195: Take Everything Thrown Your Way. Keep Going and Keep Giving. w/ Rob Jones

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:37 - Rob Jones. The new battle. 1:58:11 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:15:11 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:51:10 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 195 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  How much?

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  How much is enough?

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  I mean, how much does a person have to give before they can say that they've given enough?

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  I think that answer is different for different people. There are some people that don't give very much at all.

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  Maybe they give just enough to be called a participant at best.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  And some people don't even get there. They aren't even in the game.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  But then if you go to the other end of the spectrum, there are other people who give and give and give and make sacrifice after sacrifice. And that still isn't enough.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  They remain ready and willing to give even more, to make more sacrifices, sacrifices that many of us can't even comprehend.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  And then they look up and say, what else can I do?

• 1:32Jocko Willink?

  These are rare people.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  And it's an honor to have one of those people here with us tonight, one of those people who has served with honor.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  Deployed repeatedly to war zones in Iraq and Afghanistan, a man who suffered devastating wounds.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  Lost both of his legs, but that didn't stop him.

• 2:03Jocko Willink?

  He never felt sorry for himself. Instead, he used the pain to make himself stronger and tougher and better.

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  And he represented America in the Paralympic Games, bringing home the bronze medal for rowing. He rode a bike across America from Maine to California to raise money for veteran causes, but that still wasn't enough. So to raise even more money and raise more awareness for veterans charities, he ran 31 marathons in 31 days. And yes, you heard that correctly, 31 marathons in 31 days.

• 2:48Jocko Willink?

  But he decided that he still hadn't given enough.

• 2:54Jocko Willink?

  And after his, all this, all these accomplishments, his service in the Marine Corps, he still wants to serve. So now,

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  he's taking on another challenge. He is running for the 10th congressional seat in his home state of Virginia.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  Which, it might not be the toughest battle that he's ever fought, but it will certainly, or almost certainly,

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  could be the nastiest. But you know what? He is game, of course. His name is Rob Jones. He's a Marine, he's a wounded warrior, he's an Olympian. He's an inspiration to everyone that's ever met him.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  He's been on this podcast twice before, number 92 and number 116. So if you haven't listened to those, go back and do so. But if you have, well, here he is. Once again, my brother, Rob Jones. Rob,

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  welcome back, man.

• 3:57Rob Jones?

  Uh, you know, I would say that I've been asked that several times, haven't you given enough? And I always say, uh, it has, it's not going to be enough until six Marines carry me in a coffin, put me in the ground in Arlington. So I'm going to keep doing it.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  So what?

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  Led you to make this decision to make this political run? What, what, what the hell happened? Cause let's face it, signing up for politics, that, that is like signing up for just extreme punishment, extreme mental punishment of people coming after you all the time. People don't care about your, you know, the way it affects you, the way it affects your family. I mean, it gets crazy in politics. So what was it that made you say to yourself? Okay, you know what? It's time for me to do this.

• 4:58Rob Jones?

  Yeah, you know, I've just noticed over the last few years, the deteriorating environment in, in Congress and the federal government. And I just saw that we need leaders there. And the only way we're going to get leaders there is if leaders step up and they put themselves into that arena, take the risk of, you know, being under fire from these people. You know, kind of hearkens back to, I think I talked about this last time. When I taught, I talked about proof the lane, kind of how I was, uh, you know, when you, when you're searching for IEDs, uh, you have to go out there and you have to step on the ground and make sure that there's not an IED there. So you just kind of step on it and if it blows up,

• 5:43Rob Jones?

  well, guess what? There's an IED there. If it doesn't, you get to take another step. And what I learned from that is that, uh, in Afghanistan, there's every, every single day, and Iraq too, every, every single day, there are times, countless times where somebody has to step forward and do the dangerous thing, do the difficult thing for the good of everybody else. And life is no different. And, you know, politics is no different. Somebody has to step forward and take that risk, enter into the arena if we want to see meaningful change. So. You know, in with respect to what you said, I'm just trying to continue my service in that way and have the best impact I can.

• 6:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's definitely a different kind of minefield, but it's a minefield indeed that you're stepping into. And I think one of the things, and you and I were talking about this earlier, when I talk to people and I talk to, I do pretty good in talking to people from all different kind of political viewpoints. But one thing that I I've seen, and I think this has a lot to do with kind of where we've gotten to this completely divisive culture in politics, is that people lack humility. Like, the normal person that years ago would have said, oh, well, you know, let me hear you out. Now, that person, a normal person,

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  you can talk to him, and they they're, they lack humility to say, you know what, maybe this person has a viewpoint that makes some kind of sense. Maybe there's some portion, instead of thinking, you know what, I am 100% right. My, my political viewpoint is 100% right, which means that your political viewpoint is 100%, 100% wrong. There's no value in anything that you're gonna say, you're 100% wrong, and I'm 100% right. And that's the the line is drawn. It's not even like, oh, the line gets drawn. The line is drawn that, and it starts with, hey, I'm 19 years old, or 26 years old, or 38 years

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  old, and everything that I believe is 100% right, and that means everyone else is 100% wrong, unless you agree with me. If you agree with me 100%, you're okay. By the way, you've seen it on both sides. Somebody, if somebody makes a step outside of the traditional views of the left, or the traditional views of the right, these are people that are on the left or are on the right, they get shredded by their own side. Because everyone's attitude is, I am 100% right. You don't know anything.

• 8:24Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, and. Well, we have to remember, we have to be aware of with the humility piece is that nobody actually knows for sure. Nobody does.

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Rob Jones?

  We have evidence, we have theories, but we don't know what's gonna happen when we pass, you know, some legislation. You can see that over the course of the entirety of our country's history, we pass a little bit like, oh, this is, this is what it's gonna do. It's gonna do this, this, and this. Pass the bill, and then that, that, and that happens. You're like, oh, unintended consequences. There's no way to predict it. So, we have to go in there with the best knowledge that we can and all the preparation that we can. But, you know, keep in mind that we don't actually know everything. And we also have to remember that, that person that disagrees with you, uh, they just, they're just coming from a different perspective from you. You know, they, you have to, what it really boils

• 9:18Rob Jones?

  down to is you both want the same thing, I think, usually. If you disagree with somebody, you both want, you know, the American people to have the best lives they can and have the most meaningful lives they can. Uh, you just wanna go about it in a, in a different way. And so, as long as you can maintain that attitude, like this person, really, they want the best for these people. Um, and then you, that's how you can kind of just disagree with them in a civil manner.

• 9:45Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. What was the, who put the idea in your head? How did that, that, who, did someone plant the seed? Did you sit in there watching TV, watching somebody speak, and you were like, no, I gotta get in this game?

• 9:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah, you know, it was just, uh, yeah, it popped into my head like a lot of these other crazy ideas that I have, you know? You're just out one time, and, and, you know, a lot of it has to do with, I thought of the idea initially, uh, when I was training for the month of marathons. So, you know, kinda always trying to think ahead of, you know, what's the next thing gonna be, what's the next thing gonna be? And I didn't do the month of marathons to prepare me for, for this. It was just kind of an idea that I had, like, maybe after the month of marathons is done, maybe I'll, you know, take the next step and try and do a little bit more, and I'll try and run for Congress. And so... Yeah, I thought of the idea then and then I kinda, you know, I was doing other things. I ran the month of marathons, came back, still didn't really know what to do or whether or not it was possible.

• 10:43Rob Jones?

  And then after the 2018 election, I texted a buddy that I had from, uh, from the hospital named Brian Mast, who's a double above knee amputee and I just, he ran in Florida for reelection, he won. So I just sent him a little text saying, congratulations on, on winning. And he said, sent me something back saying, love to have you up here, let's talk. And I was like, you know what, I actually am, I have been thinking about going that route. He brought me into his office and kinda gave me a rundown of, you know, what it takes and what you gotta do. And he set me up with, uh, his consultants and they talked to me a little bit and like, you know what, maybe I, I think I can do this. So he gave, he kinda gave me the belief, uh, that it was gonna be possible.

• 11:23Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. All right, let, let me do this, let me dig into this a little bit because from the outside, what it looks like when we see people entering the political arena, it's like all of a sudden they just kinda magically appear.

• 11:36Rob Jones?

  Right.

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  What, what actually happens, you know, when you talk to your friend, when you talk to these consultants and people start looking at you as a potential candidate, what does all that look like behind the scenes, behind the, what do they call the sausage maker?

• 11:49Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  Right, you just eat the sausage, but you don't know what's going on behind the scenes? What's going on behind the scenes there?

• 11:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so I think the way that, I'm kind of in a unique position where I'm friends with Brian and he already had some folks that, you know, consulted on his campaign that were close friends of his and they had experience, you know, they worked on previous campaigns, they had a lot of experience, they got him elected. But I think the vast majority of the time you, you know, you approach a consultant, there's, it's just a, you know, it's, it's a position, you, you do campaign consulting, that's your business.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's how they make their money. They make their money through campaign consulting.

• 12:24Rob Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's a business and there's, you know, there's consultants all over the place for everything you wanna do in the campaign world, getting elected. So, you know, in some cases, it might just be the consultant, you know, they just want a paycheck. They think they can, you know, get a paycheck, they think they can try and help you. But in a lot of the cases, in the case here is, I think they look at, you know, whether or not you have a good story. Whether or not you, they think you can get elected, and then they kind of believe in you as well. And so I think when they saw me, and I kind of told them about myself, they said, okay, here's a good story. Uh, that we think can get traction. And then the guy's just, you know, he just seems like he's gonna be a selfless individual, and he'd be good, uh, in Congress.

• 13:10Rob Jones?

  And so those two kinds of things combined, I think, in this particular case. But, you know, that being said, there's a dichotomy, of course, on Jocko Podcast. Where there might be, you know, some people that they're just in it for the paycheck too.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  The, this is the consultants are just in it for the paycheck?

• 13:27Rob Jones?

  Sometimes, not all, I mean, I think-

• 13:28Jocko Willink?

  Or they can be.

• 13:29Rob Jones?

  Yeah, they can be. I think the vast majority of the time, you know, they, they want to get behind somebody they believe in.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  What kind of, what kind of process did they put you through for vetting you? I mean, like you said, okay, they interview, they know they have a good story. Your story's kind of public, so it's not really hard to figure out.

• 13:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  Did they get you, alright, we're gonna do a Q and A with you, we're gonna hammer you with questions, did you do all that kind of thing? Gig simulator?

• 13:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah, a little bit. Um, I, well, I met with Brian, and then, you know, so obviously he vouched for me. So, these two guys that are his friends and ran his campaigns, they, I don't think they really needed to vet me too much more after that, after Brian vouched for me. But we did meet up and we talked a little bit. And I didn't even, honestly, I didn't even know if they were gonna help me or not, I thought they were just kind of answering a few questions that I had. But then after that, they, uh, they said, yeah, we wanna, we wanna help you run your campaign. And so, yeah, I think it's just getting a feel, just getting to know somebody, getting a, it's like, you know, hiring somebody for a job. You get to know who they are, and they just decide if they want to work with you or not. And, you know, I'm lucky enough that they decided they did.

• 14:35Jocko Willink?

  And so then, so then what, what happens next?

• 14:37Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so what happens-

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  Is it a big plan preparation? I mean, imagine, they want the announcement to be a big deal, right?

• 14:44Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  So, so how did all that go down?

• 14:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so, I think I decided-

• 14:50Rob Jones?

  You know, I committed to it and we started setting things in motion. Yeah, probably in April or something like that, earlier in the year. And they said, okay, so we're gonna do an announcement. And so that's kind of a good way to get press and gets your name out there. It's all about just getting people knowing who you are. And knowing your story so that they can decide whether or not they think that you're a person that they can support. So part of that is making this big announcement because you get a lot of press coverage when you announce officially. Uh, so we kind of planned this out. You make a video. Uh, and you prepare press and you do a little bit of practice with, you know, answering some of the questions you're gonna get on announcement day. But mostly it's just about getting kind of the sausage making stuff in place too. You gotta fi- you have to.

• 15:36Rob Jones?

  There's all sorts of rules about, you know. With the FEC, the Federal Election. Committee or Commission or whatever.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, some really crazy rules.

• 15:46Rob Jones?

  All sorts of rules. So. Next thing you do is you kind of, you hire a, um. A complacency guy.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say a legal team of some kind.

• 15:54Rob Jones?

  Like somebody that knows. How these things work and then you kind of prepare the paperwork to file. And then you get all these, you kind of get your apparatuses in place. So once you announce.

• 16:03Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 16:04Rob Jones?

  Boom. It's like an assault.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  So some of those rules, uh, that you have to be compliant with, like you can only take a certain amount of donations, right? I mean, what there's, and they have to come from certain places?

• 16:14Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so. Individuals can only donate twenty eight hundred dollars per election. And then if there's a primary and a, a general election. So that's fifty six hundred dollars per election cycle. But if a person donates fifty six hundred dollars now, I can only use twenty eight hundred of that. For the primary and then the other twenty eight hundred. I can use in the general election. There's all sorts of rules. And then you can't take money from, uh, corporations. Unless there's, you can take money from a, a PAC, Political Action Committee. They can only donate ten thousand. And then. There's things called super PACs. That are kind of their own entity. You can't talk with them. They can support you, but you can't talk directly with them.

• 16:59Rob Jones?

  So you can't like plan things out with them, but they can kind of pick up on what you're doing in your commercials and your advertisements and they can kind of intuit what they should do to help your campaign. But you can't work directly with them. So yeah, there's also, and then usually what you'll do is you'll fly me out and you'll pay for a really, really nice hotel.

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  So you're talking about, when you're talking about you, you're saying Jocko podcast.

• 17:22Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 17:23Jocko Willink?

  Come on before it's like, hey.

• 17:24Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we, we, we fly you out here.

• 17:26Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Jocko Willink?

  And pay for your hotel.

• 17:27Rob Jones?

  Treat me real nice.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, get you dinner or whatever.

• 17:32Rob Jones?

  But since I'm coming and I'm talking about being a political candidate, if I want, if you, if I wanted you to pay for the, for my travel out here, then you'd have to do like some kind of in kind donation paperwork and all sorts of stuff. So. Yeah, there's just all of these different rules. So you kind of have to have somebody that you can send an email to really quick. Can we, can we do this? And they say, you probably shouldn't. Or they, and they handle the, the filing of the paperwork and they do all that and they handle all my donations that come in. So there's so many rules with donations. So all the donations, if it's a check, they go down to this guy where he is, he reviews it, make sure you have all the stuff. Like over $200, people have to report their employment information and that kind of thing.

• 18:16Rob Jones?

  And then, so he makes sure you have all the stuff and it's like, okay, this is a valid donation. We donate that. And then if one comes in without the right stuff, then he's like, this is invalid and you can't have it.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  How big is the staff that you have? I mean, this sounds like.

• 18:30Rob Jones?

  I mean.

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  A decent sized operation.

• 18:33Rob Jones?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, and right now it's kind of a skeleton crew for the most part. I have my consultants. Uh, who have been with me, you know, since, uh, before I even announced, we have the compliance guy. Uh, we have digital consultants that kind of do websites and. They kind of handle some of the digital fundraising stuff. And then I have an individual person fundraiser. So there's somebody that.

• 18:58Rob Jones?

  Knows, has a lot of personal connections, has experience raising money, you know, for political campaigns and other stuff. So I have her. And then she kinda helps me raise, with the raising money. And then I also have, uh, the compliance guy. Um, and then eventually, you kinda bring on more and more people like a campaign manager and as time goes on. Uh, but yeah, so you kinda, right now, we have a skeleton crew and then we're just gonna keep building and building.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  And, and they're obviously raising money is, is

• 19:28Rob Jones?

  Unfortunately.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  That's basically how you get elected. I mean,

• 19:33Rob Jones?

  In a way.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's gotta be a giant percentage of the mechanism that gets you elected. So, if you don't get, if you don't raise enough money, you don't even get the platform to say what, for people to hear what it is that you're gonna do, what you're gonna say, what your, what your beliefs are.

• 19:48Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Jocko Willink?

  So you kinda have to get this money raising machine moving.

• 19:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah. So it's more, it's more, uh, more for some people, less for other people important. So, the better story you have, the less money you're gonna need to get your story out there. And you know, I kinda have an advantage where people have kind of heard of me, you know?

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Rob Jones?

  Uh, people aren't coming up to me every day and, you know, asking who I am, uh, or anything. But when somebody hears the guy that ran 31 marathon, it's like, oh yeah, I know that guy. And then, so I can kinda put the face to that, to that name. Uh, but yeah, so the, the big part of it is people knowing that you're running, knowing you exist, knowing enough about you to decide whether or not they wanna vote for you. And so you have to look at how will help you, how do people get their information? They get it through watching TV, they get it through doing, uh, through reading the paper, they're going online, podcasts, you know, things of that nature, Facebook ads, things like that. And so, all those things

• 20:54Rob Jones?

  cost money. So if you wanna, you're not gonna go up to, you know, my district has 800,000 people in it. And if I went to every single house for 10 minutes, that's what, 8 million minutes? There's just not that many minutes. And so, you have to-

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Man, you should've run your 31 mar- 31 marathons around in circles around your hood.

• 21:15Rob Jones?

  But yeah, so it's like, how do people get their information? And that's, that's the way they do it. All those things, they cost money. And in the DC area especially, they cost a lot of money. And then, in order to get your face and name out there at the most optimum time, the most efficient time, it costs even more money. If you want to have your ad on, you know, during Fox News or, or whatever in the morning, that costs a lot more money. So, yeah, so unfortunately, it's one of those things that you have to raise the money in order to, just to get your name out there so people know you exist.

• 21:48Jocko Willink?

  So what is the, what is the process from here on out? What does it look like? I mean, take me all the way, well, as, to the best of your knowledge, what happens next? So you're, you're, obviously you spend the next however many months raising money to get this thing going forward. What does the rest of this time look like?

• 22:04Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so.

• 22:04Jocko Willink?

  Like, what are the big milestones along the way?

• 22:06Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 22:07Jocko Willink?

  That bring you to election day victory?

• 22:10Rob Jones?

  Uh, yeah, the money raising now. So kind of your first quarter that you raise is kind of a bit of an indicator, like if you raise enough money in the first quarter, that a lot of people kind of use that as a gauge on how much of a chance you have. And so that's kind of something. So you want to get, you want to have a good raise in your first quarter.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  When, when did your first quarter start?

• 22:32Rob Jones?

  July 1st. So it's, it kind of goes on the fiscal quarters.

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 22:35Rob Jones?

  So July 1st to September 30th. So we're kind of coming up to it. And then I'm kind of at a little bit of a disadvantage because we did our announcement on the same day that I got wounded, which was July 22nd. Kind of to make the announcement a little bit more special.

• 22:46Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 22:47Rob Jones?

  And so we kind of.

• 22:47Jocko Willink?

  So you gave up.

• 22:49Rob Jones?

  Gave up like three weeks, yeah. And so, yeah, so that's one milestone. And then while you're doing that, uh, you're raising money, raising money, and then at the same time.

• 22:57Jocko Willink?

  How's it going first quarter right now?

• 22:59Rob Jones?

  Uh, it's going pretty good.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  Are you where you want to be?

• 23:01Rob Jones?

  Um, it's been a little bit difficult because there's a lot of different factors. It's summertime, so people are, you know, on vacation. There's also a, a local election in Virginia coming up. So a lot of people are kind of more focused on that. They're not really focusing on next year yet, understandably so. And then at the same time, I don't, I'm not a politician. You know, I have no political apparatus before this. And a lot of people that run for office at this level, you know, they've ran for county seat, then they run for state seat, and they run another state seat. Uh, so they have, you know, people that have donated to them consistently over the years, so they can kind of go back to these people. Over and over again, every time they have a, an election.

• 23:44Rob Jones?

  So they have those people that have already donated, they can raise money kinda quick. I don't have that.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Rob Jones?

  So I kinda have to build that donor base from scratch.

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  The, the other thing that I must imagine is a little bit weird is like, learning how to ask for money.

• 24:00Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's, I, I, I know I feel weird asking anyone for help at anything, right? Like I would rather just do something myself than have to say, hey, can I help? Maybe that's an ego thing, a little bit of,

• 24:10Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I don't need anyone's help. Maybe it's an ego thing of, hey, I don't wanna give that person the, the little one up on me.

• 24:17Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 24:17Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't wanna, that's, but, but also, you know, it's just like being self-sufficient, right?

• 24:22Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Jocko Willink?

  And not wanting to ask for a handout. I mean, even when we started this podcast, there was, the whole, the whole, uh, what is it? Like donation thing was out there, right? It was out there, it was kind of a thing and you, and there was a lot of people that that's how they were running their podcasts, was by just taking donations. And we, we actually still have like a little thing where you can, you can donate. We have something on the website where you can donate through PayPal or something like that. And we've had a couple of people that have, like, that have done that, but we've probably talked about it twice or whatever. Like barely ever, cause to me, it feels kinda weird to say,

• 25:01Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  Hey, hey, can you give me some money, right? And, and honestly, when, when we first started trying to, when we were first talking about, how we would get money to buy what we're do, to, to support what we're doing. I said, you know, well, maybe we just make some t-shirts, you know? And you're like, yeah, we can make t-shirts all day. Cool. Cause that way, we're, you know, we're, we're not just saying, give me something, right? We're saying, hey, you buy this thing and it helps support you.

• 25:31Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta, you had to overcome the, The idea of I'm gonna ask people for money.

• 25:39Rob Jones?

  Yeah, it's extremely, it's very, very unpleasant. And yeah, so what you do first is you go to friends and family. And you say, look, I'm thinking about, that's another one of the rules. You can't say, before you announce, you can't say you're actually running. You can only say, I'm strongly considering running for Congress. Would you donate if I do decide to do this? Even if you've already, you know, decided that you're going to. You can't actually say it because then you technically you have to file. So all you can say is, I'm, you see, so you go to your mom, your dad, your close friends and family. I'm strongly considering running for Congress.

• 26:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm laughing because in my family, those are the last people you'd be asking for money. I don't ask my, you know, that's not happening. We're getting zero from friends and family.

• 26:25Rob Jones?

  My first two calls were my dad and then my mom.

• 26:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's nice.

• 26:28Rob Jones?

  So they were, yeah, they were supportive. And then you just kind of slowly call through your friends and family. Like every phone, every phone number you have on your phone. You're like, so I started with kind of people that I talk to regularly. You know, would you donate? And they say, yes. And then you kind of just go through.

• 26:44Jocko Willink?

  And that's kind of weird too, because now you're like asking the question, but not even closing the deal. So now you're gonna go back.

• 26:50Rob Jones?

  You have to go back to them.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  What's the purpose of saying that? What's the purpose? Just to, do you go back to your consultants and say, hey, listen, I'm getting a, I'm getting a 50% feedback that people will donate?

• 26:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah, well, the thing about asking people for donations is I had, I had a good buddy. Uh, named Frank, that I called him, I, I texted him or called him or whatever beforehand. I said, I'm thinking about running for Congress. Will you donate? He's like, oh, yeah, definitely. I will definitely donate. And then I'm saying, okay, well, we're trying to do, I get everybody to donate on Monday. We want everybody to donate on Monday because we want to raise a bunch of money like on day one. So that's kind of a thing in the political sphere. You'll see like, I think recently, um, a couple of the Democratic presidential candidates, they announced and they said, oh, and we raised hundreds of thousands of dollars on day one. And people are like, oh, they think that's really cool. And it's kind of a big deal. And so I say, trying to get everybody to donate on Monday, July 22nd. You know, if I run or whatever.

• 27:44Rob Jones?

  Uh, so then my fund, I gave my fundraiser all the text messages that I contacted. She sent them all a text on Monday reminding them, here's the link. And then this guy Frank, he didn't donate. And then, so I called him again, you know, a week later, like, hey, just wanted to remind you, you know, I've announced now raising money. And he calls me back a couple of weeks later and he says, okay, I finally donated. And I said, and he, he, he, uh,

• 28:10Jocko Willink?

  Now quit calling me.

• 28:11Rob Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, sometimes. Uh, and he runs the rowing program for UVA, the men's rowing program. And so he has to get a lot of donations. I said, so what, you got any, uh, got any tips for me on, on raising money? You know, how to ask for money? I'm not very good at it. He said, listen, you gotta remember, I'm a close friend. And it took me three weeks and three reminders to donate to you. So you hit somebody up the first time and they want to, they, they want to support you, but you just hit them, you know, when they're about to get in the car or, you know, they're take dropping their kids off at school or something like that. And they just forget, you know? And so you gotta remind them again. And then, so you kind of have to make sure you hit them at the right time where they're, okay, I'm just sitting around

• 28:52Rob Jones?

  watching TV or whatever, I'm eating dinner, I can do it right now. So you kind of have to just keep following up with people. Um, so you, you, uh, friends and family first. And then once you get through all that, then you start kind of calling people that have donated previously. So you kind of, you can get these lists.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm sitting here trying to think if you, if, what you hit me up for.

• 29:16Rob Jones?

  I didn't hit you up specifically.

• 29:17Jocko Willink?

  You hit me up, I think you said, hey, I'm gonna run, or I'm thinking about running for Congress. Maybe I could come back on the podcast. And I was like, oh, absolutely.

• 29:26Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 29:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think, I don't think you actually hit me up for the cash, though.

• 29:29Rob Jones?

  I didn't hit you up for the cash because friendship capital, like, I don't like leadership capital.

• 29:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 29:35Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I figure you're kind of already helping me out. So you, you've helped me out so much already with, have me on, you know, before the month marathons, after the month marathons and all that stuff. And now you're gonna help me out again with this podcast. And I just kind of figure, you know, I don't want to ask too much of you.

• 29:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, right on. But you're not gonna get anything if you don't ask.

• 29:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  That's all I'm saying over here. Not to mention that.

• 29:55Rob Jones?

  That's the other thing you have to remember too, that you have, you have to ask, even though it's uncomfortable. Um. So yeah, then you start asking.

• 30:04Jocko Willink?

  Can you sell product? Can you sell a T-shirt and, and use that, the profits from that?

• 30:10Rob Jones?

  I don't know. I don't, I'm, I'm not sure. I'd have to, I'd have to ask.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  What about personal money? Like you always hear about these rich politicians, they just can spend a bunch of money.

• 30:18Rob Jones?

  You can sell a fund as much as you want. So you can donate to your campaign as much as, as much as you want. But if you're doing, I, I don't, you know, I don't have enough money anyway. So it wouldn't really be a drop in the bucket for me to donate all my savings.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  Selling carrots from a farm isn't.

• 30:31Rob Jones?

  It's not enough carrots to pay for this. Uh, we just started getting eggs. So maybe that'll be, you know, something that we can add to it. But, uh, yes, I simply just don't have enough money. But yeah, there's some, there's some people that take mortgages out on their homes. And they kind of loan the campaign 200, 300,000 dollars. And then, uh, they get paid back after they really start raising money. I can't do that either because I don't have a mortgage on my home because it was given to me by a wounded veteran charity. So there's a mortgage and I can't take out a mortgage for five years as a part of our contract. Uh, but yeah, so you ask the people close to you, they donate.

• 31:12Rob Jones?

  And then you start kind of going through these lists of people that, uh, have donated to campaigns before. They're politically active. A lot of the times they have a little bit more cash to spare. You start calling them, but that's unpleasant too, because a lot of the times it's just cold calls. And you go, you know, you have to have a little script.

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  Is this your team doing this or is this you?

• 31:29Rob Jones?

  This is, yeah, this is me. So when my fundraiser, uh, she just basically just sends me call sheets. So she gets these lists of, it's, it's all publicly available if they donate over a certain amount. She just goes online, they, oh, they, they donated to this other Republican candidate or this other Democratic candidate. So they might like you. So you just kind of, and there's a bunch of phone numbers on there. And a lot of the times it doesn't work or it's like a main number to their business. And you kind of have to go in and go into the directory and call it. And you call them up and you just go, you know, you do your little 20 second spiel.

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  How many of these phone calls have you made?

• 32:06Rob Jones?

  Oh. And it's like, my schedule is nine to 11, campaign fundraising phone calls, work out at 11, eat lunch at 12, uh, one to three, make phone calls.

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing from 4:30 in the morning until nine?

• 32:20Rob Jones?

  4:30 in the morning until nine, usually 4:30 to 6:30, I'm, uh, cutting, sawing logs. And then, uh, seven is usually when I start, I'll start reading, or I'll start doing some writing, kind of fleshing out my thoughts on things.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Rob Jones?

  And then between seven and nine, cause you can't call people before nine o'clock at their.

• 32:39Jocko Willink?

  So, so, so nine to 11, you're making phone calls?

• 32:42Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  And then you said from one to three, you're also making phone calls?

• 32:44Rob Jones?

  Yeah, if I have enough.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  You're just hammering through a list?

• 32:45Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so my fundraisers will send me 20, 25 at a time, and these lists, and you just kind of look at it.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  What's the contact rate?

• 32:54Rob Jones?

  Uh, very low.

• 32:55Jocko Willink?

  If you make a hundred calls, how many people do you talk to?

• 32:58Rob Jones?

  I'd say maybe 10, like directly when I call, 10% tops.

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, the, the chances of you have of me picking up a phone from a number I don't recognize is zero.

• 33:11Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  It's zero.

• 33:12Rob Jones?

  And a lot of the time, what you do is you call, and the vast majority of the time, you're calling their place of work. And so they have an assistant, and so you have to kind of, you know, you have to, you have to kind of craft a little script, almost, that gets them to, that kind of intrigues them. And it has to be short, cause it can't be too long. Oh, when I first started out, I was doing like this 30 second, okay.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  Let's hear it.

• 33:38Rob Jones?

  All right, so I'll ring, ring, ring, I'll call Echo, ring, ring, ring.

• 33:41Jocko Willink?

  Hello.

• 33:42Rob Jones?

  Oh, uh, hi, this is Rob Jones, uh, I'm calling for Mr. Charles.

• 33:46Jocko Willink?

  This is him?

• 33:47Rob Jones?

  Oh, hi, Mr. Charles, my name's Rob Jones, I'm a wounded Marine from Middleburg, Virginia. And I'm calling today because I'm running for Congress in Virginia's 10th district, and just hoping you might have a few minutes to speak with me, uh, about my campaign, to see if you might be willing to support me.

• 34:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Rob Jones?

  And that's what I say.

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pretty straightforward.

• 34:05Rob Jones?

  And that's it. Yeah, so I kind of, and it's been kind of, and your fundraiser, they're kind of good at that. So they can advise you on what to say. And so I kind, when I first started out, I kind of had like this minute long monologue. They're like, hello, hi, I'm Rob Jones. And I ran thirty one marathons in thirty one days. And I did all this stuff. And then like by the end of it, you know, it's, they haven't spoken like a minute and a half.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  Bro.

• 34:27Rob Jones?

  So you gotta bring that down.

• 34:28Jocko Willink?

  When, uh, when Leif and I wrote Extreme Ownership, and we did our first event that the book was at, and it was a big event. It was like, maybe a thousand to fifteen hundred people there. And we got done, we got offstage, and they had a bunch of books for us to sell, and people were gonna buy, and then they could, we could sign them. And as soon as we got offstage, it was like mayhem. Everyone was really fired up. And here's this brand new book, and the big messages just come from us. And so the, they got the two little tables for us to sign on. There's a stack of books for us to, to, uh, give to the people. And the very first

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  person, and you know, Leif, like, the joke is that Leif is like a nice person, and I'm not, right?

• 35:16Jocko Willink?

  And so the first, and immediately, as I looked at the line, this was, you know, one of the, this is, this is like, one of the few things that I'm naturally gifted at, like, looking at a scenario and kind of figuring out really quick what needs to happen to, to get this done. So I see people lined up. And I say to myself, all right, I need to be signing these books as fast as humanly possible. So I immediately start signing the Extreme Ownership book, just Own It, Jaco. That's, that's all I'm writing.

• 35:44Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Jocko Willink?

  So I get like two, three people, hey, how you doing? Nice to meet you, Jim. Jim, Own It, Jaco. Boom, hand it to Leif. Boom. Uh, next person. I get through. Five or six people and, and all of a sudden there's all, there's a, there's a, there's a roadblock right next to me. His name is Leif Babin. And he's such a nice guy that, you know, he says, hey Jim, how you doing? Where about you from? And you know, the person's like, I'm from wherever. I'm from Maryland. Ah, you know, I went to naval academy up there in Annapolis, man. What a beautiful. So, you know, what, what do you do for a living? And then he's having legit conversation and then he's writing,

• 36:21Jocko Willink?

  you know, Jim, so good to talk to another person that, you know, grew up in the fine state of Maryland and appreciate the support that y'all gave us when I was up there going to naval academy. And I hope that everything goes well with your business. Appreciate it. Uh, lead and win.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  And man, it, it took him, it was like, it took him by, by the time he, I had handed him the, the, the, you know, 17th book and he wasn't done with his first one. He just, he started writing lead and saying, carry on. But yeah, you know, it's like the, the, the, the ability to really be nice in a situation like that.

• 36:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  Is a little bit tougher. And also, you know, people, you don't want to waste people's time. You know what I mean? You gotta get to the point. Like you said, you gotta get, you gotta get your, at least the initial message of, hey, this is who I am and this is what I'm doing. And do you want to talk about that a little bit?

• 37:13Rob Jones?

  Yeah. And I, it's, it's a strange balance because I want to, I want to keep it short, but also say something that makes them give me the benefit of the doubt.

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 37:23Rob Jones?

  So it's kind of figuring out what that is. And I decided saying I'm a wounded Marine running for Congress. That was kind of a good balance of that.

• 37:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's a big statement, right?

• 37:31Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Jocko Willink?

  You were in the Marine Corps. You obviously have served. You have made sacrifices for your country already. And now you're willing to serve more. That's a pretty big, that's a, that's a short statement, but it's also, it carries, there's a lot of meaning behind it. There's a lot of weight behind it.

• 37:47Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so I'm still sitting here thinking to myself, from a efficiency perspective, you don't have some other three people that are dialing through and being like, "Okay, Rob, we got a live one," boom, and handing you the phone?

• 37:59Rob Jones?

  Not really. I mean, sometimes my fundraiser will have relationships with some people. And she'll say, "I've already talked to this guy. You just gotta call him and talk to him for a couple of minutes and he's probably gonna donate." But, yeah, I guess, you know, the way that it works is people probably aren't gonna talk to you if you don't call them directly.

• 38:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm gonna tell you what, don't ever, I'll donate to your campaign. Don't give my number to any of those lists. I don't want anyone else calling me.

• 38:27Rob Jones?

  Well, depending on how much you donate, yeah, depending on how much you donate, you just put Victory's phone numbers, or put, you gotta put a phone number in there.

• 38:36Jocko Willink?

  At some point, and I'm gonna try and tell this without without dropping any dimes on anyone or anything, but anyways, there was a an organization, and it's not really a charity organization, but somehow, I had donated money to this organization a long time ago. And so they would call me consistently all the time. And when they would call my house, I would put them on speakerphone so my whole family could be entertained by what I would say to them. But anyways, they called one time and they say, "Oh, this is, we're looking for Mr. Willink?" I say, "Yeah, this is, this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And we're, you know, it's fundraising time again and we're looking to up the numbers this year.

• 39:21Jocko Willink?

  And this is when I got him on speakerphone and I don't, I forget the years it was, but the girl says, "And I'm looking at your, our records right now and it looks like the last time you donated was eight years ago and you donated $10." And I was like, "Yeah," I said, "why don't you call me in another eight years and we'll re-up that thing," or something like that, so. Yeah, don't get my name, don't get my number on that list.

• 39:46Rob Jones?

  I wouldn't, I would never give out anybody's phone number, but if they don't, if they donate... And they report it, then they put their own phone number in there and that's how you get it. Um, yeah, so that's, that's kind of where people are coming from with. They get donation calls all the time. And I'm just another guy. So you have to figure out how to make yourself unique and get through that kind of guardedness. In the very beginning that, you know, they're, they're automatically probably going to say, no. You know, I get, this is the 50th call I've gotten.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 40:17Rob Jones?

  And I'm busy. I'm calling them at work and these people, a lot of the times, you know, they're a little bit wealthier. So it's not like they just got all their wealth by sitting around watching Netflix. You know, they are working, they're working hard.

• 40:31Rob Jones?

  Uh, so yeah, you kind of have to figure out a way. And a lot of the times it'll be, I'll talk to an assistant. And then she'll say, well, no, they're not available or they're not here because they're working. And I'll leave a message with her or I'll leave a voicemail on their phone. And then I give it a week. If I have an email address for them, I'll send them a follow-up email. And you can be a little bit more verbose in an email. So I kind of like that where I'll, I can kind of mention the 31 marathons and be a little bit more verbose there. Send them a follow-up email. If they don't reply to that, then I'll call them again. You just kind of have to, you have a spreadsheet of people you call and you're like, call them. Okay. I called this person 10 days ago, so today's another good day.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  And what's weird to me is you could call a billionaire who goes, oh, I absolutely want to support you. You, I'm, I got your back a hundred percent. I was in the Marine Corps. I was wounded as well in, in Korea or in Vietnam and you got my support. And the, all you can get from this way is a hundred bucks.

• 41:22Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly. So it's really, but yeah, and some other elections, like in state elections. If a billionaire likes you, he can give you a billion dollars if you want, but federal elections, you can't do that.

• 41:34Rob Jones?

  So yeah, that's, it's, and it's tough. So you gotta call and call and call and call. And then you gotta do stuff, you know, to get your name out there and.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  At some point, will it be, will someone else start? Making calls for you?

• 41:47Rob Jones?

  Not really. I mean, so Brian, who continues to help me in a lot of different ways, he'll make calls. Like, he has donors that he goes to. And so lately, he's been making a few calls to their donors, to his donors, and saying, you know, let me tell you about this guy, Rob Jones. Will you consider talking to him? And they say, yeah, sure, have him call me. So then I call them. So in a way, yeah. And then if, yeah, I mean, if somebody knows somebody that they think would be interested in speaking to me and donating to my campaign, they'll call them. But a lot of these people, uh, nobody knows. And so, and a lot of the times, my fundraiser, she'll set me up with people that are more likely to, she thinks are more likely to donate. Like, I've called several Marines.

• 42:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:30Rob Jones?

  You know, or other veterans. And, yeah, and so they have that connection with me immediately because we're both veterans. So they're more willing to talk to me.

• 42:39Jocko Willink?

  It seems to me like it would be a good idea to get someone else to call for two reasons. Number one, efficiency of your time. But number two, it's kind of like, it's easier for someone else to brag about you than it is for you to brag about yourself.

• 42:57Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, for someone to just call up and say, hey, how you doing? My name is Jocko Willink, and I'm actually not calling for myself. I'm calling for a great friend of mine that is a former Marine. He was wounded in Afghanistan, and he's actually not done serving yet. He's running for Congress here in the great state of Virginia. And I was wondering if you could maybe help out or are interested in supporting what he's doing. Like, it seems like that would be kind of a good way to do it.

• 43:26Rob Jones?

  Yeah. No, I agree with you. You have to have, you know, outside the box ideas like that.

• 43:31Jocko Willink?

  Because the instinct is, well, because my first instinct is, oh, that's awesome that you're doing it yourself. Like, that really shows, like, if you personally called me, I'd be more apt. But then I thought about it, well, maybe, but someone else calling me and saying, hey, this guy's running. He's a great guy. It's sort of a, it seems like that would be helpful as well. I'm not trying to be your campaign manager. So the consultants, hey, back off, everyone. If you're getting all mad at me right now.

• 43:57Rob Jones?

  No, I totally agree.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing? Tell Rob not to do that?

• 44:00Rob Jones?

  Yeah, no, I think, I think the main difference. Um, it's probably that the fundraiser kinda knows that these people might not go for that kinda thing. But what you're talking about, I think would work great on kind of a more of a grassroots level where you're trying to call a lot of people and get smaller. Donations and that's kind of important too. You wanna get all those donations as well.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so right now you're going after the big hitters.

• 44:24Rob Jones?

  Yeah, you kinda go like the, these calls are people that have donated, you know, a thousand dollars in the past, five thousand, that kinda thing. Uh, so those kinds of people usually wouldn't.

• 44:34Jocko Willink?

  It's so weird the way these mechanisms work.

• 44:36Rob Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  In the world, like this is, you, you set up a system and you have no idea, like you know, you said earlier, you, you make laws, but you don't actually know. What they're gonna do when they hit the books and when they start getting enacted in the world. This is one of those things, like whoever made these laws probably, or these rules. Or when these rules were made, people had no idea. How it was gonna turn out, what it actually, what that actually translates to in the real world.

• 45:05Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  And one of my favorite examples of that is going through officer candidate school. In officer candidate school, there was things that you did at officer candidate school that had no, there's no possible way. That the intention of the drill instructors was to have you doing what you're doing. One of the examples is you get a belt buckle, you get a belt buckle that. Has a coating on it, it's like a shiny brass belt buckle, but it's got a coating on this shiny brass belt buckle. That, cause you know brass turns green or whatever real quick. Well, you get this one that's been treated in such a way that it never will get, it just stays shiny all the time. I mean, you can get thumbprints on it if you stick your finger, although your thumbprint, but you can easily wipe it off.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, you, what you do is you have to clean these belt buckles with Brasso. Until that lining comes off completely. And then you end up with a thing that you have to constantly polish all the time and it doesn't hold its shine. And you think to yourself, at some point, someone said, hey, make sure there's no fingerprints on your brass belt buckle. And so people started cleaning it and then they started cleaning it until the actual finish was off.

• 46:14Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Jocko Willink?

  And now this thing has become, become a totally different game, right? The game is no longer just keep your belt buckle clean. It's go completely psycho with, with, with Brasso until the thing is.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  Is not even functional anymore. I mean, when you get done with oxygen at school, you throw that thing away because it has no purpose.

• 46:35Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Jocko Willink?

  They didn't mean it that way. At some point, somewhere along the way, a drill instructor said, hey, you got a thumbprint. Make sure there's no thumbprints on your, on your belt buckle. And it went from that over however many thirty, fifty years to you polish all the finish completely off that thing until it's just pure brass. You get all these weird things that happen like that.

• 46:56Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Jocko Willink?

  And that's what this is. You know, it's this environment that's created and all of a sudden you've got these, these potential candidates or candidates that are running that are jumping through these random hoops that have been built by random laws that were, that seemed to make sense to somebody at some time.

• 47:14Rob Jones?

  Yeah. Well, they're not entirely random, but it's, they have, they have, you know, purposes and theories behind them. They want to prevent corruption. They want, they want, you know, politicians to be bought off or anything like that. But then you're never going to think of absolutely every single contingency that could possibly happen. And then so you have the, you know, these are the rules. And then, you know, human beings, we have these big old brains that we can adapt to and we, people figure out, you know, ways to maneuver and, you know, this is what you get. And then so you're like, okay, well, you can't do this and this and this. And they, well, they just do it a different way.

• 47:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Rob Jones?

  So you can, you know, you, you create the best system you can, and then you just have to let people, you know, you obviously always try and improve upon it, but you just have to live within that system.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Do you guys do like a, like analytics to see, hey, how much are we getting from the callings there? I just feel like door to door cold calling like is just as time goes on, it's like less and less and less effective.

• 48:16Rob Jones?

  Yeah. Um, well, yeah. So we, we keep track. So like everybody that I call, I put in a spreadsheet. And I talk, you know, I put in there the results of the call, what number I called, you know, what day I called them. So I can kind of look back.

• 48:33Rob Jones?

  And then, yeah, so we kind of know, and so we can kind of analyze that. But kind of as you, as time goes on, a lot of the times it'll get easier to raise money. Because people see that you're raising money and success, breed success, so they'll check and say, oh, this guy's already raised $200,000 or whatever it may be. And then, oh, okay, so he's a viable candidate now, so I'm actually going to donate him. And another reason that's kind of hard right now is because we have, you know, there's going to be a primary and a lot of people don't want to support in a primary because these people have money, they want to invest in something that they think is going to, you know, be fruitful, so then there's no way to know. And so that's why you kind of have to get your story out there, you have to kind of convince them, you know, why you're a viable candidate and why they should support you and

• 49:17Rob Jones?

  it's not, it's not the most pleasant thing to have to do and it's not the easiest thing to do, but the more you do it, the more I'm kind of getting used to it now. And I'd rather ask a stranger for money than, you know, ask a close friend for money, for sure.

• 49:31Jocko Willink?

  So then what's the, okay, so we get, we get through this first quarter, ends in September, then what's, what, where does the campaign go from there? Do you have any idea or are you just kind of like on board for the ride?

• 49:43Rob Jones?

  I have, no, I have an idea of where it's going to go, but yeah, I'm not an expert, it's my first time, so.

• 49:51Rob Jones?

  At the same time as you're raising money in these early stages, you are getting, just getting out and talking to people, going to events. And it's like I've been going to Republican committee meetings and introducing myself, like a lot of the times they'll allow candidates to come up in the beginning and speak for a few minutes and just so that they know, you know, I introduced myself. And then, so you're kind of building that network of people that know who you are and you're creating a little bit of buzz and you're meeting people. And I go out and I talk to board of supervisors on counties and I just kind of talk and mayors and that kind of thing. And I just say, I just sit down and what are the, you know, what are the issues that people are talking about here? And Northern Virginia is always traffic is like number one.

• 50:32Rob Jones?

  And so I just say, well, so what are people talking about? And I just kind of get details on that because these people kind of know, you know, they know the people on a granular level because they're local representatives, so they can kind of tell me. And then you kind of look at that and then you can kind of see, okay, most of the people are talking about this. And this and this. And so you kind of get a feel for that. And then at the same time as you're doing that, you're doing a lot of, you know, research on policy. So you got to read up on, you know, all these different issues that you're finding out that people care about. You got to figure out, you know, what they are, what you can do to change them, what you can do to improve them. And that kind of thing. So you're kind of doing all these things simultaneously. And you just kind of go on that trajectory.

• 51:15Rob Jones?

  Raise money, meet people, learn policies.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  When's the primary for you?

• 51:20Rob Jones?

  Uh, so Virginia's kind of unique in that they, every year, they kind of decide how they're going to select candidates, the Republican Party does, how they're going to select their candidates. So they just recently decided that they're not going to do a primary. What they're going to do is call a convention. And so they're going to have this convention in the 10th District. Uh, sometime next year. They haven't set a date for it yet. It'll probably be springtime, spring, maybe early summer, yeah, probably late spring. And what they'll do is they'll bring in all these delegates from all over the counties. The counties send a certain number of delegates in. And what they'll do is all the candidates that want to try and be the, uh,

• 52:05Rob Jones?

  the Republican candidate, they'll get up and they'll speak in front of the delegation. And then the delegates will go vote. And then if they don't have over 50%, if one person doesn't have over 50%, they'll knock off the bottom one or the bottom two, and they'll vote again. And they'll keep doing that, keep doing that, keep doing that. And then at the end, they'll send white smoke out of the the top of the building. Uh, no, but they'll have, so eventually it'll be one person versus one person, and somebody will get the majority. And then that's the person.

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  That's it right there.

• 52:36Rob Jones?

  And

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  How many other people are going in the 10th District against you? Do you know?

• 52:40Rob Jones?

  Right now, there's one. Uh, one other guy, Army veteran. Uh, but there's always rumors. I mean, there's always other people that, you know, come in. And so there's rumors about other people that are thinking about coming in. But until they file, you don't know. It's just conjecture. Um, so now that this just got recently decided on the 5th. So now that we have that kind of a situation, that's good and bad for us. Um, you know, unlike Musashi, I have no preference. I'll just do whatever the system is. That's what it is. Okay, cool. We're gonna adapt to that. But, uh,

• 53:16Rob Jones?

  It's good for us because it requires less money. So you don't have to go out there and do commercials for the primary and that kind of stuff. You don't have to do a lot of advertising. You can save all your money for the general election. And when you're running against an incumbent, they already have millions and millions and millions of dollars. So you're going to be coming from a deficit compared to them. So that's good. I can kind of save a little bit of money. Uh, but it's also a little bit more difficult because now you have to go out and you have to kind of, you have to find out who the delegates are. And they make a list of it, but you have to kind of talk to these delegates. And you have to convince them why you're the, you're the best person. If you don't have, make a good impression on this one person, well, they might not, you know, that's a vote lost.

• 54:00Rob Jones?

  And so there's only so many delegates that you can talk to. So yeah, it's kind of pros and cons with it, but that's what we're doing. And so that's what I'm adapting to, and that's what we're gonna, that's what we're gonna make happen.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  And that's not even, we don't even know when that's going to happen right now.

• 54:14Rob Jones?

  It'll be in spring, yeah.

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay, spring of 2020. Do you get, will you be making a speech at that thing, straight up?

• 54:22Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, I think so. That's what I've been told anyway. Um, I guess they, they have to come up with all the rules and everything of how it's going to work. Well, I guess they have rules in place, but they have to like release them so you know. I'm sure there's, you know, you have to file as a candidate and all this stuff, you know, at the, at the convention. But I think what the, what the guy told me that I talked to said is that they're going to do it where each person gets up and gives a stump speech before they start voting. But a lot of the work is going to be done before, ideally you will have all your votes before you even ever give that speech. You're going to do the legwork. It's kind of like, you know, this is actually something that Pam says. And she's a, you know, four time world champion, two time Paralympic champion.

• 55:06Rob Jones?

  So I should probably listen to what she says about, uh, competing. She says, uh, the race is won not on the day, but in the months and years that you spent training beforehand. So you gotta put in the legwork, talk to these delegates, and you can even convince friends of yours to go try and be delegates. So you can kind of

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 55:29Rob Jones?

  You know, get a team together.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  I like that move.

• 55:30Rob Jones?

  Yeah. Get a team together to go there and try and become delegates. And they're your friends, so they'll vote for you. So you have to kind of do that legwork in order to hopefully win the, the vote before you even give your stump speech.

• 55:45Jocko Willink?

  This is, uh, one, one of the things I was thinking about as, you know, when we start talking about politics and in your case in particular, one of the things that comes up all the time in politics is gun control and all those issues. One of the things I was thinking about is your, you went to Virginia Tech.

• 56:04Rob Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  April 16th, 2007, there was 32 people killed in a mass shooting there.

• 56:09Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Jocko Willink?

  Were you on campus when that happened?

• 56:13Rob Jones?

  No, I was, uh, I was in my apartment.

• 56:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you were.

• 56:16Rob Jones?

  Yeah, it was during my senior, senior year. So I was there ish, but I was in an apartment off campus. I just lived there. And when we got the first reports, uh, it was kind of like, they were just saying that somebody was roaming around campus, you know, shooting people. So me being, just, you know, graduated from boot camp not too long before. So I like immediately, I'm going to go over there. So I, you know, I walked over to campus to see if I, without any kind of protection or anything, to see if I could find this guy or whatever. Walked around a little bit, but you know, I didn't see anybody because you know, it was all happening in the building and it was all over by the time I even left my apartment. And yeah, so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't there, there, you know, I was nowhere

• 57:00Rob Jones?

  near the, the, the shooting, but I was there for the, you know, the aftermath and the, you know, just the pain that we felt as a community after the fact.

• 57:10Jocko Willink?

  What was the, what was the, uh, atmosphere afterwards? I mean, what'd they do with the students at school? Did you guys, what do you do with a, you know, a test you have on, on Wednesday? Just like the basic life stuff?

• 57:25Rob Jones?

  Yeah, it's, it's just disbelief. You know, you can't believe that it happened at all. Uh, and you can't believe that it happened to you, you know, to your community. And

• 57:39Rob Jones?

  Yeah, it's just one of those, I think they, you know, they, they just have to give you time. They give you, they give, you know, gave everybody the week off. Yeah, the school, I think, did a really good job of supporting the students, in my opinion. You know, they said, no pressure. They actually came out and said, if you want to, you don't have to finish the semester if you don't want to. You can just cut your grades here and your teacher or your professor will, you know, have a grade for you based on what you've done to this point. And you don't have to, uh, you don't have to finish the year if you don't want to. And so they gave them that option. They had, you know, support available to, to anybody that was, you know, was struggling with, with dealing with the situation. They made that available.

• 58:22Rob Jones?

  You know, memorials, it's like, there's not a whole lot, you can't, the only, the thing that everybody wants you to do is go back in time and have somebody tackle that guy, you know, before he ever did anything.

• 58:36Rob Jones?

  You know, not to make it about me, but the way I felt about, I felt, I felt guilty that I wasn't in the building. You know, that's how I kinda felt about it. Like, maybe I could've

• 58:46Rob Jones?

  been in one of those rooms and ran at the guy and, and, I don't know, given, given people some time, you know, like a lot of people did. You know, there was one professor that was a Holocaust survivor, slammed the door, blocked it, and I think he had his students crawl out the window or something. And he gets, you know, he got killed by the, by the shooter. And so that's kind of how I felt at the time about it. Uh, I wish I'd been there to maybe do something. But it's mostly just, you just, you know, you just can't believe it. It's, it's kind of indescribable.

• 59:17Jocko Willink?

  It's an interesting idea of giving, uh, when you first said, oh, they, they gave people the option of, of just taking their grade right there, whatever it happened to be at that time. And then you don't, don't have to finish the semester. And at first I thought to myself, yeah, that's a really good idea. And then as I thought about it, sitting here as you were talking.

• 59:34Jocko Willink?

  That what what that does, what that could do to people is, okay, now what are you gonna do? So now what do you do?

• 59:39Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Jocko Willink?

  You sit there and you start to dwell on this and you that seems to me like a good idea that in practice, the best thing to do, not the best thing to do, but well, I think it's the best thing to do. Is okay, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna get a week off, right? Maybe we're gonna get two weeks off, but we're gonna get a week off. We're gonna hold ceremonies, we're gonna mourn, and then we're gonna get back to work and we're gonna carry on. And be because otherwise you're stuck with just the thoughts of the loss that you've suffered. And it's one of those weird things and you know, when you say, when you say that you that you need to move on, right?

• 1:00:25Jocko Willink?

  It sounds like the coldest, most horrible thing that a person could say if you, if someone loses a loved one. And you look at him and you say, well, you know, you've got to move on, right? And and that's like, that seems like the most horrible and cold thing to say.

• 1:00:42Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you've lost a loved one, but guess what? You gotta move on. It that sounds so horrible.

• 1:00:49Jocko Willink?

  But it's it's kind of what you need to do, right? I mean, you it's what you need to do. Your your loved one that you've lost, they don't want you to sit around and mourn for seven months while you wait for the semester to end for summer to end. And then you go, what are you gonna do during that time period?

• 1:01:06Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Jocko Willink?

  And so that's a rough thing to think about. But I think it's

• 1:01:14Jocko Willink?

  it's definitely one of those hard things that you have the hard conversation that you have to have. And sometimes you have to have that conversation with yourself. Is when you say to yourself, or you say to someone else, you gotta move on.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  And it seems so cold and heartless, but at the same time, it's what you actually do have to do.

• 1:01:36Rob Jones?

  Yeah, and yeah, I never actually thought about it from that perspective in terms of, you know, them allowing people to.

• 1:01:43Rob Jones?

  To, you know, cut the semester short, but yeah, that's a really good point. You have to have something to do. Otherwise, you're just gonna sit around and just think about it all day, all the time.

• 1:01:53Rob Jones?

  But at the same time, you know, they didn't want people's grades to be affected by, be negatively affected by, you know, tragedy like that. So you can kind of see where they're coming from for sure.

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Tough decision to make, tough decision to make.

• 1:02:07Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  You know, another thing that that's that I've definitely thought about since you, you know, entered into this arena is thinking about, thinking about Louis Pollard Jr., right?

• 1:02:20Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Jocko Willink?

  Running for, running for the House of Representatives in the first district of Virginia. He ran as a Democrat. He, as we know, lost the election and he lost it to basically a Republican kind of warhawk.

• 1:02:38Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  That had the draft deferment multiple times. So, so didn't go to Vietnam, but was kind of, you know, a warhawk type guy.

• 1:02:51Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:51Jocko Willink?

  And one thing that's really interesting when you read, um, Fortunate Son, is that there was all these opportunities that Louis Pollard Jr. had to kind of start negative campaigning against his opponent and he didn't do it. And he ran that campaign with as much dignity and class as you, as a, as a person could run.

• 1:03:17Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  And, and he lost and he lost by a big, big margin too. I think he lost by like 25%.

• 1:03:23Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  Which is crazy to think about.

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  Are you thinking about right now what it looks like where, where your own personal line of?

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Hey, this is too far and I'm not gonna go there?

• 1:03:39Rob Jones?

  You have to, yeah, you have to maintain your moral compass and you want, I want to win, but I want to win in the way that I set out to win. I don't want to win by being somebody that I'm not. I want to win by being the person that I am. And then if people want that person to represent them in, in Congress, then I'd be honored to do that. But if the person I am, the people decide that they don't want that in Congress, you know, fair enough. I understand, no hard feelings. I still love this area, I still love the district.

• 1:04:12Jocko Willink?

  This is where you get into a little slippery slope possibility.

• 1:04:15Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  Because here's the question you can ask yourself is, listen, I'm Rob Jones. I know I want to do the right thing for the right reasons. In order for me to have that possibility, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to get a little bit medieval on some people here, right?

• 1:04:32Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  And, and you think, okay, as soon as this is over though, I'll go right back to, you know, being on the moral high ground. But if I, if I stay on the moral high ground this whole time, there's, I might not even get there. So I need to position my, like, there's a slippery slope there. Where you say, no, I gotta make, I gotta, I gotta run this negative ad. I gotta do this, I gotta make this statement about my opponent, right? That stuff, or, or I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get the publicity that I need to win. That's a slippery, that's a slippery slope.

• 1:05:06Rob Jones?

  Well, that's, yeah, that's the, uh, the gray area that a lot of elections are, are won and lost in. And, you know, maybe we should write a book after this called The Dichotomy of Politics. You know, and it's just, yeah, you have your, you know, kind of so-called default aggressive type of opinion or position on that default, you know, good guy or whatever it may be. But then, yeah, you have kind of some gray areas there where, yeah, if the election's going bad and you feel like this person is really gonna be bad for the country and for the district, then you might have to do something that you wouldn't normally do, but you kind of maintain that moral compass even with that.

• 1:05:48Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:49Rob Jones?

  So you take it to a certain level and then you dial it back. You don't do it again and you don't let it kind of slip away and keep doing it. So you kind of have to take every situation as it's your own unique situation and kind of step out and then step back.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:04Rob Jones?

  Step out and step back as needed, I guess.

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  I think that in the end, with situations like that, what you have to maintain above all is you have to maintain the truth.

• 1:06:16Rob Jones?

  Mm.

• 1:06:17Jocko Willink?

  Right? And if you maintain the truth about what's happening, I think in the long run and oftentimes in the short run, hey, if you're telling the truth about what's going on, that's what will make you win.

• 1:06:30Rob Jones?

  Yeah, very true. Yeah, you can kind of go negative, you can say something that's bad about the other person, but you can just say, oh, well, this negative ad is, uh, this person voted for this bill that did this.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:06:43Rob Jones?

  And that's kind of going negative, but it's not, you're not insulting them as a person.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  And you're telling the truth.

• 1:06:49Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  You're not making something up.

• 1:06:50Rob Jones?

  That's a good, that's a good way to approach it. I'll let you know how it goes when I start having to make those types of decisions.

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Rob Jones?

  Hopefully, it's so obvious that I'm going to win that I won't even have to make those decisions, but we'll see.

• 1:07:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, and that's the other weird thing about politics is, you know, I used to think of the officers that were in the military and most of the time, much of the time, the officers that you wanted to work for were the kind of officers that didn't really...

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  Care is not the right word, but I'm not sure how to explain it. Didn't really, they weren't all jazzed up because they were an officer. Yeah. They were jazzed up to work with the troops. They were jazzed up to serve the country. They weren't, they weren't doing it for their own career, right? And it's the same thing with politics. If you think about the type of people that you would actually want to have in political power, one of the main reasons why you would want them in that position is because they would never want to be there. Yeah. They're the type of people that say, well, there are people like you that say, hey, listen, this is not what I want to do, but this is kind of what I have to do. This is the void of leadership and, and, and someone needs to fill that void. Yeah.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  So there's another kind of dichotomy there that the person that you would actually want in that position is the person that fundamentally in their own heart doesn't really want that position. Yeah. And you, you end up with, and it's sort of like in, in Man's Search for Meaning, the book about the concentration camps. And he says that the best of us didn't make it. The best of us didn't survive. Because the best people in the concentration camp, the purest and most good people were the people that said, hey, you take this crust of bread instead of me. Hey, you take, I'll step up and do this labor that's going to push you over the edge and make you sick.

• 1:08:53Jocko Willink?

  I'll give you my blanket at night because we only have one for, for four of us and you're the one that needs it the most. Those good people, they didn't survive. And that's kind of, it's kind of what happens in politics, or it could very well, it happens in many cases in politics where the person that won't cross that line, the person that doesn't just look out for themselves first, that's the person that doesn't win because they, they didn't go negative, they didn't mudsling, they didn't undermine. And, and they end up not winning. So this is a, a tough situation, but I think what's good is,

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  I think there's more opportunity now, and I think there's a lot of things out there that level the playing field. And I think one of them is social media, right?

• 1:09:41Rob Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Just like this podcast, okay, you're on here, you get to tell, you get to talk about, people know your story, they hear it on a broad basis. You know, you're, you got your own social media that you can talk directly to people and there's no filter. It doesn't cost any money to put up a social media post. Now, does it cost money to advertise a social media post? Yes, it does. It does. So if somebody can dump more money into that, but at least the playing field is more level than it used to be for you to get your voice out there and not have to do slimy, shady things to do it.

• 1:10:17Rob Jones?

  Yeah. And then, yeah, with, with respect to what you're saying about, you know, some people didn't survive, you also have to wonder whether or not, a lot of the times, or some of the times, surviving isn't always the best thing. So if you have to do something to, just to survive, and it's something that's even worse than death, then sometimes you don't want to survive. And sometimes you can be fine with that. And so it's kind of the same thing with, with political. If I have to sling mud and do all that stuff, then maybe that's, maybe that's not worth it.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I, I, I totally agree. All right. You wrote a little something about leadership, and it's, I'm just gonna kind of read some chunks of it here. There's a void of true leadership in Congress. It is blatantly evident in all the modern forms of media, print, broadcast, and social. It is patently obvious that the words and behaviors of many of our elected representatives at all levels and in all political parties. One needn't look further than this void to identify the root of the rotten climate in politics that is sickening the American public.

• 1:11:30Jocko Willink?

  There's a big chunk of the American public that are sickened by that. There's a big chunk that actually just full on participates too.

• 1:11:37Rob Jones?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:11:38Jocko Willink?

  It's it's it's crazy. Um, I'm not too, uh, I'm not an active participant in Facebook. I mean, I have Facebook and I post on Facebook, but I don't, I don't get involved much in um, like the personal Facebook, right?

• 1:11:57Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:58Jocko Willink?

  But I hear stories about Facebook from people that are on it. It it's like a crazy battleground.

• 1:12:05Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Where people unfriend you if you make a statement or you like someone's political post that they don't agree with.

• 1:12:12Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Jocko Willink?

  It it's like crazy people, crazy people.

• 1:12:17Rob Jones?

  Yeah. But I like to, you know, I believe, truly believe that those people are the minority, the vast minority.

• 1:12:24Jocko Willink?

  I I agree with you and I I said this, um, I said this on a podcast interview. Someone's like, well, there's all these extremists out there. And I was like, you know what? I travel the country all the time. I work with businesses of all sizes. Oh yeah, this is Ben Shapiro's podcast. I I I travel the country. I'm all over the place all the time. I work with all these companies. I I work with frontline troops. I work with the mid level leaders. I work with CEOs. I work with everyone in the spectrum and and I don't meet people regularly that are like that. I don't know who those people are that are going crazy on Facebook. I don't meet them. I know they're out there.

• 1:13:01Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Jocko Willink?

  But yes, you're right. And I agree with you. Most people, what are they trying to do with their life? Oh, they they they're trying to earn money. They're trying to raise their family. They're trying to spend time with their family. They're trying to pay off their house. Like, that's what they're doing. So, yes, I agree that I think I will kind of retract my statement a little bit in saying that you say it's sickening to the American public. I think most people in the American public are definitely sick of it. And that's what I said to Ben Shapiro. I said, Ben, I mean, he is at. He is at, what is it called? He's at ground zero.

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  For political fire.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know, I was on another guy named Brian Koppelman's podcast and he's like the other end of the spectrum. And actually we joked about the fact, you know, I was like, if you met Ben Shapiro, you'd like him. Find he's a really nice guy.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  And Brian Koppelman's like, that's cool. That makes sense, but they're, they're completely opposite ends of the, of the political spectrum. But I, I think that those people at the far, far ends, and, and both those guys can be a little bit of ground zero for, you know, impact and people going crazy.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  There's people that like to just stir things up, right? I mean, there's people that like to stir things up.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  Most people like to stir things up in one way or another. Not necessarily politically specifically, some people politically, but in one way or another. Oh yeah, it's fun. Not to do it, but to see it happen. So some people they like to take part, you know?

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  All right, moving on with this, this piece you wrote. The legislative branch of the United States government is comprised of 535 legislators. Many of them have begun venturing down a path that can only be characterized as the opposite of true leadership. A path that displays a lack of respect for anyone with a different worldview from them. A path that involves dehumanizing and demonizing people simply because they are a member of an opposing party. Many of these legislators have stopped viewing people as individuals and have instead applied a group identity and used it to apply group blame.

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  That's a Jordan Peterson line that I kind of stole. I heard him say that one time. I thought it was a really good line.

• 1:15:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, the, the, that is a true statement. Yeah.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  And notice I said many. I didn't say all or anything like that either because it's kind of what we were talking about just now. The, maybe sometimes.

• 1:15:29Rob Jones?

  You only think that the vast majority of people are doing it because they you only hear about the people that are that are being, you know, kind of naughty or whatever. So. Yeah, so it can be, maybe it can be said that. Maybe it's the minority of legislators that are, you know, kind of under going under this kind of behavior. But I think it's there's a trend. Starting to happen where more and more and more it's it's happening.

• 1:15:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you also get you also get the mob mentality, just a straight up mob mentality. Where it's blood in the water and the sharks are gonna go crazy. And. Who was it? It was um Dave Chappelle. I was I saw a little clip of Dave Chappelle's. New Netflix special and he's making this joke. He says, he says, uh, guess who I am? And if you do something wrong. Ever in your life and I find out about it, I don't care if it's in five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, if I find out about it, I'm gonna ruin everything you have. And he says, guess who I am? And people are yelling out different names and he goes, I'm you.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  That's what everyone does. That's what everyone does nowadays. So we get this mob mentality. Of, oh, you made a mistake or you said something that was out of line or. Whatever the case may be, cool, we're gonna crucify you now. That's what that's what's gonna happen.

• 1:16:50Rob Jones?

  And unfortunately. In Congress, anyway, they're all kind of peers. They're all kind of equals. So there's no one leader that can kind of come in. Like the meal I massacre and put it put a stop to things.

• 1:17:02Rob Jones?

  So, yeah, there's there's nobody that that can really step forward and do that. It has that kind of influence.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Unless you just take the moral high ground and people start to see that that's the correct example.

• 1:17:12Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so you're gonna have to start leading.

• 1:17:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Rob Jones?

  Laterally.

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  And I think like Dan Crenshaw is doing a great job of that. He he just responds, he's not emotional. He just kind of, you know, states his opinion, recognizes that there's other views, tries to explain around it. Doesn't get personal with people. He's just doing a great job from that perspective.

• 1:17:31Rob Jones?

  Yeah, doesn't get fired up, normal face.

• 1:17:33Jocko Willink?

  Does just keeps normal face all the time. He's not getting crazy. And and. You know, it's it's it's hard. I remember explaining this when we got home from Ramadi, you know, there was.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  Inside the SEAL community, there were some people that were looking at the operations we did and what we did that thought, "Oh, why were you guys going out in the daytime? Why were you guys supporting conventional operations?" They were asking these questions. And basically, it's my fault that they were asking those questions because it means that I didn't do a good job of letting the community know why exactly we were in that position, what the strategic impact of those missions were and all those things. But I remember talking to Leif and Seth because, I mean, coming home from Ramadi, you know, we suffered some significant casualties and to hear someone say, you know, "What were you guys even doing?" It's real easy to get emotional. And I sat those guys down. I'm

• 1:18:25Jocko Willink?

  like, "Listen, when you discuss this with people, if you get emotional, your argument goes out the window because now you're just... They're looking at you going, "Oh, he's super emotional. That's the only reason he's... It doesn't make any sense. We can't listen to what he's saying because he's emotional."

• 1:18:42Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  And so I said, "When we do talk about this with people, we have to just get unemotional, just detach and just explain, 'Hey, this is what we were doing. Here's what was going on. This is what the conventional forces were doing. This is what the strategy was. Here's how we were able to help.'" You just have to do it like that because if you go, "What are you talking about?" And another thing that's really easy to do is, "You weren't even there!" Like, get really fired up. And we can't do that. So I think Dan is doing a good job of that and hopefully that example will continue to spread. And I know you'll be doing that as well. All right, moving down. "The path leads to an endpoint of limited to no effective communication. A lack of communication produces an environment in which no meaningful work can get accomplished.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  A workless environment in Congress means that America will stagnate. The process and systems on which our country runs will not be able to improve. The result is that Americans will suffer."

• 1:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, people can't even talk, people can't even talk to each other.

• 1:19:45Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Jocko Willink?

  In Congress.

• 1:19:47Rob Jones?

  Yeah, if you can't communicate.

• 1:19:48Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy.

• 1:19:49Rob Jones?

  Like you can't, the, the, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the time is going to be, you know, close to 50% Democrat, 50% Republican. And you rely on these other people to pass legislation and to do the job of Congress, which is to pass bills that can improve America, improve the lives of Americans. So if people can't communicate, so I could have, I could go into a committee or whatever, with a cure for cancer, like this bill will cure cancer guaranteed, even if it is, you know, what I said before where you don't know, I know for sure. This will cure cancer, but I go into committee that day, the week before, you know,

• 1:20:35Rob Jones?

  Representative Charles, I went on Twitter and I said, "What an idiot, this guy's stupid." You know, I just did a tweet like that.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  He's not voting for the cancer cure.

• 1:20:45Rob Jones?

  Not voting for it, all his friends aren't voting for it because they're on his team. So that cancer bill, it's even though it's going to cure cancer, it's going to be the best thing ever, doesn't see the light of day. So it's like, you might as well not even have it.

• 1:21:01Jocko Willink?

  Continue on, Buck, there is hope. Despite them getting next to no coverage in the media, there are true leaders in Congress. We can learn from their example. A true leader recognizes that every person comes from a unique set of experiences, including their upbringing, education, struggles and environment that forms their worldview, including values, priorities and perspectives. The leader also recognizes that even if an individuals, an individual person's worldview is wholly opposite than that of the leaders, it is nevertheless equally valid and worthy of consideration. The leader knows that the worldview and the person must be shown respect. The leader gives the other person the benefit of believing that they have good intention

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  and thoughtful now, and thoughtfully analyzes their ideas before coming to a conclusion as to their viability.

• 1:21:51Jocko Willink?

  I gave an answer, I think it was at the last muster. Somebody asked this big crazy question about leadership. What are you doing this? And, and I said, oh, you know what you do with that? And, and one of the most underutilized tools in all of leadership is to listen. Actually, listen to what other people are saying. Actually, listen to the people below you in the chain of command, listen to people above you in the chain of command. Listen to your, if you're in a family, listen, listen to what your wife, listen to what, actually, listen to what people have to say. And that's what you're saying right here. Instead of as soon as your mouth opens up, I already am judging what I think you're gonna say and shutting it down. Instead, I actually listen.

• 1:22:34Jocko Willink?

  I always, when I'm listening to people, I always think, why, I don't, I don't, my, my first instinct, when you start saying something, isn't why are you wrong? My instinct is, hey, what does this person know that I might not know? What, what is, what, what about this person's perspective is correct that, that doesn't make sense to me or that I don't understand?

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, a true leader of Congress recognizes that America relies on the teamwork of people with opposing viewpoints. The idea of a republic is not to have 51% of the people cram an idea around the throats of 49% of the people. Nor is it the opposite. It is to find solutions that as many people as possible can be happy with when they go to bed at night. The leader knows that the only way to achieve this is through working together. And I think that's, you, you'd think that that was a common sense statement. Hey, somewhere there's a happy medium that will work for a majority of the people.

• 1:23:30Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's not way over here, and it's not way over here. There's a little dichotomy between those two that you have to balance as a leader.

• 1:23:38Rob Jones?

  Yeah, anymore, it's like, everybody on either side is like, don't move an inch, don't give up an inch. It's like, this country was founded on something called the Great Compromise.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Rob Jones?

  Back in, you know, when they were writing the Constitution.

• 1:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that idea of that every single thing is a slippery slope is something that's very hard to contend with.

• 1:23:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? And I think the reason it's so hard to contend with is that folks on the extremes are so ravenous. That when they do get an inch, they go, cool, we got an inch. We need to take a foot and we got a foot. Now we'll take a yard. And so both sides have that attitude.

• 1:24:16Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Jocko Willink?

  Instead of someone coming to the table, putting their ego in check and saying, okay, you know what? We, we trust that you'll do this. And, you know, I, I think one of the things that makes America stable is that it's a tough, it's a big bureaucratic system that's hard to move, right? It's a big bureaucratic system that's hard to move. No one person has a massive effect.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  They just don't. I mean, like you can steer some stuff, you can make some things happen, you can make some, put some laws into place, but those laws might get repealed. I mean, it's a hard

• 1:24:51Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Jocko Willink?

  place to move around.

• 1:24:56Jocko Willink?

  And if people understood how hard it is to move around, then maybe they can start looking at other viewpoints a little bit more, like let's find, let's actually move forward.

• 1:25:04Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  In some direction.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  That teamwork relies in turn on communication between these people. The leader knows, the leader knows how to effectively communicate with both people that agree with them and those that don't. They communicate directly with the person. They explain their side and genuinely attempt to understand the other person's with humility, with respect, without insults. They don't sling mud in the public space effectively forever alienating that person on whom they rely for teamwork.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  A true leader acts selflessly in the performance of their duties. They make the decisions and implement the, the actions that they truthfully think are the best, in the best interest of the people that they represent and of America. They do so even if the result is damaging to their career. They don't care about notoriety and are happy to, happy in the simple knowledge that the people that do know them, believe in them wholeheartedly and they are making a difference. The good news is that we have leaders like this throughout our country. Some are in Congress, but if America is going to continue to be the greatest country on earth, Congress needs more.

• 1:26:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pretty straightforward.

• 1:26:22Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, we need people to step up. Uh, and that's, you know, we talked about it before. That's why I decided to do it.

• 1:26:30Rob Jones?

  You, somebody has to be the one to, uh, enter into the arena. And it's better to have somebody that has this kind of attitude, I think. Um, than allow somebody else to do it.

• 1:26:43Jocko Willink?

  And I think something, those people with this attitude

• 1:26:48Jocko Willink?

  are going to be able to, need to prevail. And we need to move away from the extremist viewpoints that come out, uh, e- even in Congress. Because it, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a tough question. Well, the one, the, when you say that you look at the other people as if their intentions are good, right?

• 1:27:11Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:12Jocko Willink?

  That you look at someone else and go, hey, look, what they want is what's best for America. And that's a very pure way to look at it. I will tell you that I've talked to some smart people that look at some people in politics and say, they have, and I've, I've discussed this on a podcast. I'm trying to think of with who. But there's people that think, no, they don't actually want the best for America. Or their vision of America is, is different and outside what, what the constitution says.

• 1:27:49Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  So there, so that's another thing to think about. And I think that this, this attitude of people going into Congress that will actually listen. Well, this is what I think will happen. The people that will go into Congress that actually listen, that actually can have meaningful conversations. I think that, or my hope is that that attitude will begin to rise to the surface. That people realize that, that what you want, you know, it's, uh, the very first podcast I, interview I ever did was with Tim Ferriss and he asked something about leadership. Then I talked about humility and then I talked about being balanced.

• 1:28:30Jocko Willink?

  And I think what people, hopefully in America, will start to realize is that what we want is not, are not people on the extremes, but people that are balanced and can communicate and listen, which is.

• 1:28:44Jocko Willink?

  What you are bringing to the table.

• 1:28:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah, and the reason that a lot of the times people get elected that have these kind of extreme views is because it gets coverage, it gets their name out there, people find out who they are, and what they're saying kind of scares the person and the person's kind of reacting, you know, from that fear. And so I think, you know, that I have a little bit of an advantage here where I can be kind of with this attitude and I can still get coverage because, you know, I am a wounded veteran and I've, I've done so much service and I've done all these things that I've done. So people are more likely to want to, you know, tell my story because, you know, it's a relatively compelling story.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  It's a very compelling story. I was talking to Travis Mills the other day and unfortunately we didn't have time to do a podcast, but um, we were talking about stuff and I was like, well, you know, you have a great story and it's the same thing I feel like I'm saying to you like, man, you, you've got a good story, right? You've got a great story. And you think, well, and I said halfway through this conversation with Travis, I'm like, hey, bro, I just want to let you know, like, I get that it's not exactly your great story that, you know, you got blown up and lost both your legs and both your arms and even same thing with you, like, hey, and you're saying it too. You're like, hey, I've got a good story. And it's like, okay, I just want to let everyone know, I get that losing both your legs in Afghanistan is not exactly a good story. However, what you've done with

• 1:30:09Jocko Willink?

  it has, you've taken what would be in many cases, a horrible story.

• 1:30:13Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  And you actually truly have turned it into a good story, which is exactly what, which is exactly what Travis does.

• 1:30:18Rob Jones?

  Well, it's a good story overall with a really bad inciting incident.

• 1:30:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:25Rob Jones?

  And so that's what it is. You know, the, the whole story isn't that one day. It's what happens afterwards. And so that's the story. But there, yeah, that doesn't mean there's bad, there's not bad things in that story. But overall, you know, it's, I, I don't know how Travis feels. Maybe I'll ask him if I ever meet him, but.

• 1:30:43Rob Jones?

  If you asked me, uh, if I went back in time and you asked me a week after I got hurt, or a couple of hours after I got hurt, or whatever, whenever I woke up, you know, would you go back in time and not step on that IED? I'd say, oh, definitely. I'd go, I'd just say, let's not even go through this area. Let's go around. But, you know, I'm in my house now and, you know, here's a big announcement. We got a baby on the way, me and Pam. Yeah, thank you. Uh, so we have a baby coming.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  There's the real announcement.

• 1:31:14Rob Jones?

  Yeah, there's the real announcement. I, I should have said that earlier. Um, I got a little boy due in February and, uh, we got this nice house. I have a great life, you know. Um, I think about that. And if somebody asked me right now, if you asked me if I would go back in time and not step on the IED, be like, hell no. I would step on that IED a thousand times to be where I am today. And I think that's important to remember about, you know, so it is a good story. If you can have that attitude at the end of it, that's a good story.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  There's no doubt about that, man. Dang. Um, you know, as we were talking about leadership and, and I was reading through some of the stuff you've written, I could not help myself but to refer back to the United States Marine Corps leadership traits.

• 1:32:01Rob Jones?

  Of course.

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and these traits are originally, I think, I think the first place that I saw them is in the Marine Corps Warfighting Publications, Six Tac Eleven, which is called Leading Marines. And it's in a bunch of other, they, they, they quote this all the time.

• 1:32:19Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:19Jocko Willink?

  They quote this all the time. The, the particular comments that I have around it here came from the Commander's Leadership Handbook, which was, came out, it's a Marine Corps publication. It's not an, it's not an official, uh, publication, but it's something that they put out in 2016. And they made some comments around, around the US Marine Corps leadership traits. JJ did tie buckle, right? What's that called when you do that? Is it called a?

• 1:32:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, it's an acronym, I guess. But it's also an easy way to remember things. So they got these, they got these, uh, certain words. That's what it spells out. It spells out JJ did tie buckle.

• 1:33:01Rob Jones?

  I bet it's a buckle that has all the brass rubbed off of it, too.

• 1:33:06Jocko Willink?

  First one is justice. Practice being fair and consistent, base rewards and punishment on merit. Straightforward, fair and consistent. Judgment, and this is, this is again, as I was thinking about these, thinking about you, thinking about where you're going, thinking about what your attitude is. Here's what they say about judgment. Consider all sides of an issue before making a decision. Gee, what a, what a shocking idea.

• 1:33:31Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Jocko Willink?

  That we would actually consider all sides of an issue before making a decision. And as a leader, clearly, that's something, i- it's, it's interesting, right? You think to yourself, judgment means I make good decisions. That's what judgment means. I have good judgment. But what they're saying is judgment is you actually just consider the different angles before you make a decision.

• 1:33:54Rob Jones?

  They're talking about how you come to that decision.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. And how do you come to that decision? By listening.

• 1:33:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:59Jocko Willink?

  That's how you come to that decision. Dependability. Here's a good one. Be on time, never make your Marines wait on you. What a stroke of leadership genius that is.

• 1:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Never let your, never make your Marines wait on you. And, and that is something that you see with leaders as they get advanced, as they get promoted. And all of a sudden, they don't think they need to be on time anymore. They think that everyone is there waiting for them. And that is just a horrible example to set.

• 1:34:35Jocko Willink?

  Be dependable, meet deadlines, ensure paperwork is processed efficiently and effectively in order to best care for your Marines. We're here to take care of our Marines. And again, you take this and you apply this to your attitude going into Congress. What are you there for? To take care of your constituents.

• 1:34:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah, and they're depending on me to do that, so I have to be dependable to them. If they had to double check my work all the time, you know, that's kind of the, the whole purpose of a representative. You know, governmental system is that we're trusting, we're depending upon this one person to represent our, you know, our issues and what we need. And so if they had to be double checking me all the time, then they might as well just.

• 1:35:18Rob Jones?

  They're not gonna have any time because it's a full-time job to figure out all the different stuff about all these issues and figure out what to do and go in and vote and all that thing. So they wouldn't be able to work. They just, everybody would just be a representative and nobody would ever get anything done besides running the government.

• 1:35:32Jocko Willink?

  Which would not work.

• 1:35:33Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so they have to depend, they have to depend on that person.

• 1:35:38Jocko Willink?

  Next up, integrity. The most important ingredient of leadership. Tell the truth to both your superiors and your Marines. There you go. We talked about truth already. Always use your authority for mission accomplishment, not for personal gain.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  That would be a big one to run across the entire United States government. How much, how many people do things for their personal gain and not for?

• 1:36:05Rob Jones?

  Yeah, you wonder.

• 1:36:06Jocko Willink?

  The good of the country.

• 1:36:07Rob Jones?

  You wonder how, how many people are just concerned about having a political career. And I'll say right now, I'm willing to sacrifice any kind of political career and do the right thing. You know, I'll, I'll find something else if that's what it takes. I'll run 50 marathons.

• 1:36:26Jocko Willink?

  Next one, decisiveness. Study your alternatives and, and take the best possible course of action. Know when not to, know when not to step in and make a decision. Hmm, that's an interesting one from a leadership perspective. I got a new book coming out in January 2020 and I talk a lot about, not a lot, but there's a couple of sections in there where I talk about how to know when to step up and lead. And I got, and I went into some pretty good detail. And it's really cool for me to write this stuff because I get to sit there from a detached perspective and think of all these situations that I've, I've been in and how I would handle them. But one of them is when, when there's a little bit of a leadership vacuum, when do you step in? And I went into this pretty big explanation

• 1:37:11Jocko Willink?

  of, okay, well, obviously there's a, a leadership vacuum and there's like an emergency situation and you see that vacuum, you step in there immediately. But, and this is as I would think about how I would actually do this. If there's a leadership vacuum, but there's no critical emergency, my first instinct isn't just to step right in immediately because I'm gonna let that thing develop a little bit. I'm gonna see if somebody else, I'm actually hoping one of my subordinate steps into that leadership vacuum. And then I get to stay detached and I get to watch what the decisions they're making and see what direction, it's all good. And then I talked about what happens if two people step into that leadership vacuum at the same time? What do you do? What if I step into the leadership vacuum and so does Echo Charles at the same time we step into that leadership vacuum?

• 1:37:55Jocko Willink?

  What do I do? Can you guess what I do Echo Charles?

• 1:37:58Speaker 02

  Let me lead.

• 1:37:58Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I immediately go, you know, if you and I both say, I say, go left, you say, go right. Right at that moment, I say, go left, you say, go right. I go, hey, all right, Echo, we're going with your plan. I'm immediately going to do that. I mean, considering that there's no major catastrophic incident. If, if, if somebody steps up and take leader, I'm happy to follow, especially if it's my subordinate. Cause now as soon as Echo is now going to take that problem and he's going to run with it, I can look around and see what else, uh, see what else is going on. Look at the bigger picture. So yeah, it's interesting when you look at these leadership vacuums and how you actually handle them. The other thing I talked about is this, this is getting detailed. But if we're in a situation, let's say we're in a platoon and, and there's a leadership vacuum.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  And I immediately try and jump into the leadership vacuum as soon as I see it. Guess what? Not everyone else saw that vacuum. Not everyone else felt it. And there's people, there's going to be some resistance to you changing course right now. If I let that situation develop for eight more seconds, six more seconds, 20 more seconds, whatever, whatever it is. Where all of a sudden people go, wait a second, there's a leadership vacuum. Meanwhile, I'm sitting detached and I'm going, as soon as I, as soon as the moment's right, I'm making a call. And now everyone is waiting for the call. They're waiting to be led. And by the way, the decision that I'm about to make, I've already assessed that it's a good call. So there's all these little things to think about when it comes to being decisive.

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  And another thing I say is be as, make your decisions as, as, as late as possible, which is a little bit weird, right? It sounds counterintuitive. No, you just make a call immediately. No, actually, I'll make a, this is what I say. I will make the smallest decision I need to make heading in the right direction of what I think the broader decision that needs to be made is. So I won't just immediately say, flank left. No, the first thing I'm going to say is, okay, get online. Put some machine gunners over to left. We think we're moving that way, but we're not going there yet. So this idea of being decisive has got a lot of little nuance to it that you need to think about. Next one, tact. Talk with your Marines, not at them. That's a good idea with your constituents, right?

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  Treat others as you would like to be treated. Be steadfast during crisis. Stay calm and steer your command in stormy weather. When reacting to bad news, know that initial reports are nearly always wrong and then they throw this out. Listen first.

• 1:40:21Rob Jones?

  And I had, I think I read a different one because I have some quotes down here, but I had-

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  There's all kinds of, the Marines have done all kinds of different, and not just, not just official Marines, but just people, human beings.

• 1:40:33Rob Jones?

  Well, the one that I read had a picture of Chesty Puller on it, so I think that's probably the most official.

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  Solid.

• 1:40:39Rob Jones?

  But the one of the quotes for tact that I liked from, from the one that I read is,

• 1:40:45Rob Jones?

  "This deference must be extended under all conditions regardless of true feelings."

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:40:52Rob Jones?

  So I could hate, I could sit across the table and hate, physically hate another legislator. Hate everything they stand for, hate their soul. But I'm gonna sit there, I'm gonna listen to them and say, "Okay, that's a good, that's a good point."

• 1:41:06Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:41:06Rob Jones?

  I'm not gonna go on Twitter.

• 1:41:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And you actually are listening to them.

• 1:41:09Rob Jones?

  Yeah, and I will, yeah.

• 1:41:10Jocko Willink?

  And it's not even just playing the game like, "Okay, I just gotta do this." No, it's like, "I'm actually listening to what you're saying. I actually want to prove myself wrong." Ultimately, I want to be wrong. I want, I want you to be right. Because how much, how much easier is my life if you and I want to get a project done, you have a way of doing it and I have a way of doing it? How much easier and better is it for me if your way is, works better than mine?

• 1:41:30Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  It makes my whole life easier. I go, "Okay, cool. I get, you got my support 100%." You, I know you're voting for you. And as long as it's a good plan, guess what? I get to vote for you too, and I'm happy.

• 1:41:39Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to me having to argue and try and pry your vote from you to me, to do the project the way I said. That's already, I already wasted hours, if not days. If, if you come up with a decent enough plan, bro, I'm on board.

• 1:41:54Rob Jones?

  Yeah. And then even at the end, you can honestly consider what they said, and then your assessment is, "This person's, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard." You don't say, "It's the dumbest idea I've ever heard, it's never gonna work." You say, "Okay." All right. Well, I don't know. Maybe that might not be

• 1:42:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Rob Jones?

  how I would go with it. Well, what can you consider this?

• 1:42:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16Rob Jones?

  You don't, you don't just like, you act tactfully.

• 1:42:18Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:42:19Rob Jones?

  Just like it's tact.

• 1:42:20Jocko Willink?

  Initiative. Take action, even in the absence of orders from a superior. Be a self-starter. Plan ahead and have three hit pocket plans for contingencies. Always look to improve. Learn from your mistakes. Initiative.

• 1:42:37Jocko Willink?

  Endurance. I actually was laughing when I read, read about endurance.

• 1:42:41Rob Jones?

  My specialty.

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  Right, yeah. I think we'll be okay with endurance. Maintain mental and physical stamina. Know when to recharge. Most people who quit do not give up at the bottom of the mountain. They, they stop halfway up it. So endurance, as I said, I don't think we need to even.

• 1:42:59Jocko Willink?

  I think you, I think you will be the premier endurance person in Congress.

• 1:43:05Rob Jones?

  Period. I'll become quite good at it over the years.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  Bearing, set the example by maintaining high standards in appearance and personal conduct. Avoid the use of profanity. How you like that, Echo Charles?

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm fine with it. At the end of the day, yeah, I'm fine.

• 1:43:24Jocko Willink?

  Be professional. Develop gentlemen and ladies and future citizens. Have you heard there's been some, uh, some pretty high profile politicians that have dropped some language? It gets like immediate press.

• 1:43:36Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  Especially if you drop the F-bomb.

• 1:43:37Rob Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:38Jocko Willink?

  If you drop the F-bomb on national television, you're gonna get some coverage. It may not be good, may not be bad. I don't know. You tell me.

• 1:43:45Rob Jones?

  Yeah. I, I think one of this, um, General Mattis recently is a great, I mean, obviously he's a great example for all of these.

• 1:43:53Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:43:54Rob Jones?

  Especially lately for this, because he came out with his book and he's constantly being, you know, picked at by people that are doing interviews, like, say something about Trump. Say something about Trump. And he's come out so many times saying, I'm not going to comment about a sitting president. And they just keep asking, can they ask in a different way? They ask in a different way. And he's just, he maintains his bearing.

• 1:44:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he, he, he does indeed. Unselfishness. Care for your Marines above yourself. Boom. Once again, that goes back to your constituents.

• 1:44:25Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  Taking care of your constituents, not, and you just said, you know, it's not about your political career. Take every action to provide for the welfare of your Marines. They always come first.

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  Courage. Take measure, risk and combat in peace. Act calmly and firmly in stressful situations. Stand up for what is right regardless of what others think.

• 1:44:49Jocko Willink?

  Accept personal responsibility for your orders and for your mistakes. I think they should actually call that something else like extreme ownership.

• 1:44:58Rob Jones?

  I wonder even in the face of popular disfavor for what you're doing. So you have to do it even when, if you know that it's, if you believe that it's the right thing to do, no matter how many people are telling you it's the wrong thing. You have to, you have to have the courage to stand out from the group and put yourself out there.

• 1:45:17Jocko Willink?

  And what makes that work, what makes that not an extreme is the fact that has to be balanced with the humility to listen to other people. Right? Because if I'm just saying, well, you know, I, this is what I believe and I'm sticking with it, but I'm not listening to anyone else. That's a problem. If I'm listening to people, but I'm coming up with my judgment and my judgment is the same and I'm listening to more people. And people are telling me, no, that's you shouldn't do it that way. It's gonna lose your next election. But you believe it's the right thing to do? You do it. That's courage.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  Correct Marines when required. That's, that's a good one. Cause you would think, you would think that that's so easy in the military, you know, oh, you, somebody steps out of line, you just straighten them out. I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting because in SEAL teams, I know that's hard. It's interesting that the Marine Corps finds that hard as well. Because the Marine Corps more rank sensitive, right? The SEAL teams is not rank sensitive. It's basically a open, you know, it's almost completely, not, not completely open, but it's definitely more open than Marine Corps. Trust me. But you would think that in the Marine Corps, hey, Lance Corporal is doing something stupid. You're just gonna straighten them out immediately.

• 1:46:33Jocko Willink?

  And that's true to some extent, but when you get to, hey, you, you know, you got somebody, maybe that's your peer. That's doing something wrong. Are you gonna say something? And it becomes a lot more challenging.

• 1:46:47Jocko Willink?

  Allow subordinates to make decisions. Yeah, that takes courage as well. Knowledge works, work towards technical, tactical, administrative excellence. Read, study, think, write and teach.

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  Think about that. Read, study, think, write, and teach. Those things are so underrated. Read, study, think, write, and teach. And actually, I think think

• 1:47:15Jocko Willink?

  should go fourth.

• 1:47:18Jocko Willink?

  No, it should go last. Because all those other things allow you to think. Those are the things that make you think. If you want, if you read something, you have to think about it. If you study something, you think about it. When you write out your thoughts, or even talk about your thoughts,

• 1:47:35Jocko Willink?

  that's gonna, that's gonna make you think. It's gonna make you hone those thoughts. And teaching them absolutely will do that. You learn that in jujitsu. The more you teach those moves, the better you get at them. Loyalty. Display faithfulness to your country, the corps, to your unit, to your seniors, to your subordinates, and to your peers.

• 1:47:55Jocko Willink?

  Defend your Marines against unfair treatment.

• 1:47:59Jocko Willink?

  Display enthusiasm in carrying out an order, even if you may privately disagree. Now, here's where I gotta, you know, we gotta talk about that one a little bit. Because if I privately disagree, and it's relatively minor, cool, we're gonna carry it out. The more, all's I'm saying is that you reach to a point, you, you can reach a point where if you're telling me to do something that makes no sense whatsoever, and it's gonna get people killed, or it's immoral, illegal, or unethical, I'm not gonna carry it out.

• 1:48:29Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  And there's a whole... There's a whole, there's a whole just gray area around that one. Because if, sometimes if you don't carry it out, you're gonna get fired. And now you don't have any influence anymore, which is not, which is possibly not a good outcome.

• 1:48:51Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:52Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  Enthusiasm.

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  I don't think, I don't think, this is another one. I think you just win that category.

• 1:49:02Rob Jones?

  Well, I wrote this one down as, I wrote, my one note underneath it was belief. Based on what I read. It's just you have to believe that what you're doing is possible. Even if you think it maybe there's not a great likelihood, like I believed that when I was going through a danger area looking for IEDs that I would get to the other side. Uh, you know, uninjured and I had to have that belief in order to be able to do it. I had to believe that there was at least a small chance that I could run 31 back to back marathons. If I didn't believe it at all, I would ran one and then just been like, I quit. So, and then, you know, in Congress, you have to believe that you can make a difference. You have to believe that you can, you know, convince this other person or learn something from that other person.

• 1:49:48Rob Jones?

  Uh, that will convince you, you have to actually believe that. And so that's kind of how I interpreted the enthusiasm one.

• 1:49:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And like I said, I think you're, I think, I think endurance and enthusiasm. I think anyone have a hard time sort of stepping up to the plate with you in those respects. And then that, that wraps up, you know, these leadership traits from the Marine Corps. And, you know, it's probably a pretty good place to wrap up. What we're, you know, this, this podcast today, except for one more thing in this, that's, we talked a lot about what you're doing right now.

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  People are going to want to support you.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  Because they listen to the podcast, they're patriots. They want to have reasonable human beings. Running the government, not crazy people. So, what's the best way to, for everyone to support what you're doing, to get you the, the, the funds that you need, the support that you need? How do we do that?

• 1:50:50Rob Jones?

  Yeah. Well, you know.

• 1:50:54Rob Jones?

  There's a lot of different ways. You kind of were in a difficult period, you know, in our country. And we have what we were talking about with the poison is slowly making its way into the government and feeding out into the society and it's kind of breaking apart, you know, the glue that holds us together. And so we do need to make sure that, you know, a lot of people are gonna, I know that a lot of, a lot of the people that listen to this podcast, I'm not going to directly represent them in Virginia 10, which is, you know, Northern Virginia.

• 1:51:26Rob Jones?

  But we have, you know, everybody knows that the decisions that are made in the federal government, they affect everybody in some way. So I do think that we all have a responsibility to make sure that the correct people get elected in every office and in every location.

• 1:51:46Rob Jones?

  And I truly believe that I can be, I have the JJ did tie buckle attributes to be a person that can go to Congress and have a positive effect on. I'm not going to do it all by myself. I'm not going to go in there and be the one person that saves the world or anything. But I do think that I can start taking it back in that, that other direction, you know, get with Dan Crenshaw, get with Brian Mast and form these, you know, these coalitions that we can start having a positive effect on, on the way things are going in Congress. So there's a couple of different ways that people can help. They can, you know, there's volunteering. If you do live in my district, you can, you can volunteer and you can, we will need people

• 1:52:28Rob Jones?

  to go out and knock on doors and pass out stuff and make phone calls and that kind of thing eventually. You can just tell people, spread the word about, you know, who I am and that I'm running. But I think the, the way that people can have the greatest impact is what we were talking about before and it is the fundraising.

• 1:52:49Rob Jones?

  You know, if I could, I hate asking for money. And if I could fund this whole thing myself, if I had millions of dollars, then I would. But, you know, I'm, I'm from humble means. I don't, I simply don't have, you know, I don't have the money.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  And you're, you're.

• 1:53:02Rob Jones?

  To do this all myself.

• 1:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Your wife's running the farm right now, right?

• 1:53:04Rob Jones?

  Yeah, Pam's running the farm. And so, you know, we're.

• 1:53:07Jocko Willink?

  Are you guys selling, are you guys selling food? Are you guys producing and selling food?

• 1:53:10Rob Jones?

  Yeah, she goes down to the farmer's market, uh, every Saturday and she sells vegetables and she'll be selling eggs soon. Um, so yeah, you know, we're.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  How many chickens you got?

• 1:53:18Rob Jones?

  We got, uh, forty.

• 1:53:19Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:53:20Rob Jones?

  Yeah, man. We just started getting, they just started laying eggs. So we're, we're starting to get like seven, eight eggs. Now, I only eat five every day, so I can't keep up with them. But they're, uh, we're gonna start selling eggs and then, so yeah, the farm has really taken off for Pam. And she's, you know, obviously she's incredibly supportive of what I'm doing and I wouldn't be doing it without her support. Uh, yeah, so we're, we're, you know, we're a humble family. And, you know, I simply don't have the money. And we are talking. My, you know, the, the current representative, she's raised over a million dollars already just this year. Cause she has those apparatuses in place and she's the incumbent, so she gets a lot of support.

• 1:53:59Rob Jones?

  Um, so we are talking about that kind of dollar sign where it costs millions of dollars to buy the advertising on the TV, on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, and all these different places. Buy the road signs, buy the flyers, you know, buy cards, all these things. It takes millions and millions of dollars. So, you know, if everybody that listens to this podcast, if you, I know a lot of people write in questions saying, when is Jaco, when are Jaco and Leif gonna start running for office? You know, everybody asks that. And hey, listen, the hard fact is Jaco's not running for office. He's leading in a different way. In a just as important way, you know, leading in, in society.

• 1:54:43Rob Jones?

  And in business too. And so he's not running for office and Leif isn't running for office either. But so this is your opportunity here. You've heard what I think. I've been on the podcast three times. I've read the books. I am on board with the extreme ownership mentality and the attitude. So this is an opportunity for people that want to see somebody that has bought into this in Congress. This is your opportunity to help make that happen. And so if you want to donate, you go to robjonesforcongress.com/donate. And even if it's a dollar, $10, whatever, I know you, do you still get around a million downloads per podcast, something like that?

• 1:55:23Jocko Willink?

  Something like that.

• 1:55:24Rob Jones?

  Yeah. So let's say a million people donate a dollar. That's a million bucks. That is huge. That puts me way, way, way far ahead.

• 1:55:32Jocko Willink?

  In the game.

• 1:55:32Rob Jones?

  In the game. Yeah. And so that's the best way. And, you know, do it now. As you're listening to this, just get on your phone and do it right now. It's, it's, it's pretty quick. Don't make me like be like my, my friend Frank and have to, have to chase him up three times. Frank, you know, don't be Frank and do it now. And if you really can't do it now, set, you know, send yourself a notification so that you remember or call your wife, send her a voicemail and say, hey, remind me to donate when I get home. So, you know, take ownership of that as well. And so this is your opportunity. So that's the, that's the best way. And that's going to, the way that people can help the most.

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  Something I noticed yesterday that you have, so you had your Facebook, your Twitter, your Instagram and your YouTube and your old one used to be called Rob, Rob Jones Journey.

• 1:56:29Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:29Jocko Willink?

  Right? And now that, is that gone?

• 1:56:31Rob Jones?

  No, that's still there.

• 1:56:32Jocko Willink?

  But now you have Rob Jones for Congress and on Facebook you have @robjonesva on Twitter and Rob Jones for Congress on the Gram.

• 1:56:42Rob Jones?

  The Gram.

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  As Echo Charles calls it.

• 1:56:43Rob Jones?

  So the reason that. I uh, I'm trying to keep Rob Jones' journey and the political stuff separate because I know the people that follow me on Rob Jones' journey don't necessarily want to see political stuff all the time. So I'm trying to keep those two things separate. So that's why I have the different handles for, you know, for this project. And yeah.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  Interesting. That's an interesting call. I don't agree with it.

• 1:57:06Rob Jones?

  Yeah, it definitely, you know, it'd be, it'd be a bonus to have the 8,000, you know, Instagram followers that I have all getting my, you know, political stuff, but I kind of do, I kind of want to make sure that I maintain that, that separation.

• 1:57:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that's another thing is just follow Rob Jones.

• 1:57:21Rob Jones?

  Yeah, follow me.

• 1:57:22Jocko Willink?

  On all these things. Smash the follow button.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Awesome, man. Well, that's, that's like, that's what we gotta do. We gotta give you some support and get you the funds that you need to make this happen.

• 1:57:42Rob Jones?

  Yes. And yeah, like I said, I hate asking for money, but it's the unfortunate part.

• 1:57:50Jocko Willink?

  It's the way the system works right now.

• 1:57:52Rob Jones?

  It's the way you play the game. It's the way you play the game.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  And we play to win. All right. Echo.

• 1:57:58Rob Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  Rob, we got Rob here. Obviously he's, you know, on the path.

• 1:58:03Rob Jones?

  Big time.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  On multiple ways. Is there anything that we need to do to kind of get on the path over here on our side?

• 1:58:11Rob Jones?

  Can I bring up a few more things? I had like, just a couple of funny things at the end. Now that we're doing support.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:19Rob Jones?

  We're in support mode? Yes. Okay. My first thing, this is directed directly at Echo Charles. Sure. You know how you guys were talking, you were doing the, the Marine Corps, you know, grading system for everybody? Yeah, yeah. And what was the?

• 1:58:35Jocko Willink?

  Podcast number 174.

• 1:58:36Rob Jones?

  Eminently qualified.

• 1:58:37Jocko Willink?

  Eminently qualified.

• 1:58:38Rob Jones?

  And below that, what was the one below that?

• 1:58:39Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't know. Doesn't matter to me. It's a loser.

• 1:58:42Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Rob Jones?

  Anyway, I, I'm sure a lot of people have this problem where I'll be listening to the podcast and you guys will be talking about something and I want to cut into the podcast.

• 1:58:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:53Rob Jones?

  Oh, oh, here's something funny that I could say. So I'm sure a lot of people have that problem. And the vast majority of the time, I'm listening to the podcast when I'm working out or driving in the car or something. So I can't write it down, but this one stuck in my mind.

• 1:59:08Rob Jones?

  And so it was when Echo Charles, he was talking about, and he said,

• 1:59:13Rob Jones?

  the expertly qualified Mario player is the man, the person that can go through the entire Super Mario game with one guy.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  Without warping, by the way.

• 1:59:26Rob Jones?

  Without warping. And I just wanted to bring up that the eminently qualified Super Mario Brothers player would be the people that can do the whole game, one guy, in less than four minutes, which is the world record.

• 1:59:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's a good thought, but when you go into these...

• 1:59:46Jocko Willink?

  Don't give Rob any money, forget it, he's out, he's triggered, he triggered Echo Charles.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna disagree. I'll agree, but with additional stuff, so I wouldn't say that that would be the standard, because you can go, okay, I can go for time, for sure. Or I could go for points and get all the coins. See what I'm saying? Then you could go, I can go for time and coins, or time and points. See what I'm saying? So, because if you just go for coins, you're not killing everybody if you're going for time and coins. You see what I'm saying?

• 2:00:19Rob Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:20Speaker 02

  But if you're going for time and points, you're going for coins, killing everybody as fast as you can. So I think that might be the...

• 2:00:26Rob Jones?

  Well, that's a very good point.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  You see what I'm saying?

• 2:00:28Rob Jones?

  And maybe we'll let the, uh, let the listeners decide.

• 2:00:31Speaker 02

  And the thing is, I know that because I've tried that for the time, and I remember it.

• 2:00:35Rob Jones?

  Oh, to break the record?

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  I'm doing, no, I didn't do, I did not break the record, but I do remember, hey, I didn't kill anybody. I skipped so many coins, which I usually get because I care about how many mana I have. See what I'm saying? Get a hundred coins, get an extra mana.

• 2:00:47Rob Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:00:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't really, I don't know how this ties in a hundred percent, but it does tie in some percent. So when we would be, when I first got in the teams, we would do like shooting competitions. And, you know, you'd have to run to this spot, shoot here, shoot these number of targets, run to a different spot, throw the, put on the rucksack, drag it, whatever. You'd do this stuff, and then you'd shoot more targets. And if you missed the target, it was like a certain deduction, right? And there would be somebody that would just go, you know what? They would figure it out in their head that the shooting didn't really, if the person didn't set up the course correctly, I could just run through this thing, just dump rounds and win.

• 2:01:27Speaker 02

  That is a hundred percent translation, yeah.

• 2:01:30Jocko Willink?

  And then everyone would look at that guy. That did that?

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:01:34Jocko Willink?

  And just think loser.

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  To just not eat, to just, hey, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna win the technicality of this game.

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:43Jocko Willink?

  But without, without really truly encompassing the spirit or embracing the spirit of the game.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Jocko Willink?

  So that would almost be like, if you did that, you were gonna get shunned.

• 2:01:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:57Jocko Willink?

  From the group.

• 2:01:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can dig it. I mean, Super Mario Brothers doesn't have that spirit of like killing everything. You do it kinda cuz you have to, or you know, it helps you, whatever. So I get the time thing. In four minutes, I don't think you could do all thirty-two levels in four minutes.

• 2:02:11Rob Jones?

  No, they use warps and they use glitches in the game.

• 2:02:13Speaker 02

  Uh, okay, so that's even more defeating the spirit.

• 2:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:17Jocko Willink?

  So I guess we're all, we're kind of on the level then, right?

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, we are fully. And so I guess.

• 2:02:22Jocko Willink?

  And I kinda get though too, like, okay, you're just gonna run through the course, throw rounds downrange, and you don't care, but you're gonna win, right?

• 2:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:28Jocko Willink?

  Cuz you could, you could save the princess.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, save the princess.

• 2:02:31Jocko Willink?

  You could look at it and say, you know what? Hey, I won, whatever.

• 2:02:34Speaker 02

  Save the princess, yeah.

• 2:02:35Jocko Willink?

  But then we get back to what we were talking about earlier. Are you really gonna throw your morals out the window just to get the W?

• 2:02:43Rob Jones?

  Just to get the world record.

• 2:02:44Jocko Willink?

  My recommendation is no, don't do that.

• 2:02:46Speaker 02

  No, you have a moral obligation.

• 2:02:48Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you play the game correctly.

• 2:02:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  That's my recommendation.

• 2:02:51Rob Jones?

  Well, okay, so.

• 2:02:53Jocko Willink?

  All right, that's point number one.

• 2:02:54Rob Jones?

  Point that point number one. Okay, the next one is a story. And I found it to be interesting, but stop me if you've already heard it. And there's a story about an African-American boy. Um, when Washington was crossing the Delaware. So he was coming up to cross the Delaware on Christmas Day. And there were the, an African-American man and an African-American son. And he, the, the man wanted to join the army to help, uh, General Washington. And the boy wanted to fight as well, but he was too young. He was about eleven. And General Washington said, you're, uh, you're too young. But what you can do for us is you can stay back here on this side of the river. And you can mind the horses and you can hold this, you can make sure that this lantern stays alight

• 2:03:39Rob Jones?

  to, to be it so that we know where we can go. They'll guide us back after the, after we win the battle.

• 2:03:47Rob Jones?

  And that night, they, they went and they, they won the battle and it was a freezing cold night. And that little boy, they came back. He had frozen to death, but the lantern was still lit. And that little boy's name, Jaco.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  So that's

• 2:04:03Rob Jones?

  Have you heard that before?

• 2:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know, I don't know. I had not heard that before. You know, have you ever seen the little jockey?

• 2:04:09Rob Jones?

  Yeah, that's where it comes from.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  That's, yeah, I know that that guy is called Jaco.

• 2:04:13Rob Jones?

  That's the legend.

• 2:04:15Jocko Willink?

  And he is a little African American looking little jockey dude.

• 2:04:19Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly. Apparently, General Washington, and this is all, you know, legend or whatever. I don't know if it actually happened, but

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  I know, because this sounds like there could be some urban legend to this whole thing.

• 2:04:30Rob Jones?

  So apparently

• 2:04:31Jocko Willink?

  We don't know if this is true.

• 2:04:32Rob Jones?

  Apparently, General Washington, he had a memorial memorial statue built, and that's what the little jockey statue is. And then those statues were supposedly used in the Underground Railroad to tell people for their sake. But, okay, so that's that one.

• 2:04:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:04:47Rob Jones?

  And my last one, it's kind of serious, because I actually have beef. Jaco and I have beef.

• 2:04:56Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:04:56Rob Jones?

  I know. So here's what happened. We need to squash it. Here's what happened.

• 2:05:04Rob Jones?

  Moved into a nice little town called Middleburg. Actually, I was having a house built in Middleburg and

• 2:05:11Rob Jones?

  earlier this year was finally finished. And while this house is being built, I was living in Vienna, Virginia, and then Leesburg, Virginia, which are all kind of around Middleburg, Virginia. And after I went on the podcast second time, I was contacted by a guy that I know, and then you know, and I think Echo Charles knows him. His name is Dave Burke.

• 2:05:36Jocko Willink?

  Good deal, Dave.

• 2:05:38Rob Jones?

  I was contacted by this gentleman, and he said, let's meet up sometime. I said, okay, where do you live? He said, I live in Aldi, Aldi, Virginia. And I went on there, I was like, oh, that's like five miles from where I live, where I'm gonna be living in Middleburg. And then I'm like, oh, man, all right, I'm gonna have a friend.

• 2:05:57Jocko Willink?

  Got a neighbor.

• 2:05:58Rob Jones?

  Out in Middleburg.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  Built-in neighbor.

• 2:05:59Rob Jones?

  I have a built-in neighbor. And then we build the house. I'm about to move in, and I see a Facebook post by this Dave Burke says, the Burks are moving.

• 2:06:14Rob Jones?

  I go, you guys are moving, right? When I'm moving in? And Dave says, yeah, well, you know, Jaco had this big opportunity for me out here in San Diego. So the beef is that Jaco stole my friend.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  Dang, friend and neighbor stolen. Well, if it makes you feel any better, which it probably won't. When he did announce to us, or to me anyway, that he was coming to California, I was fired up too. Like how you weren't fired up, I was inversely fired up. Then he moves out here and moves up to Carlsbad. So it's like, you know, another one of those deals, man. So same boat.

• 2:06:47Rob Jones?

  Well, yeah, that's the thing. Last night I was here. Originally, me and Dave were gonna meet up at Phil's.

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And there was a possibility.

• 2:06:54Rob Jones?

  There was a possibility that you were gonna come.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because Phil's, as we know, is 200 meters from Victory MMA and Fitness. It is, it is possibly my favorite.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's definitely my favorite barbecue now that I mention it. I'm not even gonna play around. And we can get Leif going, well, no problem.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  Whataburger.

• 2:07:16Jocko Willink?

  No, no, Leif's got the Saltlick. He's got another, he's got a couple. Leif's got a couple. But you know, for him, being from Texas, anything, like to even consider the fact that a barbecue outside of Texas could be your number one, you, you, that is, that is blasphemy. For Leif, 100% blasphemy. So yes, Phil's Barbecue. And I'll tell you what, Tim Kennedy came up, and he lives in Texas, and I took him to Phil's, and I said, hey, bro, just stand by. And he had cut weight for like a photo shoot or something. And so he was all starving. And I took him over there. And yeah, there's no denying it. So when you, you said to me,

• 2:07:59Jocko Willink?

  hey, I'm gonna go out for dinner with Dave Burke, can you go? And I was like, it's, it depends, you know? I said, possible. And I actually knew that it was probably not possible. But then I thought, well, if they're going to Phil's. And I get done training and I can go over there and get, get it done in thirty-five to forty minutes. I, I was thinking, maybe I'll just go for it.

• 2:08:23Rob Jones?

  You make time for Phil's.

• 2:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, let's say, wouldn't he, the net loss, because it's gonna take me, it's gonna take me, you know, seventeen minutes to eat anyways, right?

• 2:08:33Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  So, would, the net loss is like probably what, around fifteen minutes total?

• 2:08:38Rob Jones?

  And we could have ordered for you, so that was ready.

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  I could have rolled right in there, it would have been good to go. Like, that would have been a game changer.

• 2:08:44Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Then, cause now we're talking like a twelve-minute scenario.

• 2:08:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah. So I get in and Dave Burke calls me and he says, oh, hey, you know, the, the wife and kids, Whitney and the kids, they really wanna see you too. I'm like, okay, yeah, that's fair, so.

• 2:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Bring them to Phil's, dude.

• 2:08:59Rob Jones?

  Yeah. And he said, uh, why don't you come over to our house? I go, okay, yeah, that, that, that'll work. He said he was moving to San Diego. He didn't say, so I was like, oh, it'll probably just be a couple minute, a few minutes away.

• 2:09:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:11Rob Jones?

  I was like, okay, maybe Jaco can still come to that, we'll still have a good time. And he's like, all right, cool. Uh, maybe you can jump in an Uber. And he said, come on, and I look in the address that he gives me and it's forty-five minutes away.

• 2:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:23Rob Jones?

  And I'm like, can you still come? And Jaco's like, nope.

• 2:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm like, where are you going for dinner? I'm praying that it's gonna say Phil's BBQ. But it says, or, uh, Dave was ni- nice enough to invite us over to his house. I'm like, cool, nope. Have a good dinner.

• 2:09:41Rob Jones?

  That being said.

• 2:09:41Jocko Willink?

  Did you Uber up there?

• 2:09:42Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I Ubered up there.

• 2:09:43Jocko Willink?

  And then Ubered home?

• 2:09:44Rob Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:09:45Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 2:09:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah. Um.

• 2:09:48Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna need a whole new slew of donations just to cover the Uber costs. You'll have to sell some eggs. Well, no, you can't, you can't.

• 2:09:55Rob Jones?

  Can't use that.

• 2:09:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, can't use those ones.

• 2:09:58Rob Jones?

  I gotta do another speaking engagement or something.

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Pam gonna have to sell some eggs.

• 2:10:01Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly. But, to be fair, the, the evening was very pleasant and obviously Dave's family is great and his wife made some great baked ziti that we thoroughly enjoyed. So it was a very fun evening. But he did kind of trick me.

• 2:10:16Jocko Willink?

  Here's the crazy thing. So Dave, Dave's all fired up, you know, and I'm fired up because Dave's like one of the best people ever and he's moving out to San Diego, you know, and it's, I'm super stoked. And then the Carlsbad word comes in. So we're a little bit, you know, we're not quite, you know. But here's the funny thing. You know how many times I've seen Dave since he moved out here like three times? I'm not even kidding because he's on the road all the time working. I'm on the road all the time working. So it's cool that we've seen each other three times, but uh, you know.

• 2:10:50Speaker 02

  It's not that cool.

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully it'll improve over time.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:53Jocko Willink?

  So those are pretty good beefs. Any other beefs with me?

• 2:10:56Rob Jones?

  Beef is squashed.

• 2:10:57Jocko Willink?

  You wanna hear something weird? Like when you tell me you have beef with me, I'm not kidding.

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  You thought he was serious?

• 2:11:02Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no, but like, I was like, okay, like, I mean, I got into a.

• 2:11:07Rob Jones?

  Yeah, he reached for the pocket knife.

• 2:11:09Jocko Willink?

  I was like.

• 2:11:10Rob Jones?

  He reached for the knife, he opened it up.

• 2:11:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:11:12Rob Jones?

  Luckily, I have this bigger one over here.

• 2:11:15Jocko Willink?

  Did you see Masdevall after his fight? And someone's like, you know, you have beef with this guy? And he goes, he goes, no, I don't have beef with him. If I had beef with him, I'd be waiting for him outside of his house. Yeah, that was legit. Masdevall's fighting Nate Diaz.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:11:31Jocko Willink?

  But I thought that was legit when he says, no, I don't have beef. No, if we had beef, I would be waiting outside of his house. That's what would be happening. So you and I don't have beef.

• 2:11:42Rob Jones?

  No.

• 2:11:42Jocko Willink?

  We, well, that was just a funny thing. Cause when you said we had beef, I was like, oh, we're getting in a knife fight.

• 2:11:47Speaker 02

  Chocolate triggered. You saw.

• 2:11:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:52Rob Jones?

  That's it. That's all my comments. Now we can get to the support.

• 2:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Those are good beefs. Those are good, good comments. We're gonna do some research about Jaco the plaster lantern holder. I, I'm not sure. What do you think? You think it's urban legend or real? Do you think there was a little black kid holding a lantern for George Washington that froze to death? Yes or no?

• 2:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Fact or fiction?

• 2:12:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:12:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're going with it?

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but well, put it this way, it, it might not be exactly that, but I think it's like something. Put it that, it's not nothing. Put it that way. It's not just, ooh, someone made up. That's what I think. Here's the thing. I don't know. That's the first time I heard that story, by the way.

• 2:12:33Jocko Willink?

  I have actually, I have actually, I actually know this. And I cannot remember, like I can't remember it's true or not, because at some point, no, like at some point, I, I, somebody told me that these little statues were called Jaco. And I was like, oh, I wonder why that is. And I figured out where it came from, but I can't remember what the story is. So it could be true, it could be not be true. I don't know yet.

• 2:12:54Speaker 02

  That's what I heard.

• 2:12:55Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna research it.

• 2:12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I would, so I wouldn't be surprised. Most likely case scenario in my head right now is that that story overall is true. Maybe some details here and there, maybe, maybe not true. You know, and it all sort of ties in. Yes. So we'll go with that in that regard.

• 2:13:10Jocko Willink?

  Going, yes. Well, that was just the, one of the vaguest, yes.

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  It's not just, it's not just like, oh, here's a statue that means something else, you know, some other thing, but hmm, this will sound good if we make up this story, you know, based on really like some thinly veiled like element.

• 2:13:28Jocko Willink?

  Here's what concerns me. I think if it was that story that I had read when I researched it in the past, it seems like that would make the connection in my neurons. And I'd be like, oh yeah, that's true. Not quite there.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  You're not feeling that.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  Not feeling that full. I, I remember, but, but I, you know, you're, you're subject to your power of your memory. It was a while ago that I researched that. But anyways, okay. So we got beefs settled. We got Dave Burke. Close.

• 2:14:00Speaker 02

  Still, you know, we're, you know, we're working through it. Dave Burke, you know, maybe when he's.

• 2:14:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because you know how lame I am. When you, when, yeah, when you call me and you're like, hey, you know, the fights are on, you want to come watch the fights? And you live 17 minutes from me? I'm like, oh, I'll buy this, not watching with you. It's like a big thing, right?

• 2:14:25Speaker 02

  Yes. So yeah, when you're thinking 45.

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  15 minute, halfway to LA. Let's face it. Time wise, it's halfway to LA. So let's might as well just be.

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. You're not watching. That's a really harsh way to look at it. Really harsh way to look at it. To say, oh, you only live halfway to LA.

• 2:14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. It's like, I agree. I agree.

• 2:14:46Jocko Willink?

  There was an old Saturday Night Live skit that was just Californian people talking and all they would talk about was the traffic. Like, oh, oh, morning. How was the 405 this morning? Oh, my God, it was a nightmare. And then, you know, they just, that was what the big joke was.

• 2:15:01Speaker 02

  You were on the 101?

• 2:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was 101, 101 got jammed up right around the, you know, exit 48. Oh, I'm glad I got, you know, like that.

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:10Jocko Willink?

  And here you are halfway to LA.

• 2:15:14Rob Jones?

  Can't even go within 50 miles of LA.

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  All right. The struggle's real, but hey, like, like you, like, we all understand now we're powering through it. Not much talk about jujitsu, this podcast, in its direct form. In its indirect form.

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  It was everywhere.

• 2:15:32Speaker 02

  The spirit of jujitsu is everywhere. Yes.

• 2:15:36Jocko Willink?

  Was that the last time that you came here that we trained?

• 2:15:39Rob Jones?

  First time.

• 2:15:40Jocko Willink?

  That was the first time?

• 2:15:40Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:42Jocko Willink?

  Did you like it?

• 2:15:43Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I did. Yeah, it's good. I actually have jujitsu legs made. So now that I'm in my new schedule, I've gone and taken a couple Filipino Kali lessons. Cause I was taking those when I was living in Salt Lake City.

• 2:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:56Rob Jones?

  So now I'm making the transition to finding, you know, the scheduling time where I can go and find a good place to go and start using my jujitsu legs.

• 2:16:05Jocko Willink?

  I like it. Put like hooks on those jujitsu legs.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, like butterfly hook. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Fully so.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Being on the path, supporting others and ourselves, we're doing jujitsu. Highly recommended. Required? We'll say required already.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Let's go with it.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm going with it.

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  Required at some point, required. Anyway, you're gonna need a gi. What kind of gear we're gonna get? We're gonna get an Origin gi made in America. Hundred percent in America. The cotton that's grown to make the fibers, to make the material, to make the gi. To make the weave to make the gi. Cause there's different weaves.

• 2:16:44Jocko Willink?

  One hundred percent.

• 2:16:45Speaker 02

  Made in America.

• 2:16:46Jocko Willink?

  No compromise.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  No compromise.

• 2:16:48Jocko Willink?

  How much compromise?

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  None.

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Zero.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, zero compromise. Hundred percent no compromise. Boom. OriginMaine.com. That's where you can get your gee various levels of geez. I don't even know if there are levels. We'll just say options. Cause there's not like one's not necessarily better.

• 2:17:03Jocko Willink?

  They're just.

• 2:17:04Speaker 02

  That's all a matter of opinion.

• 2:17:05Jocko Willink?

  It's like when you you might like, you might like this Cadillac, or you might like that Cadillac. Cadillac. They're both good cars, right?

• 2:17:14Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Yes.

• 2:17:15Jocko Willink?

  But you might want one for a certain reason instead of another one.

• 2:17:18Speaker 02

  Yep. Fit your uh lifestyle.

• 2:17:24Jocko Willink?

  But you cannot only get geez there, because unfortunately, not everyone does train Jiu Jiu Tzu. And unfortunately, geez are not fully accepted as the garment to be worn in all occasions at all times. We still have to wear other clothes sometimes. And one of those clothes that we sometimes wear most often is something called jeans.

• 2:17:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:17:46Jocko Willink?

  And Origin makes jeans.

• 2:17:48Speaker 02

  American denim. Same deal.

• 2:17:49Jocko Willink?

  Same thing. Same thing. From the time that the atoms that form, that grow, right? The atoms are American.

• 2:18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know if atoms grow, but you know.

• 2:18:03Jocko Willink?

  They they form growth, right? And they have little American flags on those atoms. Cause that's what we do.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  Actually, you're right, actually.

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  And and so, yes, we're talking about patriotism. Rob's a patriot. Rob's serving. Guess what we're doing? What we're doing is trying to bring manufacturing back to America. We just hired more people, by the way. We got more people up at the factory up in Maine, because we're making boots now. Because Americans need boots. They need jeans. So, yeah, if you want to support the United States of America, if you want to bring us back to the leaders of manufacturing, go to OriginMaine.com, get jeans, get geez, get rash guards, get t-shirts.

• 2:18:47Jocko Willink?

  Get joggers if you are a jogger person.

• 2:18:51Speaker 02

  If you're, that is a good, uh, how should I say, very significant, important disclaimer.

• 2:18:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes, cuz I'm not a jogger person.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're not allowed to wear joggers.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  I looked really weird in joggers.

• 2:19:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:04Jocko Willink?

  So don't, don't get those if you're me.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but if you're interested in maximum comfort and functionality to, let's be honest, joggers, when you actually jog in them, which I have like twice, you, they function well. They don't flap around.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  I would never, ever, ever jog in a pair of pants.

• 2:19:23Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 2:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 2:19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, just do shorts.

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like no matter what.

• 2:19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:29Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  You know, not everyone's like that.

• 2:19:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:19:31Speaker 02

  You know, um, but yeah, also supplements, right? Talk about support, this is like actual, physical anatomical support. Yeah.

• 2:19:41Jocko Willink?

  To your whole.

• 2:19:41Speaker 02

  It's a big deal, the whole deal. Building the fibers that support, building the atoms.

• 2:19:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the atoms build the atoms.

• 2:19:48Speaker 02

  Building the atoms straight up, yeah. Or, but while in this case, it can be non-American. Yeah, yeah, sure, that too, but nonetheless, these are, um, we established the fact that these are the most important kind of supplements, right there, cuz they keep you in the game.

• 2:20:04Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:05Speaker 02

  Like how we said before, keep you in the game.

• 2:20:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  It's not something, you're not wa, it's like watering the roots rather than watering the leaves. You don't water leaves.

• 2:20:11Jocko Willink?

  No, don't.

• 2:20:12Speaker 02

  Unless you do water leaves on it, you don't. Maybe water the roots. The roots, exactly, right, so you want those roots to be strong, that's what, super krill oil. Joint warfare, that's what these things do, they water the roots, you grow hard.

• 2:20:25Jocko Willink?

  Also, we got discipline.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  Which Dave Burke is a big supporter of.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:30Jocko Willink?

  He takes discipline, go capsules.

• 2:20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:34Jocko Willink?

  Get his mind right, but guess where you get discipline in the powder, uh, by the way, Andy Burke has been tripling up his scoops. And I rolled with him last night, again, luckily that one wasn't on video.

• 2:20:48Speaker 02

  That video actually, the one of you and Andy rolling, it was like, just for like, three minutes. Was that like, the end of the round or something?

• 2:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was whatever was left on the round.

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that was actually an uncanny, uncannily accurate depiction of rolling with you. It just felt like super heavy and not spazzy, just real heavy and just like, heavy.

• 2:21:10Jocko Willink?

  We should read the comments. We should do a podcast where we just read comments. I know we've talked about that, but that had some funny comments.

• 2:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:17Jocko Willink?

  People just, you know, you talk about political haters, and there were some, some really funny haters. No, they were hating on me, they were hating on Andy, they were hating on jujitsu. I mean, most people were super cool, but the funny ones, the ones that would be worth like, comically reading, were ones that, you know, people that were just talking smack.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  That's how, man. Yeah, that's how. Martial arts is one of those trigger events, you know, like martial arts, diet, raising kids, religion, politics.

• 2:21:44Jocko Willink?

  Sleep, apparently.

• 2:21:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:46Jocko Willink?

  Like, how much do you say, you're gonna actually die?

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:49Jocko Willink?

  Cause you don't sweep. Speaking of discipline, we got new discipline. It's in a can. It's called Discipline Go. It is what I'm gonna call clean energy, right?

• 2:22:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, you've got energy that's, that's not clean.

• 2:22:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, dirty energy.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  It's called drinks with a bunch of sugar in them and other chemicals. This drink has not that in it.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, you, it's clean energy, like, you can't even call it an energy drink.

• 2:22:20Jocko Willink?

  Let me, let me read you the ingredient list. Filtered carbonated water, natural flavor, citric acid, monk fruit. Boom. Did you hear that?

• 2:22:31Speaker 02

  That's clean.

• 2:22:32Jocko Willink?

  That is as clean as you can make a drink. And you know why? You know what's revolutionary? What's revolutionary? The way we're able to do that is because we are pasteurizing this, like what they do with milk. We are pasteurizing it. We're heating it to that certain level, killing all the bacteria or whatever that's in there, so it can stay on the shelf without putting a bunch of chemicals, which is what everyone else does. So, Discipline Go. We got two flavors right now. We got more coming and they're all good. This one's lemon lime. The other one's Tropic Thunder.

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  Oh dang, I don't think I had.

• 2:23:03Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, it's called Tropic Thunder. And sometimes you go, oh, that's a cool name, whatever. It was either that or I had to call it what it is. And you want to know what it is?

• 2:23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, pina colada.

• 2:23:12Jocko Willink?

  It's pina colada. But let's face it.

• 2:23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that doesn't match.

• 2:23:15Jocko Willink?

  I can't come out with something called pina colada.

• 2:23:17Speaker 02

  Off brand.

• 2:23:18Jocko Willink?

  No, not happening. So we called it Tropic Thunder.

• 2:23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:21Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, you can get that Discipline Go cans, all that stuff from originmaine.com.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  Also milk, protein, yes. Dessert in the, or protein in the form of a dessert and this working milk. Protein in the form of dessert for your kid and a snacks, like a sweet snack, we'll say for the kids, right?

• 2:23:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's actually an amazing thing. And then what are you, what are you drinking today?

• 2:23:43Rob Jones?

  Uh, in my, my little thing down there. I got some, uh, Jaco White Tea.

• 2:23:48Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 2:23:49Rob Jones?

  I have never felt more. My mental faculties are just firing on all cylinders.

• 2:23:56Jocko Willink?

  And you're a tea drinker because your wife's from England.

• 2:23:59Rob Jones?

  Big tea drinker. I'm actually trying to create my own drink. You know how Arnold Palmer?

• 2:24:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:05Rob Jones?

  You're a fan of the Arnold Palmer. You like to put a little shot of lemon, lemonade in your iced tea.

• 2:24:09Jocko Willink?

  We have a little flavor coming out for powdered Discipline and a flavor coming out for Discipline Go in the can. And the name of the flavor is Jaco Palmer. And I'm not even kidding. And I'll tell you what, it is the one that, both of them, they are, you like, you like Arnold Palmers?

• 2:24:31Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:31Jocko Willink?

  So if you picture the best Arnold Palmer that you ever had, that's how good these are. I was like, when I, I went through, whatever, eight samples and like no more this, more tea, less that, more. And finally got, when we, when I got the good one, when I got the final one, I told Be Little, I'm like, hey, go manufacture both these things right now. I want this stuff tomorrow. And he's like, it's going to be six weeks. I'm like,

• 2:24:59Speaker 02

  Send me more samples. More samples.

• 2:25:03Jocko Willink?

  All right, so yes.

• 2:25:04Rob Jones?

  I'm trying to get my own drink made, or not made, but kind of make it a thing. You know how when the first time I was here, we went and we had iced teas and I put a little half and half in there?

• 2:25:13Jocko Willink?

  Little hitter, yeah.

• 2:25:14Rob Jones?

  Yeah, so I've, I kind of got that from learning how to drink tea from Pam. She introduced me to the way that English people drink tea.

• 2:25:22Jocko Willink?

  They put milk in there.

• 2:25:23Rob Jones?

  Put a little milk in there. So I came back, I'm American, we like to do the iced tea. And I thought, I'm thinking outside the box, I'm an outside the box thinker.

• 2:25:30Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 2:25:31Rob Jones?

  So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have an iced tea and bring a little half and half too. Pour that in there. Delicious, most people think, oh, it's gross. But what I'm gonna start doing now, I'm gonna start saying, I'll have a Rob Jones. And the waiter will be like, oh, well, no, you don't know that.

• 2:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Iced tea with half and half.

• 2:25:47Rob Jones?

  Iced tea with a little half and half in there.

• 2:25:48Jocko Willink?

  I would have been way more supportive of this if you would have said, oh, so I'm gonna bring it back a little bit, so I put milk in there, vanilla milk, because let's face it, that's an option.

• 2:25:58Rob Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:25:59Jocko Willink?

  That's an option.

• 2:25:59Rob Jones?

  I have tried that.

• 2:26:01Jocko Willink?

  Vanilla milk with iced tea?

• 2:26:02Rob Jones?

  I haven't tried milk. I've tried protein powders like in regular tea.

• 2:26:05Jocko Willink?

  You haven't tried anything.

• 2:26:06Rob Jones?

  Yeah, that's right, that's true.

• 2:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Let's try. But now you and I have beef now.

• 2:26:12Speaker 02

  At this juncture, it wouldn't be that wise to do the milk thing yet, because half and half is gonna be a little bit more widespread at this point. See what I'm saying? If he's trying to establish, the goal is establishing the Rob Jones.

• 2:26:23Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:24Speaker 02

  Like the half and half.

• 2:26:24Rob Jones?

  I want my own drink that everybody knows about.

• 2:26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So in a way, it's kind of up to you, to us, to bolster the availability of milk in a general way.

• 2:26:36Jocko Willink?

  So we can make the Milk Jones.

• 2:26:38Speaker 02

  Milk Jones, oh, yeah.

• 2:26:39Jocko Willink?

  That's the next level.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  That's the next level one. Hey, that's a good, I support.

• 2:26:43Jocko Willink?

  You know the discipline, the Arnold Palmer flavor, which is called Jaco Palmer?

• 2:26:51Jocko Willink?

  It's so good. It's ridiculous. All right, so that's that. Jaco White Tea, all milk, blah, blah, blah, blah. Check.

• 2:26:59Speaker 02

  OriginMaine.com. Boom, get it. Get whatever you need, whatever you like. Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco's Store.

• 2:27:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:27:08Speaker 02

  So, online store, yeah. If you want to represent, you go JacoStore.com, that's where you can get your Defqor shirts. Come on, let's face it, when you see someone representing the Defqor.

• 2:27:20Speaker 02

  It's good, man. But yeah, you can get Discipline Equals Freedom t-shirts, hoodies, lightweight and heavyweight hoodies, by the way. Trucker hat or flex fit, Rob Jones?

• 2:27:32Rob Jones?

  What is a flex fit?

• 2:27:33Speaker 02

  It's the one that fits and flex.

• 2:27:35Rob Jones?

  Oh, like the fitted caps?

• 2:27:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, no, no, they're fitted, but they, they, they have a little stretch in there. So, you know, yeah.

• 2:27:44Rob Jones?

  Dang.

• 2:27:45Jocko Willink?

  Truckers, bro.

• 2:27:46Rob Jones?

  Yeah, I'd have to go truckers.

• 2:27:48Speaker 02

  But not by a wide margin, apparently.

• 2:27:50Rob Jones?

  Well, you know, there's certain instances where the, uh, the flex might be better.

• 2:27:55Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:27:56Jocko Willink?

  We just can't think of any.

• 2:27:57Rob Jones?

  If you're working out, if you're outside, you're gonna be sweating a lot. I don't know.

• 2:28:01Speaker 02

  But we're not against flex fit.

• 2:28:03Rob Jones?

  I like both. But if I had to choose one to wear forever.

• 2:28:07Jocko Willink?

  That was a very political answer you just gave there, Mr. Congressman.

• 2:28:10Rob Jones?

  I had to pick one. But for the rest of my life, I go trucker.

• 2:28:14Jocko Willink?

  There we go. Thank you. Okay.

• 2:28:15Speaker 02

  I prefer the flex fit. Here's the thing. I don't wear hats at all anymore.

• 2:28:19Jocko Willink?

  Why are you anticipating in this debate, bro?

• 2:28:21Speaker 02

  Because when I used to, wear a hat.

• 2:28:23Jocko Willink?

  What made you stop?

• 2:28:25Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know. I think it was like an added stat.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  Did your head get hot in the sun?

• 2:28:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:28:30Jocko Willink?

  And you don't wear a hat?

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  No, sir, I don't. I should.

• 2:28:33Jocko Willink?

  Because fashion sense?

• 2:28:34Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 2:28:35Jocko Willink?

  Because of lack of hat?

• 2:28:37Speaker 02

  Lack of preparation for the hat, head hot scenario. Well, I don't think about it.

• 2:28:43Jocko Willink?

  I literally have a hat with me everywhere I go.

• 2:28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't wear it all the time because I'm not one of those guys.

• 2:28:50Speaker 02

  What guys? The guys who wear hats all the time? Yeah, I dig it. Um, I don't think about it. If my head isn't hot, I don't think about it for whatever reason.

• 2:28:59Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:28:59Speaker 02

  But nonetheless, okay, we got both. That's, that's the good news, Rob Jones. We have both. You can get a good flex fit.

• 2:29:05Rob Jones?

  You can make your own decision.

• 2:29:06Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Yep, you're correct on that one.

• 2:29:08Jocko Willink?

  You are 100% wrong and I am 100% right. Truckers hats are better.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 2:29:14Rob Jones?

  And if you don't like truckers hats, you're evil.

• 2:29:17Jocko Willink?

  Yes, exactly. You are not an American.

• 2:29:20Speaker 02

  Amen. I understand.

• 2:29:21Jocko Willink?

  You're a communist.

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  JockoStore.com.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:29:24Speaker 02

  For you communists or otherwise, you know, whatever, patriot communists. No communists allowed.

• 2:29:30Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, but communists won't represent like that anyway. See what I'm saying? So they're just gonna, they're gonna, what do you call it? They're gonna scroll.

• 2:29:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cool. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, which apparently you haven't done yet, according to Echo Charles. You've listened to 100. 190 whatever podcasts and you didn't subscribe according to Echo Charles so he says you should subscribe.

• 2:29:53Speaker 02

  If you want.

• 2:29:54Jocko Willink?

  And he says if you want in there so it's like.

• 2:29:56Rob Jones?

  So that means you don't have to.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  You don't have to. Oh yeah, you don't have to. It's all optional really at the end of the day. Also Warrior Kid Podcast, subscribe to that one. My daughter has a question for Uncle Jake. By the way, I told her last night that Uncle Jake recommended strongly that she just call him on FaceTime or whatever since she has the direct line. She felt real good about that.

• 2:30:17Jocko Willink?

  I sent her a video today, by the way.

• 2:30:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. She sent me a video first.

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:30:22Jocko Willink?

  From Sarah Charles's.

• 2:30:23Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 2:30:24Jocko Willink?

  She's bringing away the Warrior Kid to school.

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:27Jocko Willink?

  Show and tell.

• 2:30:28Speaker 02

  Yes, she is.

• 2:30:28Rob Jones?

  Nice.

• 2:30:29Jocko Willink?

  She sent me a little video. I'm bringing this book into school. Thank you.

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then she was telling me a little bit about the book and then I said, hey, because she said, she said, there's even a picture of you on the back. And I informed her that her dad took that picture. Echo Charles, that's really the kind of the meat of that book is that that photograph that he took.

• 2:30:46Speaker 02

  That's what I thought.

• 2:30:47Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people.

• 2:30:47Speaker 02

  And I guess there's some cool lessons or whatever, but yes, you are right. That picture.

• 2:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Warrior Kid Podcast, we are in the process of recording a couple right now, which is good. I have a story in my brain for the Uncle Jake story. So we're getting there. So Warrior Kid Podcast, subscribe to that. And also don't forget about Warrior Kid Soap. We got Aiden up in central California, speaking of farming, lives on a farm.

• 2:31:09Rob Jones?

  I use the soap. It's awesome.

• 2:31:10Jocko Willink?

  It is.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  It's, it is very much so, yes.

• 2:31:12Jocko Willink?

  Totally legit. So go to IrishOaksRanch.com and that way you can stay clean.

• 2:31:22Speaker 02

  Also YouTube channel. We do have a YouTube channel officially.

• 2:31:25Jocko Willink?

  Hey, Rob Jones has a Rob, has a Rob Jones for Congress YouTube channel as well. I didn't want to forget about that because you've written some cool videos up there. That's another way to see what's happening.

• 2:31:34Speaker 02

  Or like what kind of videos?

• 2:31:35Rob Jones?

  So far, the only one we have is our announcement video.

• 2:31:38Speaker 02

  No explosions done. Don't worry, we'll talk after this.

• 2:31:40Rob Jones?

  Well, there's a real life explosion in the video.

• 2:31:42Jocko Willink?

  You do have a real life explosion. Is that the actual explosion that you set off?

• 2:31:46Rob Jones?

  No, no, no.

• 2:31:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I was gonna say.

• 2:31:47Rob Jones?

  Well, I mean, we set it up and it was like controlled that. It wasn't the one that I stepped on or anything.

• 2:31:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:52Rob Jones?

  People didn't really pull their cameras out during those situations.

• 2:31:56Jocko Willink?

  It's weird though. There's people that have, there's people that have footage of everything.

• 2:31:59Rob Jones?

  Like some, some guys put cameras on their rifles.

• 2:32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, camera on their rifles, on their helmets. There's videos of everything nowadays. I mean, uh, when, when we had Ron Scher on here, who, who, um, They like assaulted this hill and he's a Medal of Honor recipient. The whole, almost the whole thing is on video. It's on YouTube. You can watch it. It's like, and you watch it and as bad as it sounds when you read about it, as bad as the situation sounds when you read about it, you're like, I'm thinking to myself, man, this sounds absolutely horrible. You watch the video and you go, oh my God. I mean, I was laugh, I was, I was laughing about it with him. Cause these guys get out in the valley. It's not even a valley. It's just, it's a, it's a, it's a ravine. No, it's, it's a, it's a canyon.

• 2:32:44Rob Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:45Jocko Willink?

  They get out at the bottom of the canyon and assault up a hill, a freaking giant reinforced castle. It's like out of a, out of a pre or a medieval movie. And that's what they did. And like, they didn't make it all the way up because it was an impossible task. But yeah, so there, there is a video. That's why when you said, oh, there's explosion. I remember watching that video yesterday. But yeah, not the explosion.

• 2:33:06Rob Jones?

  Yeah, not the, the explosion, no.

• 2:33:08Speaker 02

  But what, um, as far as like videos or whatever, like I'm gonna subscribe, smash the like button, all that stuff. What, uh, what am I gonna be watching?

• 2:33:17Rob Jones?

  Um, yeah, you're gonna be watching stuff like that. You're gonna, mostly the videos that we're gonna be doing is just getting people to know who I am, what I'm about. So there might be some personal stuff on there where I'm going around the district and kinda talking about, oh, you know, what I, this is where I went to elementary school. Uh, this is where I used to go hiking on the Appalachian Trail, you know, stuff like that. So just getting people to know what I'm all about as a person. Uh, so yeah, there's gonna be a lot of that stuff.

• 2:33:43Jocko Willink?

  Cool. If you, if you need footage from the podcast, you can take little clips of your statements and stuff, let Echo know, you know, and then you could, uh, what, edit some of those.

• 2:33:53Rob Jones?

  Yeah, well, yeah, definitely do that.

• 2:33:56Speaker 02

  But yes, we do have our YouTube channel, Jock Podcast YouTube channel. If you're interested in what Rob Jones looks like, if you don't know already, which I think.

• 2:34:03Rob Jones?

  You're gonna be sorely disappointed if you wanna know.

• 2:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Man. And then there's psychological warfare. It's a bunch of me in little short recordings about how the decision that you're about to make, which is the wrong decision that you know, and you need a little something to get you to make the right decision. Psychological warfare will get it done for you. Just press play on your smartphone.

• 2:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Device.

• 2:34:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:30Jocko Willink?

  And you will literally make the right decision.

• 2:34:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, what that does really.

• 2:34:35Jocko Willink?

  And I know literally is overused, but I'm saying you will.

• 2:34:38Speaker 02

  For real.

• 2:34:38Jocko Willink?

  Literally.

• 2:34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:39Jocko Willink?

  Make the right decision.

• 2:34:41Speaker 02

  And it makes sense because it's you talking about them almost making a short term.

• 2:34:46Jocko Willink?

  Thing that we covered on machete season. When the first thing, the when a revolution happens, they take over the radio stations because they want to get right into the thoughts of the people.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:58Jocko Willink?

  Right? No, you don't have to read it. You don't have to interpret anything. It's going into your brain. It's words. That's a psychological warfare. It's going right into your brain.

• 2:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but your words are saying, hey, right now you're about to make a short term play. Hey, let's just shuffle that that over to the long term. That's all we're gonna do. We're gonna make that decision. But instead of short term, we're gonna go long term. That's all we're gonna do right now. And then you go, oh, well, that's what we're gonna do. And then you go do it. That's what it does.

• 2:35:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:22Speaker 02

  Effectively, by the way.

• 2:35:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So you could do that. You could put Akira the dawn. You ever heard of Akira the dawn?

• 2:35:30Speaker 02

  Akira the dawn, yes.

• 2:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Cause you could just listen to Akira the dawn tracks.

• 2:35:34Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Eight minute tracks. What's the music in the background? But then just me talking.

• 2:35:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:35:41Jocko Willink?

  Is that weird?

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:35:43Jocko Willink?

  People dig it.

• 2:35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 2:35:45Jocko Willink?

  I dig it.

• 2:35:46Speaker 02

  I like music in the back of talking. I like that whole thing.

• 2:35:49Rob Jones?

  Well, that's what the good video is and people love that. It's an awesome video.

• 2:35:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:35:53Speaker 02

  Good, good music there.

• 2:35:55Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people think it's maybe what's gets said, but then most people think it's just the video effects that make that video cool. That's what you've told me a lot.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm one of those people for sure, but you know, hey, different perspectives.

• 2:36:06Jocko Willink?

  All right. If you want visual reminders of staying on the path, go to flipsidecanvas.com. That's Dakota Meyer's company and he's making really cool graphic designs, including two that just got released, which are way the warrior kid. Well, one's way of the warrior kid, the rules for the warrior kid, and then, and then also a picture of Mikey. Heading out into the forest to face the dragons.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  Designed by John Bozak himself.

• 2:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Drawn by John Bozak himself. So check those out, flipsidecanvas.com.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  Also on it, on it, fitness, on it.com slash jocko. That's where you can get your kettlebells, battle ropes, rings, highly essential rings, which I didn't know before, I know now, 100% know. Rings, maces, steel maces, steel bells, all this stuff, really good stuff on there. Really good stuff, on it.com slash.

• 2:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Got a bunch of books, got leadership strategy and tactics field manual. I talked a little bit about today. You can preorder it right now if you want to get a first edition. If you don't want to get first edition, just wait, just wait with everything that you do. Go down a path in your life where you're just waiting for everything and nothing ever happens. Do that. Or order now and get the first edition. Also got way the warrior kid three where there's a will. That's also live. You can get that one immediately and there's a way the warrior kid and mark's mission. Those are all available and then my making the dragons. That's the best kids book for ages under six.

• 2:37:34Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:37:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:37:35Speaker 02

  Maybe even over six sometimes.

• 2:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 2:37:37Speaker 02

  Cause those things you forget about that can stuff. You see what I'm saying? And, and it's kind of obvious, like being like afraid of something. Then you say, then somebody will be like, hey, what are you really afraid of? Dang, I didn't really think about what I'm really afraid. It just feels scary. Whatever it is.

• 2:37:52Jocko Willink?

  We had a little incident at the Willing household, uh, two days ago.

• 2:37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:57Jocko Willink?

  It was time to go for an ocean swim with my youngest daughter. There was a tide scenario that was making it the only water entry was a little cliff jump. And my daughter, my daughter was hesitant at the moment of truth.

• 2:38:15Speaker 02

  How high?

• 2:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Not high at all. Depends on where the waves were at and you had to time it well. And there's a lot of, let's say, whitewater activity in the zone, which raised the fear level. In fact, I asked her, what are you afraid of? And she's like, it looks like it's crazy down there. Yeah. But we had a little talk and then I threw her in.

• 2:38:33Jocko Willink?

  I did, I've got to admit, you know.

• 2:38:36Speaker 02

  Wait, but was it like the kind of surprise throw you in or is like, hey, don't worry, you have to make the decision.

• 2:38:41Jocko Willink?

  I gave her, I gave her time to think about it. And actually, part of the reason that I gave her time to think about it was I wanted, I wanted her to experience the fear for a longer amount of time, right? Not just like, no, we gotta do it right now. Let's go. I wanted her to stand there and think about it because that's actually the worst part.

• 2:38:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:38:54Jocko Willink?

  And so then finally, I said, listen, I said, she's like, I really don't want to. It really looks, it looks like it could be really dangerous. It looks like I'm gonna get sucked into those rocks. And I said, you're not gonna get sucked into the rocks. You're gonna be fine. And just so you know, you are going to do this. So we can wait as long as you want, but this is happening. And when my kids know me, like when I say that, it's not, there's no, like, there's not, it's gonna happen. And so I said that to her and she kind of got the defeated look on her face. Because she knew it was gonna happen. And the, the, because tears welling up a little bit. They didn't come out, but I could see it. And, and my youngest daughter, she's got these big, big blue eyes and she's real good with that whole play.

• 2:39:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, she's good. She, my wife, she would break my wife down like a child. I would just snap her morale. No way, my wife stands zero chance. When those, she got those big eyes that it can, it can hold a tear. It can just hold it there, which is even worse, right? The big guy. And so she started doing that with me. Guess what? I don't play that.

• 2:40:02Speaker 02

  Those tears, in the industry, we call those tears falling upon a heart of stone.

• 2:40:06Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that's what was happening. So she started get, working that angle. I said, don't even, don't work that angle. It's happening. We're going off this cliff. So we get, so finally she's different. She looks defeated. She knows it's happening. She walks the edge. And I said, okay. And it was, it's kind of a tight little promontory to try and jump off just a little thing jutting out. It's actually not big enough for two people. So I kind of put her a little bit in front of me. And then I said, okay, we're gonna go on three. And I knew I couldn't actually go with her. Cause there's certain rocks down there you gotta watch out for. So then I just kind of, I go, okay, one, two, scooped her up, grabbed her and threw her off.

• 2:40:47Speaker 02

  And you laughed like that as she was going down.

• 2:40:52Jocko Willink?

  No, the best thing is then she hit the water. She started swimming away from the rocks so she could be safe. And then I I watched her and then and then she looked up and she had a big smile on her face. Cause guess what? It's fun. Yeah. And then we swam, you know, whatever tobacco around the point to the to the to the beach.

• 2:41:07Speaker 02

  Well, that's good though.

• 2:41:08Jocko Willink?

  And I told her, I said, look, that's what that was. That was Mike and the Dragons. That was that was you stood up and faced your fears. That was jumping off the bridge for Mark, where the warrior kid, you just did it. That's what it's about.

• 2:41:18Speaker 02

  But in, when you look at a big picture, like that's a specific scenario where you knew her like capability or limitations or whatever. Cause sometimes like you get someone maybe not comfortable in the water or something like this.

• 2:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, that's.

• 2:41:30Speaker 02

  And you throw them in.

• 2:41:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  And they know they're not looking back smiling. They are traumatized. And now they can't go in the water at all anymore, you know?

• 2:41:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I kinda did that with one of my friend's kids.

• 2:41:43Jocko Willink?

  No, like the dad is a good friend of mine. He's on deployment.

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  You're not invited to my house.

• 2:41:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, he was on deployment. Check it out. He was on deployment. And so while he's on deployment, who guess who's responsible for like making sure that the sun is kinda like, you know, legit, it's me. And I didn't get to see him that much because I was like working and deploying and all that stuff. So I finally saw him at the beach and I was like, cool, we're going in the water. And he's like, I don't really wanna go in there. I was like, oh, what? And I just picked him up and I hugged him out in the surf zone. He wasn't happy. The mom was crying. I know she wasn't crying, but she definitely was like, you know how, you know how sometimes things are unfolding? And you can tell people they're just doing their best just to like detach from it.

• 2:42:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:42:25Jocko Willink?

  She was in that mode. She's a good friend of mine, but she was kinda like, look, I know this guy's probably, this is probably not great, but yeah.

• 2:42:32Speaker 02

  But he handled, or was he like, I don't know if I can even hang with Jaco anymore?

• 2:42:38Jocko Willink?

  It was probably not the best. It was probably not the best move on my part. I also did that one time with a real little kid where I picked this little kid up. And I said, you know, something was a boy, right? And I said something like, oh, there he is. And it's really, oh, yeah. And she's like, oh, isn't he cute? I was like, yeah, and he needs to get used to, you know, things like machine gun fire.

• 2:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Like really loud. And the kid started crying because this kid was like six months older, maybe even a little bit younger.

• 2:43:06Speaker 02

  Oh, baby. Got it.

• 2:43:08Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, so be careful with that.

• 2:43:10Speaker 02

  Well, so you essentially, and I'm trying to gather like info so I can actually use in the real world. So you kind of, you're like on the, on the, what do you call it? On the borderline of too rough, right?

• 2:43:24Jocko Willink?

  Yes, no, and I'm better now. I'm better now. Not to just totally go into like one more little situation. I was surfing with my little daughter, same one, right? And it was, we were done and there's cliffs you got to climb up to get out, carrying your board. It's cliffs, it's a trail, it's a whole nine yards. And so what I did was, she's 10 years old. So I, and it can be hard. And there's little parts where you could possibly fall off, right? Probably not, though. Most likely you're gonna be good if you think about what you're doing. So I get done and I got my board. So I run up to the top of cliffs carrying my board. I put it down and I turn around so I can go help her carry her board for her.

• 2:44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:07Jocko Willink?

  And I thought to myself, if this was my son, when my son was that age, there was zero chance of me going down and helping him. Zero. You figured out, kid. And so I stood there at the top and I just watched her and she made it up. And when she got to the top, I said, you know, I was gonna come help you. I said, but if that was your brother, there's no way I would have ever helped him. And I don't, I would rather have you do it for yourself. What do you want me to do? Do you want me to give you special treatment? Or do you want to be strong? And she's like, I want to be strong. And I said, cool, we're good.

• 2:44:43Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. You can have a tendency to lean, especially when you've got your baby kid, right? The youngest kid.

• 2:44:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:44:51Jocko Willink?

  Especially when they can make those tear thing, the big tears. The big giant tears sitting on the edge of their eyeballs.

• 2:44:57Speaker 02

  But that's how you do run that risk though of going like touch, you know, sticking one toe over the border and making the kid cry.

• 2:45:04Jocko Willink?

  You can traumatize the kid. You can make them hate the water. There's a lot of things you can do. So you've got to be careful. You've got to lean towards, and actually the best policy is you lean towards whatever you do with them builds their confidence, doesn't break it. That's the, that's the line. You say, oh, if I throw them in the water and they get, they get done with it, like, oh, I actually did it. That builds their confidence. Cool. If you throw them in the water and now it freaks them out and you broke their confidence, that's bad. So the line that you should be going for is everything that you're doing with your kids builds their confidence until they become overconfident and then we have to start putting them in check. That's when you take them for the pool competency.

• 2:45:39Jocko Willink?

  All right. Yeah, I did that with my son. I did that with my son. Like, oh, you're good? Okay, cool. I tied his feet, tied his feet together, tied his hands behind his back and I had him do, uh, we call it drown proofing. And the first time he did it, he did not pass.

• 2:45:51Speaker 02

  What age is this one?

• 2:45:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. He's probably like seven.

• 2:45:54Speaker 02

  Damn. All right. That's, that's advanced for seven.

• 2:45:56Jocko Willink?

  He's good now, but you know, the first time I had to, I had to go for the, for the little rescue.

• 2:46:01Speaker 02

  Right. And that's that thing that you say too, right? Where you're like, hey, put them in if they're like in a leadership situation at work or whatever, right? Like you're like, hey, if they're overconfident, give them something just beyond their level. And if they're under confident, not gonna, you give them something that they can sort of do.

• 2:46:15Jocko Willink?

  This is when my son was like starting to get into big waves and you know, you start, if you start getting overconfident with the ocean, the ocean's gonna put you in check.

• 2:46:23Speaker 02

  Big time.

• 2:46:24Jocko Willink?

  So you don't want to let that happen. All right. Back to what we're doing here. Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. That's available as well. It's how you stay on the path as an adult or as a kid. Lots of kids are reading that book as well. The audio version is on iTunes, Amazon Music and Google Play as an MP3 album with tracks. And then finally we've got Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership. Books about leadership that we experienced in combat that Rob Jones is going to bring those principles to the government.

• 2:46:57Rob Jones?

  With your help.

• 2:46:58Jocko Willink?

  Which is outstanding. How many tweets do I get in a day that says about whatever politician on either side that says this guy could use your book, these people could use your book. They say it all the time, send them to Congress, they say. I always say, we'll send them. Give me an address. Echelon Front, that's our leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for details. We got EF Online, which is leadership training that you can do virtually. It's interactive. There's choose your own adventures, decision-making drills in there for leaders. Go to EFOnline.com to check that out. We got the muster. The next one is in Sydney.

• 2:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Sydney, December 4th and 5th, we will be there. Who knows when we'll be back in Australia? In America, the 2020 dates will be out soon. So go to extremeownership.com to pay attention to that. And don't forget that all musters have sold out and all musters will sell out. So we actually rearranged the room in Denver because it sold out so fast that we like needed, we bought more space and made, got more seats, but we can't do that every time. We maxed it out. So if you want to come, go to extremeownership.com. And then EF Overwatch, where we are taking proven leaders. I've got some really good, talking to Mike Sorelli. We got some candidates now that were not candidates, but we got some people that were

• 2:48:27Jocko Willink?

  hired and that have just giving the best experience, but we're getting the best referrals and feedback on the folks that we're placing. These are special operations and combat aviation leaders that are coming off the battlefield and going into civilian companies and helping them with their leadership and helping them win. Communication, it's important. We talked about that a decent amount today. If you want to communicate with us, then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, Instagram, and on Divelfrozenbook. Echo is at EchoCharles. I am at Jocko Willink. Rob Jones, okay, so

• 2:49:07Jocko Willink?

  RobJonesForCongress.com. Facebook is at RobJonesForCongress. Twitter is at RobJonesVA, as in Virginia, right?

• 2:49:18Rob Jones?

  Correct.

• 2:49:19Jocko Willink?

  There was OPVA in Ramadi. And it was OPVA. It was Virginia.

• 2:49:27Rob Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:49:28Jocko Willink?

  But you could have thought it was the VA.

• 2:49:30Rob Jones?

  Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make it Rob Jones for Congress, but they don't allow it to be that long for Twitter, so we had to shorten it.

• 2:49:36Jocko Willink?

  Got it. Instagram, RobJonesForCongress. YouTube, RobJonesForCongress. Echo, anything else? Thank you, Rob Jones, for coming again. Rob, any final thoughts?

• 2:49:47Rob Jones?

  Yeah, you know, I've been lucky enough. There have been kind of three main influences in my life, external influences. Marine Corps, Jim Jones, which maybe we can talk about someday as well. It had a big impact on me at the right time. Finally, you know, Extreme Ownership, Jaco, Echo, you know, the podcast and everything. And I've been lucky enough to not only interact with all three of those, become a part of all three of those, befriend, you know, all three of those. You know, I'm just, I just remain incredibly grateful that I've had these opportunities. So thanks for having me on again. Looking forward to the next time already.

• 2:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, as you can imagine, the door is always open anytime you want to come on, you know, just knowing you, hearing your story, getting to see the way that you're operating out in the world. I throw that out there, oh, he's an inspiration. You're an inspiration, bro. I mean, the fact of what you've done, what you continue to do, it's awesome. And it's, you might think it's cool to be here. It's even cooler for us, for me, to have you here and hang out and get to talk to you and hang out with you. So thank you for coming back. More important, thanks for the service and sacrifice that you've made for our country and that you continue to make.

• 2:51:12Jocko Willink?

  And what you're going to make in the future, you are a leader, you are a warrior. And thank you and to the rest of our warriors out there that are face to face with the forces of darkness in the world. Thanks to you all and to your families for your service and your sacrifice and here at home. Thanks to our police and our law enforcement and our firefighters and our paramedics and our EMTs and our dispatchers and our correctional officers and our border patrol and our ICE agents and our secret service and all the first responders out there. Thank you for protecting us here at home.

• 2:51:56Jocko Willink?

  And everyone else that's out there, if you think you've kinda, you think you've kinda maxed out on what you can do. If you think maybe it's time to back off the gas pedal a little bit and relax. If you think you've given everything that you can give right now, well, while you're thinking that, why don't you just take a moment and think about Rob Jones. Think about Rob Jones, who's still going, who's still going strong despite everything that life has thrown his way. He's still going no matter what.

• 2:52:39Jocko Willink?

  He gets up and he gets after it. And I recommend that you all do the same. And until next time, this is Rob Jones and Echo and Jaco. Out.