Forgiving Yourself with Mary J. Blige

Queen of hip-hop soul, Mary J. Blige, joins IMO for an honest conversation about healing, self-worth, and the journey behind her music. She reflects on navigating the music industry at a young age, learning to forgive herself, and how music became her therapy through difficult moments. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  When you said weren't working, what do you mean?

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Like, if something didn't happen, you know, if a record didn't sell, or this didn't happen, or, you know, this didn't get that many, whatever, I would go crazy on people, like cursing people to oblivion and all that stuff. So when my drama album came out, I was like, I don't want to release this album without apologizing to every single person at this label. Get everybody, anybody that did anything for me. Line them up. I'm apologizing. I apologize to every single person.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Lilly.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Hey Craig, welcome to IMO.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  It sure is nice to be here.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  I know. I haven't seen you in a second.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  I know. Yeah, we have a treat today, huh?

• 0:58Speaker 00

  We've got, oh my gosh, one of my favorite people on the planet.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you guys have met before. See, this was my first time meeting Mary.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  I know. You gonna be in for a treat.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  She's a real one. But this is the first time we've sat down for a conversation. We were talking about the one and only Mary J. Blige is here. But even though we've met and spent a little bit of time together, this is the first time we're gonna really be able to talk it out. But I love her in all kinds of ways. Just like everybody on the planet loves Mary J. Blige. But let's do a proper introduction.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  Well, Mary J. Blige is a singer, songwriter, actress, producer, and entrepreneur.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Killing it.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  She is best known as the queen of hip-hop soul with 15 studio albums, nine Grammy Awards, six BET Awards, 12 NAACP Awards.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  I want to see her trophy room.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  And one Primetime Emmy. So she out here acting too.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  She gonna EGOT it up in a minute.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  She's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, received a Lifetime Achievement Award from BET, and has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. So after this, I'm gonna go have to go outside and find that John.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  So without further ado, Mary J. Blige.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Mary.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  That's good to see you. And you look so good. Thank you so much. So do you.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  So good. My big brother.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Nice to meet you.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  Welcome to IMO, honey bunch.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Thank you, beautiful.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Thank you for being here.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  You got, you got some stuff going on, don't you?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  I got a lot of stuff going on, all the time.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  But you, what's, what brings you to LA this, this, this?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Um, what brings me to the West Coast?

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Um, I'm about to do my first ever residency.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  That's.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yay. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty major.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  So which arena, where, I mean, which casino?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  The MGM Bowl B Live.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh. This is gonna be a blowout. How have you been thinking about this show? I mean, is it you, is it you and other people? Is it gonna be a bunch of surprises?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Um, it's me. It's all about me. It's called My Life, My Story. So we're kind of gonna try to not make it into some theatrical, you know, because the Mary J. Blige Show is a Mary J. Blige Show.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  It's fun. But, you know, we're gonna try to like tell a story with, you know, pictures and, you know, just, I don't want to give it all away. But, um, the music is gonna be up. The music is gonna be up. And then we're gonna have our moments of I'm going down and all that stuff like that.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  What's, what we doing with the fashion? How are we thinking about that?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Oh, we're gonna go crazy with the fashion. But we're gonna go like elevated.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Not super ghetto fabulous.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Are we talking gowns? Are we talking?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  We're talking moments like, I don't want to give.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Because we're so close.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're so close. It's gonna be good.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  There's some moments that it's gonna, that's, it's gonna shock people.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Oh my God. Okay.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  And help me understand because, so what's the difference between sort of a residency and doing a tour?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  The difference for me is, so I've been touring for years. And the only thing that's, the beauty about the residency, the gift about it, is that you sit still in whatever mansion you're in, in Vegas, you know, whatever you decide to do, and you drive 20 minutes to the MGM Theater, and you do your show.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  When touring was about, you get on the bus, you drive for 20 hours, you get on a plane.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  It's so, I think the traveling is what created, you know, such a, you know, a bad taste on that. But other than that, the, um, the performance is what we do it for. But the traveling is the difference.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  So the performance will be the same each night or similar each night or?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  It'll be the same.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  It'll probably be different guests. But the difference is the traveling versus just sitting still and enjoying, you know, walking into your living room full of fans.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  I mean, your music just transcends all kinds of stuff because it's so personal. You know, I mean, and it's reflective of what so many of us have gone through. But I like the fact that you say that you're gonna run through your life, you know? Are you starting at the very beginning? Are you thinking about it in terms of, of, of your life when you were a child? Are you talking about the beginning of your life in the industry? I mean, how do you think about telling that story?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think I have to start from childhood because that's when I discovered that music was, you know, my first love. Singing was, you know, everything to me. It made me feel amazing as a child. And, um, so I have to start from childhood. Music was the thing, you know? My mom, you know, was a singer, but, you know, she couldn't pursue her singing dreams because, you know, she had us and she had a scholarship and, um, not making me nervous.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Oh, don't be nervous. You among friends.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  I'm talking to Michelle Obama. I'm a little nervous. Give me a second to get my, my words right. So anyway, let me get that story correct.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  My mom, um, had a scholarship for singing. And she had us, you know, at, you know, at a young age.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  And she couldn't pursue it because she had to take care of us.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So my mom was a woman who sang around the house. She was, I mean, she could sing anything, like anybody. So it all started there for me, just watching her be a singer. So I discovered that I can sing too.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  When did you remember finding your, your voice? I mean, like, Mary, if I could sing, I'd be singing all day. People'd be so sick of me.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Wait, hold up. She sings even though she can't sing.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  Well, of course, you know.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  All day.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  But you know, when does somebody with the talent like yours, how old were you when you were like, dag, I sound pretty good?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I was seven.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  What?

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Seven.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  I was seven when I realized I, like, I could sound like any, anybody. Like, I could mimic anyone.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  I mean, like, really do it. And I remember, um, I did a talent show in, um, in school and I sang Reunited. I think this is her. I was seven, seven years old.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Seven years old singing Reunited?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  And I sang The God. You know, that's a duet.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  And you sang both parts?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I killed it.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Now, did you have, you know, were you comfortable? Were you shy? I mean, you could sing, but you had the performing thing in you then?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  I just always knew, like, when it came to singing, I didn't have any fear.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  So I just did it. It just was something that, you know, that was in me to do.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  And so you, so you go to the talent show, you sing it. Afterwards, tell us what you felt like as a seven-year-old walking off the stage. Okay, you just, you just killed it, like you said.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Reunited, just reunited the auditorium up in here.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  I felt good because everybody was cheering.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And the word was, wow, Mary can sing. That's what I remember hearing in school.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Did that give you a little cred? I mean, did you, were you able to, you know?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I was off and running after that. I was singing. I was singing in the house, singing with brushes, singing in the mirrors. This, I was, it was on and popping after that.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  What about your, your, your, your brothers and sisters? You have one sister?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  I have two younger siblings.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  Two younger siblings.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  And my, and my older sister that you just met.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And so when did you realize, oh, man, I can make a living doing this? As opposed to just, I'm good at it and I'm singing?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  I didn't realize I can make a living doing it. It was something I always wanted to do. But what happened was in Yonkers, in Westchester, there was a mall when we were teenagers, called Galleria Mall. And they built a karaoke machine in the Galleria Mall. And everybody was talking about it. One of my friends was like, Mary, you should go and, you know, record in the Galleria Mall.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  How old were you?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  I think I was probably 14. And I went and I recorded Anita Baker's Caught Up in the Rapture. And, because that was one of my favorite songs. And my mother's boyfriend at the time, he worked at General Motors with this artist by the name of Jeff Redd. Jeff Redd was already signed to Uptown Records. Remember, you called and told me that.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  That's Jeff Redd.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  So he was an artist that was already signed to Uptown Records with Andre Harrell. And my stepfather gave it, gave the tape to him. He gave the tape to Andre Harrell, who's the CEO of Uptown Records. Andre came to Yonkers to Slowbomb. And I sang the whole Rapture album for him.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  The album?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  The whole rap, because that was my album, the whole Rapture album.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  Where were you when you performed for him a whole album?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  In my, in my living room, in the projects.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  So he came to, wow.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  He came, we heard the Caught Up in the Rapture tape that my stepfather gave him. He came to the projects.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  So you all are sitting around. Is everybody there, your brothers and sisters? Is it like Christmas morning and Andre Harrell shows up at your house?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Well, these guys that were trying to like, you know, manage me at the time, they were the reason why I was even able to, you know, get this tape. So Reggie Johnson was someone that my stepfather, that Jeff Redd knew. And they told Andre Harrell, you know, about, you know, I guess how to get to me and everything. And they called my stepfather and they said, well, Andre's coming. So I had to meet him downstairs. And he pulled up in his BMW and he had.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Was it just him?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  It was just him, by himself. He, he from the Polo Grounds. Of course, he's going to come to Slowbomb.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  He had a black and white polka dot shirt on and a sash and his glasses, you know, Andre. And he came upstairs and I sang a cappella.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Almost every song from the Rapture album. And the rest is history.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  So what was his reaction? Did he play it cool?

• 12:04Speaker 00

  Well, he sat and listened to the third, you know, it must have been good by the time you got to the third record.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  He was just sitting there because Andre was always like, who? So he was just watching. And I didn't, I didn't know what that look was. I guess that look was, wow, you know.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  We got something here.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  We got something.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  And my mom was just looking all proud, you know, we didn't know, you know. And I wasn't like excited because, you know, being famous was just really farfetched. It was something that we didn't think could happen to us. But it, but it happened. But I wasn't like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get a deal. This was like, yeah, this is what I do. I sing, this is what I do, no big deal.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  And you weren't nervous and nothing?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  See, that, that's a skill, to be able to be under that pressure.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  That's a Capricorn.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Oh, here we go.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Under pressure, we, right, under pressure, it's not a game.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  That would be a Capricorn.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. Meech, thinking back to when you picked up your first home,

• 13:19Speaker 02

  what was the biggest priority for you? For me, I was just laser focused on location. I needed to make sure I was central and close to family.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was the same thing for us as well. I think when Barack and I bought our first home, we really only looked in one neighborhood. And that was Hyde Park on the south side of Chicago. It was down the street from where you and Janice and the kids lived. And that meant the world. So we didn't even look in neighborhoods that weren't close to family. You know, where the girls would go to school, where we were working. So for us, location was, was key.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  I'm curious, if you were back in that position today, do you think your priorities would stay the same? Or has your perspective shifted a bit?

• 14:11Speaker 00

  That's a, a good question. Barack and I talk about this a lot. And we've come to learn that community and family support matters much more than I think we give it credit for. You know, sometimes, you know, we see young professionals, they, you know, prioritize living close to their job or taking the promotion. But as you grow your family, we've found that just having people around that you can count on is worth a lot more than you think it, think it does. So I think we probably would still prioritize location, community, over a lot of other things.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  I agree. I think young Craig would be very happy with the house I'm in now. But he'd be even happier to see all the ways my family have made it our home. Also, the backyard. He'd love that. So, oh my God, you know I love my backyard. You know, when you do finally achieve that home owning goal, it feels amazing. But getting to that point, that's where things tend to get complicated for a lot of people. Buying a home today is not easy with rising costs and a lack of clear guidance leaving many feeling unsure where to start. That's why Progressive is here to help home buyers get off the sidelines through their Open the House initiative.

• 15:36Speaker 02

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• 16:23Speaker 00

  What was home like? What was your family like? What was your mother like?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  My mother was beautiful. She worked two jobs. It was just me, my mom, and my sister. So it was just, before my two siblings came, my mom raised us by herself in, you know, some, you know, the projects.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yet I say more.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  I, no, no.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Not a, not a great environment. But, you know, she was this little woman who had to be a man and a woman. So we were raised like that, my sister and I. But she was also this kind woman that would take in the whole projects if she needed to. She was just, she was a giver. She helped, you know, and, and she wasn't scary. She just, my mother was a thug. Like she, she had to make sure her little girls was, was okay. So that's what I, the environment wasn't good, but my mom was, my mom was good.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Home was a.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  A safe space.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then, you know, I know for us growing up, now, we didn't grow up in the projects, but we grew up in a black neighborhood where, you know, you see a lot. I mean, Craig saw more than me because he was a basketball player playing at the courts. And just, there's just a way you gotta carry yourself just to get to and from, just to, you know, just to be able to exist and survive. And I was reading somewhere where you said, you said something to the effect that, you know.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  You didn't smile a lot because you didn't, you didn't feel like people, people would take advantage of that smile. Like if you showed your vulnerability, that, that made you too much of a target? I might be misphrasing that.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is this, um, we didn't smile too much and we didn't brag too much because nobody had anything to smile about and nobody had anything to brag about. But my mom worked, so we had a little bit, teeny bit more than what everybody else had. So we would try not to brag about new sneakers and smile too much about, you know, anything because that's, that was the environment. You had to have a game face in order not to get hurt. So you go to the store, you get a bag of candy. If you don't share, you gotta fight two girls.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  You know, so you guys are from Chicago, like Southside Chicago.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  You know, you just bringing back some memories, telling us the same thing. Cause our, well, my dad worked and we had, had it just a little bit nicer than our friends.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  But sort of not, you know?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  But, but, but we didn't know it. We didn't know it, right?

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  But, but what our parents did exactly what your mom did. You don't show when you got something nice.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  You, you have to have, you, you started learning at an early age how to code switch in your own environment. Home versus school versus the streets.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Well, it depends on.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  It depends on where you.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  The socioeconomic.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  On, on where you live and stuff, but I'm just, I'm thinking back on how your, your mom was showing you humility, but it was, it was not out of courtesy. It was out of survival.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just something we learned too. We, we really learned that because when you have to fight every other day. Even my mom coming home from work, she gotta fight the, you know, the biggest chicken, you know, on the planet. My mom is this big. So we learned early, like we gotta chill, like we can't, you know, even if someone said we was pretty, we can't act like you.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  No.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Whatever, we had to wipe that, you know? Unless you wanted to be doing that, you know? So we learned early and I think that, that helped me a lot with this music business.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  I was a gun ass.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, just not counting my chickens before they hatch and not sharing everything with people. Because everybody's not.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  For you.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Something came to me today, and I know you've heard this before, favor is not fair. So everybody's not gonna be happy.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  And that's the wisdom from how we was, you know, growing up, you know?

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, a lot of people wanna be like you. They wanna be, but they also wanna be famous. They wanna be wealthy or they think they wanna be it. A lot of people wanna go into the music industry. It's a tough business. Can you talk about, you know, so you go from your living room.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  To signing?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  This is funny, but it's not. We signed a contract in the kitchen on the washing machine. My mom didn't know anything. She, you know, she didn't know anything about reading a contract. Nor did we care. We just, oh, we getting out of here.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  That's what was on our mind.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Whatever was on that contract was better than what you had.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  It was better than what we had.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  Which was not a lot of, of, of anything.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yep, and it was a way out. It was a way out, but it was a, it was a safe way out.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  So my mom signed the contract and this is what I would say in the music business. I didn't finish high school, I didn't go to college.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Then I would say this, this to anybody. Finish high school, go to college, take some kind of class. Because, I mean, by the grace of God, I'm here.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Because I didn't know anything about any contracts. I didn't know how much money I had. I didn't know when I was broke or whatever. I was just living.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And trusting people that ended up, you know, couldn't be trusted. Ended up not being able to be trusted.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  So get your education.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Take some accounting classes, some business school, do something, you know? Cause it's, everyone doesn't get a chance to survive.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  What I survived. And.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  And what was that first contract like? I mean, I mean, cause I want people to understand what a bad first deal looks like.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, to be quite honest with you, Michelle, I don't know.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  To, you know, the lawyers whoever had it at, at that point had it. And all I know is that everyone that was in my life, you know, including the lawyers, were people that were looking out for them, themselves.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  You know, I don't wanna start labeling things, but everybody was looking out for themselves. And, you know, they were benefiting off of the fact that I was unaware. And that happened for a long time. So when I woke up and realized, you know, Mary, you have to get educated. You have to stay on your business.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Because you're not gonna go anywhere else if you keep this up. So I got blessed with some people that could help me.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  To read contracts or read what I could read because contracts are just.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  They sure are.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Who's doing that?

• 23:22Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  But if someone, I'm not afraid to say, I've never been afraid to say I need help. And I've never been afraid to say I don't know.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  And I've been, you know, getting help. And whatever I can't read or understand, I get my lawyers to help me read it and understand it. And people really, who really have my best interest at heart, they'll explain everything, everything to me. And it's still, still now.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  I still need help because it's, it's a lot now that I have.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Something to protect.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yes. Now I need more help.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  And more people I can trust and stuff.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  What point of, in your career, what age did you start to say, oh, man, I gotta get, I gotta figure this out on my own because I'm being taken advantage of?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Oh, let me see.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  I, I wanna say it was No More, around No More Drama time. When I was like, I'm still here. But my life is a mess.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  And I need, and for, for some reason, certain people was coming in my, coming into my life to help while certain people were still there that was trying to destroy. So I had to keep those people in my life and take responsibility. My responsibility was I was ignorant to a lot of things and blaming it on everybody else.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  So I took full responsibility and I remember when we first, um,

• 24:57Speaker 01

  put the No More Drama album out. I used to get upset and curse everybody out because my, you know, things weren't, weren't working.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  You know? And it wasn't their fault. It was my fault.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  When you said weren't working, what do you mean?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Like if something didn't happen, you know, or if a record didn't sell or this didn't happen or, you know, this didn't get that many, whatever. I would go crazy on people, like cursing people to oblivion and all that stuff. So when No More Drama album came out, I was like, I don't wanna release this album without apologizing to every single person at this label. Get everybody, anybody that did anything to me. Line them up. I'm apologizing. I apologize to every single person.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Where did you get the wherewithal to do that?

• 25:47Speaker 00

  To say it was time.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Like it's time and here's what I have to do. I have to hold myself accountable.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  I mean, do you know there are people who are 70 years old who haven't figured out that part of it yet? And you were doing it, you were, still must've been a kid then.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I was, but it's, it's the spiritual side of things. And, um, I started listening to a lot of like TV pastors and past, and people that had information. And, um, pride and arrogance and all that stuff. Um, a proud, was a proud and haughty person won't go further than this, you know? So it was a lot, I was getting a lot of information that caused me to pause and, and look at myself. You know? And so I realized that I was being, um, prideful and disrespectful to people and just different things that made me be like freeze. Just pump the brakes, I'm doing something wrong here. And I need to speak to people.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I need, I need to apologize to these people for my mistakes. So that's, I just got a good look at myself. I think I prayed the prayer, Lord, show me myself. You know, and I still pray that prayer. I got to see me. We don't wanna see ourselves because that hard look.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  At who you truly are, good, bad, ugly. You gotta be ready for that.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  And I'm ready now. I look at myself all the time, be like, it's okay.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  At least, at least you can see yourself.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  I mean, your rise was beyond meteoric. I mean, you went from your living room singing in the projects in front of your mother and the people that you love to dealing with a whole bunch of strangers. And having your name being a household word. I mean, you, you have to be able to forgive yourself. You, the little bitty Mary J, who was trying to navigate all that.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  And didn't know much at the time.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I forgive myself. That's why I'm like happy with myself now because I forgive myself for not knowing.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And whatever I don't know, I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed to say I don't know. I don't know, help me.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  So I'm interested in understanding how with all of the stuff that you've been through and you're, you're learning yourself, the one consistent thing was your music. You all, you kept pumping out hits and being good.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  How did you do that?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Well, the music was my therapy. It was the only way I can get everything out of me. So if you go back to the What's the 411 album?

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  That was me breaking fresh out of the projects.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  My life album was when I spoke and said, I need help. I'm damaged, I'm messed up, I need... And everybody else said, so are we.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Um, Share My World was when I went and started doing my own thing and left some people behind. That was another chapter.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  You know? So I'm speaking from there. Mary album, same thing. I'm speaking from there. Um, No More Drama, my life was... I'm speaking from there. The Breakthrough album, that was a whole nother level. I broke through. I'm here. And it keeps going, going, going, going, going. So it was, it was just there. It was a way for me to get it out and, and, and talk to the people and have them talk back to me.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Did you know you were creating a whole new genre of music when you were doing it? Or were you just doing it?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  We had no idea. We didn't know. I, I was singing for my life.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  You know, hip hop soul, singing over hip hop loops and being this little, you know?

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't, we didn't know it was gonna even explode the way it did.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And, and to this day, everybody still wants to sing, you know? It's, it's still doing it, you know?

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Still doing it.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  It's still doing it.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  My, my, our, our colleagues wanted me to tell you that when I was...

• 29:58Speaker 00

  No, he wanted to tell you.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  No, I was gonna keep this to myself.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Now you see how he did it? Just blame what everyone wanted to tell me.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  I was gonna keep this to myself, but I had a, a, a mixtape when I was in college.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  He used to DJ.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  I used to DJ.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  He was Craigie Craig.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Yes. But I, I would, I would, I would, I would make myself a tapes for when I had company. And it was...

• 30:25Speaker 00

  What kind of company?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Women.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Craigie Craig.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Women come over and, and I was, we were just talking about, we were just talking about your music. And I was like, yeah, I think I had a Mary song on every fifth song like I'd have.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  So, so he wants to thank you.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  He wants to thank...

• 30:46Speaker 02

  I wasn't gonna say it, but then everybody said, oh, you should tell Mary that. And then I was all embarrassed and now I'm glad I told you.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  That means a lot.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  The spins, thanks for the spins. It's from Craigie Craig.

• 31:07Speaker 02

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• 33:19Speaker 02

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• 34:00Speaker 02

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• 34:22Speaker 00

  You, you talk about love. Um, you know, the, the, the ups and the downs, the highs, the lows. Um, what have you learned through your, uh, about life through, through the loves that you've had or the, the missed, the, the mistakes that you made?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  The most important lesson I learned is that you're not gonna be able to give away anything you don't have. So if I, I didn't love myself. I didn't know how to love myself and need those relationships. So how could they ever work?

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  You know? So now that I have this love for myself,

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  it's wonderful. This relationship with me is the relationship that I work on the most. And so this relationship brings in other good relationships. You know, and it, it makes other people happy because I'm happy. But if I'm miserable in a relationship,

• 35:21Speaker 01

  the relationship is gonna be miserable. That's what, that's what I learned. I learned that, you know, if you, you can't give away what you don't have.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, self-love is really a key thing. And our, our parents were big on making sure that we loved ourselves, saying exactly what you did. You can't love anybody else until you love yourself.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  Well, there's just so much focus on, for, for women, finding a man, you know?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, females, we...

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  It's our dream, you know, to be rescued.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  Or, or to be chosen.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be, to be chosen.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  To be chosen.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Be chosen.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  You know? And so we're always working on us not for us, but to be chosen.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And that's where we mess up at.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  So many years, you're working on yourself to be chosen by someone else. I'm working on myself to be chosen by me.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Like, it's all about me right now.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  And it's gonna continue to be. And this, this is work every single day. I gotta make sure that I can sleep at night before I can, you know?

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Sleep with somebody.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  You've talked openly about experiencing abuse and, you know? I mean, that's part of your story. It's sadly, uh, a part of Too Many Girls' story. I mean, I heard you say, which I've said this time and time again because I work on issues with girl, young girls around the world, girls' education, um, trying to make sure young girls have some level of self-esteem. Because you've said this and I've said this, this world just not a safe place for girls. I mean, it is, the, the entire world is not a safe space for girls. Um, it is a shame. I, I say it out loud because I want the men in this world, the leaders in this world, to understand

• 37:22Speaker 00

  that we've created a place where most girls are, they have to fear for their safety every day.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I mean, no, no little girl. And you know what? No little boy is safe either.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  It's true. It's true.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Like, it's, it's...

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Children.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  You know?

• 37:43Speaker 00

  We are not protecting our children.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Mostly women, we, you know, we've been through it.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  We've been through it, you know? Five years old, why?

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Why?

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  What do you wanna do with a five-year-old?

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  But, you know, we're here.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  And with, you know, we've forgiven, we've moved past.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  And it still hurts sometimes, you know?

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  But it's a blessing in that, that lesson, you know? It strengthened, it strengthened me.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  How do you find that? I mean, and right now, we're talking for other people who are listening, who have experienced that level of abuse, but they haven't found a way through.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  I think the shame and the guilt is what has people in so much pain.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Ooh, yeah. Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  I'm sorry?

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  But the forgiveness, the self-forgiveness

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  is where, when the guilt and shame starts to fade away. You, you know, you still see it. You still like, wow, why did I, why did that happen to me? What did I do? Nothing.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  No.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  It's happening to everybody.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  So forgive, forgive yourself, cuz it's not your fault. No matter what you think, it's not your fault.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Forgive yourself. And don't feel any guilt or condemnation about it. And that's in the word too.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  But yeah, like God says, no guilt, no guilt. No guilt, no shame. No, I'm not ashamed. I'm not gonna let you, this world, make me feel bad anymore about something I can't do anything about. Period.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  And so much of it is here, you know? It's here. Yeah. I mean, I think we've come to a place in this world where we know better than to condemn the victim, right? But it's like that the conversations that we have when we're alone in our own hearts and heads that are coming from no other place. It's coming from within. It's like the call is coming from within the house, right?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  You know?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  You gotta speak to the call. You gotta know, that's a lie. No. I mean, you gotta talk to it like you're talking to, like we're talking. No, shut up, stop. No, you're lying.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Here you go again, I'm hanging up, I'm hanging up.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, some people be cashing, like, who you talking to? Me, I'm talking to me.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Ooh, I've got a bunch, bunch of people who are listening. I'm like, are you, are you talking to me? It's like, no, I'm talking to me. But it's real talk. It's real live talk. And I think saying things out loud too. I know it's like making the pain real and putting it on the table. You know? Because if you keep that pain in here, no, you know, all you are just carrying it. You know, other people need to see it and hold it and share and carry that pain. I think your music does that for, I mean, I mean, just watching any audience reaction. Um, it is you putting your pain on the table

• 41:09Speaker 00

  and you watch the power of what happens when other people pick it up. And they will. You know, you see it every time you perform.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's what happened when I released the My Life album. Everybody said, wow, Mary too?

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Wow, we love her so we can speak freely too. Yes, you can. You don't have to carry the secrets that's gonna kill you. Why carry a secret that's gonna kill you? Talk to somebody about it. Anybody, it doesn't have to be, somebody you trust.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  You know? That's how, that's how you get it out. That's how, you know?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Um, I'm just wondering, how, how do you think about alone time and loneliness? Do you ever feel alone? Do you ever feel lonely?

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'm lonely, but I'm alone a lot. Like, I'm in my home a lot, but we, we have a good time though.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  Mary and Mary, together, we are happy.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  We have a good time, I make sure we have a good time. We buy ourselves, we eating, I love to eat, by the way. I love, I love snacking, I love watching movies, I love laughing, I love talking to myself. I be trying on clothes, I be playing music. You know, I talk to, you know, some friends or something on the phone, or my sister or somebody, you know? And it is what it is. I accept it is what it is. I'm not trying to have company and friends. I'm just taking it as it is.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  I'm just picturing you on your couch, talking to Mary. Mary and Mary, girl? What we gonna eat next?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  But Mies talks, Mies talks about, she talks a lot about having a core group of friends though that you can rely on so that when you are feeling whatever, alone, lonely, or you need some feedback, some true friend, some true, some truth.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Uh, and I, I always, I, I listen to her because I have, you know, guys do have a cadre of friends, but we don't talk. Well, no, they, they all do, we just don't talk as much. Do you have a group like that to fall back on? Or are you falling back on Mary all the time?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I have a small crew of fabulous women that are my friends. I'm fabulous. Like, this type of conversation is fabulous. I mean, beautiful, they really have my best interests. They're, they're my family. We actually, we all live in the same neighborhood. You know, we're not sitting at the table and wondering who's gonna pay. We're fighting over the check. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, you know, it's that type of people. They don't want me to pay for anything. They don't want me to do nothing. And I'm trying to pay for everything. Like, oh, sit down, who owes paying, sit down. And if I need, I use each one of them for different things because they're all built different. But we all share what, you know, what we wanna share.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  But they're there for me when I need them. Yeah. And we have, we have fun.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  And are these folks, over time, childhood? Have you picked up friends? I, you know?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  These are my adult friendships. I've known them for about 30 years though. I barely have any of my, my, my childhood, you know, friends. I have like two of them, one of them passed away. So I have one left. And, um, yeah, we, it's just, that's, I've known for 30 years. They've been there. And we still here.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Good group of women.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  You know, in the research that I was doing, I, I found that you were very intentional on not having children of your own, which I think is a pressure that a lot of women feel that they have, we talk about pressure on women. They feel like they have to have children. Can you talk about why you chose not to?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Well, I don't wanna say, I, I said a lot of things when I was younger. Because I didn't want to have kids. You know, I, I, I saw a lot of people struggling. I saw a lot of, you know, my family members needing babysitters and, you know, them not having a choice, you know? No freedom. So when you're younger, you, that's the choice, that's, those are the words you make, those are the choices you make. I don't want any kids. But then when you get older, you start to see how valuable their teenagers are to them. Their kids are to them. You know? So now it's like, oh, man.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  But at the same time, it's like, oh.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  But I think you give, I think, I think more and more women who are, um, making choices for themselves, period. Whatever those choices are, you know? I, I think, I think more men need this. Young men need to have more options of what it means to be human. You know? I mean, I, I think the options for young boys are very narrowed. What does it mean to be a man? Right? I mean, there are pressures. It's like, you gotta be a competitor. You gotta be, you, you gotta be a winner. You have to have a certain kind of job, right? You have to not cry. You have to be athletic, you know?

• 46:51Speaker 00

  It's like still a narrow definition, even though I think more and more parents are raising kids, young men to think broadly. Same is true for, for, for young girls. I mean, we've done more work in society today to help give girls more options of who they can be. You can be a leader, you can be a mommy, you can be a wife, you can be a, you know, you can be a professional. You don't have to be a mother, you know? That, that is, that, that doesn't make you whole. You know, because just like with everything else, if you're not a whole person, a child will not do that for you. It won't complete you. You will just now be disappointed

• 47:33Speaker 00

  that this other human being didn't fulfill the, the holes that were in you. And now you've got a child that feels burdened by feeling, filling your holes, you know? You gotta, you gotta be a whole person. You should, should want that even more than wanting to be a parent. You should, again, wanna figure yourself out.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta get to that.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  Gotta get to that.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And don't make yourself miserable trying to have what someone else has. That's their life, you have yours.

• 48:15Speaker 03

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• 48:45Speaker 02

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• 49:05Speaker 00

  Hmm, I think it's, for me, it's when routines are in place. Kids are settled, although our kids are grown now, but when we were moving, they were little. You know, when they felt settled in a new school and they started making friends and life started to feel more routine, that's when it starts to feel like home.

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• 52:56Speaker 00

  Well, I want to, I want to shift to fashion.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Who you loving? Who you, who, like, okay, you can't tell us what you're gonna wear for the residency, which I understand, but are you working with any designers that you're excited about? Who are you loving? What kind, what, what, how would you describe your look these days? Me, I'm moving away from first lady dresses and A-lines to just kind of like.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Looking fly, period.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  You know, just kind of like, whatever. But I know that at this age, I feel like, let me, let me play with all facets of myself. You know, I'm not saying that who I was as first lady was not a part of me. I enjoyed, I enjoy the dresses and the gowns and the this and the that, but I also enjoy, enjoy a nice pair of jeans, you know, a cute little top, you know. Where, what, what are you into these days?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Well, I can go from chains this big to chains this big. Yes. And, and, and dainty. So this is dainty. This is where Mary is right now. Mary is on some really soft, beautiful, you see how, you see my nails, they're not even long with all kinds of, I'm just in this, wow, exploring this woman. This woman is soft and peaceful, but still, you know.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  Got a little, got a little something.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Classy, it's comfortable.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, comfortable, ooh.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  That's the key word. Comfort, you know, just playing around with whatever I want to do. Now, I've done, you know, rings on every finger, bracelets up to here, chains down, you know, and I can still go there, but I'm also her, which I've never really got into her.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  This her, I like this her.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, she cute. She cute, girl. With your little dainty pink nail, I like that. Craig's like, I don't have anything to say about fashion.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  No, I was, I was going to say that I'm built, I dressed for comfort today, but I wanted to look a little, a little fly for Mary. I wanted to look a little fly.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  This is him looking a little fly. This is for you.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Your jacket is nice.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Mary J. said, your jacket is nice.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  My jacket is nice.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  That's because you're a nice boy. Well, what you watching on TV? Are you a TV?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  What you watching?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  I just finished the second season of Paradise.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Which is insane. That thing is so good.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  We had Sterling and his wife on. They are great people, great people, but that second season's crazy.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  It's so good, man. I can't wait.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  So you like the drama types? You like the suspense kind of things?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  I like drama and horror.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Oh, horror, oh, I can't. I'm too scared of horror. I can't believe my fellow Capricorn.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Really? That's all, that's all the, all the Capricorns I know. We watch horror movies.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  I can't, I'm watching it like this. I'm, you know, and Barack, he's really, he just like, he has to warn me ahead of time. He's like, no, you're not gonna like this. And I'm watching it looking down, but.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  It's probably gory, like, it's, it's bloody. I don't like gore, but I like horror, like ghosts and demons. I like the conjuring, you know, like, stuff like that.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  See, I can't do the conjuring.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's spooky.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  How are you thinking about your acting? Are you producing more? You got parts coming up? You got projects that you're in that you're excited about or can talk about?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yes, projects that are coming up, projects that are coming, that are coming. And am I doing some more acting? I am.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Yay.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  I am.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  How has that transition been like for you? I mean, do you feel about acting like you do about singing? Like, I know what I'm doing. I know what a good song sounds like. I know. But you're like, no. But you're so good.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm, I'm still not sure. You know what I mean?

• 57:33Speaker 00

  Okay, you're in that, the insecure phase of your acting. Okay.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not like, I'm not Angela Bassett or Meryl Streep.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Mary trying to figure it out, but people are like, oh, you're so great, you're so good. In my mind, I'm like, not, not yet.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Do you like watching yourself?

• 57:52Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  I don't like, I don't like looking at myself, but I, I do it because I have to. It's, it's, it's, it's work.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  I don't. He's looking at me because I don't.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I still hate it, but I have to. When I see it, I'm cringing, like, oh, man, I gotta fix that. I have to fix this, I have to fix that. But you have, I have, I have to look at it.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then sometimes you'll look at it and be like, damn, it's not that bad.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Right, that's right. I'm pretty good, right?

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you start to see what you need and what you don't need.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Michelle was like me when I was younger. I hated the sound of my voice.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I hated my speaking voice. Singing, everything. I just hated every, I just hated everything about me. Now I be listening to Mary J Blige more than, more than everybody else. Like, it's, it's, I'm listening to my stuff. I'm like, wow.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  It's like, I'm really good.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  This is really good. It's like listening to another artist.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  Look what I missed out on.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  I missed it.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Do you have a favorite album?

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Man, my life album is one of my favorite.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good, good, you have good taste. You got good taste in Mary.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I do.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Who else are you loving these days? Artists?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  So many people right now. I love her.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Love her.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  And she's a sweetheart.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yes, she's beautiful. You have on the show yet?

• 59:23Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  That's gonna be amazing.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, we gotta get, okay, Gab. We gotta get you. I'm gonna work on, but she's a sweetheart. But she's shy, too.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, she's very, very, very, very quiet.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  I love her, her, I love Alex Isley. Jasmine Sullivan.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  I was trying to get to her concert. Missed that, missed that. That's what I still, I love going to concerts. Now, I will.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Oh, well, see, now I'm gonna be, I say, I'm just like you. I was thinking, yeah, I, if I had to do, answer this question, who am I listening to?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Brand Fires.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  I like Teddy Swims. I, I, I'm liking. Tim's.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  I love Tim's.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Love Dolce.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Summer Walker.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  I mean, I just love raw talent. Somebody that can, you know, with, with, without a band, they, they can move you like you.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, and thank you. I, I was so honored to perform at the inauguration.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  I was gonna, I was gonna ask you.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  That was, wow. It was so nice.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  At the state dinner.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  But the, the actual inauguration.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  Right, that's right.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  That was.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, that's how we felt, too.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  One of the greatest moments in my, um, career. And seeing you guys, you know, before he goes up and.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  You know, that was.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  That was big, and thank you. And I'm sitting here with you, this is crazy.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  I know, it's good. It's like the first time I, you know, the, the time I remember most, because the inaugurations are just, you know, and I'm nervous and I'm, but at the state dinner, when you performed with the French president.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. I remember.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  See there, that, you're like me, it's like, oh, yeah, I did do that. I did do that. You performed all, we were sitting right there.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Right in the front, like, right here.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  I was nervous.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  I was like, go, girl, go. Did you feel me cheering you on?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I saw you, I saw both of y'all. I was like.

• 1:01:30Speaker 00

  Do you still get nervous?

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  I do, but not like that. Like, you guys with the president, first lady, y'all right here. Or in my mind, all I could think of is what, what a train wreck I was.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  No, what, really? What do you mean, train wreck?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Please don't make me talk about it. It's, it's.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  If only you knew what my life was at that very moment.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  But just know this, I'm here, I'm better, and I'm here again with you.

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  Yes, you are.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  In a better mind frame, in a better, everything is better.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  Yes, all better. But see, the thing is, is like, in that mind frame, you were still amazing. I mean, and that's the thing.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  That's the work.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  Because it's like, I've been rooting for you forever, you know? And I.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  I know through your story, through your songs, what you've been through, what you've been carrying, and what you've been trying to grow from, but all the while, you were always enough. You were always more than enough. It's like, I'm just blessed that you are at the point now, and, and sometimes it takes time. It takes age to own this wisdom.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Said I can see it.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  That you can see what we all saw.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  She knows what she's doing, and you know that now. Um, and you were offering that to so many people, you know, that insight, that, you know, that, that acceptance, you know, that growth. And doing it through music, oh, just, it stays with you. You can carry it. We can carry it with us.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Thank, thank you, Michelle.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Making me blush.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  There we are. We'll shift, because now we'll shift to somebody else, because we like to take time on IMO to help some other people.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  And we have a listener question.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  From your neck of the woods in New York, Maria from New York.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Right, Maria.

• 1:03:35Speaker 04

  I have a good friend who is recently engaged to her boyfriend, who I unfortunately cannot stand. I feel like my friend is a different person around him, and I worry our relationship won't survive if she stays with this guy. He's so emotionally immature, and every time I see her with him, she's basically having to appease all his moods. He gets annoyed by practically everything. As her friend, do you think I can say something to her, and how? Or do I have to let things just take their course? Maria from New York, and she's in her mid 30s.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Okay, um, does it sound like she is in any type of danger?

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  It doesn't sound like.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  I think she just doesn't like this guy.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  I, I think you should, I think she should just chill. Don't say anything. Let life take its course, because she can end up without a friend.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Don't say anything, just love her through it.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Be with her, walk with her, talk with her. If she, if she asks you something, then you speak to her about it. Don't give you two cents if she don't ask you.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  I completely agree.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Completely, no, I, in thinking about this, I think about, I was thinking about it from a guy's standpoint, obviously, and I've always felt like you have to be really careful when you give people advice about a loved one. Because what happens is, they will forgive the person before you forgive the person, and they will forgive the person before they will forgive you. And to your point, you could lose a very good friend if you don't hold your tongue.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  It's the truth.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  If your friend wanted your help, she would ask you. She didn't, so just love her through it.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  I like what you asked first is, is she in danger?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Because that's an important caveat, you know? I mean, because sometimes, you know, if this, if this were a more urgent situation, you know, I don't, I don't think we can, I wouldn't wanna see my friend in harm's way.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  You know, I think I would risk the friendship if it were a situation where he just wasn't a jerk, but he was a dangerous jerk.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  But if he was just a jerk, what would you do?

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  I probably would not unless asked. I mean.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Please, she would say something.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Why would I lie? Why would I lie?

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  No, I'm just saying, I think you would say something.

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Why would I lie?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  I'm not saying you're lying, I just say, you, you, I think you would.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  I'm in situations like this all the time, you know, where friends.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Tell us more.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  And I have to be, I have to be, I, more importantly, have to be careful about what I say about people. Now, if somebody asks me, which people do, what do you think of blah, blah? I, people ask me all the time. I don't know whether, maybe nobody's asking you what you think, but people ask me what I think all the time. Now, if you ask me, I will say, tell, say the truth. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be like, he's great, you know? If it's a serious question, if they're showing doubt and, you know, but no, if somebody seems happy in their situation, and I don't particularly like them, you know?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, leave it alone.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  They might see it, because I'm not gonna be around you, you know? They might get the hint, you know? I might, I might limit my amount of time being around that person.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Which might mean that I, I'm limiting my time being around my friend. Because, you know, they're, you know, your friend can make a choice, and you can make a choice, too, you know? I mean, you can love somebody from a distance. You know, if this person is toxic to your space, and she loves them, doesn't have to be toxic to my space.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Because I also have to protect my energy, too, you know? It's like, and, you know, nine times out of 10, people do what they wanna do when it comes to love, you know? You, you, you do learn that, you know? You can't talk people out of anything. When it comes to how they feel, people make, some oftentimes make up their minds. Their minds are already made up, and you can see it, you know? I mean, if, if the, if the guy is an obvious jerk nine times out of 10, she knows it.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:17Speaker 00

  She knows it. It's like, unless she's blind, you know? It's like, well, you see it, you know? So if you like it, I love it, you know? If it's not hurting you, but don't ask me.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  Maria, I hope that was helpful.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Say, oh, yeah, there was a person behind that question.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Sorry, Maria, yeah, that was for you.

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you, babe. Thank you for taking the time to be with us. It is, you know, you, you are just, you're a blessing, you're a gift.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Thank you, Michelle, and Craig.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  Craigie Craig, that's how you remember.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  I think we said Craigie Craig. Thank you both for having me. This, this is a blessing. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you were gonna kill it on the residency. I'm gonna do my best to get out there. We'll get the dates to make sure we share the right dates with the listeners.

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  But I know it's gonna be the bomb.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 1:09:25Speaker 00

  So it's like, it's Jordan speaking. Jordan going.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  This is the Jordan.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Going out on the court. Well, thanks for taking the time, babe, and we will, we will see you out there, for sure.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  Break a leg.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  No. We're not breaking no legs.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  I thought that was what.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Nah, we're not breaking legs. We just say the power words. We're not, no.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  Okay, all right, don't break a leg.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Kill it.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  We'll get back.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Kill it, yeah, we gonna kill it.

• 1:09:51Speaker 00

  That's what you do. Thank you, Mary J Blige.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Thank you, Miss.

• 1:09:55Speaker 00

  Love you, babe.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Obama, Craig.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  This was great. I had fun. All right.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Good, good.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Thanks again to Lilly for sponsoring this episode.

• 1:10:25Speaker 05

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.