Pod Insights IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson Dating Should Be about Pursuing Joy with Tracee Ellis Ross About this episode Actress, director, producer and businesswoman Tracee Ellis Ross joins IMO to answer a listener question from a man who has been unlucky in love but wants a partner and family. Tracee discusses how she learned to embrace being single for much of her adult life, why she feels ready to date again, and shares her dating checklist. Plus, Craig offers his thoughts on what men are looking for in their dating lives.
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Transcript 10,302 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Michelle Obama? You know, it's, it's sort of innocently sweet and it's not so hard over the head. Like, can you stand alone in a room?
0:06 Speaker 01 That's why I like the question, because I would ask that all wrong.
0:08 Michelle Obama? Right, that's just the thing.
0:10 Speaker 01 I would ask that same question.
0:12 Michelle Obama? Are you an insecure trifling ass?
0:13 Speaker 01 That is exactly right.
0:14 Michelle Obama? Are you so insecure?
0:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:16 Michelle Obama? That you can't handle a strong woman?
0:19 Speaker 01 Are you uncomfortable with my bigness?
0:20 Michelle Obama? You know, and then...
0:20 Speaker 01 I would ask it all wrong. He would be squashed from the start.
0:24 Craig Robinson? Because I am a boss. I am a boss.
0:26 Speaker 01 I'm a boss. Are you okay being the fella?
0:28 Michelle Obama? Can you level up? Can you level up? And then he's running away going, I don't...
0:33 Speaker 01 She's aggressive.
0:47 Craig Robinson? How you doing?
0:48 Michelle Obama? I'm doing great. Yeah, feeling good. Another day, alive.
0:55 Michelle Obama? We're getting to that age where, you know...
0:57 Craig Robinson? No, we're not.
0:57 Michelle Obama? I'm just, just blessed and woken up, got up. You don't think we're at that age? You're older than me.
1:04 Craig Robinson? No, I, I, yes.
1:06 Michelle Obama? Well, we are.
1:06 Craig Robinson? Yeah, but I...
1:07 Michelle Obama? We were in our 60s, my friend.
1:08 Craig Robinson? I know, but I, I'm hoping I got a good 20 more left. That's what I'm shooting for, at least.
1:14 Michelle Obama? But, you know, we're at the age now where, you know, it's not so tragic.
1:18 Craig Robinson? I know. Well, did you get enough rest last night, old lady?
1:21 Michelle Obama? I did, I did. I, you know, the girls came over for dinner and I was so tired that I left them at the table, which is unusual, because I love hanging out with my girls, but I was that sleepy. I was like, you know what? Mom's going to bed. You can sit here and talk to your dad. So, so, but yeah, I, I got to bed early and had plenty of sleep. How's your Airbnb feeling?
1:44 Craig Robinson? Oh, my gosh.
1:45 Michelle Obama? Still happy with your situation?
1:47 Craig Robinson? So, I'm so happy that I did not go to dinner last night. I left here.
1:51 Michelle Obama? Just to stay in your Airbnb house?
1:53 Craig Robinson? Just to be able to chill in my Airbnb in West Hollywood. And guess who visited me this morning to do their laundry?
2:01 Michelle Obama? Who?
2:01 Craig Robinson? Leslie. You know, my daughter's in town here and she came over to bring her laundry to do. I mean, that's, that's why I like...
2:08 Michelle Obama? Why does she have laundry? Is, how long has she been here?
2:10 Craig Robinson? You know why? Because she works out every day.
2:11 Michelle Obama? Oh, okay.
2:12 Craig Robinson? So, she had a whole bag full of gym clothes and underwear and stuff and just put it in. And I was like, yeah, come on over. And then we had breakfast and... And then she went to meetings.
2:22 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
2:23 Craig Robinson? And I think she's gonna come stay with me tonight, so.
2:25 Michelle Obama? I'm learning a lot about the Airbnb life since we don't do that.
2:29 Craig Robinson? You don't get to do it.
2:30 Michelle Obama? But the girls do. Malia and Sasha, whenever they're traveling.
2:34 Craig Robinson? And so our kids, Avery and Leslie and Emily and Elena, they all, they have no qualms about, let's go, let's find a place.
2:42 Michelle Obama? It's really a different intergenerational use. I mean, young people, they like being in a home. Well, a lot of times when they're traveling, they're sharing with their friends, they're dividing up a house and, you know, so.
2:55 Craig Robinson? And I find I've gotten to like it now, so, you know, I was a strictly hotel guy.
3:01 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
3:02 Craig Robinson? I wanted maid service every day. I wanted to be able to go down to the bar or not have to drive anywhere. I wanted, I wanted all that stuff, but then the amenities of having your own place.
3:14 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
3:14 Craig Robinson? That's like a house and you can sort of live the way you normally live is much more appealing.
3:19 Michelle Obama? Well, it sounds like it'd be a good girls' trip, a friend gathering session or, you know, it's a little, little. But anyway.
3:28 Craig Robinson? It's a good.
3:28 Michelle Obama? Well, I'm glad you are comfortable in your Airbnb, mister. So you'll never stay with me ever again, I guess.
3:35 Craig Robinson? No, that's, it's, it's, it's, I would not do that.
3:37 Michelle Obama? Have we been displaced?
3:38 Craig Robinson? You have not been displaced.
3:40 Michelle Obama? Oh, good.
3:41 Craig Robinson? You have not been displaced. It's, you know, but you might want to come visit me every now and then now.
3:47 Michelle Obama? Would you, would I mess up your mojo if I showed up with my motorcade in your, your house?
3:52 Craig Robinson? Well.
3:52 Michelle Obama? Driving up the driveway with.
3:54 Craig Robinson? It, it wouldn't mess up my mojo.
3:56 Michelle Obama? Uh huh.
3:56 Craig Robinson? Might mess up the owner's mojo.
3:59 Michelle Obama? Uh.
4:00 Craig Robinson? It might not mess up.
4:01 Michelle Obama? Well, maybe, maybe I'll stop by and see all your, your mini pools in your house.
4:05 Craig Robinson? Yes, yes.
4:06 Michelle Obama? Well, what are we talking about today?
4:08 Craig Robinson? So we're talking about dating today.
4:12 Craig Robinson? And.
4:14 Michelle Obama? I love talking about dating. Cause I haven't done it in decades.
4:18 Craig Robinson? And, and you know, when we were preparing for this, I was asked the question, when we were younger, did we talk about dating? And I have to say, we, I don't remember talking about dating much at all when we were younger.
4:34 Michelle Obama? I felt like I was way more in your business and I kept my business to myself.
4:40 Craig Robinson? Yeah, but I didn't have much business. I mean, just think about it. I had to be fixed up on my junior prom. I mean, I didn't have any, I didn't, I don't remember having real girlfriends.
4:51 Michelle Obama? Oh, that's the problem with.
4:53 Craig Robinson? College, so.
4:54 Michelle Obama? With, with you and these sports, it's like.
4:57 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
4:57 Michelle Obama? Yeah, spending too much time in the gym.
4:59 Craig Robinson? Yeah, yeah, it really was too much time in the gym and focused on my schoolwork. And then I just wasn't.
5:10 Michelle Obama? But it was.
5:10 Craig Robinson? Dating type.
5:11 Michelle Obama? But it's interesting because, all right, so this is the, the benefits of being the sister of a, of a guy who plays sports, which is one of the reasons why I enjoyed going to your games is like, most of the guys I dated were on the JV team. So me and my friends, we'd show up at the game. So I don't know why you couldn't find a date because I think my first several boyfriends were your teammates or they were younger on the JV team.
5:39 Craig Robinson? They were younger versions of.
5:41 Michelle Obama? Because that was always an important test was, well, what do you think about them as a teammate? You know, are they, first of all, are they good at basketball? So I generally only dated the people that you said were actually good.
5:53 Craig Robinson? Right.
5:53 Michelle Obama? You know, also you and you had this theory about, you know, knowing a person by their on the court behavior.
6:02 Craig Robinson? Yeah, I can't take full credit for that because I really got it from dad. And what, what dad would, my, what my dad would say is you can really tell a person's character by how they play pickup basketball. And the reason is. You can see how hard a person works. You can see if they're the type of person who talks trash. And I've told this story many times about when you first started dating Barack. So Meeh starts to date Barack and we don't know who this guy is. We just like Barack, who's got a name like Barack? And I was, and I'm thinking to myself, it's gonna last about a month like most of your relationships did.
6:40 Michelle Obama? That's not true.
6:41 Craig Robinson? And.
6:42 Michelle Obama? I've had many a long-term boyfriend.
6:44 Craig Robinson? I wouldn't call those guys boyfriends.
6:46 Michelle Obama? Oh, my gosh. See, see what I had to go through. You didn't even call, you didn't even wanna call my boyfriends boyfriends. None of those guys, but anyway.
6:54 Craig Robinson? Anyway, so Meeh pulls up to the house and we're sitting on the front porch, waiting for her to bring Barack. And she gets out of the car and I remember mom's first thing was, ooh, at least he's tall. That was her first thing she said because Meeh was usually posting up her other boyfriends. She said, at least he's tall. And I, and I said to myself, well, it's too bad it's not gonna last. But the best part of it was after we met him and, and she had been dating him for a little while. She said, would you mind Craig taking him to play? And at first I said, no way. I am not doing your dirty work for you.
7:34 Craig Robinson? If, if he turns out to be a bad dude, I am not gonna be the one to say. And you said, come on, please. And I, and I finally acquiesced. And so we went and obviously we had a great time playing and.
7:51 Michelle Obama? What did you learn about?
7:52 Craig Robinson? This is what I learned. Aside from the fact that he is tremendously left-handed, so he couldn't go right at all.
8:02 Craig Robinson? Most importantly, he was a team player, right? Like he fit in with the people. And so I was able to report back to you, everything was fine and, and the rest is history. So anyway, we got off the subject. So, but, and you know, another one of the reasons why I didn't date. Was I went to an all-boys high school. So it, it's not like girls are walking down the hallway and you see one like, ooh, wanna go to movies or something? It was like. Crickets.
8:33 Michelle Obama? Yeah, but you, you know, you're just an all around nice guy. You were, you weren't shy, but you definitely weren't, you didn't, you didn't have some lines. And I think that that's what we wound up talking about. It's like, you gotta, you know, you gotta get your game on.
8:50 Craig Robinson? Yeah, you did say that.
8:51 Michelle Obama? So, you know, I think the politeness of you, you had to wait to hear that somebody had a crush on you or was interested in you. I think you never assumed that.
9:03 Craig Robinson? Right, no, I, you would have had to hit me over the head with the fact that somebody was interested for me to have the nerve to ask them on a date.
9:12 Michelle Obama? Yeah, and for your friends at this stage in life, you know, forget high school, college, because, you know, you're just doing what you're doing then.
9:22 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
9:22 Michelle Obama? How do, how do you think your friends think about selecting, dating?
9:28 Craig Robinson? Here, here's what I will say, and I am dying to get our guest out here because she's gonna be able to help referee.
9:36 Michelle Obama? For sure.
9:37 Craig Robinson? This between you and me, but I will tell you.
9:40 Michelle Obama? I don't know if it'll just be between you and me.
9:45 Craig Robinson? I, I think guys in my generation, when they were dating, they ended up marrying the women they were dating when they were ready to get married.
9:56 Michelle Obama? Yeah, it's like musical chairs.
9:58 Craig Robinson? Exactly.
9:59 Michelle Obama? Just like, okay, the music stopped, I'm sitting on your lap, I love you.
10:03 Craig Robinson? But what I will tell you is, we all ended up getting divorced. And once we started dating again, much more discerning. When I met Kelly, I was not interested in a relationship, not even dating. We just happened to be talking to somebody at the same time. So I'm making a long story short, but the point is, once we started dating, we said, I said, let's figure out if this is gonna work or not work. So we said, listen, let's go somewhere where we can figure out if this is gonna work. So we went to San Diego, the place we always go to. Nice, big house, it was like, you have your own bedroom, I have my own bedroom.
10:48 Craig Robinson? If this doesn't work, we just say, c'est la vie and have a nice weekend. I said, bring your list of things you want to talk about. And I brought my list and my list does 30 different things.
11:03 Michelle Obama? Thirty?
11:03 Craig Robinson? Thirty-two, thirty-two things that I had individually that I wanted discussed.
11:07 Michelle Obama? Thirty-two items?
11:07 Craig Robinson? Thirty-two items. She had three. I was like, this ain't gonna work.
11:13 Michelle Obama? Oh.
11:14 Craig Robinson? But after we went through my 32, you know what she said?
11:17 Michelle Obama? What?
11:18 Craig Robinson? All of yours fit into at least my three categories. I thought I was just doing categories. I wasn't doing the things.
11:25 Michelle Obama? I think that would have been a reasonable thing to think.
11:27 Craig Robinson? I was, I was, I was burned.
11:29 Michelle Obama? You, you go from like, I didn't ask any questions. I was just ready to get married to a list of 105 steps before. But that, that, well, it worked.
11:38 Craig Robinson? It worked because now, I, I mean, you know, everything. I knew everything. She knew everything about me and so it worked out. Thank goodness. But let, let's bring out our.
11:49 Michelle Obama? Yeah, it's time.
11:50 Craig Robinson? Yes, and I, I almost feel like I don't even want to do a formal introduction because this is one of the first times we've had on this show where the guest feels more like a family member.
12:02 Michelle Obama? She just, she really, she got manners.
12:05 Craig Robinson? Sweet, she's got manners.
12:07 Michelle Obama? She was raised right.
12:08 Craig Robinson? Talking about being fun.
12:09 Michelle Obama? No, exactly.
12:11 Craig Robinson? But she's an award-winning actress. She's a screenwriter, a director, an entrepreneur that I want, I want to, I want to hear about this.
12:18 Michelle Obama? You don't, you don't know about pattern? I guess not, you're bold. Okay, I'm sorry, I forgot.
12:23 Craig Robinson? Oh, man. You let me do my job here.
12:25 Michelle Obama? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I interrupted.
12:27 Craig Robinson? And, and so, uh, without any further ado, Tracee Ellis Ross.
12:33 Michelle Obama? Tracee!
12:36 Speaker 03 How are you? I'm so good. Like I said, family. I do, I do feel like family.
12:41 Craig Robinson? We got family in the house.
12:46 Speaker 03 Really interesting conversation.
12:48 Craig Robinson? Oh.
12:49 Speaker 03 I took some notes.
12:50 Craig Robinson? Oh.
12:50 Speaker 03 I took notes in my head and I actually wrote them down out there because you said there's a lot you can learn about how, who a guy is or who a person is by how they are on the court.
13:01 Craig Robinson? Yes.
13:01 Michelle Obama? They let their guard down.
13:02 Craig Robinson? They let their guard down and their character comes out.
13:05 Speaker 03 Think I could have used that information. I think, I think I'm, I'm a little late on adding that to my list of how to figure out if he's a match. They're still noted now. There's still time because I'm still single, so noted now.
13:19 Michelle Obama? You know, there's, there's still time.
13:21 Craig Robinson? Guy out there breaking his hip trying to play basketball.
13:23 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I know. It's gotta be a different measure now.
13:25 Craig Robinson? I know.
13:26 Michelle Obama? You know, I made Barack put his basketball shoes up once he got his lip busted when he was in the White House.
13:32 Speaker 03 Oh, my goodness.
13:33 Michelle Obama? Playing a pickup game. Yeah, and I don't think many people realize this because he was definitely in shape, athletic. And I remember because you were at that pickup game.
13:41 Craig Robinson? Yes.
13:41 Michelle Obama? And I'm in the White House, actually in the doctor's office, getting an exam. So they're, they're playing at one of the admin gyms and we get the call. We hear that the agents are like, you know, um, Renegades coming back. There's been an accident, you know? And I'm like, ugh, because I'm always like, be careful playing basketball. You shouldn't be playing now. You now have a, a real important job.
14:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, people are depending on you.
14:07 Michelle Obama? You know, and, and literally he's coming in with a, you know, a gauze thing on his, on his lip.
14:14 Speaker 03 Oh, my God. He didn't need stitches or anything.
14:15 Michelle Obama? He needed like 30 something stitches.
14:18 Speaker 03 Oh, my God.
14:20 Michelle Obama? I mean, his, his lip was, I saw it. It was like he took the thing away and I was like, ugh, your lip. And he had some major speech. This was probably Saturday. He had some major speech on Monday and I was like, this is what I'm saying? You know, you're playing like you're tin and now your lip is split.
14:35 Speaker 03 That is.
14:36 Michelle Obama? So we, we digress.
14:37 Craig Robinson? Yes, that's okay.
14:38 Michelle Obama? Because no, no, no longer can we, are we dating people?
14:42 Speaker 03 No, but I am.
14:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I was about to say, I was like, Tracy, Tracy's, you know, my girl.
14:47 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:47 Michelle Obama? I mean, the tale's from the road.
14:49 Speaker 03 And I do bring, I bring stories home.
14:51 Michelle Obama? She's got stories. I'm like, what, what's happened? The last several months.
14:56 Speaker 03 And it's always eventful.
14:57 Michelle Obama? It's always good.
14:58 Speaker 03 Well, the thing is, I stay open. I'm probably more open. Oh, my God, that sounded so wrong.
15:04 Michelle Obama? I didn't mean that, Mom.
15:06 Speaker 03 My heart.
15:07 Michelle Obama? Your family.
15:07 Speaker 03 My heart stays open.
15:09 Michelle Obama? Your heart literally stays open.
15:11 Speaker 03 Yes, yeah, that was hard. More open than it than it should be, but I do date. And it's a fascinating adventure out there, you know. Mostly, though, I think there's really good men out there. I think to a certain extent, I'm a very unique sort of unicorn of a woman. And so it's gonna take a unique person. And in the meantime, I have really learned how to live my life and enjoy it and not sit around waiting. I come, you know, I was saying to someone recently that I'm one of the first generations of choice. And it's not anymore, which really, there was a window and that has shifted. And I do think that that's gonna change dating for women so much.
15:56 Michelle Obama? When you mean you've been the sort of the product of choice?
15:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, like the assumption of Roe v. Wade. And the ability for a woman to find her own delight and pleasure and choice around how she navigates dating or how one would navigate dating. And we're in a different world now. And I'm curious what that will look like. It frightens me for younger girls because of many reasons, obviously. But even with the systemic protection of Roe v. Wade, I still was coming up against the cultural norms of being a choiceful woman and owning my own body and my own choices and what it is that I'm looking for in a relationship
16:41 Speaker 03 and the ability to negotiate in a relationship, what it is you want the relationship to be between the two of you, as opposed to what society says it should be.
16:50 Michelle Obama? Well, I don't.
16:50 Speaker 03 And that's different.
16:51 Michelle Obama? I don't know that we're gonna lose that. I think women, we're used to having a say in our lives. And I don't know whether this. The whole movement is about sort of re-harnessing us. You know, whether is it really about,
17:08 Speaker 03 And can that really work?
17:09 Michelle Obama? Reproductive rights, can that really work now that women are educated? And, and, and we're being raised differently. I mean, the truth is, is that men, fathers are modernized.
17:21 Speaker 03 Yes.
17:22 Michelle Obama? Right? I mean,
17:22 Speaker 03 Mostly.
17:23 Michelle Obama? Mostly they are, you know? And if you were to ask the average man, how are you raising your daughter? Because you love her. The average father that loves their daughter wants them to be excellent, you know? And they want them to have opportunity and freedom.
17:39 Speaker 03 And freedom.
17:40 Michelle Obama? When you think about who, you don't want your daughter saddle marrying some guy that chose her because he just didn't think about anything else and was ready at the time.
17:50 Speaker 03 Is his choice.
17:51 Michelle Obama? Exactly. So I, I don't think a lot of leaders are thinking about that.
17:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, and they, they haven't been asked to because I think it's, it's not always a context that if it's an area that you don't have to think into.
18:05 Michelle Obama? Right.
18:05 Speaker 03 But I think there is, it is a genuine, regular thought process for me. It's one of the reasons, I mean, we've talked about this, that often I date younger men. And a lot of it is because.
18:15 Michelle Obama? Let's stop on that, folks.
18:17 Speaker 03 Oh, my God, we had a great dinner.
18:19 Michelle Obama? On that one.
18:20 Speaker 03 We had a great dinner, by the way, where across the table, your husband goes, but why? And I said, well, maybe because I can.
18:27 Michelle Obama? Yes.
18:30 Michelle Obama? This is why I'm saying Tales from Tracy's.
18:34 Speaker 03 It's fun.
18:34 Michelle Obama? It's really fun to share.
18:35 Speaker 03 Tracy Tale.
18:36 Michelle Obama? But, but, I'm sorry.
18:38 Speaker 03 But the, one of the reasons, though, that, because I had to ask myself that question. I was like, what is this about?
18:42 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
18:43 Speaker 03 Because I want a partner and so often, and it's not just that I'm older. I'm also very embodied. I am a full, very whole person who knows myself, who is in charge of my life and who lives a very full, just robust life. So. It's not just age, it's like life experience and sort of a difference. But I had to ask myself the question, why? Why does this keep sort of coming up other than they're hot and gorgeous?
19:09 Michelle Obama? There's that.
19:10 Speaker 03 There's that. But a lot of men my age are steeped in a toxic masculinity and have been raised in a culture where there is a particular way that a relationship looks. And anything that starts to smell of that for me, I am, I did enough of it where I was controlled and felt like I was a possession or I, whatever those things were, or prize, or, and I just, I have no interest in it and I will not do it again.
19:39 Michelle Obama? I'm sorry.
19:40 Craig Robinson? No, I was gonna say, so it's a generational thing? So it didn't matter how you met them or is it just kind of the guys you're meeting?
19:47 Speaker 03 That's obviously, it's a generalization. But, um, cause I have dated men my age, there is a difference. There is an openness that occurs with a younger man around whether it's gender fluidity or not even having an issue with homosexuality. I mean, something as basic as that, that there's times.
20:06 Craig Robinson? I hear you.
20:07 Speaker 03 Or I'll be, you know, sitting across the table from somebody and just like, what did you just say?
20:11 Michelle Obama? What century are you?
20:13 Speaker 03 Like, oh my god.
20:14 Michelle Obama? Where's your horse and buggy?
20:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, like, I'm so sorry.
20:16 Michelle Obama? And your, your bedpan.
20:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, for real.
20:19 Craig Robinson? Chamber pot.
20:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're a chamber pot, you're a chamber pot. Like where I'm just like, yeah, this is not a match. And I don't, I have long been past the age where I feel like it's my job to teach somebody or grow them up, that I'm not interested in. So, um, but it's interesting. I mean, there's so many different philosophies on dating and I have come up with mine. I have come up with what works for me and what makes sense for me and what feels safe for me.
20:45 Michelle Obama? Yep.
20:45 Speaker 03 You know? I mean, like, I'm not on dating apps. I have friends that have great success with dating apps, but that's just not something I'm comfortable with.
20:51 Craig Robinson? So you're meeting folks in the wild then?
20:53 Speaker 03 That's the only way for me, or someone sets me up, or I meet them at an event, I meet someone. It's usually people that also have a, a level of recognition that. They, you know, have as much to lose as me to a certain extent. I don't know. I mean, I haven't had great luck lately, but I do have to say I'm, I'm moving up on what it is that I'm looking for as a match.
21:15 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:15 Speaker 03 Yeah. I've had some doozies.
21:17 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:17 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:18 Michelle Obama? Yeah. But it's just, I just love watching your life because you were modeling so many things. The next phase, how, how many versions of ourselves we can become at all ages in life. You know, and how to build the life you want. Yes. Not the life that somebody told you, you were supposed to have. And let me tell you, I have, I told you this about the girls and Tracy, just like, you know, she mentors the girls. She's always there for them. But trying to get, trying to make sure that I am not subconsciously sending them these messages about what their life should look like, even like when you ask, are you dating anyone? I mean, that's something that we ask young people in their twenties, you know?
22:03 Michelle Obama? The whole thing about weddings, you know? We talk a lot about that. Yeah. It's just like the pre-proposal and the bachelorette and the pre-honeymoon. And then the three wedding dresses and the, and, you know, have you thought about? The amount of money. Your 32 list items of who you want to marry? Or are you more busy planning, picking out your photographer?
22:26 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's interesting, that whole, I, I hope that that is starting to dissipate culturally. I really do. I think it, social media is perpetuating some of those things in a really big way. But I, you know, I did dream of my wedding growing up. And that's not to say that I didn't dream of the bigness of my life. But I could have spent a lot more time dreaming of my life. And, and you know, as much as grief does surface for me around not having children and not having a partner, I still wouldn't want the wrong partner. That's a great point for people out here. I, I, I don't, I'm not interested in that. You have to make my life better. It can't just be, you know, I'm in a relationship to be in a relationship.
23:11 Speaker 03 So even though the grief does emerge and that comes and I hold that. I think of what I've done and I think of I woke up every morning trying to do my best. I didn't wake up one morning and be like, I'm gonna mess this day up. That's right. So I must be where I'm supposed to be. And I don't know, sometimes I think of all of the things I've done, the courage that I've had to have and what I've had to learn how to navigate as a single person with no one to hide behind. Yeah. And it's built a really beautiful experience around me and I have incredible friends. You do.
23:46 Craig Robinson? Well, this is a good segue to get to our question.
23:48 Speaker 03 Let's do it.
23:49 Craig Robinson? Especially the talking about dating and meeting people. And we have a great question. So Natalie, our producer, is going to be the question for. Make sure your mic works over there. Is it working?
24:01 Speaker 03 I think we're good.
24:02 Craig Robinson? All right.
24:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, we're good. I'm excited.
24:05 Speaker 04 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Ronan and I'm 41 years old. I've got a question about that big frustrating topic, dating. More accurately, I should say, how not to date. Let me explain. Throughout my 30s, I was in and out of relationships. One was very fruitful. It lasted several years, but in various respects of our lives, the timing just did not align. So we ended up splitting up. Since then, I've found myself in relationships that have been very clearly unsuccessful. One woman's creative and professional interests totally matched mine, but we fought constantly. Then I was with a woman who was great. Our leisure interests
24:48 Speaker 04 were similar. Her family was great, but I was just not that into it. Something was missing. Most recently, I ended up in a longer term relationship that my friends at least would call toxic. We had great chemistry and I was really in love with her, but she struggled with sustained intimacy after a recent divorce. And as a result, I got myself caught in a pretty regular cycle of hurt. Since then, my dating has been a mess. I've been distracted by women I simply find attractive, but who otherwise clearly are not a match. And in the meantime, I still find myself thinking about my last relationship.
25:31 Speaker 04 So this brings me back to the start of my question. My closest friends are telling me the one thing I need now is to not date. They tell me if I can figure out how to be happy on my own, I'll have a better chance of finding happiness with someone else. The thing is, I am not totally convinced by this. I enjoy dating, but I also understand that what I'm doing clearly is not working. So what in the world would you say to a guy like me? Are my friends right? Should I try to enter into a period of being single by choice? How could I actually benefit from being single if I ultimately really want a partner and family? And if it is helpful, what tips do you have to help me put this period of non-dating into
26:16 Speaker 04 practice and to make it stick? Thanks for your advice, Ronan.
26:22 Speaker 03 It's a great question.
26:23 Michelle Obama? Yeah, and it's interesting coming from a 40-ish man.
26:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, I like it.
26:29 Michelle Obama? Because men can marry when they choose to, just like.
26:31 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, I thought that was so interesting what you said. When you asked Craig that question, I thought, I think it's timing.
26:37 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
26:37 Speaker 03 Yeah. That when a guy feels they're ready, then it, who's in front of you.
26:41 Michelle Obama? Right.
26:42 Speaker 03 Just crazy.
26:42 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm.
26:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
26:44 Speaker 03 It's crazy.
26:44 Michelle Obama? It's so crazy.
26:45 Speaker 03 It is crazy. And then it takes your second marriage to figure out you need to be discerning.
26:49 Michelle Obama? For some people, like they don't go forth or they never figure it out.
26:53 Speaker 03 I know.
26:53 Michelle Obama? It's fascinating.
26:55 Craig Robinson? My technique for the second one, I thought was pretty good.
26:58 Speaker 03 I think that is really, I thought that was really helpful for other people to hear. The other thing I'm curious is, is that cultural? That men, it's timing? Or is it, I don't know, it's nature or nurture?
27:11 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of it is cultural, right? We grow up waiting to be choo- chosen, you know? At the school dance, you don't get to dance, or at least in our generation, you didn't get to dance if somebody didn't ask you to dance.
27:26 Speaker 03 Yeah, and then if you are the chooser, then men are like, you're aggressive.
27:30 Michelle Obama? Oh, my gosh, there wasn't any choosing.
27:32 Speaker 03 Well, now for my generation.
27:34 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
27:34 Speaker 03 Or I don't even know my generation for me.
27:36 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
27:38 Craig Robinson? Can I give you just a little bit of a different thought process behind it?
27:42 Michelle Obama? That's why you're here.
27:44 Craig Robinson? Imagine as a 17 year old and you're walking into a sock hop, which I just use for effect, but a dance, a party.
27:55 Michelle Obama? But there are a lot of kids going, what, what is that? What are your socks have to do with anything?
28:00 Craig Robinson? You go, but we used to have these sock hops or it's a school dance. So imagine you're 17 years old and there's a bunch of girls in there and you go ask somebody to dance and they say, no, thank you.
28:11 Michelle Obama? Oh, terrible. Yeah. Yeah.
28:13 Speaker 03 Heartbreaking.
28:13 Craig Robinson? And then you go to ask the next person and they say, no, thank you.
28:16 Michelle Obama? Oh, no, I don't like this.
28:17 Craig Robinson? But that's how it was.
28:19 Michelle Obama? Yeah, that's hard. That's very hard.
28:20 Craig Robinson? That's how it was. So the question you have to ask yourself as a guy is, do I just take what I have or do I take the chance of asking the next person and they say no?
28:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah, the courage. Yeah.
28:33 Craig Robinson? That's, that's real. That's real. So.
28:37 Michelle Obama? It's an important perspective for sure.
28:39 Craig Robinson? Yes.
28:40 Michelle Obama? And it, and it is hard, but ultimately you choose, right? It's scary, but you know, so imagine the girl who is standing in the same sock hop with her shoes off now all embarrassed because she's standing in her socks.
29:00 Craig Robinson? See what I have to put up with?
29:02 Michelle Obama? I have, I have four siblings. Waiting to be asked and people are just passing her by, you know? And they're a bunch of shy boys, not even trying. Whereas a guy can decide that the decision is still a man's to make.
29:20 Craig Robinson? Right.
29:20 Speaker 03 Not, is it though, always? I just think culturally that is what we say. Yes.
29:25 Michelle Obama? I think culturally, that's what I was saying. The, the original question was, is it nature or nurture? I, I think a lot of it is the culture.
29:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
29:34 Michelle Obama? That gives that power.
29:35 Speaker 03 I, I agree.
29:36 Michelle Obama? To men. Now it's a difficult power to have because with power comes responsibility and hurt and risk and all that. But.
29:44 Speaker 03 You know, even to this day, as you said, Tracy, if a woman crosses that dance floor to ask, she's aggressive.
29:52 Michelle Obama? Oh, oh, oh, oh.
29:53 Speaker 03 It's an unattractive quality. So now I either wait to be to dance or I don't dance at all.
30:00 Craig Robinson? I don't necessarily agree with that.
30:02 Speaker 03 Okay.
30:02 Craig Robinson? And I also would say, as a boy or a young man, if a woman walked across the floor and asked me to dance, it was no way I was gonna say no.
30:13 Speaker 03 Well, I think, obviously, there's all different kinds of people. There's all different ki-- I mean, and you know, then we are not even entering into the gender fluidity within this conversation. That is so much a part of what the younger generation is making sense of. And I think they're actually doing that really beautifully.
30:30 Michelle Obama? I do, too.
30:30 Speaker 03 And I've learned so much from the gender conversation and how it's expanded. I've learned so much about myself and what are the expectations that I didn't know were expectations about being a woman? That I'm like, oh, I don't need to own that because I just thought that was a given. But now I know it's not, you know? But I think the societal norm, yes. I mean, I had a guy say to me recently, yeah, you can't make a man do anything he doesn't want to do. But culturally, you can make a woman do a lot of things she doesn't want to do because we're trained culturally to acquiesce in that way, that that's our role, that we are... But I mean, this guy Ronan, I love the question because, first of all, what I'll say to Ronan is, no one knows you better than you.
31:15 Michelle Obama? That's right.
31:16 Speaker 03 And your friends can have all the suggestions in the world, and some of them might be helpful ones, and some of them might be ones you want to consider. And then I think the thing that you have to do is ask yourself, does that feel right for me? Does that really feel like what's gonna get the growth to happen?
31:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
31:32 Speaker 03 And sometimes not dating helps people discover that. And sometimes dating is the thing that helps people discover that.
31:39 Michelle Obama? Well, and it's interesting when, I think, to your point, Craig, when you were, you had your 32 list item, that was all about Kelly, right? I mean, and that's sometimes what we do.
31:55 Michelle Obama? Forget you. I think that's what a lot of people do. It's like, there's a list of things that I need in the other person.
32:01 Craig Robinson? Right.
32:02 Michelle Obama? And I'm, and, and some of the, a lot of them are superficial, like height and career and income and what school you went to, right? But it's all about the other person meeting a checklist. What Ronan's friends are suggesting and what I agree on is like, okay, there's that list about the other person, but what's your list? What is your 32-point list about yourself that you need to explore? And I think a lot of men.
32:34 Speaker 03 Don't.
32:34 Michelle Obama? And I, I hate to generalize like that, but you know, so many women are self-reflective in our groups. We, we live in conversation. We live in a social world where we're constantly analyzing ourselves and each other in our conversations. This is the dialogue of women and men aren't doing that as much. I think the younger generation is doing it more.
32:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, I do see a lot more of it. I see a lot of it online and I really celebrate it. I think it's beautiful to see men have these deeper conversations about who they are and what they want. But the norm is no. And then the other thing to me is the invitation, right? It's like, yes, that's the cultural norm, but the invitation is really to remind everyone, men and women, to take into account who they are. And what is important to you? You know, is, is somebody's height the most important thing to you? And why?
33:26 Michelle Obama? Why?
33:27 Speaker 03 Is it because of what other people see? Or is it because of you? You know what I mean? Like, what is it? And I think those reflective questions not only help you in dating, they just help you in life.
33:37 Craig Robinson? So let's help, Ron. What are some of these questions he should be asking himself?
33:42 Michelle Obama? Well, you know, just like in developing your life, when I talk to young people, it's like, who do you want to be? What do you care about? And, and not what do you want to do? Not what title you want to have, but how do you want to show up in the world? What's important to you? Is it kindness? Is it empathy?
34:03 Speaker 03 Is it money?
34:04 Michelle Obama? Is it money? Yeah, for some people it is. For some people it's security, financial security. Some, it's emotional security.
34:14 Speaker 03 Is it, is it important for honesty?
34:17 Michelle Obama? For, for me, for example, like I knew that. You know, you date enough people, you date people that just cheat. Right? And one thing I learned, luckily, I learned it soon, I realized that cheating, if I was dating a cheater, that had nothing to do with me. You know, because like, I am not inherently a cheater or a liar. I mean, I would never, I would rather just look somebody in the face and say, we should break up because I'm thinking about dating somebody else. And I'm not going to hold you hostage while I go experience stuff. So I had to pick somebody who had the same values about that as I do. Right? I didn't want to be married or date somebody that I have to worry about, who are you texting? What's on your phone?
35:02 Speaker 03 Where that trust is not an anchor.
35:04 Michelle Obama? That trust is not there. And, and because it was important to them, not because it was important to me.
35:10 Speaker 03 But they were the same.
35:11 Michelle Obama? That they, that they had the same quality, you know? That was way more important to me than what career, what, you know? Because I had dated people who were broken, in my opinion, broken in that way. And it's like, that's not fun to me, you know? Guessing whether my partner is faithful. Like, some people are, are good with that game.
35:32 Speaker 03 Yes, yes, some people that engages their chemistry. I don't know. And, and I have no judgment, really. Like, there's things for people. Everybody has different values around those things and what's important. Some people don't want deep conversation.
35:46 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
35:46 Speaker 03 Some people, that is not their thing. It feels invasive. It feels uncomfortable. Some people do, you know? I also think for Ronan, um, I have come to really know that there's a big difference in somebody that I am looking at dating as a partner and somebody that's somebody to enjoy and take what I like and leave the rest.
36:07 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
36:08 Speaker 03 And I learned, as I've gotten older, like, chemistry is not a relationship.
36:14 Michelle Obama? Ooh, say that again.
36:15 Speaker 03 Chemistry is not a relationship.
36:17 Michelle Obama? Yes.
36:17 Speaker 03 And love does not always include chemistry.
36:21 Michelle Obama? Yes.
36:21 Speaker 03 And I'm somebody who wants both. Now, everybody's not like that. Some people are, really don't want a, a sort of the passionate chemistry of, you know, intimate, um, physical energy. That's not their thing.
36:36 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
36:37 Speaker 03 And you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who that's their, one of the ways they communicate love.
36:42 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
36:42 Speaker 03 You know? Like, for example, I have Um, male friends. I have one that we literally text and it's not flirting. And it's all clothes.
36:54 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
36:55 Speaker 03 And fashion and shopping.
36:56 Craig Robinson? Oh, all clothes.
36:57 Speaker 03 And it's like a version of a relationship. He's the sexiest little thing.
37:01 Michelle Obama? Mm hmm.
37:02 Speaker 03 He's young.
37:03 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
37:03 Speaker 03 There's never been anything physical.
37:05 Michelle Obama? Right.
37:05 Speaker 03 But we have this amazing like exchange that happens all the time.
37:10 Michelle Obama? And I don't have that with my husband.
37:11 Speaker 03 No, no.
37:12 Michelle Obama? I, I, that sounds fun.
37:14 Speaker 03 But that's fun, right? It's like so fun and I'm single. Then, then I have, I have a friend I go to the movies with. You know what I mean? And then there's people that so.
37:22 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
37:22 Speaker 03 And there's, and obviously if I end up in a relationship with someone, those probably will not continue.
37:27 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
37:28 Speaker 03 You know, those different things, but my friendships will continue. Cause you also can't expect your partner to be everything.
37:35 Michelle Obama? That's right.
37:35 Craig Robinson? All right. So this is perfect. So what, you know, how do we help Ronan become a better, a better subject for women? How, how do we help him make himself into a more attractive?
37:49 Speaker 03 Well, I think he sounds like he's attractive. He's having no problems dating. So what I'll say.
37:54 Craig Robinson? But he's not, it's not sticking.
37:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, but that could be timing.
37:57 Michelle Obama? That could be timing.
37:58 Craig Robinson? Okay, all right.
37:59 Michelle Obama? That could be him, you know, that could be him just not choosing. He may not be ready to really settle down.
38:05 Speaker 03 The other big thing I'm gonna say, look, I'm 52. I don't know. You know what I mean?
38:10 Michelle Obama? Well, this program is, it's in my opinion. You don't have to know. We just have our deeply held opinions about Ronan's life.
38:18 Speaker 03 Exactly. But this is what I'm saying. I, I might not meet a partner.
38:24 Michelle Obama? Yeah, okay.
38:25 Speaker 03 I'm saying, like, I know there's this assumption, right? And the assumption is if you don't, there's something wrong with you. I don't agree.
38:33 Craig Robinson? I, I, I agree with you not agreeing with that.
38:35 Speaker 03 You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, no, I don't, that's, no.
38:38 Craig Robinson? Right.
38:38 Speaker 03 I'm, I'm a great match and a great catch and all those things, but I also am gonna wait for the right person. So to Ronan, I would say, let yourself own the fact that you want a relationship. And you are gonna do all the things you know how to do to walk towards that. And if it doesn't, if you don't find the right person, it's not a reflection of you.
39:01 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
39:02 Speaker 03 If you're doing all the right things, you know what I mean? Like, I think that's the first thing I would say to Ronan. The second thing is, ask yourself the question, is dating helping you get towards what you want? Or is it actually distracting you because there's enough drama? That you're not having the courage to say, this is what I want. I had a friend who was dating recently and the guy is out of a divorce and there's just some stuff going on. And they really like each other, but he's kind of in a hallway. And she said, which I thought was the most courageous and beautiful thing, why don't you call me when you're out of the hallway?
39:38 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
39:39 Speaker 03 You know?
39:39 Michelle Obama? When you find a room.
39:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, when you find a room and like, if you still think I'm somebody that could be in that room with you, then give me a call. I mean, I said to someone I was dating recently, like, I've come to realize that you are not a loving match for me. As much as I love you.
39:54 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
39:55 Speaker 03 And so I'm gonna-
39:56 Craig Robinson? That is a cold, nice, cold-blooded cut right there.
40:01 Speaker 03 See, I thought, I'm all like, that's so true.
40:04 Michelle Obama? I know, right?
40:05 Speaker 03 Crazy like that, it's Mr. Nice Guy.
40:08 Michelle Obama? I didn't hear from him for a while.
40:10 Craig Robinson? I bet. He's still trying to figure that out.
40:13 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, he made his bed before when he wasn't showing up the way he should have. I gave him enough tries. And the crazy thing is for me, when, it takes a lot for somebody to get inside my heart and feel safe. Once you get in there, it's so hard for me to get you out. And I have to really give myself time. And that's the other thing I would say to Ronan about him sort of pining around this old relationship. Remember that in memory, you remember the good stuff.
40:35 Michelle Obama? That's right.
40:35 Speaker 03 So it's not always the full picture. There's a reason that didn't work and you can trust that. And the right relationship, there's nothing you can do to make it stop. Like, it will resurface itself if it's meant to be.
40:48 Michelle Obama? Well, that's the, I think that's really great, solid advice. I think there are a lot of people who- Put too much pressure on trying to find everything in one person. I don't know if that's Ronan's issue. But if it is, I'd encourage him to, you know, be a little more open and to understand that relationships are long and there are also ebbs and flows, right? So I think sometimes people who date don't realize that, you know, in long-term relationships, you're gonna, you're gonna have deep, deep dips and you're gonna have- You're gonna have a bad year. You're gonna have a bad, I tell people and folks think that this is harsh. It's like, you're gonna have a bad decade. Yeah.
41:29 Michelle Obama? You know, I mean, I've been married to my husband for 30-plus years. I mean, the truth is, if you add it all up, even the year, having-
41:37 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
41:38 Michelle Obama? If, if the odds were, you're gonna be married to your partner for 50 years and 10 of those years could be bad, you know? That's-
41:47 Craig Robinson? You'd sign up for it.
41:47 Michelle Obama? You'd sign up for it.
41:48 Craig Robinson? You'd sign up for it.
41:49 Michelle Obama? You know, and that's really how it works out. That's the reality of it. The reality is, is that if you choose to have a traditional marriage and you have kids, let me tell you, the years of one to 13 will be bad for you as a, an adult, you know? Because it's beautiful, but they'll- But it's, yeah. They'll take you for a loop and you love them and you don't wanna hate them because they're cute, so you're gonna be mad at the person who is sitting next to you, the other adult. The one who helped you make it. The one who helped you make it, you know? So that's, that accounts for just a decade, right? I think people don't think about that as they date because they're trying to find the
42:31 Michelle Obama? match that where all those 30 years are gonna be blissful. Yeah, that's crazy. And it's like, that's just not gonna happen. Can I just ask what some of the 32 things on the list were?
42:41 Craig Robinson? Yes.
42:41 Michelle Obama? Of the questions?
42:42 Craig Robinson? Yes, you can.
42:43 Michelle Obama? I'm just so curious.
42:44 Craig Robinson? Yes, you can.
42:44 Michelle Obama? Is that okay? Is that valid?
42:45 Craig Robinson? It's okay.
42:46 Michelle Obama? Is that a valid question? You're okay to answer that? That is so good.
42:48 Craig Robinson? It is good. It is good. You just-
42:50 Michelle Obama? It might help Ronan.
42:51 Craig Robinson? It might help Ronan.
42:52 Michelle Obama? And me. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what they were.
42:55 Craig Robinson? So-
42:56 Michelle Obama? What was number, item 30?
42:57 Craig Robinson? So I, I can, I guarantee you Kelly still has the list.
43:01 Michelle Obama? Oh, that's fantastic. We should get her on the phone.
43:04 Craig Robinson? It was, it was, it was significant. But she has this one thing that I didn't have on my list, but I would put on my list now, is are you comfortable with me being able to stand alone in a room?
43:22 Michelle Obama? Do I say that again?
43:24 Craig Robinson? Are you, are you comfortable with me being able to stand alone in a room? So to your point, you have this full life and you have this aura about you that if, if, we're going somewhere, and the same with you, we go into a room, we might not be right next
43:40 Michelle Obama? We're not gonna be coupled to coupled.
43:41 Craig Robinson? We're not gonna be coupled to coupled.
43:43 Michelle Obama? You go one in.
43:43 Craig Robinson? Are you okay with me standing alone? Cause I can stand alone. I was like, oh, okay.
43:48 Michelle Obama? I love that question. So that was her question to you or your question to her?
43:53 Craig Robinson? That was one of her questions to me.
43:55 Michelle Obama? That's a great question.
43:56 Craig Robinson? That wasn't, that was the one that was, that was not a category.
44:00 Michelle Obama? I'm gonna throw that at one of the people I'm dating right now.
44:02 Craig Robinson? Yes.
44:03 Michelle Obama? Look out, mister, whoever you are.
44:05 Craig Robinson? And I said, it's so important to me, especially the way my family is, for you to be able to stand alone. So that's a great one.
44:13 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
44:14 Craig Robinson? And then there were sort of the-
44:16 Michelle Obama? That's a really good one.
44:17 Speaker 01 I love that question, actually.
44:18 Craig Robinson? And then, and then the one that we spent the most time on were, what are your deal breakers? What, what is it that you can absolutely not stand? So I can make sure that none of them are like my favorite thing to do.
44:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah, that's really smart.
44:32 Craig Robinson? Yeah, yeah, and, and I will tell you, this was a-
44:36 Michelle Obama? I just like the way you put it though, because you know, it's, it's sort of innocently sweet and it's not so hard over the head. Like, can you stand alone in a room?
44:44 Speaker 01 That's why I like the question, cause I would ask that all wrong.
44:47 Michelle Obama? Right, that's just the thing.
44:49 Speaker 01 I would ask that same question.
44:51 Michelle Obama? Are you an insecure trifling ass?
44:52 Speaker 01 That is exactly right.
44:53 Michelle Obama? Are you so insecure?
44:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:55 Michelle Obama? That you can't handle a strong-
44:56 Speaker 01 Are you uncomfortable with my bigness?
44:57 Michelle Obama? You know, and then-
44:59 Speaker 01 I've been asking all wrong. He would be squashed from the start.
45:02 Craig Robinson? Cause I am a boss, I am a boss.
45:04 Speaker 01 I'm a boss, are you okay being the-
45:06 Michelle Obama? Can you level up? Can you level up? And then he's running away going, I don't-
45:12 Speaker 01 She's aggressive.
45:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, that was really helpful.
45:17 Michelle Obama? Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.
45:20 Craig Robinson? And the one thing, to bring it back to Ronan, is it actually better for Ronan to learn more about himself by not dating than dating a whole bunch of people? Because in the question, he's asking the question, should I just not date?
45:37 Speaker 03 Well, I think it depends because I don't think we have enough information from Ronan, right? Like, when he says distracting, what kind of distracting? So that's why I posed the question back to him of, you have to ask yourself some questions to figure out, is that the right advice for you?
45:53 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
45:53 Speaker 03 Are you learning enough from dating that's actually giving you the right information about yourself? Or is the dating actually taking you off course? Because you're getting invested in the drama of things aren't working out or are working out.
46:05 Michelle Obama? Tracy, I think that's a good point for everyone. Are people dating with intentionality? You know, to learn something, right? Or people just out there? And if you're not reflecting on why you picked somebody, you know, why the dinner went well, you know, why you laughed, and it is just happening to you without, you know, for men and women, for anybody of any sexual preference, it's like doing some self-assessment through the process, I would encourage, you know? Because we're not taught to do that either in dating.
46:42 Speaker 03 I agree.
46:43 Michelle Obama? You know, there's no guide.
46:44 Speaker 03 Did he call again?
46:45 Michelle Obama? Exactly. You know, where did you go? Where did he take you? And are we asking?
46:49 Speaker 03 What does he do?
46:50 Michelle Obama? Right, are we asking questions of how do you feel? Why did you feel that way? Why did this relationship end? I think that may be what Ronan's friends are suggesting, and he can do that, and he can do both.
47:02 Speaker 03 Yes, he can.
47:03 Michelle Obama? He can date and can, but be more reflective about the process. And I think that's true for everyone.
47:10 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:11 Michelle Obama? If you want to have a partner, you've got to know yourself.
47:14 Speaker 03 Yep.
47:15 Michelle Obama? It's dating and having an internal conversation.
47:18 Speaker 03 Agreed.
47:19 Michelle Obama? About why, your whys, your motivations, your history, your fears. What are you, you know, what are you mimicking? You know, like Craig, you were imitating what? You thought your mom and dad had, and you did that more than me. I was more like, I'm, I don't know if I want to be like them. You know, loved them, loved their marriage, but I, I, I didn't date for, I want to do what my mom and dad did. I think Craig, you're more that kind of, this is the way it works.
47:50 Craig Robinson? It was, it was a, a pattern or a strategy. The strategy is you go to college, you find a job, you have some single life. And then you get married. And I was just sort of checking off the, the, I was, I was following a strategy and that's just not.
48:11 Michelle Obama? Or an expectation to do that. I don't want any, I want this generation of young people to be more thoughtful.
48:18 Speaker 03 Yeah. And thoughtful from an internal compass is my thing. I always ask myself, when I leave any situation, date included, how do I feel after? Do I feel, because sometimes you can think it's really nice in that moment and you leave. And I was like, wait, why do I feel small? Why do I feel more insecure? Or do you feel good about yourself? Another question I, I do like to ask people is, how do you argue?
48:45 Michelle Obama? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.
48:46 Craig Robinson? That was on the list. That was on the list.
48:49 Michelle Obama? That was 12.
48:50 Craig Robinson? Yeah, that was on the list. That's a good one.
48:52 Speaker 03 It's a good one, you know, because like my siblings, we all, there's a way that my family argues that I'm comfortable with. And I've been, because I get loud and then it's done. Like I'm so straightforward. I'm not somebody who's going to like hold it, like I'm going to say it. For some people, that's terrifying.
49:07 Michelle Obama? Yes.
49:08 Speaker 03 It's terrifying and sort of sends them into another place. So those are, I just think all those kinds of questions. And asking them both of the other person and of yourself.
49:21 Michelle Obama? And it's not always a deal breaker. It's just something to be aware of because it will be a thing that you will need to work on in the relationship. That's what makes relationship, marriage, partnership so hard because you are taking. Two independent people with a whole different set of experiences and saying, you know, forever and ever, amen. Marriage is hard.
49:45 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:45 Michelle Obama? And it is reasonably hard, you know?
49:49 Speaker 03 It's the right kind of hard.
49:51 Michelle Obama? It's the right kind of hard, but don't get upset when it's hard, you know?
49:55 Speaker 03 Well, I mean, you know, social media has made a myth of so many things because life requires you to show up.
50:02 Michelle Obama? That's right.
50:03 Speaker 03 And if you want anything out of it, it's gonna be work, you know? And relationships included. Someone told me this great just metaphor of imagine that the people you're closest to, you're gonna step on each other's toes. And so how do you work out the stepping on toes? Do you just blame them?
50:20 Michelle Obama? That's right.
50:21 Speaker 03 Or do you figure out how to not step on each other's toes? Or is that just the nature of what a relationship brings? And then how do you work those things through and work those things out?
50:32 Michelle Obama? And it's important for Ronan to understand that it's work.
50:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:35 Michelle Obama? Because sometimes, maybe for men, or if they can be choosers, or people in general, they think something, that there's something wrong in the dating process. And it's like, nah, it's just, you know, what it means to be with somebody else.
50:50 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:50 Michelle Obama? It's complicated, it's hard, it requires compromise, it requires you to change and adapt all throughout the process, you know? You can't just come in and say, well, this is who I am, you know? And this is, these are my habits. So some of the list is important, but when you couple, you will not be able to find the exact right person who just balances you on all those 32 points.
51:14 Craig Robinson? Exactly.
51:15 Michelle Obama? It's just, you know, then you will be alone and that's okay, too.
51:19 Speaker 03 Or you're gonna try and date yourself, which you don't wanna do.
51:22 Michelle Obama? And that won't be fun because you'll find out all the worst parts of yourself and you will be divorced from yourself.
51:28 Speaker 03 Do you have this, you as the man in your relationship, as, since we've been talking about it from our perspective, do you feel that you have continued to grow in your current marriage and that it asks that of you?
51:42 Craig Robinson? Absolutely, because it sounds like the list was my list, but the discussion that it brought continues to happen to this day. That's what's so beautiful about it because I can tell the growth comes because when we go to dinner on our date nights. We're talking as if we have not had just met. Like, we are always talking. And it's, and so I've just gotten better at being in a relationship. And, and, and that's what I.
52:14 Speaker 03 That's, that's a really nice thing to say. Like, I've gotten better at being in a relationship.
52:18 Craig Robinson? That's why, in our opinion, we're, in, in, in my opinion, the show is like, let's teach everybody how to get better at this.
52:25 Michelle Obama? Or to know that it's something, it's an important muscle to build.
52:29 Craig Robinson? Perfect time to give Ronan some takeaways.
52:33 Speaker 03 Okay, okay.
52:34 Craig Robinson? And, and I'm gonna.
52:36 Speaker 03 You're the master takeaway.
52:37 Michelle Obama? You took notes.
52:38 Speaker 03 Come on, code, do it.
52:39 Michelle Obama? Tell us.
52:40 Craig Robinson? The self-reflection has to be at the top.
52:42 Speaker 03 Yes.
52:43 Craig Robinson? Self-reflection has to be at the top. And Tracy, you said something that was really interesting. Do you even want to be, have a connection with?
52:53 Speaker 03 Chemistry, chemistry and love, yeah.
52:55 Craig Robinson? Chemistry and love? Or is this just a, I'm not in love with you?
52:59 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
53:00 Craig Robinson? Kind of thing?
53:01 Speaker 03 What's important to him in a relationship?
53:03 Craig Robinson? What's important to him? And then the third thing that I had, and Meech, you said this, is you have to do the extra work. In, in, in not only being in the relationship, but trying to find a relationship.
53:18 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm. And I, can I reframe that?
53:20 Craig Robinson? Yes, you can reframe that.
53:21 Speaker 03 So, let's just call it the work. Cause it's not extra work. That's just the work it takes.
53:26 Craig Robinson? Okay.
53:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
53:27 Craig Robinson? Do the work.
53:27 Speaker 03 Yeah.
53:28 Craig Robinson? Do the work.
53:28 Michelle Obama? And I have one last thing. It's, uh, and there's no one right way to live a life. I mean, maybe, Ronan, you don't choose a life partner. Or it doesn't happen, or you don't find it. There's so many ways to be happy, and it doesn't just look like marriage, two kids, and a house. There's so many examples of people who live full, wonderful lives. That aren't following the quote unquote, "traditional" path. And I just want Ronan not to force something that isn't there.
54:06 Speaker 03 Yeah.
54:06 Michelle Obama? It's like stars aligning. It may not happen. So, now the work is, how are you happy with the life that's right before you? That's what I want for my daughters.
54:16 Speaker 03 Yeah.
54:17 Michelle Obama? That's what I'm raising them to be, is like, how are you happy with how, like, is working out right at this moment? So that you're not living in regret, or living in, I wish. Or holding up your life, you know? So when you're waiting for it to happen, you know, in the meantime, Ronan, live.
54:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
54:36 Michelle Obama? Live, grow, adapt for your own self.
54:41 Speaker 03 Yeah, and if there are those things that you are like longing to do with a partner, are there versions of that you can do with yourself? Which is, which is the thing that I have really discovered in my life. I'm like, all right, so how can I do that on my own? While still dating.
54:55 Michelle Obama? Mm hmm.
54:56 Speaker 03 Well, Tracy. What a fun conversation.
54:58 Michelle Obama? I love you.
54:59 Speaker 03 I love you right back.
55:00 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
55:01 Speaker 03 This was so nice.
55:02 Craig Robinson? This was so nice. Thank you for doing this.
55:03 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah, and you know, your vulnerability, your willingness to share, be open. Always refreshing.
55:11 Speaker 03 Thanks.
55:11 Michelle Obama? So, see ya.
55:12 Speaker 03 That's my currency.
55:13 Michelle Obama? That's what you get. You do it. You use it well. Thanks so much.
55:17 Craig Robinson? I'm back soon.
55:18 Speaker 03 I will.
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