Some Friendships Need to Go with Issa Rae [From the Archives]

This week we are throwing it back with a re-release of one of IMO's very first episodes! Issa Rae is an acclaimed actor, producer, writer, and restaurateur—but she’s also a student of modern adult friendships. She joins Michelle and Craig to answer a question from a listener who is struggling with the unexpected end of a long-term friendship. Issa asks why male friendships are so weird and shares lessons from a friendship falling out. Michelle offers lessons on how to maintain connections throughout life, and Craig takes a stand for the fellas – who, Issa and Michelle claim, have no idea how to use emojis to express actual emotion. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Like, somebody's on a train.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, flying.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  You know, there's, there's movement. And you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming, it's a crisis.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is, took our work.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  That is a script. That is something where she's been right on television.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Playing and doing a text, like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like, she's, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 0:31Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  Not a crisis. Honestly, not a crisis.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Or the dog emojis.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  I didn't know you had a dog.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Okay, we are, we are mad.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Hey. Well, hi again, you. It's you again. Oh, I like your, is that pink?

• 1:08Speaker 02

  It's, uh, my wife called it coral, but it could be pink.

• 1:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is coral, and it's a little pleated. Well, this is, this is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Watch out now.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  And that little collar? Okay, I see you, Craig Robinson.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  I am, uh, I'm thrilled that you like my clothes.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, no.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  See, you guys, it's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  You know, and you don't even need much closet space. But, uh, you're stepping out, you're stepping out.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  What's new and exciting?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't, you don't drive.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  I might, no, no, I'm starting to drive.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can drive.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  How's that? How, how's the Secret Service letting you drive?

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Well, it's a secret. You, you could take me for a spin.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  They'll let me take you for a spin?

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee? And the boys wanted me to pick them up from school? And we did.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  And you tooled up in a motorcade to their school?

• 2:16Speaker 00

  In the pickup line. They were just like, meh. I was like, yeah, yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Four cars deep in the pickup line?

• 2:24Speaker 00

  That was so much fun. I'm sure that their friends were like, what the heck?

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yo, and then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, meh.

• 2:33Speaker 00

  I'm like, I get in.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  And don't touch the guns.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  I do remember that.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. But, um, so we're talking about friendship today.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Yep, cuz it couldn't happen before then.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Nope, it could not happen before then. But, um, my, my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Like, the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time. Although, as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  They did, right.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  And two of my girl-girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki. Um, and they had a little sister, um, uh, Gina. But, uh, they came to the funeral. And it was funny, we got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't, I hadn't missed a minute with them. Um, but, so we vowed to keep, to get, to keep in touch. But outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  So what I found is like, one of, you know, my best friend roommate, who you know, Angela from Princeton. She was my roommate, she's my girl, always talked to her. From law school, my friend Verna, just went to her house for lunch just the other day. Um, she's in DC, you know? And then there are my mom friends, cuz as I got married. But then, even before then, that was Pam, she was more my professional friend.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Uh, when I was, when, when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms. And, you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things we were like, no new friends, that's it. And I was like, ah, you know?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  I did say that.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, you were kinda joking, but it was important for me, in the normalcy of my life, to be able to, to, or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I, I, I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Right, and, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  And falling out of friendship with, with, with good friends. And, um, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional, right?

• 5:32Speaker 00

  What do you mean by that?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Well, well, what I mean is, after sort of grammar school and high school, where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character, most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't wanna go, so you, all right, I'm gonna take three friends.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  It's like, okay, let's be friends, come to the game with me.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Guys do that, guys would.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  That's why y'all are broken.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  We are not broken, but, but we, we, we don't go as deep.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  So if something happens, we're not as hurt.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Is that, are you, does that mean y'all scared? Is that what goes on all the time?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Nobody said it was scared, it's just a.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  My feelings hurt, so I don't, I can't know you.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  It's a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could talk to every week, and the relationship is mostly the same.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  That's cuz y'all don't talk about nothing.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Well, we don't, you're right about that. It's, it's, it's hard to go deep. You, you know when we go deep? Is when it's too late.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Deathbed, it's like, woo.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Or, you know.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Bubba, I wish I had asked him about his family.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  We're, we're getting a divorce, it's already.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  And then there's some tragedy, it's like, why didn't you say anything?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't say anything cuz I didn't wanna burden you and I was gonna thug through it myself.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  But today's show, we're gonna talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends and.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  We have company.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  We do have company, and I can't tell you how excited I am for this company because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom-com-ish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch this Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it, it's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And, and, and she said, you're, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  She made me watch the first two episodes back to back because she was like, on episode four.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I was, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one, and then I watched the third and the fourth cuz I was only gonna watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress, who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a, and a community folk, you know?

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Kinda like y'all.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Just in the community, doing stuff for black folks.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Giving it, giving it back.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Giving it back and just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Issa, watch him, watch him.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Oh, so happy to have you here.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Well, welcome to the table.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I was just nodding and mm-hmm back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in, y'all.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Well, what's been going on?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Oh, so much. I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant that is called Somerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Really? Okay, well, there you go.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I like the food environment. I love serving. I love hosting. And there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even played, like doing play dates with my brother, my little brother, our play dates would be.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Restaurant.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Restaurant, yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Sounds familiar.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  And then also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday. And it was like the 30-something birthday.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  You were a Capricorn, too.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  I'm a Capricorn, baby. Yes, you already know, 12th over here.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  That's why we bossy.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I know. I don't like to say it. And I want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner. And we were just like, ah, let's go. Like, we're trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  To find.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  So many different spots. And it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just, and it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from LA. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story, where I was like, I want that in my neighborhood.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Man, doing it with your little baby boss self.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Were you gonna say something?

• 10:56Speaker 00

  I wanted to find out.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  As we talk about friendships and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you is that as you've become Issa Rae, you know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it, you know? Have you become more cautious? Have you, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently? You felt like you needed to think about friendships differently, given your, you know, your ascent and who you've become?

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school. Because I'm from LA and there is a sense of this feeling like my job. Like, I don't, I didn't, I didn't move here to become myself. I was already here. And I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joey Sejoke. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me. And the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  But I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result. Some as a result of working together. As we both descended. Some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position, the time. Like, I have a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever. But she went through two major milestones.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was, that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college. And that was, she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to like truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started, like, I'm rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  So we fell apart and drifted apart. And we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  In that way.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But I haven't had any like, you're famous, I'm using you type things.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So Natalie, are you ready to?

• 14:10Speaker 00

  Read us.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Read us the letter?

• 14:12Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  All right.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless. Like, both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts. And I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently, though, Kristen lost a close family member. And when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners. But they are people we love. And I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible?

• 16:28Speaker 03

  What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  That took so many turns.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Can I just say, before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are, we go there. We are, you know, we, and we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women more so, we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just gonna throw a ball. You know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know why, how, tell me more.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last. But, but because of that, you don't end it without the hurt, you know? It is complicated.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a piece of you that you're giving so many of. I mean, so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with them. That I've, as a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like you mean a lot to me. And that I, that I see a future with you. And automatically, if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I feel betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship. But it still felt like she was, in any version of this, I don't know. I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman. It is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways.

• 19:18Speaker 02

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• 20:25Speaker 03

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• 20:27Speaker 02

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• 21:57Speaker 00

  The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships, and hurts is strong, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity. Right? Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's always present.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Someone in every relationship is giving a little more, giving a little less. You know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed, and all of us are. And that has never been a problem for me, like the complicated nature of my friends, right? When I felt most, almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table, giving, sharing, and you weren't. You were at the table. But it's sort of like, like, it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  There probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like, you weren't telling me.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Sharing, right.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  You weren't telling me, and, you know, and maybe it's because you didn't trust me, you didn't trust yourself.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  See, she's still hot about it, can't you tell?

• 23:21Speaker 00

  But I'm just using it as an example in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important, you know? And maybe it's because of who I am and trust and, you know, when you, and I let people in. So when I let people in, you're in.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means, I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there. Or maybe she wasn't.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  That's so complicated.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Well, it started out with the term "imbalanced", which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Why?

• 24:13Speaker 00

  You really say, what's your problem?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely going to be where everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance?

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I don't disagree with that.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  But there is, if you're, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine, like tickets to the games, I'm always one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you, and you're not, like, that's still, there's an imbalance. Like, I'm always thinking of you first because you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not going to show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  I mean, that, that, that's a problem, you know? If I, I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being, because oftentimes with my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one, I have the resources, I've got the, you know, I have more of the special, oh, guess what we can do? And there's a natural imbalance, but it's like, you, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner, even if it's just pizza.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  I know your effort is, yes. Even if it's just pizza, like, girl, I know you like pizza, and you invited me, this means a lot, you know? And I'm fine, I will meet you where you're at because I know that this is your love language. But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort or that you don't rank as high on their, on their list of friends.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

• 26:03Speaker 02

  You know, I guess with me and my friends, because like you, I don't want to generalize. As long as every now and then, somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight. You use tickets, that tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency to me.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  That's equivalency to me. But what I, I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. To your point, Issa, my friends and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're, we're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep. And like you were saying, how you're, it's sociology for women. It's not, it's carpentry for men, you know?

• 27:12Speaker 00

  It's shop.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  It's, it's, I didn't want to say gym, but it's, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment, and if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  To what extent? So like, even if, I'm not getting in your business. But like, from the divorce of it, right?

• 27:32Speaker 00

  We are getting in this business.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  For the divorce.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Two Capricorns.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I told.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  We in your business.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  I told, like, I tell her everything.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  But she left out, the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out. And I got over it. She would never get over it.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  You did go deep with it.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Or did you, did you bring up, we're having problems? And let's talk about, or did you wait until?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Like I said at the outset, I waited until it was.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  You didn't go deep.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  But, but, no, see, now, see, there's no timing to it. I mean.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  But there is.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  So it was deep for me. It was deep for me, irrespective of the time.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Just the mere fact that you told somebody, the obvious. You told your friends.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  That it happened.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  That it happened.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  That it's happening.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  That it's happening, not that it.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  And.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Someone, when you were going through it, right?

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  And it was hard, who did you talk to?

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I talked to two really good friends of mine. And we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading. And we'd have cigars and margaritas. And it was three of us. And we had one chair in the middle, so it was the whoever, and we called it the Chair of Angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the Chair of Angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the Chair of Angst for like seven months because I was going through this.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want, if, if I could somehow kick save this thing.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  I could tell them after the fact, yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family. And if.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  He's right about that. Is he right?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  It's a sort of, it's sort of right. We would have been, but you know, you go, you do what your family needs at the time. You know, there's, there's, there's no way we, we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and now everything is over. That's how we found out.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  They found out.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  So it was like, what? How did, you know, it's sort of the, the sharpness of it.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  I'm not saying it's the, it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused because it sounded like you were, you did to them what you did to.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Okay, well, that, but that's, you know.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  We, we, it's not like a friendship is, there's always something to dig into.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  But I find that in my friends.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  There's always.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  We're always going deep.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  There's always something to dig into.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Because we talk about everything. And there's, there's just, there are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to, like, oh, this happened to me and this is how I was affected by it. And there's just, and nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it is just, you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were this safe space or, and I didn't even see that it was a malicious space.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this, to Eva. And Eva was like, hit or miss.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  I'm not even sure.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  I don't even know if I like you, girl. You're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's, that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we, are we good or not? And now someone, something happened that's tragic and I, I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend, right? I mean, I think, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  If she does have those and, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yes.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  This is what happened to me.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Am I messing up here?

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Am I, did I, was I wrong, right? And the, the crew would be, they would dissect it. They would be IMO in real time, you know? And I, I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know? Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, you're right. I wasn't, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent. And I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the, to, to her friend.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check in every day type of person. I'm a very much, when, when I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been, I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me, but it's not a natural instinct. And so with this, I understand like Eva being, like, this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I, I, I can't, I'm not going to be the same type of giving friend that you are to me, but I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  And so that is, that's, that would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  That's a pronouncement there.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  It's, it's true. And it's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Right, and that's fair.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  But that's also a part of friendship, right? Because, you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  You know, or she's busy or, you know.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  And that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself, flaws and all. The inconsiderate or the, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not going to be the one to call because she just doesn't do that, you know? I'm not a great, you know, I, I don't, I, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  For the same.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Like, I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And, and that was because of eight years also. I mean, you, you know, it's hard, it was hard to reach me for, for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. In order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume, I don't want to bother you.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  You know, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, you didn't tell me? No, I didn't want to bother you.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  So that means I, I often have to bend over even more.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  To, to check in so people know that when things are tough, do not not call me.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Because I may not be able to do anything.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  It's like, now I'm mad at you for that. That happened like 50 years ago.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Right, right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  No, no, no, that, that was great. That, I, I appreciate that. And, and I also appreciate, now you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  It wouldn't have lasted.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  It would.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  You know, Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't, we don't say that.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, you don't.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a question about the Chair of Angst?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Did they ask you questions? Or was it more of like a venting space?

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Was it an inquiry?

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  It was. It was all of the above. Because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Angst just needed to vent. And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on? Or is there anything we can do? Or what predicated this? And it was just, it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session. But it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private that I didn't, I wasn't ready to share with the

• 37:54Speaker 02

  the whole world.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  That's dope. But y'all had to make a whole construct.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  To do that. With cigars and

• 38:00Speaker 02

  That's how guys are.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  and whatnot.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  That's how my guys are.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Once you out the Chair of Angst, you can't be angry no more.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  No more questions. No more questions.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  No more questions, no more problems.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  It never happens. Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me or your sister. We don't let it go.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  They don't let it go.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  You were never out of the chair. Because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened to them?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  What happened, yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife. And, which has helped me communicate, right? Because I say all the time, our relationship, the relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general. Because I, I get it. I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk. But I have to be intentional about, she needs this.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  And you, and you needed to.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Well, if I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's, we never get there like that.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  So a friend has never disappointed you?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Because you don't have expectations of them?

• 39:09Speaker 02

  No, friends have disappointed. But I, it doesn't injure me as deeply. And if your next question is, do I approach them and say, hey, you really disappointed me? I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends? Where they approached you and said, hey, this is, you just show up in this way and I'm upset?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I have not.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Have you, have you ended a friendship?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Cocky. I have not.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Oh, because you're a good, you're a good friend. I keep hitting this, right? Because you're a good friend.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  I hope that I am.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  You seem like you're a good friend.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  But it's, it is, it is.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  You have a sister. You have to be a good friend.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  But it's, it's, it doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  But I think you're, you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like, keep them around? You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is a really good question. And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. You know, after a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as, as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends and they're going to be my friends. And new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time, who are friends, the shift to the right, and they don't make the shift to the right, we just don't communicate as much.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  I call that the slow ghost.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  She does. She calls it the slow ghost. It doesn't, it doesn't.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not enough to have a conversation with. Because, you know, and do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy. You just sort of.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Just let it die on the vine.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it does.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Quiet death.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  And, and, and, and which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about. But it made me think about this. Is that I don't mind being ghosted.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Me neither.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  I don't mind that.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  If it didn't matter.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  It, if it didn't matter, it didn't matter. I'm not, but let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost. And then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town. Want to go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  I was forgiven.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Just look at, the guys in here are all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying for me not to get in trouble.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  No, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I had too many people I messed with. Because there's nothing worse than like, like having, sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about. And then you have to like make plans together. If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything. And it's, it's fine.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Ouch.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  But even with your friends, I'm sorry. Your friends that you grew up with,

• 42:32Speaker 01

  inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you become who you are supposed to be, right? There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally. Or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never crossed your mind.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  The guys who, like, say, grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  And they've never, since grammar school?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Since, since high school. First day of high school.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  No, we've fought, yeah. But it's, it's.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  It's not an emotional fight?

• 43:19Speaker 00

  There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, there's just, there's not a lot going on.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  There's no emotional fight. You're talking about, I thought you were talking about like a fight.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  No, and that's not, like, guys, to me, y'all will be like, buh buh buh. Like, y'all physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta. That's it, and we're good for life.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Let's go have a beer.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And no, if I, if I physically fight with one of my female friends, it's over.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Well, you all don't physically fight.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  No, but in.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  But I get it, I get it.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or, you know, decide this isn't the right relationship.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  I just think it goes back to the level, you know? And again, this isn't true for everyone. But even just watching my, my brother, it's like, you know, your, your friends sort of hover around the surface. And it's real, meaningful friendships. But they, they're, they're, they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you know? It's, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know? All of that sort of stuff.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Go straight to death.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  You know, but, I mean, because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. There's got to be like a thing that happens.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  It could be something going on with your kids or it could be a divorce or it could be, you know, a car accident.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Something super dire.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, a crisis.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  And a crisis for women is just like.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Don't do us like that.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  You know?

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  I'll give you an example. Because my husband doesn't fully understand it. And he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends, meaningful. But when I'm, when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you've got to stay for two days. Because it's going to take us.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  So much time to have to.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  To check up, right? And we're not planning anything. We're gonna sit right here and we will be here.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Too many rules.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  So I've got, no, but it's not even a rule.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  It's not even a rule.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  This is what we do. And this is what it's gonna take.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  You gotta stay for two days.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  So I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack. Love, love, all that. We're, we sit on a couch. We, there's something in front of us. Tea, crackers, move to wine, you know? But we get up at 10 a.m. and we start the check-in.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Ah, that sounds beautiful.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  And it begins with, first of all, girl, how you? You know? Tell me about you. Now, and that's an hour. Just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in, right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about, because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were gonna let go? What happened with that girl?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  She's still there?

• 46:09Speaker 00

  Oh, man. What did she do next? And then you got to give an example of what she did. Now, now it's lunchtime, right? On, on day one. Now Barack has come in, he's come out. And he's like, y'all still talking? And he'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  He's interrupting the point.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  And then he gets up and leaves.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Exactly. You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  You know? And then it's 3 o'clock. And he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  It's 48 hours. Because each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've, you know? Now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how, what are you all talking about all day? And I was like, we're not eat, we're just scratching the surface.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  And do you know that it's so, oh my, it feels so good after they leave? It's just like, there's no better feeling than like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything. I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Like, I can't tell, like, there's, there's friendship. There's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I want to be mad at someone and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Because she's never gonna, she's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we?

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  She's a, you know, like, yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  It's like, yeah, I needed that.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need, I need to know.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  The truth.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yes, I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it and they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like, gonna listen and I can grab. But everybody has a function in some way. And they're just. It's just, it's cathartic. It's so, it's so beautiful. And that's why I'm just.

• 48:07Speaker 00

  And the flip side of my husband, right? Cause he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what? You were golfing all day.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  And it never came up.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  And it never came up. You never asked about our godson. For example, you're with his father. How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Talking about.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  You know, and I'm like.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Literally nothing.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  You all have no information. And that's the difference. Because you'll be with each other all day, looking directly away from each other at a ball. Right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, there are tears. It's like, and that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when, when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Intimacy.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Intimacy.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  I maintain.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Cause you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right?

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  It does. It, it, it takes a crisis to get it going.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  This is also why women live longer than them men. Cause we're getting a lot of that out.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And I have to take it there, but y'all keep it in here.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  We do.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Like somebody's on a train.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, flying.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  You know, there's, there's movement and you gotta kind of deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming. It's a crisis.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is, it took our work.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  That is a script. That is something where you could write on television.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Playing and doing a text like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like she's, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 50:31Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Send the dog emojis.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  I didn't know you had a dog.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Okay. We are, we are bad. That is.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  One of my friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Thought you had a cat.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Guys in texts don't know how to express emotions. Emotions and will use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt. Dang, fire emoji, ghost emoji.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  You just don't have the language for it.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are, but I'm sixty.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Trying to give you some shit.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  So I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. And so why do we have emotion OGs? They, they're literal. It's like, hot dog, hot dog, I'm hungry. I want lunch. Fire is like.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, I forgot about Eva. Now, right?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  No, we almost.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Well, she lost the friend.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  I know.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  But well, is it possible to set boundaries?

• 51:57Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  In a friendship that's unbalanced?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  That's what I'm gonna have to be honest about. Like, hey, girl, like, um, I have a lot on my plate and I'm, that's hard to say. Because I was, yeah, I was gonna say like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, cause I have been, I feel like I, I give you more energy than I have just been like, I blamed it on work. I blamed it on, I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to, to pleasantly ghost me. And I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Because you, you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher tier friends that like do get your time and energy, that you do consider those people. Or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. Um, and that's a whole different situation. But I don't, I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you, that, that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  So, yeah, it, it's, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you wanna be? How do you, how do you wanna show up? You know, and, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out. Like I'm, I'm, I understand you before I understand me.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without, without opening themselves up. Cause that's hard, you know? And maybe what I would say to Eva is maybe it's time for her to just, she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship? And how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is, is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And make some friends with some guys.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Right. Or, or, you know, be okay, then understand that there will be times and then that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over. Right? And not take it to heart. If that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna, how you need to show up for people.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  And what's, what's an example of that? How, showing up? Is that just, I hear, I hear communication. I get that.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  But understanding who your friend is and what they need.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship. Sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner, but you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta, you know, you, you, you're gonna have to give people what they need to, at some point to get what you need. It's, it's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management?

• 55:51Speaker 00

  Is it, you know, um?

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Brutal honesty.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I, I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That, that means a lot to me.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition that maybe you're also not compatible. Cause some of it, some, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive. They're instinctual, like you.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  You don't have.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  You don't have to try. You, you are the yin to the yang. You're, you fit in like puzzle pieces. And then there, there, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're, you're offending. And if this feels like, very much like Eva had to try too hard.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  To be something she was not.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  To be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the, the worst friendships I've had that have, I've silently ghosted her or that have silently ghosted me, it just, it was hard to manage. Like there were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is, is crucial.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  And how old is Eva again?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, I was wondering that too.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  Thirty-two.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Thirty-two? Oh, yeah, this is when people start falling off, girl. Your thirties is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there. And does, does she have kids?

• 57:23Speaker 00

  No. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna whittle even more, you know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. Anyway, I think that's also what I would say to Eva. It's like, this is life.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  You know, and like she said in her letter, friends aren't family, you know? And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not, you know? Friends will, there, there are seasons for friends. And who knows? In their forties or fifties, they may reconnect, you know?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  So this is perfect because I'm thinking it back to Eva.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship. If you want it to be another way, based, I'm, I'm learning from you all. If I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  Well, and that's what her friend essentially did, you know?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  But her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, hey, yeah, this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last round. Like, my relative died, you didn't show up, this has been unbalanced. And maybe, maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, right, she did.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, you ain't shit.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  I realized that. And that's just, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I wonder if Eva also fought for it.

• 58:58Speaker 00

  Doesn't say, it sounds like she's in contemplation about it.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  About fighting for it?

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Or letting it go. It sounds, it feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Do you guys do follow, you know?

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Well, we could, you know?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I need to know.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Well, let's, let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva. And then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Well, one of the things is, I think you mentioned it, is like, if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey, guys, how do I?

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Am I?

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Take it to your counsel.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Take it to your counsel. What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad, bad friend? And like, use that to become a better friend.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32, this is how it goes. You know, people come, people go.

• 59:56Speaker 00

  You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who, who knows where you'll be when you're 50? You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in, in the meantime, I, what I would tell her is use this as an opportunity, since you're bothered by it, to figure out how you can grow.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you, if you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology, say where you're coming from and let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you, I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this off. Like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  I like that.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  I like that too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said, just get a guy friend.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Honestly, you want a low maintenance relationship.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  You want a low maintenance relationship, get a guy friend.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Get a guy friend. And, and don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Eva, we really care about you.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  No, for real.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  You'll be good, girl.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  You'll be all right.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  This is, this is how, as you said, Issa, the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is so fun. What's the next letter?

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, come on.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Got that one down.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:02:01Speaker 04

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.