Unmasking romance scammers: Kylee Dennis Pt.1

On a quiet Sunday afternoon, former NSW Police detective Kylee Dennis got a call from her elderly mum - she’d met a man online. Within hours, Kylee had unravelled a web of lies and realised her mum was caught in a romance scam. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Kylee lifts the lid on the murky, billion‑dollar world of romance scams - how they’re built, who they target, and the shame that keeps victims silent. She also shares her remarkable career in the NSW Police Force, from Marrickville general duties to undercover stings and high‑stakes hostage negotiations. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  The bad guys always target vulnerable people. And no one is more vulnerable than someone looking for love. When former detective Kylee Dennis found out her mum was a victim of a romance scam, she decided to use her skills as a detective to expose the scammer. Today, I speak with Kylie about her police career and the world of romance scammers. Working now as a private investigator, Kylie has made it her life ambition to expose the lowlifes behind those scams and stop them from taking advantage of vulnerable people. Have a listen to what she has to say. It will shock you and educate you about this growing despicable crime.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Kylee Dennis, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. Very excited to be here. Thank you.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Well, I'm glad. I like it when guests say they're excited to be here.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  I am excited.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  It'd be terrible if they go, "Oh, yeah."

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Now, former detective.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  You left the police.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  You bought a pub.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  And then became a private investigator.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  And your main focus is romance scammers.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Romance scams.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Just give us a sense of what we're talking about if someone says a romance scam.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Well, I sort of deal with that digital romance scam, the one that you go online, dating profile, fake profile, you engage with that profile, believing it is who they represent themselves to be on a dating app, and then they take you off the dating app and take you into this dark world of conversations, and then you start engaging with them and then send money and your world is just destroyed in a very, very basic way.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  The magnitude of it, I get the sense that a lot of times the romance scams, people don't want to put their hand up about it.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:33Speaker 00

  You feel like an idiot if someone's, someone's scammed you, and especially when you're vulnerable, you're looking for love or looking for companionship. But what sort of scale are we talking about?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Look, for us now, it's number three in Australia. So we've got the investments, then you've got business email compromise, and then romance. So worldwide, we're still talking in that top five scams worldwide. So we're talking billions of dollars lost.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  But that's, that's only what's recorded, because I talked to a lot of victims, but they don't report it.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  So realistically, we don't actually know the financial extent, you know, and also the emotional extent, but the financial extent as to what's going on. So we know that it's, you know, transnational organised crime, we know that the money is being utilised towards the drug trade, you know, weapons, whatever. But we don't actually know the actual extent of monies being lost. And certainly in Australia, we don't know.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  And saying that you're not sure how much has been reported, I would imagine if I naively went online dating and was scammed, it's not the type of thing that you'd put your hand up.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  No. That's the hard part, is that if you do get scammed, you're very much, you're upset, you're embarrassed, and it doesn't matter whether it's, and we spoke about shopping, I love online shopping. So I've been scammed with that, and I tell everybody about that, but I haven't reported that. So, you know, and I wasn't embarrassed because that was my own silly fault with a glass of wine, but.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Some of the best bargains. When you've got a glass of wine in your hand at ten o'clock at night.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, yes, I've got to stop doing that, but that's that's a whole different podcast. Um, so I didn't report that because I didn't need to report that, but I understand with someone who's lost a hundred thousand dollars, you know, that sense of shame, because then they then talk about how stupid they are internally.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Not externally, what we say as a community. So that's why they don't go and report. Because it's hard to sort of then relive it.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Because you've got to go through the the tick the boxes.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Well, we're we're not just talking um financial loss here, it's emotional.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  And that's worse than the financial. So any victim will talk about the emotional loss, the loss of what they thought was somebody of importance in their life has now gone.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  So for them, it's, yes, I have lost forty thousand and that's devastating within the financial aspect, but I've also now lost who I am as a person. You know, what did I do wrong? So there's there becomes that self blame of I'm stupid, I'm dumb, you know, and and we all do silly things in our life, but we can move on from that. Scan victims take a long time to actually accept that.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  Well, to be a victim, there's a vulnerability to start with, isn't it? And and that, and I I'm talking in a general sense here, but if it's loneliness and someone's looking for companionship, they're not in a good starting point.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  And then to find that you've been manipulated. I can imagine that it would take a long time to reset your life after something like that.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I would actually say some of them don't.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  You know, it is a real challenge because there's no there's no direct processes for them to go to. Like I, you know, I will say to them, look, you know, you need to go and seek help through your G P.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Go and find a counselor who is understanding of that trauma. You know, we've sent victims of crime to counselors when they've been, you know, severely assaulted, et cetera. And I think counselors can understand that, but this is like a, this is a digital crime. So this is another another whole different world. So you try to get them down that path, but then they've sort of got to accept that they have been a victim of a crime to start off with.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  To then go and get help. You know, it's a real challenge to sort of get them out of that dark.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  And I I don't think we fully appreciate it because quite often the times that you're exposed unless it's someone that you know to a yeah a romance scam.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  It's a segment on a current affair or a show like that.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Hundred per cent.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  I I'm sure like all of us and this is something that hopefully we dispel today when we discuss how cunning these scammers are. But we all sit there and think, how could that person be so stupid?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's uh, is it just women or men as well?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Both, both.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And I I think it's equal within, you know, we're not might be talking fifty one forty nine, that type of.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  But it is an equal, an equal sort of playing field for both sides.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  And they still, they equally don't report.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  And I think the statistics, um, women lose more, men report more. So I, and I think it's our DNA as women that we, you know, we become that sense of shame.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  You know, women, not not saying that you guys don't carry shame, please, I don't want.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  I've got a lot of things to be shamed about, I'll argue that point.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Um.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  I just don't want to talk about my shame.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  That's right, neither do I, but okay, again, that's another podcast.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's it's interesting and I and I don't know why, I don't know whether is it, is it internally with a female that they don't report as much as what a man, I'm I'm not too sure why that is. All my female victims have not reported.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  And that is that deep sense of family.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  You know, the internal, you know, fight within in within themselves. The men sort of go, oh, after they've accepted, they they go, okay, well, I think I have to, you know, it's sort of, it's interesting.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  I don't know, I I'm surmising here, but I think you see a man, elderly man, and all of a sudden a young, attractive woman's fallen madly in love with him online and it's almost like. The men culture can almost laugh at each other about it. Oh, I got taken for a ride there.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Probably it's more deep when women have genuinely looking for the love, the companionship. And that might be why they sit on it more so than the men.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Look, I talked the other day about that, that, you know, the halo bias, you know, we all have that within ourselves, you know.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  And within that romance world, well, that that exacerbates a bit more because there's someone that's come online and usually they look, you know, trustworthy. So, you know, and as a female, you sort of look at that and go, well, if you're, here's this photo, you look trustworthy or you might be a doctor, whatever.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  So then we'll engage with that where if it was at a bar, at a pub, there is a high likelihood that, not being disrespectful, but a seventy eight year old woman is not going to go up to somebody who is, you know, in their mid thirties, that's.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Whereas us blokes.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Highly, you guys possibly have a good crack at it.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Stupid enough to think, oh, yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll have a go.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Okay, all right, well, I, this is about romance scam. I don't want an attack on how stupid some men, some, not all men.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  No, no, only some, some.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Before we go further down the rabbit hole of romance scam, let's talk about you for a bit. And because you're a police officer for what, fourteen years?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Nearly fourteen, yes.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  When, when did you join and why?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  So I joined in nineteen eighty nine and I joined because I was raised as a copper's kid.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  So when I was about eleven, twelve, an incident happened at our house where our neighbour was shot on our doorstep.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  And she's five.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  And I watched, I went out there and I placed a towel over the wound of, of the victim. And then I watched. The cops, we're in a very small country town. And how they worked was just brilliant. You know, we didn't have mobile phones back then. So when the shooting had happened, dad gone outside, retrieved the firearm, brought it inside, then had to go to the phone that was on the wall. Everybody turned up in the, you know, all the cops turned up because of, you know, detective sergeant's shooting. And it was an interesting process watching how they all worked.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  You know, there was no way I was doing anything with medical because that was just too hard. But it was just, it was a well-oiled machine.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Seeing how the police.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yes, it was great. They really came together, it was structured. I mean, I'm only twelve, but I just really went, this is pretty good. This is pretty cool.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  I suppose that's, you know, a lot of criticism of police by the public and, and different places. But when the shit goes down, the, the, the police are the ones that have got to respond and, and sort it out. Where was that, can you say where it was?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was at Wentworth. So a very small country town on the border of Victoria and South Australia. Tiny little country town. It was just the best life.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  You know, back, again, we're talking back in the olden days with no, where we got to climb trees and everything. But it was, it was a great lifestyle. And being raised as a copper's kid in the country town, you know, your friends were the copper's kids. You know, we, I'd spend many times sitting in the cells, you know, the, the old police. Yeah, paying the old police blankets, they all have a smell. I can still to this day remember that, that smell. It was just a good life and we all got on, they all got on well. I mean, the kids got on well, but the husband and wives got on well. It was just, you know, I'm not going to dismiss about, it was a hard life back then too. Because of course dad was the only one, dad was a detective sergeant. So of course he was always off doing something.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  And I just looked at that and went, yeah, I want that.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  I really want that, so.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  So when you, when you joined the police in eighty, eighty nine, the academy down at Golden.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  How'd you enjoy your?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Loved it.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  I, I would say that that, I was talking to an ex-cop the other day and we, we talked about that. You know, the, back then we were. On the ladder of where we stood, you know, students were below police dogs, you know, and but they trained us hard. And and that was for a purpose because once you left, you're not going out there for fairy tales as, you know, and lollipops and everything. You're going out into a very hard world and I love that. I love that style of training. I like that, and if you wanna call it military style of training, whatever, you, I don't wanna use the word bastardisation, but it had a purpose.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  But there was, there was a degree of that and it needed to be because I liken it to, and I'm not sure how it plays out now. But break you down, which they did, and then rebuild you.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  And, you know, it taught resilience and, yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  And I think, I don't know how training is, so I don't wanna criticize it now, but I think that if you've changed the training to and and make it all fairy dust and perfect, you're doing the wrong thing to the student. Because you have to be taken to your core and then, like you said, rebuilt. It was hard. There was nothing. I loved it. There is nothing negative I can talk about six months training down there. I loved every bit of it. And I, we were pushed to, and I wasn't physically fit.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  I was in the F troop. The boys in the F troop, my god, I cannot believe we had that. Remember we used to have T shirts made up? Oh my god, they were the great thing. So the F troop, and you know, when I was running, they would be behind me and they would say the most awful things to get my lazy ass over because we had to do it in a time. But it was great. We worked together as a team and I love those blokes for it. I love that. I mean, there was only three women in our, in our F troop.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  But we worked together perfectly.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And that's, and that's what team works all about.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  You, you need to work as a team when you're out on the, out on the streets.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  So, okay, you're, you're fresh faced, you've got your shiny new uniform on and.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  My spit polish boots. Don't forget the spit polish.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  How much of a pain was that?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  You weren't allowed to do it in your room if you did, all sorts.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  cigarette lighter, oh my goodness, the things we, and I don't know whether they do that now too, but I had, we had a lot of pride with that.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Well, I, I can't imagine, but you would stand at the tension there coming in and inspecting how you made your bed.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Like, I don't know whether they do that.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  No, I, I don't know, but I, I, I laugh about it now, but it was fun.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  It was.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Cause we're all whinging about whether your bed's been made properly or your, uh, boots have been polished.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  And you stood out front of your room and you made sure they came through and it was pristine and your uniform was ironed perfectly. Everything was.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  But that's, that's what it was meant to be. They were, you know, sending you out to battle.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  I would have felt cheated if it wasn't that way.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 15:26Speaker 00

  I, I, I thought you're going to the academy, that, that's what you expect and, uh, it delivered. How was your, uh, your experiences out on the street when you, uh, started?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Oh, look, I went to Merrickville and that was, that was a really hard patrol. Again, we're in a patrol which there are only five women. And I think we may have been under the students, on the, on the, on the ladder of where we, where we fit within the organisation, which was fine because I went in there with that belief. Well, you know, you needed to work hard to prove that you were, you know, a member of this team, basically. A couple of things that sort of weren't, Merrickville wasn't the greatest, oh no, it was good.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  But it had a few sprinkles of not good.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  And, you know.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Well, we, we are, uh, it was a different world.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  It was a different world.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Policing was, policing was different, but society was also different.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  What went down at the police stations back in those days wouldn't stand up to any, any scrutiny.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  But in the same regards, it was the values of the society at the time.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  But it also, certain parts of it, so I, I did a piece the other day about community based policing.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Right. And I remember back then, walking the beat, and I know we can't do that now because we're understaffed and all that. But back then, we went to the pubs. We sat down with the licensee who just happened to know everything that fell. Off the back of a truck.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  We went to the local shops and we had coffee or we'd go down the street and meet up with Mary who's there and says, I need to tell you something. Come inside, but we gathered intel.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  And we gathered in a very basic way, but that intel formed amazing jobs that created lockups that were brilliant.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  I was always, always surprised where a crime had happened and detectives or, or police that have been in the area for a long time. Would go out or instantaneously say, this is where we've got to go. These are the people who have done it. And that, that's that type of, uh, community policing you're talking about.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And I think, and that's where we fail a little bit more now that we don't want to do, you know, sitting in the pub is deemed as, you know, corruption or, you know, even going to, you, you. In Marrickville, they'd have the closing down of, you know, KFC, I mean.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  High end food quality, you know, like so good. So they'd either, you know, you'd bring the local, the local cops, the local fireys or the ambos and they do a rotation. We've got leftover. Buckets of chicken, which are like some chicken, like, oh, high end stuff, but you know, but that's, we'd be out patrolling and doing stuff. So yeah, sure. Why not? Let's pick that up.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, you had, had your finger on the pulse on what was going on in, in the community.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Everything. And we knew where the bad boys were. We knew that, well, we'll keep an eye on them tonight. We know that they are there. Intel has said that. You know, they're going to be thinking of doing something. We'll just back off. You know, so it was just, I think it was a very well oiled machine.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Back then, but again, we didn't have phones.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Social media. We didn't have any of that, but policing was policing and it was, it was good. It was hard and you still had to run after them and.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Well, I, I, I like, I like the fact that there's sitting down, speaking to a, a former cop that enjoyed it because I still think it's one of the, the world's best jobs.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Policing.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  To this, to, for me today, it is one of the saddest things that I never got to spend more time than what I did.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I, I still to this day bleed blue no matter what.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I can, I can see in the, of the way that you're talking about your body language that you enjoy it. Um, detectives, what, where, how did that start? Because you, you went into, uh, A-listing, which is preparing to be a detective.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  So I started, I sort of put my foot in it. I I wanted to do it in Merrickville when I was junior.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And then that happened when I went into Flemington. I sort of put my hand up then and said I'd like to sort of do that A-list and go through the bullring and all that sort of stuff. So that was that slow process there. And I I I'd trained at that stage. I did the um special forces undercover commercial course for for the operation for us to do three months in a pawn shop. So I did that. And then I went and trained in the negotiators as well. And then that sort of all just, I don't know, it was like my next.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  You got got the taste.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Taste of it.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  My my next step was, I knew I was always going to be detective.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And without me knowing, I sort of followed my dad's footsteps, you know, he worked at Newtown.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  He was at twenty one division. I was at Merrickville. I went to Flemington. Dad was at Flemington. Then he went to all and like I wasn't sort of realising that that was the steps that I was taking. He went to the crime squad and all that. So I knew that that's what I wanted to do from the moment I joined the cops. I was going to be detective.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Okay. Um let's talk about the uh pawn shop um when you're working undercover there. I I I like that operation.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a good operation.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  And we're just clarify when we're talking porn.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  A W.

• 20:33Speaker 00

  P A W. Okay.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Not not O R.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Undercover in a pawn that.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sounds.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  That's a shame. I'm sure the listeners would have loved to hear about uh working undercover in a pawn store.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yes, and I always have to say A W. People go, why are you spelling it out? I said, think about it. I'm not, um it's not a porn like O R N. I don't know how that would have worked with a high crime rate around, you know, inner city Sydney. But in any case, you know, that was, but yeah, that was an interesting three months operation.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Uh tell tell us about that because I I remember when that was going down. I think it was uh Phil Mann and Martin Slot from the region I was working in were involved in it. There would have been a few few others.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Um e- explain it because it was a a at the time, I thought, a novel idea and I subsequently um had uh the former uh law enforcement officer from the U S and they got great results with that type of operation. So tell us about that.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  It was. First of its kind in Australia.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  So we had four shops. So the four regions.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Um, three, three operatives in each region. And we just opened up this daggy porn shop on the side street because we had high incidence of break and enters, um, armed robbery, anything that was within the, the property fences and, and was out of control. And I do believe it may have, may have started in the UK on a smaller level. And whoever came up and said, well, here's a great initiative. We will open up four porn shops.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  And we will collect everything. And we did, we collected everything that was legitimate and also stolen. And then, you know.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  So, so basically, I understand porn shops and, and how they work, but it's where people come in with property.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  That, uh, they want to, uh, sell the property or hawk the property there and come back and buy it, buy it off you.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  And at the time, you, you're talking about the amount of stolen properties. Heron was still in the streets, armed robbery, break and enters were a big thing. So someone to break in and steal the VCR and, and take it to the local porn shop or jewellery. And you guys were in there pretending to be, uh, just the daggy type people that are running a porn shop. And, uh, dealing with these people and asking, where did you get that from?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yep. And cause they would just, they would just talk to you.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Cause you'd be sitting down with them and they'd come in a couple of times and some were legitimate people. So, you know, you just said, oh, okay, I just wanna, you know, put this for three months. And we, we ran the business like a business.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  So you still had to ticket everything. So people still had to have their, if they wanted to just get a bit of a loan and we had to do the loan and everything. We had to cash everything up. So it was really like a proper business. But we also knew when, you know, Naughty Fred came in, we knew, okay, he's, he's done a break and enter. And slowly they'd start telling you a bit more information. So of course then you're creating intel reports, you're understanding processes, you're understanding exactly what they're doing. And we just kept all the property and and everyone got it back. Well, most people got it back. I mean, that was another process to to then give it all back to the owners.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  Well, I I remember there was a big um resolution day where we got called in. People not working on the actual operation. There's a job, everyone needs to be in here at five A M in the morning. We'll tell you what about then. And we got handed briefs of evidence. And I still remember locking up people and it was, I shouldn't say fun people, but it was fun.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Because we got photos of the people coming into the store, the property they've sold, knock on the door and uh yeah. Where'd you get this from? And so many people got locked up from it, didn't they?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  And they knew they had no way of saying no, no, no, because everything was there. Everything was digitized, everything was recorded. And and I don't believe our statements were anything too big. I think we we were, we just did more, more contemporaneous notes at that time because everything was recorded anyway. So it look, it was a great operation. It was a very successful operation. My belief was very successful.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  I know after that I went to another one, Northern Beaches, that was a flow-on effect from that, so. And more of more of that investigative side, not the undercover side.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you you enjoyed doing doing that covert work?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  No, not really. Well, no, that was fun. I was a never, and I remember training, doing undercover. Look, I was never good at drugs. I'll be honest with you. That was just, no, like weights, no, no, give me jewellery. Give me clothing. I just was never going to be a drug operative.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And we had a couple of, we had a girl that trained with us and she was a tiny little thing and I mean tiny.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  And I used to say to them, well, I'm too fat to be a druggie.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Right, you you can't, you can't play the heroin junkie.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  I do not look like a heroin junkie. And there was never going to be any reason for me to look like a heroin junkie. So I was never going to go down that path. Um I played a role with a couple of girls who, oh, sorry, a girl who was doing the the heroin side of it all and trying to get um all that sort of stuff. And I did a couple of jobs in the cross with that. Um wasn't my jam.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Sort of, we got ourselves into a bit of a tight spot with a couple of blokes who were very bad people. And I thought, this is not gonna end well.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  It is a fine, fine line. You've got to work, especially as, as a female in that environment, undercover operative.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  That's, well, you know what the blokes are after and.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yes, and that's what they're after.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  And it was, we're in a bit of tri- we're a bit of strife here. Okay, we need to talk ourselves out of this. We need to, and, and we did, and we got ourselves out and we walked down the street and we were sort of like. Thank God, okay, that one was a bit, that was a bit hairy, but we had to go back the next night. So there was a reason. We knew that the offender was committing. Um, or he had committed a, a homicide. Um, there, there was something more there, but there was drugs involved and it was just like. Okay, this is huge. This is.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  This is huge. This one was like, and I knew that at that stage, I was married, so I couldn't tell my husband.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  He knew that I was doing a, a, an undercover job, but I said, I can't tell you anything. I couldn't even tell him when I got home, went, whoo, that was.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Oh, that was, that was, that was close. That was, whoo, okay.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Exciting, but maybe a little bit too exciting.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  So that wasn't my jam. I sort of just didn't think that that was, yeah, I couldn't do that for months on end.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Um, you also had a shot at negotiating.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Tell us about that.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  They are just the most amazing team. You know, there's a team of, you've got your, your four with your, you know, your, your bosses and everything. And, you know, you're on call every six weeks and, you know, I used to, I've been called to go to Bangstown Airport. Where I jump on the plane with the, and they were men, boys in black then with the police dog. And then you'd go on this tiny little plane and you have to fly to Orange. I mean, it was just, it, that is a magical team.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm sure they're still, they're, they're magical today. They work hard. You know, we're smart, we know what we, you know, need to achieve, we achieve it together as a team. You know, you still got your primary, your secondary, you do your intel, you've got your doctor. Like, everybody was there and the boss would just, the boss was always there. So it, it was one of the saddest things that I lost when I left the cops was the negotiators.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know, you're, and you're involved in the thick of it. I was in the tactical side of it. So I was laying out in the bush while you guys are talking to the, talking to the, the crooks. But you're getting a first-class seat in some of the big crimes that are going down and, and big things. So I can imagine the excitement from it. Lot, lot of pressure there too, but.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Especially, we, there was a job, there was a job in Northern Beaches and he had taken hostage his girlfriend. And he had a knife and he was harming her whilst they were talking. And that was a very intense job. And it was, it was a bedroom. So, you know, you guys were there. The negotiators are still talking at the door. That was a very intense job because you guys couldn't go in there because the offender's, he's got the knife. You had no means of getting into that room without harming her. So, you know, you're right, you're right in the thick of everything. Um, and there were a lot of funny times when I did a job where one of you guys had had a vasectomy and he was in a lot of pain and

• 28:53Speaker 00

  That's not funny.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Oh, it was funny because we're trying to negotiate, he's moaning because he's got to have an ice pack and he's there going, could you hurry up? I mean, they were the good times.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  I, I must, must admit, sometimes when siege is out in the bush where you didn't have the tele, telephone, communication or radio, it's on the loud halers and laying out there if it was cold or hot, I'm laying there thinking, oh, for fuck's sake, give me the loud hailer. I'll talk him out because, yeah, I know you've got a certain.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Could you just hurry up? For god's sake, yeah, I know.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  And you've got to laugh at the situations because some of the situations are just ridiculous that you find yourself in.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Oh, look, I, I remember the bloke, a bloke sitting on the rooftop and we would do two things. We would smoke as a negotiator. My girlfriend, she would drink Coca-Cola. That was her jam. She just loved Coke. So when I'd negotiate, well, I would negotiate and I'd have a smoke so they'd want to smoke and.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  You can come down, I'll give you a smoke. And so they would come down, you know, you guys would help them down. I'd walk over there and before you locked him up.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Mate, I promised you a cigarette, here, have a smoke.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Done. Easy. How easy is that? Okay, that job's finished, you know, there's my overtime. I go home now and that's all I had to do was just to talk them down. And most of them just wanted to talk, you know, I mean, there were some sad ones on the gap and.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  You know, things like that, but the negotiators, they're just a great bunch. That whole, that whole team.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  You guys and us, it just worked well.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  No, I can understand why it would have been hard, hard leaving that.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Why did you leave?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  So I had my second baby and we had a few issues with childcare at that time for my second one. And my husband had just bought a pub, so he was working long hours. I didn't have any family down there at that stage. So I asked the cops for an extension. I wanted either another six months leave without pay. Or could I just come back part time, just for six months, just so we could sort of get a few things organised. And they knocked me back on both. And I couldn't go back full time because at that stage I was on call for child protection. So I still had to do that. I could have given up the negotiators, but that was sort of, that was like chopping off my arm and I didn't want to do that.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  So I resigned and I remember driving to Coggera to give my badge over and I just cried and cried.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  I, I think we lose out in, there should be more flexibility and I'm not sure where it is now. But more flexibility in people just having career breaks and.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  You know, because the way the police is set up, you leave the police and you're out and you can't.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  You're done.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  You can't come back in or you come back in, you've got to start at the bottom again.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  And I found that hard because I wanted to come back in.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to give up my detective status because I'd worked really hard for that and I still. You know, I still have that same mindset today, and we're talking twenty years ago. I still think exactly the way that they trained me in the cops. So I I haven't lost that.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Well, we're we're we're struggling for policing across the country, not just New South Wales. And I I think if we had that flexibility, there's plenty. I I saw so many police mid-career leave the police for whatever reason. They hit the wall, they needed a break and they they're angry at the cops and they left. And I I reckon I could count on one hand the ones that haven't tried to get back in.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, like they realise what they miss and.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  And if if we could open the doors for people like that, I think it makes for a better police officer. Or you get some life experience and and come back and recharge. We didn't mention child protection. You worked in that for a couple of years.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, a couple of years down the other way.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  I reckon that's probably one of the hardest areas of policing to work in. And it's always seems desperately under-resourced.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Um, a lot of pressure. Tell us about your experiences there.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  I I always thought that I had a great time in child protection. And I think my husband might disagree with that. Yeah, I think he thought I bought it home, which I didn't think I did. But I worked in the joint investigative team. So I worked with Department Community Service and and and us. So we would do the initial investigation, then hand off. If we couldn't take it, then they would then do their parts.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Look, I found it rewarding. I found it frustrating. I found it sad. You know, I I can look at some of the jobs we did. And it was interesting, we we did one, he was a young boy, he was only about eight. And we just knew, we didn't have enough, but we just knew something wasn't right.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And he wouldn't disclose. And no matter how much we sat in the the the interview room and, you know, sat down and talked to him and coloured and all that. We just, we weren't getting anywhere. And that, you know, they're the they're the hard ones. There wasn't enough for us to do anything. Docs took, you know, did their part, but they're the ones that were hard or even just going to picking up the babies that, you know, the cockroach infested nappies, you know, those type of worlds where you just go. Oh, my Lord, I can't believe that this is real.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  And, and because there wasn't under resourcing.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  I, I would imagine the pressure and it's not like, well, I say homicide and there's nothing more extreme, but if someone's been killed, unless we're tracing a serial killer.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  The immediate risk is not ongoing.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  But with um.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Children it is, yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  You make the wrong call or no, I'm too tired, I can't be called out, out now, or don't pick up the phone.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  You know, a, a child could be, uh, yeah, suffering.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That was the hardest part about it is that you wanted to solve everything.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I mean, there was a big cult thing happening down the Illawarra at that time, that more down Nowra. And I, my boss and I, we were working on it, but we still, we still didn't have anyone to say that he was doing this. The offender was doing this to the children. We, we just knew.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  You know, on a hunch and, yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And we would go to and we'd sort of go, okay, well, we'll follow them here. And we just didn't have enough. And, you know, years later, yes, he, he did get arrested and, you know, the child protection did a great job and were able to, you know, collate all that information. But we just, at the beginning, we had nothing. So it's that frustrating part that you knew that that is happening. I mean, and, you know, this is still happening today. And so today, I think, would be harder as well because now it's digitized as well.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  You know, there's, that, that adds a whole different level of just awfulness, but child protection was hard.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  And you thought, uh, you were coping really well.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Cause I, I, I mentioned to you, that would have been tough. No, I thought I was coping really well, but my husband, uh, suggested otherwise.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  So how, how did it manifest itself? What, what sort of things was he alluding to?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  I think I was very hard on the girls.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Like really hard, very structured and don't do this and not, I thought I was cotton wool and fairy tales and no, no. And I used to say, oh, no, no, it's, it's like a storybook. And I'd read the story which was going to work and then I'd come home and the storybook was closed. I don't think I did that. I think I withdrew. And they're only little, so we're still just talking, oh, sorry, tough on Bree. So she would have only just been three.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Just been hyper vigilant.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, don't do this, don't do this. So, yeah, so Michael said it was, I was very, I was a different person.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  And I was, and, and look, cops do make you tough, don't get me wrong, and, and, you know, you, you tend to become concrete for blood, as someone once told me that I had, but I still wear that with a badge because that's just, we saw the worst of the worst.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  And, and I think with cops that you can make a definitive stand on something, you know, a good cop, I'm, I'm saying, and that, that's what years and years of policing, you'll, you'll call bullshit out.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm saying.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it doesn't always make for an easy life.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  No, and look, and, and, you know, and my dad will say the same thing, you know, you, you see the worst of people.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  You know, you see the best of people, you, you know, you come across families that you love, but you see what humans can do to humans.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  And, and sometimes it can be a situation, you know, someone's introduced you, friends, group or family, and you can see right through them and go, no, I've, I've seen this person, this person's a piece of shit, we shouldn't have anything to do with him.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I, I mean, I still do that today, but that's a, I still look and go, oh, yeah, no, you're not my jam. No, this isn't happening.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  New South Wales Police loss was the hotel industry's game because you went, you went from, and it's extremes, but you went from policing to you guys owning a pub.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yes, but my husband was, was born bred a hotelier.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  So I just came in as, as I called it, the plus one.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  The one who used to just do the, the books. But, you know, going from the cops to doing book work.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Stabbed myself in the eyeball. It was boring. It was really boring. And I, I struggled and I, I struggled with that for a long time because you, you think about it, every day is different in the cops, but being back of house every day wasn't different.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  I think, I think that is the trouble with the cops. Like, people ask me, would you join the cops and? I'd say yes, like I loved, loved every day of it. But I said, once you've got a taste for it, it's gonna be very hard to find a job that's as fulfilling, as challenging. Because you, you hit the nail on the head and that was the beauty of it. No matter what was going on, you could turn up to work one day and you'd be doing things you had no idea you'd be doing. So every day had the potential to be something completely different and, and, and you miss, miss that.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Oh, hundred percent.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  We've taken you through your career in policing. You're working in the hotel industry and then something changed dramatically in your life. Please tell.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  So I receive a phone call from my mum. I'll set the scene. Typical great Sunday afternoon. It's hot. I poured myself a glass of Chardonnay. There's a bit of a theme here with me.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Chardonnay does come up a lot.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Just so you know, that's, that's just in case you ever wanna buy me one, but that's Chardonnay, unwooded. Um, so, and I'm just sitting at the kitchen bench and my mum rings to say that she's met somebody. So I was quite excited for that. She'd been single for twenty years.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  How, how old's your mum?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Mum at that stage was seventy eight, so I went, happy days. You know, great, you're gonna go on cruises, you're gonna live your best life.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  You'd be happy.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  She then says to me, his name's Donald, he's sixty nine, he's about to retire. Okay, ten years different, you know, nothing, no red flags until she said he was in Turkey just finalising a contract. Hmm, I sort of did the, oh, okay, oh, okay. Well, people, you know, people travel.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Then I said to her, send me some photos because I just wanted to be a bit nosey. So as soon as the photos arrived, I went, we've got a problem here because he looks like he's in his mid fifties and he'd just finished a half marathon. Like he was looking, he was looking kinda, yeah, one photo I went, oh damn, okay. We've got a problem, you know, there is an issue here. And I couldn't say anything to mum until I sort of had a bit more. So in the office I go and I start digging. Now, I don't know anything at this stage about reverse image searches. I know nothing about that world at all.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  And, and she had met him online, that's.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  So she'd met him on a dating app.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Dating app.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  She had spoken to him, apparently.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Via phone, very quick messages, but a lot of emails.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  So a lot of WhatsApp, right? So I know nothing about red flags whatsoever. So I go in and I start searching and about an hour and a half later, I tracked down this real estate agent's Instagram page. And I'm just going through and I'm thinking, oh, look, I don't know. And then all of a sudden, a photo of twenty twenty appears and it's the same photo that mum's got. So it's a different name, a different person. So then I started doing a bit of a deep dive onto, you know, Joe Blogs and I want to know more about him. Find out that he's married, he's got this real estate business in California. Him and his wife have it, he's got a daughter, he's got a grandson, he's not in Turkey.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  And this is all from the photo.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  This is all from photos. So I had a couple of photos.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  At this point in time, your mum's oblivious to it and she's, okay, this is.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  She is, she is happy as pig in mud. She is thinking her life is fabulous.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  So I sort of put all this together and realised that she's not speaking to Donald, that at this stage, you're a victim of a scam. And I sort of did a bit more about what does this mean? You know, I'd heard a little bit about scamming, so I've, I've sort of did a bit more. Then I rang her and she didn't do much, but she was devastated.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  How did you approach the conversation with her?

• 41:44Speaker 01

  I just said to her, look, mum, I've gone and had a bit of a look. You are not talking to Donald, he's not Australian, he's not in Turkey. Mum, those photos belong to Joe Blogs.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  He's married. Mum, this is not Donald. You're a victim of a scam. The best part about mum is that I suppose she knew who I am.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  She knew my background. She knew there'd be no reason for me to lie because I really wanted for her to meet somebody.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  So she took all that on face value, but was very shocked. And she, you know, we had that conversation. It may only went for half an hour, forty five minutes.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  She left it and then she rang me back and she said, how do you know? So I went through all the processes. I did this mum, this is this photo.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So I said, mum, all this is nothing to do with a contract. And I said, this is all stolen. So I broke it down into every little fine detail so she could understand. But it took her a while. It wasn't something that, okay, thank you for that. That's great.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  When you say a while, over a matter of days, weeks or hours or?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  No, this is, this took mum a couple of months to really accept. And then I, what I did, which I don't do to anybody now, I actually showed her the real person. Who the real person was, who the real person's, you know, daughter is. I showed her where the photos had been stolen from.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Because I said to her, I need you to understand that this is real. I, that there's no reason for me to lie to you.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  I want you to meet somebody.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  And there's no mistake here, there's no.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  No mistakes. So I showed her and then she said, well, I'm going to contact this person. And then we had to go through that process. Well, mum, he's a victim of identity theft. You can't do that because, you know, that's. And then we had to go down that, why you can't do that. And it, it took her a while, but she was, she was shattered. She was really shattered.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  And then when she went back online again, she would send me photos and say, well, no, that photo is stolen. Or that one doesn't have any digital footprints. So I don't really want you to go to anyone who doesn't have a digital footprint. Because I can't identify who they are. So she ended up, you know, finding someone real. And that's what I said, unless you can touch, feel, taste them.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  They don't exist.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  That's what you've got to do, mum.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Well, I, I want to, I want to talk about reverse imaging with the photos and, and all, all the lines of inquiry that you followed up and we'll explain that. But before we do, that one moment in time sort of inspired you to get out of the books from the hotel. And get your private investigator's licence. What was your rationale behind, uh, behind your thinking there?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't think that there was someone here in Australia that was specific just in this field. There's a lot of PIs that do a lot of stuff.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  I wasn't interested in hiding behind a tree and catching the cheating wife or husband. That wasn't mine. I wanted to help people like my mum. So I thought, well, what I'll do is that I will get my PI's licence and I reached out and I'd had my PI's licence after I left the cops. So when I got that as well. But again, that was just from, that was easy because TAFE, I just showed exactly what I did.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Prior learning.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Prior learning and the same thing. They accepted all my prior learning and I'd also done a business law degree too.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  In the last couple of years, because I was just a bit bored and I needed to do something. So they accepted everything that I had done over the last 20 years and I got my licence and went and got my fingerprints done in the police station and, you know, tick the box, you know, so they went, oh, this is.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  PI now.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I can't, you know. Okay. Now what I'm going to do with that. And then I, you know, then I created Two Face on that.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  That's the name of your company.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Two Face Investigations on that part.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Is that a play on, uh, play on the type of thing that you're looking at? Two Face Investigation?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, uh, and it was sort of like, it was either going to be second face or two face. I was trying to come up with something, that idea of, you know, the original and the, and the deceitful one.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Side of it all. So I just then sat down and I really thought, boom, this is just going to take off and I'm going to be inundated with all these people.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Do you, like on the movies, when the private investigator, you sit in an office, a dingy office with your phone, just waiting for it to ring?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, just looking at it. Is anyone going to reach out? Hello?

• 45:52Speaker 00

  When are you going to ring?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Can somebody ring my phone?

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Um, so, yeah, so I just started that and I just started, so, I mean, the business has pivoted, like it's, you know, I, I now, I've broken into two parts now. I have Scan Prevention Australia, which is more of the proactive side that we need to talk more about it. And then I've got the reactive side where I, you know, really talk to people face to face or via Zoom to basically say, listen, I don't know you. You need to stop talking to this person because of these reasons. And that's, that's a whole nother challenge.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  With the, with your, your mum, mum's one, you said it took her months to get over. What were the type of things that were challenging your, your mum? Was it the embarrassment? And I say embarrassment because I think that would come in, in the play.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Well, because she was still engaging with the scammer.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Even after you.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Even after I, she, she, she'd spent a couple more weeks talking to them because they want to see whether they can catch them out.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And I kept saying to mum, they're professional at this. It doesn't matter what you say. You're a seventy eight year old woman.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  David versus Galway.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, lives in Sydney. They, they don't, they're not going to say, oh, I'm so sorry. My name is Frank and I'm from Nigeria and they're not going to do that. So she just, I, I want to catch them out. I said, but for what purpose? That's not going to close this chapter by you catching them out.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  But just on what you're saying there, it makes me think that it's very human nature, isn't it? Like you, you think you're in a relationship, but I just want closure. I just want them to admit it.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Because in her mind, and you know, in that early stages of this might be the right person. And then it's taken away. They don't even get the closure from, look, this relationship's not working out. Or I'm leaving you because of this.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  So they, they are left in that, uh, space of limbo.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And especially when I come in and say, no, this is not who you think. And you're right.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  A stranger. Well, mum wasn't a stranger, but, and mum talked, she says, and mum's been interviewed before. And she said, when Kylie told me, I believed her.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  But I did believe her because I knew who she was and I knew, you know, everything that she did. And I knew that she, you know, made sure that every, you know, I was dotted and, you know, T crossed and all that. I knew that she was telling me, what she was telling me was right. But I still had that but in there.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  So, and that's an interesting thing that she still had that but, um. And it took her a while to talk about it. Like, cause I said to her, I want you to tell your friends about it. You know, they all, you, you live in a retirement village.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  They all need to understand, but she had that shame. She had that embarrassment that she didn't. Now she'll tell anybody, she'll stand on top of a rooftop and talk about it now.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think victims in any crime and the shame comes into it quite often in a variety of crimes. And the thing is that there shouldn't be shame. You're a victim.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  And quite often they're victims because they're good trusting people.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  And that's why they get targeted.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  And that's why it works so well.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Because we are.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  I I would imagine um family members or friends that the attraction, the love is so strong in in their minds, like the victims, that they'd push away friends. They'd be falling out with friendships and family when they they say, oh, this is this is uh not right.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I think the problem we've got there is the way family and friends initially speak to the victim of this crime, you know, in in instead of going in there with a bit of empathy and understanding and compassion, we tend to go in there and say, um, no, you're an idiot. Don't, you know, so we use negative language, which then causes the victim to retreat because the scammers are telling them, don't believe what your family say because they're liars.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Right, okay. So you're better off working with them on it and not just hitting them up front and go, you're you're wrong.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  It's a slow process. And it is something that you need to be there to support them through through this process. Cause when we talk about the way a scam and and anyone who's evil, because scamming is evil, anyone who has that skill set to be able to deceive another human is evil.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  So they have manipulated you and used tactics to be able to take you into a different world.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  So our language towards a victim of a crime has to be quite specific and understanding. And we've got to use, I use a little bit of manipulation, you know, in the kind way, not the evil way, to try to get the victims away from the offender. And that's what it is because they have put you into this whole different world of of.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Well, it is a is a world and it's a scary world. And yeah, people online dating, like that's a world that they didn't know twenty years ago.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  They're vulnerable.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  Um, everyone's looking for a companionship, love or or whatever.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  And that's what they're they're preying on.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  When it's your mum, how angry were you? Were you pissed off big time?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  I I was so excited and then I was cranky that it wasn't real.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Cause I said, oh.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. So even you, it's even impacted on on you.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was so excited for her. Look, I wasn't, I wasn't cranky, uh, wasn't cranky at mum.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I'm not suggesting at mum, but.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  I was cranky at them.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  And, and the more I looked into it.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  The more it enraged me. And that's why I started, because I just went, this is so bad.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  I don't know this. And I thought, you know, I'm pretty out there. I pretty much know shit. No, I didn't know anything about this. So that's why I went, well, what can I do to try to talk about that more?

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  So people can talk about it more. So people can, like my mum can turn around and say, yes, okay, maybe I need to question this relationship. I have not met them in person. Maybe I need to question it. Maybe I need to say to a friend, oh, look, can you just do a second set of eyes over this for me? Cause look, I've been talking to Frank for six months, but we haven't met. And, you know, I really love him, but. So it was that, that's, I got that sort of fire in my belly going, well, how do I now change that language? So victims can say to somebody, let's have a look at this.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think it does become personal, obviously, when, when it's your mother, but we do look at those scams and I, I'm guilty of it. As I suggest, most people would be, you're sort of like, how could you be so stupid?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  But, uh, you know, I, I know my mother, and it's not romance scams, but has been scammed a couple of times. And I can understand fully why she would believe what she's been told with the, the call or.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  I need your details, your date of birth, your.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Yep. My mum also, and, and this one infuriated me. I, I, and I did get cranky with her. She got done for the hi mum scam. So she got the text message, hi mum, I've dropped my phone in the water.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  She did the right thing and she rang me three times as soon as she got the text message. Well, my phone was inside and I was outside, so I didn't answer it. So then she started to engage with the scammer. And tried to send them forty seven hundred dollars.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Now, when I did come back inside and see three missed calls, I rang mum and mum said. Did your phone drop in the water? I said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, mum, don't. Have you? She said, I've tried to send the money. I said, okay, okay.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Breathe. So I'm breathing, trying to not get cranky with her because we'd spoken about that before.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  But she hadn't taken that on board. So where my dad, he got the same thing and he just didn't engage. But he got it as a voice call.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  So he thought it was me.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  But I said, Dad, did it really sound like me? He said, no, but it was a female and it had funny noises in the background. He said, but I just wanted to wait until I spoke to you again. So he took a different approach than my mum.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  So it was a real, they both went, got.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  Same.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Same done, but mum done, dad did a different approach. Where mum tried really hard to send money through her bank to the scammer. And I said to her, mum, why didn't you just ring my husband? Why didn't you ring my kid? Why would I want money from you? Like, why would I want? She said, oh, yeah, now I'm thinking. I said, because the urgency was there. So, and we want to help our kids.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  And, and that's the sad part because quite often the people that do become victims are the good, decent people that see good in everyone.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  But I, I'm with you, I, I just don't trust.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  No, I trust nobody.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  I think in, in this day and age.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  And it's sad, it shouldn't be, be the way. We might have a break now. When we come back, I want you to, to break down like the type of red flags.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  How they go about it because talking to you the other day, I, I was shocked by the, the complexity of, of what goes into those scams. It's not just some idiot sitting, uh, sitting at home scamming one person. This is, uh, big time.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  This is huge.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Um, and proactive, what can be done to, uh, prevent people becoming, uh, becoming victims. Just before we do, did your mum lose any money to this?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Mum has said she hasn't.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  And that's her story. I believe she lost a round between ten to twenty and thousand.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Because at that time, I, my brother passed away a couple of years ago, so there was a little bit of money. And mum had asked me for money around that exactly the same time. And I couldn't understand.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Why she needed that type of money. And I, I sense, and, and I've read a couple of the emails. So he was sort of feeding, I'm here for an eighteen million dollar contract. Oh no, now the, you know, it's twenty million, but I've got a few issues with the bank. So I could see the red flags within the emails. So mum has always said no, and I respect that.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I just have a gut feeling that she has and, and that's, that's her sense of embarrassment that she did lose that money. So it's a bit of a yes, no answer. Yeah, yes, I think she did, but no, she says no. And that's okay. And that's okay.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Give her the benefit of the doubt.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  I will, I will, I will say, yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  All right, we'll, we'll have a break and back shortly for part two.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Excellent.