I’m Not Disappearing - A Candid Conversation About Aging

On this very special episode of The Look, a table of legends joins the show to talk about aging. Actress and activist Jane Fonda, former model and activist Bethann Hardison, and designer and businesswoman Jenna Lyons join Michelle Obama to discuss what it means to get old: to not just physically evolve, but also to come closer to our own purpose with age. Plus, they share their surprising advice about love. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So I never dated, you know, like we just.

• 0:02Michelle Obama?

  You got a boyfriend now?

• 0:04Speaker 00

  I have people who take care of me in very nice way.

• 0:07Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay, people. Have you ever been on an app?

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Never.

• 0:12Michelle Obama?

  Never.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm too cool for that.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  If she's never gonna have a date, she's definitely not gonna be on it.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  I'm too cool for that.

• 0:17Michelle Obama?

  So when you say they take care of you.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:21Michelle Obama?

  You got your Wednesday dude, you got your Saturday dude.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  Different places in the world.

• 0:25Michelle Obama?

  Oh, oh, oh, yes.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  It's a little bit better to be in different places in the world.

• 0:34Michelle Obama?

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance and Saravie.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO. The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Jenna Lyons, designer and entrepreneur, and I'm here with a table of legends. We have Beth Ann Hardison, a former fashion model, modeling agent, and activist known for her groundbreaking work in the fashion space. And Jane Fonda, Academy Award winning actress and activist. And of course, needing no introduction, Michelle Obama. Thank you all for being here and thank you for having me. Today, we're going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging in the public eye. But we're also going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging, period. How do we find our purpose as we age?

• 1:25Speaker 02

  So to get started, I'd like to get a sense of what aging has been like for all of you.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  We're gonna start with you, Michelle.

• 1:32Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my goodness, the baby of the crew.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  She's not started yet.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  That's fair. I agree.

• 1:41Michelle Obama?

  You think I haven't started aging yet?

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Not really, no.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  She hasn't. I mean, I happen to have been here at her 50th birthday party and literally you look exactly the same.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  But that's not aging. It's not what you look like, it's what you feel like.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's an interesting point because I think that being younger, that's what I thought. I thought the Golden Girls was aging and I didn't understand that aging can look very different. So I'm curious, when you were younger, what did you think aging would look like and what were you scared of?

• 2:05Michelle Obama?

  You know, it was who your grandparents were. And what a, and I'm doing the counting now. I'm trying to remember, how old were my grandparents when I thought they were old? And they were fifty, in their late 50s and 60s.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25Michelle Obama?

  And as black people, working-class black people, people died in their 70s. I had a great-grandmother that lived until she was 83. My paternal grandmother lived into her 80s. But my other grandparents died in their 70s. And that wasn't an unusual thing. So I thought aging, if I were to think, I would think that by the time I am my age now, and I am, you guys, 62, am I 62? Everyone, help me. I'm 61. Okay, I'm sorry.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  64, I was on my second husband.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 3:05Michelle Obama?

  But if I were to think of then, what 61 was, 61 would be my grandparents.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:12Michelle Obama?

  And and I know that that's, and they were old. I mean, because back then, people, people let themselves age. I mean, it was sort of like, people just said, okay, that's it. I'm old, I'm through trying to worry about getting dressed and what I look like. People were retiring, you know. I mean, it just seemed like aging was off a cliff.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Well, and I think society sort of made you feel like, once you were a certain age, you were kind of not as relevant. I'm curious, Jane, what was it like for you? What were you worried about when you were younger, about getting older?

• 3:47Speaker 03

  I didn't think I'd live past 30. I was sure I was gonna die. My mother died when I was 12.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  My youth was not especially happy. And I thought I was gonna die, I'm not addictive, but I thought I was gonna die from drugs and loneliness. So the fact that I'm almost 88 is astonishing to me. And what is even more astonishing is that I, I'm better now than I, I wouldn't go back for anything. I'm, I feel more centered, more whole, more complete. I'm very happy, single.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're a fan. I'm a fan of you.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  How about for you, about then?

• 4:32Speaker 00

  I think, I think just recently, I've begun to notice that there's a change in time in my body, but my mind and my spirit continues. I have no problem telling people what I think, but I don't think I ever did have that problem. And I also love the idea that I'm loved by others. You still have men in your life, but you have your freedom to be independent.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  And I just love being older because people jump to help you. And I love being older because I don't act like it.

• 5:09Michelle Obama?

  You sure don't.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  This is very true. Were you afraid of getting older when you were younger?

• 5:14Speaker 00

  No, I never, I never even imagined that. Like, like Jane said, I thought I wasn't going to live past the age 26. And I went when they gave me my 26th birthday party. I was supposed to be, you know, like a party of celebrating me. And I just stood outside scared to go in because I couldn't believe it was happening. But truth, it wasn't out of some other fear, it just was a thought, you know? I was a cool kid, but it was just something like that. And now it just don't seem to stop. My life doesn't stop. I'm always going and doing and, you know, still trying to change something or fix something or help something. Even though I still want to be just in a hammock with a tequila.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I'm curious, was there, now that you've gotten older and you're feeling beautiful, as you all seem to be really in your body, was there a moment where you sort of stopped worrying or sort of stopped thinking about, oh, I have another gray hair, I have another wrinkle? Did it ever just stop? I'm looking at you, Jane.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  I don't, I've, I've never been afraid of aging. And I'm, more importantly, I'm not afraid of dying. But I'm, the most important thing I did was when I, I was going to turn 60. And in my mind, first 30 years, second 30 years, this is the beginning of my final act. And I didn't know how to live it.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  And so I thought, well, what, what am I most afraid of? I'm not afraid, I'm afraid of dying with a lot of regrets. I watched my dad die with a lot of regrets.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  That was an important realization for me because if you don't want to die with regrets, then you have to live the last part of your life in such a way that there won't be any regrets. Yeah. I also want to be surrounded by people who love me. Uh oh, then I have to, forgiveness comes into play, including forgiving myself. You know, you, so, and that, that actually has guided me in the last 30 years. I've been living to not have regrets.

• 7:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting, Jane, that you say that because I've been talking about this phase of my life because I'm trying to be more conscious, conscious about it because, and I think it disturbs some of the young people in my life when I talk about the, this, perhaps the last chapter, you know, if I think 60, because I am trying to be mindful. It's 60 and on. And if, if I'm lucky to live to, to the age that you guys are, we're still talking about 25 more summers, 27, maybe 30 if we're lucky.

• 7:52Michelle Obama?

  When I say that, the horror that comes over the faces of, of young people.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Young people, yeah.

• 7:58Michelle Obama?

  And I'm, I'm saying, I'm, I'm not, you know, I, I'm not regretful. I, I just, I, I know how fast time goes. Like, the, we, we will have almost been 10 years out of the White House, a decade. We were in the, we were in the White House.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Doesn't seem so.

• 8:15Michelle Obama?

  It doesn't seem so, but that 10 years flew. And in it, I, yes, I wrote two books and my husband wrote a book and we campaigned for people and we.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Made movies.

• 8:28Michelle Obama?

  We made movies. So much happened. It was like post the White House, having had eight years of a big, huge life of impact. There was still 10 and it happened like that. So I just told myself, like, I so love life that I want to be mindful of the time that I have.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:48Michelle Obama?

  Because if you don't acknowledge that we, at 60, we do have maybe one more chapter, then it starts slipping away. I want time to slow down.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  So you know, it's interesting. As you speak, you actually have been thinking about this like a, like a novel. You've really been really thinking it out. And there's something that Jane said I heard some time ago that always makes me repeat it. She said, you know, you don't feel old as long as you're healthy.

• 9:13Michelle Obama?

  So true.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  You remember saying that?

• 9:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that old age is fantastic.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:20Michelle Obama?

  If it's lived intentionally. Intentionality is the key.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:24Michelle Obama?

  Really thinking about it.

• 9:27Michelle Obama?

  Oh, God, this happens to me all the time. I start a sentence.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Welcome to the world.

• 9:32Michelle Obama?

  What was I saying?

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Welcome, welcome, welcome. Why should I be alone?

• 9:37Michelle Obama?

  I don't remember. What was it that you?

• 9:39Speaker 00

  No, but I was saying that what you've said, and I keep this in mind.

• 9:41Michelle Obama?

  Healthy.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Yes. If you, you don't feel old as long as you're healthy.

• 9:45Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  If you're healthy, you don't feel old. But I am someone who was raised to believe in death. So between my grandmother.

• 9:51Michelle Obama?

  What does that mean, believe in death?

• 9:52Speaker 00

  I'll tell you. That my grandmother always said to me when I was eight, nine years old. I said, what do you think? What's life going to be like? And her name, Mama Carrie, I used to call her. And she'd say, I don't know, but for sure you're gonna die. She'd tell you straight up. I went to live with my father at 12, and he's an Islamic Imam, leader. And he would say to me also, they, you know, you know, they, they live to die. They prepare their body, their world to die. You know, that's what could go to paradise. So you come up in two different backgrounds of people who really talk about death. So like when you're saying earlier about young people hate to hear you talking about like the journey and the end. And I'm all about that.

• 10:32Michelle Obama?

  And my mother, my mother was like that. I mean, I joke that my mother was preparing us for her death when we were 10.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:39Michelle Obama?

  And I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, my, my, because my mother, and she, her philosophy of raising children, first of all, is like, first of, first of all, I'm raising you for me. I'm raising you to be an adult and to be able to live independently and have an independent life, which meant that she wanted us to know that we could make it with or without her. And I think she was mentally, and I can see this now as a mother. As a mother, one of the The points of exhaling is when my girls got to the point where I where I knew they would be fine without me.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 11:16Michelle Obama?

  They would miss me.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:17Michelle Obama?

  But that they're OK. They have the lessons in their head. They have common sense. They understand a lot of the basics. They still have a lot to grow. And I tell them this.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:27Michelle Obama?

  This is a relief to me.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:29Michelle Obama?

  That you can take care of yourself, because I see that at my mother. She wanted us to grow up and be ready. So when she died, which was, you know, it was recently.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:40Michelle Obama?

  You know, she would always say, you can be sad, but be sad for a minute.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:46Michelle Obama?

  Because if you're sitting around

• 11:48Speaker 00

  moaning.

• 11:48Michelle Obama?

  moaning and acting like you can't get on, she says, I'm gonna be in my grave really pissed. You know.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  No, I get the same thing what you say when young people hate saying, oh, don't, or people in general. No matter what age, they say, oh, don't talk like that.

• 12:04Michelle Obama?

  It's really interesting.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  It's so ridiculous. I said, come on, we're going. Everyone, no one comes here.

• 12:08Michelle Obama?

  That's the only thing that's guaranteed.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Guaranteed. That's what she would say, my grandma, but for sure.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  It's part of life.

• 12:13Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, light makes sense of dark. Noise makes sense of silence. Death makes sense of life. And if you don't deal with it, you're not really living fully, I think.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Listening to all of you talk, you're all talking about the cerebral part, the healthy part, the emotional part of aging. And it's really interesting, because I think when I was younger, I was scared of, I'm gonna fall apart, basically. Like, that's what I, I was sort of bred to think that way. And listening to you talk, it's actually very, it's very encouraging. Very inspiring. I'm thrilled to be hearing this. Michelle, you previously talked about how society has unrealistic expectations on what it means to age gracefully, and how there's still an expectation to preserve your youthful appearance, which is a little bit of what I'm talking about. What are some of the ways you've pushed back against that messaging after hearing that?

• 12:58Michelle Obama?

  You know, I agree with you both that health is the key. I mean, I am, I work out. I think about what I eat. Don't get me, I dye my hair. I, you know, I do care about the physical. But a lot of it is because I, I, I think we also have to have a healthy baseline in order to know when something is wrong. So I think, you know, we have to sort of maintain a baseline of health where you're not bloated and you're not constipated and, you know, things are regular and you, you know what Hale and Hardy feels like. Because some of the first signs of illness come from fatigue, you know?

• 13:42Michelle Obama?

  Well, how do you know that there's something wrong if you're always fatigued?

• 13:46Speaker 00

  I think I could be something wrong and I'll just be running anyway. I need to slow down, but I can't.

• 13:52Michelle Obama?

  Well, you know what?

• 13:53Speaker 00

  But it's not meant to be, right?

• 13:54Michelle Obama?

  But whatever you're doing, Beth Ann, is, is working.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:58Michelle Obama?

  Right?

• 13:58Speaker 00

  It does work with the spirit.

• 13:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. But I, but I think baseline health is, is always important. That's, that's first and foremost.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Look how so many people really work hard at being healthy and they still die. Or they still get sick.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  We all die.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  But I mean, still get sick.

• 14:17Michelle Obama?

  Well, there are things that you

• 14:18Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? There's some things you can do, you can do. It's just how your body works, your chromosomes, how they all work together, fit. You just never know. I mean, some people, you know, like they said, well, my grandmother smoked and drank until she was 94, you know, things like that. But we do need to make an effort.

• 14:40Craig Robinson?

  This segment is brought to you by CeraVe, the number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand, developed with dermatologists to help you feel comfortable in your own skin. Hey, Mish, what do you think being comfortable in your own skin means?

• 14:58Michelle Obama?

  Well, for me, it means feeling good inside and out. And it's not just what I'm wearing, but it's how I'm feeling. It's about, you know, little things about, you know, you know, in our family, not being ashy.

• 15:15Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 15:15Michelle Obama?

  Is an important part of feeling good. You know, so taking care of myself, you know, the lotioning my skin, you know, working out at the gym. You know, that's, to me, what feeling good in my own skin means.

• 15:32Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, I, I, I, I hear you on sort of the moisturizing and keeping yourself well-prepared.

• 15:38Michelle Obama?

  The self-care.

• 15:39Craig Robinson?

  Self-care. But you know, when I think about being in my own skin, I reckon back to when mom used to say, "You don't need to worry about people who are outside this house. You should feel comfortable in your own skin," which made me feel confident and assured when I went outside that no matter what somebody said to me, I always felt comfortable.

• 16:05Michelle Obama?

  But it also helped you not being ashy.

• 16:09Craig Robinson?

  And speaking of not being ashy and taking care of your skin, a big thanks to CeraVe for supporting this conversation. CeraVe's new intensive body moisturizer line, which comes as a lotion and cream, has been helping a lot of people find the same kind of comfort in their skin. It's rich, creamy, and made with hydrourea, three essential ceramides, and shea butter to deliver 72 hours of hydration and 99% itch relief while strengthening your skin barrier. CeraVe is developed with dermatologists and the number one dermatologist-recommended skincare brand.

• 16:54Craig Robinson?

  Thanks again to CeraVe for being a champion of healthy and comfortable skin for all. We all feel our best when we're comfortable in our own skin. CeraVe helps you get there. Learn more at cerave.com.

• 17:15Michelle Obama?

  And it's all about balance for that very reason. You know, it's like if you, if you're working out so hard that you can't enjoy life.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:24Michelle Obama?

  Right. Barack and I went out to dinner last night and, you know, we were at a restaurant and the guy said, are there any dietary restrictions? And Barack is like, I don't believe in dietary restrictions, especially when you're eating out. I mean, my, in my opinion, you know, you shouldn't eat out and be worried about what you're gonna eat, you know? These are the times that you should enjoy everything and take everything in. So while we're both very healthy, there's also the balance of, well, we gotta find joy in it, right? Because we don't know.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. I have a theory that, you know, I'm controversial and I'm an activist and I've been very unpopular.

• 18:00Michelle Obama?

  No.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  I'm popular right now. It probably won't last. But I think that it's important for somebody like me who's an activist to show that I can also look good and that I'm still hireable. You know, it encourages the young ones to not be so afraid.

• 18:19Michelle Obama?

  Afraid of it.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  That's true. I mean, I am curious, because this, I'm a tall girl and I'm just wondering how being taller affected your styling choices and when it comes to aesthetics and things like heels.

• 18:31Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my gosh, you know, it was different at different ages. You know, when I was younger, being tall was like, oh, my God.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Terrible boys.

• 18:39Michelle Obama?

  They're short and the clothes, we, there weren't tall sizes. There weren't long inseams. So life was this, you know, pushing up the sleeve and stretching the pant leg down so that you weren't flooding. It was just a nightmare, right? But now, oh, now that I.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Glamorous.

• 19:00Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my God, I love my height. I love a four inch heel as long as I'm just walking from here to there. You know, that's all I do. It's like I can walk from backstage to a chair to stand up.

• 19:11Speaker 03

  So you're like, so you're like the four year old in your, your mother's shoes?

• 19:14Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 19:14Speaker 03

  When you get the heels? That's how it is for me now.

• 19:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  I love the silhouette of a heel, the way it makes your foot.

• 19:22Michelle Obama?

  Look, but I like a kitten heel because I'm also, I don't want to be that uncomfortable. So now it's, I feel like I completely own all of me. My height, my, all of it. And fortunately, I have a, I have a tall husband, but I have, also have a husband who doesn't mind when I'm right eye to eye with him because I've got a heel on. He's like, okay, we're gonna be tall tonight. And I say, yes, we are. And it helps, right? Because my partner loves every inch of me. So that, so that helps.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Was there ever an outfit that you look back on and were like, oh, my God, that was my absolute flop?

• 20:00Michelle Obama?

  What?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Is there an outfit that you can think of that was a total flop?

• 20:03Speaker 00

  That you made a mistake.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  Hundreds. I mean, I never, you know, this is where my connection to, to how I looked changed. I was making on Golden Pond with my father and, and Henry Fonda and Katharine Hepburn. And one of the early days, and I was standing, we were just about to start and I was looking in a mirror to fix my hair. And she came up, Katharine Hepburn came up behind me. And she took my cheek like this and she said, this is your box. This is how you present. What do you want it to say?

• 20:38Speaker 03

  I didn't know what she was talking about.

• 20:40Michelle Obama?

  What did I do wrong?

• 20:42Speaker 03

  It took me years of lying in bed thinking, what did she mean? And then I realized what she was saying. You gotta, see, I always thought that being self-conscious was bad. But what she was telling me is be conscious of how you are presenting yourself to the world. Of course, nobody was as conscious of how she presented as Katharine Hepburn, right? She had a look and presented herself, but it really made me think. And so I started to, to pay attention to what I wore and how I looked and my hair. I hadn't before. And she didn't like that about me. So she really taught me a lot there.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  I would never have thought Katharine Hepburn would have been the one. She seemed like that wasn't something that was so present for her.

• 21:22Michelle Obama?

  But she wasn't a fashion person.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  That's what I mean. It wasn't, it's, no, she had a look.

• 21:26Michelle Obama?

  Right. She was more bohemian than anything. And bohemianism is much more interesting than. Yeah. She just felt like you were just not thinking at all.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  I wasn't thinking at all about it. Come on, fun.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Represent.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  What does fashion mean for you today? And this is a question for all of you. So you all get to answer this one. I'll start with you, Beth Ann.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Well, you're asking the wrong person because I'm not a big fan of fashion.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Well, that's, I think that's an important question to answer because you come from that world and you know the world well.

• 21:56Michelle Obama?

  I mean, you don't like, like you, you know, Comme des Garçons. I mean, so.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  And I also, and I'm always also always in Gucci. As you see me go out now mostly, right? That's true because I work in as a consultant to the brand.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Which era of Gucci are we talking about?

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Right now, but I think in the end of the day, what was the question again?

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Your relation to fashion today.

• 22:22Michelle Obama?

  Oh, look at you.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  She's listening.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, so now I think it really is, yeah, I'm more concerned in helping others. I'm more, much more interested in helping designers and creative people. And we do have a community, the designers hub and things. I, I really want to help them to get it right, get out of it, don't stay in it, don't hang on to it. It's not what you, it's all it's cracked up to be. Understand that what seems like it's what all the shines is not gold, please, all that, you know, know what you should do and shouldn't. Don't get into it because everybody thinks it's cool.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  I know, Jane, you said that you would stop buying new clothes at one point. And I'm wondering what triggered that moment for you.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Greta Thunberg, the climate activist from Sweden.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, we've all seen images of the, you know, clothes get dumped in the ocean and.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  How much we have.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  It's a problem and, and this, this is, this is Gabriella Hearst. Totally circular, you know, no, the carbon footprint is minimal. So that's what I look for now is recyclable, reused.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  People are really conscious about what they make.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, right.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  So I'm curious, I know as we get older, if we are single, there is, you know, the dating world. And I'm curious if you're, I know you're not in it. Are you in it?

• 23:46Speaker 00

  I have never dated in my life.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Wait, explain that.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Dating is a very funny word.

• 23:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, well, what does that mean?

• 23:52Speaker 00

  That means, you know, you go to a, to a bar and you sit there and you meet somebody or you start going out. I, I don't know, it seemed like every time I ever met somebody, that was my boyfriend. So I never dated, you know, like we just.

• 24:04Michelle Obama?

  You got a boyfriend now?

• 24:05Speaker 00

  I have people who take care of me in very nice way.

• 24:08Michelle Obama?

  People, okay.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:11Michelle Obama?

  Okay, people.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Have you ever been on an app?

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Never, no, I'm too cool for that.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  If she's never been on a date, she's definitely not gonna be on it.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  I'm too cool for that.

• 24:19Michelle Obama?

  So when you say they take care of you, what do you mean?

• 24:21Speaker 00

  You know, you know, you have people who love you.

• 24:23Michelle Obama?

  You got your Wednesday dude, you got your Saturday dude.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  No, in different places in the world.

• 24:26Michelle Obama?

  Oh, oh, oh, yes.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  It's a little bit better to be in different places in the world.

• 24:31Michelle Obama?

  Yes, wow. Are we outing you? Do they know about each other?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Where do we, where do you meet them? Like, do you, like, you care?

• 24:39Speaker 00

  They're not going anywhere.

• 24:40Michelle Obama?

  Where do you meet?

• 24:41Speaker 00

  I mean, they're just, you know, you, you meet them when you go into a place in the world.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  And someone may introduce you to someone, but I, you know, Mexico, you know, and other places too. You have people who you, I just believe that women who, who are alone, who profess to being lonely, they have such prerequisites of who they would date. And I think they should just let somebody who wants to come along and take care of them, love them, care for them. It doesn't even have to be sexual. It could just be the intimacy that we talk about. You said a fear. Intimacy is such an important thing, and it doesn't have to be sexual. The fact that you could have that. And so many people say, well, he's too young. Why? Are you gonna marry him? Why is he too young? If he wants to be with you, enjoy him, or her.

• 25:26Michelle Obama?

  I like that.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, they ain't my age. I would go out with somebody who is my age, but I can't.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Do you have an age limit, like a cutoff?

• 25:33Speaker 00

  No limits.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Interesting, okay.

• 25:35Michelle Obama?

  No, I, I don't date, I, I get married.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  You've done that well.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Great marriages.

• 25:45Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, really interesting marriages. I'm really grateful, but, um,

• 25:51Michelle Obama?

  I don't feel the need to date. Nobody asks me anyway, so.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  I don't feel the need to date either. My girlfriends are the world to me. They make me braver. They make me laugh. You know, women friends are very different than male friends.

• 26:07Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Male friends sit next to each other, looking out at things. Girls, women, cars, sports. Women, look at each other.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  So true.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  And they're not afraid to ask for help. Boy, I need, give me a hug. What should I be doing now? We're not afraid to be vulnerable with each other.

• 26:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  It feeds our soul, even if, I don't know, we've been apart for years. When we get back together, soul level, right away, drill right down.

• 26:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you're destined for that.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  That's how we, that's why I think was one of the main reasons why we live longer.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  But then, this one is for you. What kind of anti-aging pressures do you see in the fashion industry?

• 26:45Michelle Obama?

  Help lead me with that, because I don't understand.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  I'm just curious, like, the fashion industry is notoriously one for, like, you are in and then you're out. You don't necessarily have a long career. I know I felt that in my own career, that I was going to age out of the industry. And I was wondering if you felt that.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Never.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Really?

• 27:00Speaker 00

  No, I, it's interesting.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  But did you feel it externally, people facing it towards you, meaning maybe you didn't think that way? But did you feel any?

• 27:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 27:07Michelle Obama?

  Beth Ann's special. Beth Ann is so special. She's such a special.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  I'm gangsta when I do, so I don't think anything that, and the idea really, truly, I never thought about that. You know, because even when I had dreadlocks, and that was many, many years ago.

• 27:22Michelle Obama?

  Before dreadlocks were in.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Before they were in. People would say, "Did you get any pushback?" No, no, I mean, I guess.

• 27:30Michelle Obama?

  I don't think you'd notice pushback if it pushed you in the face. I think you'd look and go, "What's your problem?"

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Some things, you know, some things you could see. But absolutely, you're great about, and I think when you work in a corporation, you gotta, you'll be conscious of that. Because you worked in a corporation.

• 27:46Michelle Obama?

  Yep.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  And in my world, you know, we're like flying by the seat of our pants. I had a model agency. I'm doing things I really shouldn't do, don't want to do. In the end of the day, you know, you're coming hardcore and people's cheering you on. I never even thought about that. Now I see myself in pictures and I see the difference of how I look when I, people say you still look the same. You know, I don't. I look at this picture and look at that picture. I'm fucking 40 years old.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  And I feel bad about that, but it doesn't stop me or make me feel like, oh no, I can't go forth.

• 28:18Michelle Obama?

  But I think what you say, Beth Ann, to get to your point, Jenna, is that, yeah, there is crazy pressure that we're not supposed to evolve, you know, and men have a different kind of pressure.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 28:32Michelle Obama?

  You know, just look at our leaders, look at the, you know, I mean.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  What's allowed.

• 28:39Michelle Obama?

  Jane said, as an activist, she feels like she has to show up looking good, right? I don't, I don't think you'd hear a male activist saying that.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  Absolutely not. I don't think they could think it, but they probably, they couldn't say it out loud because they don't have that intellect to say it out loud, but they'd probably look it.

• 28:56Michelle Obama?

  But I don't think they think it. I, I don't think they, I, I think that there are.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  If you're a real activist.

• 29:01Michelle Obama?

  I think there are many ways physically for men to look powerful and be desirable. I think, you know, I, I think there, there's a wide spectrum. Now, I do think that men have a limit on, on what being a man is, and I think that that's a shame. That's a burden, you know, on men, that there's still three ways you can be. You have to be competitive, you have to be tough.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  You can't cry, you can't show your emotions, ask for help.

• 29:28Michelle Obama?

  So I think emotionally, they're limited, but physically, it's the world.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  For sure. There's no question. I'm, I'm curious for you, Jane, because obviously your industry is very challenging in terms of what you were saying. Michelle, like the standards of beauty for women in your industry are very different than here for men. I mean, the number of times I've seen a man who's much older and his girlfriend or wife looks like she's 20 years younger. I mean, have, do you feel like it's changed? Do you feel like it's getting better? Do you feel like it's still the same?

• 29:56Speaker 00

  No, I'm sorry, that look. All I heard was younger. That's all I heard in the whole conversation.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  It's hard. Yeah, I'm not sure that it's.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  You know, as I'm saying I'm not sure it's getting better, I'm seeing Helen Mirren. You know, I'm seeing me. I'm seeing older women who are still taking leading roles. And I think that's really good. I just came back from Paris. I walked the

• 30:21Michelle Obama?

  I saw that.

• 30:22Speaker 03

  The défilé for L'Oréal. I've been working for, I'm the oldest living skincare ambassador in the world. And they still, and me and Helen Mirren.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Because they know they have a market that's there.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  There's no doubt.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  But I really appreciate that.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  I do too.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  That they recognize that.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  Yes, I do too. Very much so.

• 30:39Michelle Obama?

  But that's new. I mean, that's recent, right?

• 30:42Speaker 03

  Definitely recent.

• 30:43Michelle Obama?

  And it's recent in the apparel fashion industry, what we want to call it. Because, you know, we see it on the runway. We see it in commercials. You know, all sizes now.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  That's definitely the last 10.

• 31:00Michelle Obama?

  Advertising agencies.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  The assumption is hurting the all sizes, I'm not gonna lie. That one we are seeing rollback, for sure. But I think the diversity in age has gotten better.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Go ahead, question.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  You all have experienced the media scrutinizing your bodies over the years. And how did that affect your, how you viewed your own body? And how does that affect your current confidence?

• 31:20Speaker 03

  I was made to feel fat when I was little. And very much objectified by my parents. Well, my mom was dead, but my dad, he was a good person, but it was just a problem, you know?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  And it came from your father?

• 31:32Speaker 03

  Your bathing suit is too big, you know, small. You got, don't, don't wear

• 31:37Speaker 00

  He didn't know.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Too short. I don't know. He was always critical of my physical being. And so I had body dysmorphia most of my life. And suffered from eating disorders. So it's been a battle for me. And at almost 88, I'm happy to say, I don't give a flying fuzzy rat's ass. I want to look good enough that I can get work. But I'm not worried about it anymore. If I was married to a man, I'm, it's still ingrained in me, you know? I grew up in the 40s and 50s. I would have a problem, but I'm single, so I don't care.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Well, I will say that your workout video was one of my favorite.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  It was a hit.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  It was kind of game changing.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  It was.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Because it really was anything that was designed for women. And I was so inspired. I loved it. It was one of my favorite things.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  It was all done to raise money for the campaign for economic democracy.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  And all with the advocates.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  I did not know that. Well, it was very influential for a lot of young women, myself included.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  I was surprised at how, what an effect it had. It was, it was great.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Yes, it's true. It's cultural.

• 32:45Craig Robinson?

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• 34:11Craig Robinson?

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• 37:53Craig Robinson?

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• 38:14Speaker 02

  That then, this one is for you. When you started out in the modeling world, you were so often the first or the only black woman in many spaces. What was it like for you to navigate the fashion world at that time? And how did that shape you?

• 38:25Speaker 00

  I kept thinking about...

• 38:30Speaker 00

  I kept thinking about representing. I think I was think... Yeah, thank you. I think I was always thinking about representing. I didn't mind being the only one.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  You didn't?

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Never swept me down because I didn't think that anybody was better than I anyway. But I honestly did think, oh, this is just the beginning.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Where did your confidence come from? I'm curious because it seems so...

• 38:53Speaker 00

  I want to tell you a story. I used to be in a gang.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  A gang gang?

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, back up. What? I used to be in a gang.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  You were a gang banger. Where was this? Cool.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  In Brooklyn. And I think sometimes you often... I tell this to people, they go, are you serious? Yeah, but it wasn't a gang.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I believe it.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know you do. I could tell you. I thought you were going to stroke me through this one again. But no, I was. And I think, you know, even then, I always had confidence. I think I thought I was the last kid as a kid. You know, had to go home, you know, after seven years old, let yourself in the house, blah, blah, blah. Most of my grandmother and my mother worked. But I was on the streets fighting. It's true. Back then, it wasn't like real guns. You got mostly beat up. Maybe someone might have gotten stabbed. That was huge. And this gang was Five Boroughs. And it was one of the best gangs. And so I just sometimes give them a shout out.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  What was your enterprise? Your gang enterprise?

• 39:48Speaker 00

  What's that mean?

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Was it drugs? Was it just...

• 39:50Speaker 00

  No, we didn't have the...

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Were you slinging?

• 39:53Speaker 00

  This was the 50s. Was it territorial? It's territorial. That's all. She understands all these things. You're trying to make me so... I'm just checking. I'm just checking if I remember.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  So it's better if you really remember where you were. I think a lot of it is also, I really always, I started writing the book. And I realized by 12, I had really already been very successful. I did a lot of things on my own. I would tell my mother and grandmother what I was doing next and they'd go, oh my God, that's, what else are you gonna do? And you know, they'd just let me go. So I think I always had, I think people come to earth that have that. I think you too. You came to earth with it. Well, no matter how much you were being oppressed, you were meant to grow. I think you're born resilient. Me too. Yeah. Me too. And it's, it's interesting, because two siblings can be born close together, same parents, and one will be resilient and one won't. Exactly. It's a real mystery.

• 40:48Michelle Obama?

  Well, you do, as a, as a parent, if you have more than one kid, you know, you see it really clearly, that, that nature really does play a role. There is a part of me that always felt like I, I knew certain things about myself really young. You know, like I knew what I knew.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 41:08Michelle Obama?

  And the, the confidence, same thing. My mother would always say, oh, I didn't raise Michelle, she raised herself.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Same, pretty much so.

• 41:16Michelle Obama?

  She always knew certain things, she's just like, I just let her go.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:20Michelle Obama?

  And I'm like, Mom, that's not true. I was listening to you. But when I think of the messages that I told myself, and that's why I, when I talk to young people, I'm, I'm trying to get them to tap into that voice. Because you hear it early in yourself, you know? And I'm trying to tell kids, like, listen to that voice.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's interesting, you're saying that. That's interesting, because that's true. But you don't know that when you're young.

• 41:47Michelle Obama?

  That's the point.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  That's really true.

• 41:48Michelle Obama?

  You don't know. You don't know.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  You don't hear no voice. You just, you know, do it. I didn't have one. I didn't have any. I didn't get a voice until I was in my 60s. I'm telling you, I don't think I got a voice until last week.

• 42:00Michelle Obama?

  What happened?

• 42:01Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 42:01Michelle Obama?

  You were born with a voice.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  No, I really did.

• 42:03Michelle Obama?

  What happened last week? You were in a gang.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  I, last week I started realizing, God damn, my ankles swell just every so often.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  Age, time on earth. No matter how much I'm buzzing around and Fashion Week and coming here and do it. Just little things start coming to you that makes you know, okay, this shit's shifting. Like you said about time and men and you just things. I start to realize, okay. And even though I just had a birthday too. And I hate ever saying how old now. I just let people talk about it. I'm just so mad about it. I really am. I just don't want anybody telling me anymore. So you're 83. I fuck you.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  It pisses me off, but I like being older. The freedom it gives you to be older, right?

• 42:53Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  I know you do.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  Because I know who I am now. I didn't know for a long, long time. And, and I'd like to talk about that because it helps young people who don't know. You know, people are so, it's hard to be young. It's way easier to be older.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, much easier.

• 43:09Michelle Obama?

  I would never go back.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  You don't have, oh, me and the driver were just talking about that. I mean, either. I mean, the point, well, first of all, I had a, I can't bullshit. I had a great growing up years. I had a very good childhood. And I mean, I came up Bethurst, Iverson, Brooklyn, two parents, both female. Then went to live with my dad, who was much more of the intellect and all. I really had a great childhood. I didn't have all the oppressions and things and being hit and so. I don't have any complaint that way. But when you start to write about who you are, you start to learn more of who you are.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  You saying, when you start to write about what was.

• 43:44Michelle Obama?

  Well, the thing that I feel like when, and I, I don't know whether this is unique to women, but it is true for me that it, it wasn't until now that I feel like I can own my wisdom. Like, like the thing I didn't know, I can look back and go, I can look back now and say, that four-year-old person did know something that I wasn't ready or able to claim because I didn't realize it.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Put it in words.

• 44:13Michelle Obama?

  We as women, I just find that we aren't ready to own our wisdom until now. Uh, when we are sure that we've learned the lesson, that when we can look back on a life and actually point to the, the things that have happened to say, oh, that, that actually worked out the way I planned.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  But you don't, wisdom, it's interesting.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  As an older person, I've learned this. Wisdom doesn't come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding.

• 44:42Michelle Obama?

  What they are.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  What they are. And that's why, at a certain point in life, it's so important to really think about your life. You know, when I turned 60, wanting to figure out the last...

• 44:56Speaker 03

  I knew that you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been.

• 45:00Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  And that's when I began to really study myself, like I wasn't me, like I was somebody else, like an archaeologist. And really, and then wisdom came, when I started to really figure it out. It didn't just... You know what I mean? Yes.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  You are so smart.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  What?

• 45:19Speaker 00

  You are... You are... You, to me, have always been one of the smartest women. I mean, really.

• 45:24Michelle Obama?

  You are.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  You're really...

• 45:25Michelle Obama?

  See, you're still not claiming...

• 45:27Speaker 00

  Intentional.

• 45:28Michelle Obama?

  You're still not claiming your wisdom.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  No, but she... You really... I've always thought of you being so smart.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Even with all the mistakes you think you made, I always thought you are so smart. Listening to you now, I mean, the average young person would never think a person, like you said, about how we think of age. When we're kids, we think 50, done. Here you are in your 80s, talking shit that most people aren't expressing.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  My son said the other day, my mother talked... Since I was born, my mother's talked about her death. It's focusing on the end and how you want the... I mean, we could all die tomorrow. We don't know how we're gonna die, but having a vision of how you want it.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  You're so smart.

• 46:06Speaker 03

  And then living to them.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  And you're having... You always being... Your husband always saying how smart you were, how smart you were, how smart... You're so smart. And I never went to college.

• 46:15Michelle Obama?

  But you're so smart, too.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  If I T, that's not college.

• 46:17Michelle Obama?

  I mean, there's all kinds of smart, you know? I mean, because, you know, there are people who are more academically lettered. They accomplish more.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, they don't take the steps.

• 46:30Michelle Obama?

  But there's a combination... Smart is a combination of things.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  There's also, there's IQ and there's EQ. And they're very different.

• 46:36Michelle Obama?

  Exactly.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  And I think, particularly in the corporate world, EQ is often more valuable than IQ.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. I spent a lot of time recently in Louisiana, on the Gulf, Louisiana and Texas, with people who live near LNG terminals. And they're called sacrifice zones. And most of the activists were women. They're so smart.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  Most of them didn't graduate high school.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  But they're the smartest people I know.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  The wisdom they just naturally have.

• 47:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  I'm gonna bring us back.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Um, this has been directed towards you, Michelle. You share in your book that society tends to diminish older women and expects them to fade into the background, younger women too. However, you chose to go the opposite direction. And it's also shown up in your fashion and you've worn bolder looks and gotten much more sort of expressive. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you're feeling now about the way you show up.

• 47:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I think my trajectory was a little unconventional. You know, that little eight-year stint as first lady tends, tends to confine, to be a bit confining.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:39Michelle Obama?

  Right, because, you know, that, the role, the job was not to just represent me, but to represent the nation.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 47:47Michelle Obama?

  And as the first black family in that house, just like, you know, black folks feel in all the first positions, that we're the, you know, we're, we're carrying the torch, we're lighting the way, which means that we've got to do it really, really well, so that the next folks will have a chance, you know? When you're, when you're the only, you know, you feel like if you don't get it right, nobody will ever get this position. Women, people of color, people of, of, of different ethnicities, of different genders and sexual orientation, we all feel that. So, a lot of my fashion choices, you know, it's, we talk about in the look, you know,

• 48:31Michelle Obama?

  the look was about using the, the language of fashion as a, as a way to send a message, to send a message about beauty, about culture, about the American spirit, about inclusion, right? So that was, you know, I had a role, right? Now that I'm out of that role, fashion is about me. It is selfishly. It's completely about what I like and what I want to do. It was that way in the White House. I mean, but it was confined.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Controlled, yeah.

• 49:06Michelle Obama?

  And so now I feel like, you know, whatever I do, I don't have to explain it. Or it doesn't have a consequence in that way. And it wasn't that I resented that, but that was the assignment.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Conscious.

• 49:19Michelle Obama?

  You know? I was representing. And now I'm just representing me.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  I remember one of the first outfits you wore after the White House were sky high boots in gold. And I was like, yes.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I got sent this. This is so good, this book. I love the way you talk about what you just said. And I love the way it's manifested in here. Because you really changed.

• 49:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  When you left.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Well, that would make sense, too. I'm curious.

• 49:46Michelle Obama?

  It does. It's great. We're evolving. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, I'm at a different place in life. My kids have graduated, you know? I'm an empty nester. I don't wake up. I mean, until they left the house, I woke up, every thought was them. You know, when they're under my roof, I'm like, how are you? Are you eating? What's wrong with you? Are you happy? Am I screwing you up? Is being in the White House going to make you crazy? Are you crazy? You know, where are you? Why didn't you come home? Why are you in trouble again? Oh, my God, did you do your homework?

• 50:23Speaker 00

  But you were a strict mom, weren't you?

• 50:25Michelle Obama?

  Uh, I was. The girls would say I was strict because I just believed in boundaries, you know, for kids.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 50:38Michelle Obama?

  And, you know, the consequences of their mistakes would be national fodder. So I wanted to protect them through that period and then fight for some normalcy. And that takes a little structure.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  Congratulations. Boy, did you succeed.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  But also, you're also your mother's daughter.

• 51:03Michelle Obama?

  I am.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  And that's the same way I feel. I feel, I believe in being strict.

• 51:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Bethan, I know we've talked a little bit about, you know, activism and... Particularly, I know you wrote a letter in 2013 to the industry. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that because I remember the wave that went through when that happened.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  In 2013, because the industry had sort of like lost its way, where you didn't see for a long time, for 10 years, say, models of color. I had to use the model industry. I used that and it was like a tool in my chest, the model. And it was just when you, I was a model and you saw it was normal to be one of girls color. But then at some given point, it just disappeared. 96, after the Black Girls Coalition, when we had the Black Girls Coalition, 1996, Eastern Europe had opened up and people started to go there, you know, scouts and model agencies would be being told, you cannot, you know, we're just not interested in black girls,

• 52:07Speaker 00

  no blacks, no ethnics, no blacks, no ethnics. So whatever model agents, models that the agencies had, they'd have to say to someone during the season, I'm sorry, but we're not seeing black girls this season. We're not seeing black boys that season. And so at this given point, you know, you say, listen, we have not been down this road. We had already conquered that. So now it's going, like getting whitewashed. And I just had to do like a data, checking how many models were being used by each agency to proof it. And then really hit the international market, which would be New York, London, Milan, and also Paris. And I wrote, I named all these houses that were guilty.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Basically, that no matter what the intention is, if you continue to use one or no or two models of color per season, no matter your intent, the result is racism. And to say that to an industry that would never think they're racist, but they're just busy frolicking with trend.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Really upset. I knew, I knew in my heart, I believed that they weren't racist. I believed they were just bold-faced ignorant. And ignorant to me, ignorance is much worse than racism to me. So I wrote the letter and sent it out, and then everyone started to scramble.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  It made a huge difference. I remember. It was a sea change.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it changed everything. And my point is, I was trying not only to change my industry, but once we could put those images back into place, it would change all industries, and it has.

• 53:37Michelle Obama?

  Well, this is the, you know, why history and understanding how we got where we are is so important, right? Because some would label that as DEI, as affirmative action, right? When the truth is, is that a lot of the fighting for equity and equality and inclusion is about the fact that DEI was happening in the reverse. That there was a lot of blackballing happening throughout the country. It's the history of America. You know, you can't join this union unless you were of this ethnicity. You don't get this opportunity because of the color of your skin, which means that a lot of the opportunities were earned without merit.

• 54:20Michelle Obama?

  It was earned because others were excluded, and there wasn't real clear competition. The best people weren't always getting the job. If you had to be the son of somebody, the daughter of somebody. That was, that was the history. And now to hear people criticizing DEI, I mean, it's almost like, okay, we, we like affirmative action as long as it benefits us. But if it's gonna bring too many immigrants and people with different skin colors into the fold, now we're gonna go after it?

• 55:01Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. I've been on so many of these sets, but I'm so excited to be in front of the camera. I've really made my career through word of mouth. That's partly how I ended up doing makeup for Michelle Obama. When I was a young makeup artist, I went down to the Four Seasons Hotel and asked if they were hiring. The owner of the salon came out and met me for tea, and after our conversation, she hired me on the spot. I worked at the hotel for 15 years as the resident makeup artist and had the opportunity to work with so many dynamic people. One day I got the call to meet Michelle Obama. She asked me to come on as part of her team. I spent years building my business by word of mouth,

• 55:45Speaker 05

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• 56:17Craig Robinson?

  Hey, everybody. Craig Robinson here. Amazon has everything for everyone on your list, like my sister Michelle. Now, let me tell you, shopping for her has always been a thing. When we were kids, she'd circle everything she wanted in the Christmas catalog. But now, it's impossible to find something for her other than books. She doesn't even wear those little fluffy slippers that everybody likes. But now, with Amazon, I don't have to run around to a dozen stores to find the perfect gift for her. Amazon's got it all in one place. Books, fitness products, even the latest gadgets she likes to play with when she's cooking for the family. And with Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals,

• 57:01Craig Robinson?

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• 57:44Craig Robinson?

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• 58:28Craig Robinson?

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• 58:53Michelle Obama?

  But knowing this kind of history in the modeling industry.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  It's important.

• 58:57Michelle Obama?

  But it's also important to elevate it to where we are now. And that's why I made it that way.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Jane, this one's for you. So since the 70s, you've been a very loud activist and willing to fight and sometimes get arrested. For major political and civil rights issues, do you still see yourself as that person today? And how has your activism changed?

• 59:20Speaker 03

  I want to talk about how activism has changed me. I don't feel like I really came into being until 1970, when I decided, because I lived in France, I was married to a Frenchman. I came back here because I couldn't protest in France. It didn't feel right.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  And I met people that were different than any people I had ever met.

• 59:42Michelle Obama?

  How so?

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Well, I remember there was a woman that ran a G.I. coffee house in Colleen, Texas. And, you know, sometimes you find something that you didn't know you were missing. You didn't know it existed. The way she was with me and with the G.I.s

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  was different than any people I'd ever met. It was like looking at the world we were fighting for through a keyhole. And I just, that's the team I want to be on. And I like to talk about that because

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  the way she was with me is the way we have to be with the millions of people who are going to be hurt by what's happening now.

• 1:00:21Michelle Obama?

  And what was that way? Yeah, I'm curious.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  How was she with you?

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  It had nothing to do with what I looked like. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was famous. Barbarella had come out. She wanted to know, because I was being sent on to the base with leaflet for a rally that was she wanted to know how I felt. What do you think? She asked my opinion. Nobody had ever asked my opinion about things like that. I was so new. She treated me with respect, but she treated the G.I.s that way, too. And I saw this.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  She just showed up in a very human way, and I hadn't experienced it before. And that's just something about the life I was living. It was quite hedonistic and superficial. And I had avoided dealing with real things because I knew, once I knew, I'd never turn back.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, and

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  I just, this is the way we have to be. You know, the cliche is be the change you're seeking. And she was. And that's the way we have to be.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Michelle Obama?

  What do you think is is missing in terms of courage? Because it takes a certain level of courage to leave To leave a life of safety, even though it wasn't perfect, you know, you were able to live in a bubble of sort of-

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Well, my dad, see, my dad, I grew up with Tom Joad. I grew up with Grapes of Wrath and Twelve Angry Men.

• 1:01:51Michelle Obama?

  Yes, exposure to that.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  You know, I was writing my autobiography. One day, the phone rang, it was Yolanda King, it was Martin Luther King's daughter, Yolanda. And I don't remember why she was calling, but since I was writing, I said, "Yolanda, when you were growing up, did Martin Luther King bout you on his knee and talk to you about values and how to live life?" And she said, "No." I said, "No, my dad didn't either, but you had his sermons." And I had my father's films, and so that kind of was like fertilizer in my soul. And so, when I started meeting these new kinds of people, it's like I didn't want to go back. Number one, and number two, I, you know, they thought, "Oh, she's a white, privileged girl."

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  You know, "Give her a little hard time and she'll cave."

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  I was getting the whole thing.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  The more they attacked me.

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  That's why you- But also, the other important thing is I was never alone, I was part of a movement.

• 1:02:51Michelle Obama?

  You're part of a movement.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  And that's what we have to do now, we have to rebuild movement of resistance along the lines of CNN. Creative, nonviolent, nonconforming.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Is there anything that scares you when you were younger, but no longer scares you?

• 1:03:05Speaker 03

  The thing that always scared me was intimacy.

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  I've been under bombs, I've been, you know, I've had all kinds of things, but emotional intimacy has always been hard, because I didn't experience it growing up. So, it's hard.

• 1:03:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  That scares me, yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  And today, too?

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  I don't know, because it all, only with men, I'm flying with women.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Because I would go, "She's not with anybody, that's a secret."

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  I'm fine, because I'm single now.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  You could be intimate with yourself now. You could be intimate with her.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  Thank you, yes, as a drawer.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  No, that's a good one.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  I'll ask the same question for you. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger but doesn't scare you anymore?

• 1:03:45Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, there are tons of things, you know. The dark, the boogeyman, all the myths and scary things.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  So you don't see scary films?

• 1:03:57Michelle Obama?

  I don't like scary films. I do not. I mean, the last, well, I think I saw The Exorcist a little too young. And I was like, this isn't fun.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Or Jaws.

• 1:04:07Michelle Obama?

  All of that. It's just not, not fun, not fun. The thing that scares me now, or maybe I'm flipping the question. You know, regular life, regular little things, failure doesn't scare me. But nowadays, it's, it's our lack of willingness to understand context,

• 1:04:35Michelle Obama?

  to understand history and to learn from our history. You know, we are moving in a direction. We are going backward to a time when mistakes were made and things were bad. But history taught us that we don't want to go there. We, people weren't happier. You know, we weren't safer. Things weren't more affordable. You weren't rich suddenly because, you know, there were no immigrants, you know.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Quite the opposite.

• 1:05:06Michelle Obama?

  Fairness, you know, giving people a living wage, making sure every person in this world has a stake in the bigger picture. Like, that keeps us safe, you know? Making sure people have jobs and they can pay their bills, you know? All of that matters. Like, there was a time of courage.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Michelle Obama?

  You guys lived through a time of, of people really tapping into some courage and especially people who have nothing to lose. If you're already rich, if you have some kind of grounding, if you are old enough to be able to lose. Like, I wonder, what? What's missing that we need inside of ourselves to get us to a place to want to organize and to, you know, sort of recapture. And I'm just curious to hear what you think.

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  You know, in the 50s, my father was part of the Committee for the First Amendment that was resisting McCarthyism and the House Un-American Activities Committee. We launched, re-launched the Committee for the First Amendment. The minute we went public, oh my God, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entertainment industry signed up. I mean, it's wild. It's wilder than I expected. People are ready, I think.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Well, that's great. I think that's good to hear because that's my fear. It's like what we didn't have fear about before seems like, will we have the power to do now?

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  We have to act fast.

• 1:06:45Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. You know, like before, yeah, I remember saying, I'll die for my people, you know, take me, not my people, you know, being real gangsters in the street and wanting to fight, you know, be down with the Panthers and do everything we can, what can we do? Like you said, the lack of fear. And now I see at this stage of my life, I'm thinking, glad I got my permanent residency in Mexico. You know, so I think you don't want to be the one to chicken out because you never were that person, you know? Where's the, but this is never like we've ever seen before. So I'm thinking, well, who's going to really come with it? How can we sneak and win? You know, that kind of thing.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  So that's some of my stuff now. I'm thinking about that in my mind and like how.

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  What we're up against though, it's so, it's dangerous, but it's also empty. It's hollow. So it's weak. And if we can get solidarity, strength in numbers and make it look as ridiculous as it really is, we win. We just have to do it quickly.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have to move fast because it's being moved very quickly.

• 1:07:53Michelle Obama?

  Very quickly. Well, and on the issue of aging and the next chapter, I'm working on the balance of. Leading, but making real space for the next generation of leaders. Because I also think that we do need to get the next generation really geared up and ready. Because these are truly their battles.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  That they're gonna have to face.

• 1:08:24Michelle Obama?

  Like, it's gonna be the world they inherit. Most of us know, I think I'm on the tangent of having experienced the country at not its best.

• 1:08:39Michelle Obama?

  I think I'm of the rare generation where we benefited from all that struggle, but we weren't really in it.

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Michelle Obama?

  But I knew enough in history. My grandparents were alive. You know, you still knew people who went through it. That was alive. The consequences were real and in your face. So that's why I think it's important for, as you age, for us to be intentional about making room. You know, we've got to have a plan in this next chapter to move out of the seats, to let the next generation lead. And sometimes you have to let them lead, whether they know all the answers or not. Because when are you ready to lead? Like, we didn't know we were ready. I mean, we're in the White House. We were in our 40s. We had little kids. I mean, I was like, Barack, are you sure you want to do this?

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  You didn't know?

• 1:09:32Michelle Obama?

  No, no. You never, I don't think you ever know that you're ready to lead. I think you just have to start doing it.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  It's the same thing with the letters. The same thing with me, it's the same thing with me writing those letters. The same thing of knowing that I'm getting ready now, even though I believed that I was the one to do it, because other people thought I was the only one who could do it. You still sit there and you take four years before you make that move. Because should I? This is gonna be, this is gonna be something. And I was so clear about it. And I knew I had to believe in the industry in order to do it. Because if I thought I had to fight, I don't know if I would have done it. But I knew how ignorant they were. I just knew that I need to educate. The whole point is you educate people along the way. And that's the thing that was so important, education.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  Well, we just all have to get really brave.

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  We have to get, that's right.

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  I always refer to- We've all seen the documentaries, the march on the Selma, the bridge, the batons and the dogs. South Africa, all over the world. And probably like me, asked, would I have been brave enough to do that? Yeah. And we don't have to ask anymore. This is it. This is it. Right now, we are in our documentary moment. And we either are brave enough, or we're gonna lose. Yeah. But I think we're brave enough.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Yes. Did you expect to be still doing this kind of level of activism at this age? Like, did you ever think you-

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  I didn't expect anything. Like I said, I thought I'd be dead at 30. I thought I had nothing to offer. No, I just slowly came into... But I'm... Because I'm surrounded by people who've been doing it longer than me. And they give me courage and strength. I'm not alone. It makes... We have to not be alone anymore. You know, ever since the 80s, individualism has been raised up as the pinnacle. This is what we're going for, each person for himself. Our democracy won't survive if it's each person for himself. We have to totally smash that. We have to start thinking about the public good, the public sphere. We have to unite across sectors. And that's what has to happen.

• 1:11:41Michelle Obama?

  I think generationally, something that has changed, to answer my question about courage. You remind me, Jane, of the isolation and the focus on individuality that I think is crippling. And I think technology, our heavy reliance on social media, our phones. Young people have become content in thinking that they can be happy all on their own. You know, and it's easy to do that. Because guess what? It's hard to come out. It's hard to be together. I think it's harder for a certain generation to do that now. But I think, you know, what I've learned in these many years,

• 1:12:24Michelle Obama?

  just as you've learned, Jane, and I know you have too, Beth Ann, is that we don't do anything on our own. That that's not, you know, that individuality isn't a virtue. You know, standing on, just on your own and getting to a place, "I got here on my own", that seems like a sad way to get anywhere.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  And plus, they don't even go to the movies.

• 1:12:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  Because I mean, they need to go to the movies instead of a movie theater.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  I can't get my son to sit down for a movie. I cannot. I can get them to watch a television show, but I cannot get them to watch-

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's very true. They really won't even go into a movie theater, where you do have a feeling of being with others naturally. They said, "No, I got it. I got it right here."

• 1:13:04Michelle Obama?

  And I think that, for me, I think it helps in my feeling of longevity, my hardiness at this stage in life, is that, you know, whether it's fashion, or hair, or dying my hair, or staying in shape, or eating right, it's mostly community.

• 1:13:22Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 1:13:22Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's mostly having a big, broad set of people who I count on, that I feel nurtured by. And while eight years in the White House were depleting in one way, it was also reinforcing, because it was eight years of connecting to this country.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  That's a nice note to end on. I will say, this has been deeply inspiring for me. I came in here with totally different expectations, and I'm moved. It was really special. So, thank you for having me.

• 1:13:55Michelle Obama?

  This was really special for me as well. Thank you. Thank you all for taking time out of your lives. I mean, this is one of my dream conversations. It really, really is. And it has lived up to every expectation. Let me just tell you, when I grow up, I want to be like you both. And you as well, Jenna, coming up baby. You're the baby.

• 1:14:18Speaker 02

  I'm like four years younger than you.

• 1:14:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, but that's a baby. I'm calling you the baby, right? Because I'm the baby.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  It's never happened. I really want to say that too. I am so grateful, as you've said, being loved, whether it be your male friends or your female friends, having that respect and honor from so many is so, it's been like a chariot for me.

• 1:14:39Michelle Obama?

  But I think what's important for these conversations is that there are going to be a lot of women of all ages, and men too, that are going to hear this. And it's about sharing and the level of vulnerability that everyone displayed here. This is, to me, this is like a ministry of conversation, you know? Because people will look and say, "Well, if these women think this way, feel this way, have lived this long, or grown this way, then they're still..."

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Michelle Obama?

  They're still...

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  That's what's important. I quote Jane often, like I said, about, like even about, "You never feel old if you're not sick." If you're, you know, that's so true, though. When you start feeling sick and you fall into that. And I'm really grateful for this conversation too, because...

• 1:15:23Michelle Obama?

  No one thinks to have them.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Michelle Obama?

  Well, thank you all.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:15:28Michelle Obama?

  Well done, you guys.

• 1:15:29Speaker 06

  All right, tequila, tequila, tequila.

• 1:15:53Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Cologuard. I knew that I shouldn't delay screening for colon cancer, and Cologuard has made that process one million times easier for all of us. I just answered a few questions about my age and medical history, and once their licensed clinician determined I was eligible, they issued the prescription and the Cologuard Plus kit was sent right to my home. No doctor's office visit necessary. For me, there was just immediate relief in getting it done. It cost me $0 with my insurance. It took me truly 15 minutes, and now I can rest easier knowing I screened properly. Plus, if you get a negative result, you generally don't need a repeat Cologuard test for three years.

• 1:16:37Craig Robinson?

  If you're 45 or older and at average risk, it's time to screen for colon cancer, even if you feel perfectly healthy. And Cologuard Plus gives you an option you can use right at home. Talk to your health care provider about screening for colon cancer with Cologuard or request it online today at Cologuard.com, where they have an easy telehealth option. Don't wait. Cologuard products are intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use if you have had a personal history of colorectal cancer or polyps, have inflammatory bowel disease, a family history of colorectal cancer, or certain hereditary syndromes, or a positive result from another colon cancer screening method within that test-recommended screening interval. Cologuard results should be interpreted with caution as false positives and false negatives do occur. Available by prescription only.