I am so particular about, uh, like I have a consulting company, Aston Front. This is the uniform. Like this is what you're gonna wear. We all wear it. You like shave, you have a haircut, you, you have, you know, the, the, the pants, the belt, the, the polo shirt, the black t-shirt, like it's all, it's all a thing. And what's funny is in the military, I was very strict about how my guys looked. Making sure that they were wearing the proper uniforms, making sure that they were in uniform things. And then there's this old saying, and I realized that, you know, you get a lot of, uh, you get a lot of your DNA when you're in your first SEAL platoon.

• 1:50:59Jocko Willink?

  And you get a lot of your DNA from like hearing from the older guys in the SEAL platoons. Well, when I was a young SEAL, one of the mantras back then was, avoid wearing a uniform at all costs. I mean, avoid wearing your full Navy uniform at all costs. But if you have to wear it, look perfect. And that is exactly, I want to wear a t-shirt and surf shorts and sandals. But when it's time to go to work, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look as squared away as I possibly can.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  And that's what my mentors, I talked about in that chapter, he was wise. He says, why isn't your shirt tucked in? And I'm like, I don't need to wear my shirt tucked in, I'm just chilling, you know, I'm just going to, and he just looked at me and kept, continued to write, and he's a multimillionaire, very successful. And when I went to go for this estimate.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. I said, you know, I'm gonna tuck my shirt in.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  I'm gonna tuck my shirt in this time. I got a contract I had never gotten in that area in Michigan. And the guy said it was my presentation. My hat was embroidered, my logo was embroidered, shirt tucked in, I didn't have my work boots on for estimates. I had two sets of boots, one for, uh, work and one for estimates. Had to take measure for work, take measure for estimates. When I'm in these multi-million dollar homes, you don't want thin set falling off while you're measuring in a kitchen countertops. So I learned like, this is skill. And even one of my mentors, when it took me a little bit longer to get into like what this is really about, he knew I love martial arts. He says, I'mma tell you this, he says, you're wearing the wrong armor to the fight.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  He says, you're the circles you're in now, you need to look a certain way for right now. Then you get to the level of Steve Jobs, you can wear a T-shirt and Levi's. You can go back again. Yeah, he said, but until you get there, wear the right armor for the fight. And it was a major difference in all of my networking and business dealings. It, it changed a lot and I, you know, I tell the young boys, they wear their durags in public. And I say, well, what's the original intent of this durag? What, where is it meant to be worn? They said, home, uh, charaf, they call me that, it's the sensei, charaf in Hebrew means servant. I said, well, why do you have it on in here? And even with my son with the dishwasher, that's his thing now, like he doesn't wash dishes. He just throws them in the dishwasher.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  And I'm looking for like utensils or dishes, like where, where is everything? They're in the dishwasher. I'm like, okay, stop for, wait a minute. Do you live in a bathtub? He says, of course not. I say, the dishwasher is not the proper place to store the dishes. This, this equipment is meant to wash everything. When it's done, you take everything out and put it where it belongs in the cabinets. I'mma trip it home, so I'm, that's why we could talk forever, cause I see where I like. But it's like, I'm not wrong. That's the inventor of this did not make this dishwasher for dishes to be stored. So let's use it for what it's for. And so it's funny when you talk to kids in a way that's respectful.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  And then like encourage them to really think a little deeper, they change, you know? And so that's what's really cool. And especially like flip flops, like we went, you know, Andy Frisella, right? So that's my guy. So he sponsored the cave to come out the first forum. I say on the note for the parents, no slides, flip flops, none, none of that. You can't wear any of that. Why? I say, well, first and foremost, from a combat perspective, I would love for you to have on some slides trying to fight me. Okay. Secondly, you're not lounging where we're going.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  And so Andy and his team at First Form, they did an amazing job with us. Showing them the business side of how things are done. And when they were finished, they were like, wow. So you do have us put the chair under the table for a reason. Like, that's where it belongs. Did you see anything out of order in First Form? The dumbbells, even the way they're turned, everything is lined up perfect, perfectly. There's nothing wrong with that. It depends on where and who you want to be around in life. Yeah, and so it's a certain criteria. I mean, you come to our building, it's spotless. Our kids like, no, this is how it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be dirty. My car is clean. My kids will say, Mr. Wilson, whenever your car is ever dirty.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  I say, when should it be dirty? You're saying it like I'm wrong for keeping it clean. My car should stay clean if I can help it. You know, so those are principles we're teaching. You see a mark on the wall, wipe it off. It doesn't belong there. Or, uh, the kids who, all our kids do all the janitorial work of the building. We pay them instead of outsourcing it to a janitorial company. It's one wall in our cold plunge room. For some reason, they keep hitting my wall with the tools. And I said, you know what? This is the last time. I said, because this isn't making sense. All of you are teenagers, you're not paying attention. I said, and I'm not going to paint this wall dark so that you can continue to doing something not the correct way.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  I said, so the next time I have to patch this wall and paint it, it's coming out of your check. I said, because there's no reason for you to keep nicking my wall up. The principle is what? Attention to detail. Stay focused. What is causing you to jam hit my, are you rushing? You shouldn't be rushing because we have enough time allotted for everything to be done in excellence. And so they're missing the Jocko's of the world, the Echoes, myself, in the everyday environment. When they don't see it, they can't be it. And then you wonder why communities look the way they do. Because it's an absence of us and, or men who could be on that level. They just need the nurturing or the coaching.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  And then they gotta have the application to do it. But yeah, man, it's all about, I'm just like you, man. Like, everything. I mean, on the table, everything is lined up. Uh, if you meet my wife, she'll tell you like, oh, he next level. So, your car, clean, everything, my home. When you walk in and we had a guy come out, cause we saw some bugs come in. He looked on the floor, he was like, well, it's definitely not from your house not being clean. He says, the cleanest house I've ever been to in my life. Like, what he, who cleans it? I said, I do. It's a principle. I like my home in order, you know? And, um, when you show boys that way, without condemning them, and they, they, they take to it.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  My son, my daughter does it now. They were fighting it their whole childhood, but, um, it's worth it, man. It's worth modeling it and seeing the results even better, man.

• 1:57:50Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do when your daughter was, uh, had the dirty room?

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  That's when I didn't understand. I was just a masculine male. Um, I thought it was disrespectful. I would yell, why can't you do what I need to be done? I'm always the one gotta clean up around here. And I missed, completely missed all that she was going through in middle school. And, um, I remember one time when I knew something was wrong, I went to help her with running track, you know? So I surprised her at the school and I'm just trying to help, you know, teach the kids how to run. She comes in a circle with all her friends and me and yells, why are you here? I want, you shouldn't even be here. And that crushed me. And so I was in her space, you see? But I hadn't developed, to your point, the relationship.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  I wanted it, but I overstepped my bounds because she didn't really, she looked at that action of love as me being protective dad. Trying to make sure everything is correct. But it was deep, Jocko, when she came, I had to go back into school because she had forgot something. She had already been in the car with Nicole. I get back in the car, I say, I found it, everything is good. And when I turned back around, I hear her burst out into tears. And she just started crying. She says, daddy, I'm so sorry. I was so mean to you earlier and I couldn't meet the moment. I didn't know what to say, because I wasn't tapped into my emotions. I wasn't emotionally intelligent.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  I said, it's okay, baby, I understand, but I should have dug deeper then. Like, what triggered that? What did dad do to trigger that response? I don't blame you for that. That came from somewhere. And I missed that. And that's what I give men in this book. It's like, you have it. You just gotta tap in. Tap into your humanity, what you feel. Stop fearing that. Your kids need all of you, not just a protector and provider. So now that I'm able to give my daughter that, I mean, she's 29 now. Uh, I wish I could go back, but I can't. So I don't linger there. I just make the most of where I am now. I want to be more present with my son. I know I could even do even more.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Like, what does that take? Can you give me my report card today? Where's dad at on intentionality? Where's dad at with patience? Where's dad at with understanding and seeking you out? You know, where am I at? You know? And, and that's what's really important, man, right now. And so many men, they want it, but because of the way we were raised, they fear being that way. Like, it's somehow will make them vulnerable, susceptible to harm or being mistreated or impassively dismissed. And so, the comprehensive man, he's courageous, but also compassionate, strong but sensitive. He lives from the good of his heart instead of the fear of how he'll be perceived. He's authentically human. And that's what I want for men.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  You know, stay strong, but when a moment requires you to be sensitive, be sensitive.

• 2:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Your daughter's room is not clean. What's your protocol?

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  I ask her to clean the room.

• 2:01:01Jocko Willink?

  She's doesn't clean it. Discipline or freedom.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom, yeah. Okay, she cleans it, but then the next day, two days later, it's dirty again.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, clean the room again. Well, are you asking me hypothetically? Like, I don't know, like, in real life?

• 2:01:17Jocko Willink?

  In real life, yeah.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, we say, we say clean the room. I say clean the room, she cleans the room.

• 2:01:21Jocko Willink?

  And then, but, but, like, a couple of days later, it's dirty again? You say, say clean it again?

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  What about now?

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  The, the room cleaning thing is not an issue, I don't think.

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  She keeps it clean?

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  In the house. No, no, not constant clean, but yeah, she should mess it up for sure, a hundred percent.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  But even your response now, after this conversation?

• 2:01:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  And it's dirty, say, back to back, you know, in one week, you still just say, clean your room?

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  Well, I think there's a big, bigger picture here, especially if we're drawing comparisons. So I'm not as squared away as you are, so I allow a lot more slack with the room cleaning scenario. But yes, like if one day, let's say, see, nothing's really going on right now. And we'll say, and then I see the room, the room messy. And then I'll be like, okay, yeah, okay, we gotta clean the room.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  She gotta clean the room. She cleans the room. So I don't think ever in her eleven and a half years, she's ever been like, no. Or I will and then not, you know, whatever, you know?

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  Um, she's always cleaning the room, but then let's say, I don't know what, like, every day it's back dirty all the time or whatever. Yeah, I don't think that's ever happened. Um, even if it did, I don't think I'd, I'd make a, I would make a big deal.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  But not even making a big deal, but ask her why? You know what I mean? Like literally sit in the room and say, hey, baby, you know, um, mom and dad expects the room to be clean, but we're noticing that it's becoming dirty more frequently, like, is anything going on? Personally, and she may not share, I'm just saying that, you know, there's a cause and effect for every behavior. And of course, you know, no parent should be like I was, is dogmatic about keeping a room clean. And make that unequivocally clear. I'm saying let's not miss the signs that are there.

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  That's all I'm saying.

• 2:03:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying a dirty room always equates to something going on in her life that's, uh, stressful. But for her not to hear, you know, um, you know, a request of a parent, you know, like. Like my son's room stays clean a lot. Doesn't mean that he's impervious to drama at school or stress. Like a clean room doesn't equate to your kid is all good. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying, are you willing to dive a little deeper, like emotionally?

• 2:03:36Speaker 02

  I'm willing and do dive very deeply emotionally with both my kids for various reasons. I think, but I think you're right though. But when I say, um, different comparisons have to be drawn or whatever. Since I'm not as squared away, or let's say it's not as high on the priority list as far as like, hey, room needs to be clean. Like the default should be clean, right? That's kind of, I'm like, it can, look, if it's freaking super speaking span, hey, big up to you for doing it. If it's not, um, it's not going to move me either way. If it's chronically dirty or unsanitary or something like this, then okay, I'm going to say something about it. And then I'm going to gauge how, what's her reaction. Same saying, and her reaction typically or hundred percent of the time is positive.

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  Like she's never talked back. She's never whatever. She's diamond. She's a very nice girl, you know? But yeah, I think it does start with me as, you know, one of the many lessons we've learned today. It, it starts with me and kind of my, for lack of a better term, standard, you know, for as far as just cleanliness in general. And it applies other things.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  You know, it was deep I share transparently where mine came from, my this desire for everything in order was my dad, you know? Um, he yelled at me, cursed at me because I had a hairbrush on the kitchen table. I didn't know it was unsanitary. Instead of teaching me why, he just yelled at me. And as a result, that room turned into, hmm, this means you don't respect me. But my daughter's room would be cluttered, closet packed with clothes. And understanding psychology now, there's a direct correlation to a lot of that. It is. And so, um, a lot of times we miss that as parents because we're busy. We have a lot going on.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  But nothing's more important than that. And that's why I always go back to, Jason, what can you live with? Could you live with being a successful author, but a failure as a dad? No, no, no. I'd rather be a failure as an author and successful as a dad. And so that's cool, man. You, you're locked in with your daughters and how old are you now?

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  Forty seven.

• 2:05:35Speaker 01

  Forty seven, yeah. And you know, um, how old are your children? You said seven? My son is Eleven, right? And yeah. Eleven, okay, awesome, yeah, that's good, man, yeah. Um, if I could go back, that would be my thing. I would sit in a dirty room with her and talk. You know, um, like what's going on? And that's, that's what I missed. Yeah. Yeah, man.

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  This is one of the many, many, many, many things that will come up with the children.

• 2:06:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:06:04Jocko Willink?

  But it's such a common one, right?

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  But, and then you gotta, you know, for me, it was always like, for me now, how do I prioritize the relationship, right? And, and, hey, your room is messy. How much leadership capital am I willing to expend? Cause you know what? If your room is messy, I'll shut the door. My house isn't messy. My house is clean. Now, if you have plates and hands in there.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a different story.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Then, then I will take the plates and I'll put them on your bed. Face down, right? Possibly. No, but I, but I, I wouldn't really do that. I've done that a couple of times.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Not regularly.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Not the normal.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  But for me, it's like,

• 2:06:54Jocko Willink?

  I want to give my kids as much freedom as I can. And I want to treat them in a way where they are responsible for what's going on in their world. Case in point, if you got a bunch of clothes on your floor, I know those clothes didn't make it to the hamper and I know they're not getting washed. So you're gonna run out of laundry. So eventually, that kid, whether they're eight, 10, 12, they go, oh, if I want to have clean clothes, I need to move the clothes from the floor to the hamper to the laundry. Otherwise, they're not getting cleaned. Now, I will say this, little disconnect. My wife will go in there, pick up the clothes, put them in the, clean them, fold them up, put them back.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  This is why we get along so much. My wife, if my son doesn't bring a lunch to school, Jay, um, little Jay doesn't have lunch at school, I'm like, can he learn today?

• 2:07:46Jocko Willink?

  He's not.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  He's not gonna die.

• 2:07:47Jocko Willink?

  I promise you, he's not gonna starve to death.

• 2:07:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:49Jocko Willink?

  My wife would be. Uh, scolding my son about not cleaning the dishes while she's literally cleaning the dishes that he didn't clean. And I'd say darling, it's funny. My wife would go on a trip somewhere. My wife, you know, she cooking dinner, cook, making lunches, cleaning. Everything just awesome. When she goes away.

• 2:08:13Jocko Willink?

  I didn't do any of that stuff. Kids did every, the kids will do everything. Like they'll make the dinner, clean the dinner, clean. They do everything. Laundry, sweep, clean, everything's like that. But you just have to like, give them that void where they can make that stuff happen. So yeah, I would say parenting, it's like, you know, look, if your kids are, room is unsanitary. For sure. Or if it's a danger to firefighters that might have to come in there, like that you can brief your kids on, they can understand why. Hey, I'm not just, it's just not me because I'm a weird OCD, uh, neat freak. Yeah. No, hey, firefighters got to come in here and they're tripping over stuff and there's fire. Like that's going to be terrible.

• 2:08:52Jocko Willink?

  You can't have stuff on your floor. Like you can't have stuff on your floor. Boom. You know, you can kind of explain that. They can understand the why.

• 2:09:01Jocko Willink?

  But if all you do is, you know, impose your standard of the way you want things, that takes a little bit of, it's not respecting them. It's not allowing them to influence you and it, it can, it can disrupt the relationship a little bit if you go too far with it. Yes, for sure. Now, if they go too far with it and now they're not respecting your house and there's ants on the floor and that, then we can have a conversation about it.

• 2:09:28Jocko Willink?

  The sixth rule of the warrior kid. The warrior kid keeps things neat and is always prepared and ready for action. That's good. Got to have that neat robe. This is like from the SEAL teams. Like you keep your gear squared away. Yes, yes. You keep your gear squared away. For sure. That's the way it is. And to me, that's like, oh yeah. I, I, kind of my minimum standard. I call it functional cleanliness. That's good. Yeah. Functional cleanliness. Yes, there you go. If you go to my garage gym right now that I have. Yes. There's chalk on the floor. It's not overwhelming. It doesn't, isn't, but it's there. I use that gym this morning and I use chalk and I'm going to use it tomorrow morning and the morning after that.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  So it's functionally clean.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  If now if I go in there and like my kids were in there working out and all of a sudden there's crap everywhere. Now it's not functionally clean. I can't use it.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:10:27Jocko Willink?

  So that's kind of where I draw the line with

• 2:10:28Speaker 02

  That's really good.

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Stuff on the floor. I can't walk through your room.

• 2:10:32Speaker 02

  That's a problem. Yeah.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  It's not functional.

• 2:10:34Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  So functional cleanliness is my, is my minimum standard.

• 2:10:37Speaker 02

  I'll take that. Yeah.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Now, when you get into like a professional environment, like the cave, that is a professional learning environment and it is an example to everyone that walks in that building. There is only one standard for that.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:10:52Jocko Willink?

  And that is the standard of excellence.

• 2:10:53Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:10:54Jocko Willink?

  If you walked into, you know, a, a military

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  building that represents, there's something called the quarter deck of a, of a Navy building. The quarter deck comes from a ship, but there's one in the, in a building as well. And it's where you enter the ship. Well, it's where you enter the building as well. When you go into a Navy quarter deck, like the quarter deck of SEAL Team One, that thing better be spotless.

• 2:11:17Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  It better be outstanding because that's representing the team. So there's, the only standard is excellence.

• 2:11:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:11:27Jocko Willink?

  That's why when you're having guests to your house, it's like, uh, the standard is raised. So when we're having, you know, when, when my mother-in-law is coming over from England, now the standard, I tell my kids, hey, your grandma's coming. This, look, I, you know, you can't have dish by the bed.

• 2:11:47Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:11:47Jocko Willink?

  If it's just me, dish by the bed for one day, no big deal. Slack. Grandma's coming? No slack. Clean it up. That's kind of where we're at.

• 2:11:56Speaker 02

  So technically your funk, functional cleanliness is, because technically, even if you're going business environment, the cave, and you want sheer excellence, technically that is functional cleanliness.

• 2:12:07Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you're right.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  Because, and you really want to go big picture, let's say, Jason Wilson, more squared away, a lot more clean, we'll say, than let's say the average person. If you're trying to maintain a culture of a certain level of cleanliness, that's functional.

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  Just because, I mean, the standard can slide, but it's still functional.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  It's very good. Yeah, even now that you bring that up, Jac, I'm with my son, he has his desk in his room where he does his homework, and I let some things slide. I, I, I've learned a lot, you know, since raising my daughter, like, the hoodies and be on his chair, I'm like, my man, that's supposed to be on the hanger in the closet. And I let it go, you know, and, um, but when it's chore day, Fridays, you know, like, hey, let's lock in, you know, but that's, yeah, I'm gonna use that functional cleanliness. Yeah, and in the cave, you know, we take, we have the parents take pictures of their bedrooms, and they send them to us. And we have fun, it's fun in the cave.

• 2:13:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's good.

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  We'll show the kids rooms, like, look at this room, and they're like, ah, why is that out? And we, the point is, like, can we do better? And so now it becomes a fun game for them. Well, my next picture, my room's gonna be tighter. And then those that do, they get these awards, excuse me, they get these awards for that. And it changes the culture of the kids, and the parents say, wow, like, now that this is in order, I see it now in his homework. It changes, because clutter does a lot to your mind as well.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  See, that, that, that becomes something a little bit different. That becomes a corrective measure for life, right? Which, I can't support that anymore. If you have somebody that they're, they're living like a slob, they're not doing their standard protocols on a daily basis, and you can then imprint upon them, hey, you gotta start your day off right, you gotta make it. Like, like for me, when I was in the SEAL Teams, when I would leave my, I would never leave my desk. At the end of the day, I put every, I square my desk away. I wouldn't get out a pledge, spray it and wipe it down. I wouldn't do that. But there would be no junk sitting on it. There would be no stack of papers.

• 2:14:17Jocko Willink?

  It would be squared away. If someone walked in there, they'd go, oh, this is a squared away desk. Same thing at my house. Like, it's like, oh, a couple of days can go by and my desk can get some, you know, like working on a book over here and I got some stuff and some mail came in. But after a while, it's like, oh, no, this is not okay. So you gotta square that away. But if you have someone that's, whole life has been wild. And we want to teach them how to control their life, control their emotions, control their behavior. Well, we can teach them by teaching them to control their room. Teaching them to control their bed when they wake up in the morning. Those are things that you can do. That's what they do in the military. Look what they do in the military.

• 2:15:00Jocko Willink?

  They drop a quarter on your bed to make, see if the thing bounces, to see if you've got it tight enough. They're teaching you, here are the protocols to be disciplined with your room. Then it's gonna go to the behavior, then it's gonna go to how you do your job. Then it becomes your emotions, then it becomes how you function. So that's great stuff.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  My friend Gabriel, again, was a Marine. He said the same thing. He never understood the cleanliness aspect of being a Marine. What does it have to do with battle? He says, you'll know when we get out there, everything has to be in order. Yeah, but I'm like, even with my son, it's like, now that I'm thinking about it, it is, like he'll make his bed. It looks good on the top.

• 2:15:44Speaker 01

  So I looked up this, this, this spread, the sheets, everything is out of order. He just, you know, wanted to get by dad. I said, this is a problem. You're creating a bad habit. And he says, how dad? I said, well, it's not done in excellence. So you have a book report due or some things due and you can just do the bare minimum. You're gonna do that because you programmed yourself to live that way. I said, but I'm coming behind you. This is my opportunity. This is a perfect training ground for you, son, because you're still here. So now, not only do you have to remake the bed, you're gonna wash all of the linen. Because you haven't washed this in a while. I see the slob stains on the pillowcases. Because I don't have time to check behind them like that. I'm not that type of dad.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  And he appreciates it. It's like, man, I love you. This is love. Like, I wish my dad did this with me. Don't yell at me demonstrably and give me no reason for, you know, your action. Tell me why and how this will hurt me long term. Son, do everything to your best ability. In building, if your sheets were the foundation and the cover was just the bricks, your house will fall. Because you didn't lay it solid. That's what I love about ceramic tile. You get a stress, a stress crack in the tile. You didn't have to tell me too much. I know the foundation wasn't laid correctly. So we were all much at our tile. We couldn't use cement board.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  So we would do it the old Italian way. We would pack our cement and screed it off. And the floor would be level in all four directions. And have the metal lab underneath. I knew my floors, none of them cracked. Whenever I saw a stress crack in the tile, bad foundation. Someone didn't put in the work where it mattered the most, thought it could be hidden, get your money and leave. And so little Jay, I learned that and it's like, I agree, Jocko, you can't let certain things slide. You don't want to be overbearing and, you know, majoring in the minors, you know, functional cleanliness is the best. But even with that bed being made that way, I don't ever want to see it that way. Because now I'm allowing a spirit of laziness to set in.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Because the only reason you didn't do it, either you didn't get up on time because the alarm, I heard you hit snooze five times. Okay, that already going to create more anxiety than you need in the morning. But also, let's stay to the principles. Is this how it's supposed to be done? It's not about being overbearing. Is this correct? If not, they're gonna go in life and you wonder why the police giving you a call. He thought he could get away with it. She thought she could do this. No. Here are the principles they apply all throughout life and I agree with you is like give them room to make the mistake but then correct it and give them the the right advice on how to move forward and again they don't come with manuals.

• 2:18:37Jocko Willink?

  See what what bothers me about that story is the fact that he tried to get one over.

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  See what I'm saying?

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  He's good.

• 2:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Because that's you know for for me like there's like line in the sand like if you lie to me.

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. We got a problem.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Yes, major.

• 2:18:55Jocko Willink?

  We got a you got a problem.

• 2:19:00Jocko Willink?

  Is it because because I'm very understanding and if you straight outside the bounds and you made a mistake and you know I ask you about it and you tell me what happened. You know, here's most people are surprised about this, but like my kids like I didn't have curfews for my kids. You come home, you know, going to a party, you know, you're in 10th grade, going to a party, cool. You know, have a good time. What time do I need to be home? Just, you know, don't do anything stupid. They come home at midnight, they come home at 10, they come home at 1. Like, okay.

• 2:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Now, if they because I trusted them because I trusted that they were going to go out and they had good values to make good decisions. And and did it were they perfect kids? Nope, nope, you know, there were there was times where I'd be like, oh, that's you know, that's not that's not okay. But when they told me the truth, it was like, I'll work with it.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  But I wanted them to have enough freedom that they knew that I trusted them. They knew that I respected what they were doing. And and then put trust in them, which means they could trust me. And you know what that meant was they could talk to me, you know, my kids would tell me, oh, you know, this happened at school or this kid's doing this something so I felt like it worked out pretty good, like, you know, with the kids, but um. It's such a, it's a balance, right? It's a balance. But then a couple of red lines, you know, that you can't cross. Lying is one of them.

• 2:20:34Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:20:35Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  That's major. Um, there was a saying when I grew up, if you lie, you are still. And it seemed to be always true with a lot of my friends who would lie to their parents. And I would tell Jay, you know, you don't ever wanna lose my trust. Cause I, I give my life for you, that goes without saying, but anything my son needs, I make it happen. If I can make it happen, I'm gonna get it for you, if you're doing what you're supposed to do. And so those random checks, you know, for functional cleanliness, um, is always good, even going underneath the bed. Like, my man, what, what is this? Uh, no wonder we miss this, cause we used to wear the same, like Nike socks. I stopped that, I just bought me some straight black ones, cause I got tired of not having enough.

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  No, me, I brought gray ones. That's what I do. I brought gray ones, cause my son's same ring. Like, once he was my size, everything was disappearing.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's like, no, my man, and so just like, is this supposed to be there? And I know, and it's, it's no argument, that's what I love, it's like, you got me, dad. That's all I can say, like, okay, cool, let's do better. Let's not let this keep happening, like laundry, when he's folding the clothes, like, my man, it don't take three hours. I said, I know what it is, it's your phone. I said, watch, I'm gonna take this phone away, let's see how fast you get done.

• 2:21:50Jocko Willink?

  Boy, that phone is the, is like a corrective measure you can use on kids now. You know, like you just said, it take you three hours to fold the clothes with your phone. If I take your phone, you're turning into a, a freaking master Chinese laundrette.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Stuff's just getting told.

• 2:22:08Speaker 01

  Our son told me and my, my wife Nicole, we were bragging to another couple, like, yeah, when we took Jay's phone, he's, he's so much nicer and kind. We, we really think it's the social media pulling him away. He was like, nah, I just wanted my phone back.

• 2:22:24Speaker 01

  And I'm like, man, I'm thinking, you know, it was some science behind what we were doing. He's like, nah, I'll just be a nice.

• 2:22:30Jocko Willink?

  I'm playing the game. We'll take it.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 2:22:39Jocko Willink?

  Next section here, the friend. The friend loves at all times and is steadfast in the face of adversity, willing to lay down his life for his companions. It's, it's seems so obvious, right? Seems so obvious, but boy, isn't it important to lay down a good foundation?

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:22:59Jocko Willink?

  So that people understand. And I had a friend call me up and he needs something and, you know, it was a little bit of a big ask. He called me up, he said, hey, I need, I said, here's the situation I'm in. I need this. And I was like, all right, friendship dues are up, I guess I'm in. You know what I mean? That's what we're doing.

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't just talk this game like you need something. He called me, called me on it. Okay, we're doing this then.

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:23:24Jocko Willink?

  But so important to, for people to understand what that, what that actually means.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:23:29Jocko Willink?

  You know, a friend is someone you can call and they're going to answer the call and they're going to step in and we're going to get stuff done.

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I told little Jay, uh, he was disappointed by some kids at school when he was younger. And he said, they weren't a good friend. I said, well, really, son, there's no such thing as a good or bad friend. They are their friend or they're not. I said, so when you remove that, you understand what a friend is now. And so that helped him a lot, like, hmm, okay, they either a friend or not. This is not my friend. And so, um, yeah, you don't need, uh, an adjective before the word friend. It's strong enough to stand on its own.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:24:08Jocko Willink?

  Part three, the devotion characteristics. First one, out of the gate, the husband. The husband emulates Christ's love by sacrificially giving of himself for his wife's well-being, treating her as he would like to be honored.

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  That's a big one.

• 2:24:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, this is the one that you couldn't think of earlier for these little sayings. Happy wife, happy life.

• 2:24:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:24:34Jocko Willink?

  It's like, okay, we understand what that means. But there better be a little something more behind that.

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it never was a term of endearment. You know, as men, we, we were taught to give that life to our wives so that we have some peace and they'd be quiet. That's what that came from. And so women are starting, they getting up on game like, wait a minute. Um, if you're not happy, I'm not happy either, you know, and COVID exposed a lot of it with the divorce rates. They thought everything was good because they got pretty much what they wanted, but their husbands never really dealt with the tough conversations because they weren't good verbal processors.

• 2:25:11Jocko Willink?

  Would you say verbal processors? What do you mean by that?

• 2:25:13Speaker 01

  Meaning someone that can articulate with their feelings with composure. Not having to, for me, my thing was hitting the table. I'm sick of always boom, and I would do that instead of saying, well, no, Nicole. Um, every time you question my leadership with finances, it actually hurts me and it actually reminds me of a time when my father would trust me with such and such. And I would like for you to, um, please trust me moving forward and more so, what have I done to blow your trust? Instead of saying, why don't you submit to my leadership?

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  Babe, why don't you trust me? Because that's the heart, that's where I'm speaking from. That's, that's hurt because it hurts me that you don't trust my leadership. What did I do? How can I improve? And when I communicate that way, my wife drops her guard because she's hearing my heart. And now she meets the moment and come right there with me. And so when you're a verbal processor, you can speak the true emotions behind, you know, what you feel or your thoughts without actually losing control of the moment. A lot of times, uh, Nicole, she joked about like she could be wrong. And because I lack composure.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  Now I have to apologize to her for the way I talked to her and she was initially wrong. So now when we, when I have to call her on something and she does it too, I can see it. I'm like, I'm not losing this. Like, no, no, I'm, we're gonna stay here. I'mma stay at this level here, we're gonna communicate. Like, no, you were wrong. Why did you say that? No, because that wasn't right. Why? No, let us stay here. No, no, no, let's stay. No, no. Why did you do that? And keep it right there in eye-to-eye contact and communicate the heart of the matter. Now, I'm not yelling or anything and we're gonna hold each other responsible for the way we're treating each other. And there is no outs. We're gonna labor with each other and work with each other and communicate.

• 2:27:06Speaker 01

  Tell men, stop holding it in. Learn how to verbalize it. Cause you're holding it in, it's like a champagne bottle. Life is gonna shake you. Eventually, it's gonna pop. And you wonder why you lost control with the simplest offense. Like, man, that, dang, her saying that did not warrant that reaction. It's because you held it in. Learn how to communicate in a way where she can hear your heart and not be on defense, you know? A lot of times, we're yelling, our body language. A woman who's small in stature, she's gonna back up. She's gonna try to protect herself, guard herself. But when you communicate, just like you do a lot of times, I hear you and I'm locked in.

• 2:27:51Speaker 01

  But if you yelled at every time you talked, you wouldn't have, no one, no one would come. And so that's what a verbal processor is. He's verbalizing what he's processed. And a lot of times, as men, we can't process because we suppress or repress what we feeling. And that's been a game changer for me and my wife is not sweeping things under the rug for the sake of peace. But truly having peace by bringing these issues to the forefront. You know, we have a saying, peace is not the absence of chaos, adversity, and trials. It's being in the midst of those things and still remaining calm at heart. And that's how I view it at home. If there's an issue, I'm not gonna sweep it under the rug. It's gonna be tough. Let's talk about this.

• 2:28:34Speaker 01

  But this conversation doesn't need to turn into an argument. And I'm not gonna let it turn into that. Voices start raising like, hey, well, let's table this, but we still need to continue this conversation. And as men, we have a right to say, hey, nah, they so used to us coming to the bedroom because they can give us some like, no, that's not I'm sorry. I need to hear you say, I'm sorry, uh, Jock for hurting you. You know, my words weren't right and I shouldn't have said that to you. Then after that, we can have sex, man. But I, I, I wanna make sure, you know, um,

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  again, I've seen so many couples, you know, marriages fold because they don't face it head on, you know? Um, and when you're successful, you have money and resources. You can hide a lot, you know? And Nicole and I have chosen to, to go the hard path and really work through this, uh, the issues that happened before we met. And then those issues that created the issues when we met, like, we're still working. Even today, everything's fine, but we're still working like, hmm, you responded that way. Where did that come from? And to sit with that for a moment. Well, Jason and I fear losing control because when I was eight, that's how my home felt for a moment.

• 2:29:54Speaker 01

  And so I actually keep a picture of her in my phone during that time of her life. So if we're ever at a place in a day where we're not getting along, I look at that picture to keep my heart tender towards her. Because typically who you're arguing with isn't the grown woman in front of you. It's the child. Same thing with the husband. It's not the forty or fifty year old man. It's the fifteen year old boy who never was healed. That's why he's so reactionary. Like, how do we learn how to communicate that without feeling that our wives would use it against us and vice versa? Yeah.

• 2:30:30Jocko Willink?

  I always wanna let people know that when we talk about communication, when I talk about communication,

• 2:30:44Jocko Willink?

  and I'm talking about good communication, I'm actually talking about listening. And, you know,

• 2:30:53Jocko Willink?

  me, you know, there's a joke at Echelon Front where I work, I do this, I sit down and listen to someone and I put my hand like this, like kinda like the thinking man, what's that statue, the thinking man? Yeah. But, you know, people notice that I do it and I'm like, yeah, that's a way of letting you know, letting me know that I need to keep my mouth shut and listen to what this other person's saying. And going a little bit further, my goal is when you and I are having a discussion, is I wanna try and figure out how you're right and I'm wrong. That's my actual goal. I'm like, okay, Jason and I, we're going into some business deal and he wants to do it this way and I wanna do it that way. I sit down and cover up my mouth, I listen to what you have to say and my goal is to figure out how you're right and I'm wrong. That's my goal. Wow. And

• 2:31:38Jocko Willink?

  it's very, it's very helpful tool for opening up my mind, you know, because otherwise it's like, you know, when I'm like, you know, Jason thinks he's got a good idea, but I know my idea is better. So, okay, how do you wanna do it, Jason? And I'm just look, like you said something on the last podcast. Am I just listening to respond? Which is a totally different thing than listening to hear and listening to understand. So, I know, I know that the de-escalation, you know, the de-escalation fact, like I don't yell at my wife, my wife and I haven't yelled at each other. Maybe ever. She got a little hostile with me over Christmas.

• 2:32:19Jocko Willink?

  We were doing ice bath. Yeah. And so my whole family, this was last two Christmases ago, I think, and so my whole family were, it's in Montana and it's like, it's in the snow and there's ice and we have to chop the icing. So my whole family were out there, we're having fun. And

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  my son had heard Andrew Huberman talking about brown fat. And how the ice bath will improve your brown fat, which brown fat is good for you. And the brown fat is located around the clavicles and the upper back.

• 2:32:52Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:32:54Jocko Willink?

  So my wife is, so we're all taking rotations in the ice bath. And we're outside, we're in the jacuzzi, but we got the ice bath out there. So whoever's not in the ice bath, we're all sitting in the jacuzzi.

• 2:33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:05Jocko Willink?

  So my wife is in, so my wife gets into the ice bath. And my son this whole time has been yelling at everyone, get your brown fat in there. Come on. You gotta get down to your neck, right?

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:33:16Jocko Willink?

  So my wife is in there and I'm like, come on darling, get your brown fat down in there.

• 2:33:25Jocko Willink?

  Hostilities were received. She said, don't you tell me about that. I was like, okay darling.

• 2:33:32Speaker 01

  Nicole will never cold plunge.

• 2:33:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:33:35Speaker 01

  And we have one at the cave facility. She would not do it. We had that boy at thirty eight degrees and uh, the record is twenty two minutes in that. Yeah. And we were taught, oh, actually Andy Ficella taught me to go to the earlobes.

• 2:33:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's to get the brown fat in there.

• 2:33:51Speaker 01

  Boy, that, you talking about refocusing. Yeah, yeah. Nicole would never cold plunge. Yeah, we have a sauna. She's cool with that, but yeah, she would yell at me if I ever made a, and, and dare I hold her shoulders down in the water. You can't get that, you can't get out. You got to at least do twenty seconds.

• 2:34:09Jocko Willink?

  That happened with the whole family's like, oh, you know.

• 2:34:12Speaker 01

  So you guys did it outside.

• 2:34:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. But uh, but my, my point in saying that was like, you know, um, other than that outburst, we'll call that winter of twenty twenty three. Um, you know, like, I really like, listen to what my wife has to say. And I try and figure out how she's right and I'm wrong. It's usually not that hard. Um, but so, you know, again, when we thought, when we talk about, my point in saying this is, most people, when they think of communicating, they think of me, I'm gonna talk. I had, I was working with a client at Echelon Front and he was having an issue with one of his employees. And he was gonna give him a call. And so I'm like, okay, yep, sounds good.

• 2:34:54Jocko Willink?

  So he gives him a call, talks to him, calls me back. He says, oh, I just had a great conversation with so and so. I said, oh, that's awesome. I said, what percentage of time did you talk and what percentage of time did he talk?

• 2:35:09Jocko Willink?

  And he was just quiet because he knew, he knew he had gone on the thing and said, you know, Jason, I was thinking about what you, you know, you're the last project that you work on. You showed up a little bit late and he went on and talked and it was a great conversation for him. But what's Jason thinking on the other end? Jason's like, oh, here it is. Big boss man laying into me again. Can't, I can't get two words in edgewise. And so just think, just keep that in mind, you know, when communication, the best communication is when you listen, when you listen to what the other person has to say. And that allows you time to think how you can really articulate, articulate and verbally process correctly what you want to say.

• 2:35:52Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 2:35:54Jocko Willink?

  Cause otherwise, man, if you're just listening, that was a great, uh, listening to respond, what you said earlier. So, so, so smart. Don't do that.

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  That's good. That's good.

• 2:36:05Jocko Willink?

  You got another section in here staying in shape. Just gonna throw it out there. We're working out, man. We're working out. We gotta, you gotta stay in shape. Yeah. Gotta stay in shape. Uh, you know, that's one thing I, I noticed my wife would tell me, I trained jujitsu a lot. And if I don't train, she'll, you know, for a couple of days, she'll be like, you need to go train. You know, cause my attitude is just like, starts becoming a little bit, maybe not, you know, it's a little bit more unhappy. Cause jujitsu makes me very happy. Jujitsu makes me very happy.

• 2:36:39Speaker 01

  You know what? I, I, I agree, man. I, I even think it's, we should never allow the warrior to die in us. You know, as you get older, I've been convicted of that a lot lately is to get back and train, get some guys maybe my age, you know, the time for me to go in the jujitsu gyms is so hard because of my job and porn like, cause either it's real early or it's in the afternoon when I'm teaching and I miss it, you know, and when that warrior dies, um, a part of you go. And I think every man, no matter our age, if you can't go as hard, do something, you know, don't let the warrior die. And you get so busy that you neglect that side. And then you wonder why he comes out at times that he shouldn't. That's probably what your wife would see, you know, and it's like.

• 2:37:25Speaker 01

  I remember my blood pressure was the lowest when I was getting thrown the most. My anxiety was, I could deal with anything, man, the way I was getting whoo boom whipping. And you had to stay calm and you couldn't really plan your heart fall or your break fall. I was in life, I was like, there's nothing, nothing, this is nothing out here. But when I stopped, I noticed like, well, this is anxiety. I don't do this anymore, you know? After taking care of my mom with dementia, you know, like you can't control nothing. And you learn to accept more than to try to control anything. And when I stopped training a lot because of the injuries, I'm like, I see it immediately.

• 2:38:09Speaker 01

  You can see something is missing and I believe we should never let that warrior die in us. I don't care if you can just, if you gotta do Tai Chi, do something, do something.

• 2:38:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm looking forward to my Tai Chi days.

• 2:38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're gonna ask some jujitsu.

• 2:38:29Speaker 01

  You gonna call it Tai Jitsu? It's probably something, is it something Tai Jitsu?

• 2:38:33Jocko Willink?

  There probably is.

• 2:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dude, I always say do what you can.

• 2:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Do what you can.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I totally agree.

• 2:38:41Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next section, the father. Clearly, this is one we've been talking about. The father desires his children's trust and provides a safe space for them to receive love, learn from their mistakes and conquer their fears. Desires for his children's trust, that's a very important way of wording that. It doesn't say demand children's trust. You gotta earn that.

• 2:39:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:39:02Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you gotta earn that. And how do you earn it? You gotta give them some. And there's a little bit, there's not like, there's risk. Kids are always gonna do what you want them to do. Kids are gonna make mistakes. Kids are gonna do dumb things. And if you just, if you just snatch all their trust away from them, it's look, sometimes they deserve that. Sometimes, uh, sometimes they're gonna get, you know, grounded.

• 2:39:26Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:39:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, they're gonna lose privileges. Echo and I talk a lot about children and privileges. Cause when you start breaking down the privileges that your kids have.

• 2:39:35Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:39:37Jocko Willink?

  House, roof, food, phone, power, bedspread, pillow, clothing, like it's a long list. So when we start revoking some of those privileges, tighten things up real quick.

• 2:39:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And this needed, good reminder.

• 2:39:52Jocko Willink?

  Um, no, but this is just a, a, a great chapter. Um, and obviously the details that you put in here represent a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about today. Uh, and

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  The sun is the last one.

• 2:40:07Jocko Willink?

  The sun is the last one.

• 2:40:08Speaker 01

  I made that it's the shortest, but the most important because again, that took me into a battlefield where I couldn't just be masculine. I had to be nurturing, long-suffering, patience, uh, uh, more tender-hearted, and that was caring for my mother. And that was really the most important characteristic that God used to shape me into a comprehensive man. She didn't need a provider per se. She still needed some help with assistance. She had social security and some pension. Um, protecting, I would say maybe when, uh, bill collectors would call and she just, you know, couldn't afford it anymore. Or doctors, I remember sitting in one, uh, appointment, he literally was just pushing psych meds on her,

• 2:40:53Speaker 01

  psych meds on her. And I was like, do you know her backstory? He was like, no, uh, why do I need to know the backstory? I said, so you know exactly what to prescribe for if she, she needs prescription medication.

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  My mother, what she went through, he didn't know any of that. And that's when we wanted to get a psych evaluation. So that was the protector. But what my, my, my mother really needed during that time was the nurturer. Cause the nurturer to some extent is the protector as well. He's caring, he's, uh, combing her hair, things I would never have done, filing her fingernails, painting her fingernails, washing her up when the caregiver Kathy could. That's why I said we have to be more than masculine. Don't get rid of your masculinity, your attributes. Again, now you got another deficit. We've mastered that. Let's stretch a little further and grow a little further to become comprehensive as men. Then the world I know will be better because now we're not just limited.

• 2:41:52Speaker 01

  We're multifaceted instead of monofaceted, I guess, you know? And so that's why I closed with that chapter because, you know, no one wants to see their parents go through an illness like Alzheimer's or dementia or cancer. And then to be present and stay there, no matter how hard it is, no matter how late it is. How many times she forgets the answer you gave where you say it 20 more times without an attitude? That does something to a man. Yeah, it just, and it shaped me into who I am, who I am today.

• 2:42:29Speaker 01

  And what's interesting is that that video went viral, I think, three months after she passed. God knew what he was doing. It was like he was training me for what was coming. He says, "If I don't help you get your emotions in check, if I don't teach you how to be comprehensive, if I don't show you really what sacrifice is." Sacrifice isn't doing what needs to be done. It's doing what needs to be done that you don't want to do. And that's when I learned like, I got it now. And when she passed, a friend of mine, like a spiritual sister, she said, "You thought you were releasing her, but she was releasing you." And that hit like a ton of bricks.

• 2:43:11Speaker 01

  But she was like a sensei, my mother, that whole six, seven year journey. The phone calls, two in the morning. Mom isn't active, she's very combative, I need you to come by. And I gotta be at work in five hours. And I would leave angry at God, like, why is this happening? And he says, "Really, think back to when you were young and you would come home at three in the morning and mom would stay up all night and she didn't know if you made it and she lost a son already." And I say, you are just, and I would just go and take my medicine. And when I got the lesson, he uh, he freed mom and then mom freed me.

• 2:43:52Speaker 01

  You know, to be the man this moment demands and just walk in my calling unashamedly. And to give men a message that I didn't create, it came from God. And it's how he created us to be. One of the greatest warriors in the Bible was David. And he cried and prayed the majority of the Psalms. But he still was the king and the warrior. And that's all is man, we desires to be human and so.

• 2:44:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, like you said, you close out the book with that chapter. I want to close out the book from, for this episode here. You say this, this is actually, I'm closing out with something from the beginning. You say, take action. Throughout this book, I will encourage you not only to read, but also to take action. The only way you can change the man you are is to free yourself from pre-existing paradigms. So at each step of the journey together, choose to act on what you learn. Start now.

• 2:44:57Jocko Willink?

  So it's, you know, something that I didn't really mention about the book is um, you have like, like, like things throughout the book that are procedures. You know, it's like you said, it's an instruction thing. So you have some procedures, actions to follow in each of the chapters. Like here's the, here's the topic and here's some actions you can take. Whether it's cold plunging, whether it's making a budget, right? Like sit down and write or make a budget. Whether it's managing boundaries, setting up boundaries. Whether it's taking your family out to dine in a public place. That's a little bit above the standard of the normal place that you go to.

• 2:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Whether it's sitting down and doing drills for silent communication, communicating with your spouse without having to talk. So you got, and you explain how to do them. And then finally, there's a, a part of it that's throughout the book. And that is the the affirmations. It's like it's you call it a mirror drill. Did you make that up?

• 2:46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't know if I made it up. It's always science behind talking to yourself in the mirror. But for men, what I notice is that we have a hard time looking at ourselves without trying to shave or make ourselves look better, but just intently look into your own eyes and see something good. A lot of men's retreats I go on and the things that I would hear, the self condemning words like, "Look at you loser" and like, "Man, this is your normal talk to yourself." And so I wanted to put the mirror drill in there for you to not only look at yourself in an intimate way, like, "I'm not this bad guy. I may be wounded, but I'm not this bad guy and I can improve."

• 2:46:45Speaker 01

  But also to say the things that you won't do anymore. Like, one line in there is that, "I'm not an alpha male. I'm a human being. I'm bigger than that." Like, "I would not be limited by just that one definition." You know, respecting women, the gentleman chapter. You know, "I will respect my elders and those that are in need." Looking into your own eyes, telling that man in the mirror who you will become is a very powerful exercise. And that's why I put that at the end of each chapter.

• 2:47:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, each chapter has one and it has affirmations, thoughts to go through.

• 2:47:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:47:23Jocko Willink?

  So, really good. It's like, it's not just a book that you can read. It's got action steps that you can take to progress towards being or becoming the man that the moment demands. Uh, that's where we're at. What are you working on now? What's, what, what do you got in the hopper?

• 2:47:43Speaker 01

  Rest. That's what I want to work on.

• 2:47:48Speaker 01

  If I can, um, yeah, I would love to take a moment just to rest for um a month, but as I'm saying that um, it's like a pastor told me sometimes like airplanes, warplanes, they have to refuel in the air. Alright, and so that's just where I am right now. I would have to refuel in the air. Uh, my assistant has to take a break for a moment from the cave. I don't know if indefinite is the answer, but I have to

• 2:48:15Jocko Willink?

  Chris?

• 2:48:16Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah. He has a big, beautiful family and has to do some things, and so I may have to gear up and well, I will have to gear up and finish this group, and so I'm like that warplane, I'm have to refuel in the air, but when it's time for me to land, I'm gonna take full advantage of it. So that's my focus is those, the, the group that we have right now, forty seven boys, make sure they finish the rite of passage strong.

• 2:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Is the rite of passage for those forty seven boys? So the boys are in the program for four years?

• 2:48:48Speaker 01

  No, no, we, we, we've narrowed it down to eighteen months intense training. And then after that, they go into the other core curriculum far as the dining etiquette training, um grooming etiquette, financial literacy, speaking and communication, as well as community service and construction skills.

• 2:49:05Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks.

• 2:49:06Jocko Willink?

  So these guys got eighteen months, how far are they?

• 2:49:09Speaker 01

  Well, they're finishing, wow, um, October.

• 2:49:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:13Jocko Willink?

  And then it, what's that, what's like the final?

• 2:49:18Speaker 01

  That's good, I'm glad you asked that. They go off, uh, so retreat, a weekend retreat, no technology, and they're in the cabin with counselors and psychotherapists. And so it's faith centered, of course, but imagine the child, he gets to undo his trauma as a child. So for three days, they're in isolation and For at least eight hours a day, they're doing introspective work on where they are right now. I mean, it's powerful. We have one moment where the fathers come and they have to communicate how much they love their sons and how proud they are without saying a word, only with the eyes.

• 2:49:58Speaker 01

  When I say everyone is crying in a matter of like two minutes, it's powerful. Cause majority of times, our words can't really articulate what our hearts really wanna convey. But the eyes can. When you just sit and stare, you know, and it's powerful. So that's the last day. And the camaraderie, the way they join together and the issues they came with, they burn them and it's really powerful. We get do some psychodrama where they can go back and then we are praying. What was really said? Why wasn't that said?

• 2:50:37Speaker 01

  Just powerful. So imagine now you're undoing the trauma, you're helping them release it as middle schoolers. Now they're men with healed boys inside.

• 2:50:49Jocko Willink?

  Is there a, is there a physical component? So, you know, we get baptized. What's the physical component where we, we now say, you are a graduate?

• 2:51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's at the end. We have a ceremony as well. And it's actually during the weekend. After they finish all of the, the training, they go through a ceremony. We give them, actually it's the sling in the stone of David.

• 2:51:15Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really good. It's really powerful. And then they slay the giants they meant to slay that weekend. It's really good.

• 2:51:21Jocko Willink?

  And how's the trajectory of the boys that have graduated in the past?

• 2:51:26Speaker 01

  They're all performing great. You know, you have, you know, the stragglers, some that you have to watch a little more. Moms say, he's not doing this. Can you give him a call? But the majority are stellar, you know? Again, it stemmed not from their inability to perform academically. It was the inability to express what was really going on inside. And once you give them that freedom to do that, it's amazing what happens to these boys, you know? It's.

• 2:51:56Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's a, it's one of the greatest, it is the greatest work that I could do.

• 2:52:03Speaker 01

  I won't say it's my life's work yet, cause I'm nowhere near gone, but it's, uh, it's definitely to see boys' lives transformed and then their parents. I see why I stay on the spiritual attack a lot and because you're literally changing the trajectory of some kids' future. Yeah, and so you got forces of darkness that don't want that to happen and that comes with being a soldier for God, you know? It just, I don't, I'm not aiming to please anyone here, but the reason, him who sent me to complete the task that he sent me to do.

• 2:52:38Jocko Willink?

  Do any of the boys or have any of the boys come back to become instructors?

• 2:52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have, uh, like six peer instructors right now. Um, those are the ones you gave the rash cards to.

• 2:52:49Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 2:52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they would love to see you. Yeah, they're phenomenal young men and some still, you know, they do sports and still come back, but we have a good core of five or six that's faithful in there and, you know, in martial arts, look how many black belts are created and how many are teachers, you know? Like, you know, where are all the teachers? Like, friends of mine who run jiu-jitsu gyms, it's like, man, I can't get someone in here to sacrifice their time to do what I did in them, you know? You have maybe three or four faithles. As many students that's come through these, these doors, you should have to tell teachers, hey, I got too many teachers right now. And so it's always gonna be a shortage, you know?

• 2:53:33Speaker 01

  The harvest is plentiful, but the labor is a few. And so, um, I just pray to the Lord of Harvest to, uh, send me labors and he sends a few who are faithful. And I think it's, it's, it's gonna, if it was like that in his time, I think we're pretty much set with what it's gonna be like. It's gonna be the few, um, and I'm just thankful for those few. Um, they're testing right now. This is the first time I couldn't be at their fortitude test.

• 2:54:00Jocko Willink?

  Sorry.

• 2:54:01Speaker 01

  And that's, and no, it's not sorry, it's a blessing because... They're growing, you know, I hear the the praise report from yesterday, they did well, they pushed through.

• 2:54:09Jocko Willink?

  What's the fortitude test?

• 2:54:10Speaker 01

  Fortitude is the ground, you have to fight, you know, so it's building fortitude, that's what we teach in jujitsu. Yeah.

• 2:54:16Jocko Willink?

  So they have to go against a certain number of people, do certain skill sets?

• 2:54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, the drills, then you have to roll live and then full contact punching with boxing gloves while you're on the ground. Hip escape from under the standing attack, everything. And then you got a spiritual component as well where you have to recite all of the the answers to the questions that we taught you about fortitude. You know, one of them is that when Christ said that he that endures to the end shall be saved, so enduring to the end. Do you have what it takes to endure without complaining? And so that's what the fortitude uh module is about and to see the students grow in that. And I remember several of my teachers and coaches, when they couldn't make it, they purposefully stayed away so that their black belts could

• 2:55:04Speaker 01

  have that experience because you gotta give them a shot. If you're always there, how will they grow? You gotta let them grow. And so it was men, God is like, I need you to be in this space, you know, transition and move forward. And uh so yeah, this was a blessing. This is how he got me away. And I always wanted to have a sit down conversation with you, man. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:55:27Jocko Willink?

  You and me both.

• 2:55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Uh, all right, Zach, get us up to speed?

• 2:55:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm good.

• 2:55:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so people that are looking for you, I think we went through this before, MrJasonWilson.com. And then you're on Twitter, Instagram, at MrJasonOWilson. And then you're also on YouTube at MrJasonOWilson and Facebook, Jason Wilson. And for the for the nonprofit, for the charity, for the cave, it's the union spelled the Y-union.org.

• 2:56:03Speaker 01

  Or it could be a little easier, savingboys.com.

• 2:56:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so we got a new one, savingboys.com.

• 2:56:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56:10Jocko Willink?

  All right, savingboys.com and then on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, it's at cave313.

• 2:56:19Jocko Willink?

  And then Facebook is Cave of a Dome Transformational Academy.

• 2:56:23Speaker 01

  You know why you were talking, we were talking about scaling a lot this episode. That's why I called it Cave 313 because hopefully it'll be another area called.

• 2:56:33Jocko Willink?

  Cave 619. Cave 858.

• 2:56:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56:38Jocko Willink?

  808.

• 2:56:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56:43Jocko Willink?

  Awesome stuff.

• 2:56:44Speaker 01

  Let me, let me come out there. Let me be the, let me start that one up out in Hawaii.

• 2:56:50Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 2:56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a question. So I need your opinion on this one.

• 2:56:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:56:56Speaker 02

  So in the spirit of what, what, what was it called? The, wearing the right uniform for the right battle?

• 2:57:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:57:01Speaker 02

  Or the right armor for the right battle?

• 2:57:03Speaker 01

  Right, yes.

• 2:57:04Speaker 02

  Let's say hypothetically, as a jujitsu person, I've, let's say I have a black belt that I've had since the day I got my black belt. Let's say I've had that black belt for, I don't know, 25 years or so, right? We'll say. So it's real old and.

• 2:57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:57:18Speaker 02

  And then in the future, I get a brand new black belt. That's like super like made really well, really good looking black belt, you know, made by honorable people, the whole deal. But it's brand new, right?

• 2:57:34Speaker 02

  Is it a violation or is it directly in line with the right uniform for the right battle? If I save that new black belt just for media appearances and I keep my old one for the action? Is that, is that right or is that wrong?

• 2:57:48Speaker 01

  Man, this, this is crazy. Uh, one of my friends, Tyrone Gooden, he's a Machado Black Belt Jiu Jitsu. Uh, when we were working on just marketing his gym, I was like, man, I appreciate, trust my belt is raggedy. I get it. I said, but for this picture, let's do a new one. For these, holding all of these awards you got, let's do the new one. So you're right on point. Yeah, definitely.

• 2:58:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:12Speaker 02

  So that might mean I guess.

• 2:58:13Speaker 01

  So what? Is it, you setting me up for something?

• 2:58:15Speaker 02

  No, I'm just wondering.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  Jocko, what you think?

• 2:58:18Speaker 02

  Various opinions on the matter is what I'm saying.

• 2:58:20Jocko Willink?

  I have a, I have a black belt. I didn't get it 25 years ago, but I did get it. Um, oh geez.

• 2:58:28Speaker 02

  25 years?

• 2:58:29Jocko Willink?

  20 years ago.

• 2:58:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:58:30Jocko Willink?

  2005.

• 2:58:31Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 2:58:32Jocko Willink?

  And I've had the same black belt. For 20 years and it's old and it's weathered and it looks pretty cool.

• 2:58:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:41Jocko Willink?

  But it is definitely, but so Origin USA, which is a company that makes Jiu Jitsu Gis. All in America, 100% American product made from American materials. We don't have any slave labor. We were not paying communists. We employ people and they earn a living and they learn a skill and it's awesome. And we started making Jiu Jitsu belts. And so the boys sent me a beautiful Origin USA black belt. And we were just deciding, you know, we were kind of discussing what to do with it. What debating? We were debating? Was that a debate?

• 2:59:20Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if I remember correctly, you chose.

• 2:59:24Jocko Willink?

  I haven't chosen anything yet.

• 2:59:25Speaker 02

  Okay, it felt like you were really unhappy with my opinion on the matter.

• 2:59:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you said media.

• 2:59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, media black belt. It's like it still gets the glory. You see what I'm saying? But it like the newness and the, you know, and the.

• 2:59:38Speaker 01

  But what's interesting, I did a, a ad for Tyrone where I had him, uh, hold his black belt coiled. And it was weathered and torn and it said over 20 years as a black belt. And that's, that's a powerful imagery right there. So it depends, you know, that was the right armor for that fight. But for media, um, for the novice, you know.

• 3:00:01Jocko Willink?

  When you see, when you see a media, when you see someone that's wearing an old black belt though, don't you think?

• 3:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, for sure. Absolutely.

• 3:00:09Jocko Willink?

  You just think that's more respect is more warranted on the mats.

• 3:00:12Speaker 02

  I would say the respect would be the wrong word. I would say, um, like I said, there are varying opinions on this matter. And I, I respect both of them to be honest with you, but I think in the spirit of right uniform for the right battle. If there's gonna be two different belts of just such polarizing appearances. You know, and one is gonna be chose for one and one's gonna be chose for other. Boom. That's the way I see it.

• 3:00:38Speaker 01

  I just like it for pitchers and then, you know, you're trying to get recruit more students and parents. They don't know what that weather belt represents. Like, man, they must be poor here, you know?

• 3:00:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:00:50Jocko Willink?

  If we really wanna go deep on this?

• 3:00:51Speaker 02

  Yes, we do.

• 3:00:52Jocko Willink?

  If I'm wearing my black gi, I could wear my old belt, cause it's like contrasting. And if we're in a white gi, I wear my

• 3:01:00Speaker 01

  That crispy black belt.

• 3:01:02Speaker 02

  I see you. I see you.

• 3:01:04Jocko Willink?

  So that's, maybe that's the protocol.

• 3:01:06Speaker 02

  Maybe. That's the working protocol.

• 3:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, what kind of protocol is it that I want my ego to be gratified by people seeing my black belch?

• 3:01:14Speaker 02

  Just in general?

• 3:01:15Jocko Willink?

  In general, yeah. Maybe I need to be more humble.

• 3:01:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so and this is a whole nother issue, but I'm glad you brought it up. So, you know how like, cause there's two kind of philosophies and sometimes there's some overlap. You know how some people say, hey, it doesn't matter the belt. It's like, it's just a matter of you learning and gaining skills and like all this stuff. And the belt is just almost like an ego thing. And actually could be, could be dragged into the realm of, it's kind of a like a hierarchy subjugation thing. Like where the black belts, we stand up here. You guys have the lower belts, lower belts. Like, what do you mean? You know, so it could be that too. You see what I'm saying? But I think the real value in the belt is almost like a standard of reminder to tell you like, hey, like you have to maintain a certain like level to yourself.

• 3:01:57Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 3:01:58Speaker 02

  And it's like a reminder and you get to wear it, just like, just like anything else. See what I'm saying? Like any kind of, I don't know. I guess any kind of uniform, really, you know?

• 3:02:07Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 3:02:08Speaker 02

  Like, you know, when you play football or whatever, you have your number. And a lot of people, they stick with that number, you know? And then if they do really, really well, they retire the numbers like a thing, you know?

• 3:02:18Speaker 01

  It's interesting when you talked about those shoulder pads I had on in the last episode, how I missed the catch.

• 3:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:23Speaker 01

  Cause the ball went past my hands and hit those, the chest and the shoulder pads. I had those on to impress the cheerleaders.

• 3:02:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause you wanted to look bigger.

• 3:02:32Speaker 01

  And so there's the ego again. Yeah.

• 3:02:35Speaker 02

  I played receiver two, by the way.

• 3:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. You need to short the smallest shoulder pads. I had the linebacker shoulder pads on from the eighties. Okay, the ones that like you were gladiator. Yeah, them are the ones I had on, man.

• 3:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Any other questions?

• 3:02:51Speaker 02

  One last thing, I brought it up while I'm kind of on break or whatever. So Lawrence Fishburne.

• 3:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 3:02:55Speaker 02

  Has a movie which happens to be my favorite movie of Lawrence Fishburne. Not as well known as like The Matrix and stuff, even though I do like The Matrix.

• 3:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Are we not going to talk about Apocalypse Now here?

• 3:03:04Speaker 02

  No, not Apocalypse Now.

• 3:03:06Speaker 01

  I hear that, yeah.

• 3:03:07Speaker 02

  It's called Always Outnumbered.

• 3:03:09Speaker 01

  I never heard of that.

• 3:03:09Speaker 02

  Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned. Didn't get like the promotion, you know, all this stuff, but in my opinion, one of his best, in my opinion, it's my favorite movie of him.

• 3:03:20Speaker 02

  But it's about basically he uh, he gets, he just gets out of jail for some heinous charges or whatever, and he just gets out of jail. He has to rebuild his life in like South Central. And he's struggling with the old him, but he's freaking, you know, he's bent on really forging the right path, but he's struggling, hardcore struggling. And then um, so he's trying to get a job, he's trying to hold the job, but he's kind of, he's kind of mean a little bit, you know, so it's like you kind of sympathize with him, but you're like, bro, you can't be doing that. You know, you're rubbing people the wrong way, kind of a thing. And then kind of out of nowhere, like this kid comes into his life. And now he has to kind of mentor this kid because the kid comes from, you know, a bad background, but the kid wants to do the right thing, but he's in the wrong path thing. So it ends up being um, kind of like he's trying to rediscover a new life for himself and this kid or whatever. It turns out it's really good, really well done.

• 3:04:03Speaker 01

  How old is this movie?

• 3:04:04Speaker 02

  Nineteen ninety-eight, if I'm not mistaken.

• 3:04:08Speaker 01

  I'm gonna write that down.

• 3:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:10Jocko Willink?

  Always Outnumbered.

• 3:04:11Speaker 02

  Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned.

• 3:04:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's both.

• 3:04:13Speaker 02

  Or it could be just the one. I always knew it as the one. Yeah, there's a lot of people, like Bill Cobb's in that. I think Natalie Cole's in that. Isaiah Washington's in there.

• 3:04:21Speaker 01

  Was he, he was the, the main actor?

• 3:04:23Speaker 02

  He's the main guy. Socrates Fortlow.

• 3:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was your favorite movie.

• 3:04:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I've seen it many, many times, yeah. It's really good.

• 3:04:32Speaker 01

  I'm gonna ask him about that.

• 3:04:33Speaker 02

  Worth the watch. Oh, yeah.

• 3:04:36Speaker 02

  But yeah, good to meet you, sir.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  You too, man.

• 3:04:38Speaker 02

  How'd it go? Awesome.

• 3:04:39Jocko Willink?

  Jason, any closing thoughts?

• 3:04:41Speaker 01

  No, man. Thank you for having me, man. Long time coming. Appreciate you. Uh, keep doing what you're doing, man. It's uh, it's affecting a lot of people. More than you, you know. You know a lot, but it's more than you know, man.

• 3:04:54Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate it, man. And back at you. And thanks for joining us today. Thanks for sharing all your experiences and, and your lessons learned. And uh, you know, thank you for what you're doing right now. To help so many people, children and adults to to find the path of the most high and move them toward the light.

• 3:05:12Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

• 3:05:16Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Jason Wilson has left the building.

• 3:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Leaving us with a lot to think about, leaving us with a lot to work on, a lot of ways to improve mentally, spiritually, physically.

• 3:05:33Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 3:05:34Jocko Willink?

  To become a comprehensive man.

• 3:05:38Jocko Willink?

  The physical part, we're working out.

• 3:05:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:05:41Jocko Willink?

  We're training jujitsu.

• 3:05:42Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling.

• 3:05:46Speaker 02

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 3:05:47Jocko Willink?

  And yep.

• 3:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Lifting.

• 3:05:50Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 3:05:51Jocko Willink?

  Lifting, as you like to say. Running. Hey, as you're doing all that stuff, you're gonna need fuel. We recommend you heard review,

• 3:06:00Jocko Willink?

  impromptu review.

• 3:06:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:06:01Jocko Willink?

  On the last podcast.

• 3:06:03Speaker 02

  In real time.

• 3:06:03Jocko Willink?

  From Jason Wilson, real time.

• 3:06:06Jocko Willink?

  Drinking hydrate, he was drinking. Loving it. Check out jockofuel.com. By the way, you can text to jocko fuel to two four six seven two.

• 3:06:17Jocko Willink?

  And I'll send you like some voicemails.

• 3:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:20Jocko Willink?

  Get in the game with that one. So check it out, jockofuel.com. We got protein, we got energy, we got milk, we got hydration, we got

• 3:06:31Jocko Willink?

  joint warfare, super krill oil, time, we got all time war, we got everything that you need. Creatine. How's your creatine?

• 3:06:38Speaker 02

  Consistent.

• 3:06:40Jocko Willink?

  How many, how much a day?

• 3:06:41Speaker 02

  Oh, what, five to 10 grams.

• 3:06:44Jocko Willink?

  That's not consistent.

• 3:06:45Speaker 02

  It is.

• 3:06:45Jocko Willink?

  Consistent would be five grams or 10 grams.

• 3:06:47Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, every day. Well, because I lost my scoop.

• 3:06:52Speaker 02

  That's a whole nother story.

• 3:06:53Jocko Willink?

  Which we don't want to hear.

• 3:06:54Speaker 02

  No, you don't want to hear. But so I use like a, you know, like a plastic spoon. So I just estimate it. And I overestimate rather than underestimate.

• 3:07:02Jocko Willink?

  You're probably doing 14.

• 3:07:03Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 3:07:04Jocko Willink?

  That's 18.

• 3:07:05Speaker 02

  It is what it is.

• 3:07:06Jocko Willink?

  Get on creatine.

• 3:07:07Speaker 02

  Every day, though, every day. That's why I say consider every day.

• 3:07:09Jocko Willink?

  Get on the creatine.

• 3:07:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07:12Jocko Willink?

  Also, we have this stuff available.

• 3:07:17Jocko Willink?

  At Walmart, we have it available at Wawa. We have it available at Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanafords, where Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeford and Shop Right, HEB down in Tejas. Have you seen the displays in Texas at HEB? They're legit. Meyer. So if you're up in the Jason Wilson area, you go to Meyer and get yourself some. Wegmans out there on the East Coast, Harris Teeter, Publix, renowned Publix down in Florida, rocking. Lifetime Fitness, Shields, Dick's Sporting Goods. Add it to the list. So we're getting out there. If you need it, you can get it. Jocko Fuel. Go and check it out. Also,

• 3:08:02Jocko Willink?

  originusa.com because we're training Jiu-Jitsu. Gi, no Gi. Both. We need to wear a Jiu-Jitsu uniform. We want to wear one that is American made. That's not made with slavery. That is not made by ruining the environment. So go to originusa.com. We also have jeans. We also have t-shirts. We also have hoodies, which I'm going to be putting on here shortly. We have shorts. We have workout gear. We have hunt gear. We had everything that you need. Boots. Did you get a new pair of boots yet?

• 3:08:36Speaker 02

  Not since the last one, no.

• 3:08:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay. The new boots are awesome.

• 3:08:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is that the one you had on the other day when we were making a video?

• 3:08:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

• 3:08:43Speaker 02

  Very luxurious.

• 3:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Very, they're epic. Epic boots. So we got everything that you need. Made 100% in America, Maine and North Carolina, from 100% American materials. OriginUSA.com. Check that out.

• 3:09:00Speaker 02

  Also Jocko's store called Jocko's Store. So Jocko's Store.com, right? Discipline is where the merch is. What's new at Jocko's Store?

• 3:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Tell me about it.

• 3:09:09Speaker 02

  Before I get to what's new, let me tell you what's existing, has been existing. Discipline equals freedom stuff. Shirts, hoodies, some hats on there, some shorts on there too. By the way, don't forget about those summers coming up. Maybe not soon, but kinda soon. Just keep that in mind. The Shirt Locker subscription shirt scenario, new design every month. This month.

• 3:09:32Speaker 02

  This one equals freedom instead of drinking. That's essentially my little impromptu working title.

• 3:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's interesting.

• 3:09:40Speaker 02

  If you go on, if you click on shirt locker, you can kind of see the, the sneak peek.

• 3:09:44Jocko Willink?

  What's the sneak peek? Give us a verbal.

• 3:09:46Speaker 02

  Verbal. It's like instead of dos ekis, it's like, oh, X display equals for.

• 3:09:51Jocko Willink?

  Got it. See? Look at you.

• 3:09:52Speaker 02

  Hey, man. It's good. Anyway, yeah.

• 3:09:54Jocko Willink?

  That sounded very uncool in your initial description and now real cool after you explained it.

• 3:09:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think a lot of it is in the execution.

• 3:10:01Jocko Willink?

  For sure. It sounds like you executed properly. My, my good, my good man.

• 3:10:06Speaker 02

  So far, so good. So anyway, yes, all in Jock's are what's new? Okay. I've been, I've been talking about socks for a long time. We finally got socks. That's new. Um, also this probably within the next, I don't know, four weeks. We have new discipline equals freedoms shirts, new design.

• 3:10:23Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 3:10:24Speaker 02

  Anyway, um, there's this place on the bottom of, of the, uh, the website. You can sign up, put your email in there. So you can be on the list. So you get informed when these new things kind of pop up or whatever. So you get first crack at them. You know, a lot of times we can't be ordering like millions and millions of these things. So, you know, in the event of them being in limited supply, be sure that you get kind of the, the head of the line scenario, you know, through email. So yeah, it's all like choco store.com. It's true.

• 3:10:49Jocko Willink?

  Also check out Colorado craft beef.com and primalbeef.com. Awesome steak from awesome companies, awesome people. Colorado craft beef has beef sticks that are like a Snickers bar for life. They're good for you. They taste good. They give you what you need.

• 3:11:09Jocko Willink?

  That's a Colorado craft beef.com. And then primal beef has, uh, jerky now. That's just freaking legit. Primalbeef.com. Check out their jerky. Look, get burgers, get the, the beef franks. Get the steaks. Get some of that jerky too, because it's fire, as the young kids say.

• 3:11:30Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jock on the ground, subscribe to the YouTube channels. Psychological Warfare, you can check that out. Flipsidecanvas.com. Also, books. So you heard from Jason Wilson today. He's got three books. The first one's Cry Like a Man. Cry Like a Man, that's the, kind of the, the origin story. Battle Cry, his first guidebook, and then finally, this most recent book, which we covered today, The Man the Moment Demands. All those are by Jason Wilson. Great books. Please check them out. Give them as gifts. They will help people. Also, I've written a bunch of books, including a bunch of kids' books, which I obviously do a really bad job of telling people about. So, I'm telling you right now, if you know a kid, any kid,

• 3:12:14Jocko Willink?

  between the ages of three and 38, get them the Warrior Kid books. It will make their lives better. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. You heard me talk some leadership principles over the past couple podcasts. We put those principles to work at Echelon Front, making companies better through leadership. So go to echelonfront.com for that. We also have a bunch of events that you can come and attend. Everything from the muster, which is a leadership conference, to the FTX to council to battlefield. Got a bunch of awesome events. So check those out at echelonfront.com. We also have online training.

• 3:12:57Jocko Willink?

  The online training can be found at extremeownership.com, and this is training for leadership skills. And you might think, well, I'm not a general in the army, or an admiral in the Navy, or the chief operating officer of some big company. I don't need leadership skills. Actually, you do. You heard us talking about them today. And the last podcast with Jason Wilson. You interact with other people, including your wife, including your husband, including your kids, including your coworkers, including your friends and your peers. The people you train with, if you interact with those people, which you do, you're in a leadership position. So we want to teach you the skills of leadership. So go to extremeownership.com to check those out.

• 3:13:40Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mamali. She's got an incredible charity organization. And if you want to donate, or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out heroesandhorses.org. This is Micah Fink's organization.

• 3:14:03Jocko Willink?

  I want to go up there and visit with him. It's up in Montana. Takes our veterans up into the woods. Where they go through. A cleansing of the soul.

• 3:14:17Jocko Willink?

  That's heroes and horses.org. Jimmy May has an organization, beyond the brotherhood.org. And also you've got the union.org. This is Jason Wilson's organization, the why? Union.org. Also, savingboys.com. Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, at cave313. Also, if you want to connect with Jason Wilson on the interwebs, MrJasonWilson.com and Twitter, Instagram, he's Mr. Jason O. Wilson. So check those out. For us, you can find me at jocko.com. You can also find both of us on social media. Do you have some kind of a interwebs website?

• 3:15:01Speaker 02

  Nothing actionable. You know, you're gonna go there and you'll be like, whatever. It's like, you know.

• 3:15:05Jocko Willink?

  So don't worry about it. So if we're looking for you or me. They can find me with jocko.com, but they can find you at Echo Charles on the social media activities. I'm at jocko willink on the social media activities. Just be careful. Cause don't let those activities turn into an addiction. Which is what happens. Thanks once again to Jason Wilson for coming out here and spending all this time talking through his lessons learned, his protocols. Outstanding. Much appreciated. Thank you, Jason. For continuing to help people around the world. Also, thanks to the men and women of our armed forces who are out there on the front lines. Currently. Protecting us and our way of life.

• 3:15:48Jocko Willink?

  Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all the other first responders who are doing the same thing. Protecting us right here at home. Thank you all. And everyone else out there.

• 3:16:05Jocko Willink?

  In the book Battle Cry by Jason Wilson. He refers to a quote that encapsulates a powerful idea and that idea is. You must be broken to become whole.

• 3:16:22Jocko Willink?

  And I think there's two aspects to that. Number one, if you want to become whole, you gotta break yourself. That means you gotta push yourself. That's how you become stronger, smarter, better. That's how you become whole. I think it's also important to think about the fact that the world's gonna push you.

• 3:16:42Jocko Willink?

  The world is gonna push you and break you.

• 3:16:49Jocko Willink?

  But that activity is what makes us strong and powerful and whole in the end. So if you want to be a comprehensive human,

• 3:17:06Jocko Willink?

  in a sense, in the end, we must go for broke.

• 3:17:15Jocko Willink?

  Till next time, this is Echo and Jocko.