The Making of A Style Icon

On the first episode of The Look, Project Runway host and Editor-in-Chief of Elle Nina Garcia guides a conversation between Michelle Obama and African-American Literature professor Farah Jasmine Griffin. They dive into the making of Michelle Obama as style icon: what she wore growing up in the South Side of Chicago, how she evolved her self-presentation in college, and how she stepped into her public image on the national stage as the first Black First Lady. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  This isn't just about dresses and fabrics and designers.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  It never was for you.

• 0:04Michelle Obama?

  It never was.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:06Michelle Obama?

  It's about the next chapter of who we are, not just as Black people or as Black women, but as a nation.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  A nation.

• 0:12Michelle Obama?

  We have women in charge, people running offices. Diversity is important. You know, diversity and inclusion, it's not just a catchword. It's not about economics and people getting jobs. It's about us defining, creating spaces where we now know one another. So we cannot be one another's enemies. And I know this is a book about fashion, but I hope it's a reminder of what was.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  What was and what can be.

• 0:42Michelle Obama?

  And what can be.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  And what it can be.

• 0:49Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Alloy Women's Health.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Hello and welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO based on Michelle Obama's latest book, which is available for purchase now. I'm today's moderator, Nina Garcia, editor in chief of Elle, and it is a pleasure to be joined today by Farah Jasmine Griffin, who is an esteemed professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia University and wrote the foreword for this wonderful book. And of course, the former First Lady, Michelle Obama, a dear friend, true inspiration, and the reason we are all here today. Welcome, ladies. Today's topic is Mrs. Obama's Style Evolution on the World Stage from Childhood to Where We Are Now.

• 1:41Michelle Obama?

  Thank you so much, Nina.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I was going to actually also speak to Farah.

• 1:46Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  And tell you how wonderful your foreword was, how insightful, and how I felt it was so important to put into context.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Michelle's legacy in her style, not only in American history, but Black culture. I think it really set the stage and really explained so much. So really, I really enjoyed so much. And there was one part that I want to mention because I really love this line. "The look like the woman was bold, powerful, forward-looking, visionary, and empowering for everyone who dares to believe in the possibility of better tomorrows."

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  That was, you're a beautiful writer.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you. It was so easy to write about Michelle because she just makes it easy. She's a woman of style and substance. And so the fun part is the style, but the substance is the concrete part that she always gave us as First Lady and since then. So that sentence just came naturally when I thought about her time there at the White House, but also her legacy, that she stands in a particular culture and moment, but for all of us and for everyone.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Michelle, you have stayed away from the conversation about style and clothing and what that represented. Why now?

• 3:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I think it's time. From a sort of strategic standpoint, my thinking when I was First Lady was, you know, fashion is, fashion is the monster that ate up New York. It could be. It's fun, it's interesting. It's something that I value, I cherish. But I also knew that it could define, fashion could define me before I defined myself. And as you know, at the outset of me being introduced and introducing myself to the country, into the world, there were people who were trying to define me. You know, I felt the danger

• 4:09Michelle Obama?

  of letting other people write the narrative. So, once I kind of broke through and entered, I thought, Yeah, I've gotta, I've gotta let me lead and I've gotta lead with substance. And I know how important fashion is, but if, if we, if we succumb to that conversation, potentially that's all I'll be, is the woman in the dress. So I thought, let's, let's put it on the back burner in terms of daily topics. But we always, always had a strategy for how I wanted to approach fashion and what fashion could be.

• 4:51Michelle Obama?

  But I thought it was much more powerful to wait and let that conversation happen later. Now I'm, you know, almost a decade out of the White House, two books already written. And I feel like now I think the world knows me. They know who I am. They know my heart. They know my history. They know my purpose. They know my mind. So now it's time to talk about fashion.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I'd like to, I'd like to ask Farah, what moved you in those days of the administration? What, you talk a lot in the foreword about the context of being a black woman, being the first woman to be the first lady and how black women were perceived. Could you expand on that? Because I found that very interesting. And there was a lot of pressure riding on Mrs. Obama, Michelle Obama, to carry that.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  And, I mean, that must have been, that was a lot of work and a lot of responsibility. But you put it into a context that was very interesting.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yes, we wish we lived in a world where Michelle Obama could simply be an individual stepping into that role. That would be ideal. But we live in a world where we have a history and a lot of baggage that comes with that. And she stepped into the role as the first black first lady. And there were people who were resistant to that concept. There were people who were just unfamiliar with it. And then there were people who were so proud, but they also had a Ton of expectations. So there was a kind of weight of the world on her. And everything, every move, every word, every gesture, and yes, everything she wore would be under a kind of scrutiny

• 6:56Speaker 02

  that all first ladies are under scrutiny. But for an African American woman to occupy that role, who is bringing with her a legacy of stereotypes and stereotypes about what black women are and could be, stereotypes that have come out of the mouths of some of our politicians, that she is resisting that, but not in a way that looks like she's fighting, in a way that looks like she's just casually being who she is. I think that that's what I had in mind. Just how does she navigate that? And she navigated it so well. And style and clothing and fashion was one language

• 7:38Speaker 02

  that she used to navigate those treacherous territories.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I want to go back to the beginning because part of what is wonderful about this book is that you share some images that I had never seen from your childhood, even from your prom. And I know that there are stylists involved, but even back then, she had it. She had the style. How do you feel, Michelle, when you look back at that picture of you in the prom? Because that was like such a, such a moment for everyone, right? The prom date. How do you feel about her sense of self? How does that?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Well, it's really interesting. That was my senior prom. And I still haven't found my junior prom picture, but both of those dresses I designed in my head. I picked out, I knew the material, the fabric I wanted. And for that prom dress, it's the champagne color. And I think to myself, what did I know about champagne? But, but, and my mom made the dress, okay? Because my mom...

• 8:52Michelle Obama?

  Mom, like so many minority women, women of color, black women, I came from a family of seamstress, seamstresses. My great grandmother was a seamstress. Most of my clothes as a child were sewn, which was a source of great stress and tension between me and my mother because I always wanted the store bought things. You know, I wanted the Gloria Vanderbilt jeans. I wanted, you know, so I was always a little resentful. But when it came time to prom, I thought, I know we probably can't afford the kind of dress that I would like, but I knew what I wanted. So we went to the fabric store,

• 9:37Michelle Obama?

  picked out a couple of buttermilk fabric patterns. The top was separate from the skirt because I couldn't find, that was a skirt and top set. And the skirt was just a straight pencil skirt that buttoned all the way up to the side.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was a little sexy.

• 9:56Michelle Obama?

  Right, you could button it so I could leave the house with it. Two more buttons and then when I got to the car, I could unbutton and have it a little more sexy. And then the jacket underneath, I knew I wanted it all to be one color, one fabric. And in my little mind, my young mind, I knew that's what I wanted the dresses to be. Very simple, classic, timeless. I didn't want to do anything trendy. And I kind of think, I do wonder, how did I know that? My mom said, my mother said, well, you just always had a lot of opinions about who you were and what you wanted to be, and maybe that's it.

• 10:38Michelle Obama?

  But I also had an eye for color and fabrics, and I knew what I wanted.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  But don't you think, and I'm

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Deviating into this conversation about seamstress because I grew up in Latin America. And for us, you know, a seamstress was very important. We couldn't travel sometimes and get clothes. It's what, so the seamstress was a very important part of the dress you were gonna wear or something that you had to fix or hand me down from your older sister that you were going to. But that, I feel, makes you creative because you have the opportunity to kind of think about it and dictate instead of buying off the rack. You're really thinking about the process.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  It is, it gives you the liberty of decision making.

• 11:35Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I was, I was tall, I was very thin always.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  So you needed your clothes to be fitted.

• 11:44Michelle Obama?

  So yeah, the whole notion of tailoring and the importance of, because back then there weren't tall sizes. Now, you know, designers, clothing brands do a much better job of providing options for longer inseams, longer arms. But that wasn't the case when I was growing up. And it was very frustrating to pick up something from the rack and have it just be that inch or half inch too short. I was notorious for rolling up all my sleeves because I wasn't gonna have it look short. So the trick of bunching everything up had to, had to work for me. And so I appreciated the notion that, you know,

• 12:28Michelle Obama?

  tailoring people with the skills to make things that fit your body were important and valued.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Farah, I know from your foreword that your mother was a seamstress.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  How did that inform your personal style?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  It informed everything. And like Michelle, I've come from generations of seamstresses. Mother, grandmother, great aunt, they were all seamstresses. And it absolutely informed my sense of quality of clothing, clothing, self-expression, like getting to pick what you wanted, although sometimes you prefer the store-bought clothing.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Always.

• 13:09Michelle Obama?

  You always wanted what you couldn't have.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  No, we want the opposite.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  That this could be made for you, you know, that if you wanted something, someone would create it just for you according to what you desired. And that it was also, I think, you know, a sense of, giving you a sense of self and a sense of style early on. And I think that we all have that too. You look back and you say, oh, I always liked that cut of dress. You know, something about the way I felt in it or the way I looked in it carries all the way through.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Was there a fashion inspiration for you?

• 13:46Michelle Obama?

  When I was younger?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  When you were younger, that you looked up to, was there someone that you?

• 13:52Michelle Obama?

  You know, the images were limited. You know, there was never a real, direct connection because there were no models in media that looked like me, a young, black girl. There were adults. There was Diana Ross. There was Christie Love. There were Diane Carroll, but they were older people. You know, so now this is why representation matters. I mean, I felt it growing up. The teenagers were Marcia Brady, Jan Brady, the Partridge Family. You know, those were the after-school shows.

• 14:38Michelle Obama?

  So when you don't see anybody like you, I can honestly say it was hard for me to sort of look at their fashion and the way they care. Carried themselves as a direct model. I also think that going to a magnet high school in Chicago

• 14:57Michelle Obama?

  was, you know, it opened me up to a whole nother part of the city. It was a school that drew students from all over the city. So it was the first time I ran into kids, not just of all races, but all socioeconomic brackets. There were wealthy black kids at that school who had access to designer clothes and had the best sneakers. You know, so I think when I went to high school, I started seeing my peers and some, some just a bit older than me, who had a different set of resources. It was also interesting that my commute to high school

• 15:37Michelle Obama?

  took me from the South Side of Chicago through downtown Chicago to the West Side. So my daily commute often took me through the downtown area. And because of that, our half-day sessions or our lunch breaks happen downtown. So we would go into the higher end malls, Water Tower Place, Bonwit Teller, Marshall Fields. You know, so it was those kind of atmospheric kind of experiences, those chance opportunities, the high school I went to. I think that helped to shape my sense of self in fashion

• 16:20Michelle Obama?

  more than any one image that I saw on television.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Farah, I find this so interesting that you write in the foreword about black girls. Black girls are reared to represent the race well, to counter stereotypes, to be respectable. And at the same time, African-American culture prices and prioritizes individual creativity.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  How have Black women managed this tension? That's a great question.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm sure it's a tension that you felt all along, right? That, right, especially those of us who were sent off to the magnet schools, represent the race well. And it is a kind of respectability in how you present yourself, how you speak, but certainly how you dress and certain things you don't wear, and certain ways of wearing things that you don't do. And yet, we are a culture that prizes innovation and creativity. So I think the tension is, where are you creative? Where are you trendy, but not too trendy, not too faddish, not too over the line? I think that's a tension that many Black women in the public eye

• 17:37Speaker 02

  have to manage, more so entertainers manage it. But certainly, no one had to deal with it in the same way, that no one had ever occupied the position that Michelle Obama occupied.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  But in a way, that creativity that we push back on, or you push back on in the Black culture, is also so incredible and has become so important and so defining.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  It defines American style.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  It defines, and it's brought so much to fashion, right? So it's really such a paradox that we want to push back on that when it really is so important. And you speak so beautifully about growing what it was growing up in the South Side of Chicago, where it was, I am sure there was so much inspiration in the streets, in the women who go to church, in the hats. And there is a lot of dignity and poise in how.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Black women put themselves together.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  It's actually very, very interesting and very respectful.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:53Michelle Obama?

  But we also counter, we have to counter the pressure, the feeling that we have to explain ourselves, who we are, what we look like, how we're shaped. Because the industry puts forward a model of what's ideal. And that model has been consistent throughout American history. It is generally a very thin, blonde, pale, white woman. I think more recently, in the last decade or so,

• 19:35Michelle Obama?

  you know, there's all the conversation about cultural appropriation. And now, the figure of the typical black girl is now coveted. You know, people are doing butt implants and they're, you know, they're, you know, they're wearing their hair in braids and, you know, and so there's that debate among people that now folks are embracing parts of our culture that made us feel other.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:05Michelle Obama?

  And owning it as part of their style. It's just interesting. I'm hoping that this younger generation of girls of color feel more empowered, they feel more beautiful because they're seeing other races take on that style. But we didn't grow up that way.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  We didn't grow up that way at all.

• 20:28Michelle Obama?

  We didn't, we grew up with the opposite.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that any kind of standard of, because that standard that you talk about is very confining.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Not only, it was most confining for us as black girls who did not fit it, but it's confining for so many women, like black women, Asian women, Latina women, but a lot of white women. It's so confining. And I think that any one standard that says you have to look this way leaves out the vast majority of women. And so what I found so inspiring as I was looking through the years that you were in the White House was that there was this democratization, this kind of opening up of what you could be. It wasn't like you have to be this. It was just bring your best of who you are.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Like, you know, just like if Mrs. Obama can embrace who she is and be beautiful, then you can embrace who you are and be beautiful. That's where I think the hard work is. And especially for girls, you don't have to look this way. You can look like you.

• 21:42Michelle Obama?

  Carl, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. You look so cute. You know, I love you dearly.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Oh, thanks, Michelle.

• 21:51Michelle Obama?

  How long have we been working together now?

• 21:52Speaker 03

  We have been working together, it's been almost 16 years.

• 21:56Michelle Obama?

  Doing my makeup, making sure that I'm beat, that my lashes intact. It's been a fast 15 years.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  It really has.

• 22:05Michelle Obama?

  And I think I've spent more time with you than most people on the planet.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  I feel the same way.

• 22:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and it's been a good stretch of time. But I wanted you to talk a little bit more about Carl. I mean, I know your story. We've spent so much time together. I've gotten to know you. You are, besides being an amazing makeup artist, you are just a phenomenal person. And I just want you to share a little bit about your upbringing, how you got into makeup, all that good stuff.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  Okay, well, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. So my first client was my mother.

• 22:46Michelle Obama?

  Anne Page.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  Anne Page. I used to watch her doing her makeup all the time. And one day I asked her if I could do her makeup because I thought I could do a better job. She obliged, and she started asking me to do it a lot.

• 22:58Michelle Obama?

  How old were you?

• 22:59Speaker 03

  I was around 14, 15 years old. I never really thought that was a job or could even be a career until I moved to Washington DC and I got a job working in a store. They sold skincare, hair care, and they had a makeup counter.

• 23:15Michelle Obama?

  How old were you when you first came to DC?

• 23:17Speaker 03

  I think it was in my twenties. And when folks would come up to the makeup counter, I would insert myself to help them with a new lipstick or find a foundation that matched and just even do their makeup. One of the customers was an editor from a magazine and she asked me if I'd like to help her on her wedding day to do her makeup.

• 23:35Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  So I said I would love to do that.

• 23:38Michelle Obama?

  What'd you think? Were you nervous? Or were you feeling confident by then?

• 23:41Speaker 03

  No, I wasn't at all. It's kind of like behind the scenes. That's where I feel very comfortable. So I did her makeup and when the magazine came out, there was a picture of me in it. And I ripped it out and I thought, what am I gonna do with this? So I went to the Four Seasons at the five-star hotel in Georgetown. And I asked, are you hiring a makeup artist? They got the owner of the salon. We met over tea and had a conversation. She asked me if I had ever worked in a salon. I said, no. She said, are you a prima donna? I said, what is that? She hired me on the spot.

• 24:11Michelle Obama?

  Ah.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  I worked there for 15 years, having the opportunity to work with a lot of dynamic people. That's when I received the email from the White House asking me if I would like to do your makeup.

• 24:24Michelle Obama?

  Because by way of our team, we were looking for a new makeup artist. Your name kept coming up again and again because by then you had become one of the top makeup artists you might not brag on yourself in DC. Because by then you had had all this experience doing celebrity clients, doing other people's weddings. So your name was at the top of the list.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  I love that. So I feel like I was sort of like on an audition. They sent three pictures of how you preferred your makeup. So when I went into the White House, I thought it was a hoax at first. But I went to the White House and I was escorted upstairs to the salon where I stood at complete attention on my military background.

• 25:07Michelle Obama?

  You were a military kid, yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  I'm a military kid. So I'm standing at attention. You walk in the room and you ask me how I'm doing. I said, I'm nervous as crap, ma'am. And you laughed. You said, can I get you something to drink? I said, I can't drink and do your makeup, ma'am. You said, I'm speaking of water. The room laughed, it kind of broke the ice. And the next thing I know, I was being invited to go on your first solo tour as first lady to Haiti and Mexico City.

• 25:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, a baptism by fire, as they'd say, right?

• 25:37Speaker 03

  It was like a very solemn experience to where we went to a joyous experience. So it was two big things, two different things at one time. And on the flight home, I was asked if I'd like to complete trifecta. I said, yes, on the spot.

• 25:52Michelle Obama?

  We got it.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Yes, I do. And I tell this story because you don't have to rip out a page out of a magazine or go into a salon and ask if they're hiring. You can simply just list your services on Airbnb. And if you want to find me or my team, you can find us on Airbnb.

• 26:09Michelle Obama?

  And that is so cool.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  It is so, so cool.

• 26:12Michelle Obama?

  It's one of the new features of Airbnb where you can contract out for a whole range of services in a site. I think it's a clever addition.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  I do too.

• 26:25Michelle Obama?

  And it's not just makeup, but you can get a masseuse, a chef. That's amazing that somebody can access one of the top celebrities in the country through Airbnb to do their makeup.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Airbnb.com slash services.

• 26:40Michelle Obama?

  You got it. And hey, just putting in a pitch, it's like, Carl, you are so good with all kinds of clients. I mean, people may think, oh, he does makeup for Michelle Obama, but the spectrum of your experiences with race and age and class and background, you are able to work with any and everyone. So anybody who is smart enough to contact Airbnb.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Slash services.

• 27:08Michelle Obama?

  There you go. To get Carl where to do their makeup is a lucky duck.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Aw, thank you, Michelle.

• 27:13Michelle Obama?

  I am so proud of you.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 27:16Michelle Obama?

  Well, we got many more years and excitement together. And I'm happy to have you by my side.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  I'm happy to be here.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I want to transition from your early years in the public. I, one of the first times the country saw you on a national stage was the 2004 Democratic National Convention where you wore an all-white, when you wore all-white. Can you tell us the story behind this look? I found that very interesting and relatable on so many levels.

• 27:54Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I wrote about this in the book. I mean, this, you're just giving people a sense of there was my life before the White House, which was very much the life of a working mother with a partner that traveled often. You know, I had a full-time, big job. I had two little girls. My husband decided that he was going to be a politician, which was like, oh, my God, really? Can you pick just one other career? I mean, there's so much, you're very talented, you know? You could do almost anything. Are you sure politics is what you want to do? And then he got the opportunity to speak at Carrie's convention. And I literally didn't think about it. I didn't have time to think about the speech. I know he was writing it and I was listening to drafts and I was like, ooh, that sounds

• 28:39Michelle Obama?

  good, it's going to be exciting. But I didn't make the connection because I was busy, you know, dropping the girls off at ballet and doing pickup and making dinner and getting to my job. And it was maybe a week before the convention where I realized, oh, I've got to go with him. And then I've got to go on stage with him afterwards and be the wife and wave. I was like, oh, my God, I have nothing to wear. You know, I can't just take one of my suits. I think I was working for the university at the time, so I didn't have my lawsuit, you know? So I made one of those mad lunch hour dashes to probably Bloomingdale's. And I just happened upon this beautiful taffeta suit that looked...

• 29:26Michelle Obama?

  White, it was white, but it had a sheen to it. Um, and I thought this could be pretty, you know, it could pop on a stage of primarily blue, but this was all done within an hour, right? So I took it off the rack with a couple of, went and tried it on. The biggest thing was that it fit, you know? I, yeah, that was, you know, I wasn't really thinking color. I wasn't making all the decisions that we would later make as first lady about colors and background and, you know, I just wasn't in that mindset. Um, the suit fit. I bought it and I took it with us to Boston and I write about how crazy a choice it was

• 30:08Michelle Obama?

  to pick white, um, because I didn't come with a backup, which I later learned to always do. It was really instinctively, it was what, the cut of it, the, the color worked with my complexion. Um, it would feel sophisticated, but not too elevated, right? I mean, there were little subtle things in my mind, but there was no strategy. There was no thought about what this meant, because I didn't think it needed to mean anything. He was just giving a speech. We didn't know that it would, that, that speech would be the speech that would catapult him to national attention. Um, it, that was not the assignment.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Farah, you, um, you saw a connection.

• 30:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, obviously.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Immediately. And it may be subconsciously there was a connection. Can you talk to me about that? Because I think that was very important.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, he gives this amazing speech and immediately people are thinking, we think we've seen a future president. And then there are those of us who said, well, we think we've seen, if he's the future president, we've seen a future first lady and this is good. She looks great in white. I mean, the, the white was beautiful. And, um, you know, just thinking about what the color white means on the political stage. I think people often think about the Democratic women wearing white for the suffragists, but for those of us who come out of a kind of black. Historical tradition, you think about white also being, you know, what the, some of the young women wore in the civil rights movement. Or you think about Little Ruby Bridges, those firsts.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Or one of my images, iconic images, that almost mirrors your suit, is Elizabeth Ekferd of Little Rock Nine, so elegant in that.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  So beautiful.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Beautiful, in that white, short-sleeved waist, and just calm and cool as she's surrounded by this crowd. And so, we also saw that in the white, you know, just all of this. Oh yeah, she can, she can carry this legacy, she can carry this history. So we were, okay, that's our future first lady, I think.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Had you guys met at that point?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  No. We had not, we had mutual friends. Yeah, but we had not yet met, right?

• 32:27Speaker 01

  I like how you write that you had a checklist that day. I think you had to buy a present for your daughter.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  You had to get the food. And then this was the last thing on your list. And so many women can relate to that, right? Your family is first, your work. And you are in that situation where you have an event or a wedding, whatever that is. I think we can all relate to that moment. But you continue to relate to that moment for a long time. You are scrambling to like, what am I going to wear? There is a beautiful photo on the book of Oprah. And she tells us about how she came to your house.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  And you pulled something really out of the closet. But if you see it, it is the chicest look. Really, it's in your bones.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, one of my, well, the story you talk about is that after this major speech at the Democratic National Convention, Barack did become a national, nationally known name. So much so that the queen of daytime talk called our office and wanted to do an exclusive interview in O Magazine. And she wanted to come to our house.

• 33:58Michelle Obama?

  And you know. Can't imagine what that was like. Yeah, I'm thinking, oh, my God, Oprah is coming to my house? I was like, first of all, we need to paint.

• 34:09Michelle Obama?

  Where do I start? It's like, where do I start? And you can see in the picture, the kids were little, you know? They were, they were little and she wanted to meet Barack in his element and see his family. And, you know, her team said this was a casual interview. We wanted to be a day in the life. You know, this is not a big, we were then later invited to appear on her show. And she did an interview with us on the show. But this was just the first meeting.

• 34:39Michelle Obama?

  And I thought, well, it's casual. So I have a pencil capri length pants and a simple

• 34:48Michelle Obama?

  crew neck sweater in pink, just something that I would wear on any given weekend. And the girls had some pinkish, so I sort of tried to coordinate what they were wearing. You know, so we were in the same color scheme. That's all, you know, I thought about. But I, that was thrown on me. And that was the first time I thought, well, this is going to be a hassle. This public image thing, because things come up and you just never know. I mean, the office calls like this is all that I was doing. Like, well, on Saturday Oprah's coming to your house. And, you know, I'd start to get into arguments with my husband's scheduling people. And it's like, you've got to give me a little more time than this. I have to get myself ready.

• 35:33Michelle Obama?

  I have two little girls, I'm working. It was just, you know, those early days were just, it would be the hassle that any woman who is working and has children would understand. You know, that we as women, we have the burden of doing our work. But then showing up in a certain way that takes time for us to curate.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yes, and you speak about how your husband only had to come in, change his tie.

• 36:05Michelle Obama?

  Tie, right.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And he was ready to go.

• 36:08Michelle Obama?

  And he brags about, I've worn these same khaki pants for 10 years. And I was like, that's, don't brag about that. Don't say that.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  And are you ready? It's been 10 minutes. Are you ready?

• 36:19Michelle Obama?

  It's like, do you know what I'm doing in here? And I'm getting the girls ready. So, you know, those days, that was the beginning of understanding that if this is going to continue, I've got to have a plan. I have to have a bigger strategy.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  And you did have a plan. Tell me about, because you had, you built, it wasn't a uniform, but you knew what shapes fit, what looked good. Tell me how you dealt with those early days.

• 36:48Michelle Obama?

  Well, that's when, so as Barack, after he launched his presidential campaign, and I slowly but surely become an integral part of it, where the campaign has me going out on my own, primarily in Iowa, because that's the first primary state, and it's sort of the bellwether of who's going to be the leading nominee. So, we spent a lot of time this summer before that, the primaries in Iowa, just because no one knew who Barack Obama was. And I was an integral part of that. I would go out for almost three days a week. And so, I realized, under this kind of schedule, I can't run to Bloomingdale's.

• 37:32Michelle Obama?

  I can't, bit by bit, just pick up clothes like a normal person. So I was introduced at the time, and I can't remember who introduced me to, the first designer I really worked with, which was a wonderful woman, Maria Pinto.

• 37:50Michelle Obama?

  And she was a Chicago-based designer, had her own, had her own

• 37:58Michelle Obama?

  design studio with seamstresses. And that got me through the whole campaign season. And it also helped that she had a ready-made set of seamstresses. So they could make the pants the right length. They could make the

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Back to the seamstress.

• 38:19Michelle Obama?

  They could take it.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Important.

• 38:21Michelle Obama?

  So I tell, you know, people that, you know, the clothes and the designs were beautiful, but the fit was always impeccable. And that is a tip, right?

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Farah, in those times when you were seeing this going on, what were your thoughts back then about her style and about her representation?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  I think that, you know, just always proud.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  And, and really loving the way that she was modernizing the, you know, at that time during the campaign, modernizing the candidate's wife.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  That, you know, just as interested in her as a person, you know, that this was somebody who was interesting, who was educated, who had something to say, who was thoughtful and who looked good, but also looked like she was involved and engaged, not like she was, you know, just this Barbie doll off on the side, but she was on the ground, talking to little kids, lifting things up, doing things. And so, you know, there was a sense of style, but it was a style of being active and mobile in the world. And so the style was always a part of this larger story. It wasn't the only story. It was part of a larger story.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Okay, by 2008, Farah, you're right. You, Michelle, had been put through the gauntlet. Labeled angry and patriotic, emasculating. In other words, you were smart and educated and very successful career woman. How did you feel? To have so many outsized voices defining you and really going after you in such a way.

• 40:16Michelle Obama?

  I mean, it was.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  And why? Why was that happening?

• 40:19Michelle Obama?

  I mean, personally, it was shocking first and foremost because those depictions were coming from many media writers who were not with me. Right? I mean, so it was really interesting. I mean, as a campaigner, it was, I wasn't drawing much media attention, but I was drawing a lot of crowds. I mean, I was really, I went from talking to people in their living rooms and backyards to talking to people in a packed high school gym.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Authentic.

• 40:59Michelle Obama?

  It was, it would, it just sort of grew, you know? And I was doing this for almost a year before the media got hold and started writing about it, until Barack's opponents, not just in the general election, but in the primary. Right? So fellow Democrats started, you know, saying, okay, this, we're, we're running against a candidate and his spouse, who are both very powerful. And so we gotta, we gotta cut somebody off at the knees. Right? That's what it felt like. It felt like now people know I'm out there.

• 41:40Michelle Obama?

  And so then it just becomes a game of this can't be this good. So let me, now let me pick apart every word she says in a way that I, you know? So you imagine, I'm doing this. The crowds are engaged and laughing and enjoying it. It's, all these campaign events are upbeat and funny. And then the first story that comes out that says that I'm angry and that I have an axe to grind, it was, it was so counter from what was really happening.

• 42:14Michelle Obama?

  That it was a shock, that it could happen. It's like, oh, so people can just write what they want. They don't even have to be there. They don't even have to see for themselves. They were looking at the tone. They would take pictures of me making a joke with a face that was a little different, and they'd call it a scowl. And I was like, I was in the middle of telling a joke in that picture. So it was truly shocking. It made me want to initially just walk away from it. Because it was the politics that I knew. I mean, I was shocked that it was happening so blatantly. But I was also kind of like, yeah, this is what politics is. This is why I don't like it.

• 42:59Michelle Obama?

  You know, this is why I will never do it. So, yeah, it was scary. Because it's like, wow, if I am not careful, I will be defined in such a way that I won't recognize myself. But fortunately, instead of backing away, I said, I gotta get smarter, you know? I mean, it really woke me up to, oh, I've got to really, really, I have to figure out how to do this thing in a way that is smart and strategic. And I have to think ahead of the critics. It's like, I should have known.

• 43:41Michelle Obama?

  I kind of felt to myself, I should have known that this was gonna happen. But being in Iowa, people made me feel like, well, people accept you for who you are. So I had to keep remembering to separate out the media and the politics from how regular people are. That face to face, people are accepting. But through the lens of the media, social media, that's where the distortion can happen. If people don't know you, they believe that image. So I knew that I had to define myself before they did. That that was a race. It was a race for me to define myself and that I had to think about every move,

• 44:25Michelle Obama?

  every word I said, every, every shoe I wore, every, every piece of jewelry I put on. I had to be, I had to be thoughtful and strategic, which ultimately wind up, wound up helping me. It helped me go into the White House really ready

• 44:45Michelle Obama?

  to take a hold of every aspect of, of what I was gonna do, make decisions for myself and own it throughout the, the eight years. And that included fashion.

• 45:04Craig Robinson?

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• 46:29Speaker 05

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• 48:01Craig Robinson?

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• 49:15Craig Robinson?

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• 49:42Speaker 01

  Pharoah, why do you think the lens on Michelle was sharper than any of the other ladies?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Because she was the first black woman. I think that, I think, and I don't want to belittle the fact that other first ladies had sharp lenses.

• 49:59Michelle Obama?

  For sure.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  No, Hillary Clinton had a really sharp lens on her. Other first ladies, and even Nancy Reagan had a sharp lens on her. They, um, so any woman in that position has a sharp lens, but there was something.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Especially women. I feel like they really go for the women and they go really.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:19Michelle Obama?

  And they go mean.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  They go mean because they could go.

• 50:22Michelle Obama?

  And they go after how we look.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. They go very mean. And then Michelle's had a particular racial tinge to it. You know, she was a terrorist. She was the angry black woman. She was, you know, and sometimes I'd be like, oh my God, can you at least be original? Like, do you have to? Stick into the bag of old stereotypes, like be original, come up with something new. Like, come up, like, doesn't she inspire your creativity?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  But I think that, so there was, there was that tendency to just be cruel to women anyway, and to put them under the, you know, microscope.

• 51:00Michelle Obama?

  And we see it today.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  See it all the time.

• 51:02Michelle Obama?

  In politics.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:03Michelle Obama?

  I mean, I'm, I'm not in it in a certain way, but the way that some men feel like they can talk about women on either side, you know?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  It's unbelievable.

• 51:14Michelle Obama?

  I mean, the first, one of the things I wrote is if, when, when people want to control women, the first thing they do is go after our beauty.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Yes, the way we look.

• 51:21Michelle Obama?

  The way we look. And that's true across the board, across the political aisle. Women feeling like they have to show up in this one Barbie doll kind, kind of image to afford being attacked. This happens to young actresses, young, young women on social media. It is, it is the habit of the culture of the world to put women in their place by attacking their physical being.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  And it's vicious. It's absolutely vicious, yeah. And so, I mean, I think, yeah, it's, it's just, it hasn't stopped, unfortunately.

• 51:57Michelle Obama?

  It didn't begin with me, and it, it's not, it's not ending.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  No. So, we're gonna go into winning the White House, 2008. You won.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Had you, by then, you knew that you needed help?

• 52:15Michelle Obama?

  I needed to be ready, yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  And this is the formation of the trifecta. Tell me a little bit about trifecta. I love that. I love that expression. But I also love, for the audience that is watching, and that you can say it, and I can tell you. All of these women that have to be public out there need help. It's not possible to do it alone.

• 52:39Michelle Obama?

  It is.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  If you have a family, if you have a job, if you, it's, it's just not possible, even for myself, and I'm in, I am in fashion. And there are moments where I'm like, I don't know what I, I don't have the time. I have a family too. I, yes, this looks great on a runway, but in reality.

• 52:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  It is a real, you needed the help.

• 53:02Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  So you found your trifecta. Tell me a little bit about them before we go move into that date.

• 53:08Michelle Obama?

  Right, right. The trifecta, the trifecta is, it's, it's hair, makeup, styling, right? And trifecta has looked different throughout the, this, this time of me in the public eye, from the White House till today. You know, I've had a, a couple of really good makeup artists, some who've lasted, some who, you know, were in for a year or two, hairdressers who were there during the White House, but not with me now. I've mentioned all the amazing stylists in my life, from Maria Pinto to Ekram, introduced me to Jason Wu, and introduced me to my ultimate stylist and co-author

• 53:53Michelle Obama?

  of this book, Meredith Coop.

• 53:57Michelle Obama?

  There's a, the beautiful thing about the look for me is not just telling my fashion story, but it introduces people to some of the members of trifecta. And you get to hear Meredith's story, how we came to meet, her background, because so many people who work with us, you guys, they were young, you know? They were in their twenties when they started. They didn't really know what they were getting into. A lot of it is described in the book, sort of the, the process.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  It's fascinating.

• 54:29Michelle Obama?

  That we, that we set up.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  And it's like a really.

• 54:35Michelle Obama?

  Opening the curtains.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Curtain behind the scenes. What it takes to be that public persona and to have that responsibility that you carried so, so well, because I think that really, when you look back, and I remember when you were in office, being fascinated by your choices, being, and I wasn't alone. It was the entire country, then it was the entire world, because you were able to take what clothes, and they weren't just about clothes, it was really style with the substance

• 55:20Speaker 01

  helping you communicate.

• 55:22Michelle Obama?

  And that was all intentional.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yes, communicate not only your husband's vision, right, but your own values.

• 55:31Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Your own values, I mean, in everything you, in everything, you talk the talk, but you walk the walk, right?

• 55:40Michelle Obama?

  And it helps to have, I mean, it starts with the vision of the president, right?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Everything aligned, but not only the clothes. The art.

• 55:52Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  The home.

• 55:54Michelle Obama?

  The music.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  The music.

• 55:56Michelle Obama?

  Who was invited into the White House, what designers got pulled.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:01Michelle Obama?

  It all had to send a message, the decision of who was gonna do my inaugural gown. Jason Wu, that was, that was an affirmative decision, but the power of this platform in every way, from fashion to food to the events we did, it was about opening up the aperture of opportunity, and I wanted in everything we did, especially the fashion, to say. Who's new? Who hasn't had a chance at this? And Jason Wu, his story, but his clothing. You know, because we weren't, we weren't doing anybody any favors. If I didn't like what was presented.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yes, you were not going to wear it.

• 56:43Michelle Obama?

  If I didn't feel good in it, right? If it wasn't beautiful.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  But I love also when you say, when you describe it, you would, you would try it, you would kneel, you would spin. You would do all of this to make sure that, yes, I can wear this.

• 56:56Michelle Obama?

  I can wear this because it was like I was working.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  But Jason Wu, because you wore Jason Wu, and I think it was you who pointed it out, I'm not quite sure. You wore him to the inaugural ball, the second time as well.

• 57:11Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yes.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  And then the last time.

• 57:15Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yes.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  And it was almost like, it was such a beautiful full circle.

• 57:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  You loved his clothes. You connected to his fashion. It was wonderful, but you connected with so many people. I remember, I remember the, obviously, the red Narciso Rodriguez.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, so beautiful.

• 57:38Michelle Obama?

  For the election night.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  So modern.

• 57:41Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my God, it was. That was in a Crom. Crom helped me find that dress.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  That was so modern. But Narciso was established already.

• 57:49Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  But then you wore the coat, the Isabel Toledo coat.

• 57:56Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Who is, or was, rest in peace, such a good friend, but such an incredible talent that had, that didn't really get the recognition that she deserved.

• 58:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  That, like, that day, I will never forget it. When I saw that, I, I felt so proud. I felt so proud to be Latina. I felt so proud for you. I felt so proud for the Tollitos. It was just a moment where I knew, this is someone that understands. This is somebody that understands.

• 58:36Michelle Obama?

  Well, and it, no, no.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  No, it is one of those choices. I was thinking when you were talking about being proud, and I think about being proud. And those were also about being proud for our country.

• 58:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And you really worked on giving us, presenting through fashion.

• 58:54Michelle Obama?

  Well, you said, Farah, that fashion was just one of the many languages.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 59:03Michelle Obama?

  That.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  But one that is often, as we all know, everybody thinks is so frivolous. Everybody thinks it's so, but can communicate so much.

• 59:14Michelle Obama?

  So much.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  And that you used it in such a special way to uplift designers, to connect with, to wear brands that were not necessarily luxury brands.

• 59:30Michelle Obama?

  No, no.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  That really connected with the everyday woman.

• 59:33Michelle Obama?

  And using American designers.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  And using, yes.

• 59:37Michelle Obama?

  Again, you know, the international designing community, fabulous.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 59:45Michelle Obama?

  You know, I love them all. But I felt like in the role of First Lady and President, that we had a responsibility to speak to American design in a very clear way. All of that stuff was intentional and still not without risk, right? Not without criticism, because even when I got into the White House, you know, we spent so much time trying to get it right. You know, I talked about the time that I got off of Air Force One wearing shorts and was crucified by.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And they were not even shorts.

• 1:00:25Michelle Obama?

  They were almost like Bermuda. They were hiking, you know, but this is where we learned that the information we got from the West Wing team about a trip was important, because we were told we were going to get off the plane and we're going on a hike. We're going on a hike in the Grand Canyon, and it was 100 degrees. Barack just had to, he was, I was like, well, what are you wearing? And he's like, well, I'm gonna throw on some sneakers. I'm gonna take my jacket off and roll my sleeves up, because that's what men can do. White shirt, no collar, no, you know, no tie. That was how he changed. And I was like, but after this, we're supposed to go to somebody's house and there's a tea. I can't wear hiking shorts there.

• 1:01:09Michelle Obama?

  And I can't wear a dress to hike. That would be crazy.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Crazy, crazy.

• 1:01:14Michelle Obama?

  People would call me disconnected and un-American. I'm at the Grand Canyon in a teenage dress with flats. I was like, that's not how people go to the Grand Canyon. So literally, me and Meredith, we're on the plane going, shorts? No shorts? Because if you get off the plane in shorts, somebody's gonna have something to say about it. I eventually opted for the thing that felt mostly me. And it was the Bermuda shorts. Because if we're going on a hike, this is, this is how a normal person would go on a hike. Of course, I, I have lots of clothes in this plane. I could come off in anything, but I'm told that we were going on a hike.

• 1:01:57Michelle Obama?

  That we would, the, the fact that we had to spend time thinking about that kind of stuff in ways that my husband didn't, it was really infuriating. And then an article, a negative article still happened. And it was like, be original. Don't you think I know? You know, it's like, why don't, and women aren't given the benefit of the doubt? It's like, why didn't you think, you know what? There must have been something going on where she was in shorts. There might be something that I don't know, beyond fashion, that might have dictated this. But to find people who, and the, the, the writer of this article was a black woman. I felt like, I really felt like, girl. I got so much going on.

• 1:02:42Michelle Obama?

  I wanna see you hiking in something else inside shorts. And I've got so many people coming after me, right? I feel like, could you not have just given me a break?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  I have to tell you, that, that, that was, that was a little detail. But all in all, it was really spectacular. And most importantly, I really do, in retrospect, when I look at how fashion has progressed and what happened during that era, you put American fashion back in fashion. American fashion was in fashion.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Because of you. That is a very big deal. It was an incredible moment. All these designers were uplifted. All this, it was just a great moment for American fashion.

• 1:03:37Michelle Obama?

  And it was fun.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  And it was fun.

• 1:03:39Michelle Obama?

  It was so much fun. The big thing in this book that we wanted to show, because it's a coffee table book with beautiful essays, but the pictures we chose, it was like, okay, it could have been a series of fashion shots. But I was like, that eight years was alive. It was alive with fashion, you know? There was, there was always movement. There was me physically moving. There was movement in the colors and the selections and the choices. There was energy. And so we wanted to make sure that the pictures in this book, you know, evoked that kind of energy, that aliveness, that it's, this isn't a fashion book.

• 1:04:20Michelle Obama?

  It's a book with beautiful pictures of the history that fashion happened to be a part of. Because it's, fashion is so much bigger, you know? It's a statement, the power that we have as people, as women in particular, to say something meaningful with what we have on is real. It was almost like the clothes had to be so good and fit so well that they almost disappeared. For me mentally. Like, once I got dressed, as I told the team, I was like, don't touch me, don't, don't fix me. Because now, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to think about how I look. I don't want to worry about it because I want to be here for that little kid that I'm talking to.

• 1:05:04Michelle Obama?

  I want to be here for the people that are right in front of me. And if I'm tugging on a thing or holding a jacket on, if I'm worrying about getting smudged, now I've lost the plot. And the plot is the work. The plot is the people.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Right. Or if your, or if your outfit is too much, is wearing you.

• 1:05:24Michelle Obama?

  Exactly.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  That also detracts from.

• 1:05:26Michelle Obama?

  Exactly.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  You and ultimately, your values, your message, what you want to connect with the people.

• 1:05:33Michelle Obama?

  It's a delicate balance. I always said, I don't want the, the, the button, the pin to walk in before me. I don't want people to say, oh, my God, who's that wearing that, that, that, that big flower? Who's that behind the flower? It's like the message, the work.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  And it wasn't, it didn't have to do with the designer labels. It really wasn't. You were wearing J. Crew, you were wearing Target, you were mixing high and low. It really had nothing to do with designer. It had everything to do with the delivery, with the style, with the message, with connecting, with having that person at home be like, if she's the first lady, that is a dream. I could be in that, I could be that dream. That little girl could see themselves in you being like, I could be that. That is a real connection with people. It's not being so impossible, right, to meet in the fashion.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  It was so real what you wore that it really.

• 1:06:38Michelle Obama?

  That means a lot coming from you.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  No, it was, it really impacted us. And I think, you know, in fashion and this, in my industry, we were fascinated by every move you made and we really followed it very closely.

• 1:06:59Craig Robinson?

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• 1:08:07Craig Robinson?

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• 1:09:37Craig Robinson?

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• 1:10:21Craig Robinson?

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• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Sarah, I'm going to come and completely change tax here. You said because the term lady has historically been denied black women. Some believe that black first lady to be an oxymoron. What do you, what do you mean by that? Because I am sure a lot of people felt that way.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, lady was a term that was, you know, had so much meaning instilled in it. And it was racial meaning. It was a class meaning, right? A certain kind of upper class white woman. And not, we're not talking about Britain where it's a status. But here that black women were not ladies. They were women, but they were not ladies. There were even years before black women would be married. Black women would be called misses, right? So the idea of a first lady being a black woman or a woman of any color other than

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  White.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  A white woman was just an anathema. Like, what does that mean? They couldn't even imagine it, right? And so for Mrs. Obama to step into that role, for many people was just like the sun falling out of the sky. It just, you know, it just did not make sense to them at all. And for some of them, there was a kind of hostility about that. And for others, I think it was just something that they had to get used to. They had to grow into that. You know, we've adopted the term first lady for the women who are the wives of pastors, like black culture has adopted that term. But for the general culture, I think that for some people, not all, but for some people, there was real resistance.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Because we've got this long history that black women are women, but they are not ladies.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  I think our, thankfully, our kids have had more freedom, more opportunities. But they take so much for granted.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  They do.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  And it really wasn't that.

• 1:12:53Michelle Obama?

  Long ago. Yeah, that's my mother's generation, my grandmothers. These are people that this generation of kids, they know, they knew. Yes. But that's where history and one of the reasons why Farah is forward. You know, when I did this book, I knew I wanted, and I knew Farah in particular, could put the sociological, historical impact context, which I think is so important. Because, you know, we are in a battle now of who gets to define history in a way that intentionally keeps a lot of this stuff out. So our, the next generation of kids don't even know that it exists.

• 1:13:38Michelle Obama?

  I mean, if we don't teach, if we don't talk about segregation and slavery, if we don't talk about the suffragist movement, if we don't talk about the struggles of LGBT community and the history of who we were and why that was problematic. Not to place blame, not to say that it's your fault today, but it's like, if we don't know our history, we are doomed to repeat it. And so putting even my fashion journey into some kind of important historical context, I think was essential in telling this story. This isn't just about dresses and fabrics and designers. It never was for you. It never was.

• 1:14:21Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's about all the symbolism, it's about the language, it's about the retelling, it's about the next chapter of who we are, not just as Black people or as Black women, but as a nation. I mean, we should all be proud of the growth that we've made, right? We were this way, but then we learned. And a lot of that learning comes from exposure. You know, people don't know because they don't know. I mean, this is why I don't like labeling people as racist, right? People are uneducated. People are disconnected. People just don't know. But in their hearts, they don't harbor the kind of ill will that may subconsciously come out, right?

• 1:15:06Michelle Obama?

  I mean, I learned as First Lady that, I say this all the time, it's hard to hate up close. Now, I mean, and I found that when we were in the White House, we experienced so much love and support from all factions of not just this country, but of the world. Because that's who we are. That is fundamentally who we are. Yes, we had some rough times, and we need to remember that because that was based on lack of exposure. Races were segregated. They didn't know each other. They weren't allowed to interact with each other. And when you don't interact with people, it's easy for somebody to place a wedge between

• 1:15:50Michelle Obama?

  those relationships, to paint the other group as something different and scary and bad. But over the years, we started breaking down those barriers. We have women in charge, people running offices. Diversity is important. You know, diversity and inclusion, it's not just a catchword. It's not about economics and people getting jobs. It's about us defining, creating spaces where we now know one another. So we cannot be one another's enemies. And that was true in the White House. And sadly, now we're experiencing something completely different. And I know this is a book about fashion, but I hope it's a reminder of what was.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  What was and what can be.

• 1:16:35Michelle Obama?

  And what can be.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  And what it can be.

• 1:16:37Michelle Obama?

  And how different it makes us feel when it's good. You know?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  How proud we felt.

• 1:16:44Michelle Obama?

  How proud we felt.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  We also, I didn't touch on this, but I would love to hear about the 2016 National Convention. She wore.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  She made that famous speech, which I use all the time. When they go low, we go high. You noted that she wore a cobalt blue dress during the speech to represent the party and the nation. Can you talk about how you interpreted the dress and the comparison and contrast to the earlier DNC speeches?

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  Well, I just think that by then, you know, she didn't have to introduce herself to the nation, like, we knew who she was. She didn't have to be, there was no tentativeness, there was no, like, will the nation accept her? The nation had accepted her, had accepted her and, you know, proudly claimed her as the person, a person that we wanted to represent us at home and abroad. And so there just seemed to be a confidence and a comfort and a, yeah, confidence in who she was and who we knew her to be. And I think that was a little bit different from that first, where, that very first was

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  in 2008, where, you know, she has to introduce herself to the American public.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  And it was a slightly different color. It was a teal.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was very slight teal versus that cobalt blue, which is just.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Cobalt blue, which was powerful.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Powerful, exactly, exactly. It's just very powerful.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Was that intentional?

• 1:18:13Michelle Obama?

  It was pretty full circle. The teal dress of the first convention, actually, Michael Smith, our designer, labeled it Kailua Blue. And we used that, that's the blue in the Obama china for the presidential, his set of presidential china. Because it, you know, it was that, it was that first speech, but it's also the blue of Hawaiian water, which is reminiscent of his upbringing. You know, so again, it was, so for the, what would have been the last speech, it wasn't

• 1:18:53Michelle Obama?

  because I ultimately made my, what is my last campaign speech just this past election. But yes, you know, going back with a different kind of blue. You know, the second term, as we talked about, was completely different. We were no longer, we could experiment more, we could be freer with hair. But we still, I was still the first lady. And so what I did truly post White House in terms of fashion and risk-taking, returning to braids like I had in college, that was, that was an evolution, you know?

• 1:19:35Michelle Obama?

  I mean, the Becoming book tour was about glam and style. And we knew we wanted to do pantsuits because we were in dresses for, so the T-link dresses and the arms out. And it's like, oh, enough of that, you know? I'm going to be talking to ladies. And in arenas filled with tens of thousands of people who are going to be excited. So we knew that it should feel special, you know? There should be a little glitz and, you know, there should be sparkle because it was just fun and invigorating and people needed to feel that energy.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  So I found the quote that I think is your final speech. Our glorious diversity, our diversity of faith and of colors and creed, that is not a threat to who we are. It makes us who we are. That was beautiful.

• 1:20:27Michelle Obama?

  So beautiful.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  And it really, again, this administration believed it, acted, and that was, that was the embrace and we all felt it.

• 1:20:43Michelle Obama?

  And we know it's right.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yep. Yes, of course.

• 1:20:47Michelle Obama?

  We know it's right. And when we second guess it, I, you know, I guess my message to listeners is do not let any time in history make us second guess the truth of that statement, you know? Diversity matters. It's important. It's important for us to embrace ourselves first and foremost because we can't embrace anyone else if we don't like and love ourselves, if we don't value ourselves. It starts there. But we know better, you know? We know that inclusion, that opening things up, it's not just the right politics, but it's the right spirit, you know?

• 1:21:29Michelle Obama?

  If we at all, if any of us believe in a God at all. It is a God who believes in the equality of everyone, that no one owns this earth, no one owns this planet. You know, we all share it together.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  And we are all brothers and sisters.

• 1:21:46Michelle Obama?

  We are. We rise and fall together.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Together. Correct.

• 1:21:50Michelle Obama?

  And if we're lucky, we do it in a pretty suit.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you so much, Bara.

• 1:21:59Michelle Obama?

  Bara, yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Michelle, thank you for this gift. So beautiful.

• 1:22:03Michelle Obama?

  Thank you.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  It's a beautiful book. Thank you. Your foreword is incredible. Thank you for having me here to discuss this very important moment.

• 1:22:13Michelle Obama?

  Really wonderful conversation.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  In fashion history and what it did to our country.

• 1:22:39Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. On this show, my expert guest and I explore how careers really unfold, through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception, they are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.