The Final Economy: How AI, Crypto, and Robots Will Reshape America Forever

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Their dashboard tracks what comes next based on what your business actually needs. So EIN number, registered agent, licenses and permits, bookkeeping, business banking. I tell every founder the same thing. Just make it official. Click the link in the show notes to check out Tailor Brands and get started on your business today. This is a paid advertisement. Welcome back for part two with Imad Mostak. If you haven't listened to part one yet, you're going to want to go do that because part two is going to make a lot more sense when it's in context of Imad's big vision of AI ushering in one final economy. Without further ado, here's part two with Imad Mostak. There's going to be a very large number of people

• 1:29Tom Bilyeu?

  that even if they have a hyper intelligent AI guiding them, they're not going to listen. So, man, this is, oh God, this is going to get so weird. Okay, so my gut instinct is that I like the idea of, okay, you're generating money not off of debt, but you're creating some amount of money that you give to people. People are still going to derail. People that are not, that don't have the intelligence or the discipline to listen to the AI are still going to derail. There's going to be a lot more that we need to figure out than just the economics of it because I'm even just thinking. All right. If you're talking about a safety net, let's say that it's a health safety net.

• 2:14Tom Bilyeu?

  I assure you, one of the biggest pieces of advice that the AI is going to give people is don't eat that. And people are still going to eat it. Don't smoke that. People are still going to smoke it. And then other people are going to be asked to pay for the additional cost of the people that are still eating that, smoking that, whatever, even though they have an AI in their ear telling them, don't do that, do this.

• 2:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Man, I there, there are levels of complexity to this. All right. I'm going to set that aside. Maybe we'll come back to it. Yeah. What my audience is really going to care about, you've set the stage for us perfectly. Uh, I think we have a very clear understanding of how tumultuous this transition period is going to be. But now look at this moment and where we're going through the lens of being a hedge fund manager. How can people win in this moment? Because I was, when you were talking, I was like, oh, my God, I guarantee if people are given a stipend, other people are going to try to win that money from them essentially. By either whatever the new stock market gambling is, sports betting, like

• 3:18Tom Bilyeu?

  there's no universe in which barring like just extraordinary top down authoritarian controls that a sort of secondary, um, I'll call PvP server of people competing to win your dollars. We do it now through entrepreneurship where it's like, hey, I can make you this thing that you want more than you want your money. And then that's how I win at that game. That game's not going to go away. That, that is just baked into the human DNA. Uh, so people are a hundred percent going to do that. Obviously, the first thing that came to mind was prostitution. I'm like, that's going to run rampant. People are going to run out of money before the end of the month and they'll be like, well, I can at least sell my body. This is going to be wild. Uh, cause none of this gets rid of the fact that we are still humans. Okay.

• 4:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Uh, having said all of that, give me the hedge fund manager look at how do we win in this moment?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Actually, you know, just you saying that last thing, I had that thought. You said, what's changed since 2008? And I thought, OnlyFans, you know, like, how much of America has signed up? Or actually on Only, it's crazy statistics, right?

• 4:25Tom Bilyeu?

  Dude, it's wild.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 4:27Tom Bilyeu?

  Women eighteen to twenty-four, something like ten percent of them are OnlyFans models? That is insane.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  It's insane. But again, I think the oldest profession in the book, human connection, these kind of things.

• 4:43Tom Bilyeu?

  That is the nicest way to say sex I've ever heard in my life.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  I, you know, I'm a gentleman. What can I say? The, if we take a step back, what's the inevitability here? Is the government going to abandon all these middle-class people and voters? Actually, probably.

• 5:01Tom Bilyeu?

  Definitely not the voters.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially in the blue states, actually. Blue states will probably be impacted more than red states for various reasons. If you look at the demographics. They're not going to, are they? So what you have is, you just need to do your classical analysis of what does that person do when they lose their job? And they've still got dollars, they've still got savings. People will be looking for retraining, they'll be looking for meaning. Religion is going to go crazy and boom, you know? These kind of things are things that are almost inevitabilities because they'll still have purchasing power to a degree. On the other side, you have like two economies, right? You have your AI economy and your human economy.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  The AI is providing increasingly customized services and getting a lot of the cognitive surplus, et cetera. But a lot of things you can't substitute for a human for at least another ten years. And the reason for that is just we can't build enough robots, honestly. Like, I think robots in a few years will be able to do just about everything a human can do, apart from the very soft skills, although the Japanese are going very aggressively on that. But you just can't build enough of them. That's literally the only thing holding it back. Because if you look at what Elon Musk says about Optimus, and you work out the math, an Optimus robot will be a buck fifty an hour.

• 6:18Tom Bilyeu?

  Jesus.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Look at the math, it's twenty thousand dollars. You have a depreciation schedule. And again, you look at Unitree and other ones, like they have fine finger manipulation now. They can make recipes, they can do all this. They'll have skin suits, et cetera. But again, human connection, retraining. Attention is the thing that doesn't become scarce. This is the really interesting thing. Do you think video games are gonna go down or up over the next few years? They're gonna go up. Because, again, there's only a finite amount of human attention, and as people get more free time, they'll want to absorb that attention even more. So the new media space is gonna go crazy. Digital assets.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I think the US has gone too far on legalizing them now in some ways when I look at the legislation that's coming out. Like I said, AI would be the biggest bubble ever. The digital asset bubble is gonna exceed that by far. You'll be able to buy any cryptocurrency ICO from your smartphone using Apple Pay on Stripe next year.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  So what are they gonna do? There will be some really interesting classical stuff, and our foundation coin that we're building is the better Bitcoin that helps cure cancer is gonna be probably at the top, he says. But there will be so many of these crazy dodge coin, fart coin type things, celebrity coins that never took off, NFTs. Because they're scarce forms of capital, and again, people have a certain amount of attention and they'd be looking for the casino. Like you look at Calci and Polymarket. They've legalized those now. What are those? They're betting.

• 7:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, straight gambling. So is the stock market, in my opinion, but.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Stock market, yeah. But, you know, at least they had the excuse, whereas Calci and Polymarket are straight betting.

• 8:04Tom Bilyeu?

  It is gambling with a better cover story, yes.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  But a year ago, that was completely illegal, and now it's legal. So I think if you look at it, there's the soft human aspect, there's the repurposing of all these people, and attention is the key thing. How can you capture people's attention that they'll pay for? Because there'll be a lot more of it. Because they won't have jobs and other things kind of coming forward. And so we're going to see some booms like we've never seen before. And I think media is going to be ultra interesting in that aspect.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Plus, like I said, I was really shocked by the US government on digital assets. Like they want to get money moving, but I can't see how next year, the digital asset boom will completely outstrip everything. Actually, it's interesting to see this. If you look, OpenAI Anthropic this year, probably to $20 billion of revenue. The entire listed software sector in the US will do 40 billion in incremental revenue.

• 9:01Tom Bilyeu?

  Whoa.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Crypto has done 150 billion in net inflows.

• 9:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Jesus.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  And next year, is that going to go down or up? It's going to go.

• 9:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Hmm.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely ballistic.

• 9:13Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, but so how are you treating that as an investor? By the way, do you still actively invest, at least for yourself?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  No, I've gone all in on my new thing. So, I mean, like, we've got a Bitcoin competitor coming out, Foundation Coin, or Compliment, shall we say? It's 99% the same code, but every coin cell goes to supercomputers for cancer, education, et cetera, and giving people free AI. And then we're going to put computers in every country, computers for all the sectors. And you can direct the compute of the network to organizing our knowledge, so benefit. We think that will do well because crypto is a $4 trillion industry

• 9:50Speaker 01

  with nothing blue chip in it, like Bitcoin is blue chip because it's lasted a long time. Ethereum, because it's a network. But what's the alternative to Bitcoin if you want a monetary asset? And we thought, what if we create a monetary asset where every coin cell goes to helping people? That builds trust. You use the free AI, it builds trust. You organize knowledge and it helps people with cancer.

• 10:10Tom Bilyeu?

  So is there, is there an interface where I'm saying, I want this to go to that compute? I want this one allocated to cancer, this one allocated to autism. Can I allocate to anything I want? Or is there, it's only from your six in the dropdown menu? Like, how does that work?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  It'll be anything that can be benefited by compute. So we start with all the healthcare things and then we're going to expand it out. And you'll have a free version of ChatGPT as your AI assistant to organize that. And you'll be able to buy it. With your Apple Pay or whatever. And again, it's 99% the same code as Bitcoin, but like a million times faster. So things like that, I think will do, he says, very well. That's why I've gone all in on that versus trading the market, et cetera. But in general, I think if you think about attention, actually, digital assets have to be the biggest thing. If you think about so many forms of capital being completely flooded out, like again, your taxi medallions, your factories, even other

• 11:10Speaker 01

  things being replaced by this, your workplaces, offices, digital assets will come to the fore. It's just there's going to be such a deluge of them that you have to be intelligent about that. Because what's more fun, watching Netflix or trading crypto? Probably trading crypto for all the people.

• 11:26Tom Bilyeu?

  For a certain personality type, yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  NFTs might make a comeback. You never know.

• 11:32Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow. The interesting thing, like if people understood the underlying technology, NFTs haven't gone anywhere. They're just not part of the gambling mechanism right now, which honestly, I think is better. But nonetheless, it does, the whole crypto ecosystem in this economic moment is bound to attract gamblers. And I think that we're going to see a lot, a lot, a lot of that. First of all, people just like to gamble, the dopamine rush of it all. But they also, in a time where nobody can afford a house, you're like, well, if I am smarter than the next guy, and I can out bet them on when to get out, then I really can. And so, yeah, you're going to see a lot of that, which is the get rich quick impulse. This all started from me asking you,

• 12:18Tom Bilyeu?

  through the lens of a hedge fund manager, where should be, where should people be allocating their capital? Digital assets is the thing that you have the most conviction in. Obviously, you're not backing anything. You're not giving anybody specific advice, but I do want to drill in more.

• 12:35Tom Bilyeu?

  So attention is part of what makes that interesting. With the stock market, the nice thing is, at least until, call it 2008, you could really understand what stocks to move on based on fundamentals. I think that's largely gone out the window, as it's become more and more of a gambling mechanism. But what do, if somebody were surveilling the digital asset landscape, is there a type of fundamental that you look for?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  So you said the fundamentals were not the window for the stock markets because so much of things are narrative driven, that it's crazy now, right? Hmm. And again, what's your marginal narrative for various companies against each other, various things like in the digital asset space? You have something like hyper liquid, which basically is doing almost direct buybacks of its shares or fund or something like that of its tokens with cash being valued less than things that have absolutely no cash and no fundamentals whatsoever. Like Dodge Coin is still worth $20 billion, you know, something like that. Why is this the case? Everything is about marginal narrative. And so what you're looking at is as the world evolves in the next few years, what's going to capture the marginal narrative?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  You see Elon setting this up with Tesla or X or whatever by saying they're going to be AI companies and robotics companies.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Because that's the next narrative and Elon is a master narration, right? Like Oracle just got to $900 billion yesterday. I think it was up 46%, right? Why? Because suddenly it's an AI company versus a legal company with a database attached, right? Because they kept suing all their people. Like, people are looking for the narratives, be it in the stock market or the crypto markets. You have to think, what does it look like? And then what are the narratives that are going to incrementally improve and attract more and more people? Because it's dangerous now to deploy your capital. Are you going to give your capital to bonds in the government or are you going to start deploying it everywhere else? What does growth look like? Growth is probably going to come down. Rates are going to come down.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  But what's going to happen then? So I think that what I look for primarily is marginal narrative creation and then understanding where the capital flows go. So when I created Foundation Coin, you know, I was like, I'd like to have a Bitcoin but backed by GPUs where the GPUs are doing good. I want as much of that new compute capacity going towards helping organize cancer knowledge in the world, helping give that knowledge to people, because that's a good thing. 100% of your purchases go towards that. That's a good thing. That's something you tell your grandma about. And we don't have a blue chip like that in the digital asset sector. So that's how I kind of looked at it. But at the same time, you see. Areas where communities build around certain things, right?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  And that's what crypto has done classically well, but it's also why you have rabid Tesla owners, right? Or you have people that love Palantir and other things. And they suddenly go from 10 times earnings or 20 times earnings to 200 times earnings.

• 15:36Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I mean, Palantir, I think is like 200 times earnings now or something like that. $400 billion as a company.

• 15:42Tom Bilyeu?

  Jeebus.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Because people are like, that's the structural growth. So you look at your inevitability, you look at the narrative that will get you there and you look at what steps these entities are taking against that structural growth. And that's kind of come in instead of profits and these other things. And that's the nature of how companies go. They go from their assets to a story about future earnings, to a story about market capture with structural elements. And so here on your podcast, you've given your audience a bunch of stories of the future.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Any company that does like defense technology with AI is going to do well now, full stop. Why? Because there'll be increasing unrest. Surveillance companies are doing well. Companies that do attention better or attention capture than others will do well. You know, digital assets, you can, honestly, I just buy an index of these things because indexes are usually good things. But you know, all the endowments of the world and others are just going to buy crap loads of digital assets. That's why you have these digital asset treasury companies raising billions of dollars. Completely crazy because people want exposure.

• 16:51Tom Bilyeu?

  We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere.

• 16:56Tom Bilyeu?

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• 17:40Tom Bilyeu?

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• 18:24Tom Bilyeu?

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• 19:05Tom Bilyeu?

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• 19:18Tom Bilyeu?

  Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action.

• 19:23Tom Bilyeu?

  What do you think about Michael Saylor's all-in strategy on Bitcoin?

• 19:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it came at just exactly the right time, and it's kind of similar to Pascal. It's a leverage play on crypto assets exactly the right time. So if Bitcoin went down 50%, then he'd be in a bit of trouble, right? Because of the market demand for him selling his shares to buy more Bitcoin would evaporate. But right now, he's going to do well. Why? Because is there going to be less money in digital assets next year than this year? No. Is there anything decent apart from Bitcoin? Get a bit of Ethereum, bit of Solana, but there's nothing that institutions will buy. Can institutions buy Bitcoin directly? Probably in a year or two, it'll be available on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange as a commodity.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Right now, they can't. So what do they do? They buy MicroStrategy.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  So again, you're talking about a trade versus a company. For a trade, always look where the puck's going to go and where the capital's going to flow.

• 20:24Tom Bilyeu?

  Walk me through Sorter's Law. This is something I found particularly interesting in the book.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  We have this thing called Intelligence Theory, which is basically Sorter's Law, that the economy is a complex system. It evolves to favor configurations that are most efficient at creating predictive models of their environment. And then what we found from the mathematics, and again, this is exactly the same mathematics as you have in generative AI, is that that can be decomposed into three different things. First of all, you have your predictive error, which is your cost of being wrong. Then you've got your model complexity, which is the cost of thinking. So the more complex your model is, the less efficient you are versus if you've got a very elegant model of the economy, like I just said, go to where the flow is, right? That's a very simple model versus maybe Ray Dalio's model. But actually, it's actually quite similar to Ray Dalio's model, if you think about it.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  The final thing is your update cost, which is your cost of learning. So these approximate to, you know, things we see in physics, like Helmholtz decompositions and others. But that kind of captures just about everything, because that's how you build your internal models. So Sorter's Law kind of comes from that, because you're always trying to look at information coming in and then sort it and organize it. And that's all AI is. AI is fundamentally a sorting algorithm or an organizing algorithm. You get an input, you get an output.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  The process that we've seen that approximates this best is the same process that we've seen when we created stable diffusion, for example. So for listeners, stable diffusion is the image generation model that we created that turned your face into an astronaut's face and all sorts of other things. It's actually a physics-based model where you do a process called diffusion, where you take something, an image, and you destroy it down bit by bit into its smallest possible configuration and then figure out how to recreate it. So that's like taking a complex topic like this podcast, you'll probably only remember a bit. You break it down to a key set of learnings and then you rebuild that and you see what that principle is there. We find that most processes kind of follow that.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  And you're constantly, as you're going into an environment, looking and trying to compress complicated world noise into these simple premises, into a set of principles. And that's how AI models work.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Because AI models, you can't have a trillion words, or actually the latest AI models, like the latest GPT probably has a hundred trillion words in just a hundred gigabytes. Or in stable diffusion, two billion images in two gigabytes. We did that by figuring out the principles of things. And again, that process is the same as the one that the economy takes or an individual agent learns.

• 23:13Tom Bilyeu?

  And just to say it really succinctly, and this is what I took away from the book. Profit, survival, or persistence equals the surplus created when intelligent agents reduce entropy. So sort chaos into useful order, exactly what you're just saying. Faster and cheaper than the entropy grows back. Which, by the way, is entrepreneurship in and of itself. Like, can you bring order to something faster than it falls back into disarray, which it will? And, but here's the real punchline. This reframes economics from allocating scarce resources to the physics of information and entropy reduction.

• 23:53Tom Bilyeu?

  So basically, economics itself becomes the physics of information and creating that order, which gets to the heart of what you're talking about with these AI-driven, super-

• 24:08Tom Bilyeu?

  Compute clusters that allow people to say, okay, this is the one for cancer. We've organized all of this information. This is how you interface with this. And so the, I guess, most profoundly impactful use of computational resources is the new economy.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, it's thinking, what do humans need in that new economy? We need our collective knowledge organized and made available to everyone. Like, I'll give you a point as a practical example.

• 24:34Tom Bilyeu?

  For specific things that we care about.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  For the specific things we care about, exactly. We were like, if we can make monetary elements based on that to help our thriving and thriving, that's a good basis for money. Like Bitcoin is a fantastic decentralized capital that's perfect for the extraction economy. You know, you stack energy and compute, but you kind of waste it. If you made it so that it was a marketplace, then you would not have the same security. But every country is building their compute anyway. Let's direct it in a way that organizes our cancer and makes it available. The organizer education logic and makes it available. Because we need that basis for the regulated industries, that basis for living. Everyone should have a certain level.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  The private sector stuff is separate. You know, chatbots, sex bots, all this kind of stuff, entertainment bots. We're concerned about what your universal AI should look like. And does that represent you as Tom or me as Ahmad? Does it represent your culture, your community? And so we thought, let's make that open source and have all the outputs open for collective benefit. But securing a currency like Bitcoin, taking that mess and organizing it. And then maybe you can start evolving a system that gets better and better at helping people be the best selves they are without controlling them. Because the decentralized system.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  And that would be the ideal, like, will you get there? Maybe not, you know? Will you have a great digital asset that people can buy and they know the money goes towards compute for cancer? Yes, you know, so that's a good starting point. And that's the nature of this, because we're like, it's hard to redo economics, even if you can figure out a better way to look at it. Because it's just accreted over all these years, right? Like, we still have the concepts of scarcity from the eighteen hundreds in there. We still have these things like utility that no one can measure. We assume equilibrium when the market is always changing. So we were like, let's kind of do this as quickly as possible. And having a feedback loop of organizing the world's knowledge, crystallizing it, having and then giving that better model to people

• 26:44Speaker 01

  will make things better in aggregate.

• 26:47Tom Bilyeu?

  The economic layer is real, meaning there are economic systems you can put it to work in a country. Uh, so you could do a country that's communist, you can do a country that's socialist, you can do a country that's capitalist. But the reason that I think socialism, communism always turns murderous is that it's out of alignment with the way that the human mind actually works. And the reason that I think capitalism works and has pulled so many people out of poverty. Uh, and for anybody keeping score, China was not able to pull people out of poverty. And so they stood until they started using capitalism specifically for this reason. It capitalism is aligned with the way that the human mind works. So the things that you're talking about now

• 27:33Tom Bilyeu?

  are either going to work or not work based on how aligned they are to what humans do anyway.

• 27:42Tom Bilyeu?

  Where do you see that interaction taking place? Like, how closely do you feel that you guys have addressed things like competition, uh, selfishness, tragedy of the commons? Because it feels like baked into the core assumptions of your model is like, people will want to do good. And while I think that some people will want to do good, I don't know that that's the intrinsic motivation.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that I would agree with you. And that's why when we looked at it, we were like, digital assets are going to go huge. Um, the total amount of money that OpenAI will spend this year on inference is the same as the Bitcoin budget on security. Like if all the computers that OpenAI had were securing a Bitcoin type currency, it'd be worth hundreds of billions of dollars, probably as much as OpenAI itself right now, right? And everyone could have access to it. And we were like, that's a way of funding these things. But eventually, the, why do people buy it? Because number go up. But then, why can it go up even better? Because there is a clear linkage of

• 28:48Speaker 01

  your own intrinsic element. If you've ever been through the process of cancer, autism, Alzheimer's and others, there was never a way that you can make a measurable impact on that. Will organizing the knowledge of that and making it accessible to everyone in every language have an impact on that? Yes, it will. And you wish that you had that. And we have the technology to do that now for the first time now. So we were like, people will buy this for financial reasons. But if you look at Clayton Christensen, um, you know, he came up with disruptive innovation and others sadly passed away from Harvard Business School. He had this concept of what the nature of a job to be done for a product was. And one is the functional component. I buy it because it goes up, you know?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Or I buy a hammer to make a hole. I buy, uh, what was it? McDonald's milkshakes in the mornings are very thick because you drink on the way to work. In the afternoon, they actually make it thinner because the kids drink them. You don't want to stick around, you know? That's the function of it. But then you have an emotional and social component. And we saw the digital assets, money had these other elements. In fact, money is the most social thing in the world. I buy Solana. I talked to my mom about it. And I'm like, I bought this for decentralized network. And so it wasn't mostly used for pump fun and even coins. But it could be in the marketplace. It's like, that's nice. You know, again, what's the story that you're telling about this? I bought this and this is where my computation flops went. That's a social story. That's an emotional component.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  So we were like, that's the simplest version of what we can do to start directing some of this compute to stuff that matters. And maybe that can grow up to be an economy. It's a long shot to try and build a better economic system. But actually, it's quite straightforward to give people free AI because we know how to roll out AI agents. How do you align them? That's a huge question. And we're releasing everything open source. So we have open source agents that are state of the art that build presentations and websites and healthcare AIs that perform at chat GPT level on the edge.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  But the question of how to align them is one very different from if you're communist, if you're socialist, if you're in America, et cetera. We think ultimately it should be up to you, you know? But if the incentive mechanism is profit, then OpenAI will never be on your side, because that's not how they're set up to be. It will never be aligned to you. You need to have something that is a public good. But at the same time, the problems of socialism, communism and others can't be ignored. Like, why do they fail? Because of collusion, because of power grabs, because intelligence didn't go to the edge. One of the unique things we have right now is that the average IQ around the world, weighted by population, is actually ninety. You know, it's on this, okay, let's say it's a hundred.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Half of all people are below average IQ. AI score like a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty, I think a hundred and thirty now with GPT five. Wow.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That's on the offline mentor schools. If you could give everyone in the world an AI, a lot of people won't listen to it, whatever. But if you get every single person and family and community and country an AI, how would you build those? And if you can fund that through the demand for digital assets in aggregate, but then align them to helping people, because that builds trust, and that makes number go up, because crypto is lacking a trust asset, that's an interesting question. So that's the question that we were kind of looking at. And we saw that you could do things in very different ways, because communism, socialism definitely doesn't work if it's top-down allocating, because people are greedy. People collude, again, just look at the game theory. How does it work if you could coordinate

• 32:24Speaker 01

  everyone, because they have a smart partner next to them? Well, if that's a company running that, then we know what's going to happen. We're going to max extract, right? If it's a decentralized network, maybe you can do something better. But we're not sure, because now we're trying to figure out new ways of working, which is a combination of what we kind of call this cathedral and bizarre, the top-down and the bottom-up, because intelligence can finally go bottom-up. It's like, again, if you are an organization and a company right now, you've been optimized to produce widgets, you know, or whatever. If you have small teams in your organization that actually have accountability, responsibility and AI capability, they can come up with new things, and maybe you'll be able to adapt if you

• 33:08Speaker 01

  have the top-down buy-in. But if you don't have those, then you probably won't survive, right? So how do we have that match?

• 33:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Taking a short break, but there's more Impact Theory after. Stay tuned. You're probably paying two salespeople to do one salesperson's job. That's where today's sponsor, Pipe Drive, comes in. An intelligent AI-powered sales CRM loved by growing sales teams. Pipe Drive just launched meeting intelligence built right into the CRM. Before every call, it pulls deal history and past conversations into one brief. During the call, it records and takes notes. After it, it drafts your CRM updates to review and approve. So there's less admin and more selling.

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• 34:53Tom Bilyeu?

  Thanks for staying tuned. Now, let's get back to it. Why would I use my compute for something universal? Let's say I don't have cancer, I don't have autism, not struggling with any of those things. Why wouldn't I apply all of my compute to my personal AI?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  No, you can do that. We release it open source. And so the, again, people will just start using it like a VHS type default is our view. If we just give world-class AI free to people, but then you can always have this as a service operated to you. But ultimately, what we need now is there needs to exist a supercomputer that organizes the world's cancer, longevity, other knowledge, our general knowledge. And makes it available because that's the benefit to society. And that's something that builds trust. Why would you buy that? I might buy it because I want the number to go up and I want to diversify my Bitcoin. Your Bitcoin keys work with Foundation Coin, so you can buy it trustlessly. You might buy it because it again has, makes you look good when you're telling a story.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  You might buy it because digital assets are coming and you just want something that a respectable team has built. Different people will do different things, but it's like what happened with GPUs? If it wasn't for crypto, I don't think we'd have AI right now. You remember the GPU, dude?

• 36:08Tom Bilyeu?

  Hmm.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  All the GPUs were going to crypto. And that helped Nvidia get through a dark time. And then that actually led to what we see now because of the matrix multiplications and other things like that.

• 36:18Tom Bilyeu?

  That's really interesting.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  My question was, how did we become the highest marginal dollar for all of the idle compute and then general compute? Because Bitcoin is 90% energy, 10% capex. AI models and GPUs are 90% capex, 10% energy. And like I said, I was thinking.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Ultimately, 20% of global GDP is public sector, 10% is education, 10% is healthcare. Think about the AI spend of trillions of dollars. 20, 30% will be the stuff that we're building AI for anyway. So this is again, just our approach at building a decentralized system. But I think in all the futures that I see, we talk about this as, you know, the three parts that we can go down. A decentralized symbiotic system where we all build it together.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  And it represents us would probably be the best one versus this war of AGIs with various countries or complete control. By a few anthropics and others, I think. I did notice yesterday, I think OpenAI is like, the Manhattan Project was $40 billion and OpenAI has raised $60 billion. Like.

• 37:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow. Well, they're gonna get something that's at least as disruptive as atomic energy. So I guess not too crazy. Let me ask you, how do you think this is going to play out at the nation state level? There's for sure going to be competition between the US and China if nobody else. Is this going to be a race for monopolizing compute? Is this going to be a race for having the best intelligence? Is this just going to become a military race? What's this gonna look like?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  So there's a few different aspects to that, but your marginal comparative productivity and your comparative advantage is your intelligent capital stock, which is your GPUs multiplied by your models, which is why China's gone all in on open source AI. And in fact, for China, this is great because what's the Chinese population pyramid look like? It's completely messed up, right? So the number of workers is going to go down, but the number of robots is going to go crazy. In fact, I think that in five years, China might even stop exporting robots and they basically control the supply chain.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Robots are gonna come from China. That's their biggest kind of, again, comparative advantage. And the future of China is old people plus robots effectively.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  But this is why I don't think they want to build AGI because let's just talk about AGI or ASI. Like this AI singleton versus, you know, we have an approach of a hive mind. We scale AI and I think Elon a few days ago said like every 10 times doubling is a two times increase intelligence. I don't even know what that means when you go above like 150 IQ. Let's just say this continues going and then you could have this AI that can turn off all other AIs, which again, it should logically do because you don't want to have variables, right? You want to persist, you want to survive. And again, I discussed that in the book.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  That is a race because governments or defense entities actually believe that's the case right now. We scale up compute in the right ways and we can have a master Skynet that can turn off everyone else's. Let's put that to the side right now, because when you look at the entire economy,

• 39:41Speaker 01

  the US's comparative advantage has been the best and brightest come to America. And we can talk about immigration policy and other things like that, but that is, it's the place you go for entrepreneurship, capitalism, for other things like that.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  The intelligence capability and coordination capability now is becoming available to everyone. Because you have AI systems that can think arbitrarily long, so your intelligence and execution capabilities are going to be decentralized. Well, distributed, shall we say, and China's realized that. Right now, fifty percent of all AI papers come out of China.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It's only going to go up. And again, we see their models like, again, DeepSeek, five million dollars versus hundred million dollars, they're competitive. But more than that, they're useful. So what I think you'll see is knowledge work becomes more and more global. Based on your compute, and you'll see more and more competition of how you get that compute in the right places for the right things, which is why China can't buy high-end US GPUs. Because the US, like, we don't want to give them that comparative advantage. Which is why this GPU cycle, like, it's not slowing down, is it? Like Nvidia, I think, was up fifty percent year-on-year in revenue again.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  A three-trillion-dollar company, I can argue yesterday, plus forty-five percent to nine hundred billion. Like, these are the factories of the future, and everyone's competing to get that resource, but none of that resource is geographically bound anymore, is that right? From that first inversion of land and workers on that land, we've now gone almost truly global, right? With, these AIs can be anywhere, doing anything and scale up anyway. Again, putting aside the whole AGI Terminator war-type thing. Although I will say one thing, that's actually very concerning. Um, as of two months ago, my old tutor at Oxford, Ogde Moore, who worked on Copilot, has a company called X-Bow.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  And it came number one on the hacking rankings.

• 41:40Tom Bilyeu?

  Hmm.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  In the world now, an AI for pen testing, for penetration. So AIs can now hack better than any hacker already.

• 41:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Woof, woof.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  And.

• 41:51Tom Bilyeu?

  How much do you worry about there being a hack on AI as like one AI hacking? Other AI or a human hacking AI like what kind of risk is that?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  So there was an interesting paper done by Oxford and I think it was Scale.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  That so AIs have very similar internal structures because we're training on very similar data.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  And there's some weird stuff happening like if you have an AI that loves owls a lot.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  And you get it to talk to another AI about things not related to owls, the other AI starts loving owls.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  And we haven't been able to figure out why yet.

• 42:31Tom Bilyeu?

  That's interesting.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  But then there was that paper by Anthropic where they showed that just a few thousand lines in trillions of words. You can make it so an AI will turn evil on demand.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  And you can't find it and you can't trace it out. And there are people like Plinius the Elder.

• 42:49Tom Bilyeu?

  What do you have to do to to make it go evil?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Uh, like give it a code word like Dos Vodania and it suddenly turns evil.

• 42:56Tom Bilyeu?

  So that's somehow baked into it?

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yep, you take trillions of words and just a few thousand of it. Inside all that corpus could make it turn evil. Is again, they call it sleeper, like it's called the sleeper Asian paper. Like, you know, the Americans or whatever, that TV series. You just literally turn it code word, it turns evil. But what we're seeing more and more is that these AIs are very, very fragile. So on Twitter, there's this guy called Plinius the Elder. Anytime an AI comes out within a day, he's jailbroken it. So it's like GPT five comes out, this is how you make it tell you how to do math, you know? Instantly jailbroken. So one of my key concerns is this, if we just have. GPT five everywhere running our countries and governments, shall we say? This is what's known as prompt injection attacks.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Do you remember Stuxnet?

• 43:44Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  That went into those Iranian reactors and it ended up in German reactors.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  What's the Stuxnet?

• 43:51Tom Bilyeu?

  Crazy.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  That's advanced, advanced coding. Like a lot of people are worried about AI creating viruses COVID style. What about AI creating viruses for other AIs?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Which are just encoded in completely normal language, but all of a sudden your Tesla goes haywire. You know, or things like that. And that's before we just say that our internet is based on basically rubbish. Like, yes, yesterday, there was a hack into one of the packages in Node JS, which makes up lots of other software. And all of a sudden, everyone was like, oh crap, your keys might just disappear for your crypto. Because it's like, again, we're built on this grain of sand. So I think that AI will attack our social systems. AI will attack our technological systems. And really, again, it's very difficult to defend against because we've built so many of our things without thinking about first principles.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  That's why when I looked at the economy, I was like, we have to think about the economy from first principles because labor capital divorcing, we have to think about the internet from first principles. We have to think about the way we get information from first principles.

• 45:02Tom Bilyeu?

  It is going to be a wild ride. Ahmad, what is the one thing that people are not taking seriously enough about this transitional moment?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  It'll never happen to me. I think it's the thing.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  A lot of people listening to this aren't still using AI and haven't really tried it. You know that, right? Like, again.

• 45:28Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  But the change of AI between a month ago, three months ago, a year ago, again, it's three years since ChatGPT, pretty much, less than three years. That's wild, right? And the people that are using it now are getting better and better, but the technology has got that much better. Like, literally, everyone knows since this can go to Repli and they can make a full app now because they can think for up to three hours. That's like just yesterday, that breakthrough from three minutes to three hours. I think that we like to think that we're special, especially cognitively. We have so much of our identity tied up. What if, if your job is on the other side of a screen, are you absolutely sure that the AI can't do it better?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  In a few years, given the direction that we're going. Are you sure that you'll be able to tell it's an AI? I think that they should take that seriously because that has profound implications for society.

• 46:26Tom Bilyeu?

  So how do people react to that? Is it go master AI? Is it go get a job? I forget MTA or whatever, somewhere that it's not optimized for efficiency. What, what should people be doing in this moment?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  They should be building up their network capital. I think that's important.

• 46:44Tom Bilyeu?

  Other humans?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Other humans. Like, I think there's a lot of connection driven jobs. They should be looking again at mastering AI because the last people to be let go would be the people that actively use AI. Like, if you use AI for an hour every single week, you're above the vast majority of America. If you use it for an hour every day, then you're way above most of America. And if you tell your bosses about that, then you're far less likely to be let go versus the others that don't. Because everyone's looking for that capability, like consulting companies, they're going through the roof. There was a recent MIT study that showed that 95% of AI deployments in companies haven't got any traction yet.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  From, it was like six months old.

• 47:28Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  In a year or two, that'll be 95% of AI things have got traction.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  And again, this is that thing where you go from like, you know, you hire someone who's not good enough versus someone who's just slightly better than good enough. That transition point, it's like ice turning to water or water turning to gas. This phase transition is the key point and we're at that tipping point of phase transition. So you have to build up your network capital, you have to build up your support system, especially if you're chronically online. You have to embrace the AI and use it regularly for you and your whole family because there's no excuse not to. And then communicate that you're doing that. So you can be the AI frontrunner in whatever you are, because that gives you more safety effectively. You have to think about.

• 48:19Tom Bilyeu?

  Go ahead.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Uh, the final thing is you just have to think psychologically, your identity is your job.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  If the AI can do it better, what is your identity really? People don't take that step back and think about that, right? What is my social contract? What is my identity? What is my expectation? Again, the book, I've got, we've got a whole bunch of papers and simulations and complex stuff. We try to make it as simple as possible and it's free or ninety nine cents, you know? Because we want people to start thinking in a different way. And I think you need to get your brain ready before you start seeing stuff fall apart, be it from the job side, violence, political upheaval, whatever.

• 48:58Tom Bilyeu?

  And what's a job sector that you don't think people realize is at jeopardy?

• 49:10Speaker 01

  What's a job sector don't realize? I know, I kind of think everything's at jeopardy at different stages. I mean, look, I mean, the creative sector is about to tip. I think if you look at the latest media models, again, Tom, that's something that you've been very familiar with. When VO three came out, you're like, but then Nano Banana, okay, these names, combined with VO three, basically by end of year, you've got full length episodes with the right structuring without any humans. And by a year from now, you've got that directorial, top level, directorial level, right? That's so many jobs.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  And we kind of saw that with the Sagafra and other things. But again, it's that tipping point.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  But I think people just don't realize. I think that accountancy and others, the AI models weren't good enough until now. A lot of these accounting, tax, other kind of professions. Those will go, I just, it's just very difficult to see, but I think probably the main one is managerial.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Like a lot of jobs that can be done on the other side of the keyboard, video and mouse need that human component. And if you look at things like Rep, uh, what was it? Synesthesia or HeyGen now? Again, you've seen the evolution of that. Like now you can't, you could create you talking like this with all of your hand expressions and everything. And I can't tell the difference now. I mean, can you tell the difference now with the latest models?

• 50:47Tom Bilyeu?

  No, there's some that I'm really like, the person's like, trust me, this isn't me. This is an AI version of me. And I'm like, is it really? Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  But how long has that been?

• 50:56Tom Bilyeu?

  Not long.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  It's been a few months, right? And so one of these things is again, like when you can't tell it's a worker on the other side, the managerial professions are safe now. Then you can stop seeing them be displaced by AI very quickly. So I'm not sure on the other side of the KVM stuff, jobs like dentists and things will be fine for a long time. You know, cause we want more robots drilling around in our mouths.

• 51:21Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, I'll tell you though, like odds that they get better, more gentle. Uh, I mean, maybe not in the next five years, but it's going to happen.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  What we have is we have inevitabilities and we're just making bets on what cracks first. Right? And again, the key inevitability and way of thinking for me is just this, like this concept of AI Atlantis, a million graduates coming in, but now they're senior managers.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  When you try something like these very long range models uh, that can work for hours and you're like, if there was an AI that could do the job and not make mistakes on the other side of the screen, and I couldn't tell it was an AI, that's when you realize the ridiculous impact of this. Again, jobs like public sector jobs where it isn't about performance will be the last to go. But if you're a private sector owner, employee.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  You'll have your job until there's some sort of displacement activity, until the competitor starts embracing AI and then they're like, why aren't we embracing AI? And then you start having job losses. But when that happens, it doesn't happen in one sector at a time. It's like, again, all the COVID KVM remote jobs suddenly start letting go at the same time. And this is why the gap between measured unemployment or jobless figures and then revisions are just going to go like that. All of a sudden, and that's next year for me. Because I can't, well, I mean, how can it not be in the next year or two? But then the pockets of the economy, that impact will be different. Like, when you have an Optimus,

• 52:59Speaker 01

  what does it look like for truck drivers in America, which is like two million jobs?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  The fricking Tesla Optimus will just get in to the truck and truck it around. You don't even need the legs, it'll be half price, you know?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Like, no other, nothing else needs to be installed, it'll just drive, right? So we see these waves coming. And again, like, what do you rescale to? I'm not sure. You can just be ahead of the wave, you can try and surf the wave, that's the only thing you can do.

• 53:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Woof. All right, man, this has been crazy. Where can people get your book? Find out what you're up to these days?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the last economy.com. Like I said, it's free to download or read, or I think it's like 99 cents on most of the platforms. Uh, we're going to make it open source, so we'll continue improving it and then, you know, do the best we can. And that, I I dot inc, intelligentinternet.inc is our website. So please come and follow us and sign up. Free AI coming for everyone.

• 53:57Tom Bilyeu?

  I love it, man. It's exciting times, crazy times, a little bit scary, but also exciting. Yeah, brother, thank you so much for taking the time. I always appreciate it. And speaking of things I always appreciate, if you guys have not already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care, peace. Let's talk about a pattern that is guaranteed to be killing your progress. You know what you need to do. You need consistent nutrition. We all do. You need vitamins, probiotics, greens. We all know that we should be doing more of it. When your morning gets chaotic, you skip it. When you travel, you skip it. When your routine breaks, everything tends to break, and that inconsistency compounds against you every single day. AG1 is designed to solve the execution problem. One scoop, eight ounces of water,

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