96: How to Introduce Extreme Ownership to Your Boss. How to Deal With Your Spouse's Trivial Issues. Leading People Out of Complacency. Strength and Weakness.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:34 - How to introduce "Extreme Ownership" to a failing boss. 0:07:13 - Respecting people who don't have discipline. 0:16:35 - How to get a team member to pull their weight if they become complacent. 0:24:23 - As a Teacher, how do you effectively demonstrate extreme ownership with students? 0:50:05 - When you experience darkness on the job, how to deal with your spouse and be supportive when dealing with their trivial problems compared to your serious ones. 1:00:53 - As a leader: Calling out poor performance VS Extreme Ownership. 1:08:12 - Is it normal to get bruises, cuts, and scrapes from Jiu Jitsu from training partners going rough? 1:34:53 - How to get "noticed" to be selected to be put into a leadership position. 1:40:44 - Can you be weak and strong at the same time? 1:43:53 - Support JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Origin Brand Apparel http://www.originmaine.com, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 2:04:56 - Closing Gratitude Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 96 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  And we are going to roll right into some Q and A from

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  People of the interwebs.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, they're not actually of the interwebs. They're from

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Right, everyday life, but through the interweb.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  Is where we receive questions.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Yes. It's been awhile, right? Since Q and A.

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  It has been awhile since Q and A.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Alright, well, first question.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Recently, at my job, we got a new supervisor, one who happens to be retired Army after 20 years. He and I had a pretty heavy run in to which resulted in getting HR involved. The end result was that I would not be written up for what he claimed I was doing. He tried to make an example out of me almost as soon as he got here, assuming I was easy to He assumed I was an easy target. Anyways, to the point, even though he and I had a falling out, I'd still like to see the guy succeed at his job and become a great leader. After listening to your podcast over the last month, I'm making an effort to improve our relationship at this job instead of just avoiding the man. I've recently purchased your book, Extreme Ownership.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  How would you suggest I present this book to my new supervisor and read, or to read, without him feeling as if I'm belittling him? As to say he needs work on his leadership. I think he could benefit from it greatly.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  Good question.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  It's actually a question I've answered on here before, but I'll answer it again because I even learn when I repeat.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  This is my latest version of what I tell people when they're in the situation. Yeah, updated version.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  Cause you get better at things. You figure out better ways to overcome challenges. Especially when you're presented with the same challenge over and over again, which I kind of am.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  Some challenges like this one. So here's what, here's what you do. You give it to them and you say, you know, hey boss, or hey person. Hey, I got this book and I'm trying to really emulate the principles that are in this book. It really hit me. And I was wondering if I could ask you a favor. If you could just look through this book, kind of see what the principles are. And then if you see me falling out of line with the principles that are in this book, let me know. So I can fix them. Basic things like if I'm not taking ownership of problems, if I'm, if I'm not keeping things simple.

• 2:41Jocko Willink?

  If I'm not supporting other people around me, covering and moving for them, just let me know. That's all I'm asking because I'm, I'm really trying to do a better job. Could you do that for me? So then the person says, well, yeah, okay, fine. You know, and then they read the book. And when they read the book, sure, there's a chance that they'll be thinking like, oh, this book is about everyone else and it's not about me.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? That's possible.

• 3:02Jocko Willink?

  There is also a chance, a higher chance that they read the book and go, oof. I, I make a lot of excuses and I blame other people all the time. I'm probably not doing a great job as a leader. And that might be subconscious. I see that sometimes now where people are subconsciously making adjustments. Because they don't want to admit that they're the person that's, that, that the problem. They don't want to admit that they're the problem. So they make these little adjustments. Kind of subconsciously and other people will tell me that the boss is like changing, oh yeah, they're, they're changing their game. They won't admit it. But they are changing their game. So that's what you hope for is that they do, they go through that trans, that transformation from, you know, not taking ownership and treating people bad and not trying to build relationships and all that stuff.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  That makes them into a bad leader, into taking ownership, building relationships, covering, moving, keeping things simple, all the stuff that makes you a good leader. That's what the hope is. Now,

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  there's also a chance that this person's going to hold a grudge. Right? We, we, we gotta deal with that. And I'll tell you, I was recently talking to someone that had, stepped on the toes of another business, another division inside their business. Another sales division and you know, sales people are sort of known for being protective and aggressive, like protective of their territory. Well, this guy kind of stepped into their territory a little bit, caused some bad, bad vibes. Giant rift and he's like, you know, what should I do? You know, I, I feel like all this animosity now. And it's one of those times where I just said to myself, well, what would I actually do if I was in that situation? How would I try and get this problem solved?

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, what I would do is walk up to the person who I stepped into their territory and caused problems and I'd say, hey. Hey, I wanted to tell you, I totally was out of line when I stepped into your territory. That was completely my fault. And, you know, I was just got target fixation, which is bad. I didn't talk to you, which is bad. I stepped into your world, which is bad. And I left a disaster. And I'm sorry. That's that, all that stuff, everything that I just said, all my fault. And I want to let you know that I completely recognize it. And number one, anything I can do to try and redeem that and make it up and make you realize that? And anything I can do to support and help you move forward?

• 5:21Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I will not let that happen again. I just want to let you know that. So boom, just step up, be humble, apologize. And say, hey, can you, what can I do to help you? What can I do to support you? That's where I would go with these, with this question. And then a sort of a, an addition to that question.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like, you know, when you, when you give your boss the book, right? And be like, hey, this is what I'm doing. Is that kind of like when you, when you get, you know, like if somebody has bad, bad breath? And then you put in gum, you know? You eat some gum and you say, hey, you want some gum?

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's very similar. You just break out the gum. You know, I always like to do this, you know, just to make sure. I always like to have a piece of gum just to make sure, you know? Not offend, oh, you want one? Oh, yeah, you can have, you might want to take two. Oh, check.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Cause you think, you're like, oh, wait. Yeah, shoot, what if I had bad breath? And, oh, let me, let me handle this before anyone can smell it.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  Check. Oh, I, you know, that just reminded me, because I laughed.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  It just reminded me of two things I just saw on the, on the interwebs. One was a person that said something negative about, about the podcast or the book. And he said, look, this guy should just smile. He doesn't, he never smiles and anything. And someone, of course, was like, you might want to listen to his podcast because he laughs a lot. And then someone else said, this guy should just pick up a guitar. He doesn't, he doesn't know anything about freedom else. And someone else got on and said, he does play guitar. So, yeah, cool. Haters, not, not, do a little fact checking with your hate.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  That's all I'm saying. If you want to throw some hate around, just do a little, a little fact checking. Cause we're over here laughing. We're playing the Git Box from time to time.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  So you call it the Git Box?

• 7:07Jocko Willink?

  Git Box.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I don't think I've ever heard that before.

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta be old school on that one.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Alright, next question. Jacob, do you still respect people without discipline?

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Interesting, okay, so first of all, my baseline as a person is to respect people. That's my baseline. Now, that is not the same as something we've talked about before, which is, that doesn't mean I expect a lot from them, okay? You see the big difference there? I respect people, hey, I respect you, I respect what you're doing. That doesn't mean I expect that you're gonna be humble, or you're gonna be hardworking, or you're gonna be brave, or you're gonna even be a slightly decent human being. I don't expect any of that, but...

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  But, and let me phrase this carefully. That doesn't mean I don't treat them with respect. Now, you notice I just changed this?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  It's not just about, "I actually respect you." It's, "I'm gonna treat you with respect." There's a big difference, right? I'm gonna treat everyone with respect. But, as far as actually respecting someone, um, no, no, I'm not just automatically respecting people. Now, I'll treat them with respect because I don't know who they are. I don't know what struggles they've had in their life. I don't know what they've been through. I don't know that, so I'm gonna treat them with respect. And it's very similar, like a jujitsu perspective. You don't know, okay, jujitsu perspective, no gi, right? You don't know how good someone is.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  No belt, yeah.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  You don't, you don't. And, and this is another thing. When you, when you know how good someone is, and let's say you're better than them. If you really understand jujitsu, you realize that you're better than them, cuz you've been training longer. Fundamentally, right? Of course, are there some people that are just amazing athletes? Sure, sure. But 98% of the people, you've just been training longer than them. Or you just were born a lot bigger than them, or a lot stronger than them. But, you look at them and say, "You know what? If this person, if we flipped this around, and this person been training longer, I'd be the one getting crushed."

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:18Jocko Willink?

  So, there's that. Now, so, so yes, I treat people with respect. And, my, my attitude is generally to say, "Look, I don't know what they've been through, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna treat them that way."

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, when someone just throws away their potential because they lack discipline, that kinda bothers me. I mean, it doesn't mean that I don't respect them, but I am definitely disappointed. And in conditions where there is a gross lack of discipline, just a gross lack of discipline, I do move beyond just mere disappointment and I do get into the realm of I do not respect that person because they lack discipline. So, there you go.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  So it's like a respect meter kinda thing and you're starting at the baseline?

• 10:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I always start with treating everyone with respect.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:18Jocko Willink?

  Gonna treat everyone with respect.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't, you don't know who you're disrespecting.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  Right? Who are you disrespecting? I mean, you could be disrespecting, first of all, you could be disrespecting someone that is been through a lot that maybe you should learn from. You could be, you know, you're walking down the street and you disrespect, you could disrespect someone that's a psychopath with a gun.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  And now you're in a shootout with them. People are getting, you know, I mean, you're probably gonna win if you train hard, but still.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  Innocence might be, you know, bystanders. You just don't know who you're, you just don't know who people are.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  And that's a good lesson to learn from jiu-jitsu men. You don't know how good people are. You don't know, not just, not just how well they train, but what have they been through that day?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  In their life.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:01Jocko Willink?

  You know, you meet some people in the wrong day and that could be really a real problem.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  So just be careful. And you know what's funny? I was thinking about this. That being said, my, uh, my buddy from Scotland, his name is Colin, and he sent me a text the other day and he was listening to the podcast and he's a very avid listener of the podcast. And he said, he said, finally after 94 podcasts, I understand what that being said means.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  And he's right. He said that being said is...

• 11:37Jocko Willink?

  Basically, the verbalization of the dichotomy of leadership and of life and of things. And of the world. Because that being said is when you recognize that one side of things is balanced by another side of things.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  And it's true in everything there is, right? Like, you could say jujitsu is the best martial art. That being said, if someone wrestled in college and they're 262 pounds and you're 145 pounds, it's gonna be problematic for you. And you could say it about leadership. Hey, it's good to be aggressive and assertive. That being said, if you're overly aggressive, no one's gonna wanna work for you. So it applies across the board. It's those opposing forces. So, I think it's a good tool to use when you think about things. What is the other side of the argument? What is the other side of the situation?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:29Jocko Willink?

  And knowing and studying the other side will make you understand everything better.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  That being said, it can be very difficult to understand anything.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Very hard. That's life, really, right? So the no expectation, and I think we talked, I know we talked about this before, but you say, I don't have any expectations.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  I have low expect, very low expectations.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  So even low expectation, a lot of times, people will take that as like, you expect low performance out of me, you know, which is different.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. You are correct.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, cuz that essentially means that you do have expectations. They're just like negative, you know, I expect like low performance out of you. I expect you to do the wrong thing or something like that.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  I, my expectations are low, my hope is high.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  I hope that you are, you know, hardworking, very diligent, squared away, human being, that's...

• 13:22Speaker 01

  So technically, so obviously, you know the difference between expecting poor performance or just having a clean slate, no real expectations, and I'm gonna take things the way they come. Obviously, you know the difference there. So what would you call when someone says, "I have low expectations of you"?

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  I.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Sounds like they expect you to do junk.

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that does. That sounds bad. I have low expectations.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Right. So but when you put your hands up and say, hey, no expectations.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  That sounds different.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So I guess, I guess my expectations are closer to the no expectations.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't expect negativity.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  But I don't expect much either.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  Human beings, I like to set a low bar.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Right, right. And then let the.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  And be pleasantly impressed.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. So it's kind of like, it'll be expectation or respect or and the respect meter is kind of at this cool acceptable baseline.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Right? Just fundamental stuff.

• 14:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, fundamental stuff.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  You know, don't, you know, whatever, you know, don't step on my feet on purpose the first time you meet me kind of thing. And then with every little action, big or small, with every experience with that person, the the the meter either goes up or it goes down. And it depends on the violation or the whatever the element that's going to impress you, right? So let's say someone, it's weird now. You know how like we get impressed by like stuff that it seems like you're supposed to do?

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  Did you just say we? Because are you talking about me too?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  I don't know. That's a total assumption. But like, okay, are you impressed with people who keep their word?

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  That's an example. So you're supposed to keep your word. That's what your word is. You keep it, you know? That's kind of what the whole defining characteristic of.

• 15:03Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying, you're saying some other person might say, well, I just expect people to keep their word.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  You're supposed to do that. You know, I remember like how Chris Rock on his little stand up thing, he'd be like, oh, yeah, people want like credit for stuff you're supposed to do. Like, he's like, I take care of my kids. It's like, yeah, you're supposed to take care of your kids, you know, kind of thing. But when you think about it, are you impressed with someone who takes good care of their kids? You kind of are, right?

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  But that's not to say you expect them not to, though.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Really, it's weird.

• 15:33Jocko Willink?

  You just, you just have what I'm saying, which is no expect, close leaning towards no expectations.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  And then when you experience it, you kind of fall on one side of it, you know, whether it be like, yes, that makes me happy. It makes me happy that you're doing what you're supposed to do. That's what it is right there, right?

• 15:50Jocko Willink?

  Pretty much.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Like when you showed up today.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  I was happy.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  Wait.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  You were ahead of time. Well, yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  When I showed up and saw you here, I was happy you were here.

• 16:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  But you're supposed to be here. We agreed we were gonna be here.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Right. But I was happy.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  That's cool, I guess.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Well, I wasn't.

• 16:11Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you're just stoked to see me.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  I wasn't impressed, but I was happy.

• 16:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. Anyway.

• 16:21Jocko Willink?

  I don't even know what you're getting the bottom to, but maybe we could do another question.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Just your expectations and respect, you know, really the whole, the meticulous and specific dynamics of that. That's what we're going for there.

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  I think. Anyway, next question.

• 16:35Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Yeah, real cool.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Jocko, what do I do when one of my teammates isn't really pulling their weight? They used to be pretty good, but things have gone downhill. How can I get, how can I get them to fix themselves?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  It is extra tricky because he's a friend of mine.

• 16:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Well, you got your, your teammate slash friend that's not pulling their weight. And how do you get them back in the game? First thing I'm gonna do, actually, the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna help them.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna help, I'm gonna take some weight off of their shoulders. I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually step in and say, oh, hey, Echo, you know, you got that, that project we're working on? And you know what that little assignment you got? Hey, I gotta, I gotta stay at the office a little bit late tonight anyways. I'm gonna knock, just give that to me. I'll just hammer it out tonight. I'm gonna be here anyways. Cause I gotta pick up my kids late from school. Is that cool? Just take a little weight off.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  Just do what you can, you know, maybe just carry some, how do you know what that person's got going on at home?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:39Jocko Willink?

  Right? What are you gonna jump right down their throat and get all in their face?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Make it worse?

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  And get things worse when actually that person has a sick kid or has a problem with their husband or wife or whatever? And now we're getting in their face and getting in their grill about it?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:54Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm just gonna lean in and give them, give them a hand. That, that seems like what a good teammate would do, especially if the person's your friend. So get in there and hopefully. They'll say, "Hey, hey, thanks. You know what? I got this problem at home," or "Thanks, I got this health issue going on." And you, "Hey, no problem." And guess what? We just built a little relationship. We bonded a little bit tighter. We were friends, now we're even a little bit tighter friends.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:18Jocko Willink?

  So that's a positive thing. Now, there's also a chance, of course, that, well, and to continue down that story, eventually they get healthier, they solve the problem at home, and they get back in the game, and then we're all good. And guess who the next person that might need a little assistance? It might be you. You might be the one with a problem, with a health issue, with a sick family member, or whatever. And you're the one that might have to lean on them. You want them to get in your face and start yelling at you about pulling your weight? Or do you just want them to say, "Hey, I got some capacity right now. Let me help you out."

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:48Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's so clear how you want to handle that. Number one, you just want to take some ownership of what's going on. Now, there is also the chance that, once they've come back, or that you help them out, and they like, start looking at you and saying, "Oh, you know, Jocko's just gonna do all my work for me." Jocko's just gonna, you know, "I can just lean on him. He's just gonna do everything." "Oh, I gave him one task. I'll let him do this other task that I've been assigned. I'll let him do another task that I've been assigned."

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  And if people start giving me their work to do, good. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do their work. I'm gonna do their work. And if they want me to do all their work, I'll do all their work, and eventually they won't have a job anymore. And then, I'll take their job. And then I'll have, I'll get promoted, and I'll hire more people that are gonna do the right thing and get after it. Right? So, that's okay. When somebody wants to put themselves on report for being lazy, by allowing you to do work, their work for them, allow them to fill out that report in full detail.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing is, so then do you jump up and down and say, "Look, I'm doing Echo's job. Look, I'm doing..." No, no, no, no, you don't do that. You don't do that. You don't need to do that. You may want to do it because you feel like you need to do it, but you don't.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 20:07Jocko Willink?

  You, you, the recognition will come. You just need to be patient. Of course, on top of all this, there is some indirect coaching that you can do to try and get them up to speed. You know, as opposed to saying, you're screwed up Echo. Instead you say, hey Echo, I got some extra capacity with what's going on. Is there anything I can do to help you out? You know, is there any support that you need? Cause I know you, you're, this part of the task is a little bit bigger than mine. And so, you know, is there anything I can do to help you get the job done? You need any support from me? Cause I'm, I'm actually elevating you a little bit by saying your task is harder and more challenging and bigger and more important. Or you can also say, hey, is there anything we should, we need from the boss to, to help us down here?

• 20:50Jocko Willink?

  Any support that we should get from up the chain of command? Cause I think if we go with a unified front, we could get some help. I'm, I'm actually feeling pretty good about my area of responsibilities, but are you feeling good about yours? Cause if not, maybe you need some more support. We could get it from you if we go to the boss as a unified front and make it happen.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  And then you say, oh yeah, well, you know what? I got this and I need another person or I need some more man hours or whatever the case may be.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  We get you moving in the right direction.

• 21:15Jocko Willink?

  And that's it.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  What if they're just slacking?

• 21:18Jocko Willink?

  They're just slacking. Cool. Let them slack. Yeah. Let them slack. There's also, there's also a thing where a lot of times when I come and take your work from you, if you're not just a, a turd, you'll be like, yeah, like, hey, you know, Jocko, you did this last week. I got it, man. It's no problem.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  You, you as a human being will feel like you're not carrying the weight for the tribe. And when human beings feel like they're not carrying the weight for the tribe, they, they want to help. They, they feel like they're not going to get their, their piece of meat. Right? So they want to help out. You, you, you ever seen that, you know, you're, that's what your mom used to do to you when you were a kid. Just, they'd just be cleaning you something and you go, you feel like, okay. I need to help.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes.

• 22:01Jocko Willink?

  Or you'll see, you know,

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Your wife.

• 22:03Jocko Willink?

  My wife will do that to you.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. She'll do that to me all the time. Actually every single time. So you know how like, you know, I don't know. Saturday comes, you know? We don't have any plans on Saturday. So I'm cruising and my wife starts taking on this kind of big cleaning project, the garage, whatever. I don't know. Garage in my case. And then she'll kind of walk and she'll be like, hey, um, you know.

• 22:28Jocko Willink?

  What do you want me to do with this thing that I found in the back corner of the garage? What do you want me to do with this? And then three minutes later she's back, what do you want me to do with this thing?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well, no, well, yeah, of course, that happens all the time. But as far as the example for this, the comparison is she'll be like, hey, can you clean out this whole thing right here? And I'll be like, I'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I didn't really plan on that whole big project right now. So, you know, maybe I'm kind of doing this unimportant thing or whatever. I'll be like, yeah, I'll do it in a few minutes, but then I'll see her doing it.

• 22:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying?

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  And then you.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Doing my work, but all right, I gotta do it. I can't let her do my job because it's kind of my job now.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, one time my wife on the opposite end of the spectrum, we were planning to redo my backyard a little bit. And we were going to put in like a five foot retaining wall with, you know, concrete block and dig a foundation and all that. And then re backfill the soil to fill it up to the level of the five foot retaining wall. And so I kind of talked about my wife with, you know, I was gonna, you know, hey, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna build this retaining wall. We'll put some steps here and it'll be good. We can backfill. We'll have a level yard. It'll be really nice. And so, so then like on a Sunday at like one o'clock in the afternoon. She's like, why don't you build that retaining wall today?

• 23:49Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, you know, it's a little late in the day for me to start that project.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  Right now.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Why? You gotta get it all done.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  Because this was like a nine day project.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  That's why.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Oh, she wanted you to build it right then and there.

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  Hey, what are you doing this afternoon? If you're not doing anything, how much you build a five foot concrete block retaining wall over here with drainage? And then backfill and put sod down. That sounds like something you could do in the afternoon.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, hurry up.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  Unless you're weak.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm not talking that good into my microphone. Whichever.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Jocko, I'm a high school teacher. I consider myself the leader in the classroom. How do I demonstrate extreme ownership in the classroom? For example, one of my students misbehaves. How do I take extreme ownership of their behavior?

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, one way to do this.

• 24:46Jocko Willink?

  And I do this with my kids. I did it with my platoon guys.

• 24:53Jocko Willink?

  Do it with jujitsu kids, whoever. And what you do is you do exactly what you're saying you want to do, which is you take ownership. So what that means is you take ownership of their behavior. So when something goes, when the kid's misbehaving, you say, hey, what am I not making clear to you? That you continue to act like this because obviously I must be doing something wrong because I'm the teacher and you're in here acting like an idiot and disrupting everything. What am I not doing well? How could I convey this message to you that that you shouldn't act like that? Not only that, but how can I better make you understand that what you do right now is going to affect and impact the rest of your whole life?

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  Because I want you, I'm supposed to convey that to you as a person that if you get engaged in class, you're going to have a more successful and better life. And that's what my kind of goal is. And so what I want to know is how I can better explain to you that your behavior while you're in here from classroom attendance to having big outbursts, to skipping class, to not turning in your homework, to failing tests, all those behaviors that you kind of display on a regular basis. I, I need, I need to find a better way to explain to you that the way you are acting right now

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  will absolutely dictate where you're going to be in the future. And it, and by the way, it's not a positive thing. It's not a positive thing at all. Your life is going in the wrong direction. And as a teacher, I'm supposed to move it in the right direction. So what do you think I could do better to help you understand that?

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  So, there we go. That's, that's, that's one method. And by the way, I've used that with my kids too. That's a very effective method for parenting. Is, isn't, "Why did you not clean your room?" It's, "How did I fail as a father to, to make you understand that basic fundamental hygiene is a positive thing?" "Where did I, where did I fail?" And that's actually, the cleaning room example isn't a great one, but when it's something a little bit more severe than that, something like when they really do something that's, that's outside the lines, right?

• 27:23Jocko Willink?

  And you say, instead of saying, "You know, you went outside the lines, you're messed up." Instead, you say,

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  "I'm sorry that I couldn't convey to you the importance of these lines and why we don't go out them." "And now, now, now I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, I, I don't know what mistakes I made and I let you down as a, as a father." "'Cause clearly you don't understand the boundaries of, of what is good and what is bad." "And I feel like I let you down." And that, for my kids, provokes a better reaction than, "You screwed up."

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  "You screwed up." Now, going on, the other thing you can do here is you can explain how their behavior affects and impacts everyone else in the class. And that you, as the teacher, is not only responsible for their behavior, which you are, but you're also responsible for teaching every single person in the class. And, and that you own that. You own the education of these other kids and that you're not gonna let one kid

• 28:30Jocko Willink?

  destroy the experience for everyone else because that is not fair and you will not do it. I'm not gonna let that happen. I'm not gonna let you come in here and impact all these other kids with your negativity and your bad behavior. These kids are here to learn. They actually wanna do something with their lives. They wanna take over and dominate. They wanna win. And I'm looking at you and I think you must want to lose because that's where, that's where you're heading. That's what you want to do is lose in life. Because these other kids, they wanna win.

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  So I'm not gonna let that happen. I'm not gonna let them lose because you want to lose. If you wanna lose, you can go do it on your own time in the principal's office.

• 29:09Jocko Willink?

  And then you, maybe you have to kick them out of class. Maybe you have to suspend them for, or whatever. And

• 29:17Jocko Willink?

  I think that then you have to let people understand that just like you take ownership, they should take ownership of their lives, right? That's the fundamental thing that you're getting at. And lastly, and this is something that I think is very hard for young kids to understand. Young kids, meaning the ages between like fifteen and twenty. Twenty-five. Maybe even twenty-five. Some kids get it earlier, you know? Some kids understand it earlier. But

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  understanding this thread of this, this thread of the passage of your life and that the way that you act right now. Yeah. Affects the where you're gonna be in a week, in a month, a year, in five years and ten years. And kids do not understand that. They do not understand it. I didn't understand it when I was Yeah. ten, twelve, fifteen, eighteen, thirty.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Like, well, I, I think, I think actually, one of the things, one of the best things for me is that when you join the military, they, they show you that thread and it's very clear. They're like, hey, you do this and you get promoted. You do this and you get advanced. You get this and you get your paycheck. You get this, oh, and you do this other thing? You don't get a paycheck. You didn't do this other thing? You go to the brig. Yeah. You do this other thing and you'll, you'll, won't make it through SEAL training. Yeah. So, you know, that was for me, I shouldn't have said get promoted, because for me it was get to SEAL training and get through SEAL training. I didn't care about getting promoted. I never did. But to get, when I was eighteen years old, to get to SEAL training and to get through SEAL training,

• 30:54Jocko Willink?

  that was a crystal clear path for me. And I saw it, and as soon as I saw it, I said, okay, I will not veer off that path. What they tell me to do, I'll do. Now, there's nothing that's that solid for a civilian. Right? For a civilian to say, okay, if you do this right now, you're gonna get into this college. Yeah. If you get into this college and you get these kind of grades, you're gonna get this kind of job. There's no real clear path like that. And so it's harder to draw that thread for people. But I think you can do it. I think you're gonna show examples of of, of where you end up in the societal structure based on your behavior as a teenage person, a teenage human. Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's gonna be hard, just straight up. That's just gonna be hard for a teacher. Because, because of the time constraints, like, or the time limitations you have with the, with the kid.

• 31:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think one thing that is, I've done with, with my kids is I look at other human beings in the world with them. And I explain to them that that's a person. That's a person. I was talking about this with my son. It left such an impact on him. Yesterday, we were down at the beach early morning one time, years ago. He was probably, probably eight years old. We were going surfing. Waves were good, by the way. It was a big day.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 32:09Jocko Willink?

  We got done. And so now it's seven thirty, eight o'clock in the morning. And there's a guy that's a obvious drug-induced state of mayhem. And he's got five cops, and they get him down, and we're watching this whole thing, and he's yelling, swearing. And they, they put a spit bag on his head. So he's just full-on crazy. And you know, my son's saying, wha- wha- wha- what is that, Dad? You know, and say, oh, that's a spit bag. So that this guy doesn't spit on these police officers that are down here doing their job. And I said, this is what happens when you go on drugs. This is where you end up.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  You end up with no shirt on, one shoe, ripped jeans, you, you have a spit bag on your head, you're handcuffed, and you're going to jail. That, that's where you end up. That's where the path leads. So, don't do those things. Don't, don't start down that path. And it's the same thing, you know, I was with my daughter, and we saw, what did we see? I was pointing out to her, again, someone, a woman, that clearly didn't have a place to live.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, she was a homeless person. And I, you know, walking with my daughter, and we see the woman with the shopping cart, and it's filled with, you know, stuff, you know, crap, and sleeping bags, and cans, and whatever. Clearly a homeless person. But it was weird, and the reason I specifically point out was because she looked somewhat, you know, somewhat normal, and yet you could tell that she was not doing well. And so, you know, I said to my daughter, I said,

• 33:57Jocko Willink?

  What do you think of of that person? And she says, I don't know. What do you mean? And I said, well, do you think that person wants to be there? And she said, well, well, no. And I said, well, how do you think she ended up there? And she said, I don't know. And I said, you know, I don't know. I don't know either. But that's a real person. And when she goes to bed tonight, she's going to be underneath a bridge somewhere. It's going to be cold. She's going to be wet. She's going to be miserable. And that is how that's her life. That's where she ended up. So some choices that she made along the way may have contributed to that. And what I'm saying to you is make choices that will contribute to you not ending up in that position.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  Because those people that you see that are homeless, that are addicted to drugs, those people are actually people. And you can, it's very easy to view them as, oh, I could never be there. They're not. They're a different species than me. They're not. That's, I guess that's the, that's the point of my story. Is that it's really easy for people to look at other people and think that's not, I could never be there. That could not happen to me. And my point to my kids is, oh, yes, it can. If you make the wrong choices. Hey, you know what? It could be bad luck. Sure, it could be bad luck. It can be bad luck. But most of the time, the vast majority of the time, it's decision making. Bad decision making gets you in bad situations.

• 35:24Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, people that go off the path and and then they say, you know what? I screwed up. I did the wrong thing and I'm going to now fix it. That's, you don't see people like that that are homeless. You don't see people like that that are addicted to drugs. Because they take responsibility and they say, okay, I made this mistake. I didn't do the right things. I need to get fixed. And they fix it. Whereas someone that says, oh, it's my parents' fault and it's my boyfriend's fault and it's my girlfriend's fault and it's my old boss's fault and it's my pushers' fault and whoever you want to blame. It's if it's not your fault, you don't, you don't fix the problem. You don't take ownership of the problem. You don't fix it on a personal level. And that's problematic.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Your parents were teachers huh?

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes, both teachers.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Makes sense. There's a lot of, it seems like there's a lot of similarities with teachers and then parents, right? Cause it's both like, you're both trying to guide these young minds. Oh, by the way, kids, teenagers, whatever, yeah, they can't really have, you know, I say they don't understand the correlation between like their actions now and whatever. They, they kinda can't because that part of their brain isn't developed yet. It's the front part, frontal, whatever.

• 36:44Jocko Willink?

  It's called the front part, that sounds technical.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  It's a medical term, but it tends to, on average, or whatever, develop by age 25. That's why I said 25. So that's typically, you know, give or take when it, when it's done developing. So yeah, before that, and it's basically the decision making like, okay, what I, just what you said, what I do now affects the future. And you know how like now you're like, oh, when you do something, you can almost feel the payoff in the future. It's almost like that. You understand it now. Back then you couldn't. That's why these colleges, when you go to college at 18 or 17 in my case, they all, all these credit card, little credit card pushers, they'll just post stuff outside of your dorm room and be like, hey, unsecured, I don't even know what unsecured means by the way at this time.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Uh, $300 limit, just credits, free money, it's free money. That's how they do, all you gotta do is fill out this thing and everyone, of course, of course. I don't know what that means. I'll pay it back way later. So they get you like that, but nonetheless. Um, yeah, so they don't have that part of their brain. They, they don't know. So the, the answer is, and I'm kinda drawing from my childhood. So I had these two teachers, right? One teacher's name was Mr. Tokita, Japanese guy. And he was like a little samurai ninja guy. Didn't really talk that much, like outside of the classroom. And when he'd talk in the classroom, it was all deliberate stuff. There was no small talk. It was really rigid. We had a quiz every single Friday. Every single Friday, 10 questions, real short quiz about the week stuff.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  His little lecture on the board was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I think he'd even underline the key points, you know, so you'd know. There was a, there was no like, hey, read this and I'm gonna test you on it. No mystery. This is what you're gonna be doing. He underlined the key points and you gotta know those key points at the end of the week. Test every week. Boom, you take or quiz, it's a quiz, then there's a test on all the stuff, whatever. But you were not ill-equipped for these tests. You knew, as long as you were showing up paying attention, you knew. So either you did it or you didn't do it, you know, so it was, and there was no like, hey, guys, nothing like you. You knew what to expect. This guy was so consistent with every, every little thing. All the way down to the, like, if you call him Tokita, cause sometimes that's how, you know, when you get real chummy with it,

• 38:59Speaker 01

  with the teachers, just in general, if you're that kind of person. You won't say mister or misses, right? So some, every once in a while, you'd be like, hey, um, I don't know, Smith, we'll just say if the teacher's name was Mrs. Smith. He'd be like, hey, Smith, and you know, it's, it's a kind of chummy relationship. So one time, I forget who it was, might have been this girl, Crissy. Anyway, he goes, oh, Tokita, cause she liked him, and he was a likeable guy, that's the thing. But, um, but just really consistent and rigid, like a ninja or something. And they were like, hey, Tokita, um, and asked a question. And he didn't get mad, nothing like that. He just answers the, real stoic, just answers the question. And as he's shuffling his papers like this, just real like, this guy was so cold, cold as ice guy.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  He goes like this, boom, he answers the question, and he goes, and that's mister Tokita. And then he just continues on, right? And I was like, dang, that was fucking awesome. But anyway, I did the best in that class because it was one of those things that it was so consistent. Like, there was no room for slack. If, if you slacked off, it was really apparent.

• 40:03Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, but he wasn't the kind, like, he wouldn't yell at you. It wasn't that.

• 40:08Jocko Willink?

  I don't yell.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom. You don't need to yell when, when people understand expectations. You don't need to yell.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  And the thing, and you're like this too, where you're real consistent. That's the thing too. Cause you know, sometimes, let's say you're real rigid one week and then the next week. Or let's say you're, you're really rigid, like, the whole year. And then, I don't know, you're not, you're feeling, I don't know, you're hungover or something, you partied or something. You come to class, as the teacher, by the way, um, and then you're not as rigid that day. Ooh, there's the little, there's the little chink in your, in your armor there. And they'll kind of start to exploit it, these kids. Which brings me to my second teacher, not gonna say his name, he was in seventh grade though. Where this guy was just all over the place, super easy to take advantage of this guy, he was a music teacher. Wait, was he a music teacher? Yeah, I think so, I don't know, I forget, but.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Super easy to take advantage of this guy, the kind like, he'd lose his cool all the time and you know, it was just funny to see him react a lot of the time, right? And here, the thing is, he didn't start like that, he started just super nice, just like, hey, the kind like, People would run over him and he'd be like, hey, you know, you, we don't have to, he was just super nice, but he wasn't consistent with anything. Then after a while, I think it was after like a few years. I hear that he's like really mean now.

• 41:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Like he loses his temper all the time, I'm like, what the heck?

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  It goes, it goes back to just discipline equals freedom, right? And if you would have held the line in the beginning and said, no, no, you don't act like that in here, stop. Then, if you would have stopped at the minimal, or at this small. Action. That was bad, this, this small bad behavior, if you tighten that up, then it would never get to bed, then he doesn't have to lose his temper and get crazy. And I'm sure he's a nice guy, I'm sure he's a positive guy and he had the highest hopes and expectations, going back to the earlier subject. He had the really high hopes that everyone's just gonna be in here to, to learn and, and open their minds and, and it's like, no, these kids are in here to Shoot spitballs and stick pencils into the back of the person sitting in front of them. Right? That's, that's sort of it.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  That's sort of it, and when you realize that, then you don't allow that minimal behavior and then they just don't get totally out of control.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:19Jocko Willink?

  Hard, hard work being a teacher.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Very much so, very much so, cuz again, like, cuz.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  It goes back to that thing, man, where, where you only have like what, an hour or something?

• 42:31Jocko Willink?

  Forty-five minutes, man.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a day, and that's only for like five days, maximum for the week, sometimes less, you know, if you've got holidays, whatever. And then they go home or wherever and then they get their influences, you know, boom, boom, as they grow up, then they come back to your class with all that influence. And it's like, what, what now, you know, and you gotta kind of find a way as a teacher. Not only to like get through to them just person to person, but you gotta get them all this material. And if they don't like that material, oh man, that's yet another task, you know? So again, man, if you have that that structure in place and it's consistent and they know what to expect, that's gonna help because they have this scaffolding. They don't know how to make this.

• 43:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, I got asked one time by a teacher, it's kind of a similar question, you know, I've done everything to get through to this person, they're just not, they're just not getting in the game. What do I do now? I was like, try a different way. Try a different way. You know, you didn't get through to them that way, try a different way. How can you get through them? Now, just like as a boss, as a leader, as a platoon commander, if you've tried every single possible different way and you've got someone that just cannot do it or does not want to do it, and they're negatively affecting everyone else, then it's your responsibility as a leader to get rid of them.

• 43:44Jocko Willink?

  Get rid of them. And had another conversation with a teacher one time who had kicked someone out of her school for fighting. And I, I, and, and this, this person's a great person and a friend of mine. She kicked someone out of the school. And we met at a, at a dinner and we were just talking and I said, oh, how's everything going? She goes, well, you know, I just kicked this person out of school. And I was like, oh, what's the situation? And she's, well, you know, it's this guy, this kid, and he's been a good kid. He doesn't come from a great home, but he got into a fight and hit another kid. And I just have no, we can't have that at school at all. And so me being a jerk, I was like, oh, so you just destroyed his, his life, basically?

• 44:29Jocko Willink?

  And she, and you know, and she's like, what do you mean? I go, well, if the kid doesn't have much of a home and he's not coming from a great family, the only thing he has is your school. And if you don't allow him in school, now you kicked him out, where's he gonna end up? I go, did you, did you already open up a space worm in prison somewhere? Because that's where he's headed. And I was just, I was, I was being a total jerk, but I didn't really realize that until I saw her like getting emotional. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. And, and so then we had the conversation. And what was great was we talked and, and we went through this conversation. And because what I was saying, even though I was being a jerk about it, even though I was being kind of, I don't know, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just being really, uh, really offensive. Because she's a friend, you know, and we, that's just how I am.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Like one of your SEAL team buddies.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly. Treating her like another SEAL. But then we talked and I said, look, but even though I'm, I don't mean to be a jerk. I'm, I'm, I'm telling like what I believe to be the truth.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Cracking but fact.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  You have a great school. You have this great opportunity for these kids and this kid who has been well behaved was, oh, and this was the other critical part. The kid that he got in a fight with, the kid that he punched, he soccer punched the guy, not soccer punch, but through the first punch. The other kid was the class jerk, the class picking on people and always misbehaving. That kid didn't get kicked out of the school. He wasn't gonna get kicked out of the school because he didn't actually get involved in the physical violence.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  And, and so then, and I told her that too. I said, look, you got one kid that he finally broke mentally. And you got another kid that just knows how to push people's buttons and he wanted him to hit him. And now you're kicking the kid out that actually probably should have done what he did. That kid probably deserved to get punched in the face. And, and anyways, after this long conversation, you know, she went back and the other, the other key little thing that we talked about was I, I said, it's okay for you as a leader to say, hey, look, I made a mistake. You know what? I'm not kicking him out of the school. You know why? Because this other kid acted like a jerk. This other kid harassed him. This other kid did these other kid things. And this child has been a well behaved child and he lost his temper. And that's human and we're gonna keep him in the school. And she did that. So

• 46:38Jocko Willink?

  my point is it's a hard job.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:41Jocko Willink?

  And

• 46:43Jocko Willink?

  yeah, that's my point.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Big time. Man, and that's, and that's another, yet another thing that I think we gotta balance this in regular society too, but it's, so this kid, right? For example, your example where the kid punched the guy. So boom, we have this incident. So what do you do though? Right? It's like, that's a problem. If you, and as far as problem solving goes, you don't punish the kid. You evaluate what happened and then you essentially help the kid so he doesn't punch anyone. Like some people there are like, hey, we gotta punish this kid somehow, give him detention or something. And does that solve the problem?

• 47:16Jocko Willink?

  Maybe, yeah, maybe we actually teach someone to control their emotions.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Like, why'd you punch him? Oh, because this guy did this. Okay, there's another problem, by the way. So we gotta teach this kid to stop messing around in that way, you know, and then we gotta teach this kid, okay, if you get, you get messed around.

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  You're right. And sometimes the only way some kids learn a lesson is by being severely punished, kicked out of a school, whatever, you know, expelled or something like that. But most cases, what most cases, what does that really teach them? That, that, that school doesn't care about them. Right? So that's a tough situation. You know, interestingly, in Way of the Warrior Kid, the, the next book that's coming out.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:53Jocko Willink?

  The whole, and I'm not going to give the whole story away, but the, the opening chapter, young Mark is in the principal's office. And he's in the principal's office because he threw a paper mache pumpkin at another kid's head. Why did he do it? Cause he was frustrated. Cause he got mad. Cause the kid was picking on him continually, uh, verbalizing verbal abuse. And finally Mark just got mad and he hucked a paper mache pumpkin at the kid's head. It bounced off the kid's head and hit, and hit Ms. Carpenter right in the face too. So he got sent to the office. But anyways, and but the point is where I, what the reason I did that is because kids that are 11 years

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  old, they still lose their temper. They haven't learned to control their temper yet. And so one of the themes in the new Warrior Kid book is that a warrior has to learn to control their temper and control their emotions.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:48Jocko Willink?

  The lessons that we're talking about right now.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  Interestingly enough. So thanks to the teachers out there.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Big time, man. Cause man, as a T E, and I have never been a teacher, obviously, but I mean, just even halfway imagining it, man, you kind of care about like these kids, but you care about them all. So, and then you have all the, the whole spectrum of them. You have the kid who's like, ooh, the teacher's pet, as far as the other kids are concerned. But meanwhile, you love that kid. Cause man, he's picking up what you're putting down and he's listening. He's giving you apples and whatnot. Then you have on the other side, you have the one that, that won't listen to anything disrupting your class, you know, but you want that kid, like, of course you want to leave you, like, stop messing up my whole thing.

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  But you want to be successful.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Cause like when you, you know how you teach someone something and you see him use it? Oh man, that's the best. As any kind of teaching capacity that, you know, as far as the role that you play like in jujitsu or something like that, even like another adult. This is all the same, right? Actually, I think kids.

• 49:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's like, there's a fundamental human characteristic, I believe, that makes you wanna help other people.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:50Jocko Willink?

  Feels good.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  It's like your influence, like, living on or something.

• 49:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 49:55Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  But, man, so it's like, it's like, yet, that's yet another thing you gotta deal with as a teacher, you know? Cause you're committed, man. It's like, crazy tale.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 50:07Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm a firefighter. Speaking of which, I'm a fighter firefighter in Australia. And in the time I've been in this job, I've been in several jobs that were very challenging. I've entered burning homes to extinguish fires and search for residents and their pets. I've searched for victims during times of flood and helped people evacuate their homes in times of natural disasters. I've attended car crashes and cut victims from vehicles and pulled deceased people from others. I've, I also know that I'm not alone. I am aware of the fact that while I've been doing this, countless firefighters around the globe who are thousands of times braver than me and have done things that the vast majority of the population would not be capable of.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  And that doesn't even acknowledge the courage of our police and paramedics and our military who step up day after day to do what has to be done because of, if not me, then who? My question is this, how do you suggest those in the frontline deal with the trivial issues at home? I attended a very severe car accident. I had on collision with a school bus full of children and another car. Thankful, thankfully, all the children in the school bus were okay, but it took us three hours to cut the driver from the car. And she had very serious injuries and was airlifted to a hospital. When I got home that night, I was confronted by an upset girlfriend who wanted to talk about some extra extraordinarily trivial issue, which I struggled to listen to.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  The whole time she was talking, I just kept thinking about the job and making sure I'd, I'd done everything I possibly could have for the driver. But I was also. Aware of the fact that my fiance's problems are important to her, so I need to be supportive. I listened for as long as I could, I listened for as long as I could, then unfortunately, I just said, "Your day could have been a lot worse. No one spent three hours cutting you out of a car, so be thankful." "I know I can't be alone on this. I know police, paramedics, and the military would be suffering the same thing." "How do you suggest is the best way to deal with this?"

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  Check. So,

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  it was always, always my goal to protect my family from darkness and evil in the world. That includes these kind of things. You want to shield them from this. Now, this doesn't mean to keep them oblivious. You don't want them thinking that the world that you've created for them, that's well protected and secure. You don't want them thinking that that's the way the whole world is. You don't want them thinking that, but I sure didn't throw this kind of stuff at my family on a regular basis, but I took pride, and I think that that's the answer here.

• 53:03Jocko Willink?

  Take pride in letting your family or your loved ones live in worlds where their trivial issues are the most important thing in their world, the most impactful thing in the world for them.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so that's, that's number one. And if you get yourself a little bit of, of satisfaction every time your, your significant other complains that, you know, the, the ice machine isn't really working up to full speed. It's really horrible. Right? You should, you should be proud. Think of yourself, "Yeah, well, you know what? Let me, let me take a look at it." "Maybe there's a kink in the water line. I don't know, but we'll try and get that thing up to speed." "So you can have cold drinks." "'Cause that's where I want your world to be, right? "I want you to have plenty of ice." "For your drinks or whatever." Uh, so that's, that's it. If you can, if you can put your, your family in that kind of a-

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Protected environment, you should be proud of it. And you should be, and the way they indicate that to you. They don't say, hey, thank you for letting me live in a protected environment. They don't say that to you. They, they, they're in the environment, they don't even know that they're in it.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  The way they, the way they let you know that they're in that environment is when they, when they complain about trivial things.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  So that's number one. The other thing is try and, try and see things from other people's perspectives. You know, in, in this case, my, my wife's, right? To my, my wife would say things is a big deal to her. And for her, it was a big deal. And like I just said, I wanted it to be a big deal for her. And also, I'll tell you what, we're talking about firefighters and military and police, but this goes to other non-uniformed jobs as well.

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  If, if you can leave your work at work, because you think some, you know, every job, there's stresses at every job. And you're out there grinding and you're in trouble with the boss, or you're trying to get a project fig- figured out. And you've got all this stress coming down on you, or you've lost money, or you've got a huge deal on the table, whatever the case may be.

• 55:12Jocko Willink?

  If you can isolate your family from that as much as you can. And I'm not saying to an unhealthy level where you're just not telling them what's going on, but bear the burden. Man, bear the burden of that you, that you hold to protect your family.

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah. Um, that's what I think, that's what I think. We, we do our best to protect our family and our loved ones from the darkness, the pressure, the stress, the evil in the world. Again, you don't make them oblivious, you don't disconnect from them in order to do that. But you shield them from it and you bear the burden yourself so that they don't have to bear it as much. Again, you don't want your kids growing up to be spoiled. You don't want your wife to be saying, if I don't get of a latte this morning, I will absolutely not even.

• 56:10Jocko Willink?

  Right? You don't want to be married to that person. Yeah, not even. I did that pretty good, didn't I? My middle daughter is like the funniest person ever and she can do all these crazy. I'm stealing her material right there. Cause she'll do that. She'll say, she'll say, "That is so, oh my god, it's not even." You know, and she's kidding, because she knows that there's human beings like that in the world that say not even. There's nothing at the end of it. They're not completing sentences.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  I think that might be something new. That's not even, you know, I've heard, "I can't even, oh, I can't even."

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's the same thing.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Same thing, yeah, yeah, some updated.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's just a different angle on it.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, hey, thanks for, uh, thanks for doing all that hard work, man. That's, um, that's awesome. I know I see firefighters, police officers, military people all the time. I hear from all the time. And, yeah, try and shield your family as much as you can. Don't drag them down the, down into the darkness with you.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like a good way.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  And take pride in it.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  That's what I was gonna, exactly what I was gonna say. It's like, take pride in, it's like embracing the role as like the captain, kind of thing.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  You know, where it's like, yeah, you know, wife's mad about, you know, they put cream in her coffee and she asked for non-fat milk. That's from Seinfeld, by the way. Um, and, you know, whatever, and she's pissed. And meanwhile, you know, you just pulled a lady out for three hours, by the way. A bus and car crash, head-on collision. So it's, you know, you embrace the role. It's like, okay, you know, boom, I'm dealing, uh, one second I'm dealing with straight up life and death and kids and accidents and tragedy. And then one second later, I'm dealing with essentially nothing.

• 57:49Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  But it's my wife's feelings. That's what I'm dealing with. My wife's feeling. I'm not dealing with non-fat milk versus cream. I'm not dealing with that. I'm dealing with my wife's feelings. And that's part of the job, too. So you can't just be like, hey, I'm gonna do my job. One second I'm gonna do my job really good, and the next second, I'm not gonna do it so good. You can't do that. Embrace the role as the guy who gets the job done, regardless of how big, how small. So.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  So as a husband, this is where I can speak from because I've been a husband for eight years.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Successfully because I'm currently a husband too. So there'd be, you know how like people have little things.

• 58:27Jocko Willink?

  I'll have to check with her on that.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Please, please.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  On how actually you suggest for me.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Check for me too because I need that info too. Anyway, but she'll so you know how, you know, people they'll, they'll tell you something and then you'll be like, wait, what did you mean by that? You're kind of offended like, are you like, are you kind of digging at me or something like that? You know, like that kind of stuff. Even though you know kind of they were, right? Like that was a little passive aggressive, little comment kind of thing. So every once in a while, when I'd experience that, not to say it happens all the time, but if it ever happened, what I'd do to kind of combat that anger? Because bro, I'm the kind, I'm the kind where like, if there's like a issue.

• 59:04Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying passive aggressive from your wife?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:07Jocko Willink?

  And what you would do to combat the anger would be?

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Would be.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to move this story along.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Embracing, no, it's relevant to this though and important. I think it helps. It totally helps. Where I embrace the role of the, I don't know, for lack of a better name, the captain, you know? Embrace the role of captain where sure she's passive aggressive, whatever, you know? Maybe I'll, over time, I'll start to understand more or whatever. But so I in, in, like envision myself as Superman for, and her passive aggressive comments are bullets. And they were just bouncing off of me, just like bullets off Superman.

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's cool. That's cool until the fact that if you don't react and she's going to escalate. She wants some kind of reaction out of you.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:45Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes you have to give them some kind of reaction.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:48Jocko Willink?

  Otherwise they'll continue to escalate.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  To a point where you do react.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  So I learned that a while ago.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  No reaction is, is not always good.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Right. So I, and I don't mean.

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  You gotta say, you gotta say the bullet hits you and you gotta say, oh, that bullet hurt. Oh, um, yeah, I should be a little more careful when the bullets are flying around. That's wow. I need to be a little bit more, you know, careful of these bullets. They can really hurt me.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  Have to be careful.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  But see how your, your tone and stuff is like, there's no anger there.

• 1:00:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  But that, so that's what I meant. I meant it's just to combat the anger. Not the, the problem solving thing. That's a whole nother thing as far as I'm concerned. Like if she's passive aggressive or mad about, I don't know, because I put the dish away when it was wet. And you know, before I dried it away. That's not what it was by the way, but I'm just saying if it's just, that's a whole different thing. So if I. Anger wise, the bullets bounce off of me, boom, I don't get angry, then I can start addressing those issues, the ones that you're talking about. But I mean to combat the straight up anger.

• 1:00:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, keep your emotions in check.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  Stifling.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Like her insults are bouncing off of me like Superman. It helps sometimes. Most of the time. Alright, next question. Jocko, I'm leading a project that involves a few of my team members and about 10 other team members from other functions. The project has high visibility in the large organization, over 10 billion in revenue, that I work for, so the pressures to execute is high. We have had some issues with cross-functional team members meeting their deliverables and to keep the project on path, but we're pushing, sometimes dragging, everyone along to make things happen. Recently, on a formal review with the leadership team, the question was asked, "Why is this project behind?"

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  I'm a firm believer in providing protection for your team, so my response was, "They're excuses, but to be honest, they're just excuses. So we're doing everything we can to get it back on track." Trying to take the brunt of the performance miss on my shoulders. No additional comments were made in that meeting, and it ended. My boss was on the call and pulled me aside the next day and voiced his opinion that I should not hesitate to call out the lack of performance on the other functional team members. His thought is that doing so does not allow the leadership to coach, mentor, and/or fix the issues correctly. I understand this logic, but I don't feel that true leaders point fingers or throw others under the bus. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so first of all, your boss has a little bit of a point, but it's also, there's some limitations to it. Number one, you know, our goal as a leader is to build relationships with people, accomplish the mission, etc., etc. So, if...

• 1:02:34Jocko Willink?

  If we, if we start just calling people out in front of a senior leadership on a call, well, are you forming a good relationship with people? The answer is no. You're actually making them mad and they're saying, the first thing they're going to do when you call them out is call, call you up as soon as the call ends and they're going to say, dude, why didn't you tell me that? Why are you telling me this in front of the boss? So here's the deal. You should not ever have to throw someone under the bus without plenty of warning, right? Without plenty of them to know and expect and be prepared with an answer, that's what you should be doing. It's kind of like that escalation of counseling that I talk about. Like you start off by just saying, hey, man, you were late, you know, what's up?

• 1:03:17Jocko Willink?

  And you go all the way to like, okay, if you're late again, and there's a whole slow escalation or depending on how fast you need to get it done. But with this one, it's the same thing. You say, hey, Echo, you know, you're, you're part of the project. Well, do you need help right now? What's going on? You, you don't seem up to speed. And then it, then we escalate to, hey, Echo, you just missed another, you know, target date. This is the second target date you've missed. We get, we had a problem. And then it's, hey, Echo, do you not have the supports you need? What do you need? Cause this isn't working out. And then it's, look, the only way I'm going to be able to do this, we got to bring this up to the boss. I think you need more people. And then that's another important thing is, is you frame it, you frame it in such a way that it's not hurting them, but it's actually helping them.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  So I, I might say on the call, hey, you know, uh, uh, Alpha team is working really hard, but they need more X, Y, and Z to get the job done. So, uh, you know, I think we should give Echo and Alpha team more X, Y, and Z. Okay. Cause he missed a date and, and I know they're working hard. Or you say, you know, I think we need more people allocated over to Alpha team. I, I think they've been over tasked and they could use some support. So let's give them some more people. Or you can even say, I'm moving two people from my team over to Alpha team temporarily to give them some additional capacity over there. Cause their task is more demanding than what I've been assigned.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  So all of those things are letting everyone know, bringing the problem to the attention of the, of the group. So that now you say, actually Jocko, here's what's going on. I don't need two more people. I need four more people. Or, you know, you say, okay, um, hey, I don't need anyone else. If you're one of those people, the ego gets in the way. And you say, I don't need anyone else. And people say, okay, well, you missed two time marks. You missed two, you know, dates. Well, I don't need any more people. Okay. Okay. Well, let's see if you can, if you can make this next, next date, then I guess you don't. But if you miss another date, well, then I guess you need more people. So we, we move through it like that. So yeah, you do have to discuss things. You can do, you can discuss these things. You can bring them up in a way that they are not offensive.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  To, to people. They don't throw them under the bus, but they do, however, signify that the bus is around. And that if we aren't careful, you might get hit by the bus. And you gotta give people plenty of warning. It's the same thing with, same thing I've talked about in the past with skipping the chain of command. You know, you shouldn't be skipping the chain of command unless, unless you've given so much warning and you do it in such a way that, you know, they, they actually know it's gonna happen. They expect it's gonna happen. They kind of agree with you. So be careful with those things. Again, if someone's doing something immoral, illegal, unethical, and you skip the chain of command because you've already tried to solve with them and they're not doing it, well, then you might have to just go get some.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you're, you're culpable if you don't.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  So form good relationships with people. Don't form antagonistic relationships. You know, I just had a conversation with a guy when I was in, in Boston. Similar situation, but you know, he, he was saying he, there was a situation he was in.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  And what he said was politically, it was, he didn't want to address it because politically if he dressed it, it might explode. And I said, well, if it, if the, if it address, if you address the situation, it's like a classic case. I know how to do this more efficiently. This experienced person doesn't want to try my method. Okay, and I said, well, why don't you present him with the method and say, um, you know, hey, here's, here's how we should do this. And he says, no, I don't want to do that because the person that I want to get to use the new method is really close friends with the boss and if, if I form that bad relationship, it's going to be bad. And I go, would that affect your overall mission to your ability to do the mission to have bad relationships, not only with your immediate boss, but with your boss's boss? And he's like, yes, it would. And I go, then it doesn't sound like a good plan.

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  There you go. There's your answer because even though you have a better method and you might say like a direct, a, a person with a direct train of thought mindset would say, no, you go, you tell the boss's boss that this is the method and we're going to be more efficient if we do it this way. Well, now you've just exploded a, a bomb on yourself and it's going to be bad. So I gave him the classic, hey, why don't you say, listen, I think I've thought of a new method. I think we might be able to get some efficiencies out of it, but since I'm not as experienced and don't know the systems as well as you do, I would love to get your feedback on how it works. I think that you're the, the only one that could really know how to do this because you're so experienced and smart and brilliant and all that stuff and awesome.

• 1:07:45Jocko Willink?

  And you try and feed him some of the new methods so that he can try it and either say, yeah, this stuff's pretty good or you know what? There's some things that you didn't realize, young buck, and we got to get them fixed. So check.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Try and form relationships, positive relationships, not antagonistic relationships. If you throw people under the bus, you're not forming good relationships. Check.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Especially that surprise one, that's rough.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  To give you a little backstory, I tried my first jujitsu class last week and during the rolling part of the class, happened to get matched up with another white belt who has been going to the gym for over a year. During the roll, I got thrashed around a bit and tapped to what I've been told was called a cross collar choke. I ended up getting gee burns on my neck and my face. The game right there.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  As well as getting my lips split.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Having trained Muay Thai and sparred for a couple of years, I'm used to physical pain and that's and that didn't exactly bother me. What did bother me was the marks that that were left on my face, which in addition to just not looking good, I can't have because my job requires that I meet with clients face to face and these clients might make judgments and assume I was in a street fight. I also think the white belt I was rolling with went a little too hard on me. But I don't know enough about jiu-jitsu to determine whether or not people go full speed every roll. I know that in Muay Thai boxing and boxing, normally we try to tone down the intensity level for newbies, especially the first time they spar. So my questions are, one, does jiu-jitsu normally leave you with lots of marks or scrapes on your face?

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  I don't mind occasionally getting them, but can't go home with them after every class. That's A. Or first question. Second question, do people normally go full speed in rolling? And if not, how do I get him to stop without sounding like a giant wimp?

• 1:09:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so number one, does BJJ normally leave you with lots of marks or scrapes on your face? The answer is no, not normally. Will you occasionally? Yes, you will actually, you will get dinged up, you'll get black eyes, you'll split your lip, you'll have Gee Barnes on your face, you'll get scratched. Yeah, that'll, that's gonna happen. But it's not regular. It's not regular, it's, what do you think? Once every three weeks?

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  On your face and neck? Yeah, once every three weeks.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  Once every three weeks.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Maybe four weeks.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, maybe once a month, you have something visible while you're wearing a suit presenting to clients.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Given the normal amount of training, you know, like if you're straight up competitive, you know, mode, two times a day, five days a week, more, of course.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's more.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  But normal training, yeah.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  And then the next question is, do people normally go full speed in rolling? And if not, how do I get him to stop without sounding like a giant wimp? So, this is actually funny, because if you think about it, think about this, he's kinda complaining in a way that the other person was going too hard, right?

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:58Jocko Willink?

  And yet, he didn't tap.

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  To this until his face was scraped and got thrashed around. So what I'm saying is, it takes two people to escalate a situation and without knowing it, he escalated the situation because he resisted as hard as he could. He's only been training for a day and he's going there fighting like crazy instead of just relaxing and being like, hey, you know, I've only been, I've never trained before. Oh, you're gonna choke me out. Cool. You know, instead of learning and relaxing, you, you allow yourself to get caught up in the primal instinct of fighting for your life, which is what happens when people start jujitsu. They, the primal instinct takes over and it's also ego

• 1:11:41Jocko Willink?

  and, and the will to win, it takes over and they just want to go so hard and they can't believe that this little guy's choking me. They're not gonna let it happen. So that is actually your ego. And, and it's also your ego. And I, I tell people all the time, one of the main reasons people get hurt in jujitsu is because of ego. You either don't tap, number one, which is just stupid, or you, you don't say no to rolling with people that you know you shouldn't roll with. That's it. And when I say don't tap, it's like, it has to do with, with the way you're rolling too, right? I mean, if you're just gonna fight everything so super hard because you wanna win, well, then you're gonna end up having a much higher chance of getting injured. So,

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  I fall into that sometimes too. You know, if I'm, like I had a hurt knee the other day and you know, maybe like a month ago, my knee was a little hurt. And I was rolling, but I hadn't been doing a lot of stand up and all of a sudden I was escalating with whoever, with like A- Andy or someone. And all of a sudden I was standing and I didn't want to give up the position, right? And as I'm standing there, I'm like, oh, this is your ego right now. You, you, you have no reason to sit here and fight on the feet where your, where your knee is actually bothering you. Just don't be an idiot. And just pull guard and and so no big deal, right? Okay, pull guard. It's whatever.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  Did you pull guard?

• 1:13:05Jocko Willink?

  I did. Yeah, cuz I was realized I was being stupid. And if I'm there, I am. I've been healing and I'm almost good to go. And now I'm gonna jeopardize it because I just, I wanna stand up and get some, right?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  I wanna win.

• 1:13:16Jocko Willink?

  Stupid, stupid. So that is what you have to do. You have to put your ego in check and that is a huge part of jiu-jitsu. That's one of the things that makes jiu-jitsu so impactful is it's so humbling. Your ego can't withstand it. And despite how hard you fought against this guy in this question, that guy was still gonna tap you out. You didn't stand a chance. You didn't stand a chance.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, my first class versus a guy who'd been rolling for over a year.

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  Over a year. You don't stand a chance. You don't stand a chance. You don't. So what you what you wanna do is you wanna learn. So put your ego aside, relax, talk, and if you get someone that's going, so you don't wanna sound like a wimp. That's what gets you hurt. What's cool is when somebody's 58 years old and they're on the mat and some some 22-year-old blue belt that weighs 80 pounds more than them says, hey, you wanna roll? And the the older dude says, no, man, I'm good. I'm not rolling with you cuz their ego is in check. And they realize that's not gonna get him anywhere. Rolling with this big idiot.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Jocko Willink?

  That's not gonna get him anywhere. So they're saying, no, I don't wanna roll with you. Their ego is fine. They get there over it.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  So put your ego in check. You won't get marked up a lot and people people will go full speed if you're going full speed. That's the answer. The harder you go, the harder the other person's going. You wanna go in there and get to a level seven death match with every person you roll with? You're gonna get them. You're gonna get them, especially with people that are around your level.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Jocko Willink?

  Because if the person's a purple belt or a brown belt or a black belt, you can go nuts on them. It doesn't even matter to them. They're just gonna be laughing at you, although you can you can offend them. And I've seen some black belts and some good jujitsu practitioners that get offended if someone attacks them with fury like they have a chance. And you go, okay, cool. You wanna be like that? I'm gonna smash you. And I've done that from time to time. You know, where someone just they're they're in there. They're like, they think it's their day or whatever, and they think they're gonna get you. And you go, oh, you're not gonna get me, but now you've now you're gonna get God. And it's not gonna be fun.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that tends to happen though, not if you're well within the confines of just jujitsu stuff like um, but if you start to drift towards the edges of etiquette, so like let's say like if I'm if if you know I'm gonna spar with you and today is my day and I start stiff arming you hard and doing that kind of stuff, stuff that's it's legal, but it's like

• 1:15:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  You shouldn't, you know, it's like that kind of stuff that'll make a higher belt mad, I think.

• 1:15:45Jocko Willink?

  You are correct, you are correct. Just someone going, just someone going level nine psycho.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:51Jocko Willink?

  Instead of just being, oh, you you wanna roll? Hey, cool, hey, we're gonna use strength, I get that, I get that, we're gonna use strength, that's the way it works, that's part of the game, that's why we work out, right?

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  I get that we're gonna go fast, I get that, that's cool.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Jocko Willink?

  But you wanna just go level nine psycho, cool, that's it's not gonna work out good.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and

• 1:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Just cruise, man, have a good time.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  I'm a huge advocate of cruising, for sure, um, but I'm I'm I support like guys going hard.

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Even like young guys, I mean, like where where this guy

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  But but the thing is, this guy is saying, how does he stop it?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Jocko Willink?

  The way you stop it is by relaxing.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:16:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm full supporter of people going hard.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  You know, and I go hard.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Jocko Willink?

  Right? I go, I

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Yes, you're right.

• 1:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, I train hard, for sure, but um, like if I don't know you

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Jocko Willink?

  And you wanna just go level nine, cool, we'll go level nine, but you know.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all it's all the the spectrum of of jujitsu and also, I get it though, like, you know, he doesn't want marks all over his face all the time for, I mean, to me, you don't even have to say because of work, you just say, I don't want marks all over my neck and my face all the time, you know.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  That's weird, cuz that's actually what I do want.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  You kind of do, it's cool, but you know how like, okay, so I don't wear a mouthpiece anymore, so every once in a great while, like, I'll bite my tongue

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that sucks.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  And then you can't eat for a few days, not that good, yeah, it's or you ever get your jaw

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  You're kind of exaggerating, but. You can't eat for a few days. No, it hurts to eat ketchup.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Salad with Italian dressing really hurts.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  It stings, yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  That's more, you're right, you're right. Eat for a couple, that's exaggerating. But, or if you get like a jaw, like this is what I'll get, my common one, you'll get your jaw whacked, like by a knee or something, incidental stuff.

• 1:17:35Jocko Willink?

  Side hurts real hard, real bad.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can't bite down on that side.

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't like that.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you kinda can't eat for like a week.

• 1:17:41Jocko Willink?

  You can.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  You gotta, you gotta drink through a straw.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Anyway, um, but, so yeah, I get it, but just like how you said, man, it's that ego and I'm in support of ego. It's kinda what gives jujitsu and doing jujitsu its luster. Really, the guy like, guy going, like, what if I roll with you and I tap you out, but you were not going hard at all? I don't wanna do that. I'd rather get tapped out by you every single time than tap you out when you weren't going hard. As far as like my jujitsu.

• 1:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Journey kinda thing. Yeah, but, but at the same time, like, bro, if you don't want that beef, if you don't wanna go with some big guy going hard, Brad just say, sorry, bro. I mean, no disrespect, the main concern is not disrespecting the guy. Like, you know how you, I've asked people to roll and I know I'm maybe a little bit more big or whatever than like the average guy.

• 1:18:31Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  So I'll ask someone to roll and they, they won't even answer, they'll just look away. Straight up look away. And I'm like, okay, I, I really gotta kinda understand, okay, maybe they just don't want that beef and they don't know how to say it to me respectfully, you know?

• 1:18:45Jocko Willink?

  I've never had anyone like look away, that's weird.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a time.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  You asked them?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  I, okay, I asked a guy to roll and he acted like he didn't hear me and looked away. I went to the next guy of standing up to, maybe that kinda helped, didn't help my situation, but whatever. Um, I asked the guy right next to him, same exact thing, he acted like, oh, he was kinda in a conversation. And then, I mean, I got a little bit frustrated, I said, I said, so no one want, no one's rolling here. That's what I said. So that's what we're doing, everyone's saying that no one's rolling. And then like someone rolled into me, I think, whatever, a little while ago.

• 1:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:19:21Jocko Willink?

  The intimidator.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  No, but here's the thing, here's the thing, of course, at the time, it's a little bit frustrating and this is kinda part of the point where. If they didn't want to roll because maybe whatever I was too big and they were like small or something like that then you can tell the guy hey respectfully like I don't want to roll with you I fear injury I fear whatever I fear marks on my face or whatever bro no problem I dig it and I understand even if there's no one else to roll with

• 1:19:47Jocko Willink?

  But you're saying have the respect to tell you the truth

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  That's the thing

• 1:19:50Jocko Willink?

  Cause your ego needs the little pump of like they're scared of you

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Wouldn't that be the opposite though nonetheless that's that's the thing though like that's what you have to in my opinion you have to address this like

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing the other thing about this and I cause I may have the that being said like if someone wants to roll with you if you're a healthy human being man get it on that's you know what I'm saying

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  That's what I was saying at when that happened

• 1:20:17Jocko Willink?

  I get it if you have a situation and this is one that I need to I always have to watch out for like if I have a let's say I'm injured and let's say I normally do ten rounds nine rounds eight rounds like that's my normal training

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  dang

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  and and when I'm injured I'll be like okay I'm only gonna do like four rounds I'm only gonna do five rounds but then someone's like let's get one more

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  yeah

• 1:20:40Jocko Willink?

  and that's the hardest thing for me is to say no because my instinct all the time is like oh someone wants to roll let's do it let's do it let's get it on you want to roll with me let's get it on

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  yeah and so and I yeah again this is all part of it and to and this is a total opinion or philosophy or whatever but yeah that's how it should be that's what I think too that's how it should be you know like if I ask you to roll and you're just sitting there during the rolling part of of training and you're just sitting there essentially waiting for someone to ask you to roll really that's what it is

• 1:21:12Jocko Willink?

  right

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  you know and you'd like turn your head then why are you here like you're only gonna roll with the smaller guys

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  And I was like hey man I gotta tweak knee I can't roll anymore today man you're good with that

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  fine yeah hundred percent

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  You go home and like I chucked that up as a win against chocolate

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Yep that's what I would do hundred percent but yes no I I'm talking about being selective with Who you roll like I won't roll with him because he'll tap me out. I won't roll with him because he goes, he goes hard and I'll get tired.

• 1:21:38Jocko Willink?

  I wanna roll with the toughest people.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. And again, that's like your philosophy and I agree with that. But if you're like being selective, like that guy's too big and advanced, he might mess me up. Look, if you're, if you're concerned about actual injury, that's one thing. But if you're like, like basically the situation that I explained I was in, and this is what, this is what I think, given all the, all the information I kinda gathered from the situation. They didn't want to roll with me cuz I was maybe, I don't know, big or intimidating.

• 1:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Were you higher belts than them?

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:13Jocko Willink?

  That's really weird then.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  No, but see, and that's what I thought too. I was like, well, maybe then why are you here?

• 1:22:18Jocko Willink?

  If you're a lower belt, if you're a lower belt and you're smaller, you have absolutely nothing, no shame in getting tapped out by a big dude that's a higher belt than you.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  That's what I was saying. I, cuz I was talking to my brother and Greg about it.

• 1:22:30Jocko Willink?

  Did you do a breath check before you went in there or something? Maybe a gi check? Maybe you just smelled really bad and no one wanted to roll with you?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  No, bruh, because the fact is I did do those checks. I do them every single time. That's why I know. But I talked to my brother and Greg about this.

• 1:22:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  I was like, I was trying to be understanding, you know, but at the first part of the conversation.

• 1:22:48Jocko Willink?

  Did they roll with Greg Train?

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no. I don't think Greg was there at that time.

• 1:22:52Jocko Willink?

  You might, you might, you might underestimate Greg Train. You might be like, oh, just roll with this little guy.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Nah, you see his ears, you're like, I want that beef. I was talking to them at like the next day or something. So they weren't there, but um, so Greg was saying the same thing as you. He's like, nah, nah, you don't do that stuff. Why are you even here then? You know? But Jade brought up a good point. He said, well, it doesn't matter why you think they should be there. They're there, they pay their membership and they're there to learn jujitsu. They have the right to train with whoever they want and they have the right to not train with whoever they don't want to train with.

• 1:23:24Jocko Willink?

  Charles with the free will.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Right, it's true. And that, but that, that very thing applies to this guy right here.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  Casting etiquette out the window, Jade Charles.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. And that, that's kind of the counter argument, which is legitimate, by the way. There is the etiquette of the mats. It's like,

• 1:23:38Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  It's like if you go to a 24 hour fitness gym or whatever, you're the guy, you're not, I mean. Now nowadays they have a sign that says re-erack your weights, but you know, there's certain things that you just, you just gotta do for the etiquette.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  You know, you know Akbar, you know Akbar?

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  Akbar, yeah, he's a beast, right? And he fights at one fifty-five, so he'd walk around at one seventy, strong.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Not scared to.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  But you know, he and I would have wars, wars, total wars, every single time, mayhem. And we had a pact always. Is that I will roll with you no matter what, no matter what is going on, I will roll, I will, I will roll with you. And it was always like he'd come in, for, for me, it was, you know, I'd roll in from either work or I'd be done training with a bunch of people and then he'd show up. Or for him, it was he'd be done with like a crazy sparring session. But yeah, so I was, I always told him, no matter what, I'll roll with you. Because, and the reason I told him that is because I didn't want to roll with him. Because it was always freaking hardcore. It was always, because he moved all the time and he was so strong and so fast and bony. And his submissions are savage.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  And he was a guy that I was like, I didn't want to roll with him. And that's exactly why I made a pact with him that I would always roll with him.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it is, it's a siege to roll with it and there's guys like that. And you know, like, you know, it's funny, you know, Taylor and Andy, by the way, they're like that if you make it like that. But if you don't, well, you might be different because you're kind of in a different position. But when you roll with them, if you start to go light, they'll just go light, the whole time, by the way. But if you turn out the heat, then they'll turn out the heat and it's like boom. But yeah, that's, that's a big thing where like some guys, man, you're like, okay, I gotta get mentally ready to do this, you know, because they, they just bring a lot.

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  And depends how your game matches up with them. You know, your game matches differently with different people.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true too, big time. But yeah, this guy, this, this guy, um, you know, does it normally leave you with lots of marks? Not really, I think you're right. And but the more, the more, you know, ambitious, hungry, uh, white belts you roll with, with the gi, yeah, the more marks.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  The more your ego forces you to fight them as if it's a death match. Level nine.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very true. And then do people go full speed? You know what, fifty fifty maybe?

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, no.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Technically, it's awful speed, right?

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  That's the thing. Like, can you cruise? Like, I always do a warm-up, one warm-up round with Andy. No one else. With Andy and Dean, Dean won't do a warm-up round with me because that's when he attacks me with full strength. Andy is awesome and we always do one round just to break a sweat. We're just cruising and then the next round we'll go. And when we go, I mean, we go.

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  I guess maybe there's some gradation at the high end of the spectrum and I will recognize a difference between that. Like, let's say, for instance, you say, like, I'll know I don't want to let Andy pass my guard today, right? Like, for like a legit reason. Like, I think he's got some new offensive move that I've seen him pulling off. And I go, well, if he gets this position on me today, I'm gonna be in a real bad situation. So, he's not passing my guard. So then he'll feel like I'm going harder.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:54Jocko Willink?

  Because a lot of times, you, oh, you passed my guard? Okay, cool, whatever. Now you're across side. Now I'll try and escape that. What, you know what I mean? It's, it's, that's like when you're competing, when you're, when you're, when someone is competing with you in jiu-jitsu. Especially with the gi, it's so noticeable in a competition how hard they grip everything and how you can't get a millimeter of movement that, that you don't have to fight for.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  So you can't simulate that in, you can't simulate that level of intensity on the mats.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Jocko Willink?

  That only comes in competition.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very hard.

• 1:27:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, on the training mats.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  But in a way, and I talk to Greg about this a lot, where it's kinda, you know how like someone's being super stubborn, like, what? The day I was talking to him, this is what I was talking about. Like, the guy who, you get a sweep on him or something and they don't, it's almost like they're not even fighting jiu-jitsu anymore. They just want to get to their feet and stand up because they don't want to play on the bottom. Right. These guys. So, I was talking to that, him about that and that it was kind of frustrating and whatever. And he was like, hey, bro, like, that's like, that's kind of his job. His job is to like, give you an accurate representation of somebody giving you trouble in whatever way.

• 1:28:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was about to tell, that's the same thing that Jade Charles said. Like, if that guy, if you allow that guy to get to your feet, then that's bad. As a matter of fact, I went through this cycle with Dean where I realized that I wasn't giving Dean a good representation. Because every time he had some good guard passes that he would do from a little bit of a distance and... And they were working well. And then I said, well, why don't I just stand up?

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Jocko Willink?

  And so then I just started standing up. And then all of a sudden, he realized he couldn't give me that much space, which messed up that guard pass, which put us back to both getting better. Because we were improving the techniques that we were each using. So, yeah, sometimes. Now, have you ever rolled with someone that you, they're just not doing, they're, they're, they're just, they're just not engaging.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Right? They're not engaging. And that can be, that can be a little bit frustrating.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:48Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes I do that.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's part of an overall strategy.

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  It is part of an overall strategy.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  But yeah, oh yeah, 100%. Like the guy, the guy who's not, because again, this goes back to why you're doing jujitsu to begin with though. So, let's say if you're, if you're doing it like to, to compete in a tournament, a guy not engaging, that's part of your training right there too.

• 1:29:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  But if you're like, you know, if this is a fight and you know, if you like all elements and let's say, you're focusing on like a self-defense situation and the guy's not engaging, then yeah, you might as well be like, I might as well train with somebody else.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  You're right. It is good because also I've gone with like some wrestlers that they know, they're, let's say they're a purple belt in jujitsu. And they're doing a five-minute round with you. And they're just, their, their goal is to just avoid and not get tapped out. And they're not really going to roll jujitsu with you. They're just going to avoid and not get tapped out. They're not going to progress. Like, oh, they get the double leg, now they're in your guard, they're going to sit there and hold your hips.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  So they're going to sit there. So for me, what I have to do, I need to have some moves to get them out of the, out of that situation.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Got to take some ownership of that though.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like the guy who doesn't like tap some, who's strong and doesn't tap, you know? So he either forces you to like injure him or let go kind of thing.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  That's kind of the same thing where it's, it's, it's a weird dichotomy though, because like, what do you do now? Now it's kind of up to you. You know, the guy, okay, so if that doesn't tap, right? And you kind of get mad, like, you're going to force me to injure you, you know? You have to take that training as. As this realistic training where this guy is giving you a very accurate look. Where sure, you can choose to injure him, now it's on you. You chose to injure him, sure, and whatever you chose, you chose. Especially if he was giving you less of an option. Or you just let him go and understand that, yeah, I understand accurately, gotta be honest with yourself, that I would have had that submission, I could have injured him. But don't be all mad because,

• 1:30:41Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  You know,

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  That's just your ego.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  You know, you should have tapped and give me that win in training, you know, like, don't do that. You know, yeah, you gotta, you gotta keep your mind, wait, but you said, who cares? Come on, bro, come on.

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  I said that's your ego talking.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  I know, but for how you care though, I care.

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  What if someone?

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  If someone, because one time out, the reason I was talking to, well, I was talking to Greg again about it, about a guy who was wrong with who didn't want to tap. And I was mad because he was forcing me to either injure him or he wasn't gonna give me that, that win in training.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  So what'd you do?

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  I let him go. Bro, one time, and it was a white belt, he started going hard, you know how this is just another one.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  A white belt, like what, what submission was it?

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  I'm talking about another story now, I totally switched stories.

• 1:31:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying like,

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Kimura, he, the both, okay, so the, the original story of talking, talking to you.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  That's an idiot not tapping to a Kimura.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was strong, but um,

• 1:31:34Jocko Willink?

  So maybe you didn't really have it.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Bro, I, I had it, bro, it's, I'm not weak either, that's the thing. So he's strong and I'm like, okay, it's to here, it's to here, it's here. It, it didn't matter. I knew, I knew with certainty where it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to injure the person now. And you know, he didn't tap, but Greg made a good point where it's like, that's his job. You know, he's giving you an accurate look of what it's like, so. At the end of the day, sure, I could have chose to injure him and then it's partially his fault, but the thing is, I can't account for whether it's his fault or not. I'm accounting for what training I'm getting, by the way, what training I'm getting. Not come, you know, it's not a competition, it's not on the street. Switching stories, I'll make it quick, to, it was a white belt I was wrong with, he was going nuts.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  And I took it personal, back to what we were talking about earlier.

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  What belt were you at this time?

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Purple.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  So I was taking it personal, I was like, oh, how dare you try to go nuts on me, like, just doing stuff. It was all within the confines of etiquette, but he was going a little bit too hard.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Later I found out that's just his style, by the way, which is a total innocent thing. But at that time, I was like, no, I was like, okay, you want to go hard? I'm gonna go hard and I injured him. Here's the thing, I injured him with a submission. Cause I went to Kimura again.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  And not that I did it necessarily so hard that I hurt him, but he had a bad shoulder.

• 1:32:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  And I didn't really know, he was like, no, no, it's okay. I had a bad shoulder to begin with.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I've, I was gonna say I've never injured anyone with a submission, but I have injured a couple people. Uh, one of them, did I injure you?

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, my rib, man.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, but that's just rolling, right? That's just rolling. No, but I'm saying with a submission locked in, right?

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  The, the times I've done it is, I can only think of one off the top of my head and it was a guy like you said, just had pre-existing shoulder injury. That was like, that was like, ah, tap and then I'm hurt and then my shoulder's bad.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:25Jocko Willink?

  Like, bro, you're rolling with me?

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Jocko Willink?

  Tell me, and it was a, it was a black belt, you know? And I was like, bro, come on, not a guy I'd seen in a while. But I just go, you know, big, strong guy. Yeah. Got, got the career and I put it on and all of a sudden he's like, ah!

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  And injured.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  And, and I just said, bro, and it wasn't, I mean, I know the complete limitations of where it's injury or not. And I was not there yet at all.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:48Jocko Willink?

  And so he's like, yeah, I got a bad shoulder. I should have told you, you know?

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's actually why I felt really guilty because I did, I was like, oh, you want to go hard? So I did it hard. I wasn't trying to hurt him, but if he was, had a bad shoulder, which he did, I understand it hurt him. And I, that doesn't surprise me that it hurt him and I shouldn't, I shouldn't have went that hard to begin with as far as like going, I know how to do a Kimura good.

• 1:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and just kind of to clarify my earlier statements, like when somebody goes level nine on me, it doesn't mean I'm like out to, you know, I just, I just, no, I just go, I just apply level, if they're at level nine, I'm gonna apply level nine point one back to them and put them in. And actually usually I, I do something to them that forces them to calm down. Like I'll just, I'll get across side and be like, hmm, keep spazzing, keep going nuts right now. I'm just gonna be here. We're cruising. Yeah.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  At level nine point one, but just.

• 1:34:41Jocko Willink?

  Level nine point one, but completely cruising.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause they can't move, they're freaking bucking and going crazy and getting nuts and then you're just sitting there.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I still feel guilty about that day. I'll never do it again. Next question.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Hi Jocko. I have read your book Extreme Ownership from cover to cover and I learnt a lot from it. And I have a question that bothers me.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  The question is, how can I be noticed by the people? And get chosen for a leader?

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, kind of another question that I hear, you know, people get worried that if they're just kind of putting their head down and working, then they were not gonna get noticed. How do I get noticed? How do I become a leader? Stop worrying about being noticed. That's number one. Stop worrying about being noticed and keep working hard.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Stop worrying about being chosen as a leader. If your goal is to get chosen as a leader? No. Work hard. Actually work really hard and then put the team first. So all these thoughts and efforts that you have around getting noticed and being recognized, instead of having them focused on being recognized and being noticed, put those thoughts on making the team successful.

• 1:36:04Jocko Willink?

  Wow, right? Wow. Put the team first. That's what I'm saying. Right now, with this question, you're actually putting yourself, your self-recognition above the team. So instead of thinking about that, think about how you can help the team win. And the more of a team player you are, the more people will want to work with you. The more you help the team win, the more people say, "I want you on my team." And eventually, they say, "Okay, you know what? I want you to lead this team, because you want this team to win so bad. We want you to lead this team." So, that is what you do. Now, that being said, right, there's always, there's always a balance.

• 1:36:48Jocko Willink?

  Because I'm not saying that you sit back and just, and keep your fingers crossed that if you work hard, someone's gonna notice you. Now, with this guy, who's all worried about being noticed, don't worry about being noticed. You're gonna get noticed if you work hard and put your head down. But there's some people that they're, they're so... They might be so humble that they're not going to get noticed for what they're doing. So how do you overcome that? Well, this doesn't mean that you sit back and you're passive. There's a and I'll tell you the best way to stand out, or one of the best ways to stand out is volunteer. Volunteer for everything that comes up and then crush it. The crappy jobs that no one wants, volunteer for those things. That's what I used to see. I used to see the young new guys in the SEAL teams.

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  That's how you tell. You get some crappy job, you walk out to a, a group of guys going through training.

• 1:37:42Jocko Willink?

  A bunch of platoon guys, hey, I need three guys. There'd be like two new guys that would just be like, their hands would be up before you could get done saying the sentence. And you just see the look on their face. What do they want to do? They just want to win. I love those guys. They're just like, oh, I'll do that. Hey, hey, I need a couple of guys to boom, their hands are up. You don't even know, you know, gonna say, go clean the sewer out. They don't care. They don't care. They're volunteering for everything. And you know, when I got, when I got to the team, that's what I did. Volunteered for every, as a matter of fact, I volunteered to be a radioman because I'd heard that it was a really hard job that no one wanted. I was like, oh, okay, I'll do that job. You got a job that's really hard. No one wants carrying a heavy weight. You don't get to shoot it.

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  Right? You get to carry an M60. There's a major benefit to that. That is you get to unload massive amounts of firepower. You carry a radio, you're just sitting around with batteries. Kind of hardcore in a different way, huh? It is, it is. And I luckily I got, I got told two things. Number one, that no one wanted that job. And number two, that if you were a radioman, you'd go on every mission because they always need a radioman. Unless it's me, I want to go on every mission. So I'll take, I'll carry that radio. But that, that and everything, you know, you just volunteer for everything. So that's. That's one of the best ways that you can make a good impression is by volunteering for stuff and then crushing it. And eventually people look at you and they say, oh, this guy doesn't care what we give him. He's going to crush this task.

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? People like working with him because he's worried about the team. And this person seems like a, let's give, let's give him a little task, let him lead something. Cause sometimes when you volunteer for something, you're volunteering for a leadership position. Hey, I need four guys. One of those people is going to be in charge, right? For, it's not going to be four guys going equally into some thing, right? No, someone's going to be in charge. Yeah, someone's going to take charge of it. Be that person.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good. This, um, when he said, how can I be noticed? So.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  Work hard.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know how it's like, okay, that's, that's what I want. I want to be noticed, right? So you ever walk into a bar or something and a girl walks in and she, you can tell she's trying to be noticed? It's a bad look, man. So what I'm saying is you, like, if you're trying to be noticed, bro, people can see that stuff. Like, this guy's just trying to be noticed right here. And it's, and it does the opposite, obviously.

• 1:40:01Jocko Willink?

  That's, yeah, you're right. That's the hardest thing to convince of people, convince people of is the fact that if you're just, if you're just working hard, you'll get noticed. You will get noticed.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  It's like, um, you do something kind of good or whatever, brave, I don't know. Hey, look, did you guys all see how brave I was right there? You know? Yeah, bro, no one wants to see you to be a leader right there. It's like saying, hey, I'm not, hey, guys, that task, I did pretty good, right? I was really humble. No one's, no one's more humble than me. No one's more humble than me.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  Stop worrying about you and think of helping the team and volunteer a bunch. And that's, that's where you end up in a leadership position.

• 1:40:44Jocko Willink?

  Got time for one more?

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, might as well. Last question. Question for Uncle Jake from James, who's nine.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Can you be weak but strong at the same time?

• 1:40:57Jocko Willink?

  Can you be weak but strong at the same time? Yes, you can. You can, because you can be, for instance, you can be physically strong.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, you could be mentally weak or you could be the opposite. You could be mentally weak.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time physically strong and I would love to be able to put a priority on one of those and I know I've said before that knowledge is the most important thing.

• 1:41:33Jocko Willink?

  But the reality is if you don't have the strength or actually the health

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  to back that up or even to function as a human being physically, then your knowledge and your mental strength doesn't really even matter.

• 1:41:51Jocko Willink?

  So that comes into play and being big and strong is also totally useless if you're mentally weak and you quit.

• 1:42:06Jocko Willink?

  Now, being mentally strong should actually lead you to being physically strong because if you are mentally strong, then you can work and train to become physically strong.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  But if you're mentally weak, then you will not hold the line on the good foods and the good workouts and you won't get physically strong or healthy.

• 1:42:40Jocko Willink?

  So

• 1:42:43Jocko Willink?

  can you be weak and strong at the same time? Yes, but I say be strong. Train your physical strength and exercise your mental strength by doing the right things, the hard things.

• 1:43:01Jocko Willink?

  The things you know you're supposed to do.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  Do them.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  And be as strong as you can mentally, physically and emotionally for yourself, for your team, for your family.

• 1:43:23Jocko Willink?

  Hold the line.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  And be strong.

• 1:43:31Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So Echo Charles, speaking of holding the line.

• 1:43:44Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps you could hold your portion of the line here and explain to people how they can support this podcast in the event that they would like to do so.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  Sure, be happy to. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity. We'll talk about Origin, right?

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  American-made, of course, from the beginning to end, American-made. It's a big deal, actually. Also, supplements, right? Jocko supplements.

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  Wait, American-made what? What was that first part?

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Everything. I'm just, and that's like a disclaimer, like everything I'm about to talk about from Origin is American-made, straight up. So people, you've been being asked about supplements for a while.

• 1:44:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Probably from the beginning, I think.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Alright, well, here you go. Here's some Jocko supplements for your joints. Krill oil, super krill oil, so not just krill, it's super krill oil. Jocko super krill oil, boom. Also Jocko joint warfare. That's like a blend. Glucosamine? Conjoy, is it condroitin?

• 1:44:46Jocko Willink?

  Condroitin.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Condroitin.

• 1:44:48Jocko Willink?

  Which comes from, you know where it comes from? Sea cucumbers. Didn't know that, did you?

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Uh, it's actually, I think you've mentioned it, but I don't, you know. Hey, we know now, and really that's what's important. Um, very good stuff, because I would say it is the main thing. Like joint supplements, like krill oil, you know, the, these are, these supplements help me way more than any protein powder. And back in the, I used to take protein powder and, you know, these weight gainer things, and I don't even think that they helped, really. I'm not saying they don't help, but I, I just, you just don't. These, the joint stuff, krill oil, especially joint warfare. These things help you way more. And for longer, too, by the way. Nonetheless, there's also some gees on there and rash guards still, all made in America.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  From the beginning to the end. It's one thing to import material from, you know, other places, you know, and that's cool too. I get it and I dig it, but in the event of you wanting it, uh, you know, all the stuff to be made in America, boom, originmaine.com. Go on there, see what you like, get something if you want. Also, fitness gear. So I was, I was, you know, I'm into kettlebells now. I'm into other lifting too, of course, but kettlebells are a bigger part of my routine. And just slowly I kind of get more like, oh, you get stronger, you get the bigger one. I took a, I stood back the other day when I was lifting. Stood back and looked at my setup. It's pretty dope.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  I don't have like the normal kettlebells. It's like I have this one. The point is, okay, so Onnit, that's where I get the kettlebells from, Onnit. There's some other cool stuff on there, but mine are all the Primal bells. One, few Legend bells. They're like the artistic ones, obviously.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  Kind of when you sit back and you look, look at your setup, I think that's a big deal. When your setup is dope, I'm just saying. So yeah, you want your setup to be dope, go to Onnit, get their kettlebells. You can get the regular ones too. See, and they're kind of understated and I dig it, but no, man, I'm sticking with the werewolf. I got that Bigfoot one, 90 pounds. Been doing some work with that one. How big is yours?

• 1:47:03Jocko Willink?

  My biggest is 40 kilograms. That's only 88 pounds. You might be getting two pounds stronger than me.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, every single rep. So that's, that's something.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  It's not nothing. It's something. Anyway, Onnit.com slash Jocko, that's a good one. Same thing. Go on there. You like something, get something. Good way to support. Also, when you buy these books, the Jocko reviews from time to time, no book today. I understand. But you want to buy any of those books on our website, JacoPodcast.com. Section called Books From Episodes, all the books by episode. Boom, click through there when you get them. And if you happen to do any other shopping, boom, click through there, same thing, same deal, you know, goes, takes you to Amazon and you know, boom, that's a good way to support. Small action, big real, you know, just one little click. Go in there, shop, boom, good way to support, excellent way to support.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already, seems obvious, I know, but, you know, sometimes you want to listen to one or two or whatever, be like, is it worth it to subscribe? I think, I think, yeah, subscribe. You think so?

• 1:48:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I subscribe to this podcast.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. And I, I have the actual, yeah, might as well. And that's a good way to support, leave a review if you're in the mood too. Cause, I mean, it makes sense, you know, where you figure, you know, people on Twitter, they'll say, like, if something's up, like, hey, you, you know, you, there was like, like a definition, remember the, there was the, the one book I, it's, I'm drawing a blank on which book, but it was a British one.

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and there was a mistake?

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  No, there wasn't a mistake, there was the word knob. Remember we called him a knob? And I was like, what is a knob?

• 1:48:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  And then people on Twitter are like, boom, send it to me, boom, boom, boom. So it makes sense, you know, feedback, man, people were all involved, you know? So yeah, if you want to leave a review, leave a review, if you're in the mood, don't have to, of course, but if you're in the mood to. Also, YouTube, subscribe to that one, we have a YouTube channel, Jocko Podcast.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  Pretty good one. On top of the video version of this podcast, we include little excerpts from the podcast. Just little nuggets of, you know how, especially with the Q and A, it's, it's good because it's like, okay, I don't want to listen to the whole Q and A, even though I do mark them by timestamp and subject. But nonetheless, you, you know, their little, where you can kind of share it with, oh, shoot, I remember my friend who needed some advice on jujitsu rolling or how to do good in college or whatever, you know? So you can just share it with them, they don't have to listen to the whole podcast. Anyway, heck, their little excerpts we put on there. Some other stuff, do deleted scenes from time to time.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Might add another one of those. Anyway, point is subscribe to you, our YouTube channel. Um, if you want to. Also, Jocko's a store. It's called Jocko's Store. Jaco'sStore.com. On there, there are t-shirts, travel mugs. Some bumper stickers. We might be out of bumper stickers. No, no, no. We have bumper stickers. Some women's stuff on there. Some shirts, of course. With, I feel like we haven't talked about the layers on the shirts recently.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  That's really disappointing to everyone. To not hear you talk about the layers on the shirts.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Or maybe that in and of itself is a layer. Right? You just don't talk about the layers. You just let them exist.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, layers. That's a layer in its own right.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  That's what I mean.

• 1:50:31Jocko Willink?

  Layers are just there.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. So.

• 1:50:34Jocko Willink?

  That is pretty lame if you have to describe the layers.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like describing like the punchline of a joke.

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  It's not a joke. Yeah, yeah, it's just a whack joke. Either way, some shirts on there. Um, also rash guards. I think we're doing a Warrior Kid Rash Guard.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  We're doing it with Pete.

• 1:50:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice. American-made.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Warrior Kid Rash Guards.

• 1:50:56Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  One side says win, other side says learn, and the back says, "This is about everything."

• 1:51:04Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  It's gonna be good.

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  Credit. How far out are those from being released?

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Uh, we're narrowing down the cut, you know? Cause kids are, I was talking to Pete, he's like, "Kids are shaped different." They're just shaped kinda weird, so you gotta, there's some refining that kinda has to go into the shape. But yeah, that's more or less it.

• 1:51:23Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Also some, I said women's stuff, but yeah, some, uh, hoodies. Hoodies should be, should be available.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  If not right this moment.

• 1:51:33Jocko Willink?

  They're available this moment. They're coming.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:36Jocko Willink?

  Thick winter hoodies.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  Either way, and if you go on there and if something's out, which especially now, like I'm trying, I'm really narrowing down my whole process there. But if something's out of stock or whatever, there's a little thing on there. You just put your email in there. I don't, it's not a spam thing at all. In fact, a lot of people sign up for our email list, which is another thing. Like, I don't really send much. There's a point, and not that that's a good thing, but I'm saying-

• 1:51:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, sometimes I get contacted by these people.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  With their advice about stuff and I'm not not trying to say I'm like I'm not being arrogant.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:10Jocko Willink?

  But there the people that talk to me about like um uh what is it building the.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Oh, the okay about the podcast like the brand you should do more social media.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, they say, uh, you know, the one of the most valuable things you could do is get a email list. You need to get a big email list and you can hammer my stuff all the time and you and you have them forever. And I'm like, I'm like, bro, I'm not, you know, we're not here to just like hammer people with uh whatever messaging.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:41Jocko Willink?

  So, but you can sign up for it. The email list that you made, I mean, I when I put out like one thing or maybe two things on it. You put out maybe two things or three things. Well, you do one thing you do that's good is you give you this is this is where it's beneficial. If you want something, you'll find out about it earlier, right?

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:00Jocko Willink?

  And also you've let you've you've done some polling like, hey, what color of this should we make?

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And that's really what it is. It's more like a direct line like for people who like like I care like if a new item comes out. Item, something new on the store comes out or something, something super relevant like I'm not gonna be like, hey, by the way, let me just send you this. That you won't read or I don't know like I won't just I don't use it to I don't think it should be used ever. But so I don't use it to try to like keep your attention on my website, you know, it's not that. I figure I I looked at it kind of like, I don't know, I forget if I heard someone say this or not, but it was it really made sense where. You know, when you sign up for an email list, right? So a marketer, a quote unquote marketer will look at that and be like, okay, they just signed it.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Signed up to be marketed to, right? So every time I enter in my email for like, do you want updates, you know, like.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  I never enter my email for those things.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Which is kind of part of the point because you know I'm sign signing up right now to be marketing marketed to. So people are gonna sign up. They say, okay, I want to be marketed to. I'm not gonna like abuse. It's like I'm not gonna instantly violate your.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  Should I send out some email to people?

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  If, I just figure if you truly believe that like that's what they signed up for.

• 1:54:20Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, I'm saying should I send out like an email of information or something?

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so yeah, exactly, yes.

• 1:54:26Jocko Willink?

  That's what I should do.

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  If, if you think, okay, so think of me as like a person who's like, hey, yeah, I'll sign up for this email. And so I put my email in there and then, so now you're contemplating should I send them an email? If you think that that email legitimately is what I want to get from you when I put my email, then yeah, send that email. I don't even know what that is, so that's why I hardly send anything. I just figure, hey, if there's a new rash guard, especially when people on Twitter or Instagram, whatever, telling me, hey, hey, do this for a rash guard. Or hey, do this for a shirt, or when the hat's coming out, when the hoodie, you know, when's the hoodie? I've been, you know, waiting for the kid's size, small warrior kid.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  So for instance, this is a good one, you will email when the, when the new hoodies are available. Boom, you email everyone.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually I did one better where I don't even have to email everybody, because what if people are like, I already have a hoodie? So yet they're on the list, so I'll do one better. On the hoodie, on the store, when you click on the hoodie, you select the size and it's out, you can just be like, boom, put your email right there. You'll only get emailed if the hoodie gets back in stock in your specific size. Otherwise, you don't get nothing. I'm not going to bother your inbox. Your inbox is sacred. Okay, just because you gave me the key, doesn't mean I show up every day.

• 1:55:41Jocko Willink?

  We cool like that.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I think that's the way to go.

• 1:55:44Jocko Willink?

  The marketers, whoever's listening to this right now, that's, that's like, you're missing out on so much opportunity.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  To violate people's trust.

• 1:55:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're not going to violate people's trust for opportunity. Good job.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess that's what we're putting it right there. But yeah, it's good, jocko store dot com. If you look or check, check those things out, you know? If you like something, get something. Good way to support. Also, psychological warfare. If you don't know what that is, we all know what that is. Should I even mention what it is?

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, you should, in case people don't know.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  All right, it's an album, not a song album, not a rap album.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  What is it? Like a, like a... It's an album with tracks. Jocko tracks. And these tracks, what they are is, obviously you're listening to them, audio tracks, right? iTunes, Google Play, Amazon Music, anywhere where they sell MP3s. So what they are is, you put it in. When you're, when you're trying to get it, like you set a goal, you're trying to get after it, and you're having these moments of weakness. Diet, workout, getting up, staying disciplined, creating procrastination, all this, all these points of weakness that you can encounter. There's a track for one of them. Boom, you listen to it, and it's, boy, it's kinda like Jocko at your fingertips in a way,

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  where he's saying, you're like, "Hey Jocko, okay, so I have this luxury, I can call you up and be like, 'Hey, you know, tonight, I had a, I don't know, stressful day, and I still got some work to do. I'm thinking of going to Von's and getting some vodka.'" I don't want, tomorrow, I don't wanna look back and be like, "I wish I wouldn't have drank vodka, but right now I really wanna go get that vodka, and it's very powerful, and I think you'd do me some good, relieve some stress." I have the luxury of being able to call you up and be like, "Hey." Boom, and then you can just tell me, explain to me pragmatically why I shouldn't do that. "Thanks Jocko." Boom, I don't get the vodka. A lot of people don't have that. Get psychological warfare, you do have that. You just put in the track.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  Boom. You'll wake up early, every single time. If you're not feeling like waking up early, you'll wake up early. Same thing with worked out, same thing with procrastination, all that stuff. Anyway, check them all out, see if you like it, get one of those. Hundred percent effectiveness. If you still slack after listening to this, I said this before, I'll say it again, there's a problem. I don't think you will, so there is no problem. There you go. Boom. That's a good one. Good support.

• 1:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Also, you can get Jocko White Tea on Amazon. Speaking of Amazon, you can get Jocko White Tea. You should drink it if you wanna deadlift more than 7,854 pounds, cuz that's what you will be able to do as soon as you drink your first sip. Guaranteed, hundred percent.

• 1:58:33Jocko Willink?

  Jocko White Tea tastes good, and makes you feel good, and it's good for you. So, get that. Books, I got some books. One of them's called Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 1:58:43Jocko Willink?

  It's for kids, but I think we can all learn from it. I know I learned from it from good old Uncle Jake. Got a book called Extreme Ownership, which is a book about leadership, combat leadership lessons learned. Also have a book called Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Just came out October 17th. Um, I'm gonna read you a little excerpt, first excerpt coming from the, and the reason I'm reading this is

• 1:59:09Jocko Willink?

  a few weeks ago, there was a mass shooting in Vegas, horrible situation. And

• 1:59:17Jocko Willink?

  I deal, talk about all kinds of different things in this book about my life, things I've learned. And one of the things, one of the sections in here is called Immediate Action Drills. Here we go. Back to the book, but we can't always avoid high threat areas. And sometimes the high threat area doesn't avoid us. In the world today, conflict and danger can occur at any time, anywhere. So it is important to maintain situational awareness at all times. Pay attention to your surroundings. Look at suspicious people. Look at unsuspicious people. What are they doing? Where are they going? What are they looking at? Assess. While you assess, think of contingencies.

• 2:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Where is your closest escape route? Where is the closest cover and concealment? Cover being a place to shield you from bullets and concealment being a place to hide. If you are maintaining situational awareness, you should be very hard to surprise. If you sense something is going wrong or you sense a threat, proactively move away from it. Walk to the other side of the street, accelerate your car, walk out the door. Don't wait for things to get worse.

• 2:00:32Jocko Willink?

  If you do get surprised and are caught in a bad situation, act.

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  If you can run away from an assailant, do it. If you can't run because they have a hold on you, attack them. Put all your training to use as quickly and as violently as possible. As soon as you can break free, do it and run. If shooting starts, get down. Call the police at the first opportunity. If the shooting is single shots being fired at a slower pace, run immediately and keep running. If the shooting is rapid fire, find some solid cover to get behind. Wait for a lull. When the lull comes, run. That may be your only chance.

• 2:01:21Jocko Willink?

  If you are trapped in a room with an active shooter outside, barricade yourself. If there is no, if there is an ideal hiding place, hide. If not, prepare to attack them as soon as they enter the room. Get anyone in the room with you onboard and ready to swarm the attacker. So those are some notes from where to start. And again, you can take training for those type of situations to a very high degree. But if you have no training, you need to know what to do in those situations. That's, that's why I put that in there. Um, you know, I will read this one more little section because I get asked this all the time.

• 2:02:05Jocko Willink?

  I'll just, the beginning of the section, dealing with injuries and illnesses. What are you? You are going to get injured. You are going to get sick regardless of how careful you are in your training, how clean you eat, and how healthy you live, you are still human. Injuries and illness will occur. My theory for overcoming injuries and illness is simple. Do what you can. If you are sick or injured, don't use that as an excuse to skip workouts or stay in bed all day. Do what you can. Hurt your knee, work your upper body. Work the good leg. Hurt

• 2:02:48Jocko Willink?

  your shoulder, time to work on one-armed pull-ups and push-ups. Focus on your core and legs until your shoulder heals up. Tendonitis from using the grip too much? Sound like it's time to focus on sprinting and jumping plyometrics. Got a little cold, flu? Same thing. Do what you can. Maybe it's just going for a walk, a couple sets of sit-ups and push-ups, but don't just stay in bed all day. So, go on to talk about some more of that. This book is called Discipline Equals Freedom. And if you want to help spread the word on

• 2:03:29Jocko Willink?

  this, go and buy from a local bookstore, like an independent bookstore, because when they sell these books, they report it in such a way that it helps the book get recognized by some of the bigger media outlets. And when it gets recognized by some of those big media outlets, like the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, that helps spread the word even more. And I think that the word that's in this book should be spread because I think it's going to help a lot of people. And I think it's going to help them live better, healthier, and more productive lives. So, you can get that book, Discipline

• 2:04:10Jocko Willink?

  Equals Freedom, field manual. Also, for your business, we have Echelon Front Leadership Consulting. It's me, Leif Pabbin, JP Denell, Dave Burke. If you need our services to help you, your business, your team, your leadership, give us an email, [email protected]. And if you have questions, or you have something you want to talk to us about here, you want to keep this little conversation going, you can still find us always on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on the Facebook.

• 2:04:56Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thank you to everyone for listening and supporting this podcast. We truly appreciate it. And for those of you in uniform, thanks for providing the blanket of freedom that allows this podcast to be possible. And for the first responders that protect us at home, that drive and run towards danger.

• 2:05:30Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for keeping us safe and to everyone else out there on your mission.

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  To succeed, to conquer, to get better, to win.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Keep training. Keep fighting, keep working and striving and grinding to do more than anyone thought you could, more than even you thought you could.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  Keep your eyes on the target, your head in the game, and keep on getting after it.

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  So until next time. This is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:06:15Jocko Willink?

  Out.