Accept Your Parents’ Limits with Bruce Springsteen

Legendary musician Bruce Springsteen joins Michelle (Craig is out sick!) to answer a question from a listener who is struggling with her relationship to her father. Bruce talks about therapy and how it helped him become a better father to his kids. Michelle talks about the joy of having an adult relationship with her children, and Bruce shares advice on how to accept the limits of other people. Plus! A special musical interlude from Michelle. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I loved my father deeply throughout my entire life. Throughout the last 10 years of his life, he was able to see my children.

• 0:07Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  And we had one interaction that made the world of difference to me. I was, Patty and I were gonna have our first, first son. And daddy came down, visited me one day, and, and we were living in Los Angeles. He just knocks on my door, this is my dad, you know, doesn't tell me he's coming. Comes down from San Francisco. He comes in, wants a beer. It's 11:00 in the morning, I give him a beer, I take one for myself. And he looks at me and says, hey, you know, you've really been very good to us.

• 0:43Michelle Obama?

  Mm.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  I says, yeah, Pa, it was, it's my pleasure, you know, it was, it's why you got us the house. I wasn't very good to you.

• 0:53Michelle Obama?

  Uh-huh.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  He looks at me, and I said, well, you did the best you could.

• 1:05Michelle Obama?

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance and Pine-Sol. Well, I have the special honor of having one of my dear friends join me for this conversation. He needs no introduction, cuz everybody knows this dude.

• 1:29Michelle Obama?

  20-time Grammy winner, Hall of Fame, all that, blah-da-da-da-da. The one and only Bruce Springsteen, thank you for, for being here and taking time off your tour. You're in the middle of touring.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  It is my pleasure.

• 1:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. Last time I saw you was onstage in Barcelona.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  That's right, and you did an excellent job as a backup singer, may I say.

• 1:54Michelle Obama?

  Say that one more time, just for the record.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  You did an excellent job as a backup singer.

• 2:00Michelle Obama?

  That was the coolest.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  And tambourinas.

• 2:02Michelle Obama?

  The tambour, I, I think I worked the tambourine pretty good.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  You did.

• 2:06Michelle Obama?

  That was a surreal experience, being onstage with you, singing our hearts out. That was, that was a real, a lot of fun. And I told you about this, like, you play for three hours.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  What else can I do?

• 2:23Michelle Obama?

  I, you know, you could do two, you could do, but you played for three hours non-stop. Non-stop. I mean, you don't talk much.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:35Michelle Obama?

  You, you sing through and move through the whole thing. It's incredible to watch you perform.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  We put the pedal to the metal from first note to last.

• 2:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and blow everybody out of the water. And the other thing I love is just the diversity of your crowds. I mean, you've got folks in their eighties and ten-year-olds singing every note, every lyric.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  That's pretty, it's amazing, you know, and, uh, what can I say, with my best friends every night and been doing it for 50 years with the same guys. That's, that's a magic act right there.

• 3:15Michelle Obama?

  You know, it, it's, there's a little bit of magic, but there's a little bit of truth. Um, and look, everybody knows you as the great Bruce Springsteen, but you are truly one of my favorite people as a person.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Ah, kid, kid.

• 3:34Michelle Obama?

  You know, I mean, I, I say this behind your back, I say it to your wife, but you know, you're, you're just the real deal. You are, you are a solid man, a solid human being. Um, I've seen you as a, as a caring husband, as a loving father, and you just became a grandfather.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 4:00Michelle Obama?

  You know, and you, you work at it, you know? I don't think it's magic. The loyalty that your fans and your band members show you, that's not magic, that's work, because that's who you are.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. If, if you want the stability and if you want the depth of those lifelong friendships and partnerships, you know, you're not gonna get it without working at it, you know? When I was young, I said, oh, you know, I, I says, well, I got really good at playing the guitar. Oh, I should be great at, uh, being a partner for someone. And I realized, oh, wait a minute, I spent. Thousands of hours learning the guitar.

• 4:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  And finally, I realized, hey, I gotta put the time in. And, you know, we got three great kids and Patty and I are both, you know, we came out of complicated families. And so you get the great reward of seeing your children unburdened by a lot of the toxicity that you had to work your way through. You know, what is your goal? Your goal is let me work my way through this so you won't have to. Let your sins be your own.

• 5:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  For your children. Let them have their own mistakes. Just don't make my mistakes over again.

• 5:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. But that's a rare, it's a rare thing. I mean, it's rare that people don't pass their stuff on. And that's one of the things that, that's why I marvel at you and Patty and the work that you all have done because you, you, you learn those lessons. You and Patty have been couple mentors for me and Barack for quite some time.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  Whoa, all right.

• 5:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, watching you guys do the work, getting advice on how to keep those lines of communication open. You got two powerful people in you and Patty. You know, your own powerhouses in your own right and merging those lives together. For all those reasons, you were the perfect person to be here to discuss this, this wonderful question from one of our listeners. Her name is Alex. She's 24 year old woman.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:31Michelle Obama?

  And she, you know, is struggling with the relationship with a father. But I think our, our listeners would, would love to hear some of your wisdom on, on, on the challenge that Alex is facing. So let's listen to the question.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Hi, Michelle. My name is Alex. I'm 24 years old and I live in Oakland, California. My parents divorced when I was a young kid, and I've always had kind of a complicated relationship with my dad. In middle school and high school, I saw my dad every week as part of the divorce schedule. But as an adult, his life is almost completely separate from mine. We talk on the phone kind of every couple of months, but I see him only every year or two. He remarried my stepmother while my sister and I were still pretty young. And now my dad and stepmom and two step siblings are kind of their own family unit, while my sister and I really feel more like their cousins who get invited in only occasionally. My main issue with my dad is that I just really want him to visit me in Oakland.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I've lived here for three years, and he's not come to see me once. I'd love him to meet my boyfriend and my friends and my cat and show him the life I've built for myself. He says he will, but he just doesn't come. I've told him directly how I want us to be more involved in each other's lives, but he does not reciprocate. What makes this hardest is that I love spending time with my dad. As much as he's hurt my feelings, when we're together, it's so easy. We love the same things, and he makes me feel like the smartest version of myself. When we argue, it's only over how I want him to give more of an effort. I'm worried that now that I'm an adult, we'll just grow further apart. And I kind of know he won't really be the parent I need him to be.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  So my question to you is, how do I move forward from this? How do you accept someone who you care so much about giving you less than what you need from them?

• 8:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and I feel for Alex. But I think her question... Unfortunately, there are a lot of young people, a lot of people who are struggling with this father dynamic all over the... not just all over the country, all over the world. You know, kids trying to figure out how to build those relationships with fathers who aren't there, can't be there, choose not to be there. So I know that a lot of listeners can relate to where Alex is. But Bruce, why don't we just jump in? What do you think?

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Uh, this is a tough position to be in.

• 9:19Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  And I kinda grew up with an absentee father in the house.

• 9:24Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  You know, my entire life was sort of waiting for him to shine on me in one way or another.

• 9:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  I didn't, when you're young, you don't realize that's, I don't think that's gonna happen. He wasn't, he simply wasn't well enough. He was, my dad struggled with a lot of mental illness. And which we didn't know until, cause it's the 50s. We didn't know until much later. But as a child, it was incredibly, incredibly painful. And she's only 24. And at 24, I was still struggling with all of this.

• 10:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  But she's in an interesting position because she says that her father lights her up when they're together.

• 10:08Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  But doesn't seem to wanna take the full responsibility of a parent, you know? So you're sort of left in between a rock and a hard place, you know? How do you accept someone you care about giving you less than what you need from them?

• 10:26Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, is that a thing that you do, you know? I mean, I would tell Alex that it's not just her burden, you know?

• 10:35Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 10:36Michelle Obama?

  To bear. It's a tough thing trying to get a grown up to do what's right by a kid who's just developing.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  No, I think one of the most difficult things to do is realizing that relationships have their limits.

• 10:53Michelle Obama?

  Mm.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Sometimes there are simply no great choices.

• 10:57Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  We all wanna love our parents. At the same time, there are irretrievable relationships.

• 11:04Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  There are relationships that simply are not gonna function. The thing that I found was helpful, even with my father's illness. And it sounds like she's done this, but it's worth reiterating that communicating honestly and directly as you can to with that person.

• 11:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  When my father got very ill, he got lost. I had to go find him in Los Angeles, brought him back home. And the only thing I could tell him, I says, "Look Dad, you know, you have to understand that Mom needs you.

• 11:42Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  I need you in my life."

• 11:46Speaker 00

  And I tried to be as directly as I could with my father in letting him know how important he was. And just in my heart and in my soul, you know? And hope that he would be able to respond to that.

• 12:06Michelle Obama?

  And that's a brave thing. It's a bold thing to ask a kid to do. And I'd still see Alex at 24 as a kid.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:16Michelle Obama?

  Right?

• 12:16Speaker 00

  24, you're a kid.

• 12:18Michelle Obama?

  You're still a kid. And to be able to look someone that you look up to in the eye and tell them and admit to them that they've hurt you.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:28Michelle Obama?

  You know? And to even admit that need, right?

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:32Michelle Obama?

  That's a vulnerable thing. That's a vulnerable position that Alex has to be mature enough to put herself in.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 12:41Michelle Obama?

  But I think what you're saying is true that by doing that, even if it's tough, it's unburdening for her. So that at least she's on record. You know, as uncomfortable as it may make her feel, it's important for her well-being to have it stated plain and to not assume that he understands, to say those words out loud that

• 13:08Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 13:09Michelle Obama?

  "I need you and I'm hurt when you're not here."

• 13:13Speaker 00

  That's right. I know that was valuable for me. And I think that helped my father understand his own value, which was a problem.

• 13:31Craig Robinson?

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• 14:55Craig Robinson?

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• 15:58Craig Robinson?

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• 16:45Speaker 00

  Really, you have to lay it out there? And in doing so, she's showing more maturity than her dad. And make an effort to understand, well, he remarried, he has another family. You can look at like your previous family is a failed family in some way. And that can bring a lot of guilt, a lot of your own sense of failure. And he needs the maturity to understand that she has this beautiful daughter and.

• 17:17Michelle Obama?

  And you don't just get to walk away.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  No, you gotta be accountable. Hey, once, you know, you signed your name on the dotted line, you know?

• 17:26Michelle Obama?

  So. You said, you used the term when you described your father as he was absentee in the home. There are the people who just disappear. They don't show up, but you make a point that there's also, there's also an absence that can be felt when people are there.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:49Michelle Obama?

  And that can be just as painful.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  People write you out of the picture using a variety of devices. One was, in my case, my dad was quite a drinker, you know? And that took up a lot of his time. He was busy doing that a lot. And one of the things that Patty taught me was she says, listen, you can't just be here, you gotta be present. I used to think, well, wait a minute, I got a song to write. I'm thinking these great thoughts. You know, come on, you're getting away from my great thoughts, you know? And. And I learned that like, well, if you got a good song, it'll be there tomorrow, you know? But the kids, they're gonna be gone.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  They're not gonna be there tomorrow.

• 18:37Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  You know? That relatively quickly, they rush through your life. And even if you remain close to them, they're out the door and they're leading their own lives now. I always remember I had a discussion with my oldest son at one point where I felt that I had taught him. Like if I asked him to do something, I had signaled him that I wanted him to say no.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  If I asked you to do something, you know, it's always, oh, maybe later dad, or maybe this. I think I taught you to do that.

• 19:15Michelle Obama?

  You mean just spending time together?

• 19:17Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 19:18Michelle Obama?

  Or, yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  That's right, because...

• 19:19Michelle Obama?

  So he started playing back for you the response.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 19:24Michelle Obama?

  Be unavailable.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 19:26Michelle Obama?

  This is what we do. Dad wants to play ball. Well, you know, this is what my dad says. Maybe later.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  You know, so, so I realized that parenting is pennies in the bank.

• 19:40Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  It's that time when you were working and you didn't want to stop, but you did. That made a huge difference to me. Because if I'd have failed, I always felt if I'd have failed with my kids, I would have failed tremendously in life.

• 19:59Michelle Obama?

  I like what you said, that parenting is pennies in the bank. And that just resonates because I think of, you know, I think of my upbringing. And I've talked about in a lot. You know, we were working class, poor working class family. The father was a city worker. He did not make a lot of money. He did not have a title. He was not famous. He wouldn't be on a regular schedule. We could go for a week and not see him because he was working a shift. But when he was present, he was present in very small but meaningful ways.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Wonderful.

• 20:39Michelle Obama?

  Something as simple, you know, I recall like the special treat before dinner, if he was there or after dinner was that we get him to play a game.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:52Michelle Obama?

  Any kind of game, you know, a tickle game, a card game. And it just felt like such a treat that this big, important man, who had all this responsibility.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:05Michelle Obama?

  Got on the floor and played with us.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:08Michelle Obama?

  He delighted in our presence.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's wonderful.

• 21:12Michelle Obama?

  And what I tell a lot of parents is that a lot of times we work for money and things. Because especially if you're poor, you think, well, if I could give my kids more, we could live in a bigger house, if I could put them in the best schools, if I could give them the nicest sneakers, right?

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:35Michelle Obama?

  That that is going to replace it. But it's the pennies in the bank.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:42Michelle Obama?

  That matter and everybody's got some pennies, you know? Kids don't need the stuff. They just want the pennies, you know?

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Very important.

• 21:54Michelle Obama?

  And I think a lot of men lose sight of the fact that a lot of what they're working towards is just their goals.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:04Michelle Obama?

  And ambition, you know? And I think men should have that. I think everyone, men, women, people have to have their own lives and their own ambitions, but have it and say that's for you. But your kids, they just want pennies.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  They want the pennies.

• 22:20Michelle Obama?

  They really do.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  They do, yeah.

• 22:23Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you're never too poor. To be a father.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  No, to give, you know, time and attention. You know, artists, the worst, the worst, so self-involved.

• 22:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  You know, oh, my God, you know? You get so caught up in your own, your own inner world.

• 22:42Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  You know, because that's where you sought refuge.

• 22:45Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  You know, when, when things weren't working out, when you were younger, you sought refuge in this inner world.

• 22:51Michelle Obama?

  I think the, the point you're making is that, you know, it's, it's easy to get lost in the grandeur of your life.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Exactly, of yourself.

• 23:01Michelle Obama?

  Of yourself.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  I had to deal with a lot of the grandeur of myself.

• 23:06Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, because that's the thing everybody's taught to pursue, you know?

• 23:13Speaker 00

  It's so sad, yeah.

• 23:15Michelle Obama?

  That's, that's the, the brass ring. And that's why parenting is a, is a, it's a group sport.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Big time.

• 23:24Michelle Obama?

  And I think Barack is, just like you, is a tremendous father, doing it in a lot of grandeur, right?

• 23:34Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you're the commander in chief of the United States of America. And so finding that, that balance of, you know, when you, you've got the nuclear code in your grasp and world leaders calling you and big, important, heavy decisions coming at you every day and valets and aides and on and on and security and, oh, it's just all grandeur. Trying to wipe all that stuff away and leave it at the door before you enter, before he would enter the residence of the White House to sit at a dinner table with his two daughters. And only talk about them.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:20Michelle Obama?

  It was important for both of us, for me and Barack, to carve out that time in those eight years, when our girls were in their formative years, you know?

• 24:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:32Michelle Obama?

  They've lived long, Malia and Sasha, in the White House than they've lived in any house.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 24:38Michelle Obama?

  They were formed in that house and around that table, in that residence. And it took a mighty effort to leave the grandeur at the door and to just be there and talk about fifth grade.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:55Michelle Obama?

  And, you know?

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Even in my job, you know, it's like, hey, you're on the road, you're king. You go home, hey, you're the chauffeur. You know, and making that transition can be funny, you know? And everybody has some version of that, you know?

• 25:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  That you need to transition into your domestic life and to be able to transition into your domestic life and to understand who you are there and to identify it. You know, I think, I know in my case, I had a hard time dealing with domesticity, period.

• 25:31Michelle Obama?

  What do you mean by that?

• 25:32Speaker 00

  I was such a spoiled child. Even though we grew up lower middle class, working class.

• 25:39Michelle Obama?

  You were adored.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  I was, yeah, period. Somebody, you know, I was, I was, artists are all the same. One person tells them they're the second coming of baby Jesus. The other person tells them they're not worth a dime and they believe both of them. And it sets up a dynamic that puts the fire in the furnace, you know, for the rest of your life. But, but in Alex's case, it's very difficult. I think she has to find out if her relationship with her father is truly retrievable, if he can respond to her, to her needs. And, and, and he's got to step up and be accountable.

• 26:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Craig Robinson?

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• 30:14Craig Robinson?

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• 30:59Craig Robinson?

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• 31:07Michelle Obama?

  Alex, you know, at 24, it's not too soon to do some analysis.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Not at all.

• 31:15Michelle Obama?

  Because she definitely is in a situation that could mess her up. It could impact her emotional, mental health, her feelings of self-worth if she doesn't get some help working through these feelings, even if it's not with him.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:38Michelle Obama?

  Because like you said, her father may not be capable of giving her what she needs.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:44Michelle Obama?

  And she's got to figure enough of that out. But then, if the answer is no, she still is gonna need some help to deal with that hurt and that rejection. And what I would say to Alex is that that's real, you know? You are not crazy.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's important.

• 32:01Michelle Obama?

  For feeling pained. Your father's actions have done some damage on you.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:09Michelle Obama?

  And if he can't admit it, then I want to hand her that. Because she's not only dealing with his rejection, which is one thing, but the fact that he started a whole nother family.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:21Michelle Obama?

  That he is fathering.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:24Michelle Obama?

  That's an incredibly hurtful thing to watch and experience for her and her sister, for the kids that were left behind.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:34Michelle Obama?

  And I think it's a disservice to not let young people know when they're in a crazy circumstance.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 32:44Michelle Obama?

  You know? It's like, I want to be like, Alex, it's messed up.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:49Michelle Obama?

  Your father is wrong.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:52Michelle Obama?

  You know? He is the adult. He has failed you, and it's not you.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  Well, that's very important. I think when you're young, you know, and I did this myself, is like... If I'm being rejected, well, I must have done something wrong.

• 33:06Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  I'm insufficient in some way. I'm not enough. I don't deserve to be loved. I don't deserve to be parented. You know, I just assumed that that was true.

• 33:18Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  And carried that with me for a long, long, long time, you know, a long time.

• 33:26Michelle Obama?

  What do you think were some of the biggest changes that you made once you said to yourself, I gotta be more present?

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of it was I had to put my work more in perspective, you know?

• 33:41Michelle Obama?

  Say that one more time.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  I had to put my work more in perspective because I realized that I was so fundamentally uncomfortable in so many real-life situations, that I was taking my job, expanding its hours so that it took up most of my day. I was used to this putting an enormous amount of time into someplace where I was comfortable emotionally and mentally, which was basically in the worlds that I was creating. I had to step out of that and put that in perspective. And I was, okay, guess what? I'm only gonna work from 12 to 6. I'm not gonna work after 6 o'clock.

• 34:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna get up at 6:30 a.m. I'm gonna make the kids breakfast and take them to school. I do that every day.

• 34:35Michelle Obama?

  Pennies in the bank.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  You know, pennies, you know? So, and these are things which I would not have done without Patty being there to support me and explain to me, hey, man, you're screwing it up. And not only are you screwing it up, but you yourself are gonna miss it.

• 34:53Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  If you don't get up in the morning when your kids are at their best, you're gonna miss it.

• 34:59Michelle Obama?

  And you lose those years. They go by so fast. Barack didn't struggle in the way that you did. But, you know, with a busy schedule, I used to, whenever I thought he wasn't doing enough, I'd start singing, "Cats in the cradle and the silver spoon." Because that song is so profound, you know? "When you coming home, son, don't know when." I was like, you're gonna look up and the girls will be gone, you know? Because there is a little window that parents don't understand of time when your children even want to be bothered with you.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Well, they're gonna be gone and they are not gonna be taking you with them.

• 35:39Michelle Obama?

  That's right. That's right.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Your time and your ability to influence their inner life and their spiritual life and their emotional life will have come to a close. And if they walk out that door without taking you with them, it's gonna be a tremendous loss in your life.

• 35:57Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm. And that kind of foresight, I don't think a lot of people think about, like the pennies in the bank investment when they're young. And you do still have some influence over their emotional and spiritual and intellectual being. And to know that they come out on the other end as adults whole, able to raise whole grandkids. And how that frees you up later in life so that you can really enjoy your life and not worry about your adult kids screwing up because you weren't there when they needed you, you know? I mean, isn't it really a wonderful thing to be at this stage,

• 36:39Michelle Obama?

  to have three beautiful adults who are out in the world contributing? And you can now have a full relationship with them and watch them parent their own kids?

• 36:52Speaker 00

  I watched my youngest son with his daughter. He's a better dad than I was already, you know? And that gives me great pride, you know, great pride. I go, well, he's really doing it right, you know? And for Alex, taking a long view of things, realizing that these things don't necessarily work themselves out.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  In your desired time, or certainly quickly.

• 37:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  That sometimes you process and work these things out throughout your entire life.

• 37:25Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  And that's how you find peace with them.

• 37:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  And some compassion for your errant parent, or you know, I love my father deeply throughout my entire life. Throughout the last 10 years of his life, he was able to see my children and we had one interaction that made the world of difference to me. I was, Patty and I were gonna have our first, first son. And Patty came down, visited me one day, and we were living in Los Angeles. He just knocks on my door, this is my dad, you know, doesn't tell me he's coming, comes down from San Francisco. He comes in, wants a beer. It's 11:00 in the morning, I give him a beer, I take one for myself.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  And he looks at me and says, hey, you know, you've really been very good to us.

• 38:18Michelle Obama?

  Mm.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  I says, yeah, Pa, it was my pleasure, you know, it was, it's one of you guys, the house, and I wasn't very good to you.

• 38:27Michelle Obama?

  Uh huh.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  He looks at me, and I said, well, you did the best you could, which he did under the circumstances of his illness and, and that was, in a funny way, that one small acknowledgement of the truth.

• 38:47Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Made an enormous, enormous difference to me and my life. I still remain filled with the grace of that moment. And it was, and I feel blessed by the ability to have that moment. And sometimes that's the best that you can, that's the best that you can hope for.

• 39:03Michelle Obama?

  Bruce, that's such, that's just such an important thing for people to remember, because I know there are probably a lot of absentee parents out there listening. And I'm sure some of what happens is that it just gets harder to acknowledge, right?

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:23Michelle Obama?

  You know, the longer it goes, the more the words get lost and stuck in the throat.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:31Michelle Obama?

  And so I'm sure there are people out there who aren't reaching out because they don't even know how to. They think it's too late. And I think this story reminds us all that for kids, it's never too late.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Never too late.

• 39:45Michelle Obama?

  And the acknowledgement can be something as small as, I see you.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:52Michelle Obama?

  I, I, I know that I didn't do my best.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:58Michelle Obama?

  And it's just important for the adults out there to understand that even that little bit of acknowledgement, like the grace of that, as you said, what that did for you, even as you were becoming a father, it wasn't too late.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  No.

• 40:16Michelle Obama?

  And it meant something.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  And like I say, it, it, it ended up being enough for me at the end of the day. And, and, and, but I think it ended up being enough for me because I put all the time in to process through the pain and, and heartbreak, that relationship, it, it cost the two of us, you know? So then, and you have to understand sometimes there's things you're, you know, there were things that my father was totally incapable of. So I love you, but please.

• 40:45Michelle Obama?

  That wasn't gonna happen.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  You know, it's like, and I had to come to, I had, I had, I had to come to peace with the fact that, well, that's, that's my old man, you know, that, that's, and my father was a very funny man. My first divorce, he's taking me to the airport and he says, Bruce, you know, maybe it's time for you to move back home.

• 41:10Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  And I go, Dad, I'm like, I said, I'm 36. I'm a, I'm a self-made, I'm, I'm, I'm a millionaire.

• 41:19Michelle Obama?

  I'm the boss.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't move back home in my room.

• 41:22Michelle Obama?

  I can't move in the basement.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  But you know, I was really glad to be asked.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  I really, really touched you in the ass.

• 41:32Michelle Obama?

  It's like, maybe you need to be with your daddy.

• 41:43Craig Robinson?

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• 42:27Craig Robinson?

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• 43:09Craig Robinson?

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• 45:07Speaker 04

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• 45:09Craig Robinson?

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• 45:33Speaker 00

  I found recognition of my needs in funny places at funny times. They weren't convenient, and they were never going to be, quote, "normal." Alex here says that when she's with her father, it makes her feel like the smartest person in the room. That's a good place to start.

• 45:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. And one thing, I do want to go back to the work that you've done, the therapy that you've done. And I talk to you about this a lot, you know, that it is rare for men.

• 46:05Michelle Obama?

  To get help, to seek counseling. And not only have you done it, but you're very vocal about it. And you're very clear headed about it. You give permission to a lot of men out there who need to do work. They need to do some self reflection and to figure out.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Let me say, when I started, I was embarrassed. You know, I was a child of the 50s.

• 46:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  My dad was a man of the 50s. And we had a lot of mental illness in my family. My aunts, my cousins. It really ran through particularly the Irish side, but the Italian side in some ways also. And no one got any help.

• 46:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  So when I started, and I only started because I hit a wall and really had, looking back on it, was somewhat of a breakdown, you know? And that was, I almost felt like, well, I gotta get help somehow.

• 47:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  But I was totally embarrassed. I would hide. I had the baseball cap and the sunglasses. And I'm looking all around to see if anybody's looking at me.

• 47:19Michelle Obama?

  What office building is he going in?

• 47:22Speaker 00

  And I'm sneaking in the, into the doctor's office. And I'm sneaking out. And I'd say it, but that might've went on for years.

• 47:32Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  You know, that's how, I did feel embarrassed about, you know?

• 47:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  But there was one thing I couldn't argue with. It was working.

• 47:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  It was simply working, you know? And bits and pieces, I was getting better at this and more comfortable with that. So it was really, I just came from a world where that didn't exist, you know? And it took a lot to go initially and to finally to just feel completely relaxed about going. And I was very.

• 48:04Michelle Obama?

  Well, it's still stigmatized. I mean, we still don't, we're doing a better job of it than our parents and our grandparents did, for sure. But it's still, we don't talk about mental health.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  It's like if you were looking for the job of presidency, and someone finds out that you've been in therapy. I don't know of anyone who's done that, hasn't been done. You know, it should be like.

• 48:27Michelle Obama?

  Even though some people should be in therapy who want to be president.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, you think so?

• 48:31Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  So you know, you look at that should be a plus in your corner.

• 48:38Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  It's not a minus, you know, but it's still, it's still an issue. You know, it's still a cultural issue. So.

• 48:46Michelle Obama?

  And I think about how many men would be helped, how many families would be stronger. You know, how many Alexes would, you know, have some level of support and understanding. If we were to understand and embrace the importance of mental health in our lives. Because it's not unique. I mean, we all have people in our lives who, who have real clear mental health issues. Like your father, but it doesn't have to be that extreme. You know, just getting through depression, dealing with the day to day questions.

• 49:28Michelle Obama?

  Even if you had a parent that was there for you, you know, maybe they weren't good at communicating.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:36Michelle Obama?

  Maybe they didn't teach you how to explore your emotions. Maybe your mother, you know, didn't hug you enough. Who knows whatever it is, but we are impacted by the world around us. And it doesn't just affect our physical health. It affects us, our souls and our minds. And I just think it's important for people who, you know, have those looking up to them.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:04Michelle Obama?

  To know, you know, even the coolest dude on the planet.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 50:10Michelle Obama?

  You know, get some help every now and then.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Sure does.

• 50:16Michelle Obama?

  But I think that, you know, if we were to sum up some advice for Alex as we close out this conversation. You know, I think Bruce, one of the things that you said is that, you know, sometimes there isn't a, a nice, neat answer.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  No.

• 50:36Michelle Obama?

  You know, and in Alex's case, she may never find what she needs in her father. Because he may never be capable of giving that to her. And some of this is for the people, if, if there are parents out there who find themselves in this kind of relationship with their children. You know, I think the advice for me wouldn't be for Alex. It's for the parents who are listening. Don't put your child in this kind of situation. You know, if you bring a child on to this earth, be present.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:13Michelle Obama?

  Put in the pennies, you know? You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be trouble free. You know, kids love parents even if they've gone to jail, done some bad things, made some huge mistakes. You still can't replace that love and it is never too late. If you weren't there for the first 10 years, be there for the next and the next and the next.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Well, that was it with my own power. I said, hey, you know, guess what? You know, the things you didn't do so well with me and you got another chance. He's my son.

• 51:51Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  And to see my father interact with my with my son was very, very valuable.

• 51:59Michelle Obama?

  It was healing.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so it's a constant discussion. It's for Alex. It's not something that's necessarily going to be resolved this month or this year. I think if she's not getting that the kind of love that she needs, there's what does she do with her love? You know, where does where does that go? Where does she place that? And also in her her own choosing of a partner.

• 52:31Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Because we're attracted to a lot of the characteristics of our parents. And your peace is something that you have to drive internally yourself and you have to seek out.

• 52:45Michelle Obama?

  You know, I think Alex has some good, you know, she heard it from the boss, you know? Your peace, your inner peace is yours to work on. And it's a gift I hope she cherishes and she gets some help to process it. But thank you for. You know?

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's the advice of a guitar player, anyway.

• 53:06Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, just some guitar player out there.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Whatever good that is for you.

• 53:09Michelle Obama?

  A guitar player who happens to be an amazing father and is a proud grandpapa, too.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Thanks, Michelle.

• 53:21Michelle Obama?

  Thank you. Thank you, Bruce. Thanks for your time and your friendship and your love.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  A pleasure being here with you, and we love you.

• 53:28Michelle Obama?

  All right. We'll see you out there.

• 53:50Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. On this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers really unfold, through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception. They are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.