194: Costly Pitfalls to Avoid and Critical Maneuvers. How to Win in American Business. With Pete Roberts

0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:42 - Pete Roberts on how to build an American Business. 1:41:02 - Updates and How to Stay on The PATH 2;27:14 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 194 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  As a leader, you have to put others before yourself.

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  And that starts at the beginning and it starts with everything that you do.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  You have to let the men eat first. You have to make sure that they have the gear that they need. You have to let them get rest before you do.

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  That's how it works.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  You have to make sure that they have what they need to accomplish the mission. And then on top of that,

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  you have to make sure that the mission aligns with the good of the troops.

• 0:59Jocko Willink?

  And this is hard for some people to understand, but this applies to any organization. The military, a business, a sports team.

• 1:10Jocko Willink?

  And you have to make sure that the troops understand that there may be short-term sacrifice.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  There may even be the ultimate sacrifice.

• 1:27Jocko Willink?

  In war,

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  men may be killed for the cause.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  But that cause must be just.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  And that cause must, even in death, benefit those who may have to give that last full measure. And that, that may sound impossible, actually. Because how can anyone benefit from their own death? And the answer is actually quite simple. When military personnel risk their lives, they do so to provide safety and security for their country.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  The country where their families live. And those individuals put their families above themselves and as a military leader, if you do see that a mission does not ultimately lead to the safety and security of the families of the people that you do lead, then it's your obligation to raise this up the chain of command and fix it.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  Then the same thing holds true in business as a leader, you must put the good of the troops above yourself.

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  Now, the thing that might seem impossible here is that the overarching measurement of the success of a business is to be profitable.

• 3:02Jocko Willink?

  And to maximize profit, one of the things that you do is you cut costs. And one of the easiest places to cut costs in any business is people.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  You minimize what you're paying people or you get rid of people and then you maximize profit.

• 3:28Jocko Willink?

  So how can this leadership principle work? How can you take care of people while at the same time maximizing profitability? And the answer is that you have to look at the long game.

• 3:40Jocko Willink?

  You have to see that the stronger you build a business, the more long-term stability you build and the more long-term stability you build, the more stability you build for your employees.

• 3:54Jocko Willink?

  And when you're stable, that allows you to grow. And when you grow your business, the employees have the opportunity for growth.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  And those opportunities improve the lives for everyone, for the employees, for their family and thereby the whole community. That's what happens.

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  But then what happens when leaders don't put their people first?

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  In the military, it can result in operations going wrong. It can result in senseless strategies. And in the military, it can result in wasted lives.

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  And in business, you can see another kind of destruction in business. It can mean loss of growth, for sure. It can mean loss of revenue. Yes, it can mean loss of jobs. But eventually, it can mean the collapsing

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  of communities, the collapsing of cultures.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  Now, of course, a balance has to be found and profitability must be maintained.

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  But the dollar must not trump the people.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  And it certainly must not. Regardless of your capitalistic goals, the dollar must not trump the communities that built the businesses in the first place.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  The pursuit of money must not jeopardize the very fabric of the country that gives us the promise for the unhindered pursuit of that money in the first place.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  And yet, we've seen that take place. We've seen that take place in our own country.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  In cities and in towns and in states where saving a dollar

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  meant closing a mill. It meant shutting down a factory.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  In places where making more money in the next financial quarter caused leadership to forget the long-term impact and sell the future of those people for cash in hand in the immediate.

• 6:39Jocko Willink?

  And that disease, that plague of greed can spread.

• 6:49Jocko Willink?

  And it has hurt various parts of America at various times.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  And when that's happening, while the people at the top might build themselves a fortune, it's a fortune built on despair and it's a fortune built on destruction and in the end,

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  that will come back to haunt them.

• 7:17Jocko Willink?

  Because it is not the right thing to do.

• 7:24Jocko Willink?

  And it does not have to be that way.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  Because there are leaders who recognize the long-term positive impact of growth and the long-term positive impact of putting your people first.

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  Putting your community first.

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  Putting your country first.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  And one of those leaders

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  happens to be a business partner of mine, happens to be a friend of mine. And his name is Pete Roberts, the founder of Origin USA. And once again, we are in the woods, in the foothills of Maine's Western Mountains for our Jiu-Jitsu Immersion Camp, which means it's time for us to record a podcast. And if you don't know Pete, then go back and listen to Podcast 93 and then listen to Podcast 141. And then you can rejoin us here because once again, we have Pete Roberts on the podcast. Pete? Welcome back.

• 8:46Pete Roberts?

  Thanks for having me. That was powerful. I was just, you know, you get into that rhythm and I'm just, my head's I just catch myself going up and down like shit. The way you captured what you just said is, I try to say the same thing. I say it differently, but man, the, the impact, you know, and, and how important community is. I know how, how important it was to New England towns, but it's not just New England towns. It's all towns, all people. And, uh, man, you're absolutely right.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, with the, with the standard that we're holding at origin,

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  the standard is made in America, right? We see every single day, every single day, a corner that could be cut. We could make a compromise. And you know what? The profit margins would increase.

• 9:33Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 9:34Jocko Willink?

  The profit margins would increase a little bit. And, and every day, you and I get to see that. And you're in it, you know, you're here, you get to see it, you know, five times a day, eight times a day. You see a decision that could be made. You know what? Hey, we could just get this thing instead. And the profit margins go up a little bit. And every day you hold the line.

• 9:57Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. And I think if you, you know, like the statement I like to make is, well, if you, if you follow the truck back to the source, you're going to end up in a cotton field in the Tennessee Delta region. So if you, if that's your standard, the supply chain is between here and there. Like, like you said, like, oh yeah, we could like building the boots or the jeans, the little buttons, little brass buttons, the letter tags, all these things. If you follow that supply chain back, you're touching not just your local community, but the thousands and thousands of hands in all the communities in between that supply chain. And I think that's the easiest place that you could get rid of some of that. But it's also the most important if it, if you're truly doing something more than

• 10:42Pete Roberts?

  trying to, trying to earn your way to the top, right? And I think that in the past, you know, we talked, we've discussed this, you know, in depth in the past, you know, and you look at all the free trade agreements, all that stuff, whatever, whatever, you know, the sides you're on, on that thing.

• 10:58Pete Roberts?

  It was greed. It was greed and.

• 11:05Pete Roberts?

  The people do the work. You know, yeah, there's minds at the top, you know, and there's minds crunching numbers and designing stuff, but the people do the work. You know, and the beautiful thing that we're doing is we're resurrecting that heritage. And I'll tell you what. I mean, we've been together now, what, three years? I think it's been about three years. And going from, I don't know what we started at, like 10 people or?

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  I think there was eight people when I, when, when I came, when we merged, it was eight people.

• 11:39Pete Roberts?

  So maybe last year we had 25 people. There's 50 people now in the factory. 50 people.

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, the, um, and I was telling kind of the crew this the other day when we gave the tour.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, I'm sitting here saying this stuff, right? And, and I'm talking about being greedy. And immediately if you go, okay, well, this guy's not greedy. There's like a, there's like a point where you say, okay, well, what does he believe in? And I actually, in my mind, I was thinking that because here I am talking about, hey, you can't be greedy. And then I said, listen, I am, I am an absolute hardcore capitalist and I love deal making. I mean, you, you get to see me now because we do business, you know? I mean, I love making deals. I love making things happen. I love making money. Like it's great. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a great contest. It's a great way to keep score, you know, it's, it's fun. Right? And I'm absolutely a capitalist, but

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  there's such an easy line to draw. So I don't even think it's that hard to draw. It's not like it's a hard decision to make and, oh, I don't know what I should do. It's like, no. You, you make money, but you do the right thing and you make sure that you're taking care of people. You're making sure you're making the right decisions. And that's what you do. And this is the, the, the cool thing about it, and this is where people make the mistake is in the long run. In the long run, you'll do better. It's just like leadership, just like leadership. If you're taking care of your people, in the long run, they're going to take care of you. And that's going to be the, the long-term victory is going to be better than looking for the short-term. Hey, I bark at you if you work for me and I bark at you and you go ahead and do it right now because you don't want to get in trouble, but you're looking for another job. Even though I got you to do what I want you to do, it doesn't matter.

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  Long term, I'm gonna lose. And when I'm taking investment away from the people that actually support the community, where we are, then that's just a bad decision in the long run. And again, short term, it looks, might look great.

• 13:32Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Jocko Willink?

  Long term, what does it look like? It's a bad deal. It's a bad deal for the community, which makes it a bad deal for the country. And if the, if our country's having a hard time, well, guess what? What have we got?

• 13:43Pete Roberts?

  Hundred percent. You've got abandoned mills and factories falling apart in these towns. Hundred percent.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  So you just talked about growth. What, what have you seen from a leadership perspective? You've doubled inside, eh, in size. And I know I said to you the other day, I said, hey Pete, it's gonna get to a point where you're not gonna be able to really, you know, when you got 20 people, we got eight people, clearly, you, you, you, I mean,

• 14:09Pete Roberts?

  Personal relationships with everybody.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  Families are eight people, right?

• 14:12Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  When you got 25 people, well, now we're talking cousins and uncles and aunts. Maybe you don't know all of them that well. And there's probably that one weird, you know, couple.

• 14:20Pete Roberts?

  You've recruited all you can.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, like you're there. And now when you get to 50 people, well, there's people that, you know, you, you're, you're just, you're just not sure. And, and you don't see them every day because you're busy, they're busy, they're working, you're working. So you start to, you start to rely on, you start to rely more on your leadership team to carry the message through the company. How's that been for you?

• 14:45Pete Roberts?

  Honestly, I'll tell you, and I don't want this to sound like, you know, oh, this is, this is the, the only thing you should go by. But dude, when, when we did, when we like, when I pushed Extreme Ownership, I, I had a stack of books and all my leadership and anybody else interested, I didn't just hold it to the leadership, but anyone interested in being part of this company long term, I want you to read this book. I'd recommend you read this book. And I had people say, well, I, I, I don't read. And I'd be like, cool, I'll pay for, I'll pay for, for download on your phone. I'll give you cash, download it. And that's what I, you know, and it's like, well, I don't have time. Oh, well, put the headphones on while you're sewing.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 15:28Pete Roberts?

  Download it, you know, and I got, I got you. So that changed a lot. It changed, it changed me a lot. And we've talked about this in the past, but the biggest thing is how important for me decentralized command was. The decentralized command.

• 15:47Pete Roberts?

  And decentralized command and the biggest part of that was I was telling you this the other day like 70 100 what do I mean well you've got to allow people and empower people and your leaders to make decisions right and if you can get them to a 70% decision which I learned at the muster also you know and I took if you can get them there man that's a that's a great thing it's a great example we're sitting here in this pro shop at the immersion camp to get everything here it took it took five or six trucks and I'm talking a 26 foot U-Haul an 18 foot trailer another 24 foot trailer and it took a team of 20

• 16:26Pete Roberts?

  people to get everything here and I took my wife Amanda to the to muster in DC and my father-in-law Joe and Brian our business partner came and his wife Megan and and we went through it and when you discussed this does it always have to be 100% like I feel like I'm gonna make 100% decision maybe that's a little bit of ego talking you know but I feel like my decision is always gonna be 100% right and I thought that it was too too dangerous to allow anything less so what I used to do is I used to flank people to buy into my idea you know what I mean like flank up to buy into my idea until they

• 17:10Pete Roberts?

  until they could see it but I had to get them to see it to buy in and now it's it's different and like setting up this pro shop I know we were it was early in the morning and he's like man your teams your team's going early right and I was like yeah they were up at 5 getting everything set up and I was like but I'm not there right now I'm I'm hanging back there's a few things I gotta do here to prep and Amanda's handling it my wife is handling it and I'm like it's the 70 100 and you're like what do you mean I'm like you know the 70% 100 you're like check she she called me two hours later we're good to go I was like I don't think I could have gotten that done in two hours my 100% I don't think I would have gotten it done in two hours

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  It maybe would have been another 70% maybe it would have been 65 maybe it would have been maybe it would have been 80 maybe it would have been an 82 the bottom line any of that discussion argument that you know planning would have just wasted valuable time on both ends

• 18:08Pete Roberts?

  Yep and but we did do that we did because I it was the night before I was like But can you see logistically that coming into this camp in the woods, you can't get four trucks in? I'm like, you gotta be able to see that. You need to, this needs to happen methodically. You know, so as this one's unloading and leaving, the next one's coming in.

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying you did waste time discussing it?

• 18:35Pete Roberts?

  I did, I did.

• 18:36Jocko Willink?

  And then you let it go?

• 18:37Pete Roberts?

  And then I let it go. Yep. I said, I think you've got a good plan. I think that's gonna work. Let me know what you need. And I got behind supporting the plan.

• 18:47Jocko Willink?

  That's the way, that's, yeah. So there's a, there's a great example of decentralized command. And so that's now what you've had to do with everything. Because you can't manage it all. Because this is, you know, we work with, at Echelon Front, we work with all different companies, but obviously work with startup companies. And we see this kind of growth and these are the kind of things that trip them up. They get the guy who's a visionary, like you're the big visionary. And then you start saying, well, I can, you know, I started this thing, when I started this thing, I was making every decision. And now all of a sudden you look up and if you were trying to make every single decision that was going on in the factory, it would be a total disaster.

• 19:21Pete Roberts?

  Oh, a thousand percent, a thousand percent.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  What, what has necessitated the, the doubling in size this year? And it's not just a doubling in people, because when you get people, what else do you need? You need space.

• 19:36Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  So we got two more buildings.

• 19:39Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. Man, the, the new, the Origin Labs facility, the warehouse, that was a super challenge, dude. We, I don't know, you know, remember on the Instagram, I don't know if you saw that echo, like all of a sudden it was flooded, you know, and we had to spray foam, because you know, this is in an extreme environment.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 19:58Pete Roberts?

  Extreme hot and extreme cold during the winter. But we're trying to get everything into the warehouse. It's not insulated. We gotta get a heating system in and, you know, it's just one of those things where you just grind and grind and grind. But we, we negotiated a great deal on that property. And the next property is gonna allow us to expand a little more. You know, and I think, I think that.

• 20:23Pete Roberts?

  I think we're gonna have some challenges ahead of us because we've expanded to three locations, but we've almost created a Bermuda Triangle of sorts. The way that we secured the locations, the facilities, it's efficient. It's like lean manufacturing of, you know, in between the factories. You know, the way you can get from, you know, one point to the next to maximize, maximize your time. But, you know, the labs facility is awesome and we're filling 500 to 1,000 packages a day out of there. We're filling.

• 20:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:00Pete Roberts?

  All leaned out from a shipping perspective.

• 21:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Pete Roberts?

  And in the next facility, which will be moving into, what, next week? Next week? You wanna hang out and move some of those machines with us?

• 21:12Jocko Willink?

  I wish I could, actually.

• 21:13Pete Roberts?

  Be badass. Where all the shoe manufacturing machinery will be going and the screen printing and some rugged materials. So 22,000 square feet there, 17,000 square feet in labs, and of course, we're chewed up 21,000 square feet currently. So, growing quickly and, yeah, leadership has been essential and decentralized command essential in that growth and impossible without it.

• 21:38Jocko Willink?

  And seeing your, and I noticed this from early, you know, I'd come up and someone would pull me aside and say, hey, you know, in chapter four, you're talking about this. You know, and they'd ask me questions.

• 21:48Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 21:49Jocko Willink?

  And I'd just be, it was such a great sign because when people don't recognize how important their job is and how important they are as a leader, that's not, that's just, it's just not gonna work. But when someone realizes that they're having a huge impact with every part of their department and that their leadership is the most important thing in that department, when they realize that and they start taking ownership of it, that has an impact. And that's what, it was good for them. I saw that early on. I saw that early on. You know, we did like a little, a little session and, but, and people were asking me questions during the session, but afterwards, you know, people coming up, hey, I wanted to, wanna ask this in front of everyone, but what do you think about this? How should I handle that?

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  And so the people are aware and that's, I think that's one of the things that has, I'm not saying there's not growing pains, cause I mean, of course, there's growing pains, but most of the growing pains are, are like, um, Almost like physical growing pains.

• 22:45Pete Roberts?

  Sure.

• 22:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, like when you leave, when your son grows four inches in six months and he's says, you know, hey, my knees kind of hurt.

• 22:52Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Jocko Willink?

  That's just a physical, yes, it's gonna hurt. You're growing. Sorry, dude. But as far as, you know, the psychological trauma of all the, you know, brain damage about this and that. The other thing is very limited right now, which is amazing to see.

• 23:07Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it is. And we're talking about people who weren't leaders prior to origin. You know, nobody had a leadership position. Nobody had a management position. You know, and the leaders that we've built, they're, they're not entitled to it. You know, it's weird because you got people who go through, let's say they go to college to be, you know, in business management or leadership or whatever. There is so much potential in people who just want to work and be part of something. There's so, they find so much motivation in that. I would rather have someone, and when I do like job interviews, I say, hey, like one of the first questions, are you looking for a job? Are you looking for a career? And that's kind of a loaded question.

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 23:52Pete Roberts?

  When I hear, I'm looking for a career.

• 23:56Pete Roberts?

  Okay, we're gonna dig deeper into this conversation now. I'd rather take someone who's looking for a career that has no leadership skills and give them the opportunity. Cause I know long-term, they're gonna be an incredible asset to the company.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  And that's the same theory that we have with EF Overwatch, with, with hiring vets, with bringing vets in. Look, a veteran might not have worked in whatever industry you're in, but that person is hungry. They got leadership skills, they got discipline, they, and especially the group that we got, we got, they, they study and train in extreme ownership and the principles, so they, they know how to lead. And we're getting the feedback that we're getting is phenomenal because people hire somebody and they go, well, you know, they feel like they're taking a little bit of a risk because the person, it's, you know, it's this person that was in the, in the army for 21 years. Or this person who's been in the whatever industry, the, the, the, the gas oil industry for

• 24:53Jocko Willink?

  Twenty one years and you think, well, we should probably just hire the guy that kind of has experience. And we're finding over and over and over again, that guess what? You take that person that's really hungry, that has good leadership skills. They step into that role, they learn the this industry, industry specific stuff and they and they rock and roll. And I tell, I tell kids this all the time, not, not kids, but you know, college kids, college graduates, college graduates. If you're that person that will work hard, you can, there's so many companies, because I work with so many companies. They, there's a drought of people. No one's like, hey, yep, we got all the good, I've never, I have never been to a company where they said, yep, we got all the good people we need. We don't need anyone else. We don't need anyone other good people.

• 25:38Jocko Willink?

  I've never heard anyone say anything close to that, ever. Even companies where you know people are banging on the door to get in, big tech companies that have, that have popcorn machines in the hallways. And I want to work there, right? There's people banging on the door to get there. You know what those big tech companies say? They say, how do you think we could get better people that are willing to go hard? So it's exactly what you're saying. If you, if you look for someone, if you look for somebody that has that hunger and has that desire. And then they actually have to have it. Because believe me, there's people I can interview, great, and say, oh yeah, I'd love to grind. What's your biggest weakness? My biggest weakness is sometimes I work too hard, right?

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  That person, and then you show up and they're, they're, they're in the freaking Twinkie stash. So I'm not talking about. I sometimes I get in the Twinkie stash.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  I saw you getting in the donut stash today, bro. Are you okay? No, I'm, I'm there and I'm good now. You had like insulin spike, your face was kind of sagging.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  I was like, I'm gonna go lay down. Yeah, I mean, I can literally never eat a donut again. If I do, I always think there's going to be someone with a, with an iPhone over there in the corner. And that's going to be the viral, the only viral video of Jocko won't be something that Echo made.

• 26:58Jocko Willink?

  Me eating a donut.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Maybe my video of you eating a donut.

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  That would be a, that would be a major kind of situation that we'd have to discuss.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like treasonous.

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that would be, I've, I haven't been betrayed very much. In fact, I've only been betrayed one time. But if that I would consider that we'd have to we'd have to put that in that would be a consideration of betrayal.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think I would do that.

• 27:23Jocko Willink?

  But don't worry, you don't have to worry because I'm not eating any doughnuts.

• 27:25Pete Roberts?

  ECHO, did you have any baklava the other day?

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:28Pete Roberts?

  How many pieces?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Two.

• 27:29Pete Roberts?

  Two pieces? That's a good, that's a good start.

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  How many did you feed me?

• 27:32Pete Roberts?

  Oh dude, I would just kept shoveling. You were busy. I don't think you even know you were taking.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  What is, what is like the sweets like part, the moist, like the really like almost wet part?

• 27:43Pete Roberts?

  That's like the, the, the honey, the sugar syrup. But you know, that's a special recipe.

• 27:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Pete Roberts?

  You know, we were, we, when we were, uh, we went to Harry's dine, we were in New York City and at Harry's Steakhouse and we're eating with Harry and we sent him baklava.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 27:59Pete Roberts?

  And my mom, she, she called me and she's like, you sent baklava to New York City to a guy who owns a big restaurant? I go, yeah. She goes, you didn't send the recipe, did you? And I was like, no, no, I just sent him baklava. She was upset. She thought I had like sent him the recipe to make the baklava. It is, it is legit a secret recipe and there's one thing that she does to make it as good. And I'll, I'll tell you what it is after the podcast.

• 28:26Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 28:27Pete Roberts?

  It's, no one else does it.

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 28:29Pete Roberts?

  It's an old Spartan recipe.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there you go. That's Pete's mom's special recipe. Okay. So there's got to be demand. There's got to be something driving this growth, obviously, you know, and it's been a, it's been a continual kind of rapid, rapid, there's just continual product invention, for lack of a better word.

• 28:51Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Jocko Willink?

  And, and one of the things and you and I were talking this morning. I was holding, I was putting on a, I was getting another Rift Gi.

• 29:00Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Jocko Willink?

  And I know not everyone does jujitsu, but the Rift Gi is like.

• 29:09Jocko Willink?

  It's like a complete, i- i- it's like a new product. It's like it doesn't exist until now. And it's weird to say that about, I guess it'd be, I don't know, what's a good, what's a clothing product that like completely changed, like it didn't exist and now it does.

• 29:23Pete Roberts?

  Well, I would say that's easy. That that would be the compression shirt Under Armour came out with. Cause we, we both played college football. Remember we had the grays, the cotton, the cotton shirts and the cotton shorts. And you wore that cotton tee shirt underneath football pads and then Under Armour came out with the, the football shirt. And it changed, it changed the game.

• 29:41Jocko Willink?

  Now, now you would, you're not gonna play with this old thing anymore.

• 29:44Pete Roberts?

  Never wear anything else again.

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  Right. And that's what the rift is like. You're not, you're not gonna, you're not gonna go, oh, cool. I'm just gonna wear another gi today cause I have it. No, it's no, I just, I'm just gonna wear this gi. The, the, the whole thing is engineered brand new.

• 30:02Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Jocko Willink?

  Right? You, I, did you, was the football jersey thing, like, was that an inspiration for coming up with a rift?

• 30:09Pete Roberts?

  I, absolutely, absolutely. The, because of the performance, like, we developed this polysynth fiber. You know, what I like to say is, you know, we, we didn't just manufacture it, we synthesized this thing. You know what I mean? Like synthesized. And we, you know, I don't, I don't know if I told you how much money we spent on developing this fiber.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  You might've kept that from me.

• 30:33Pete Roberts?

  I probably just didn't think, tell you, but you know, we, we had the, I think I told you, we had to order this whole batch of yarn. We had, and you've got to set up the frigging loom. And there's 3,000 ends, right? And it, and it takes 60 hours to set it up. And, and we had to have the yarn spun and then we did it and we're like, it's not good enough. So you have all these prototypes, you know, we've got to get rid of. Then we've got to get the yarn again. They were like, it's not twisted strong enough. It's pilling too much. We need to tuck the ends. And you're talking these little freaking fibers. Individual fibers, you know, and well, it's not abrasion resistance enough. And so,

• 31:12Pete Roberts?

  you know, when you take away the garment itself and the cut and the spiral wrap and how it functions on your body and you go right back to the fiber, that's where we had to start. You know, we had to start from that point and then develop the weave, the dragon weave gen three. And it's hard to explain unless you put it on. Of course, you were down there again, like King Arthur, like the rift behold. And you put it on, you know, and you're like, bro, bro. This thing is just ridiculous.

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  And that was, by the way, fresh out of the package.

• 31:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  When you take any piece of clothing fresh out of the package, it, it, well, in my, in my opinion, it all sucks coming out of the package. When you take it out of the package, you're meh, you know, this doesn't, this thing is out of the package. It's brand new. And you put it on and it feels like, it feels like it's been.

• 32:01Pete Roberts?

  You've skinned a unicorn.

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Pete Roberts?

  Something like that.

• 32:06Jocko Willink?

  So, so that's like an example of product moving forward, making things. And this is the, the, the other kind of thing that is happening because of our sport. Stuff has to be extremely durable, right? So you're making something that just doesn't feel good because you can make something that feels good. It has to be durable.

• 32:28Pete Roberts?

  And that's the tricky part, right? Because if you look at the way they make things soft or to feel good against the skin, usually what that means is they're deteriorating the textile a little bit. Right? They're breaking it down so that those fibers touch your skin and they feel all smooth and comfortable. And we, we couldn't deteriorate the strength of the garment. So we had to find a way to do that with the yarn. Right? That's the key is find a way to make the yarn comfortable and then the weave and then make the garment form around your body. And the way I explain it's like, if you took a, if you took a baseball or lacrosse ball and you took this piece of paper and you wrapped it around, see if you can get it smooth. Can you get it smooth? No, you're going to have wrinkles all through it.

• 33:13Pete Roberts?

  Right? And, and that's what basically every gi on the planet is like. All right, now if you take that same piece of paper and you just strip it into straight strips, and then you start wrapping those strips around that ball, what are you gonna get? You're gonna get a smooth surface. And that's why we call it the spiral wrap, because it strips that spiral around your body, you know, in seven panels. And yeah, it's innovative. I don't know if there's another, it shouldn't exist. The garment shouldn't exist.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, coming off of that, and while you're working on that, and I'm all, this is coming home from a trip where I was up here and seeing the factory and being, you know, just kind of in that spiritual high from seeing our people, American people, working hard, like dedicated, like passionate about doing a good, like just seeing everything in action. And I was flying home, and I remember I was laid over somewhere, and I'm sitting in the airport, and I'm just looking at everyone while I'm sitting there. And I see that, and I called you. And I said, "Hey Pete, man." And you said, "Yeah." And I said, "How many people do you know that do jiu-jitsu?"

• 34:26Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, "Um, I don't know, a hundred?" And I was like, "Cool." "How many people do you know that wear jeans?" And you said, "Everyone." And I said, "I'm in the airport right now, and eight out of 10 people are wearing jeans."

• 34:44Pete Roberts?

  I remember that conversation.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  "We need to make jeans." And you go, "I've always wanted to make jeans."

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  You said, "I've always wanted to make jeans." And that was the opening of a whole new game, right? A whole new market and a whole new world. From that conversation, what was the next step from there?

• 35:14Pete Roberts?

  You know, when we had that conversation... And I don't know, you might have told me this fact. In America, there's 300 million Americans. You know how many Americans actually own jeans? 298 million.

• 35:31Pete Roberts?

  298 million. People own jeans.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  And there's 2 million communists that don't own jeans.

• 35:42Pete Roberts?

  You know, it was, uh. I knew we could make the product, you know, and honestly, like. I always wanted, like, I couldn't afford nice jeans as a kid. You know, I remember going into like the Banana Republic or the Gap and basically looking at stuff and trying it on and. Uh, you know, four kids, my mom, you know, $24,000 a year with four kids, she just didn't have a lot of extra. And we would get like one nice thing before the school year started. And of course, school starts for our kids. My daughter started school today. You know, and I think about what she has. And what, you know, the hard, what hard work has, has allowed us to do for the kids to start school with a new pair of sneakers and some clothes.

• 36:24Pete Roberts?

  And I think about like jeans have always been important to me because we couldn't afford them. And it was, it was always the. It wasn't just the style of it, but it made you feel alive. It made, they made you feel free. You know, and they've always represented that. I mean, in digging into denim in the, around the globe, not just America. If you start connecting denim, you see they represent like freedom, revolution, independence, empowerment, right? They represent these things and.

• 36:55Pete Roberts?

  I was so damn excited you were on board with it. Just like, yes, I think it was just like, yep.

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  You just needed a little, you were like Frankenstein, just needed a little spark.

• 37:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, you know, and of course, well, you know, as, as a, exactly, exactly. Just turn it on because. You know, managing, you know, all these people, managing, you know, the factory, a couple of locations and the growth, right? Of course, you don't want to make mistakes. You still gotta be a little bit naive enough to think you can, you can do it though. And I knew we could do it because we've been making this stuff for combat sports. We've been making products that people are yanking on, ripping at, pulling, wrapping around arms and heads with.

• 37:40Pete Roberts?

  And I knew we had the setup to make durable goods. And denim was, to me, it was like, well, if we make this, it will be the most durable jeans ever made. Because we're going to apply the same techniques and concepts we've developed for the past six years, manufacturing stuff for combat sports. And we're going to apply the same thing to this.

• 38:06Pete Roberts?

  And that's what we did. And we just did it, man. I mean, I don't even know how to explain it. I go, I mean, we got Liza, our pattern maker. And we just started having her work and I'd overnight do samples, send them back, wear them. You know, and the first ones weren't amazing. They were, but honestly, like, got the textile right. You know, American cotton, little bit of stretch, you know, modern, but still super durable. And then we started sewing it together with those three needle like chain stitch machines.

• 38:36Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 38:37Pete Roberts?

  Which you just don't find anymore.

• 38:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 38:38Pete Roberts?

  You know, you just don't, you don't find it. It's hard to do that.

• 38:41Jocko Willink?

  If you go with two needles, then you cut your cost of thread by a third.

• 38:45Pete Roberts?

  Done. And if you go into the store and look at what they actually have, it's usually just one thread.

• 38:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Pete Roberts?

  The seams, you know, it's just one, one machine. So, and it's easy to cut costs like that. And it's just like, well, that's just not what we're doing. So. It was challenging, you know, I think it's not just developing the product because you can, and this is across the board when you're starting something new. Even though we've been making all these gees and, and stuff for jujitsu, it's still a different product and there's still style. You still have to have some type of style and, you know, call that form, right? Well, there's, there's like jeans out there and it's all, all, all form. Right? And then you've got stuff that's just simply function. Right? And the idea is you've got to balance those two things out.

• 39:35Pete Roberts?

  You can't be too over the top, too extreme. It's just like balancing out leadership. I mean, it's really the same thing, form and form and function, the balance of those two things. You know, and we didn't get it right, right off, you know, and you're like, you're like, bro, this yoke here in the back, you know, the riser in the back. Just, just not doing it for me.

• 39:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was weird too for me because I never paid attention to it before, right?

• 39:59Pete Roberts?

  But you noticed it?

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  I never, oh yeah, no, as soon as, as soon as I got it, I was looking at other jeans that I had and saying, okay, here's what's different. I remember I'd be on like sending you pictures or here's, I didn't even know what a yoke was, but I realized it's like the part below the waistband where it gives you a little separation between the legs of the pants. And I didn't, I never paid attention to it before in my life, but I looked at it, I was like, hey, this seems like it's a lot longer than mine right now. Is there a benefit to that? And you're like, well, here's the benefit. And I said, well, here's the negative. The negative is I've got a pack, I've got a, a, a pocket on my hamstring right now instead of on my ass cheek, which is where it needs to be.

• 40:38Pete Roberts?

  Form, a form and function problem.

• 40:39Jocko Willink?

  Right. So then it's like, okay, we can tighten that up. So the, the, the other thing that's weird about it that know that I definitely don't think about is when you make it and you say, okay, this is what we are going to produce and you pull the trigger on that. Like that's what you're gonna get. So it better be good. It's kind of like, I do relate in the fact that when you publish a book and you're gonna print a hundred thousand copies and then you open it up and you find a mistake. That's, that stings. And that's, that stings.

• 41:13Pete Roberts?

  And that's what happened. You know, the first, those right behind you, right there.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Pete Roberts?

  We went into production and they're coming off the line, right? We trained everybody and I, I thought we were good to go initially, but they started coming off the line and we weren't used to working with, you know, we were used to working with like compression textile because for all the rash guards and stuff we make, but not a woven. We're used to working with knits. We, we've never worked with a woven. So all of our machines were set up for rigid, right? Textiles that don't stretch. And like the first, like few hundred pairs that came off, we started to look at them more intently. And we found that. We made some mistakes.

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  And the mistake was somehow it was the, the fabric was starting to.

• 42:06Pete Roberts?

  Grow.

• 42:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, grow.

• 42:08Pete Roberts?

  It was growing because, and this is something machines will never be able to do.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Pete Roberts?

  All right. Machines aren't people. They can't, they can't make adjustments on the fly. You can only program a machine to do a task and it can do that one task well. But it can't recognize when there's something wrong and then make an adjustment. Right. It's going to do one thing, one speed, one way. That's a beautiful thing about humans, right? And, and manufacturing. To do it right, if they want to do it right. And that's a, that's a key thing right there. They've got to want to do it right. Cause they could just keep rolling even though there's a problem and just keep cranking. And this happens a lot. This happens.

• 42:48Jocko Willink?

  So when you say it was growing, what does that mean?

• 42:51Pete Roberts?

  The, the textile, the, the garment was growing because it was either being held too hard or the tension of the machine and what we found is a mixture of both.

• 43:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:02Pete Roberts?

  You know, because we're used to making these real, you know, the stuff for jujitsu. So you're holding it and, and, and as, as they were holding it, the, the textile was growing because there was a little bit of lycra in it.

• 43:13Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 43:13Pete Roberts?

  It was, the whole thing was growing. So the, the 32s were coming offline and they're like 36s. So we had to make some adjustments on the fly, had to change the patterns, recut a batch of denim. And we just, and you know, it was the right move. We just didn't release it. We're just like, no, that's a big tuition payment. That's just, it's just going to be a tuition payment, you know, and, and push forward. I mean, and.

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  Some of them had, that is that what caused like the twist in the seam down the leg too? My son, my son has a pair, like one of these original ones and he's, you know, I looked, I looked at him. I was like, yeah, look at the thing. He's like, I don't care. Cause he's.

• 43:52Pete Roberts?

  That's cool.

• 43:52Jocko Willink?

  You think I don't care about what I look like? My son is just like, don't care. Yeah. That, he's like, these are the best jeans. I'm just wearing them anyway. So the, the seam on the outside of his leg rolls towards his shin in the front.

• 44:03Pete Roberts?

  We, we.

• 44:03Jocko Willink?

  On one leg.

• 44:04Pete Roberts?

  We found an old.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't care.

• 44:06Pete Roberts?

  An old research paper from like the 40s.

• 44:11Pete Roberts?

  Leg twist in jeans was the title of it.

• 44:14Jocko Willink?

  No kidding. And so what, what was the cause of that?

• 44:17Pete Roberts?

  My old pattern maker, Lisa, she's sixty-three, sixty-four. She found the paper. She brought it into the factory. And it's, it's a whole research thing, like a college research, leg twist in jeans. What it is, is that as the textile is being woven, it's called a twill and there's, you know, diagonal lines. If you look at the jeans, diagonal lines. In order to cut jeans effectively, to not get leg twist, you have to cut them in pairs. And those pairs have to be reversed opposite. And we found that out after close to a thousand pairs. Yeah, leg twist in jeans. So you talk about manufacturing a product as simple as jeans.

• 45:02Pete Roberts?

  And I mean, what did it take us before we launched it? I mean, we did it fast, man. Like what, six months?

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. You were sending, you were sending me pairs pretty quick.

• 45:10Pete Roberts?

  Just launching, yeah. So we finally got it figured out and we got them launched and I don't, I, I, you know, they're freaking phenomenal. I don't know what else to say about the product itself, but man, those, those ladies worked. I'm saying ladies because our whole, that whole floor is all women. Between the ages of twenty and sixty. And it's awesome seeing millennials work that want to work.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Pete Roberts?

  We've got like, you know, ten of them on that floor, cranking, cranking. And, uh, yeah, working together and just like a beehive, man. Just like a freaking beehive walking in that place in the morning.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna, I don't know if you want me to say this or not, but I'm about to. We're gonna make another pair of jeans. That's gonna be lighter weight. Now, Echo Charles, just for your FYI. The Jaco me, I am requesting lightweight jeans.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 46:09Jocko Willink?

  Kind of weird.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Dichotomy.

• 46:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dichotomy. Don't, don't want the lightweight hoodie, want the lightweight jeans. Ken, do you want to know why?

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  How many times my legs have been cold? You know how many times I've been like, oh, I, I don't want to be outside anymore because my legs are cold. It's never happened.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, I used to wear shorts all the, you know, all year long. It's snowing outside. I wear shorts.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  So. Lightweight jeans, that'll be the next, next thing we're gonna make and, and we've got a little tie back to my heritage in the Navy, in the SEAL teams, because in the, in Vietnam, the issued fatigues weren't durable enough for the combat operations that the SEALs were doing. And so, many of the SEALs in Vietnam wore jeans. And so, we're gonna make some jeans, we've got a cool name for them that I will not reveal at this time.

• 47:09Pete Roberts?

  I thought you were gonna let it rip, I was like, I'm waiting for it.

• 47:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's too cool, it's too cool, but you know, like I said, and then we just, the last podcast, which you haven't heard yet, that, that we just did with a SEAL Master Chief named Kirby Harrell, who is just as completely legit as they come as frogmen. And yeah, he, you know, he was talking about wearing jeans in Nam. And so, yeah, so we've got that, we've got these lightweight jeans coming, I think that's gonna be, and I already have, I actually already have three pairs, sorry.

• 47:40Pete Roberts?

  Well, I, I have a pair, I've been, I've been testing the goods myself, so I spent thirty days in Europe last month. I put two hundred miles on the boots and I think it was twenty thousand miles on the jeans as we traveled. And man, those things are getting worn in, fading in, and just the abrasion of movement and motion in life. It's awesome, dude, it's freaking awesome, so. And you know, people are like, why are you so damn excited about jeans? Well, two hundred and ninety-eight million Americans own jeans because they're cool, but it's really what they represent, you know, and I, I learned something recently that, you know, after the Great, before the Great Depression, you know, I can go into an old antique store and you see the trunks

• 48:25Pete Roberts?

  and they got the stickers all over them or the postcards, you know, well, people were traveling to Europe before the Great Depression, they were going on vacation for, they'd go for like a month or two at a time, right? And then the Great Depression happened and every, everybody just kind of hunkered down. And they didn't feel confident enough to go on these voyages, right, ships, these voyages. So what they decided to do is go and explore the American West. And what I've heard is that the cowboys out there were wearing denim blue jeans.

• 49:00Pete Roberts?

  And and the idea, and I'm digging into this through research is that that's where fashion and jeans started in the US.

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  So the city slickers from the east went out west, saw the free range cowboys and said, yeah, and and took that free spirit attitude back to the east coast. And there you go.

• 49:27Pete Roberts?

  I still gotta prove it, but.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  That's your theory.

• 49:29Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 49:31Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Now.

• 49:35Jocko Willink?

  I remember this, I don't, do you remember, do you remember like the Berlin Wall? Do you remember East Berlin as well as I do?

• 49:41Pete Roberts?

  I.

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  From a, from a child, I know you know about it now.

• 49:43Pete Roberts?

  Yes, I I do, but I didn't get it. I I remember watching the wall come down. It was eighty nine. I was ten years old, eleven years old, maybe. And I absolutely remember it. I remember. Man, I remember honestly feeling unsure. Because I didn't understand why these men with these sledgehammers were slamming that wall with such anger and then elation. Did didn't register. And I remember the conversation in the house of my parents talking about freedom and communism. And I had no idea with these concepts. I didn't know anything about them.

• 50:27Pete Roberts?

  But then, when the wall came down and they were accepted into the, into their friends and family, watching them come across, I was just like, they've been separated. I just remember that, not knowing what communism wanted, was or separation or anything, I just remember that they were, they were, they were in prison, basically.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Pete Roberts?

  And, yeah, of course, I was there last month, so I, yeah.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  Cause what I remember, when I was a kid, you know, at at my school, like, kids would go on like a school trip to wherever, England or Spain or something like that, like the Spanish class, there'd be kids that would go on a school trip.

• 51:11Jocko Willink?

  And what people would say is like, you gotta bring jeans, bring jeans, you can sell them.

• 51:16Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 51:17Jocko Willink?

  You can sell them. And there was like a black market to get those things into the eastern block countries. You could sell a pair of American, you know, standard American jeans that costs sixteen dollars at the grocery store, at the department store, and you could bring them over there and sell them for a hundred dollars. I remember hearing that, a hundred dollars. And I had like two pairs of jeans or three pairs of jeans. And I'm thinking, hey, can you take these? Can you try and get a hundred dollars for these things? And that was, and that to me, has always said that those people over there identified blue jeans, like the, like you're saying, the east coast, to look at the cowboy and said, that's the spirit of freedom right there.

• 51:57Pete Roberts?

  And you know, the thing is, is, you know, when I get into something, I go deep. That's why we ended up building a factory in my backyard.

• 52:10Pete Roberts?

  But I needed, I need to understand more about why jeans represented revolution. Anyways, we were in East Berlin last month and working on this project, doing some research. And I sat down with a woman who lived in East Germany. Her dad was a spy.

• 52:33Pete Roberts?

  And, you know, they had, and I didn't realize this, they had access to the West in terms of the news and the media and everything. It wasn't like they were closed off from that. And I think that might be a misconception. They could see it, but they couldn't touch it, right? So it's almost like, like they're, they're, they're in a cage and they can see what's happening outside, but they can't, they can't touch it.

• 52:57Pete Roberts?

  And so we, we sat down and we had dinner in this old Russian restaurant. And it was, it was like this, this scene, like you'd see in a movie or something. You know, with the yellow lights and all the pictures on the wall. And we're sitting there intimate like this, having dinner. And she told me about growing up in the East.

• 53:20Pete Roberts?

  And as she got into the conversation, she reached in her bag and pulled out her diary from her childhood. And she's like, let me show you something. And she opened the diary and there was a tag in there, a wrangler tag. And she said, this was from my first pair of jeans. And this tag was beat up and worn in and her jeans deteriorated, but she saved that tag. And then she flipped the page and in her diary, she was, she had a little bit, this woman's name was Anya, Anna, and her friend had gone to New York City and she had written, you know, in a girl's diary, and she has jeans. And then she took the

• 54:03Pete Roberts?

  pen and she underlined it and then she took a highlighter and she highlighted it. And she's like, I didn't really understand how important it was to me until you and I started talking, because we had talked the day before. And she said, the first time in my life, I ever feel empowered as an individual was when I got my first pair of jeans when I was 13 and I put them on. The first time, I had only worn dresses, what they gave us to wear. And I put those jeans on for the first time and I felt free. And if you want to distill this thing down, why it's so important, look at that.

• 54:44Jocko Willink?

  You know what I just realized? So I have a, I have a 10 year old daughter and she's been wearing, your daughter might be too old for this trend, but a lot of girls right now that are younger, maybe six, seven, eight, nine, they wear basically a matching kind of whole polyester, like dry fit type outfit. Like that's the whole thing, right? And it all matches, it looks like a weird tie dye looking thing. And you know, my daughter must have had like three or four of them and she would just rotate them. Like that's just, just, just what, and her and all of her friends, they look like somebody spilled crayons everywhere or something. And that's what they all, that's kind of like, and I

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  think from a mom's perspective, you know, it's real easy, you know, just there you go, you know, you just wear this. And my other daughters, my other daughters took her shopping.

• 55:40Jocko Willink?

  And when she came home, she says, Dad, I'm gonna go put on some of the clothes I got. And she had it. She was, she came out and she was wearing a pair of jeans and it was her first pair of jeans, believe it or not.

• 55:51Pete Roberts?

  Wow.

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  Cause we live in California. There's no, we don't wear jeans out there. We wear shorts. Or if you're a eight-year-old girl, you wear these outfits, these matching little, what is it nylon? Is that what it is? What is it?

• 56:03Pete Roberts?

  I don't know.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Does P wear those things?

• 56:05Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 56:06Pete Roberts?

  It's like a, wait, is that a romper?

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, romper. Yeah, well, it's like that, but it's all, it's like a, it's just a outfit and every little girl wears.

• 56:14Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah, she has a lot of them.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  So my daughter comes out of her room and you know what? She's 10, you know, and she's tall for a 10-year-old. But all of a sudden she had jeans on and I could see now that you're, I'm connecting, you know, she looks so proud. And you know, kind of like she was standing up straight, like she was now in, you know, in the big leagues, kind of. And she, you know, you know that time you go through in your life where you're like, I'm a person?

• 56:39Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 56:40Jocko Willink?

  She looked like she had that kind of, I'm a person, I'm an individual, I'm a, I'm a person. I got, I'm, I'm here.

• 56:48Pete Roberts?

  Confidence.

• 56:48Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I'm here.

• 56:50Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm not mama's little girl anymore. I'm here.

• 56:53Pete Roberts?

  Here.

• 56:54Jocko Willink?

  And how much of that comes from my daughters going, you need to get jeans. You know what I mean? You need to get jeans.

• 57:01Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 57:02Jocko Willink?

  That's in my kids, that's in my kids psyche. That you, you know what? You get jeans and that's when you become an individual human, ready to take on the world.

• 57:14Pete Roberts?

  Dude, that's badass. That's so cool. And, and it's crazy because it, it really does, you know, it really does like it just.

• 57:24Pete Roberts?

  You know, when you wear something, like, and that's the, that's the important, I mean, it's, it's a beautiful thing, really. You know, to that you can be empowered by something on your body. You know, and, and then people say, well, that's, that's not, it's not important, you know, what you wear. Well, it's really not important what you wear, but it is important how you feel about yourself. You know, it is important how you project yourself. You know, I mean, if you, if you're working for Echelon Front going somewhere, you know, do you wear a t-shirt? If you're going on Fox News, what do you put on?

• 57:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I put on a suit.

• 57:55Pete Roberts?

  Why?

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's what you put on.

• 57:57Pete Roberts?

  That's right.

• 57:58Jocko Willink?

  Right. I think that's important. I think the next time I might be going on, I might be wearing some orange jeans, boy. This is what I, this is something else I just realized. Think about this. Okay. Do, do you have a, you get a pair of slacks, right? Get a pair of slacks. What's another word for that? Pants?

• 58:16Pete Roberts?

  Sure.

• 58:16Jocko Willink?

  Trousers. Trousers or whatever. You get a pair of pants. Those, if you just get a normal pair of pants, whatever. They, they'll change a little bit over time. But basically the change that they go through deteriorates them and they're no longer usable. But jeans are different. Jeans wear and they become comfortable and they come to your body. They like, they like.

• 58:40Pete Roberts?

  They wear in, not out.

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes, they wear in, not out. But they become yours. Like you can't, if one, if you have a nice pair of jeans that's broken in that you've had for a while. And something happens to them, you have to go get another pair and you have to go through a period of time where they're, they're not quite your jeans yet.

• 58:55Pete Roberts?

  And you know what's crazy is, is.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  Except for those thin ones.

• 58:59Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, those deal.

• 59:00Jocko Willink?

  As soon as you get put them on.

• 59:01Pete Roberts?

  Legit. That, that woman, Anya, I was, I was with, she, she told me, she's like, you know, they, they tried to make jeans. Because eventually you didn't have to smuggle them in anymore. Eventually. You, if you knew somebody out, outside, they could ship you the jeans if they could afford them, right? So they became so popular that. East Berlin government decided, East Germany government decided, we're gonna make jeans. And they did. They made jeans. And I picked up a pair of those jeans. I found someone who had a pair. And they weren't jeans.

• 59:44Pete Roberts?

  They didn't know how to weave the textile and they couldn't figure it out.

• 59:48Jocko Willink?

  So what were they? Were they just like some weird fabric?

• 59:50Pete Roberts?

  It looked like a, it was a weird fabric and it, and it wasn't even indigo dyed. So they would never, they wouldn't even fade in. They were just like.

• 59:58Jocko Willink?

  They were just like a blue material.

• 59:59Pete Roberts?

  Blue material. Yep. Yeah. It was, it was crazy. So it failed miserably. And she said, so the, the government imported a million pairs of American jeans. And they sold out like the like the day they arrived.

• 1:00:18Jocko Willink?

  That's the kind of thing where you realize that's why communism doesn't work.

• 1:00:21Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Cause the state can't figure it out.

• 1:00:23Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  But individuals can. So give them some jeans and let them run wild.

• 1:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, okay, jeans, we got that. We might have gone a little bit.

• 1:00:34Pete Roberts?

  I don't know, a little riff.

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  But hey, all right. Now, the other thing you said is you put miles on boots.

• 1:00:41Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is a little bit of a reversal role where I said to you like, hey, bro. Everyone wears jeans. You said to me, hey, man, we need to make boots. And that made me, that made me nervous because I look at boots. I, I said, hey, man, like these are, everyone's feet are different and it's hard to make and it's, you gotta, the sizes. I mean, they're, you can't hem a pair of boots, like boots are what size they are. And you, and, and people's complaining about blisters and, you know, in a seal platoon, everybody wants a different kind of boots. So I was definitely more hesitant on the, on the, just the product itself.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  And then on the manufacturing, to me, it just seemed like a crazy thing. And you, you were laughing. I don't know if you remember this. You were laughing. You were like, you were laughing. You're like, bro. It's so much easier to make boots than it is to make, to, to weave fabric on a loop.

• 1:01:40Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. And I think some of that laughter was more like, I'm ready for the challenge. You know what I mean? Like this is, and the thing is, is, you know, and just in full transparency, you know, you and I had a private conversation at the end of last year and like, okay, what are we gonna do? You know, what are we gonna do to grow? And we wanted to make the investment, you know, of our, our profit and put it back into the company. And, and.

• 1:02:04Pete Roberts?

  We're identifying where we want to grow, right? And what's going to have the biggest impact on the community? But also what the community can handle, right? And we know they can handle making denim blue jeans. And I knew the community could not only handle, but but if we could make footwear again.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  I just need to clarify this. When you're talking about the community, what you're talking about is the actual community within which you live, within which our factory is, within which we have a pool of people. That's the community that actually have this skillset. And that's the part that I didn't appreciate. And as soon as you were like, hey, because I'm thinking, how are we going to make shoes? And you said, we got the people. And then I remember growing up, of course, who is up here? All these massive shoe manufacturers were up here. And I said, oh, yeah, obviously. Okay, check, run.

• 1:02:57Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, shit, I mean, New Balance is still in Maine doing some stuff. Nike used to be in Maine. You had, you had Bashu, right? You had Dexter Shoe. You had Hayden Shoe, Alan Edmonds. I mean, you had all these brands. And one of our employees, Christine, she actually was the one who went to the Dominican when the free trade agreements went into play and trained them on, she was the best little waist stitcher in the country. She trained them how to use that machine. So she was part of, let's call it a brain drain, a skills drain, right? Where the skills needed to go away. What happens when they go away?

• 1:03:42Pete Roberts?

  She's the only one left with those skills, right? And I had identified a few people with those skills. And these old shoe dogs, one of them was Bart Hershey. You know, and this old guy Roland Landry.

• 1:03:54Jocko Willink?

  Shoe Dog is the name of that book. Is that a term anyways? Shoe Dogs?

• 1:03:58Pete Roberts?

  Shoe Dogs, yeah. There's a book written.

• 1:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's by the guy that made Nike.

• 1:04:01Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Pete Roberts?

  Shoe Dog.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  But that's a common term? He didn't coin that term?

• 1:04:05Pete Roberts?

  No, that's what these guys are. He was part of that.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:04:09Pete Roberts?

  All these guys. Helped him get started. This guy Roland is the one that helped Timberland start. He's the one that had the machinery and the knowledge to get Timberland so they could mold a sole onto a leather upper. He, he developed that. And so I had all these old timers who I had just, honestly, I didn't give them an opportunity not to, not to meet me. Like I'd, I'd just go to their factory, call them on the phone, you know, show them what we're doing and get in front of them, get in front of them, get in front of them. And then finally, we started building relationships and this, this one guy Roland, I went over there and, and he had to get rid of some machinery.

• 1:04:47Pete Roberts?

  And we did some kind of negotiating and I was like, well, what do you, what do you want? You know, I gotta figure out what somebody wants. You know, we ended up negotiating. He's like, can you do a lobster bake for my staff? And I said, yeah. He goes, take it all. Loaded up a tractor trailer of machinery, a small, like a 20 foot, you know? And a couple of weeks ago, Joe, my father-in-law and I, and a few other guys from the factory went out and cooked his whole staff a lobster bake.

• 1:05:22Pete Roberts?

  Lobster bake for old shoe machinery, but these shoe dogs. So shoe dog is the term that is just used. It's a general term for someone who's been in the industry for a long time. But, you know, as we were talking at the end of last year and, you know, I kind of put your, I guess, concerns at ease a little bit. For sure. You know, it's like, we can make shoes. Yeah. You know, we don't have to reinvent anything, even though we need to build it from scratch. There's a difference there. Yeah. You know, if you, if we're gonna like try to figure it out and not have the knowledge, that would be one thing. But the knowledge has only been, it's only been removed for 20 years, right? If it had been removed for 50 years.

• 1:06:08Pete Roberts?

  I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but I

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  It would have taken a lot larger effort and a lot bigger, a lot more costly tuition.

• 1:06:15Pete Roberts?

  Yes, the tuition.

• 1:06:17Jocko Willink?

  The tuition would have been high.

• 1:06:18Pete Roberts?

  And the, and the effort right now has been great and, and the, and the expense has been great. I mean, we're in month eight and this week we're finally ready to really launch like as you saw in the factory the other day. But you're talking about, okay, Jaco got Jaco's blessing, you know, the team's on board. What are we gonna do? I hired one person.

• 1:06:42Pete Roberts?

  One person, Henry. And he'd been in the industry for 40 years. And he started January 1st. I gave him a piece of paper with how I wanted the boot to look and I said, this is what we want to build.

• 1:06:58Pete Roberts?

  Now, just, just so, you know, everyone understands, I know you get it, that we're talking about starting something from scratch. All right, we don't have any machinery. We don't have asses in seats, which is my way of saying human resources. We don't have the workflow. We don't have the raw materials. We don't have the patterns. We don't have the dyes. Zero.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  Nothing.

• 1:07:22Pete Roberts?

  I gave him a piece of paper with an illustrator drawing and said, this is what we want to make.

• 1:07:30Pete Roberts?

  That's crazy. Not really. Not really crazy because if you can see when you, when you see people work together where each one has a skill set in, in, and I know this is like on the SEAL teams, like I'm sure when you did operations and everything was just moving. It's like a perfect, it's like a Russian ballet. It's like a perfect flow

• 1:07:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Pete Roberts?

  of organization, right?

• 1:07:58Pete Roberts?

  And I had seen it in the rest of the factory and how we did the rest of the factory. And that's why I knew we could do it, but I, but I also knew that the challenges of building something for a foot, you know, that, that a foot, everyone's feet are different and they're odd shaped, they're asymmetrical, you know, it's a strange thing, a foot.

• 1:08:17Pete Roberts?

  I knew we were gonna have challenges.

• 1:08:18Jocko Willink?

  Asymmetrical. Yeah, they're not the same.

• 1:08:21Pete Roberts?

  They're not the same. I knew we were gonna have challenges. And I know I haven't told you about all the tuition payments, but I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you about a couple that I may have skipped.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  What happened to all my money?

• 1:08:36Pete Roberts?

  So, we, we, we got into it and, you know, and we, we made some boots, you know, to start off, but it was all, you know, Henry with an X-acto knife, like hand cutting everything, whatever. And we started building the patterns, they weren't perfect. So, you gotta imagine like eight months, we're now into this thing, eight months.

• 1:08:57Pete Roberts?

  Once, once we actually got a boot, of course, he started with a 14, wrong.

• 1:09:04Pete Roberts?

  And that would bite us in the ass six months down the road. That was, that was the tuition payment. I wanted him to start with a 14 because I wanted to wear it first. Not knowing that six months down the road, that would be a mistake, cause you never grade, grading is how you scale everything. You never grade from your largest size. You always grade from the middle.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  From the middle.

• 1:09:28Pete Roberts?

  Middle size, yeah. So I should have, I should have made your size first.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  You should have asked me too, cause if you would have asked me that question, I would have said, oh yeah, cause you probably lose a little bit of, you, you lose a little bit of that shape and the, and the, the, uh, what's the word? The ratios. The ratios, yeah, the ratios as you go up.

• 1:09:45Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. That's what grading is.

• 1:09:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:09:47Pete Roberts?

  So.

• 1:09:49Pete Roberts?

  We needed all those things, patterns to fit the foot, leather. We needed the knowledge, of course. Clicker dies to cut the material, but most importantly, we need shoe making machinery. So. Which these are very specialized machines. Oh, yeah. Incredibly specialized machines. Very specialized and it wasn't feasible to just buy new stuff. You know, I mean, would it have been smartest to buy all new machinery? Yes. Hmm. Yes, it would have been. Interesting. It would have been smartest if we wanted to take that risk and dump that amount of capital into it. I was gonna say, cause it doesn't seem like that would be real smart.

• 1:10:32Pete Roberts?

  Exactly, but you know what I knew? I knew that Henry used to be a millwright and that if we could just get decent machinery, even old machinery that was running, he could keep it running. And our little proof of concept called bringing back shoe manufacturing in Franklin County, Maine. If we could prove that concept, it would be only a matter of time to be able to invest in in that new machinery. So that's what we did. We talked about it, how much it's gonna be, but all right, let's do it. So I ended up calling this old timer, Mo. He's the one that found our first loom. So I went back to the source. Mo, this is what I wanna do.

• 1:11:14Pete Roberts?

  And he's wild, you know, this guy, he, he told me a story. Uh, you, you ever heard of Dexter Shoe, of course? Um, there was a, a man named Harold Alphon. No. Harold Alphon built Dexter Shoe. He built it, he was working at another shoe company. He built it by loading up machines that weren't being used. Like in the, in, during the nighttime into his station wagon and driving them to a mill in Dexter. He basically took the machines that were like the, the abandoned machines from this other factory. And he started a factory and he built an empire. All right, Harold Alphon. He got bought out by Berkshire Hathaway.

• 1:11:58Pete Roberts?

  They had a contract that when Harold Alphon died, they could move Dexter Shoe out of Maine.

• 1:12:04Pete Roberts?

  Harold Alphon died a few years back. They shut the factory down and moved it out of Maine.

• 1:12:11Pete Roberts?

  This shit, just, man, it gets to me. It gets to me.

• 1:12:18Pete Roberts?

  Mo told me a story about Harold Alfond. Cause Mo's dad was an old shoe dog and he made the parts for the machine. And he said, Pete, let me tell you something. You're gonna need my help doing this. This is what I do.

• 1:12:37Pete Roberts?

  This guy Harold Alfond.

• 1:12:40Pete Roberts?

  He started this factory and he couldn't, he wasn't getting it. He wasn't making any money. And he called my dad and he said, can you come up to the factory? And this is back when it doesn't matter if this small timer trying to build this shoe company. Hasn't even started selling product yet. It's in the hole, maybe has a handful of employees. This guy's Mo's dad drives up to Dexter two hours. Sits in front of Harold Alfond and Harold Alfond says,

• 1:13:10Pete Roberts?

  can you buy these box of parts back from me? I'll buy them back from you in three months.

• 1:13:20Pete Roberts?

  And his dad said, yeah, I'll take them back. Took the parts back, gave him the money. Three months later Harold Alfond bought them back. This guy's worth, I don't know, a billion dollars now. But this, this thing of sitting in front of somebody and having a conversation and building relationships. What I found in this shoe making thing is the most important thing. Because these are still the guys running it. The same guys running it. And the dudes, these shoe dogs that have been in the factory helping us. Combined age?

• 1:13:57Pete Roberts?

  Eighty-eight, ninety?

• 1:14:00Pete Roberts?

  And we've probably had a dozen in there. And you should see their freaking eyeballs when they walk in. They don't want to leave. Honestly, on occasion, bringing tears to their eyes. That this is what we're doing.

• 1:14:16Pete Roberts?

  Because they saw it, they were part of it and they saw it leave. And just that spark, man, like, you know, honestly, it just hits me right in the feels, man. That spark they see, it's motivation. And I absolutely knew that with their support, it was going to be possible.

• 1:14:36Pete Roberts?

  And so we've been grinding this.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  The first pair of boots that that I got that you sent me, the first pair of boots you sent me was better than the first pair of jeans you sent me. That that was a shocker to me. Like it was like, take them out of the box. I was like, no way. This is ridiculous. And and you know, you're like, hey, there's there. These aren't perfect. I'm sending them just so you can look at them. And I was like, no, I'm wearing them. I mean, I was wearing them. Out of the box, comfortable, crazy.

• 1:15:04Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  That was crazy. I was like, bro, what's wrong with your jeans, dude?

• 1:15:08Pete Roberts?

  You gotta like, we had to figure out how to make jeans, you know what I mean? Whereas we had the knowledge base to make the footwear. Like it was still here, you know, and man, I mean, these guys came in and they just like dumped their knowledge on, but Henry, Henry being the key and this guy Mo. And so I'm like, I need machinery. So he found all the old machinery overseas. He brought it back over.

• 1:15:31Jocko Willink?

  Literally bringing machinery that's been shipped overseas.

• 1:15:36Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  Along with the jobs, literally, we're bringing it back to America.

• 1:15:41Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 1:15:42Jocko Willink?

  Actually happening.

• 1:15:43Pete Roberts?

  Actually happening. Machines designed in New Hampshire, machines designed in Massachusetts, manufactured right there, bringing them back, these old machines and Mo refurbished them. And now they're in the factory. And it's badass. So what's the, where are we at right now? I know we have the the leather for 400, 500 pairs? Yeah, you know, we we connected with the tannery. Uh, that's 45 minutes away. That's another thing about supply chain, right? There's one tannery left in Maine and they just happen to manufacture all the leather for the military boots.

• 1:16:27Pete Roberts?

  So we went up to them and they're like, we'll, we'll help you guys however we can. So they're tanning leather for us. They're tanning seven styles of leather and it took a while to get it right. I mean, it's, you gotta remember like, leather like textiles, depending on how it's tanned, it can be, you know, can stretch more, be more rigid and not form right. It can wrinkle. You know, there's, there's all sorts of shit that can happen that, that's really bad. So anyways, we had to get through all of that. And we had to get through that and make sure the patterns were right. And then we ordered the dies and we started cutting and it was wrong because we had graded them from the 14s.

• 1:17:12Pete Roberts?

  So we may have lost 10 or 15 grand on dies.

• 1:17:17Pete Roberts?

  I know, but, uh, but we, we reordered the dies and now we've got them working.

• 1:17:25Pete Roberts?

  But, um, but yeah, so we have probably 500 pairs cut, ready, ready to go. And we lean manufactured out the line and we're in the process of training the young folks now. We have a young girl Nikki, she's 19, another guy. Uh, who's in there, Christine and Henry, those two with combined experience like 80 years, you know, the little ways Stitcher was telling you about and Henry. And we're like, we're literally, once you and I have a conversation like, hey, should we turn it on? We'll just turn it on. We'll turn it on. And, uh, we need to turn it on in the factory right now before we move it, you know, to the new plant. Cause it's got, it's gotta work there first. We gotta have the proof of concept worked out, but

• 1:18:07Pete Roberts?

  man, I put, I put a ton of miles on those boots and man, they're wearing in nicely.

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Pete Roberts?

  Nicely.

• 1:18:13Jocko Willink?

  No, it's, it's a classic. So what boots, it's like boots. That's what they are. They're boots.

• 1:18:20Pete Roberts?

  Boots, man.

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  And you know what they go well with? Jeans.

• 1:18:23Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. I love the fact that we like, we, we were calling the jeans legit fit.

• 1:18:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, while we're doing all this, meanwhile, I'm out starting Jocko Publishing. You know, I have a, I'm like, hey, man, by the way, I've got, you know, whatever. I'm going to be, I got a hundred thousand books that, you know, I'm going to need to get moved from place to place. We have a fulfillment center and like you're like, yes, we do. And boom, all of a sudden, next thing you know, we got a fulfillment center. We got the Warrior Kid three, we got Mikey and the Dragons there. You're, we just absorb that. It was like, it was one of those things that gave me the freedom to tell my publisher, watch this, I'm publishing, you know, I got a publishing company now, watch this. And to have the freedom to be able to do that was phenomenal.

• 1:19:11Jocko Willink?

  Because I knew, I was like, okay, well, we, I can make this happen because they're looking at it going, how the hell, where, where are you going to, where are you going to store a hundred thousand books? How are you going to palletize books? Who's going to, Jaco, are you going to be in a warehouse somewhere palletizing books? You know, while you're trying to write another book and do all the other stuff that you're doing? That's not going to work. So they're, in the back of their mind, they're thinking, I'm an idiot. Yeah, they're thinking it's impossible. Which is, which is a common theme around here. People think things are impossible. And, you know, I, there's another thing I was saying the other day. And you were, you kind of reminded me of this, of when you started down the path of, hey, I'm going to make these here. And all of a sudden they're telling you, people were telling you, it's impossible to do this. It's impossible to do this.

• 1:19:56Jocko Willink?

  And the reason that that, that, that, that propaganda is out there is because the big corporations, the best answer that they can give to the American people, and they say, hey, why are you shutting down this factory? The best answer that they can give is, oh, it's impossible to manufacture here. That's what it is. It's impossible to manufacture here. That's their answer. That way they can save an extra 32 cents per item. By having it manufactured in China where they, where they, they still have to pay shipping. They still have to pay customs. They have to pay to get it over. There's all kinds of, but it's, so it's not like they're saying, it's not like, oh, those laborers only get a dollar a day.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  So therefore we're saving 80 or whatever, $12 an item. No, they're actually, with all the other costs, they're saving 32 cents an item by paying somebody over there a dollar a day. And by taking a job from an American and sending it overseas. So the best answer that they can, can give isn't, well, we want to make an extra 32 cents an item. The best answer that they can give is, this is impossible to do here. Can't manufacture in America. Can't manufacture in America anymore. That's what, that's what we are being told. We're being lied to.

• 1:21:10Pete Roberts?

  America is being lied to. And I honestly feel because of the podcast, I feel like you've made what we're doing in Maine, the tip of the spear. I mean, and Maine is shaped like the tip of a spear, which is even more badass. And it is old school New England. It is. Which is even more badass. But it's not impossible. And like, if you look at like, we're here at the immersion camp. I was sitting down with a woman, she's in California. We're sitting on the side of the mat, she's from California and she's, she's a cop and she's just talking to me about her struggles, about media and how they're making her out to be and her, you know, and folks in law enforcement and everything. And, and she said, you know, she's like, what happened?

• 1:21:54Pete Roberts?

  And I said, and it just clicked. I'm sitting here looking at this mat full of a hundred, 200 people from all different creeds, skin colors, backgrounds, jobs from farmers to huge businessmen, scientists to surgeons, all on the mats for a common goal, to train and learn jujitsu. Isn't that what America is? Together for a common goal? Isn't that how this country was built? Isn't that how New England was established? When the immigrants came in together for a common goal?

• 1:22:39Pete Roberts?

  And it's literally happening right in front of me and I just, I just connected into it. And I was just like, what, what's missing? Well, I can see here that this is all about minds and hands. Right? Jujitsu, you know, learning jujitsu, it's not hard. It's hard on your mind, it's hard on your body, it's hard on your hands. You know, and, and manufacturing is, is the same thing. It's, it's, it's the same thing and, and just.

• 1:23:09Pete Roberts?

  Understanding like, and I know you, you know, you're from Maine and Connecticut and New England and we both are and understanding where we came from and what was sacrificed. So that we could get here. I feel like we've abandoned that. You know, and I feel like jujitsu is like a spark. You know, looking at those matches, like the spark, like whoa, wait a second. I bet there's every type of political affiliation on the mats right now.

• 1:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, for sure. I've talked to all of them.

• 1:23:38Pete Roberts?

  Unbelievable that these people are here smiling and just in just sheer enjoyment.

• 1:23:48Pete Roberts?

  Maybe jujitsu can solve the world's problems. I don't know, but, but I do feel like we've abandoned so much.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Well, also when you take a kid. And your kid says, hey, I want to do this and you tell them you can't do that.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  What does that do the kid? What does that do the kids' kids? Well, that's where we're at right now. You can't do this. You can't do this in America. And another thing is when it's like, I want to build something. You can't do it. Think about that. You can't do it. And that is an attitude that used to not even remotely exist in America. We were busy putting men on the moon and building the best cars and the best ships and the best planes in the world and winning wars. And getting after it. And all of a sudden we're looking around going, oh, you can't, you can't, what's the fundamental for all that stuff? Build, build, build something.

• 1:24:49Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden you're being told you can't build something. The, oh, you have to manufacture overseas. They manufacture better. No, no, this is our blood. We build things. And when you take that away from someone, what do they got? It's wrong. It's just wrong.

• 1:25:10Pete Roberts?

  So I actually, I actually like a little bit of the propaganda. It just helps what we're doing. We can just sneak up behind these folks and choke them out.

• 1:25:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, and it doesn't stop there. We're, we're, we're in a war on all fronts. You know, we got on top of all this, we got Origin Labs.

• 1:25:31Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  And we've put out tons of, of new product at Origin Labs. From, but you know, whatever, me and Echo talk about that all the time.

• 1:25:41Pete Roberts?

  The new products.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  The new products. But from a business perspective, I, I think, um, one of the biggest challenges has been the go. Ready to drink in a can.

• 1:25:53Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Again, it was one of these things where, hey, we want to make a drink. That gives you energy, but is not freaking horrible for you.

• 1:26:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Which, which, which may seem like, oh, that's impossible. That's impossible because you need it to taste good. So it's got to have sugar. You've got to have it not be refrigerated. So it's got to be, have a bunch of chemicals in it to keep it from going spoiled. And then you've got to put eight billion grams of, of caffeine in it. So it at least convinces a person that's drinking 10 billion grams of caffeine a day. That this is actually hitting them. So it's all these, hey, that won't work. No, no, no. That was the first thing. How do we actually make something that I could look at a person and be like, you should drink this. It is good for you to drink this.

• 1:26:47Jocko Willink?

  It will help you in your life, in your brain, in your athletic pursuits right now. That's a big step.

• 1:26:54Pete Roberts?

  It is, you know, and what's funny is like, I remember the last conversation before we actually pulled the trigger on making a decision. And you were like, I'm not compromising. We're changing the category. Like this is poison. You know, the, this category, the energy drink category.

• 1:27:13Jocko Willink?

  The energy drink category.

• 1:27:14Pete Roberts?

  It's just straight poison and we're not conforming to the standard. And you, you made like, it, it's going to be as far as the caffeine thing. When you kind of set that bar, like I was, I was on board, you know? And, and I, I, you know, the thing is, is like, I'm, I'm not a big caffeine drinker, but. And I know you're not a big caffeine drinker, but literally like I would never ever allow my kids to get an energy drink. Are you kidding me?

• 1:27:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Pete Roberts?

  Ever.

• 1:27:44Jocko Willink?

  I think if I gave my kid an energy drink, there would be mayhem in the world.

• 1:27:49Pete Roberts?

  Oh, mayhem. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, just, just being able to make that decision. We're not going to conform and we're not going to compromise. You know, I mean, that, that started the challenge.

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:27:58Pete Roberts?

  You know, but.

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  And the other big one was, was how do we make these things stay fresh without the normal chemicals that they add to all these drinks? That keep them fro- to keep them from being spoiled.

• 1:28:15Pete Roberts?

  Well, that's like, well, let's do what they do with mu- with milk.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Pasteurizing. Pasteurization. And so how many other drinks are there that you go into a store? Or you order or you pop open a can? And it's pasteurized? What's the number of drinks like that?

• 1:28:29Pete Roberts?

  I think none.

• 1:28:30Jocko Willink?

  The number is zero.

• 1:28:31Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:32Jocko Willink?

  The number is zero. Again, what's the, what's the business decision? The business decision, well, it's going to cost a lot more.

• 1:28:39Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Jocko Willink?

  It's going to cost a lot more to pasteurize these things. It's going to cost a lot more to use monk fruit. Instead of whatever the freaking cancer carcinogens that they just pump into those things. No. We're going to use the best ingredients. So all those little decisions along the way. Hey, we could be wrong. Actually, we could be wrong.

• 1:29:01Pete Roberts?

  It's worth the tuition payment.

• 1:29:02Jocko Willink?

  I was going to say, if we're wrong, at least I'll be able to sleep at night.

• 1:29:05Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. And I think that's what, when you distill it down, that's what it, that's what you get, right? Is, hey, you know, you can cut corners and the way you started this, you can cut corners here, there, the other place, but what is the right thing to do? You know, like with the jeans, what's the right thing to do? Well, build the product that's going to last a lifetime. That's actually the right thing to do. That'll never fall apart. Right? And it's the same thing with, with all the nutritional stuff. Because there's so much junk and you know, my son's 16. I will only let him take malt for protein. Or, or warrior kid, either one of those. I'll let him take, I won't let him touch any of that other shit. He's going to be 17. My daughter's turning 14. You know, it's like, there's things they're exposed to and there's propaganda in this industry pushing this poison at kids.

• 1:29:53Pete Roberts?

  And honestly, like they're at the point where they're mobile, you know? I know your son's mobile too, where they're making decisions, stopping at the store, grabbing things to drink, grabbing snacks. And I actually, I'm on them all the time. What'd you eat today? What'd you pick up at the store? What'd you drink today? You know, I'm on them about it because they know how important it is to me that they make good choices with the occasional, you know, double cheeseburger at McDonald's,

• 1:30:25Pete Roberts?

  which I may partake in once in a while. But uh, yeah, there is a, you don't usually find that in, in the categories and in this industry, in the nutritional industry. You usually find people looking at those things and

• 1:30:43Pete Roberts?

  I think that ultimately, ultimately, honestly, without your podcast, I think it would be almost impossible. I think it would be almost impossible without,

• 1:30:56Pete Roberts?

  without you explaining to people what's going on here.

• 1:31:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, then you might as well say it's not really the podcast, it's the people that are listening to the podcast.

• 1:31:05Pete Roberts?

  Sure.

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  It's not me. It's the people that are listening to podcasts that go, okay, yep, we're on board. That's what it is.

• 1:31:12Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  And so, thanks to everyone that listens to this podcast. Cause otherwise, we wouldn't be doing much of what we're doing right now.

• 1:31:22Pete Roberts?

  No, absolutely. I mean, but you've got all these like, you know, these Netflix specials and stuff, you know, on like what makes you fat or like the truth about sugar, you know, or all these things, there's all these news. So there's, there is kind of a awakening, I guess I would call it, an awakening about what you're putting in your body. It's happening. It's happening. And I think you're a part of that awakening. I think you're a big part of that awakening, letting people know, hey, You gotta watch what you're putting in your body, but I'm gonna make something that I wanna put in my body. You know, and I think that's a, you know, that value proposition, it's undeniable. You know, it's undeniable and we're not gonna compromise on that. That's undeniable.

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Pete Roberts?

  And if it doesn't work out, at least we did the right thing. That's undeniable.

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:09Pete Roberts?

  It's like chasing the truck back to the cotton field. That's where you're gonna end up. So you can't argue with it.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Pete Roberts?

  And I think it's, I think it's the right decision.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  My wife, the other day, I came home and she says, do you have a Vitamix blender? Or like a high-speed blender?

• 1:32:25Pete Roberts?

  We have the Blendtec, is it Blendtec?

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  One of those like big, high-speed blenders.

• 1:32:31Pete Roberts?

  Oh, like the Ninja?

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, but it's a big, like, it's almost like an industrial blender. So, so I have one of those. And the other day, but I normally don't use it, cuz I just use a shaker cup, right? When I'm making some milk of whatever flavor. So, and everyone in my family just uses a shaker cup. Occasionally, someone decides to kick in the, the Vitamix. So I come home the other day and my wife goes, you know, she's like, oh, hi, hi. And then she says, I had strawberry milk in the Vitamix.

• 1:33:02Jocko Willink?

  And I said, and? And she said, she said this, it's the best thing I've ever tasted in my life. That's what my wife said. Seriously, seriously. And, you know, she just, she said, it was so frothy. It was so frothy. So frothy. And I said, what did you have in it? She goes, just milk and milk, strawberry milk. And when I saw it, cuz my wife, you know, she's a, she's a world, a worldly person, I guess. You know, she, she likes, she got a fine palate and she likes diff, all different kinds of food. Like, I'm not that, right? For me to be like, this tastes good. That has limited merit, right?

• 1:33:42Pete Roberts?

  Can I, can I share, can I share the wooden sword thing?

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  The wooden sword?

• 1:33:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Jocko Willink?

  What wooden sword?

• 1:33:48Pete Roberts?

  So I can, I can help assist painting the picture of Helen.

• 1:33:52Jocko Willink?

  Uh, go ahead.

• 1:33:53Pete Roberts?

  When, when you're like, hey, we need to build a wooden sword. We're on the phone the other day.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:57Pete Roberts?

  We need to build a, you're like, we need to build a wooden sword, do like a, a special for.

• 1:34:01Jocko Willink?

  For Mikey the Dragon's little wooden sword.

• 1:34:03Pete Roberts?

  And I, and.

• 1:34:04Jocko Willink?

  Wooden sword and wooden shield.

• 1:34:05Pete Roberts?

  In the back and her accent, Chaco, that's the bar, bar record.

• 1:34:10Pete Roberts?

  Dude, I died laughing.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  She said I was barbaric. Cause I wanted little kids to have shields and swords.

• 1:34:16Pete Roberts?

  A little wooden.

• 1:34:17Jocko Willink?

  Which is an awesome idea. Which is like the only thing I played with until I figured out that there was a machine gun. Then I had a machine gun, a wooden machine gun, right?

• 1:34:24Pete Roberts?

  Which I think is a great idea for, we should do that for like this Christmas or something like build wooden swords.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  With the Mikey and the dragon shield.

• 1:34:31Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  With a little dragon on it.

• 1:34:32Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it'd be badass dude. If I was a kid and I got that.

• 1:34:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:34:36Pete Roberts?

  I'd be chopping at everything.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Yes. I don't know that, because I mean, we had wooden swords as kids.

• 1:34:43Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:43Jocko Willink?

  But.

• 1:34:44Pete Roberts?

  And then they turned them into foam.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's the thing is now they make them foam.

• 1:34:48Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:48Jocko Willink?

  Because then you can't hurt anybody, which I get, but maybe you need to, maybe you need to parent your kids and say, hey Billy, don't hit Jennifer in the head with a wooden sword. Like, don't do that. It's called parenting. Let's try it. Or you just put a helmet on them and put foam everything and put them in a padded room and now we don't have to worry about little savages anymore.

• 1:35:11Pete Roberts?

  Oh man.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  So, all that stuff together, I mean, it's, it's growth right now. When you look at the growth right now, I mean, do you see any hesitation in the growth?

• 1:35:27Pete Roberts?

  Zero.

• 1:35:29Jocko Willink?

  Do you see acceleration in the growth?

• 1:35:30Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Are you, are you nervous?

• 1:35:35Pete Roberts?

  I think, I, I, I don't know if nervous is the right word. You know, I mean, number one, I love the process.

• 1:35:42Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:43Pete Roberts?

  And I hope the process never stops. I don't, I, I, I mean, to think of something ending like what we're doing, I just, I, I, you know, I say, well, you, you really have four decades of opportunity. And I've, I've told you this before, you know, one of my advisors, John, who I have to introduce you to, uh, next time we're at Farmington. Said, hey, hey, you've got four decades of opportunity. You know, your first 20 years, you're learning. You've got 40 years to do, and then hopefully you enjoy the fruits of your labor. You know, and, and I'm in, I'm in the second decade, right? Twenty to thirty, thirty to forty, turn forty in February, second decade, like, the process, man, the process is what gets me excited, being in the game.

• 1:36:26Pete Roberts?

  You know, not standing on the sidelines, not being a former player, watching, you know, the new blood play. You know, I love being in the game. You know, and, and I think that to be in the game, you're gonna be a little bit nervous, you're gonna have butterflies. Because that's what being part of the team is, that's what being in the game means. And if you, and if you don't have that, then you're arrogant and, or maybe you're complacent. Right, but if you're in the game, you've got to feel that thing that's driving you to get up every morning. You know, and, and I love it, I love it, you know, that's truly my passion is being in the game.

• 1:37:11Pete Roberts?

  Not what the, not, not winning the game, not winning the championship, not looking to, to an end goal, like if we achieve this, we've won. You know, it's, it's just.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  It's just if we achieve this, what can we do next?

• 1:37:25Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Where can we go from there?

• 1:37:27Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:37:28Jocko Willink?

  I, I look at, one thing that I like doing, and I like being a part of. And one thing that I like about working with you is it doesn't seem like I can say, hey, I think we need to do this. And I know that it, it's gonna be really, really hard, but we can do it. And you're like, oh, yes, we can, you know, as opposed to the nine reasons, or the twelve reasons, or the forty seven reasons why, well, you know, there's this problem, and there's that problem, and there's this problem, and there's that problem. It, I'd never, I'd never hear that from you. I know you don't hear it from me.

• 1:38:07Pete Roberts?

  No, hell no.

• 1:38:08Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, hey, this is where we're at. This seems like it would be crazy to do. Let's do it, yes, here's how we can make it happen.

• 1:38:19Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, and, and to touch on that, and the fact that there has been this propaganda delivered to our minds over the past twenty, thirty years, whatever it's been.

• 1:38:32Pete Roberts?

  I was talking to a woman recently and she's the one that saved that first loom. When, when the Chinese came in and they purchased up this mill in Lewiston, Maine, they pulled everything out. She saved this loom. I had her on my podcast, actually. Her name's Rachel. And the biggest thing that, that built the infrastructure for the New England mills were the canal systems. And if you pulled the stones out of like the canal system in Lewiston, you could build another great pyramid. If you pulled the granite out of these canal systems, you could build another great pyramid.

• 1:39:14Pete Roberts?

  Think about what they did a hundred years ago in Lewiston, Maine. They built a great pyramid in the form of a canal system. And they did it without technology. They couldn't look up leg twist in jeans and solve the problem. Right. We can. So to say it can't be done, I'd never say that. We've got technology. We've still got people that know. We've got jets that can get us, you know, you can jump in on a JetBlue flight and get to Europe in eight hours or 12 hours. If you need to go see how something works, or if I need to go to California, if I need to just drive to Lowell, Massachusetts. I mean, you, you have the opportunity to travel quickly. You're not getting on a, on a boat on the ocean.

• 1:39:55Pete Roberts?

  And that's what they were doing. They were transporting this stuff with horse and buggy on rails across the ocean. And you're telling me it's impossible. Are you freaking kidding me?

• 1:40:08Pete Roberts?

  This is the easiest time we've ever had to do this. And that's why it's not crazy. Because of what we do have, we're fortunate to be in a day and age where we can get information like that. You know, it's just a matter of putting hands in dirt. That's what people are scared of. You know, they don't know how good calluses feel. If they did, man, it'd be a different, it'd be a different world right now. So again, fortunate and in being in New England, being in this part of of Maine, knowing that that feeling may have been abandoned or the people may have been abandoned.

• 1:40:51Pete Roberts?

  And showing him, no, you haven't been abandoned. Actually, this is cyclical and and we know that we're still the best. At this, let's just make it happen again. Let's get back in the game. Let's get back on the field. Let's make it happen again. Just being part of that. Let's get to work. Let's get to work. Awesome. Seems like a good place to wrap it up. Echo Charles.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:41:18Pete Roberts?

  How's it going over there?

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  Pretty cool.

• 1:41:20Pete Roberts?

  Speaking of getting to work.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:22Pete Roberts?

  We like to work in various, various modalities.

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Pete Roberts?

  I've never heard that word. Really?

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  Modalities.

• 1:41:29Pete Roberts?

  Modalities. Yeah. And I love expanding vocabulary. Explain it to me.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Different modes.

• 1:41:34Pete Roberts?

  Different modes.

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:35Pete Roberts?

  Modality.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  Different modalities.

• 1:41:37Pete Roberts?

  One modality might be we want to get smarter.

• 1:41:40Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:41:40Pete Roberts?

  Right? We want to train our brain. Right? We want to train our our aerobic capacity.

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:41:47Pete Roberts?

  We want to train our defensive capabilities.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:41:51Pete Roberts?

  We want to train our strength.

• 1:41:53Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:53Pete Roberts?

  We want to train our reflexes. I mean, we're just want to train in a bunch of different modalities. Do you know anything that really helps across a broad spectrum spectrum of modalities like that? Echo Charles?

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:06Pete Roberts?

  And what would that be?

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  Well, one is jujitsu right there in the immersion camp, immersing, immersing ourself, right? That's the word, right? Immersing.

• 1:42:14Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:14Pete Roberts?

  Immersing ourselves. You know, everybody's ripped off immersion camp now.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 1:42:19Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the the who's who of jujitsu were doing immersion camps.

• 1:42:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:42:24Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  Well, good.

• 1:42:25Pete Roberts?

  Flattering.

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  That's awesome.

• 1:42:27Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  Hopefully more people are training. Yeah, immersing themselves in jujitsu because yes, very useful as a modality of improvement for sure.

• 1:42:37Speaker 02

  Mental, physical. Anyway, we're here.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Vocabulary.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Vocabulary modality is vocabulary modality?

• 1:42:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm just saying we are apparently we're improving our vocabulary tonight across the board.

• 1:42:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  Using immersive modality.

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  Dig it.

• 1:42:48Pete Roberts?

  Immersive modality.

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Dig it. Yes. So, you know, you talk about the new Rift gi. I agree 100%. Every element that you brought up, 100%.

• 1:42:57Pete Roberts?

  So Echo, I'm going to interrupt you, even though this is your time.

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  No, no, no. It's our, our time.

• 1:43:03Pete Roberts?

  Did you know what we did for you? The last four days? Did you connect the dots?

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Uh, wait, no. If I, no.

• 1:43:15Pete Roberts?

  You know, you got a gi when you got here?

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:17Pete Roberts?

  You know who else got those gees?

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jaco. What do you mean?

• 1:43:24Pete Roberts?

  What color was it?

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  Black.

• 1:43:26Pete Roberts?

  Did you see anybody else get a black gi?

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  Jaco.

• 1:43:30Pete Roberts?

  Who else?

• 1:43:33Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:43:33Jocko Willink?

  All the other instructor, all the other black belts.

• 1:43:36Pete Roberts?

  If you had, if you had peripheral vision.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  Which I don't, by the way.

• 1:43:42Pete Roberts?

  You would have known what was about to happen.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Alright, okay. Alright.

• 1:43:46Pete Roberts?

  Isn't that cool, man?

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  That's layers right there, big time. In the industry, we call those.

• 1:43:50Jocko Willink?

  He was, he was concerned.

• 1:43:52Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:52Jocko Willink?

  He goes, if I give Echo this, do you think he's gonna know? And I was like, no, he'll just think that it's the camp gi or something.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  Only Echo got his black belt, by the way. For anyone that's listening that didn't hear this yet, we'll do a whole podcast about that.

• 1:44:06Pete Roberts?

  We, we made 15 black gees for the expert, the black belt experts, you being one of them.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  Damn, can't speak. Holy cow.

• 1:44:13Pete Roberts?

  Come on now, don't leave your head.

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  So cool. So cool, man. And it's funny because it's like you told, and you know, Jaco told me a few other things and all this stuff. And it's like, you know, like when you watch Fight Club, you know, you watch that movie?

• 1:44:23Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 1:44:23Pete Roberts?

  Oh, I've told you other things.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  You know, like you're like, oh, I didn't want to look at you. Oh, you know, like all these little things. And, you know, at the end of Fight Club, this is big, like, you know, what do you call it?

• 1:44:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  The twist, right? Then you watch it again, you're like, oh, I see all the little details.

• 1:44:36Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, you start connecting stuff.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  That's what I'm experiencing right now with you guys. Nonetheless, you talk about the Rift gi, black or otherwise. That is a reinvented scenario right there.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  Really good. And the thing is, I do prefer no gi over gi, but then even that other one, the other, the one that I got, because I got a rift and another one that looks, it looks different.

• 1:44:59Jocko Willink?

  It's a different cut, but it's also, it's the same material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was special. We, yeah, yeah. It's a special thing. The same material. Yeah, but it's the same, it's the material. It's the dragon, dragon weave gen three, which is, uh, I think that's the primary mover in that gi feeling so good. Yes. I get that the cut is also a factor. Yeah. But the bigger factor is that material, the textile is ridiculous. Well, because it like, I'd say it like dries as you sweat. Yeah, that's the crazy thing. You can put a gi in the, in the, you can, it's dry, it's basically dry when you get done with a spin cycle. Final spin. Yeah. Layers. When you get done with that, then it's almost dry right then. Yeah. You, you could put it on the mat. So that's for anyone that had a gi before,

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  like in five years, people will be like, oh yeah, it used to suck. You used to have to like dry these things for 80 minutes to get it dry. Now everyone's gonna be like, oh, that must've been horrible. It was kind of like, yeah, it was like, oh, when I was a kid, I used to have the, the phones were attached to the wall. Oh, and people are like, oh, that's really horrible. You know, it was like, oh, I used to get my gi in the dryer for an hour and a half to get it to dry. Oh, that must've been horrible. Are we contributing to the softening of society by making? No, because we can train more now. Efficiency. There we go, more training. Saving power. It's, it's green. Right? It's green. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To get a rift gi.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's in the.

• 1:46:22Jocko Willink?

  So yeah.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  Green direction. Unless it makes me want, wanna do more gi. Just that little push. And I think that's something.

• 1:46:29Jocko Willink?

  This is what, this is what happens. When you have someone that is very focused on comfort, a little extra comfort goes a long way.

• 1:46:38Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, it does. So if anyone's wondering, which they aren't, I would assume they are not wondering what gi to get. You get an origin gi.

• 1:46:45Jocko Willink?

  Because it's not just the rift, it's a whole spectrum. While you're here. Okay, I'm gonna give you some scenarios. I just started jujitsu. I'm not looking to compete. I'm gonna train three times a week. My budget is tight. What gi should I get?

• 1:46:59Pete Roberts?

  I would go with a comp Athleta.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:47:03Pete Roberts?

  Which is still gonna give you the performance, or we have that Warrior line, which is a lightweight gi, but it's it's more built for warmer environments. You know, the comp Athleta really is the right gi to go.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:47:14Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm I'm training six times a week. I'm gonna compete. I have a tight budget.

• 1:47:25Pete Roberts?

  Six times a week, you're gonna compete, tight budget. I'd still go with a comp Athleta.

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay. At what point do I step up and get a rift?

• 1:47:40Pete Roberts?

  At what point do you want to improve?

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm gonna tell you honestly, right now, if my budget was tight, I would wait an extra two months and get a rift.

• 1:47:51Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  That's what I would do.

• 1:47:52Pete Roberts?

  Well, it's it's a game changer product, you know, it's not.

• 1:47:57Pete Roberts?

  It's hard to explain, man. Like, like, when you're underneath somebody, you know, like, wearing an old gi, let's say, you're underneath somebody inside control, you've been sweating the whole match, you're 10 minutes in, and you need to, like, elbow escape or hip out, and your arm's stuck inside the sleeve because of the abrasion of the textile. What you're gonna feel is free. You know, so it gives you an advantage in that regard. If you want to feel free on the mats, even when you're getting crushed and smothered, get a rift. All right, it's an advantage. It's it's it's a way to cheat the system.

• 1:48:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:32Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 1:48:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's a whole comprehensive experience.

• 1:48:35Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, the reason you like no gi so much is you like the, right, the freedom of movement and everything, and and the rift almost provides that for you, you know, when you're training.

• 1:48:45Jocko Willink?

  He's got a major version of covering up his arms as well.

• 1:48:47Pete Roberts?

  Well, because they're massive.

• 1:48:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all right. Also, we got, well, we just talked about jeans, origin jeans, order those up. We got T-shirts.

• 1:48:59Jocko Willink?

  We got, uh, other clothes and we got supplements.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  Take it.

• 1:49:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all the different supplements.

• 1:49:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I had, I got the new, which we haven't talked about yet, Cold War.

• 1:49:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Is that for a reason or we just now we're talking about it now?

• 1:49:15Jocko Willink?

  Talk about it.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Boom. So I got some that Cold Cold War Krill Oil Joint Warfare.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  Good stack.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  These are like the, the, the prerequisite supplements. This is like to keep you in the game. Like it doesn't matter. You can have, you can have huge strength, all this stuff, but if you can't keep yourself in the game, like if you're on the sideline because the injury is whatever, you're, you're not moving correctly, you're sick, all this stuff. Right. It doesn't even matter. So anyway, I had that line, it dawned on me how these are the most important supplements that there are, in my opinion.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because without them, you could possibly not be in the game.

• 1:49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can be the strongest guy, but you're not even in the game, you know?

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  You can't roll.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:57Jocko Willink?

  Because whatever, your neck is sore. But I've been pounding the joint warfare and I'm almost ready to go.

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, you did, did Jaco ever tell you how the cold, the Cold War came to be? Cause he was getting off the airplane or something or you were traveling a lot.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, just when I travel.

• 1:50:14Jocko Willink?

  And I'm like, guys. There was, you almost got sick. I need like a hyper boost of, you know, the, all the stuff that prevents you from getting sick.

• 1:50:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:24Jocko Willink?

  And Brian's like, cool, let me, let me figure it out.

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  We ran it and then I tested it and I'm like, okay, I've been traveling, whatever it was, six weeks, no sickness. That's, that's like, and when I say sick, you know, you, you know, when you travel and there's just like your nose, like you just, you just like wake up, your mouth tastes like crap.

• 1:50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  And you feel like you're about to get sick.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Jocko Willink?

  That, like, I don't like that.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't like that either.

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  It's pulling you maybe not out of the game, but it's infringing on the game.

• 1:50:52Speaker 02

  It's kind of jamming you up. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:50:54Jocko Willink?

  Infringement. So there's all that stuff.

• 1:50:57Speaker 02

  Also.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  What?

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  Mulk.

• 1:50:59Jocko Willink?

  Mulk.

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  Look, to say you don't need milk, hmm, okay, maybe, maybe not, but you kinda need milk.

• 1:51:07Pete Roberts?

  So that is, that is the greatest name ever.

• 1:51:11Speaker 02

  Milk?

• 1:51:11Pete Roberts?

  Yes. I mean, it's, you know, there's, there's borderline, you know, like, just, you know, we were talking the other day about this borderline genius or like just the worst idea on the planet.

• 1:51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:27Pete Roberts?

  Milk is in the genius category. You know what I mean?

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  I do know what you mean.

• 1:51:32Pete Roberts?

  It's, it's genius, milk.

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, uh, it's fitting and it, it is inspired by milk itself.

• 1:51:41Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  Milk came first. And then milk came. You know what I mean? The, the, the drink came.

• 1:51:49Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Jocko Willink?

  And it was so good. I remember telling you guys, this is not a pro, this is not a protein shake.

• 1:51:53Pete Roberts?

  We can just call it like a protein.

• 1:51:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this isn't a, a meal replacement.

• 1:51:58Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:51:58Jocko Willink?

  This is its own thing. And, and it tastes to me like milk.

• 1:52:07Jocko Willink?

  I think the influences in there for me were the monk fruit.

• 1:52:11Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:11Jocko Willink?

  Right? Monk, monk, right? And then kinda like Hulk.

• 1:52:15Pete Roberts?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:15Jocko Willink?

  Right? Cause I knew we were going mint, green. And then of course Motorhead. Umla over the O, cause that's just legit.

• 1:52:23Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  And they asked Lemmy, why he put the umla over O in Motorhead? And he's like, cause it looked cool. Like that was his answer.

• 1:52:31Pete Roberts?

  That's why, that's why. Look, cool. There's the full story on it.

• 1:52:36Jocko Willink?

  That's the full story.

• 1:52:36Pete Roberts?

  Umla?

• 1:52:37Jocko Willink?

  Umla.

• 1:52:37Pete Roberts?

  I thought, so it's not an amulet? Is that a different amulet?

• 1:52:42Jocko Willink?

  Umla.

• 1:52:42Pete Roberts?

  Umla.

• 1:52:43Jocko Willink?

  An amulet, isn't that like something you wear around your neck?

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a little thing.

• 1:52:46Pete Roberts?

  I thought, I thought that those things were called, I thought they were called amulets. Maybe not.

• 1:52:51Jocko Willink?

  No, it's an umla.

• 1:52:52Pete Roberts?

  Umla.

• 1:52:53Jocko Willink?

  Umla.

• 1:52:53Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, that's funny. You're like, and when you do it. Put, put, put the umlaut above it. Put the two dots. I was like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to do that on the computer. You're like, hold down this key and press this. It was like boom, and Molk was born.

• 1:53:08Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know, umlauts can be a pretty important part of my texting sometimes. I'll be texting someone. I like my, my, uh, phone autocorrects like M O L K to M O umlaut L K, all caps. That's what it autocorrects. I wrote, write Molk. So that's awesome.

• 1:53:25Pete Roberts?

  Mine doesn't do that yet.

• 1:53:27Jocko Willink?

  You can change it. And mine also, the other thing I have when I write JJ, it turns into Jujitsu.

• 1:53:32Pete Roberts?

  Ah.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  So that way I don't have to type out Jujitsu with a hyphen in there every time. You know, you gotta change the keyboard. No, I just write JJ and it says Jujitsu.

• 1:53:39Pete Roberts?

  Gotta be honest, I didn't even know you could do that.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you can. So there's probably the two that you actually need, just Molk and Jujitsu.

• 1:53:46Pete Roberts?

  Because you type Molk so often.

• 1:53:48Jocko Willink?

  I type Molk so often and I type Jujitsu so often because even like responding on Twitter, it works. So I just said JJ and it says Jujitsu.

• 1:53:56Pete Roberts?

  So you must get a lot of questions like, what do you need to be successful in life? You're like, Molk and Jujitsu. Molk and Jujitsu, Molk and Jujitsu.

• 1:54:03Jocko Willink?

  Super easy.

• 1:54:03Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, kinda, kinda cool.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Also disciplined, by the way.

• 1:54:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:08Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:08Speaker 02

  Can't not say discipline.

• 1:54:10Jocko Willink?

  And I will say that, is it cheating that today I'm going on, how many hours of sleep?

• 1:54:15Pete Roberts?

  Mm, none.

• 1:54:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not a lot. And, and, and I was tired coming, when you, when I said today, I was all planning. I was like, okay, tonight I'm gonna go to bed early.

• 1:54:24Pete Roberts?

  Oh.

• 1:54:25Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna go to sleep and I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna feel great. And I said, so you wanna record tomorrow? And you're like, what about tonight? In my, in my mind, I said to myself, damn, that sucks. And then, but I wouldn't ever like reveal that. What am I gonna say? Well, I'm kinda tired. I'm too tired to record a podcast. No, not happening. So, but I, in case you couldn't tell, I was in here, I was kinda tired coming in and then I drank some.

• 1:54:51Speaker 02

  Of the D.

• 1:54:53Jocko Willink?

  As Echo Charles says it.

• 1:54:55Speaker 02

  Well, that, yeah, the discipline's coming a long way. You know, we have the powder, of course.

• 1:54:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  Right. And then what? Pills or powder? Pills.

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Drink. Yeah.

• 1:55:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, the discipline go and I, I wasn't gonna have a go tonight.

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Pete Roberts?

  And then I was like, I'm going on Chaco podcast. I need a little.

• 1:55:14Jocko Willink?

  A game, you need your A game.

• 1:55:16Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, A game, A game.

• 1:55:17Jocko Willink?

  Dave Burke, Dave Burke.

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  Good deal, Dave.

• 1:55:19Jocko Willink?

  We recorded.

• 1:55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:21Jocko Willink?

  As a matter of fact, we recorded the two podcasts back to back and then took a couple of days off and then recorded another two back to back. And before each podcast, he was taking two discipline go and he's just like, yeah, a hundred percent. He's like, I'm bringing my A game. Watch this.

• 1:55:36Pete Roberts?

  Did you want to know something that like feels real good? My son came in and he was meeting with your, with Dr. Luke.

• 1:55:43Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:44Pete Roberts?

  I wanted him to learn a little bit about, you know, medicine, cause he's interested in medicine. And he, he stayed for lunch at the immersion camp here and he went up and he saw the, the go cans all out in ice or whatever. And he's like, dad, can I have one of those? And I said, for sure. Have it.

• 1:56:02Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:56:03Pete Roberts?

  That's the first time that's ever happened.

• 1:56:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:05Pete Roberts?

  Cause he's asked me in the past, he's, I, he's come up to the counter with like a Red Bull or like a monster or something. I'm like, put that shit back.

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:56:15Pete Roberts?

  You know, and I was like, for sure, man, grab one, you know, it was, it was good. It felt good to be able to do that and feel confident about it.

• 1:56:23Jocko Willink?

  How do you like it?

• 1:56:24Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, he liked it.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:25Pete Roberts?

  Oh, for sure. Yeah.

• 1:56:26Jocko Willink?

  He's got energy anyways, cause he's what? How old is he?

• 1:56:29Pete Roberts?

  Sixteen.

• 1:56:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. He's on fire.

• 1:56:31Pete Roberts?

  You know, he was, he, he, him and his friend were like, because they had hands off, uh, two weeks ago. Before double sessions for football, they wanted to come out surfing so bad and I almost called you.

• 1:56:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:44Pete Roberts?

  I just didn't know how crazy it was. It was just like, I would have literally called you and be like, hey, I'm sending the kids out to California to go surfing.

• 1:56:50Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 1:56:51Pete Roberts?

  I should have.

• 1:56:52Jocko Willink?

  My son would just take them.

• 1:56:53Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:54Jocko Willink?

  They, he would not be responsible for their safety, cause you know, he's another sixteen year old.

• 1:56:57Pete Roberts?

  Of course.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  He would have been jumping off of cliffs and doing whatever else.

• 1:57:00Pete Roberts?

  They would have done it.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  Check. So. Anything else?

• 1:57:03Pete Roberts?

  Oh, white tea.

• 1:57:04Jocko Willink?

  Chaco white tea. Don't forget about that.

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  Chaco white tea, always. Yes. Very good. Certified organic, by the way.

• 1:57:09Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  And you can lift eight thousand pounds.

• 1:57:13Pete Roberts?

  Which is a positive thing.

• 1:57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:14Pete Roberts?

  Oh, by the way.

• 1:57:15Jocko Willink?

  Double blind.

• 1:57:16Pete Roberts?

  We ran out of Chaco white tea the second pay of camp. We brought enough for the week.

• 1:57:21Jocko Willink?

  I don't know how many pallets that was. We brought enough for the week. The director here called me and said, um, we only have a case of Jaco White Tea left. Yeah. So, yeah, we had another, we had some more delivered. It's nice to be up here having a giant warehouse with a resupply. I know. Well, you know, we figured how many cans we were gonna give away and it was like, oh, if everyone has, you know, one or two a day, like 5,000 cans. We're gonna go through 5,000 cans this week on the house. Come to the immersion camp, get some free Jaco White Tea.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  Big time. Also, Jaco has a store, store of his own, online store, Jacostore.com is where you can get, you know, discipline equals freedom, represent while you're on the path, right? Discipline equals freedom. Shirt with his head on it says good. Also shirt without his head on it that says good if you don't.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  If you don't like my head.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, on your shirt.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  I saw somebody at a camp that liked your head. Oh, yeah. It said a T-shirt that said, that said, hold on. It said, Echo looks jacked. And she walked by and I was like, I was like, is that a Jacostore T-shirt? Yeah, is that a? And Jaco's like, no, that's custom.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, it's not, it's not Jacostore approved, but it's approved 100%. I think, yeah, she was fired up.

• 1:58:46Jocko Willink?

  Echo looking jacked. There was another guy that had. There was another guy that had a good shirt on, not approved. It was a ripoff. Did you see him?

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  No, but that happens.

• 1:58:56Jocko Willink?

  I feel bad. And it's got, well, if you see on Amazon, there's a bunch of like ripoffs and one of them is like the whole good. Speech, right? And it just says good really big, but then everything else is really small. And it's just an Amazon, you know, somebody's making teespring or whatever.

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, yeah.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, and I, I actually didn't say anything to him.

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, I can't be like, bro.

• 1:59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got it.

• 1:59:20Jocko Willink?

  Unapproved.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, watch out for the counterfeits.

• 1:59:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:26Speaker 02

  But hey, he's in a way, he is rapper like his action, his intention.

• 1:59:29Jocko Willink?

  His intention is this strong. That's why I'm not mad. His intention is good. You know what? I'm not, I'm not mad at him. Right? I'm just mad that someone's.

• 1:59:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, some insurgents over there trying to, trying to.

• 1:59:42Jocko Willink?

  Never know what could happen to insurgents. Actually, I do know what happens to insurgents.

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:59:46Jocko Willink?

  They get killed.

• 1:59:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they do. But yeah, we've got some lightweight hoodies. A lot of approval on my lightweight hoodie.

• 1:59:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Here in Maine, by the way.

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  We're in Maine.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  It's summer.

• 1:59:58Speaker 02

  Exactly, right? Um, that's what I'm saying. I mean, it's not heavy, heavy, heavy function, function, function, even though lightweight hoodies do have function aesthetically and raw functionality. I'm just saying.

• 2:00:09Jocko Willink?

  Does that lightweight hoodie show your biceps?

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:00:14Jocko Willink?

  I like that you were a hundred percent honest right there. Yes.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  It is true. Cause it's like, it's good, it's, it's that I, you know, I know, and you know what? I know you appreciate the lightweight hoodie.

• 2:00:25Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 2:00:25Speaker 02

  Because it has fashion.

• 2:00:26Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 2:00:27Speaker 02

  Value. Yeah, I think a lot of people do.

• 2:00:29Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't wear it as well as you yet, but I'm working on my biceps again.

• 2:00:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're looking good, by the way.

• 2:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 2:00:35Speaker 02

  Many people have approved that hoodie while I had it on. I approved the lightweight hoodie. They liked the lightweight hoodie. I think a lot of us liked the lightweight.

• 2:00:43Jocko Willink?

  It's there. I didn't like veto it.

• 2:00:46Speaker 02

  It's awesome. Completely awesome.

• 2:00:49Jocko Willink?

  Anyways, hats, hoodies, uh, all kinds of good stuff. JacoStore.com, the rash guards. Where are the rash guards made, by the way?

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  Oh, American made.

• 2:00:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  By none other than.

• 2:01:00Jocko Willink?

  Origin Maine. Origin Maine. Origin, USA. Just origin. Yeah. Subscribe to the podcast. Also subscribe to Pete's podcast. The podcast is called Hands in Daylight. You talk about various jujitsu things. You talk about business things. You talk about history things.

• 2:01:19Jocko Willink?

  Would you say your podcast is kinda like my podcast minus war?

• 2:01:23Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it would be more around like taking back America versus war, but the struggles of, you know,

• 2:01:29Jocko Willink?

  From an industry angle, I would say.

• 2:01:31Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, and it's a lot of storytelling, you know, and it's pretty, it's pretty cool.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a great podcast. It's called Hands in Daylight. This podcast is called Jocko Podcast. Echo doesn't think you've subscribed yet. If you haven't, Echo is disappointed. He would like you to subscribe right now.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  Well, you know, let's put kind of strongly, but yeah, cool. There you go. Subscribe is cool. It's good to subscribe. I'm saying.

• 2:02:02Jocko Willink?

  I was about to say smash the subscribe button. Cause that's just like a joke with everybody. I was watching some YouTube video the other day. They were test driving a car. And it was a pretty good video. Like they were, they were entertaining guys. They were funny. And I was like, oh, these guys are kinda cool. Like this is, these guys are cool. And it's a good subject, you know, you're like watching their given, I mean, I like cars, right? Everyone likes cars, right? And they're test driving a car. And I was thinking, I was actually thinking, if Echo and I were doing this, it'd be kinda fun. Like, remember when we test drove a car? I was test driving a car. You happened to be with me?

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:34Jocko Willink?

  And it was kinda fun, right?

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Now imagine if we, there was cameras in there and we were just talking about how cool that car was, right? And I was thinking that I was like, oh, this is pretty cool. And then in the middle of it, they just start going. Um, and by the way, if you, you know, smash the like button and subscribe to us right now and go check our Patreon account. And I was just like, I stopped the video. Cause they came at me like that. So we have a joke or we joked about. And then I, I overused the joke. Where he was, he said, he told me live, like, hey, that's not funny anymore. So I was just about to do it again. And then I constrained myself.

• 2:03:11Speaker 02

  See, see how it comes full circle? And then now it is still kinda funny because it's a clown of a joke, you know?

• 2:03:19Jocko Willink?

  Then there's a Warrior Kid podcast too. So don't forget about that for your kids and don't forget about the Irishoaksranch.com. Young Aiden making soap on his farm with American hands.

• 2:03:29Speaker 02

  That's badass.

• 2:03:30Jocko Willink?

  And American goats. Running a business. He's now 13. He started it when he was like 11.

• 2:03:36Speaker 02

  So cool.

• 2:03:38Jocko Willink?

  He makes that soap so you can stay clean.

• 2:03:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:03:42Jocko Willink?

  YouTube.

• 2:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. YouTube video version of this podcast. You wanna see what Pete looks like? Big, tall, strong, man, masculine guy. I'm just saying, you're big, you know? Handsome, whatever, you know? He's beautiful. But nonetheless, if you wanna see what he looks like, yeah, we have a YouTube channel. Jocko Podcast YouTube channel. Also some excerpts on there, you know, cut up the podcasts.

• 2:04:03Jocko Willink?

  I like what you've been doing lately with everything. I like the, the content, you know, pulling those excerpts, the snippets out. And it's awesome. Do you prefer, if it's just like me talking, or do you prefer if I talk while things explode in the background?

• 2:04:16Speaker 02

  Hell, yeah.

• 2:04:18Jocko Willink?

  I do like, I do like, um, both. But, uh, for me, I like when you're talking. But for Echo, I like when things explode, like when he like.

• 2:04:28Speaker 02

  That's a very politically correct answer.

• 2:04:29Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully they don't like pull down your post on, their post on Instagram, but like the other day when you're like.

• 2:04:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that trigger warning one.

• 2:04:39Jocko Willink?

  The trigger warning, yeah.

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  Trigger warning.

• 2:04:40Jocko Willink?

  I love when you do that stuff.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  Right on. Good. So I'm gonna keep that up. And the more explosions, the more better. That's what someone told me.

• 2:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  Straight up. Like, cool, Jaco says, cool, stop, I get it. But the way I kinda, kinda distilled it down as far as like the format is, if you're saying something important, and it's kinda longer than one minute, I won't put any explosions on it. Cool.

• 2:05:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  Under one minute, explosions and flames, by the way.

• 2:05:06Jocko Willink?

  We got psychological warfare. Little moments of weakness that you might experience during your day in your brain, in your own little brain. Little debates that are happening. The weak voice versus the strong voice. Sometime the weak voice gets stronger, and it needs to catch a beat down. That's when you press play on your iPhone. That little psychological warfare track that tells you, no, you're not gonna skip leg day. You're gonna go get it. Psychological warfare. That's MP3, iTunes, Google Play, all those MP3 platforms. If you want a visual version of that, that you can hang on a wall, functional graphics.

• 2:05:50Jocko Willink?

  Go to flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer, my brother.

• 2:05:56Jocko Willink?

  He's making these canvases and you know where they're made? Oh, they're made in America. Yep. That's right. What about?

• 2:06:04Jocko Willink?

  What about our friend Dak?

• 2:06:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. So can we talk about the special project?

• 2:06:10Jocko Willink?

  Is there any reason not to?

• 2:06:11Pete Roberts?

  No, let's do it.

• 2:06:13Speaker 02

  There's no reason.

• 2:06:16Pete Roberts?

  Well. Dakota, Dakota Meyer, you know, you got a helicopter.

• 2:06:21Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:06:22Pete Roberts?

  He's like, he's like.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's what he need.

• 2:06:25Pete Roberts?

  I know. He's like, bro, you and Brian gotta come down to Texas. I'll come and pick you up. I'm like, ah, cool. I'm like, get your license first. Oh, man.

• 2:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever been to one of those kind of helicopters that he's got?

• 2:06:37Pete Roberts?

  Freaks me out.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  The, that kind of helicopter, when you go into it, I've been in them before. They seem like, you, you remember when you built a model when you were a kid? You get, did you ever do a build a model when you were a kid and it was little plastic pieces and they stuck them together with test, testers glue?

• 2:06:51Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:52Jocko Willink?

  It seems like this is one elevation above that, just one. It seems like someone made this thing out of little.

• 2:06:59Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 2:07:00Jocko Willink?

  Erector set pieces. That's what it seems. That's what those helicopters feel like. When you get in them and when you fly them, that's what they feel like. You, if you don't like flying, you're not going to be game for that. Especially with Dakota trying to scare you.

• 2:07:12Pete Roberts?

  Decline that. I will decline.

• 2:07:14Jocko Willink?

  And plus you weigh 900 pounds. So that thing would be like flying lopsided.

• 2:07:21Pete Roberts?

  Well, he is a savage and uh, we're actually gonna, gonna do that energy drink for him. The, I, we gotta come up with a better name than energy drink for the new go. What do you?

• 2:07:32Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll think about it.

• 2:07:33Pete Roberts?

  Think about, but, but it's gonna be called Dak Savage.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Dak Savage.

• 2:07:38Pete Roberts?

  Dak Savage.

• 2:07:39Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 2:07:40Pete Roberts?

  So we know, I know I didn't get this jocko approved, but the background is, is camo.

• 2:07:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. No, no.

• 2:07:47Pete Roberts?

  It's a lightweight camo.

• 2:07:48Jocko Willink?

  I seen it.

• 2:07:49Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 2:07:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you sent it to me.

• 2:07:50Pete Roberts?

  Cool.

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  Or you, you were beat it. B Little might've sent it to me.

• 2:07:53Pete Roberts?

  Oh yeah. I guess, I guess we did. Yeah.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  No, it looks awesome.

• 2:07:56Pete Roberts?

  So that's going to production pretty quick.

• 2:07:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, how would you describe that flavor?

• 2:08:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, he really likes Dr. Pepper. Hmm, interesting. So it's like a, like a, what do they call it? Cherry vanilla. Yeah, black cherry vanilla. There you go. Awesome.

• 2:08:11Speaker 02

  Also on it for fitness gear kettlebells, battle ropes, rings, maces, steel bells, you know, all this kind of, would you call that new age workout?

• 2:08:23Jocko Willink?

  No, opposite direction, opposite direction. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  It's like old school right back, right?

• 2:08:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's weird, especially like kettlebells, how they kind of came back like with a vengeance.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they did.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:08:35Jocko Willink?

  Did I ever send you a leather medicine ball that we were making? No. I'm gonna send you one. I'm gonna send you one. But I saw one in the mountain training facility. Okay, there you go. I did good workout in there the other morning. Yeah? Yeah, I did have a good workout.

• 2:08:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, we heard.

• 2:08:50Jocko Willink?

  This is the day that Echo slept. Oh, shit. This is the day that Echo slept. Okay, so Echo was, we, we had a long, we, we flew from California to Boston. We recorded a podcast in Boston. Once we got done in Boston, we

• 2:09:10Jocko Willink?

  drove, it was an early, late night, early morning, drove to Maine. What, what, we stayed up late that night for some reason. Oh, yeah. Then we went to your house. We hung out. Then we went back. And so we got to bed. It wasn't that late of a night. We got to bed at like 10 o'clock, 10:30. So I wake up in the morning, I'm in Maine, I'm stoked, I'm at the mountain training facility. And I go downstairs, you got, and it was one of those things, I just had just figured out a good little workout with the equipment that Chad went, you guys had in a Bulgarian bag. A 28 kilogram kettlebell, which is, which is in between, I have 24, I have 32. So I had a little meet, you know, just a little mix it up. I was gonna up the reps, you know, to try some other movements.

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  And so I'm down there getting after it's 4:30. I get done with that and I was cranking up some music. I was cranking up some rock and roll.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, little playlist.

• 2:10:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  Danzig?

• 2:10:04Jocko Willink?

  Yep, little some Danzig, some Kaya's and then it just playing whatever. I get done, I go upstairs, shower, get done and I have two documents that I gotta edit. So I edit these documents and it's, you know, it takes a while, but two legit full documents I'm editing, get done with that. And then I look at my watch.

• 2:10:22Pete Roberts?

  That was the morning we talked for like two hours.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  Yes, we talked for two hours after I got done working. I went for a run. I actually went for a run down your, towards your old house. I went for a nice long run. I get done with all this stuff.

• 2:10:33Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  And I, I look at my watch and Dean and, and Echo are still asleep. And I go, that's weird that they're still asleep. And it's two, it's 12:40.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  In the afternoon. And at first I,

• 2:10:48Pete Roberts?

  No movement.

• 2:10:49Jocko Willink?

  So I sent him a text like, so I sent him a text like, hey, are you guys alive? Like kind of calling him out. And then I think to myself, wait a second, maybe they, it's been 14 hours. They must be dead. They must be dead. And I got like a little nervous and I thought this, I'm like, they give the carbon monoxide poisoning, right? Like I get it. Okay. I sleep less, right? Than a normal person. Cool. I got some weird genetics. Cool. I sleep five hours. This is three times that, right? There's no way a person can sleep that long. I think this carbon monoxide poisoning, I'm gonna go and fight cold bodies. I go in there and they're just like, Echo's, you know, like, oh, this is really tired.

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  It was nice. Nonetheless, anyway, on it, yeah, on it. That's where you get the cool stuff. Kettlebells, they did come back. I do have a 28 pound or kilogram kettlebell. That's like, what, 62?

• 2:11:42Jocko Willink?

  I kinda liked it, man.

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  From on it.

• 2:11:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. I kinda liked having a little intermediary. The problem is I can go overboard with stuff as we know.

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  Well, you just increase the reps till you die.

• 2:11:52Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, just get like, I'll have every kettlebell imaginable.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, I do. I have the whole spectrum and it takes, but man, it's worth it because like you can modulate like throughout the whole workout, especially if you're doing kettlebells, which I highly recommend. By the way, do kettlebells, Pete?

• 2:12:06Pete Roberts?

  Um, I've just started recently. Just, just like swinging them.

• 2:12:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you should be swinging a nice lightweight because you got your back situation. Swing a nice lightweight and it is so good for you. Man, it feels good. You don't, here's the thing about kettlebell swings, you won't feel this because you're going light. But you think to yourself, oh, I got whatever, I got my forty kilogram kettlebell. No factor, I'll swing this thing, you know, it's gonna be pretty easy. And the first six of them. It is easy. You're like, what is this?

• 2:12:35Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:36Jocko Willink?

  This, by the time you get to sixteen, you're like, okay. Yep. Then you get to twenty-four and you're like, okay.

• 2:12:42Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, I see what's going on.

• 2:12:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it kicks you.

• 2:12:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:46Jocko Willink?

  Kicks you pretty hard. Even on the rowing machine. You got a different rowing machine, but on a Concept Two rowing machine. When you start, you're like, I'm gonna blast this thing out. And it takes a minute for your, for your, uh, energy system. What's that first energy system that you're using?

• 2:13:03Pete Roberts?

  Uh.

• 2:13:03Jocko Willink?

  Like the ATP? Yeah, like the ATP, that immediate sprint one. And you're like using that, and but then it gets used up.

• 2:13:09Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, your anaerobic, that's what it is. Your anaerobic system gets used up and then you're just sucking. But you think you're Superman for the first, you know.

• 2:13:17Pete Roberts?

  How many, how many meters do you usually row?

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  It just depends what I'm doing. Just depends what I'm doing, you know? And I use it usually for sprinting. I'm usually not in there going for twenty minutes. I've been doing it a little bit. When I couldn't run because my knee, I was rowing a little bit more and I was using minimum, I wasn't going to full range of motion. But anyway, so how long are you going?

• 2:13:38Pete Roberts?

  I go thirty minutes.

• 2:13:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 2:13:39Pete Roberts?

  I try to do eight thousand meters.

• 2:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 2:13:41Pete Roberts?

  Thirty minutes.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  That's just consistent, same speed, not like.

• 2:13:44Pete Roberts?

  Dude, I, I did one the other night because that, the, the mountain retreat where you had the great workout, that was our, our original factor. All the big timbers and stuff, of course.

• 2:13:54Pete Roberts?

  I, uh, I've been working out in the evenings and I did one the other night. It was, I got home and it was really late. And I just kept all the lights out and I rode in the, in the pitch black.

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  Could you see the monitor or anything?

• 2:14:06Pete Roberts?

  No.

• 2:14:07Jocko Willink?

  So you just rode until you felt like you're done enough?

• 2:14:09Pete Roberts?

  I actually rode against my shadow because there was just a little bit of light behind me casting a shadow on the wall. And I just, just like chasing my shadow and it was the best workout. I had no idea how long I had rode. I just knew like thirty minutes, I said the time before, in the pitch black and. It's freaking phenomenal.

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you did set the timer?

• 2:14:30Pete Roberts?

  My phone timer.

• 2:14:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:31Pete Roberts?

  And it just went off.

• 2:14:32Jocko Willink?

  Went off, boom.

• 2:14:33Pete Roberts?

  So, and you had no idea?

• 2:14:34Jocko Willink?

  There's just a puddle of sweat.

• 2:14:36Pete Roberts?

  Nasty.

• 2:14:37Speaker 02

  So it's kind of, kind of spiritual, right?

• 2:14:39Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just saying, that's what it sounded like. You see what I'm saying?

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I got some books. I got a new book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. That is available for preorder right now. If you want to get a first dish, then you should order it right now. If you don't, well, it doesn't really matter what you do.

• 2:15:02Pete Roberts?

  Is that a hard copy or?

• 2:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:15:04Pete Roberts?

  How it is?

• 2:15:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a hardcover book. Yeah. It's not the same size as the original field manual. It's smaller so that people can carry it. That's one of the things that when you look at the field manual, you're like, well, do we want to be able to carry it? I'm like, yeah, probably this one is to be used in the field. Leadership.

• 2:15:24Pete Roberts?

  What are some of like the, the chapter names?

• 2:15:27Jocko Willink?

  So it's, it's broken down like this. There's 80 chapters.

• 2:15:30Pete Roberts?

  Holy shit.

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's 80 chapters, but they're short.

• 2:15:34Pete Roberts?

  Got it.

• 2:15:34Jocko Willink?

  Hitting chapters where you go, and it's all about leadership. It's, uh, my boss is micromanaging me. What do I do?

• 2:15:41Pete Roberts?

  How, how would this work for, for some of my, my floor managers? Because they're plugged into the training program, the Echelon Front Training Program, the online program, which has been awesome, you know, but it would be nice because they can't, they can't like be on that while they're operating. We call them operators, right? While they're operating, but if they did have like a book that was like that.

• 2:16:03Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is. That's why I made it.

• 2:16:05Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:05Jocko Willink?

  And, and another thing is I used to be able to say, if someone said, hey, you know, as far as practical application of these principles, what do I do if my, if I got a guy that's, if I got a guy that's got a lot of potential, but he's not doing what he should be doing? What should I do? And I used to just be able to say, hey, just listen, you know, go, go listen to the podcast. And you, when there was 20 podcasts, it's like, oh, cool. You know, you listen to the podcast. Now, if I tell someone, oh, the answer is in the podcast, I'm basically assigning them over 500 hours of listening. And that's just inappropriate, right? So I had to take all this information and like distill it down. So you could say, eh, you could just look it up. It's highly indexed.

• 2:16:44Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  So you can just look up.

• 2:16:46Pete Roberts?

  That's cool.

• 2:16:47Jocko Willink?

  The subject and boom, go.

• 2:16:48Pete Roberts?

  So.

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Totally pragmatic.

• 2:16:50Pete Roberts?

  So would if for, for like our, our managers, our floor managers?

• 2:16:57Pete Roberts?

  Would you say that the book replaces the online training or they serve two different purposes?

• 2:17:03Jocko Willink?

  They serve two different purposes. Here's the facts. You, you, you wanna, you don't get good at anything through one direction of training. How much better you at, how much better you at an arm lock if you learn it from four different instructors?

• 2:17:19Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:17:20Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're way better. How much better are you at any, learning a subject if you learn three books about a subject instead of one?

• 2:17:29Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Infinitely better. It's not just better. It's, it's, it's exponentially better because you're able to compare and contrast what you learned the first time with what you learned the second time. You see it from another angle. So you see it one dimensional. You see it two dimensional. On the third time, you read a book about the same subject, you see it the third dimension. The fourth time, now you're seeing the fourth dimension of things and that continues to go. So all these things.

• 2:17:54Pete Roberts?

  So they need both.

• 2:17:55Jocko Willink?

  All these things are an effort to give the different perspectives and different angles on these subjects because the better you get at them, just like training jujitsu. If, if you, the more you, the more time you spend on bottom inside control, the better you get at handling it. The more time you spend dealing with different leadership problems, the better you get at it. The more different angles you can see, the better you get at it. So that's the purpose. But I would say the initial idea was like, listen, people need to be able to apply these principles. They need, because here's another thing, people read Extreme Ownership, they, they actually understand the principles. They can explain the principles back to you. But as far as overlaying those principles and even overlaying the examples onto what

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  they're dealing with, sometimes people, sometimes, some people have a hard time making those things overlay properly. And so here it is, instead of saying, here's the principle overlaid on your thing, it's like, here's what it will look like right now when you put it there.

• 2:18:57Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:57Jocko Willink?

  It's more, it's more direct. You don't have to, you can do less. You can, you can, you can, it's just more direct. So that's the Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. Um, I, I did just get a note from my publisher and they said this was superb. Superb. Superb. And you know, that's pretty cool. You get, you know, when you've written a bunch of books and someone, this book is superb. That's especially from a publisher that reads books all the time and they don't have to send you that note. Like this was from someone at the publishing company that doesn't, doesn't just send out notes, right? So it's pretty cool. They probably read it and are applying the strategies. Yeah, yeah. They're probably like, okay, I'm going to use this now.

• 2:19:41Jocko Willink?

  Totally. Um, I'll also weigh the warrior kid three, where there's a will. You can get that right now. Way the warrior kid one, Mark's mission. The, the, how many people at camp, how many books, how many warrior kid books have you seen me sign at camp? All of them. Yeah, all of them. I mean, there's this people after people, after people, after people. Those books are having such an incredible impact. It's so amazing to see. I don't think there's anything that makes me feel better at this point in my life than, than getting, showing us a parent showing me a video of a little kid doing a pull up and then looking at the camera and saying, I'm a warrior kid. Yeah, it's badass. This doesn't get any better than that.

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  I've been signing work it books, Duke, by the way.

• 2:20:21Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:20:22Speaker 02

  I didn't write it, by the way, but I signed a few.

• 2:20:25Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:20:25Speaker 02

  I took the picture in the back. There's something.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  We gotta make a movie. Gotta make a movie. We're working it. We're working it now. Uh, yep. And then Discipline is Freedom Field Manual. That's another field manual. This one's directed at you. Individually. How to get after it. The audio version is on MP3s. It's not on Audible. Extreme Ownership. And Dichotomy Leadership, the first two books where you learn the principles. You have to know the principles. If you don't know the principles, applying them doesn't make any sense to you. So Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy Leadership, get these principles into your head so that you can apply them at your business, at your life. They work. They work. That's another thing I hear all the time from people.

• 2:21:11Jocko Willink?

  They say, you know, I've been using it. It works. It works. They'll give me specific example of how it works. I had this call, I had this customer call me and they said, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know what? That's my fault. And they said, you know what? I probably should have given you a better heads up. It works.

• 2:21:29Jocko Willink?

  It works.

• 2:21:31Jocko Willink?

  We got our leadership consultancy, which is called Echelon Front. Go to echelonfront.com. If you have problems in your organization of any kind, of any kind, they are leadership problems. And you need to help get your leadership squared away and aligned, and that is what we do at Echelon Front, echelonfront.com. We got EF Online.

• 2:21:55Pete Roberts?

  Do you, do you, do you share the size of clients you work with? Like, do you let people know, like, you guys are on the road, or I should say, around the world all the time, helping companies become better leaders, big companies? Like, sometimes we go on the phone, you're like, oh, I'm here. Then they say, like, oh, I'm here. Like, do people actually understand the impact you're just having on leadership in corporate America as a whole?

• 2:22:23Jocko Willink?

  I, maybe I don't do a great job of explaining that. We work with the largest companies in the world.

• 2:22:30Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:30Jocko Willink?

  And we also work with smaller companies as well. And if you're so small that it's out of the price range for you as a company, guess what? We got something called the muster. You can sign up and come to one of our musters where we teach these principles. You can bring three, four people in your leadership team. If you've got a company of, you know, what, 20 people, you can bring three, four of your leaders and you kind of get that initiated. And then you can use something called EF Online, which you are using.

• 2:22:56Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we use it. Yeah. And my, you know, and it's nice because before, like, it's always come, come to me, come to me, come to me, come to me, you know, and helping, helping our, our leaders, which is basically everybody in the factory, become better leaders and to learn leadership principles. But now, they can go online and then they come to me with questions they have, right? So honestly, it doesn't take as much time, which is wonderful. So the efficiencies are going up. You know what I did at first? They were, you know, a few, like Jill, the one that's stitching here, and Jen, and a few others, they're like, when can we start? Can we do this on company time? That was the first question. Can we, and of course, we don't have computers set up and everything. And I was like, yes.

• 2:23:41Pete Roberts?

  Yes, you can because I wanted them to know that I'm invested in this.

• 2:23:45Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:23:45Pete Roberts?

  And once I, and so I was using the leadership techniques to teach leadership.

• 2:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed.

• 2:23:52Pete Roberts?

  And then, once they saw that I was in, then they went home and then they got online.

• 2:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:56Pete Roberts?

  And I was like, now they're doing it on their own time because I was invested.

• 2:23:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:59Pete Roberts?

  In them doing it on this, on our time.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 2:24:01Pete Roberts?

  On company time.

• 2:24:02Jocko Willink?

  You want, think of the cost benefit and the ROI we get at Origin, you get at Origin because of the leadership.

• 2:24:11Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 2:24:12Jocko Willink?

  It's just the way it is.

• 2:24:13Pete Roberts?

  Yep. Yep. Absolutely. It's good. Awesome. Awesome stuff.

• 2:24:17Jocko Willink?

  Um, what else we got?

• 2:24:21Jocko Willink?

  We got, so yeah, if you can't come to, if you can't, if you can't hire Echelon Front, go to the muster. The next one's taking place December 4th and 5th in Sydney. We're about to release the follow-on dates for 2020 as soon as we can. The thing is, here's the deal. They all sell out. They all sell out 100% and it's not like, hey, it's sold out, but we can fit in eight more people. No, it's sold out and we, no one else will be coming. So.

• 2:24:46Pete Roberts?

  Want to hear a crazy statistic?

• 2:24:47Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:24:48Pete Roberts?

  Somebody said to me today.

• 2:24:51Pete Roberts?

  You know how many Americans are, I was like, yes, 300 million Americans. And they're like, and how many people are at this immersion camp? And I said, well, 300 per session. He's like, so one in a million. And I said, yeah, and we had to cut registration off three months early. How many people do you let in to the muster?

• 2:25:10Jocko Willink?

  It looks like, it depends on the size of the venue, but it's anywhere between 700 and 850. But the Australian one, we have less. We have a smaller venue. We just couldn't get the size venue that we need. So we have less, but.

• 2:25:22Pete Roberts?

  So two in a million you're letting in?

• 2:25:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 2:25:24Pete Roberts?

  You know what? I mean, it's, yeah, like it's, as far as value added is ridiculous.

• 2:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, yeah. So come and check out the muster. And then of course we have EF Overwatch, which we already talked about on this podcast, taking people that have experience in leadership and putting them into companies in the civilian sector. So if you're a company that needs leadership or you're a leader that needs to move on to your next mission in life, go to efoverwatch.com. And if you haven't heard enough of us.

• 2:25:57Jocko Willink?

  If you haven't heard enough stories about jujitsu, shoes, jeans, whatever else, you can find us on the interwebs. We're on Twitter, we're on Instagram. We're on Dain Fujinbok.

• 2:26:12Pete Roberts?

  What's Dain Fujinbok?

• 2:26:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Facebook.

• 2:26:18Jocko Willink?

  It's evolved.

• 2:26:19Pete Roberts?

  You look real concerned. You were like, wait, wait, wait, what are we on?

• 2:26:22Jocko Willink?

  I thought it was Facebook.

• 2:26:24Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it was.

• 2:26:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, I know.

• 2:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Pete is on Instagram. He's at-

• 2:26:31Pete Roberts?

  I was forced to go on Instagram.

• 2:26:32Jocko Willink?

  But now that's your primary.

• 2:26:34Pete Roberts?

  Well, I mean, I'm, I'm, yeah, it's not pri- what do you mean by pri-

• 2:26:37Jocko Willink?

  That's what you seem to do your most activity on.

• 2:26:40Pete Roberts?

  You think?

• 2:26:41Jocko Willink?

  Where do you think you do most activity on?

• 2:26:43Pete Roberts?

  Origins.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, I'm saying Instagram.

• 2:26:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, Instagram.

• 2:26:47Jocko Willink?

  Instagram is where you do most of your-

• 2:26:49Pete Roberts?

  Yes, I have.

• 2:26:50Jocko Willink?

  You do do Twitter.

• 2:26:51Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:51Jocko Willink?

  Cause I, cause I throw Twitter your direction. When people say-

• 2:26:54Pete Roberts?

  When you throw it out.

• 2:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Hey, when are the jeans coming out? I say, as soon as Or- at Origin BJJ releases them.

• 2:27:01Pete Roberts?

  And then I'll pshh, jump on.

• 2:27:02Jocko Willink?

  Then you'll jump on.

• 2:27:03Pete Roberts?

  No, I do most of my activity on Instagram.

• 2:27:05Jocko Willink?

  So, and those two are at Origin USA and then also at Pete M. Roberts.

• 2:27:11Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, Pete dot M. Roberts.

• 2:27:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Pete dot M. Roberts.

• 2:27:15Pete Roberts?

  That's a pain in the ass, isn't it?

• 2:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Somehow, there's two people that got their names. One's name is at Echo Charles and one's name is at Jocko Willink. And all this stuff that we're doing right now, we would not be doing any of it without our military out there protecting the freedoms that we have. So, thank you all for holding the line and also to our police and our law enforcement and our firefighters and our paramedics and our EMTs and our dispatchers and the correctional officers and the Border Patrol and the Secret Service and all the first responders that are out there, you're the ones that are protecting us here at home and protecting our way of

• 2:27:58Jocko Willink?

  life. So, thank you for what you do. And to everyone else that's out there,

• 2:28:05Jocko Willink?

  there is much to be done.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you what, no matter what you hear about how much competition there is in the world, the fact of the matter is, there aren't that many people that are actually willing to do the work.

• 2:28:27Jocko Willink?

  It's you.

• 2:28:29Jocko Willink?

  So get up. Get to work.

• 2:28:34Jocko Willink?

  And get after it. And until next time, this is Pete Roberts and Echo and Jaco. Out.