Let’s Talk About Hair

For many Black women, caring about their hair isn’t a choice – it’s a cultural inheritance, a political statement and a lifelong journey. Julee Wilson, Beauty Editor-at-Large of Cosmopolitan, joins the show to lead a candid discussion between Michelle Obama, her hairstylist Yene Damtew and Blackish actress Marsai Martin about their personal hair journeys, and how Michelle’s hair evolution both mirrored and inspired their own. To read Julee Wilson's work, visit: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/style-beauty/beauty/a69183226/black-hair-shows/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  Dude, this, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 0:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, this gown, you know, somebody.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation too.

• 0:17Michelle Obama?

  It's only value added, dude. It's only value added.

• 0:25Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Ribbon.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO. The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Julie Wilson, award-winning journalist and beauty editor-at-large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yenay Demtu, renowned beauty expert, founder and owner of Aesthetics Salon in Arlington, Virginia, and longtime stylist to Mrs. Obama. And Marseille Marin, award-winning actor, producer, and founder of Genius Productions. And of course, the one, the only, Michelle Obama. Welcome, everyone. All right, I need to know what your hair journey was.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  What was it like growing up in the South Side of Chicago, being a beautiful little black girl? What were some of your earliest hair memories?

• 1:22Michelle Obama?

  Ugh, sadly, it was combative.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28Michelle Obama?

  You know, my mother admittedly grew up saying that she was not a hair mom. She was one of seven kids, two little brothers, a lot of girls, but I don't think my mom wasn't a girly girl in that way, right? So I think she was intimidated by hair and by my hair, right? Because I had a lot of it. It was thick, it was all over the place. And so wash day for her felt like a battle, right? And that's what it was. It was wash day. As I describe in the book, it was like... Sundays were over, you know?

• 2:12Michelle Obama?

  I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl. Um, because we didn't have the facilities, you know? You got, you got your hair washed on the cold Formica kitchen sink.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25Michelle Obama?

  That was annoying, you know? The back of your head hurt because you're leaning over it and then the water is trickling out of a faucet. And sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold. Uh, and one thing I never realized back then, we weren't using the right hair care products for us. Because they were like, you, you got what you got at the grocery store.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:50Michelle Obama?

  Or at the drugstore. There wasn't an abundance. There wasn't, you know, the Soft Sheen line hadn't really fully come out. So she was using Wella Balsam on my hair.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:01Michelle Obama?

  And as Yune now knows, I didn't even realize that, that that product stripped all the oils out of our hair. It wasn't designed for black hair. So, you know, you, she'd wash it twice. And then the process of detangling that hair, that without

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Were you tender headed?

• 3:22Michelle Obama?

  I wasn't by the time I, you know, you, I couldn't be.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 3:26Michelle Obama?

  Um, so I think I was pretty good for a kid. But still, it, it took, it took what felt like hours to comb through all my hair. And then the, the process of straightening, you know? It's like the hot comb on the stove. Uh, you know, talk about heat on hair with a little oil. It was that, um, the yellow oil. The Ultra Sheen. Ultra Sheen oil. I still remember it. Cause I think maybe those were the only products we had. We had the Ultra Sheen.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I feel like this is like really like something we all have in common. Like hair is such a shared experience.

• 4:04Michelle Obama?

  Yep.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  For black girls. Like, do you guys remember like getting your hair pressed, like at home?

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, but that wasn't, it was funny enough. My mom tried to stray away from getting my hair straightened as much as possible because every time I'd get it pressed when I was younger, it'd turn out horribly. Because I would either go to school and it would look crazy, or I would do something.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Funny story, um, because I always, I always used to get, um, like curling rods. Like she used to just rod curl my hair, and then I'd wake up and then take the rods out and they'd just be in like a... That was, that was my principal hairstyle. So when I got it pressed, um, with the hot comb and in the kitchen, I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight. And I remember every, every lunch before recess, they would go into the bathroom and they would get a cup of water and straighten their hair like this, and I'd be like, "Yeah, yeah, okay."

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Not understanding what reversion was.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Girl, I did it with them, thinking that we kicking, like, "Ha, ha, yeah, yeah." And they're like, "We like your hair." I'm like, "Thank you, thank you." And then it's Texas heat, too. So I'm talking to one of my, uh, other friends, they're like, "Your hair." I'm like, "What?" I'm on the top of the sta-, uh, the slide, I'm like, "What are you talking about?" It's like, "Shh."

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that's so funny.

• 5:29Michelle Obama?

  Before our very eyes.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Yes, it was like, my mom would say, "Girl, what happened?"

• 5:34Michelle Obama?

  What were you thinking? And that was the thing about, once you got your hair pressed, you were captive, you know? And, and I think that that, you know, goes along, and I was a tomboy. I loved playing sports, I was out there sweating. I used to want to be, and I liked an Afro. One of my favorite, I loved baseball, I was a, played softball when I was little. One of my heroes, uh, was, uh, Jose Cardenell on the Chicago Cubs. And I don't, he was, uh, black, uh, first baseman, and he had this huge Afro that he would put his cap on and then pick it out.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  And so the hair would be framing the hat?

• 6:14Michelle Obama?

  And that's how I loved to wear my hair, with the cap on and have it picked out at bat, you know? So I wanted to be active, but when you get your hair pressed, you know, mom's like, "Don't touch your hair, don't, don't move."

• 6:28Speaker 01

  You almost got to like walk around like this, right?

• 6:30Michelle Obama?

  Hold it as rain. And it's not just pressed. And don't think about swimming, even...

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Curls like ponytails.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  On Sundays, I only got my hair pressed for special occasions. But regularly, my mother, Sundays, you lay out, you sit between her legs, you try to touch your head. She hits you with the comb.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Put your hair in pigtails and just even braids or two twists. It was such a thing and it was an all day experience.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, absolutely.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  And it was one of those things, my brother freely could run around. He could play in the neighborhood, he could do whatever it is that he wanted. But on Sundays, I had to sit and get my hair done. And my mom, similar to Mrs. Robinson, my mother only went to this beauty salon. She didn't, she never took care of her own hair. So trying to do my hair, it wasn't even if I was tender headed, it just, she wasn't really good at it.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  Either. So it was just kind of like, this is painful. And it doesn't look good at the end.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  But it's just what you do.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. My father, funny story, my father actually pressed me in my sister's hair.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Like, he grew up with three sisters in North Carolina.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  And had like the hot comb on the stove, the whole nine yards and like

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Just captive audience with his girls, like pressing our hair, like grease on the back of his hand.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Like, so interesting.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  I don't think my father ever touched my hair. I can't think of a moment.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  It's a very like unique experience. And to bond, right?

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  We bond around here, sitting in, you know, between the legs, getting your hair braided, that sort of thing. And I feel like we probably all got burnt on our forehead at some point, right? On the ear.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  On the back of my neck.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Trying to get my kitchen. It was like the back of my, my great grandma.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  It was always the worst one was on your forehead though.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Cause like you can't cover that. Or you would get like, I love that picture of you when you're little with like your ponytails and that bang, that barrel.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Bang.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  From the sponge roller.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  From the sponge roller.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Well, I eventually, because my mother was so bad at doing my hair, I started going to Ms. Phillips' little salon in her basement.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  You were early.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Across the alley because my mother gave up so soon. So here I am, six years old, probably, going across the alley with my little money to Ms. Phillips' basement. You know, the kind of basement salon that I think.

• 8:50Michelle Obama?

  Is almost in every black neighborhood.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Still.

• 8:54Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, still.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  You have a salon, we're gonna talk about that.

• 8:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and she could press my hair faster, get it straighter.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:01Michelle Obama?

  And then she would do this thing where she would make a bang and she put this kind of hair stick that you put on your forehead that would hold the bang on your forehead. I don't know if you.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Like a wax stick?

• 9:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 9:16Michelle Obama?

  It wasn't a wax stick. I remember it felt, it felt like a hair glue of some sort, but she'd just put it on my forehead.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  So that the, so the bang would stick.

• 9:26Michelle Obama?

  Stick to my head. And I always thought that was kind of cool.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  It's like, almost like an edge, edge control.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  You know, back, I mean, think about spritz and like Pump It Up back in the day. So it's probably like a Brona Brothers or Dudley's product.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  That's cool.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  What up?

• 9:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like, yeah, she was doing Arthur Krabs.

• 9:44Michelle Obama?

  She was.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  That's what they're like.

• 9:46Michelle Obama?

  Like, uh, Oregon.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Very innovative.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Very innovative. We're so innovative, Black women, just period. But I want to talk about the salon of it all, right? Like, going to the salon, I mean, that's such an experience. The other women there, what are they getting their hair done? What are they talking about? I mean, you own a salon. Do you have that level of community and a village sense with your customers?

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You know, when we opened up Aesthetics in 2017, one of the things that I realized, living in the DMV, was that I grew up in Orange County growing to the salon, the salon experience. Not salon suites, no shade to salon suites, but being in a communal environment. It's a place where we organize. It's a place where we build community. And so in the DMV, I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we opened up Aesthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come that are in the professional workplace, that aren't there all day, but they still get that salon feel. Like, you still, it's like, oh, there's, you know, Michelle, that's, she has a standing appointment on Friday, or

• 10:52Speaker 03

  you know, you're not gonna have somebody coming in with the bootlegs or like selling a food plate, but you still are getting that camaraderie and you're still getting hair care. And I think now more than ever, you don't see hair care take place in the salon. Because everyone is doing quick trends. You know, people are slapping on a wig. Cool, that's great. That serves a purpose, but how are we treating our hair underneath? And so it was really extremely important to me to build a space in a community where that existed.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Were you up in the salon when you were young?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  I was. I was up in the salon. Um, and then, of course, I started Blackish when I was nine. So that was a whole new world. That was kind of my version of the salon, in a sense, you know? Um, and I was with people that I worked with every day. It'd be, whether it was 7:00 a.m. or 7:00 p.m., like, that's where we were, just constantly getting our hair changed for different scenes. And that was my first time, really, getting to explore the amount of styles that can be for my hair, you know? Um, because I think, growing up in Dallas, it was really only what I was telling y'all, like, the rod set with the curls, or, you know, my terrible press, press, you know, get my hair straightened.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Um, but working with a Roxy Lindsey, which is absolutely amazing. So talented, um, and so unique and a perfectionist, and really, like, transforms your hair into something different that you would have never thought in a million years. Like, oh, I didn't even know it could look like this. So I, growing up with her, it was, it was really, really special to be able to see that. And, um, made me learn more about it, you know? Because both, both my mom and my little sister have different hair textures that I would always, um, in a way, feel interesting about myself of like, hmm, there's two different textures, but like, theirs is very fine, really thin, can be in a ponytail, like, in 20 seconds.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Mine is super thick in the middle. Like, I can't even get it, you know? I have to use a hair clip. And, uh, it just was really different. And especially growing up on Blackish, you know, with Yara and Tracy, they have two different hair textures than I do. So I, so I needed that person to help me figure out what was for me, um, to where I constantly didn't have to question, you know, if my hair

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  even told a story, you know?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  But I have to say, watching it, and I'm sure you guys would agree.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  It was so beautiful, one, seeing a black family like that, you know? For us to have that storytelling beyond The Cosby's and like that sort of thing. But also the hair inspiration, right? Between you, Yara, and Tracy, like, I would just be like, oh, I want to do that.

• 13:29Michelle Obama?

  I know.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  And look at that, like, as just for saying.

• 13:31Michelle Obama?

  I wish I had you when the girls were little because I used to run out of styles. I just creatively, I'm like, OK, one poof, two poofs, you know? But then I'd see your character and I'd be like, ah, I could have tried that.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:48Michelle Obama?

  I mean.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Such cute stuff.

• 13:49Michelle Obama?

  Well, it's just, it's just amazing how we don't see a lot of inspiration for our type of hair on television. And I think that that was a big part of, that, a part of what kind of got me off on the wrong track in terms of loving my hair.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:09Michelle Obama?

  Was because when we were growing up, we had no images. There were no images of, of black hair, black characters, let alone black children. You know, we grew up watching The Brady Bunch. It was Marcia and Jan and it was the Partridge Family. And it was, I think, the closest young person that I saw was Janet Jackson. And she was still a baby, you know? So with The Jackson Five, but Janet Jackson wasn't a part of the sort of American zeitgeist in the same way. So the notion that we grow up playing with Malibu Barbie and who wants the Chrissy doll with the curly hair? Because you're always trying to fix the hair, you want the hair to flow.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:54Michelle Obama?

  And I think that a lot of women don't, women, white women, don't understand how problematic it is for young black girls not to see themselves in popular culture. And not to pay, give respect and to show examples of our beauty.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yes. And that we are beautiful, right? Like, how you have to see it and for it to be celebrated in the world to say, wow, yeah, it's being celebrated. Of course I'm beautiful, but if you don't see that. So was your mother, who was, who was telling you you were beautiful?

• 15:28Michelle Obama?

  You know, I, we didn't talk about beauty in my household, you know? I mean, it wasn't, you know, my parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades. Um, I don't know whether that was intentional or, or not, but I don't remember us sitting around focusing on looks, period, right?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:51Michelle Obama?

  Um, so I, I, it probably wasn't until I was maybe in high school that I started thinking about taking control over my look. And I, I, I think that had to do with the fact that I went, I went to a neighborhood public school. So, you know, from K through eight, I was in the neighborhood. And then I got into a magnet high school and I drove across the city. And it was a school that attracted kids from all over the city. So it was the first time I was around all kinds of kids, all kinds of races, all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds of black people.

• 16:32Michelle Obama?

  All right, so, uh, Joe Dudley was in my, uh, high school class, the, the son of Dudley. And they were wealthy people, you know? There were people, young kids like me, who were going downtown to get their hair done. They were, we were, we had to commute through downtown Chicago. So I started going into the department stores there. And I started to see, oh, like there are black girls that are, that do have a lot of variety. They are doing different things with their hair. I think it was high school when I started discovering the possibility of style in clothing and in hair, because I was around a lot more people.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And you got creative, you started doing?

• 17:15Michelle Obama?

  Started, and I started exploring. I started looking for my own hair dressers, you know? I started getting recommendations. I would see somebody and go, ooh, girl, your blowout looks nice. Where do you go?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Michelle Obama?

  And I would take my little babysitting money and I'd go down. And that's where I found my first hair, my hair salon community was in high school. When you talk about that salon, it was Ronnie Flowers, the salon with Van Cleef. I started going to him in my senior year in high school. And he did my hair from senior year in high school until I went to the White House.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 17:50Michelle Obama?

  That relationship was that close.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  That is beautiful. And that's what we're talking about, that salon relationship.

• 18:03Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I am Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. My work has introduced me to so many interesting experiences. I've worked in film, TV, print, fashion, and beauty all around the world. I've also had the pleasure to work with many celebrities and dignitaries along the way. And I'd love to work with you. So the next time you're booking on Airbnb, click on the services tab. You'll find professionals like me and my team. We can help make your next special occasion even more memorable. Weddings, galas, birthdays, headshots, or anytime you just want to feel and look your very best. You can find me at Airbnb.com/services.

• 18:45Craig Robinson?

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• 19:30Craig Robinson?

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• 19:42Craig Robinson?

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• 21:09Craig Robinson?

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• 21:39Speaker 01

  But I love, Michelle, how you were saying in high school, you kind of realized, like, I always love asking the question, when did you know black was beautiful? And like, you kind of having that realization then. What about you, Marseille and Yanae? Like, when did you know black was beautiful?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Ooh, when did I know black was beautiful? I mean, I think just starting in my household. Like, I grew up with, of course, my parents were around, but also my great-grandma lived with us. So basically, like, my mom's mom, and then my mom's mom's mom, all lived in the same house.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Just intergenerational homes.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And then my dad's mom also lived in our house. So it was just full of grandparents.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  That were loving on you.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  That was just loving on me. And funny enough, we didn't talk about beauty too much either. But it was more like, if I'd come home from school and I'd be like, this person said this to me, my mom would be like, F him, you're gorgeous.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  And I'd be like, oh, okay, that's cool. But I especially learned from my mom's mom, who I called my buba. She had a range of wigs and a range of nail polish. Even my great-grandma collected purses. And they just always were about self, always, first. And then it would be like, like, you know, midday, they would cater to everybody, you know? Start cooking, playing music, you know, making sure I was okay. And my puppy at the time. It was really just, it was sweet when I just started observing more, you know? And that's where I learned just that black was beautiful, and back then and now.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  And seeing the transition into, you know, when I was young, growing up in Dallas with them. And then now them being my angels up above and kind of guiding through those situations of like, wow, my buba would have said this at the time. Or if someone, you know, told me this, like, I would remember everything that they said to me. So that's definitely the first time I learned, absolutely, yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  I love that. What about you, Yanae?

• 23:46Speaker 03

  High school? I think high school was probably the pivotal moment. I was a cheerleader, similar to Marseille. All the girls wanted to put water on their hair. And I knew, I knew, I was like, my hair can't do that.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  See, I didn't know. See, I said, my hair can't do that.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  You fell for the hooky dope.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Right, I said, they laughing.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  I'm gonna laugh too. They're like, we're gonna make our hair crankly. We're just gonna put some water on it. And I was like, I can't put, I can't put water on it.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  And they're like, why? And I was like, cuz my hair, my hair won't do what your hair does. And coming home, again, my, my mother was just kinda like, was very, my parents were very protective. We grew up in Orange County, predominantly white, an Asian neighborhood. I was the only black in a lot of environments. And so my parents were very protective of like, you, you are fine, you're, you're worthy. But on the weekends, we spent all of our time in LA. So it was two different worlds that I would see. I would be in Orange County and I would live in that world. And then I would go to LA and I would be around like predominantly black neighborhoods. So it was, it was two different contrasts. And so I got to see both sides.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  And I felt more comfortable when I was around more black folks than I was at school. Cuz at school, it was just kinda like the way that I speak and like, my hair is different and how I present. And then I'm first generation Ethiopian American, I have a funny name. There was just so many, it was, it was layered for me. So high school is when my parents really started to be like, you're beautiful, you're fine. Like, I was, I, I was a cheerleader, I ran for homecoming princess. It was then that I was like, the, the self-esteem and the confidence was being instilled in me. And it was like, you're perfectly fine the way that you are.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  And the pride of being like a black woman in that space.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  Yes, because in the beginning, you're ashamed. You're kinda like, I'm different, you retract, you don't wanna say too much. And then you realize like, nope, I'm gonna say what I want.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Right. Michelle, like going from the south side of Chicago to Princeton? What was that transition like? Because that's gotta be a lot. You're now, you were in high school, you're learning that black is beautiful, that you're, you're experimenting with your hair and doing all the things. So what was the Princeton experience like?

• 25:57Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's interesting be, because, and I, I enjoyed my Princeton experience. I had great education, I made great friends. I think one of the things that saved me was that I wasn't curious about assimilating.

• 26:15Michelle Obama?

  Okay. What I had learned in high school and growing up on the South Side of Chicago and growing up in a big extended family is that I need to go where I'm loved and have community. Absolutely. Now, when it came to hair? Right. Well, that was another story because I'm in Princeton, New Jersey. Right. And the first thing you do is you set down foot and you start finding all the black girls, where you get your hair done? Right, right. Where you get your hair done? And there were some girls that were sophisticated enough that they, by then I had a relaxer, way too soon, but I gave up on the pressing comb very early and my mother was happy to see it go. By then I was in a relaxer.

• 26:59Michelle Obama?

  So how do you get your touch-ups? You know, and for those of you who don't know about relaxers for black people, you know, it's a process of chemically straightening your hair. And that means as your hair grows out in its curly style, you need to continue to straighten that new growth that comes in, which is every six-week process. And now here I am, a freshman in college. So there was a department store called Bam Burger's in a mall near Trenton. There was a hair salon there. I went there for the first year and it was just another hassle. Right. Right? Because in addition to going to classes and trying to have a life and go to a party,

• 27:40Michelle Obama?

  I had to make my hair appointments and go off campus and get on a bus and go to the mall. Black hair, really? It just, it's just like, oh geez. Always a thought. But I discovered, I met my DC friends, a lot of girlfriends from DC. So now I'm out, I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city, I'm in the, I'm on the East Coast. And I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who live in DC because there were a ton of braiders in DC. And that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. Yeah. So sophomore year, I visited one of my girlfriends, got my hair braided.

• 28:24Michelle Obama?

  Then I went back to my salon, found a braider and I started wearing my hair braided. In sophomore year. And a lot of that was because I just, I just needed, I needed to be efficient. I needed to be focusing on class and having fun and not worrying about getting touch ups. That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yes. Protective styles will really change your life and allow you to just like live.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  But I wanted to ask you guys too, like, once you got that freedom, college or going on to do your career or whatever, did you guys ever do anything that you were like, now left to my own devices? Like, why did I do that?

• 29:06Speaker 03

  Cosmetology school, I did everything under the sun. I had pink hair, I had blue hair.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  You did the color of it all.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  You lifted your hair, bleached it.

• 29:20Speaker 03

  And then put color on top of it. And then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair and I just blame myself. I know better now.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  And I was, you're experimenting in cosmetology school and you're just trying different looks and you're trying to be a creative. But again, it's also one of those things where my counterparts were doing all of these different things with their hair. So I was like, I'm gonna do the same thing too. And I'm learning about this, so why not?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  I'm gonna put the water in my hair too. That was your water moment.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  But my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care, nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever. And, and you know, what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture. But I didn't, I was just like, well, I'm in an educational institute, so of course they're gonna guide me in the right way.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  And it wasn't. And afterwards, I was like, okay. So then I was like, no more color, no more nothing. I'm just gonna take a break from it all. But it was definitely an experiment.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. What about you, Mercy?

• 30:18Speaker 02

  I'm trying to figure it out.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  So much.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think honestly, I've been so.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Secure in the styles that I liked since I was little. I really didn't change it too, too much. The, it's so funny because I learned it. I'm like thinking more about the mistakes that happened after like transitioning to one style to the next. So like when I get my hair braided and it's time to take them down. It was just me by myself trying to take my hair down, you know, trying to be grown like, okay, I got you, mom. I got it, mom. I was like, my hair is, my hair is, you know, stayed the same. I'd cut it like here. Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't know you had to start here. I cut it up here. It's not that, like. Yeah, yeah. And then I take pictures in my little bob, my little braid bob that I made, like, oh, this is cute. And then I take it down and then it just looks really bad. It would look, it would be like, like part of it's up here, part of it's down here. And it just was, yeah. But um, I just, I'm thinking about like those kind of little mishaps that just taught me more about just my hair overall. I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step. I've dyed my hair before, but never pink and blues. Never the pinks or the blues. It's currently dyed now.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  But the first time I dyed it was like a blonde, like it was like a honey blonde. Yeah, it was a honey blonde and it was 2020. You know, no one would care. We was inside, we was in the house.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  And yeah, that was like the one time where I really, I really dyed my hair. And it was funny because back then, you know, everything was really, really remote, of course, during 2020. So it was the BET Awards and I had to present in the, in my backyard. And that was the first time people saw like the honey blonde. Yes. We gotta, we gotta pull up that picture. Yeah. Right, right. Y'all can pull it up. Y'all can pull it up. But I think that was, that was definitely, that was a time. Let me just say that, that was a time. And then there was comments where it was like, why is her hair blonde? Like, is that a wig? And I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like, I thought I liked it. Yeah, I was just trying stuff. And my mom was like, it's okay, look, F them.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Like, you like your hair? So I, I did, I did a video that was just like addressing the haters and. That was very, very funny.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  I love that. I love the humor, but the clapback and all of that. That brings up such a good point about our hair is people touching it. Petting us, right? And like, how have you guys navigated that? Because I've definitely been on the New York subway and someone's hand is just like in my head. Where I've had superior, like at work, at Jobs, touch my hair. And it's just like. So what did you do in those instances? When I was on the subway, I was like, no, please don't touch my hair. Actually, hot tip, never touch a black woman's hair, period. You shouldn't touch anyone's hair, but like, Solange wrote a whole song about it.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  You can go listen to it on, you know what I'm saying, on Spotify. But like, don't touch my hair, please. When it was in the workplace, it was harder because this is a superior. And so like, and it was a white woman. And it's hard because you're like, in that moment, you just feel like me too. Like, you just feel like, oh, my God, that was uncomfortable. How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry in your husband's arms. And that's what I did. But, and then cuss her out, like, you know, at home with my friends. But, you know, that is a very unique experience. I feel like most black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair. Or how is that, like, I want to feel it.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  What's the texture and like, but unsolicited.

• 34:24Michelle Obama?

  But I think that's why conversations like this, why I wanted to talk about hair in the look. Because I think I want us as women of color, all the women of color in the world, with all the different textures, I want us to get comfortable, you know, with the subject of our hair and owning our beauty and, you know, and being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these circles of conversation to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they.

• 35:02Michelle Obama?

  They take for granted, or they don't offer us. That's true. And this is completely true when it comes to the workplace. I mean, you know, the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel is really a presumptuous kind of wow. How, how, how, how do, how does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair? And let me tell you, as First Lady, you know, even though I wore my hair braided in college, when it was time for me to get my, to walk into that law firm, to start getting jobs, it wasn't even a question in my mind. You just knew. It was just like, it wasn't, it wasn't up for discussion.

• 35:47Michelle Obama?

  There was a standard of hair, and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually, to get your hair blow dried and, I mean, I had a standing, we all know the standing appointment. Yeah. That is weekly. I have a stand every two weeks, but Dicky. Well, I had one weekly.

• 36:05Michelle Obama?

  And it's costly and it's time consuming in ways that a lot of people don't understand. You know, coming into the White House, and we were having conversations, I came in with a relaxer.

• 36:19Michelle Obama?

  And I, I knew the importance of making broader statements about hair as the first black First Lady, but I will tell you, I consciously understood that at least until people knew me, you know, which took eight years. Yeah. That I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation, which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now, because it always is an important part of a woman and a black woman's journey. Yeah. But I, I couldn't risk.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I know, that was such a powerful statement when you came out and said, "America wasn't ready for that."

• 37:02Michelle Obama?

  It wasn't ready, yeah. You know, I mean, they couldn't handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump onstage.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  They couldn't handle your arms out.

• 37:10Michelle Obama?

  With my arms being out.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  In your portrait. They were like, "What is going on?" Like, could you imagine if you came down with, like, some box braids? Like, they would be like, "What is that? Why is she wearing her hair like that?" You know, like, I think that that's so profound that you were able, like, because, too, you could have been like, "Screw it, say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud, I'm gonna do the things." But that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically.

• 37:39Michelle Obama?

  And there's also, you know, this is, we talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know that generationally, people get impatient and they want change now. And change is one of those things, it's like you gotta, you gotta read the room sometimes and feel the time. You know, in my mind, I knew there was going to come a point in time in my public life where I was going to get my braids back in, I was gonna reclaim that. But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with health, with kids

• 38:21Michelle Obama?

  and, you know, military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda, fashion and hair had to be a backstory for the moment.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Choose your battles, you know what you had to get done.

• 38:36Michelle Obama?

  Exactly. But I, but I, I knew that representation is important. I know that, I knew that then, I know it now, which is why we're doing this. Because now, it's, it's time. It is, we should now be in a point in our nation's history. You know, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting and embracing the differences of all of us. That there isn't a standard of beauty and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover. That's, that's taste.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:15Michelle Obama?

  You know, that's just sort of what you might happen to like.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:19Michelle Obama?

  But it isn't the standard, you know?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:22Michelle Obama?

  And we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:28Michelle Obama?

  And our beauty is so powerful and so unique that it is, that it is worthy of a conversation and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. Mersey and Yannay, I want to know what you guys also think about the, this now in this day and age, the freedom, right? You're styling people's hair and like overseeing your salon. You're out here with these amazing braids and like I, I've scrolled through your Instagram so much, like seeing all of the hairstyles that you do. It seems like there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not, or present myself in this way and not be, you know, criticized in, in, in a huge way.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I know for me, it's just about, I think in this day and age too,

• 40:29Speaker 02

  the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality. Just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else. I think that I am lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  That I am flawed in in any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make. And, you know, I trusted that. I trusted them. I trusted my family. I trusted the my my my grandparents and just the people around me that said that it was OK to do what my heart desired. And I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout. Regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said, I trusted that statement. I didn't trust, you know, anything else. So for me, that's just kind of what I I wanted to do.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  And I am happy during this time. People have started just to tell their own story and have a, you know, having their journey speak for themselves when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So as a creator at heart and somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm and just do whatever, that excited me. So, you know, I think that's just that's just the the energy that I carry in any red carpet in anything. Whether I'm in the house, going out to the grocery store, or I'm, you know, going to the next event, like, that's just that's just what it is.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  And I've had my braider, Twi, who is absolutely amazing. In L.A., I've had her since I was 13, maybe. Like, really, when I started little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I started being like, all right, all hands on deck. Who are my people? Who is my team? Like, who are the people that understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I I don't understand and have a new light and in a new lane that I can create for myself? So.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, do you bring your glam with you? Like, on projects? Are you very, like, adamant if you if someone reaches out to you for a product, a project, you're like, I'm bringing my hair and makeup people because I'm not leaving it to y'all to figure out what this face and this hair gives?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  It's really interesting. It's funny because I've gotten pickier, but I wasn't like this. I wasn't like this at all. Um, I've gotten pickier the more stories I like, that I've had throughout my life and different memories. Um, I wasn't as picky, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else. I'm like, alright, let's, let's see who's from New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course. And then there's this, this lady who came in, didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick and, um, a straightener to put in a ponytail. It was just, it was the craziest thing. I was going to a, I was going to a Prada fashion show at the time.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Oh, no. And you're probably like, oh, my gosh, I want to slay.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, that was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time. And my, my mom came in and she said, alright, you have a good one. The lady left and she said, where, where's my, uh, you know, the pom pom bun? The pom pom bun?

• 43:56Speaker 01

  We don't do this.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  And she popped that bun in, she, she drew the, the, the draw, the draw. She was like.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  And put some, uh, bobby pins in, got a little scarf.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  She's like, not today, my baby's not gonna be at the Prada show.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Luckily, Prada got a scarf, she said. Oh, let's go again. Us making nothing out of something. Yes.

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• 49:10Michelle Obama?

  Well, I, on the other hand, like my people.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love my people. I mean, she's been with you in the White House. I want to talk about this level of freedom now. Yeah, I love this. Because this is, you have been giving us looks. You two have been creating such moments, hair moments. Talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have. Now that you can kind of step away from the whole respectability politics of the White House and you can have fun. What, how does it like collaborating? Do you guys come to each other with ideas?

• 49:43Speaker 03

  We do.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Like, how does that work?

• 49:45Speaker 03

  We do collaborate.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  We need all the tea.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered. And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole glam team. It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special, is that we collaborate, asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing? Where is she going? What is she doing? And then, once we figure that out, then we go, we individually have conversations with her. And I'm like, I'm thinking this. So depending on what the neckline is doing. Like, earlier, we talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  And then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us. I think so often, black women, we feel like a slave to our hair. And that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids, right? We are a slave to the beauty industry. We have to go to the salon. We have to buy these products. We have to wrap our hair. We have to do this. We can't just jump in the pool. We can't just, vacations and freedom isn't really free. And so, the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the world and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Ooh, I love that.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  And that she can take care of herself. And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  And so, our collaboration process, like she said when she came in, she's just like, you got me out of braids. And I was like, just temporarily, but we're gonna set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Michelle, are you having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun. We've seen the little buns, the two buns. We've seen all of the things like you're.

• 51:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it is so much, it's, it is freedom. It is, um, you know, I, I, I had fun in the White House. Don't get me wrong. Um, and, you know, while I have a team, we've had, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team. Johnny Wright, who, uh, trained, um, Yannay, um, he's moved on. Uh, you know, there was, uh, uh, uh, my original stylist, uh, Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House, and Jerry, who does braids. Because of the beauty of Yannay is that she's not, she's not wedding me to her.

• 52:11Michelle Obama?

  If she, if, if, if I want to go into braids and she knows the best braider, she's gonna get the best braider in and I developed that relationship. Um, so I think, you know, there's a generosity.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Michelle Obama?

  Of spirit that goes into this, this team. It's like, this isn't my client, my thing, you know? Uh, Yannay isn't the celebrity in the celebrity stylist, you know? Because we really didn't, as I said, we weren't out front on hair and beauty. So I needed a team that was okay being in, in, in the background for eight, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Michelle Obama?

  Um, so all of that made it always fun. Um, and at the, at the end, you know, all I said to my team when I went into the White House, I said, I want to walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check and my hair in my head.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:10Michelle Obama?

  And that's the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as Black women, but I think all women go through this. I mean, I've heard this from. Friends of all nationalities, you get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair. And the color is too harsh, it burns your hair out, your hair dries out, you know. And that's, it's traumatizing. It is traumatizing to have somebody mess up your hair.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Your crown.

• 53:41Michelle Obama?

  You know, yes, it grows back, but it's still, it feels, it feels like an assault.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:46Michelle Obama?

  You know, I mean, it's just sort of like, what did you do? And why did you do this? And if you didn't know what you were doing, why didn't you just say so?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 53:56Michelle Obama?

  Right? I mean, all of us have experienced that, that, you know, that sort of trauma. I didn't have that, you know.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  You had your, your village. And was your village, I know we talked a little bit about this, Yana, but like, was your village also supporting your mother and the girls in the White House?

• 54:14Michelle Obama?

  Oh, for sure.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  So you're very intentional about.

• 54:16Michelle Obama?

  Ladies hair, right?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  All the ladies hair.

• 54:18Michelle Obama?

  Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say as Marseille, as when you were in the public eye, you, you can't have a bad hair day.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  And you were getting up at four o'clock in the morning, four thirty in the morning to work out?

• 54:31Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah. I would get up at four thirty, work out, I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and a half process. Because everybody is efficient, too. Because I'm working.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Efficient.

• 54:44Michelle Obama?

  It's like, we can't, you know, you can't take, I don't have an hour to give.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  But that's a lot of prodding and heat and that sort of thing, but your hair was able, you talk about having.

• 54:56Michelle Obama?

  Protective styles.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Protective style, extensions.

• 54:58Michelle Obama?

  We use wigs, extensions, we used it all. And something that I wasn't used to, coming out of a regular person's life, where you just used your own hair, you know, what was clear in the team is like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day, sometimes two, three times a day, depending upon, did it rain? Did you swim? Did you, and have it stay in your head? And that's, you know, so what I realized is like, oh, the only way you do that is like, you can't use your own hair.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  I love that you say in the book too, that you wanted it to look like your hair.

• 55:31Michelle Obama?

  Well, that was the other thing, because it was about the independence, you know? Because I was like, well, what if you get sick? Right. What if you, you know, what if life happens? And now I'm in some long weave and I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do with this.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 55:48Michelle Obama?

  This isn't me.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:49Michelle Obama?

  That's also the difference with me. I always had to look like me. Like, that's the other thing. The team was like, I am not a celebrity. I am famous. I'm in the public eye. But I'm, I'm not Beyonce, you know, and I don't.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I'm art. I mean, you're art. Political mom Beyonce or something.

• 56:11Michelle Obama?

  But to show up with hair down my back one minute and a snatched ponytail, that would detract. Not because it's me or because it's black hair, but if like every time I'm showing up, you know,

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Consistency.

• 56:25Michelle Obama?

  It's the ponytail that's walking into the room and it's not me. And the, the room shouldn't be looking just at me. It should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to and it should be looking at, you know, so there was some level of, let's be consistent, you know? I'm not singing on the stage. I'm not, you know, whipping my hair back and forth.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 56:45Michelle Obama?

  I'm actually in somebody's church.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:48Michelle Obama?

  Or I'm at a cemetery.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  She's like, I have to look good, but like not.

• 56:51Michelle Obama?

  Or I'm at a school. I'm, I'm, I'm on the ground with four-year-olds. We're just reading. It should have just reading hair. Just reading. Just reading hair. That's all we're doing is reading. Nothing to see here. Not a bust down.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:03Michelle Obama?

  But I'm also. Not the hair on the ground.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  But I'm also curious around the maintenance of it all, right? Are there tips and tricks, like even just like beyond the, the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good but healthy? Like what could, like, were there like things y'all were doing? Like in the White House that we need to know about?

• 57:22Michelle Obama?

  Some magic going on.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  I think the biggest thing was transitioning her out of her relaxer.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:27Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  First thing first. And then the use of protective styling, the use of extensions. Just realizing that the.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Average person doesn't have to go into extensions. And one of the things that I always tell when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity, I'm like, you don't have celebrity glam with you. Like, I first can have a wig on today and then have a different wig on tomorrow, but they have someone else maintaining it. That's not realistic for you to maintain. Right. And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it, but we were also able to maintain it in a way that if we were sick, if someone wasn't available, that she can make herself look decent. So, again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match. Understanding, can she tie it into a ponytail? So protective styles, using extensions, staying away from chemicals and knowing that less is more.

• 58:20Michelle Obama?

  Well, and constant conditioning, right?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, are there products that you loved? Like, did you deep condition?

• 58:28Speaker 03

  She steamed every appointment.

• 58:31Michelle Obama?

  I love that.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Come on with the steam.

• 58:33Michelle Obama?

  Every wet steam, yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  We had a steamer. The steam. Every appointment, every wash day. Because you did have a wash day. Every Sunday was wash day in the White House.

• 58:42Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  With everyone. Mom, the girls.

• 58:45Michelle Obama?

  Well, mine varied. It wasn't Sunday because if I, whenever I had a down day.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:51Michelle Obama?

  The girls, because they were in school and, you know, Sundays tended to be their days.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  She was regular.

• 58:57Michelle Obama?

  Grandma was, grandmas want regular hair.

• 59:00Speaker 03

  But she came to the salon. She was just like, I could just come to the salon.

• 59:03Michelle Obama?

  We have a salon in the White House.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:05Michelle Obama?

  So.

• 59:06Speaker 03

  But she would sneak out.

• 59:08Michelle Obama?

  Which is just a little room. It was like the kitchen of the White House.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  But still, I love that.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  It was mine next to the kitchen, too.

• 59:13Michelle Obama?

  Oh, Grandma.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:14Michelle Obama?

  Grandma was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  But I love this tip, steaming. Because I feel like, look, I'm a beauty editor. I get it. Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is, but it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time. You might do it when you're in the salon. But I love the fact that it's like that was something that was non-negotiable in your hair routine.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  Non-negotiable.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  Moisture.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. But wait, can we talk about the girls a little bit? I love how you were talking about how you were always like, you know, loved on and poured into. And we can see that Sasha and Malia were, that was done. From, at least from the outside looking in, and you've talked about it, you know, in your books of how much you loved on them and wanted them to have this, like, beautiful... Childhood, even in the public eye. But when it came to hair, too, I think it's all, it was so interesting that you were dealing with this respectability politics of, you know, straightening your hair and having it in a certain way, but also you're raising these two young black girls. And like, it's almost like a do what I say, not what I do.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Like, how are you pouring into them to say, you have to love your hair the way it grows out of your head, be proud of your blackness, all of that, but like, I've got to do this?

• 1:00:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I mean, they never, they never have had relaxers. I think we, I think we did a Henna once.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  We did a Keratin.

• 1:00:42Michelle Obama?

  And that didn't, didn't, once, and it was like, mm-mm, no.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Not going back there.

• 1:00:48Michelle Obama?

  And, and she was in twists, until she chose what to do with her hair. I mean, she and Sasha both have different hair textures. Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist. Malia's hair twisted up so nicely, and she had the cutest twists. And so she became a teenager and was like, I need something else. But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they, they understood the difference of, my hair was work, it was work hair.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:21Michelle Obama?

  Right?

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair and she's doing this, why doesn't she show her natural hair to the world? They could understand the nuance that, I have to do this for work, but I want you to be able to be free.

• 1:01:37Michelle Obama?

  You're little girls, and, you know, and you're girls, and your hair is beautiful. But they, you know, but, but we, because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they, you know. They saw so many different versions of beautiful. And Jerry, who had dreads, and Yone, who changed her hair every other month. Come on. It seemed. She's a hair girly. You know, they, they were surrounded by all different types of black women doing different things with their hair. Right? And generationally, thank goodness, you know, the Marseille, you guys are coming up with different messages, you know? Right.

• 1:02:22Michelle Obama?

  They do see, uh, social media. They are, they, unlike us, they have, they have Marseille. Right. You know, they have Yara, they have, they have so many, so many, uh, real life examples of how different and beautiful we are. I mean, that's how far we've come.

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• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama. And like, how, did he ever weigh in on your hair? Was he ever coming into the salon like, oh, that's cute? Or like, any like amazing reactions when you walked out? And he was like, damn, yes.

• 1:04:23Michelle Obama?

  Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were state dinners. Right? And I write about sort of that whole, because the state dinners were fun.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:34Michelle Obama?

  Right? Because it was the gown and the this and the that. And the, you know, everybody would collaborate. And, you know, there were just routines. We'd have champagne and hors d'oeuvres for the team. And we'd play music. And you'd just sort of get ready because it's special. It's a gown and, you know. Um, so we'd be getting ready in the salon. And I'd get hair and makeup done. Then I'd go into my dressing room with Meredith. We'd put on the gown and nobody, he would never see it. Right? And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown, right before we were getting on the elevator to go down for the official greet. And that's when he would see the look.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  And everybody would, you know.

• 1:05:12Michelle Obama?

  There's a look.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Michelle Obama?

  There's just a look. Trispecta, everybody would come out and wait for him.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  It's like the first look in like a wedding or something.

• 1:05:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  That you get to do.

• 1:05:22Michelle Obama?

  That's how it was.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Again and again. Would you get butterflies?

• 1:05:25Michelle Obama?

  Like, yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Anticipating how he would see you.

• 1:05:28Michelle Obama?

  What's he gonna say? This is so cute. He's gonna, you know.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  We all used to, we all used to go show.

• 1:05:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. They'd all just sit around and watch him.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  And then we go, then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see like, how does it feel?

• 1:05:41Michelle Obama?

  But he was very much a man. Like, it's like, so what does this mean? You know, if there was a long train or something fashiony hanging off that he didn't understand, he'd be like, uh, is this supposed to be like this? You know, and it's like, dude, it's fashion. It's way above your K grade.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Don't worry about it.

• 1:05:59Michelle Obama?

  You don't understand. You don't need to understand it.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:03Michelle Obama?

  Just understand it's fashion.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle. Put the braids in, let the world know.

• 1:06:15Michelle Obama?

  Well, he is always my, you know, he's like, you're beautiful no matter what you do. He's like, I don't even, I don't, I don't notice the difference in anything. So he has always been, is always, continues to be completely affirming. But he understands that women are different. That our, our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do. He has watched the three women in his life and his mother and his sisters. You know, he, and yeah, and his mother-in-law. You know, he's, he sees the work that we're required to put in. He respects it, he understands it.

• 1:06:56Michelle Obama?

  But it, you know, sometimes he wonders, you know, do you have to do all that? And it's like, dude.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  You're doing the most.

• 1:07:04Michelle Obama?

  Dude, this, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:07:10Michelle Obama?

  You know, this gown, you know, somebody.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation too.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  It's only value added, dude. It's only value added.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  I love that. When you would step out on red carpets, are you like, I don't know, like, it's so interesting being a part of the public eye, like that whole collaboration for you to go out there. How much of it also is like, are you taking your hair into consideration, right? Cause I think a lot of people is like, it's all about the gown. You go to the Met Gala, everyone's asking just about the, the clothing, right? Or going to red carpet, who are you wearing? But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl. I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges, they're like swirled, like, look at those braids. How much of your hair is, is like taken into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet?

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Completely. I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we, that we break down. I, I think it just, it only makes sense when, if there, if there's a gown or if there's a streetwear kind of whatever, it has to fit. It has to make sense. It's, it's telling the overall story, not just that.

• 1:08:26Michelle Obama?

  And Marcy, do you have fun in it? Yeah. Is it fun for you?

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  I have fun. I have fun. I think that's like the triple Leo in me. Like I have lots. I'm a triple Leo.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  I have. Lots of fun.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  You like to show up and show out.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  I like to show up and show out. Because that's just, I'm a visionary. I'm a creator. Like, that's just what I like to do.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  And

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  And a storyteller, right? Like, our hair. Like, I love the history of our hair. And even, like, braiding, right? And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair. They would put rice in our hair so we would have food where we would. Like, this ancestral lineage of our hair is so, like, deep and, like, strong and amazing. That, like, the fact that we can tell stories in everything we do.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  It's beautiful. It tells a beautiful journey. And then I look at, not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look at, like, Erykah Badu. I look at Jill Scott. I look at the women who just exude, Janaye Iko, just exude just a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair. And I'm like, wow. I think one, the pop culture one, even Dochi. Dochi has been killing it recently.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  The overall look, you know?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Remember, was it Saturday Night Live, where she did the performance? And her and all of her dancers were connected?

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  That was, I think that was Stephen Colbert.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Or Stephen Colbert.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, a late-night show.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  So amazing. They were moving and dancing with their hair connected to each other.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Dope.

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  And that's what you mean by, like, just the overall story that you're telling. It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together. So, yeah, I definitely think about it all the time.

• 1:10:17Michelle Obama?

  From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to growth in terms of how, first, we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us? I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media, it allows us to curate too, like, what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration. Of that all and we're allowed to, I mean, I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on like following folks because they're allowed to storytell and tell the world that we're beautiful and look at all of the ways in which we're beautiful. We're obviously not a monolith. I, I have a belief that, you know, there was a few years back, we were having this whole like, are you natural or are you not? Like that whole like internal beef and I was like, whatever.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  We are magical, whether I'm giving you a 23 inch bust down.

• 1:11:22Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Or if I have a sky high Afro. Like it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without, sure, there's going to be input and trolls and that sort of thing, but you can kind of zone it out. And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and like, put the people in the magazines that you didn't see, Michelle, growing up. Like that is, I know that that is part of my power. I might not have a lot of like money and like fame and all of that, but like I'm very intentional when I'm writing. I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young women's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between black culture and beauty. And so I get to be very black.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Black, black, blacky-black all the time and tell our stories, right? So like that for me is really magical and I am a half glass full girl. So I do believe we're, we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, black women, like, come on, we can do anything. We are the, the creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is like amazing. But we're all doing it, which I love. Like, and I just love that our hair gets to be part of that storytelling.

• 1:12:45Michelle Obama?

  I just, yeah, I just want us to get to the point where it's all, all right.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Michelle Obama?

  You know. We're getting there. Yeah, that the choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's, like you said, natural extensions. What is it called? The beat down?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  The bust down. The bust down.

• 1:13:03Michelle Obama?

  Okay, I just got that. Bust down. Yeah, I got you. That's new.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:08Michelle Obama?

  She don't do bust downs. She don't do bust downs.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Straight backs, like whatever we want. You talk about like wearing straight backs and it's like that. All of that is not like, it's professional. It's beautiful. It's, it's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think it's not. And it is, and we get to be the ones to say, quiet that all down.

• 1:13:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  We're beautiful. We're, we're doing it. You eat, please eat it up.

• 1:13:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Because.

• 1:13:37Michelle Obama?

  And then this point in time, when it feels like there's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes more important for us to not let the, not, not to lose ground on this. Um, you know, and, you know, for the listeners of all races out there, you know, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that we under, that we understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel beautiful, just like they are. Um, and that, that means how they go to school.

• 1:14:20Michelle Obama?

  When you see them on the bus, when they are your coworkers, sitting with you, you know, just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or giving off some message that it's not. You know, our hair is really not a message of anything, except this is just who we are, maybe just today.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:45Michelle Obama?

  Maybe just for this one moment. How much time we had this morning. You know, how much time we had today. May, we may, we are more likely than not, not trying to tell you anything other than, you know, this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:02Michelle Obama?

  You know, and we're gonna need, in this time, we're gonna need a country of, of, of fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this. You know, and, and stand with us on this. Um, and I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  You know. I feel good in their skin. Yeah. The difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing up in my city. Just listening to you, being in the industry, being in DC, it's a little different for me. But listening to you and you're just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted. And being under the public eye, you're just, you're already seeing how much progress we've made. Although at times I do feel like, it's like, man, we still got to fight this fight. We still like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say like, mm, I'm going for an interview. Maybe I should straighten my hair. And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair. And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah. Just so for people who aren't aware.

• 1:16:02Speaker 03

  Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against race, hair-based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place, locks, afros, any type of knots of any sort. And it's passed in only 28 states as of July of this year, 2025. And it's extremely important because I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived. And you hear stories, even when it comes down into the military of protocols of how we are, how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair.

• 1:16:47Speaker 03

  And in the workplace, how they're allowed to wear their hair. So the Crown Act is really not just talking about race, hair-based discrimination, but it's also about education. So you were talking about Roxy and being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture. That is not the norm. Yeah. Today, still in 2025. And so it also is going into teaching texture education in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important as well.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's so important. I really hope it gets passed federally. Because going state by state is one thing, but if we could just make this a sweeping law that you cannot discriminate against textured hair protective styles. I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there or forfeit his match? Like, it's those sorts of things that are something we don't, we shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom. And we've talked about that a lot in this. Freedom of our styles, freedom for you to be able to like move how you want to move

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  without your team, like freedom for our children to grow up and to be able to have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they, you know, they have to conform. Being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way. Like, we shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair just to live and thrive.

• 1:18:16Michelle Obama?

  Well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Yes, but we're gonna get there, y'all.

• 1:18:22Michelle Obama?

  We're gonna get there.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  We're gonna get there, all together. We're like all doing, we're all doing our part. Twist to twist. Do a little dochi. I love it, yes. But like, it just brings me, yes. Should we all connect our hair right now? Yes. But like, this is a great way to wrap it up. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this. I just feel like hair is just such, this beautiful connector of all of us. And like, you guys wear your crowns so beautifully. Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear like how we think about our hair and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  And we're gonna keep doing our part and like telling the stories and doing the things. And there is gonna be real change. I feel it. I feel it.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  I mean, it's already started.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  It's already started. It's already written.

• 1:19:16Michelle Obama?

  Let's just keep these conversations going.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:19Michelle Obama?

  At all the kitchen tables all throughout the land. Thank you all. You guys are amazing.

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