Tap Into Your Vulnerability with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson

This week on IMO, Craig and Michelle are joined by basketball legends and fellow podcasters Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. The two discuss their careers on the court, how they have evolved both personally and professionally since retiring from basketball, and the steps they are taking to embrace the type of healthy masculinity they want for their own sons. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Your mom go to work at six in the morning, she get off at six in the evening. You don't even see her when you get off from school. So I seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father.

• 0:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  She never demeaned him in no type of way, never spoke bad of him. So when I start having my own kids, you know.

• 0:14Craig Robinson?

  And you got a lot of them.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  I got a lot of them.

• 0:16Michelle Obama?

  Do you, how many kids you got?

• 0:17Speaker 00

  I got six girls, I got one daughter.

• 0:18Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  No, I don't have, I don't have no seventeen kids.

• 0:21Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  I got five, I got five girls of my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys.

• 0:32Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Colaguard.

• 0:38Craig Robinson?

  Michelle Obama.

• 0:39Michelle Obama?

  Hi Craig, how you feeling today?

• 0:41Craig Robinson?

  I feel terrific.

• 0:42Michelle Obama?

  Is that crochet?

• 0:46Craig Robinson?

  You, you'd be better telling than I would, you like that?

• 0:49Michelle Obama?

  Let's see, that's kind of a knit.

• 0:50Craig Robinson?

  It's mesh, it's either knit or it's.

• 0:53Michelle Obama?

  Very fancy with your little silver buttons.

• 0:56Craig Robinson?

  I, I tell people all the time, the hardest part about this job is keeping up with your wardrobe.

• 1:01Michelle Obama?

  Well, that just won't happen, you should give up.

• 1:04Craig Robinson?

  I know, I know.

• 1:04Michelle Obama?

  Just call it quits.

• 1:05Craig Robinson?

  I should start rerunning my outfits, I should.

• 1:08Michelle Obama?

  Oh, you can't do that, mm-mm, sorry. I won't allow it. No, no, but you look cute today.

• 1:15Craig Robinson?

  Thanks, I feel cute.

• 1:16Michelle Obama?

  What's new and exciting in the Robinson household?

• 1:20Craig Robinson?

  Uh, not much, we just got back from Orlando from a, a, you extravaganza into the summer. I couldn't be more happy with the end of the summer, but we, we had fun, we had fun, the boys played well.

• 1:36Craig Robinson?

  And it was extremely hot down there.

• 1:39Michelle Obama?

  Did they, did they win?

• 1:41Craig Robinson?

  They won enough games to be proud to, they won more than they lost.

• 1:46Michelle Obama?

  That's good, did you rent a car?

• 1:49Craig Robinson?

  We did, we did, it wasn't a Rivian though.

• 1:51Michelle Obama?

  Uh-oh. How's the Rivian?

• 1:53Craig Robinson?

  It's, it's good. It's good. Yeah, our, our listeners know that we were gifted Rivians to, to test out and talk about and uh, it's, it's going well. You know, I found a new feature.

• 2:05Michelle Obama?

  Tell me, because there's so many features.

• 2:07Craig Robinson?

  I finally took the car to go get washed.

• 2:10Michelle Obama?

  Tell me about that.

• 2:11Craig Robinson?

  And you know, I was thinking, you know, taking the, having the car in the driveway, having the kids wash it. That's all fun, but I was like, wow, I'm taking it in to the car wash. And it's got so many cameras and sensors. It was going crazy while I was going through it.

• 2:24Michelle Obama?

  Oh, it was one of those you stay in the car?

• 2:27Craig Robinson?

  It was one of you stay in the car and, and uh, it was, you know, telling me that there were cars coming up behind me and to the right. And so I, I was going through the, the

• 2:39Michelle Obama?

  Screen?

• 2:39Craig Robinson?

  The screen and I found a spot where you hit it for car wash and it turns off all the cameras, closes the windows. You can't accidentally open them while you're in there. Uh, pulls in your mirrors and turns off all the cameras and sensors. So

• 2:55Michelle Obama?

  Nice.

• 2:56Craig Robinson?

  Uh, that's something to keep in mind.

• 2:57Michelle Obama?

  They thought of everything.

• 2:58Craig Robinson?

  They have thought of everything. So

• 2:59Michelle Obama?

  That's good.

• 3:00Craig Robinson?

  All right. This is, this is one show we have, I have, you two.

• 3:05Michelle Obama?

  I have.

• 3:05Craig Robinson?

  We have been waiting for because we have a couple of guests here who are um, they're killing it in their own right.

• 3:13Michelle Obama?

  Yes, they are.

• 3:14Craig Robinson?

  And um, a couple of, of basketball legends and I'm talking about Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. And uh, probably the first guests that I have to look up to.

• 3:28Michelle Obama?

  Literally.

• 3:29Craig Robinson?

  Literally. Um, but um, um, Matt Barnes spent 14 seasons in the NBA. And for those of you who listen to our show, 14 seasons in the NBA is an outlier. Um, most of the folks who are in the NBA are in there for a hot minute and are out. He excelled as a defensive specialist and enforcer. His basketball career ended in with the 2017 championship with the Golden State Warriors. In his final season, he is a proud father, the CEO of All The Smoke Production, the co-host of All The Smoke and an investor slash advisor for several companies.

• 4:13Craig Robinson?

  Stephen Jackson also played 14 seasons in the NBA. So no two for it, I mean that.

• 4:20Michelle Obama?

  That's a rare thing.

• 4:21Craig Robinson?

  God, 14 years. He was pivotal in the San Antonio Spurs 2003 championship. He is the co-host of the hit series All The Smoke and has emerged as a spokesman for human rights inequality for people all around the world. These guys had me on their show.

• 4:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Craig Robinson?

  Back when we were first getting started.

• 4:43Michelle Obama?

  And they are killing it on the smoke.

• 4:45Craig Robinson?

  They're killing it on All The Smoke. Matt and Stephen, come on out, fellas.

• 4:51Michelle Obama?

  Come on, join us. Hey, guys. Hi.

• 4:56Craig Robinson?

  What's happening?

• 4:58Michelle Obama?

  Welcome, welcome. I'm doing great.

• 5:00Craig Robinson?

  What are you talking about? Good to see you, man. The heels. Thanks, brother. Being here. Thank you, brother. Being here. Thanks for having us.

• 5:07Michelle Obama?

  Matt, thank you.

• 5:08Craig Robinson?

  Thanks for having us.

• 5:09Michelle Obama?

  It's so good to see you.

• 5:11Craig Robinson?

  I heard your AAU, AAU summer, huh? Doesn't that take the whole summer? It just takes the whole summer and it's bad basketball. Oh, it's horrible basketball. You coach too? Are you the coach? I'm coaching my kids. Same with me. It's just bad hoops.

• 5:27Michelle Obama?

  So what makes it bad basketball?

• 5:29Craig Robinson?

  Well, you got.

• 5:30Michelle Obama?

  And what do you mean by bad basketball?

• 5:32Craig Robinson?

  Where do we start? IQ. First of all, you know.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  He's around it every day.

• 5:37Craig Robinson?

  He's talking basketball IQs and these are NBA guys. I'm just want to get to where not everybody's an independent contractor. Let's just play like a team that you're supposed to play. Play it right, learn how to play. You'll get seen. Right. But if you keep playing like this, guys like me who used to be looking at you guys will go into the next guy. What age group are you coaching? Fifteen U.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Okay, I'm sixteen.

• 6:06Craig Robinson?

  And thirteen U.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. I just feel like to your question, Michelle, it's just this generation of kids are super skilled, very skilled and talented because they're, they're training, but they're training individual training. So it's head down. How many times can you put the ball between your legs? Just all the stuff that doesn't really add up to the next level. So college is, you know, all these spacing and ball movement and playing off the ball. And then obviously NBA is the ultimate show for that. But these kids are just head down and go to the basket. And it's very individualized and selfish. So the hardest part for me, and probably for you, is just getting these kids all on the same page because they're all the best team, they're all the best kids on their individual teams. And we try to come together for the summer and be a unit. And it's difficult sometimes.

• 6:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. It just feels like AAU is just an industry.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Oh, it's a moneymaker. That's all it is.

• 6:50Michelle Obama?

  And I always give him crap about the deep investment in AAU for my nephews because it's, it's like, to me, and this will be controversial, it's like, it's not doing anything for these young men and women, you know? I mean, I had always hoped that sports would be that place where kids would learn not just the, the skills, but they would learn how to be on a team.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  A lot of different things, yeah. From team sports, you're right.

• 7:16Michelle Obama?

  Have some role models, learn how to listen, you know, learn how to lose, learn how to win with grace. And it just feels like these, this whole league is just all about money.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  That's all it is.

• 7:27Michelle Obama?

  And convincing some parents that your, your child will be the next.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Whoever they think. Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  To me, is it like a gift and a curse because AAU was a blessing for me. I come from a small town where if I didn't have AAU, nobody would never heard of me. So that's why I used it to be, to make a name for myself and become a, a top high school prospect. But now it's not even for that, you know? It's, it's, a lot of people are playing the game for the wrong reasons and around these kids for the wrong reason.

• 7:54Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 7:55Michelle Obama?

  Can I just say? Just as a point of introduction,

• 8:00Michelle Obama?

  is that I am so impressed with the both of you on so many different levels.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  This means she's through talking basketball.

• 8:08Michelle Obama?

  No, no, I know we could go on and on.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  You know, when the queen talks, we all listen now.

• 8:12Michelle Obama?

  But I, but you know, watching you guys in podcasts, watching you out in the world, watching how you carry yourself, watching how you do talk about more than just basketball, and how you are serving as role models for men connecting with something other than sports. I mean, that is one of the reasons why I'm really excited to have you guys on the show. You know, you just don't meet men like, like you often.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  That means a lot, especially coming from you guys. I mean, and that was our thing, you know, we were kind of outcasts or bad guys in the NBA, but it was just what we had to do to survive in the league. And I think our transformation post NBA has kind of opened a lot of people's eyes. And again, never perfect. We've had a lot of mishaps, but I think, you know, genuine and pure hearts and wanting to do the right thing and understanding that, you know, we don't take this microphone for granted. You know, being a trusted voice in the black community is something that's, you know, very near and dear to our heart and, you know, I mean, we're here now, you know what I mean? So again, it's an honor to be here and we appreciate that.

• 9:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and you talk about a transformation, but was it? I mean, you know, you all came into the league as enforcers or that became your, you know, role. Probably because you're hungry, you need to win, things you learn. But when I hear about your backgrounds, you know, like I see the humanity in you then, you know, it's just sort of like that, that league played, you had to play some role. That wasn't you because you just don't become this if you weren't already that, right?

• 9:52Speaker 00

  And a lot is, you know, misunderstanding too. Like, people will consider you and put you in a certain category, but we just love playing basketball and we played it with the ultimate passion, so. Just because I play the game harder than you don't mean I'm a thug or I'm a bad guy. I'm a force. I just played a game with a passion and wanted to put my body on the line. And you're not willing to do that. And that's why we look that way at times. Me and Matt just love the game and we love our teammates. Everybody didn't love their teammates.

• 10:17Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? We loved our teammates and that's why we so close now because we're very identical. We don't look, I look better than him.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  But now as people, we are the same and I think that's, a lot of people see that now.

• 10:31Craig Robinson?

  But I don't think, and you guys tell me this, when you first got drafted and you were just going in, you weren't going in with the mindset of, I'm gonna be this guy.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Michael Jordan.

• 10:43Craig Robinson?

  You, right? And whoever you thought you were gonna be?

• 10:47Speaker 00

  No, we didn't. We wanted, I wanted to get in the NBA, make a career and last and make some money and change my family's life. I didn't go in there trying to be the best player because I knew that really wasn't feasible for me. You know, I got drafted, second to the last pick, you know, I went overseas a couple of years, so that wasn't my role. I went in to find my role and it worked out for me.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  I think obviously finding a role is instrumental for anybody because everyone thinks they're gonna come in and be the next step for LeBron or Michael Jordan or Kobe or whatever, but those guys are, you know, once in a lifetime type players. And to find your role is what gave us both longevity. We found out, okay, yeah, I'd like to do more of that, but that's not what they're looking for. This is what I'm gonna do. But I think back to your point too, and I think we caught the end of social media with our NBA career. So what you saw is what you get, you know, so you may see Jack slap somebody or me cuss out a ref and you think, oh man, they're such, but you know, you saw two hours of a competitive guys that were doing anything they can just to continue to, you know, prolong our careers. So I think again, post-career was when social media really started hitting and we were able just to show who we were.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  And again, not perfect, but real. And I think that's been our secret to success. Transitioning is, we didn't switch up, you know, we both worked for ESPN and Fox and worked on these networks and now have our own thing, but we've, you know, whole hardly been us the whole time. And it surprised a lot of people thinking that, okay, you can play this way and you can talk this way and still do this.

• 12:10Craig Robinson?

  So where, where did the idea for All the Smoke come from?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Go ahead, bro. You tell the story better.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Uh, man, we were, uh, we were fellowshipping.

• 12:21Michelle Obama?

  Describe that.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  That was, you know, we were, we were sitting back after a Sunday.

• 12:26Craig Robinson?

  Like a cold word.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  We were at my place, I had a place in the Bay still, right when I retired from the Golden State. And we happened to just, he came in town, we were hanging out, watching games. And we were both having some success with Fox and ESPN. And we kept getting a lot of feedback. You guys need to do something together. You guys are authentic. You guys are real. I mean, obviously, we were brothers, but it was just like we were, he was Fox and I was more ESPN. So we were just kind of, okay, what can we do together? And I was just like, let's do a podcast. And we didn't really know what it was, but I'm just like, I think we could more authentically be ourselves, you know? He's like, what's a podcast? I'm like, I don't know, but I think we can, uh, we can, we can smoke and we can drink and we can be ourselves. And, uh, you know, I'm kind of the one that's in the weeds, learning the business and understanding stuff. And had an opportunity to meet with Brian Daley, who was at Showtime at the time. He flew out from New York and, and we met at a hotel and I pitched him an idea.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  And he liked it. And he had to fight tooth and nail to, to get it passed, because this is Showtime, Showtime, like the linear network. So they're just like, you want guys that are smoking weed, talking about sports on our network? They're like, no, that doesn't work. So he had to, he, he put his life and his job on the line for us and fought for us. And, you know, the first season in, we won Sports Podcast of the Year. And kind of just flipped the whole industry on its back. I think we were the second, I think, knuckleheads, Quentin Richardson and Darius Miles were maybe a handful of months behind us. But when we came in, we kind of really feel like we kicked the door in. And now we're almost, you know, kind of like the godfathers of, of this space. Because there's so many podcasts out now. But I, I do want to say with the amount of podcasts out, we don't look at anyone as competition.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  Because I feel like we're unique in our own ways and everyone has their own journeys and own stories. And I think a, a player's perspective is what fans as a whole want to hear. That's what I want to hear now. I'm a fan now that I'm done. So I want to hear what a fan has to say, or what a, what a pro has to say. So we got a ton of brothers and sisters in this space now. And I think it's great because now, for so many years, it was only the talking figures that had never played, that are speaking on who we are, who we think we are, instead of. Us allowing or us talking for ourselves, but also allowing our brothers and sisters to give their own truths and painting their own pictures, so.

• 14:31Michelle Obama?

  Well, and part of showing that piece is is folks understanding and knowing your stories, you know, little Matt and little Steven.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Little Matt.

• 14:41Michelle Obama?

  You know, and I am, I'm so moved by what you guys have both been through. But talk a bit about growing up, you know, what your childhoods were like, what home was like, what it wasn't like. I know you've talked about it before, our audience is new to you, and I want, I want them to know all of you, because that's also what makes you special.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  For me, I grew up raised by my grandmother and grandfather. So I'm a grandma's baby. I'm a grandma's baby to this day. I get emotional thinking about it.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  She had, I have a lot of aunts, so I was raised by a lot of women. I grew up in the church, transferred Muslim now, but I grew up in the church, grew up singing in the church choir.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Trying to sing.

• 15:26Michelle Obama?

  You got a voice?

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Trying to sing.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  No, he doesn't.

• 15:28Michelle Obama?

  Okay, never mind.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  No, I would not do that to you.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Don't, don't, don't gas him up.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  I would not do that.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Just real family, or it's a small town.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Eight sets of low income housing, one or two high schools, one grocery store. So I seen it all. Just thankful that I had a great support system. My city, every time I tried to get in trouble or be something that I wasn't, they protected me, and then they saw me with the talent to go to the NBA that when I didn't see it. So my city just protected me, small town, pulled out the Texas, Jimmy Johnson, Janice Joplin, they all from there, Jamal Charles, Kendrick Perkins is from 15 minutes away. But I had a great upbringing, and I was lucky that I was around a lot of love, because I made a lot of mistakes. And the people around me showed me that you have a chance to be something in life. So I owe it all to my city and my family.

• 16:18Michelle Obama?

  Is your grandmother still alive with us?

• 16:20Speaker 00

  She's, she's, my grandfather passed.

• 16:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, were they able to see?

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Yes, so the first year I made it to the NBA, my grandfather passed. So he was able to see me, my grandmother, so, yeah. It worked out.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Uh, me, man. Biracial child, Italian mom, black father, uh, growing up in the eighties.

• 16:41Michelle Obama?

  Yikes.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little different, a little different. My parents, my dad would tell me stories of just being in certain areas and, and getting into fights because he was with a white woman. Um, so, growing up a biracial kid, the first eight years of my life, I didn't know any different because I was around a lot of kids that were either like me or black, Mexican, Asian, whatever it was, and then we moved to Sacramento at about nineteen eighty-nine, and my parents were both functioning drug users. Um, you know, we never went without, but I knew, and, and again, growing up in the eighties, I just saw a lot. We had the house that everyone hung out at, so I just saw a lot growing up. Um, but the oldest of three, and moving at the end of the eighties up to Sacramento, it was kind of a culture shock, although we found a neighborhood that was similar to my neighborhood, my parents started putting me in predominantly white schools, and although

• 17:26Speaker 03

  I'm half Italian, I was never really around white kids, and I was always a big ol' outcast. Um, had to fight for friends, fight for the opportunity for sports, uh, faced a ton of racism, um, but I really think it started shaping me at an early age of just, okay, this is, this is a cold world now. Like, I, you know, I had a little, a little bubble my first nine years, but I'm in this real world now where people dread you based in it. You know, I would go home crying at times at eight or nine years old, like, why won't the kids let me play? And obviously, my mom would console me and hug me and love me, and my dad's like, no, fight him. And I'm like, oh, you're giving me a pass to fight? So, uh, you know, at, at eight or nine years old, I started fighting for that respect and fighting for racism, and I didn't really understand why, but it just was what it was.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  So, you know, long story short, uh, I gained a lot of acceptance, and once they accepted me, I was an athlete that played four sports, football, basketball, baseball, and track, and, and really made a lot of lifelong friends that I still have to this day. Um, but I, I would say the one thing that shaped my entire childhood, literally right up until I went to UCLA, was just the racism. Uh, my senior year of high school in Sacramento, kid was messing with my sister, calling her racial slurs, and I did what a big brother's supposed to do, I protected her. And school didn't believe me, they thought I was some kind on, on some bully stuff. I get suspended for a week, and then the, the school is nearly, is vandalized by the KKK. Burned down bathrooms, mannequins with dye barns, nigger here. And I mean, there's still swastikas engraved in there. I've been out of high school for almost 30 years now.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  So it was just really kind of, again, I don't look at it as like, poor me. It was just kind of what shaped me and what gave me a voice before I even had a voice, before I had a platform to share my voice. And that's why I'm so outspoken to this day on racism and in politics and policy and police brutality, because I've just seen a lot as a young child that I knew that, okay, if I'm ever blessed enough to have my own platform, I need to speak up for all the people that don't have an opportunity to speak.

• 19:25Craig Robinson?

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• 20:07Craig Robinson?

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• 20:43Craig Robinson?

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• 21:28Craig Robinson?

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• 22:13Craig Robinson?

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• 22:57Craig Robinson?

  and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for a colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Typically, your college major is unlikely to be your profession, and that's certainly the way it was for me. So it's really important to be extremely flexible and open-minded about what you're willing to pursue.

• 23:42Craig Robinson?

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• 24:26Craig Robinson?

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• 24:54Michelle Obama?

  Have you guys, do you guys go back to your homes, your neighborhoods? Have you spent some time back there reinvesting?

• 25:02Speaker 00

  My family's still there. I did, I opened, I tried to open a school there one time. But as of today, I go home and see family. But I lost a lot of siblings in the last couple of years. So I just, it brings back memories. So I just try to stay away from my home.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  I get back to Sacramento. I mean, I'm very interested in policy. So I've been up to the Capitol and helped pass police brutality bills and helping. Kevin Johnson was a former NBA player who was the mayor of Sacramento, who kind of inspired me to think about possibly, you know, I gave myself, I think at 31 or 32, when I was still in the NBA, I was like, by 50, I'm going to be the mayor of my hometown. So I'm 45 now, so I don't know. But I've been doing a lot of grassroots stuff back there with, you know, equal opportunity cannabis stuff and again, walking the state capitals and doing that kind of stuff. So not directly in my neighborhood, but just more kind of getting back to the city and planting those seeds in case I do decide to go back one day and, you know, do something.

• 25:54Michelle Obama?

  Do you think you might get into politics?

• 25:56Speaker 03

  I could, I mean, I love politics. It's something that, um, something that I really found fascinating. At first, what interested me in politics, it wasn't so much the policies. It was more, I just saw Kevin Johnson revitalize his neighborhood. He came from one of the worst neighborhoods in Sacramento and he kind of turned it upside down in a good way and provided a lot of job opportunities and just opportunity for people. That's what inspired me. I have a six-year-old and 11-month-old to go with my six-year-old twins. So daddy duty is always first and foremost.

• 26:25Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely, and politics will suck the life out of that.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Right, so when, if it ever presents itself, once my boys are old enough and it really kind of set, you know, it's something I may take a look at.

• 26:35Michelle Obama?

  Do you consider yourselves outliers in your, I don't even want to say your industry, but in the peer group of athletic men? And I'll say that because I found that, you know, it was, it was always very easy when we would reach out, because we would always reach out to top athletes, to top entertainers. WNBA, women, always signed up when we all voted, you know. From college on, it was always hard to get the brothers to...

• 27:10Michelle Obama?

  You know, to focus. Um, I'm just wondering why, what, what, what are we missing? You know, in sports where women athletes are ready to, you know, go, go whole hog.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  I want him to answer first because I think he's come a long way, but he has. And, and you know, this is a very interesting question because I was someone who dove in once I started learning about it, but he was someone on the other side. He'd only seen, and I'll let him speak for himself. He'd only seen the bad side of stuff. So what is my vote or what is my voice gonna do?

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Especially, you know, with, you know, George Flo is my close friend, like my twin. So seeing that whole situation, you know, seeing both sides of with people that are there for the right reasons and people that are not, you know, it, it'll, it'll rub you the wrong way because you're dealing with a situation where there's somebody that you love that passed.

• 27:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  But now you're using this for a political gain. You know, so I seen both sides. So for me, I actually start asking them questions because there's a lot I don't understand and don't know. I, I, I kind of leave them, leave them in my heart.

• 28:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  You know, and I'm not big on hope dealing. If you want to do something for somebody, do it. If you know what they need, do it. That's just how I look at it. So, and I know politics is not that clear cut. So I, I, I'm, I'm open now to listen to him and to learn more about politics because, you know, I understand how it affects us.

• 28:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  From the George Floyd situation. So, uh, I'm always been one person that I don't know everything and I've been willing to learn, but that situation with me, you know, not sleeping some nights, you know, seeing how people really hate other races, like I've never experienced that and been in the middle of it in my life. So to see that, it, it opened my mind to a lot of things. So, um, I'm willing to, to understand people and ask questions and, and I don't think if I would have went to that situation and seen all the pain and people hurt and, and been to 29 states on my own dime, giving this to, to neighborhoods that I'm not from, and to see how much we need stuff, I'm, I'm, I'm open to, to learning any and everything involving politics now. So, uh, I credit that to him and I credit that to the situations that I'm able to experience.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  And I just think this is, this is a marathon and not a sprint and you guys know that. And I think the reason why I jumped in and obviously that we knew that there was going to be a ton of people who were voiceless, uh, but then also becoming a father, you know, you always want the best for your kids. And at one point I'm not going to be here to guide them and, and do everything. So I wanted to try to. Be a part of something and understanding the power of our platforms. I mean, we have athletes low key run every aspect, whether it be fashion. You know, our opinions are heavy. We've got not necessarily arguments, but definitely disagreements because I'm just like, you know, I feel like what he just said, I was just like, there's so many people that feel like you. So if you would come out and explain that, I think people will kind of, okay, I get why you don't. But now that he's willing to listen, I think it's huge. So.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  We never disagree. We disagree for about a good week.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. He was mad, glad to be honest.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  But we love each other, so it was healthy conversation.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  I would be checking on him, just understanding, you know, what he was going through with the George Floyd stuff. And just understanding to be able to embrace the opportunity and, you know, being a leader on the basketball court is one thing, but you know, this guy led the biggest protest the world's ever seen. You know what I mean? So to understand and be able to galvanize that and carry that momentum to the next level. What it was, as I'm always, I've always been a team guy. You know, you talk about principles you learned in AAU that you don't learn anymore. You learned, I think if it's taught the right way, you learn so much stuff from team sports. So I'm always trying to bring people in and understand that, you know, where the fist is stronger than the finger. The most important thing on the court for us at the time is to be able to be focused. Because no matter how crazy the world is, we're paid a lot of money to do our jobs. And there's no excuse, whether your mom dies, your kid's sick, you know.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  None of that matters when you're on the basketball court, you know. So again, that's why I respect, I may not like, but I respect everyone's decision, whether they want to use their platform or not, because it is, it's a lot, you know what I mean? And I even feel today, not playing, I'm just like, every day I look on social media like, this stuff is heavy.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  I think until growing up, we become numb to so, so much stuff. So like, you know, we see family members can't afford medicine and die. We see friends, accidental murders and stuff, so much growing up. So when you get to the point where you're having success and you're able to change your family lives, like you kind of come numb to the stuff that you grew up seeing. And that's not right. You know what I'm saying? You gotta go back and try to help, you know, somebody else and so they won't go through the same situations you've been through growing up. So, you know, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of kids don't see it because a lot of these kids in the NBA, they didn't struggle. You know, a lot of them didn't struggle. So they don't know what it's like.

• 31:36Michelle Obama?

  And that's new now, right?

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a new wave.

• 31:39Michelle Obama?

  Talk about that a little bit more.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  A lot of kids grew up, I grew up on food stamps and drugs and violence. Like my kids grew up behind private, in, behind gates in private schools, you know what I mean? So these kids don't have. They don't, I don't think a lot of them really know their why. You know, because everything has been, these kids now are getting more money in high school and college than some guys are getting in the NBA. So it's just like, where's the grind? We had to grind to get to a certain level, grind to get a certain amount of money. And now, thanks to, because we've always talked about athletes should be paid, but these kids are getting paid a lot earlier and they're getting a lot of money. So where does that, where's their mindset at? What is their, again, what is their why? So it's just a different time now and I'm happy for all these kids because we busted our asses to make sure this is the way they got to grow up. You know, I mean, again, to his point, we don't want our kids, I don't want the kids,

• 32:24Speaker 03

  my kids to struggle with the racism and, and, and the food stamps and, and living with family and family them with us. Like I worked my butt off so they didn't have to do that. But at the same time, how do you instill those qualities in your kids to understand that, hey, this is not the, you know, we're blessed. This is, we're not the richest family, but we're comfortable enough to know that the rest of the world may not see this or, or live like this.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  That's why I give him credit and like, he's done, done a great job of changing the trajectory of his kid's life. But you wouldn't know. You know, they're very down to earth, they're very humble, they're, they're good boys. So you, they don't carry themselves like we've been living a great life. They're very humble and when you're a parent that can come from the struggle and change the life, but also instill that into the kids, I think that'd be the best ones to have the best in both worlds. Because you're gonna deal with some stuff in life that you don't have the blueprint for. And you're gonna have to figure it out, you know, on the fly. So, I mean, that's just life, but I, I, I like the fact that he, what he said. Because you want to change your kid's life, but you still want those to have the morals that we grew up with. We're saying, yes ma'am, open doors. A lot of kids don't do those little things no more. Holding doors for the elders and stuff like that.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  So if you can instill those, those morals into your kids, but also understand they're still blessed, I think that could, that'd be the best kids.

• 33:31Michelle Obama?

  How do you do, how, how are you all doing that?

• 33:34Speaker 03

  I think parenting, I think when we grew up, and I'm, and I'm 45, our, our, it was a dictatorship. When, I mean, what my parents said went, period. You know what I mean? And if you talk back, you were gonna meet the consequences. I think now it has to be, we have to meet in the middle. I think more, it's a more of a conversation now because of the internet and because they have access to so much stuff at a younger age and they're hearing different voices and different opinions and seeing stuff we may not know they're seeing at a certain age. So with me, particularly with my, my, my twins are 16 and I have a six year old and I have an 11 month old. So it, it, it was always for me. Leaving little breadcrumbs, knowing that I'm gonna have to cross this bridge eventually. And then it was just kind of leaving breadcrumbs with girlfriends and then holding hands and hugging and then kissing. And I was thankful, and they're probably gonna get mad at me, but when they're,

• 34:19Speaker 03

  when the boys were about to start having sex like that, I think we're close, you know, can we? And so I, I, I knew I did something right to know that my sons felt comfortable enough. And I was like, did you tell your mom? They're like, no, we can't tell mom. You know what I mean? So they felt comfortable enough to come to me to ask something that I hid from my parents, and I'm sure 90% of the kids would hide from their parents, is, you know, we're about to step into a whole new space of girlfriends and sex and that kind of stuff. So to answer your question, I just think it's more of bringing our old school morals and discipline and meeting them halfway, understanding with this generation and this culture is like, because the last thing you want to do, and I credit my kids a lot, especially being in this media space, is being old and outdated in your ways, because you get attacked for

• 35:02Speaker 03

  that these days. And that kind of thinking doesn't elevate at all. So finding that, that, that old school discipline and morals and, and, and understanding and meeting with this new generation of just, life is at the palm of their hands.

• 35:15Michelle Obama?

  And, and you can do that way earlier than you think with kids, you know? You can't use big words, you can't use examples that don't make sense to them. But if we sort of fully see children as people, and not as our little mini-me's, or people who are just here for our entertainment and our comfort, but as humans in the room who have real legitimate questions. I mean, I always say, our kids have a lot of questions because the only thing they have to do in life is watch us. They ain't working, they don't have worries, they're watching everything we do, everything we say.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 35:53Michelle Obama?

  You know, and if we don't explain ourselves to them, if we think, oh, you're too young to understand, you know, you're automatically cutting, you're taking away their credit.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  I think for me, watching my mom made me a great parent. My dad stayed five minutes away from me. He's, he's gone now, but he never was around. My mom worked from six in the morning, you know, this graveyard shit, where your mom go to work at six in the morning, she get off at six in the evening, you don't even see her when you get off from school, so. I seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of way, never spoke bad of him. So, when I start having my own kids, you know.

• 36:27Craig Robinson?

  And you got a lot of them?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  I got a lot of them.

• 36:29Michelle Obama?

  Do you do? How many kids?

• 36:30Speaker 00

  I got six girls.

• 36:30Craig Robinson?

  Seventeen?

• 36:31Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  No, I don't have, I don't have no seventeen kids.

• 36:34Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  I got five, I got five girls of my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys. Matt? No, no, Matt, you know how he is on the show. I can't do that. It's like we're watching.

• 36:46Craig Robinson?

  I'm, I'm, I'm on my best behavior, but every once in a while, I gotta poke him a little bit.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  It wouldn't be him if he don't. It wouldn't be him. But, uh, just, just learning from her and watching her do the things she did. And, uh, as I started having my kids, you know, it's a lot of situations where I could have responded out of emotion.

• 37:05Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Imagine being at your child's game.

• 37:08Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  The mother poisons him so much that all his teammates will come and talk to you, but your son ignores you.

• 37:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  So, I'm leaving games crying because I don't know how to respond. But seeing my mom.

• 37:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Not demeaning my daddy, get up every day and do what she had to do for us.

• 37:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  That showed me, look, just continue to do your part. It'll, it'll, it'll.

• 37:24Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  It'll, it'll, it'll work out, work itself out, you know, and eventually did. But, um, if I wouldn't have known that, if I would have seen such a strong woman raising us and working hard for us every day.

• 37:34Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. Now, you guys, so you, both of your careers are kind of mirrored, right? You had to really overcome obstacles to get to where you were. Then you get to where you are and you gotta overcome even more obstacles. And I would be interested in hearing, how are you helping your kids understand those obstacles? And then overcoming their own? Because, like you said, we, we all came up differently than the way we're raising our kids. And I, I hate being the old guy to say, oh, back in the day.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  You have to, though.

• 38:11Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  You have to, though, because they'll never have it as worse as we had. And I think that's, that's the only thing, like, I tell my size, your journey's gonna be different from mine.

• 38:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  But you won't have to work as hard as I have. You have your own journey, you have your own ups and downs, your own stuff you're gonna go through. But I paved the way for you, I wait for you where it can be easy, you know the road, I, I, I. The blueprint, basically playing basketball, if that's what you want to do. So I've done everything, you know, the good and bad for you to know what not and what to do. So I think that's a blessing to have because we didn't have that. I never had an NBA player come talk to me as a kid and tell me you can make it and not to do this. So just so I have the experience to give him, I think he's ahead of the curve already.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  And I also think too, from a different standpoint, and it's unfortunate, but it's the norm now, it's just broken homes. You know what I mean? My divorce, my twins, mom, when they were five years old and we had to learn how to, mom and dad's house this weekend, mom's house next weekend, how can we still, and how can we still bring a village together to let them know we love them and support them? And our love will never waver, although your mom and I aren't together. Our love for you, you guys are still the apple of both of our eyes if we're gonna do anything. And then unfortunately with my second situation, now I'm in a similar situation with my 11 month old and my six year old now, where you know their mom and I split up. So to me, it's really a lot of mental, a whole lot of, we talk sports and we talk,

• 39:34Speaker 03

  but to me, it's just making sure they're okay. Because again, although it's the norm, it's still tough on a child. I mean, I think the divorce rate for professional athletes is like in the seventies. You know what I mean? So again, unfortunately, we fell into that statistic. But at the same time, you know, understanding and as the twin, it's night and day with the twins. Now the twins completely understand, you know, I get along with my ex and her husband. And again, it's a village for them, but it's new to my two youngest. So trying to explain to my six year old, like what is going on? Obviously, the baby doesn't know any better, but to explain to my six year old that mommy and daddy don't live together no more unfortunately, but you know, you're still, we're coming, we're still doing stuff as a family for birthdays, graduations, holidays.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  We're gonna still make it as comfortable as we can because there is no blueprint for broken families. You just gotta hope that, you know, you keep the kids first and that you can be cordial enough to, to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be, although we're not together day to day anymore. So, and I think again, that part of my story isn't unique. I think it's very common. And to be able to still put the kids first, no matter what you're going through with your ex. Ex-husband or ex-wife, I think is is is always the goal and it's not as easy as it sounds. I mean, I had some hard times with my twins, with my ex-wife, just trying to get on that page. And thankfully, we're there now. And again, you know, this newer situation with my younger ones

• 40:58Speaker 03

  has been easier with her. Her and I still communicate constantly and where we're putting the kids. But I know my six-year-old, you know, sometimes has issues with it, you know what I mean? So just making sure that I'm loving on him and communicating with him more as you're only six, but I'm gonna communicate with you as if you're older and because I think you understand what's going on. So again, there's no blueprint for this, but you know, being a father is my greatest accomplishment and the thing I love absolute most on this earth. So I gotta pour, although the situations didn't work, still pour everything I can into my kids.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  You've been present from day one for all your kids and that's what all fathers need to understand. Just be present. It ain't about money. It ain't about time. Be present. Make your presence felt in your child life and mask the mask out of it.

• 41:49Craig Robinson?

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• 43:08Craig Robinson?

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• 43:21Speaker 04

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• 43:40Speaker 04

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• 44:07Craig Robinson?

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• 45:30Craig Robinson?

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• 46:00Michelle Obama?

  How do you all manage the emotional presence for your, for your children as men? I know Matt, in an interview, I heard you say that you hadn't cried.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  That's what we did. I cried.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  I cried.

• 46:16Michelle Obama?

  Have you cried yet?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  I haven't. I wanna, I wanna learn. I don't know.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  He came close when we had.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  Jason Wilson.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  I hope we can get some off the camera time with him because he came close.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. He was, he was special. And I mean, that interview was so special because we didn't even go off any of the, it was just freestyle. Once we had it, started having that real conversation and I felt vulnerable and I felt okay with it because I know me sharing my story, there's a ton of people that have similar journeys or have the same issues. Uh, why I can't cry? I don't know. I, I want to because I know it'll be a great cleansing. But again, I've, I've touched on the emotional, the emotional side and the emotional intelligence of kids. And, and again, it's just conversating. You know, one of my twins, this is supposed to be a big summer for him and he went to a top 100 camp and fractured his ankle. So he had to watch the entire summer. And it's just one, you know, you've got a twin brother out there doing his thing and then the other twin is just like, and so one twin, the, the school is starting to talk

• 47:11Speaker 03

  to one twin and then the other twin's like, what about, you know what I mean? So just again, that emotional and letting them know, we still got him and you still have plenty of time to show the world what you can do. And this is, you know, this is going to build character and, because there's, again, to Jack's point, I mean, their journeys are different and, and, and kids run from the grind these days and they transfer and they're jumping all around. So I was like, this is going to build, I was like, I promise you, you're going to be better.

• 47:35Michelle Obama?

  Do your, do your kids cry? Do they feel?

• 47:38Speaker 03

  They do, yeah. They're definitely comfortable enough too. You know what I mean? But again, they didn't, you know, for us growing up and, you know, it's probably similar like growing up in a crying, showing a sign of weaknesses, huh? What? You know, and, and mental health as what? Like, mental health just started becoming a conversation maybe five or six years ago. You know, if you cried, you were soft. If you had issues, like, forget your issues, you know? And I was someone to the point where I made it through all the bad stuff I had to go through. So, mental health, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not letting that hold me back. And then when I started getting counseling and realizing like, hey, some of the stuff from your childhood is a reason why you're not empathetic, is you need to be more sympathetic, or you put up walls. It's just like, okay, now I need to go. He said, "Little Matt." It made me laugh. That's what my counselor says, like, you know, you got to tap in with little Matt and, and,

• 48:20Speaker 03

  and fix those things that, you know, my parents didn't know that they were doing it wrong, but that sometimes they were doing it wrong and it caused issues as, for me as an adult. So, again, being very aware of the surroundings and the environment I put my kids in, considering that I'm into unfortunately failed situations, but I have kids with kids in those situations. So, how do you stay on top of it mentally and then from the, the loving side of it as well?

• 48:43Michelle Obama?

  I mean, failure isn't a bad thing for kids to see in their parents.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 48:48Michelle Obama?

  I mean, that's, that's something that Barack and I try to remember all the time. It's like, you know, seeing the vulnerability, seeing the fear. It, it kind of gives, I found them permission to have those same emotions. Like, we think we're being strong for our kids. We think we're, you know, shielding them, but, you know, when my girls perk up, it's when we talk about failure, right? And to see two parents who have succeeded at a certain level, you know, I, we have to make it a point, right? Because they, they weren't around when we were grinding and struggling.

• 49:28Michelle Obama?

  We lost congressional bid, uh, bid, uh, when I failed the bar the first time, when, you know, we had an argument or when, you know, they, they were too young for that. So, it becomes even more important for us to take them down those emotional paths because they... Kids like ours, they have so much support, but they have so much pressure.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:53Michelle Obama?

  And it's not from the outside world, it's internal.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:56Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's like my dad is so, so awesome. I don't want to disappoint them. Like, they're having those little thoughts in their heads, right? And we have to be really, really deliberate about breaking that stuff down for them, giving them permission, making failure like that's part of the journey. So, look, look at us.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  But also too, I think, you know, when you're young, you think the, the road to success and whatever success that is for you is like this.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:24Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  You know, and it's the furthest thing from the truth. But as you get older, you start to see like, hey, that failure or that mishap is gonna help me get back on track. But again, and that's why I said earlier, like protecting your kids too much to me is you're gonna set them up once they're free and have to really fend for this world. Like, if they haven't seen anything, they're gonna have a hard time finding who they are as adults.

• 50:43Michelle Obama?

  We had to be so deliberate about that, right? Because our girls had Secret Service agents until Malia went to college, which we were thrilled about in the teen years. Barack was like, I'm gonna get reelected just so that my girl has Secret Service in the teen years.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  You ain't sneaking off and doing nothing you ain't supposed to be doing.

• 51:02Michelle Obama?

  Nobody's sneaking, doing anything. But at the same time, I had to give them enough rope to sneak. You know, because just like you, it's like, you got to learn what trouble is before you run into it. You know, you gotta have the baby trouble. The trouble of being at the wrong party at the wrong time. You gotta, you know, learn, you gotta learn how to drive. You gotta get a ticket. You gotta get through an airport by yourself.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Trouble where the ramifications aren't big enough to ruin your life.

• 51:30Michelle Obama?

  Well, and also.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Because a lot of people don't get out and make it out of those situations.

• 51:33Michelle Obama?

  And also, I wanted them to have some of those experiences when they were coming home to me, right?

• 51:39Speaker 03

  So you can still talk through it and work through it?

• 51:41Michelle Obama?

  We could talk through it, right? So you guys have such deep wisdom when it comes to fatherhood. How has that impacted your love lives? What have you, how have you grown?

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Here you go, fellas.

• 51:53Michelle Obama?

  Because there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  With me, I'm, I'm, Michelle, I'm learning, I'm, I'm learning daily.

• 51:59Michelle Obama?

  You see, you didn't let me fill in that blank.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  I'm learning, I'm learning daily. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's really within myself and, and understanding. Cause I think we get such a jaded point of view being professional athletes. However, long you're a professional athlete, like, and then for us to be professional athletes and then still jump right on big TV and still kind of keep, you know, we were both, I mean, he was a better scorer than me and accolades on scoring, but we were both somewhat role players, but we were able to transition into this media space and, and somewhat be stars and, and kind of, you know, trend setters in this space. So I think as athletes, you have such a false sense of just reality at times and being able to look yourself in the mirror and like, hey, all this drama here and you want to point the finger at other people, you need to point at yourself first.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  You know, be able to look at the mirror and understand like where your faults were and what I could have did better, even if it wasn't all the way my fault, what could I have did better? So really just a lot of, of reflection. I'm at a real reflective point of my life right now, just kind of understanding, trying to build a better, better relationship with God, because I know all that stuff is going to help me be better in every field. Um, and so again, I'm currently single and, and again, not necessarily looking for anything because I think right now more is just like, I gotta get little Matt all the way together and, and that's going to help grown Matt be a better man, father, owner, friend and, and business partner.

• 53:19Michelle Obama?

  What if I tell you if you cried once, you'd find the love of your life?

• 53:23Speaker 00

  I, I can't, I can't wait to be there because it's going to help me too.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  I need it. I just, I need it.

• 53:29Craig Robinson?

  You know when it'll come? It'll come.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  It's supposed to.

• 53:32Craig Robinson?

  When, when, when your boys, it's going to come from your boys.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Cause I, I would, you know, it's funny you said that. I'm just thinking there's, they'll be 17 and I only have another year and a half with them and they're gone.

• 53:44Craig Robinson?

  When they're gone, that might be the time.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  My gosh.

• 53:47Craig Robinson?

  Drive them to college.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  I'll be, yeah. Go with them. Take them to dorm.

• 53:50Michelle Obama?

  Well, we had one of those moments with Barack when we dropped Malia off, uh, cause we still did, cause we tried to do all the normal stuff, even as president.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:59Michelle Obama?

  You know, so she had to go a day earlier so that the motor, presidential motorcade, we could go on the campus. Do the thing, you know, take her boxes up because I was like, we are not farming that out. You know, she's leaving home, right? So I, you know, so we're up there, the roommate's parents got to come early. And so we're doing all the college stuff, I, you know, making her bed. Because whenever they went to camp or somewhere, I said, I'll make your bed once and I'll make it really neat and nice. And then that's it. Got her room all set up and you could tell Barack was totally clueless. He didn't know where to be. We gave him a lamp from Ikea and said, put it together. Here, you take this box, you put it together.

• 54:43Michelle Obama?

  There was nothing to put together, but he was over there with his lamp for like two hours, you know? Uh, and then came time, we took her to lunch at some restaurant and then we had to leave. We had to get in this motorcade and leave the baby behind, you know? And to watch her standing at that restaurant, ugh, waving goodbye. So I'm crying, Barack gets in the car, you know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade. You know, we're a little quiet and I hear this.

• 55:15Michelle Obama?

  That was literally the sign. I had to look over and be like, you know, the agents are like, sir, are you okay? And he's like, it's like, just, man, just do it, just cry, let it go, make it happen, you know? But it was like, you know, there was just a deep kind of, you know? Leaving your kids in a place, you know, and, and saying that's it.

• 55:43Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I wanna, I wanna ride to.

• 55:44Speaker 03

  You wanna ride with me to drop off to college?

• 55:48Speaker 03

  By the way, guys, Michelle's gonna be joining us today, so.

• 55:51Michelle Obama?

  It's like, I'm here, I'm here, I'll make your bed.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 55:55Michelle Obama?

  While your father cries over the lamp.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  I'm looking forward to it again. It's, I don't know what it is. I, I just feel like, you know, I lost my mom, that's how he and I became close. I lost my mom in 2007 and I had to be the rock for the family. You know, my dad was miserable, my sorrow, you know, my dad was lost, my sister was hurt, everyone was, but I had to, like, I played a game the next day. You know, I mean, I've always kind of had to be like, no matter who it was, I had to be the rock for everyone else. And it's just like, there was at times where I'm hurt, but it's just like, it won't, I need to release it. So I'm, I'm hoping.

• 56:25Michelle Obama?

  Have you picked people that you can let go with? I'm getting back to the question of relationships and Steven, you hadn't said a word.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  I'm ready to answer, I just don't want to interrupt the flow.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Well, with me, I just, I made a lot of mistakes. I've always held myself accountable.

• 56:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Um, that's my biggest thing. But one thing I've always did, I've always kept my heart in my, in the right place. And I've always lived my life to show God I deserve everything he blessed me with. So I have a big heart.

• 56:51Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  So even when people do me bad, if I was done bad in relationships, I've always did what I was supposed to do to make sure the other person, you know, was, was taken care of, was right. So I don't feel bad about any situation I've been in because I've always left that person better leaving me than when they, when they came with me. So, um, just experiencing me being accountable. I held myself accountable for everything, so I don't, I don't regret anything, you know? I've, I've done what I was supposed to do. I've, I've been a father, I've been a friend, I've been the guy when I was treated like crap and still stood up and provided for people when they didn't deserve it.

• 57:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  So, um, it's just being able to look yourself in the mirror, you know, good or bad. Um, I've, I've been one of those guys, I came up with a saying, I make love to pressure.

• 57:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  So, um, nothing, nothing will make me become a bad person, become a bad human being. My heart is always in the right place, so I think that's how I handle every situation.

• 57:52Craig Robinson?

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• 58:32Craig Robinson?

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• 59:02Craig Robinson?

  You know, this time of year reminds me of growing up on the South Side of Chicago with my sister Michelle and the comfort meals we would eat during the fall. You know, when the big fall recipes start coming out, you also have to worry about the mess they make. But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called Mill. You just drop in those apple cores and pumpkin peels, the dinner scraps, and Mill automatically transforms them overnight. It's completely odorless and no fruit flies. Mill holds weeks of food scraps and turns them into these nutrient-rich grounds, and

• 59:45Craig Robinson?

  I love being able to work them right into our soil. Knowing that the food I couldn't eat is now helping our plants grow is such a satisfying feeling. But you have to live with Mill to really get it. Good thing is that you can try it risk-free and get $75 off at mill.com/imo. That's mill.com/imo.

• 1:00:18Michelle Obama?

  And you both are really powerful examples of building a life beyond a very long, prosperous, successful set of careers. Talk about how, you know, you even, you know, are able to wrap your heads around some, the next level of success without holding on too much to not being able to think, to do the thing that made you you. And that's a whole mental challenge right there, you know? We see it. We see people not being able to walk away from their sport, not because they haven't achieved everything, but it almost feels like you're scared.

• 1:01:00Michelle Obama?

  You haven't thought as much, as great as you are, it is clear that you haven't thought about anything, what's next. You guys have managed that pretty doggone well.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  I think for me, I took pride in being a team player while I was playing. So after basketball, you know, you never know what's gonna happen or what's gonna go. But I think for me, being a solid guy, being a good friend to a lot of different people, good things happen for you.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  I had no idea what was gonna happen after basketball, to be honest, no idea. But I think, like I said, my relationship with Matt and just, and building, just having the opportunity of the podcast has taken us to spaces that I never even believed. So for me, good things always happen to me because I wake up every day to show God I deserve what you, whatever is coming in my life, I'm getting ready for it. Yeah. I'm not waiting till my blessing come, I'm getting ready for it. I live my life that way. And he'll tell you, I'm the biggest protector out of all our friends. I jump in front of everything for everybody. I'm loyal to a fault. But God continues to bless me because I love hard and I love my people hard. So the only reason I'm in this position is because I'm a good teammate. I have a great team around me. I would never take credit for where I'm at in my life today and the success we have.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  And I got a great team and a great group of people that we treat each other like family and we respect each other. If you can't be a good teammate, if you can't learn how to respect people and treat people how you want to be treated, you're not gonna have any success, especially as a basketball player. Because after basketball, they already coming to you with expecting you to know everything and off your name. Well, a lot of us don't know anything but basketball.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  Um, I, I don't know. I, I could just, my, my journey's been crazy fun. Um, because, I mean, I think there was such a, not a misconception, because I think I have a reputation to earn, whether good or bad, and I had a borderline reputation. I was a virtual line stepper in the NBA. But I was also at the same time, understanding that this isn't gonna last forever. I just look at myself as being so lucky that I played 14 years, got paid for 16 years to put a ball in a hoop. That's a dream. Like, you wanna call that a job? To me, that's a dream. And then now I'm getting paid great money to talk and inspire and motivate and educate and talk trash and have fun. So to me, like, I don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life. You know what I mean?

• 1:03:21Craig Robinson?

  I, I, I love hearing that. And, and you know, we have a question from our listener. But before we get to the question, I would love it if you would talk to our listeners about what's really good about the NBA, but also what's really hard about it.

• 1:03:41Craig Robinson?

  Because I don't think, I don't hear people talking about it.

• 1:03:44Michelle Obama?

  Anything. It's, it sounds like wonderful fantasy.

• 1:03:46Craig Robinson?

  It always sounds like a wonderful thing, but having now worked in the front office of a couple of teams, I've seen behind the curtain, and I would love for you to share your thoughts on what's really, really hard about it.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  I'll just say two things. Two, I mean, one, everybody don't know how to be a professional. You have to learn. It's not just about basketball. Once you get there, I was blessed to have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, all those guys, my, in my early years, because I learned how to be a professional. I watched these guys. A lot of these kids have no, there's no vets in the game. So then I taught how to be a professional. For me, that's really it.

• 1:04:24Craig Robinson?

  And being a professional.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  And the politics side.

• 1:04:26Craig Robinson?

  On and off the court.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you gotta learn how to deal with the politics too. It's a lot of times I should have made the All-Star Games. I didn't make it because of a guy who wasn't in trouble. He wasn't better than me, but he just wasn't in trouble. And he made it. So you gotta learn how to deal with the politics too in NBA. That's a big part of it.

• 1:04:40Speaker 03

  Just know, first and foremost, it's a business. And you're very lucky to be a part of that business. And you've got to keep the first thing first. And I give professional athletes today a lot of credit, and not that we're, I mean, I'm eight years removed, but in those eight years, the game has changed so much and the world has changed so much. Like, there's so much outside distraction now.

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  There's some media part of it.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  On top of the money, these kids are getting, I mean, these kids are getting, they're making eighty million dollars a year just from this, on top of all the, you know what I mean? So it's just like, it's, it's kind of just understanding, keeping the first thing first, knowing that it's a business, knowing that, you know, the average NBA career is three and a half years. You know what I mean? So what's going to set you apart? And I said earlier, when you get there, it's 10% physical and 90% mental. So how are you carrying yourself? And understanding now from the second, we had, I couldn't imagine if I had cameras on me at UCLA, I probably wouldn't be here. Or, or even early in my career, because we were just off the chain. We didn't know until we got around vets. And now the game, the NBA desperately, and I'm sure a lot of sports, it's getting younger and younger. So it's not the blind, but almost the blind, lean the blind. When we came in the league, there

• 1:05:42Speaker 03

  was thirty-eight, thirty-nine, forty-year-olds smoking cigarettes in the locker room, but just, hey, this is, this is, let's go buy your first sets of suits, you know? Let's stay away from them, those women, you know? Not waste your money on, there's, there's none of that in the game anymore. So I mean, what there's so much given, a lot is, a lot is, is, is expected. And just, you gotta keep the first thing first in today's because there's just so many people with the money and with the exposure now of athletes. There's so many different distractions and so many people grabbing at you. But when it's gone, it's gone, you know, when it's gone, it's gone. So understand it and to enjoy the journey. I know as athletes, we're always next guy. We lost last night or I had 30 last night, but tonight we play. Enjoy the ride because the ride goes so fast. And if you don't, if you don't sit back and appreciate the ups and downs, the goods and bads while you're there.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  When you're done, you're going to be like, damn, I wish I would have, I wish I would have, I wish I would have. So the business, keep the first thing first and enjoy the journey.

• 1:06:35Craig Robinson?

  So we've got a question from Tony in New York.

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  What's up, Tony?

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  I grew up with humble beginnings in Baltimore. And today I find myself in a very different place. I'm successful, married and raising a mixed race child in suburbia. As a black father, I carry the weight of my own lived experiences. I often find myself wrestling with how much of that to pass on to my son. Recently, his daycare flagged him for aggressive behavior and it hit a nerve. I want to raise a strong, confident black boy who understands his value. But I also know that the world doesn't always give our children the benefit of the doubt. I feel a tension between wanting to protect him by teaching him restraint and caution

• 1:07:25Speaker 05

  and not wanting to suppress his autonomy or spirit in the process. So my question is, how do you raise a child in a new reality without letting your old reality shape too much of their world? Like, how do you guide them with wisdom born of struggle without projecting your fears that may no longer serve them?

• 1:07:49Michelle Obama?

  Ooh, Tony.

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  Great question, Tony. And I can tell by the way that, that, that's my favorite group. I can tell by the way that, that the question, he wrote the question that he is very aware of just what's going on in there.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Both sides, he's aware of both sides.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  And I would say it, it, being a biracial man, it was different for me because it was, wasn't the norm growing up. But I think now thankfully, uh, there's, the world is becoming more of a melting pot and it's more accepted. And I had the same thoughts as the twins were coming up, like my, they, people tried, KKK tried to kill me. You mean, I had to move and all this kind of stuff. So do I pour that trauma into my kids?

• 1:08:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  Do I not make them aware of it? Do they learn about it? So luckily, we live in a society today where I feel like, you know, uh, what is it, interracial or whatever, biracial children are more, more of the norm. So I just think it's a fine line and, and, and I don't think this is a blatant answer. I think it's a, a situation by situation, um, circumstance where you have to, you know, you take individual situations and break them down, um, because you're gonna come across racism at some point and you don't wanna throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people, but you also want them to be naive and understand like, hey, there are some people that were grown and raised a different way than, that we don't necessarily agree with and they were taught hate instead of love and keep them in their place.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  But I'm also a firm believer like, don't put your hands on me, or don't put your hands on my children.

• 1:09:19Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? I'm, I'm, I'm for peace until you cross that line. So you always have to be able to protect, protect yourself and defend yourself. Um, but hopefully, you know, you teach them the right way to have a broader understanding of what this crazy world is about and they, you know, they approach those situations with, you know, confidence first and foremost and then understanding.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. I, I started something during the George Floyd time, uh, something that says love for all, we have love for all, and I always put every hand, every color emoji. But at the same time, you wanna let, especially a black, a black young man, you wanna let him know who he is, but also let him know that you don't need to demean the next race to make yourself look better. I think that's what a, that's what a lot of races feel like. In order to make yourself look better, you have to demean the next. And that's something we don't do on our show.

• 1:10:02Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  A lot of shows do that. Find something to talk about, demean somebody and try to go viral. We've never done that.

• 1:10:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  So I've always taught that to my kids, like. Know who you are first because once you know who you are, can't nobody knock you off your rocker. Can't nobody make you say something or do something that you'll regret because you know who you are first. Second, understand that people gonna say things, but you never have to demean someone to make yourself look better. I think the world is real caught up in that. I'm gonna make him look bad so I can look better. Nah, I've always taught it to my kids, so I've been grateful too that my kids been growing up a lot around the different races. So they understand. I grew up a lot around the Mexicans. My best friend is Jewish. So Josh Pastner was a coach at UNLV, so I think just the way I live my life, that kinda knocked that stigma off my kids.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  But at the same time, I let them know who they are, cause when you are a young black man, things, whether you understand it or not, you're gonna be treated differently, you're gonna be looked at differently, and a lot is gonna be harder for you than the next. That's just how it is as a black man. That's just how it is. And once they understand that, then they'll be willing to embrace it and don't look at it as starting behind.

• 1:11:06Craig Robinson?

  That's a great point. That mean, so I've got a son who's fully black, older 33, and then I've got two younger sons who are biracial. And I've always thought, and even with my daughter, who's black, talking about, communicating about race early, helping them understand that it's just, life's not fair right now. Wasn't fair when we were coming up, and it's not fair now. It's better now, but it's not fair. You're gonna be looked upon a certain way because you're black. And, and I think having that discussion early helped them prepare for things as they come in,

• 1:11:51Craig Robinson?

  and we just try and talk about it. We try and talk our way through. And to Tony's point, I was always worried about my kids being mislabeled as over aggressive because they were black. And so- We talked about when you're in a, you go into a situation, you have to be aware that some people may think you're over aggressive. And, and that doesn't mean change who you are. But just be aware.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  Read the room.

• 1:12:21Craig Robinson?

  Read the room.

• 1:12:23Craig Robinson?

  Read the room, read the room. Because there are gonna be times, because I, my, my mom always talked about this. She always feels like she made me too non-aggressive and made her over aggressive. And that was the times back in the sixties and seventies. So I don't want them to lose their ability to have a little edge about them. But I also want them to be aware that if you show that edge, you're gonna get profiled.

• 1:12:55Speaker 03

  I just feel, again, I feel like it's an unfortunate situation, but black and brown parents have different conversations than the rest of the world. Because again, as I, I mentioned, like, race is just a part of, hey, this is how you're, this is just another hurdle we're gonna have to hop. You know, this is not a conversation that, you know, unfortunate, white families have to worry about police discrimination and, and people looking at them a certain way. Because it's just not, but so again, that's why when I, when I initially asked the question, you take this in stride as well. This is just another teaching point. And, and, and again, it, it's something that they're gonna face at some point and just make sure they're prepared and ready for it.

• 1:13:30Michelle Obama?

  One other thing I would just add to Tony is, um, and I, how old was his son? Or is his son, did he say? But when it comes to school, um, because that's something we've talked about. You know, schools are, you know, the, the curriculum hasn't been thoughtful in about a hundred thousand years, right? I mean, it, it's not keeping up with the modern child and is definitely not thinking about who boys are. So a lot of the curriculum, how the day is structured, doesn't work for boys. You know, boys need to be moving, thinking, you know, girls are different, right? But everybody is taught the same. And I'm sure that aggressive label at school, which you hear that a lot among,

• 1:14:12Michelle Obama?

  uh, you know, schools labeling black kids, kids of color early. That is a dilemma because once you get tracked or marked. Then, you know, so I would say to Tony, then that means that as a parent, you gotta be involved in school, you know?

• 1:14:30Speaker 03

  Show your face.

• 1:14:31Michelle Obama?

  Because you can talk to your kid till they're blue in the face. That that's important, but it is important, especially if you have a black son, for them to know you and to know that I will come up there. And I will come up there in a proper way, but this black boy, mixed boy, has someone looking out for him. And I think that that becomes even more critical for for boys, for mixed race boys, for black boys, that parents, you can love your son, but especially when they're young and they they haven't developed their own voice. You know, that's what being an involved parent is, you know? And for a father to be involved.

• 1:15:13Speaker 03

  Big deal.

• 1:15:14Michelle Obama?

  You know, that's a big deal. So that may mean go to some of these field trips, you know? Go to a make sure you go to all, because Barack went to every parent teacher conference their entire life, in the White House, you name it, he was gonna go. Um, motorcade, motorcycles, swap meet.

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  We're there.

• 1:15:31Michelle Obama?

  Everybody, we were there, shutting down Mass Avenue, getting to this.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  That means a lot, though, by the way. That means a lot.

• 1:15:37Michelle Obama?

  It it means a lot. It meant a lot to the girls, but it said something to the school, you know? It's like, it's not just me, but their father knows what's going on. Um, so you guys are engaged fathers, which is beautiful. Um, being engaged in that school structure, just knowing, you know? That don't mean you wanna have to go up to the school and tear stuff up and it's just like.

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  But I will if I need to.

• 1:16:04Michelle Obama?

  I will, and you and that's implied in my presence.

• 1:16:07Speaker 03

  Yep. You know, one thing I will say.

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  Let me say this right now, I know exactly what you mean. My my daughter's going to sixth grade, but since she's been in kindergarten, I've been going to her school. I put her on Instagram.

• 1:16:16Speaker 03

  Dona Day.

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  Dona Day, they call me Dona Day in school. But I'm not going there to be famous, but I'm letting you know, this child here is loved.

• 1:16:25Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  And her daddy's gonna be here, you know what I mean?

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  And also too, one one more thing, I think. I'm okay with aggression because I think you can learn to tone that back. But I would rather be aggressive than have my child be walked over and disrespected and made fun of. Like I said, we can tune like aggressiveness in sports, we can tune that back. But if you don't have that in you, that's hard to teach. So I'm okay with aggressiveness as long as it's following the rules because that's something you can, you know, you can form and structure and pull back if you need to. But on the flip side, if you're someone that just gets walked over, that's gonna make me go crazy.

• 1:16:58Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, yeah, and that makes me want to address some part of the question that Tony said, that he was worried that he was imposing his lived experience on the kid. And what I would say to Tony, embrace your lived experience because that's gonna help little Tony later in life because it is powerful to know that your parent has gone through something similar and made it out.

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  Experience is the best teacher.

• 1:17:33Craig Robinson?

  It's absolutely, absolutely, and so.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Good question.

• 1:17:38Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  Great question. Shout out to Tony, man.

• 1:17:40Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  Good luck to you and your son, man.

• 1:17:43Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and the fact that he's asking the question means he's involved.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  He cares, yeah.

• 1:17:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, we need more fathers like that. And I think that's, you know, you guys are modeling that. And I mean, I love the way you talk about your kids, how you are, you know, you're not bystander parents, that you are actively thinking about how to raise them. And that is not just, that's not the mother's job exclusively, you know? It really matters and you've seen it in a broken home, we're not divorced or whatever. Kids can understand that. It didn't work out, right? Things don't work out. People don't get along sometimes, you know? But that doesn't mean that you're not present. That doesn't, that doesn't mean you get scared away and money shouldn't dictate that. You know, kids do not care about how much money you have.

• 1:18:30Michelle Obama?

  I don't care if you are unemployed, whether you were in jail once before, whether you were on crack at some point. Kids still want to see you in their lives just trying, you know, and I think that you guys model that in the way that you are actively trying to think about the words you say, how you show up in your kids' lives. And I think it's important for our listeners to, to see that up close from some all the smoke athletes, folks who could tell like they're still be engaged in sports, still know a lot about a lot of things and still show up as good men and good fathers. So we are grateful.

• 1:19:10Craig Robinson?

  Keep doing what you're doing, guys. Thank you. You got a couple of fans here.

• 1:19:13Michelle Obama?

  Thank you for taking the time.

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're honored to be here.

• 1:19:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Craig Robinson?

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