Love bombing, sextortion and financial ruin: Kylee Dennis Pt. 2

Tens and thousands of Australians are scammed out of millions every year. However, the exploitation doesn’t stop there - a shocking number of scammers are human trafficking victims, involuntarily held in prison-like compounds and violently punished if they don’t meet their targets. In part 2 of her chat on I Catch Killers, detective turned romance scam investigator Kylee Dennis reveals the red flags that indicate you're talking to a scammer, how scammers use psychological manipulation to create a perfect storm of emotional and financial devastation, and the connection between romance scams, organised crime, and transnational criminal networks. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  In part two of my chat with detective-turned-private investigator Kylee Dennis, we take an inside look at romance scams. Kylie reveals who's behind these scams, who is being targeted and how we can prevent them. We also talked about the horrific treatment of people coerced into working these scams. I think you're going to be shocked by the magnitude of these crimes, but also learn a lot about what goes on in this growing world. Kylee Dennis, welcome back to part two.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Are you still saying it's a privilege to be here?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  It is a privilege to be here. I'm still excited. You know, I will talk underwater.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  I like to hear that. It's hard doing podcasts where people don't talk. How do romance scams typically work? Give us a, like, we've heard in part one about your mum's situation. Just give us an overview of how they generally start and play out.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  So you go onto a dating app.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  You pick your subject, the person that you are interested in. You will ask a question, you know, hi, how are you? You know, tell me a bit more about you. You'll start engaging with them. And I engage with scammers on dating apps a lot.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  And it's always photo with the, on the...

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Photo, always photo. They might have two or three.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  And it'll just be, you know, an age, an occupation, maybe where they live, you know, Sydney or something like that, and a couple of, you know, little bits of information about their interests.

• 2:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  They're getting a bit better now. They're putting a little bit more information into their bio. So then you'll just say, hi, how are you, you know, Stephen?

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Go, hi, how are you Samantha? Um, quick question. And then they will say, let's take this conversation. Or do you have a WhatsApp number? Or do you have Telegram or Zangie?

• 2:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  So we'll go into an encrypted messaging platform.

• 2:30Speaker 00

  So that that's the first red flag.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, first red flag, straight away. Even if they ask you, I want you to stay on to a dating app as as much as you can.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  But as soon as they push you on to that messaging platform, they start taking control. And then you will spend your life with your phone in your hand, replying back to them. Um, and that's your relationship.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  So they will, they will then take me over to that and then we will just start talking. So I'm currently engaging with someone now, but we're doing it by email. But I've got a couple of different um scammers because the language is different.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  And the way they're talking to me is different. So that's two different scammers, you know, at the same time engaging with me. But most of my other times are always on Telegram or WhatsApp.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Couple of times, Zangie, but yeah, I don't, I just use, I say to them, I've only got Telegram or WhatsApp.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  We go on that and then we just start talking. They start sending photos, then they start love bombing. You know, you're beautiful, I love your eyes, send me a photo of yourself, just that typical language. And then they'll talk about their job, they'll talk about their family. You know, I have a daughter, she's in boarding school, I'm on an oil rig out in the middle of nowhere. And they'll start talking and they'll start, then they'll start talking about their issues within their workplace.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  There's always like out on an oil rig or in Turkey where there was um, you know, an earthquake or they're always looking for a reason why they're not there.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  And and look, and the the question I say to everybody.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Why, you you went on to a dating app in the first place to meet somebody.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Correct. And you really wanted to go to the movies and out for dinner.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Correct, or on a cruise or whatever, correct.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Where is this person?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Why are you engaging with someone who's apparently a civil engineer on an oil rig in the middle of Netherlands or wherever?

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  That they're telling you that they work three months solid, which is not true how oil rigs work. But that's what you want to engage with. And I say, everybody, that's your red flag because you went on a dating app.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  To go out for lunch with somebody or to walk along the beach. But you're spending all your time on an encrypted message putting platform, talking. That's not what you wanted to do in the first place.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Why are you doing this? Oh, you know, I want them to go, well, she's right. Why am I doing this? I really want to have someone cuddle me or hold my hand. That's what you want.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  Well, okay, if we're looking at the red flags, it's a fairly obvious one, isn't it? The just when you break it down like that.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  It's quite simple.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  It's simple in that if you're on a dating app, wouldn't the next step be, um, let's catch up for a coffee?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Or something, something like that.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  And I always say to one, if you, I, and, and because I know I'm talking to scammers because I do all the reverse image.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  So this is when you, I don't want to sell you out as just someone desperate to find, find love.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  This is, this is, this is, uh, your business.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  This is my business.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Clients are coming to you with, okay, they've been approached and you're doing your, uh, your research.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And look.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Their investigations.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  I need to understand, and, and I have, you know, I have a special phone and, you know, certain identities, everything like that. I need to understand how scammers work. I need to understand their language. I need to understand the process from point one to point Z. At what point are they going to ask me for money? Where are they working? Is there any new jobs that they're now undertaking? Like I've had a lumberjack, I've never had a lumberjack before.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Which was interesting in California. Um, he turned out to be a 15 year old Nigerian boy, which I, at the end of the conversation, I did say to him, I, I make up a story that I'm a journalist and I'm writing an article or some, some garbage. Um, so he sent me a photo and he explained, I'm a 15 year old boy. I go to school during the day and I scam at night because I have no money. And by the way, would you like to buy me a laptop? Well, of course I said, no, I'm not getting to buy you anything. But yeah, so I do that to learn their processes, you know? Is anything changing? Is the script changing?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Are they doing differently?

• 6:34Speaker 00

  And you say a script and you've identified the fact that they're not readily available, which is.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Is there anything, starting right at the start with the photos, like, is there anything, a, a common theme you see in the photos?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Look, I always say if the photos look really good.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Um, and we go back to that halo bias, you know, we look at someone who's got a, a very good looking photo.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Or a doctor or an engineer or something that has a really good profession, we tend to trust that.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  So I, and I'm not saying that the ugly photos, like, it's, it's a really hard thing to say. Scammers will use beautiful looking people.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Or beautiful photos and, and they are, whether they've been doctored or whatever. That's my first red flag. The second red flag is how much information is actually in the profile.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  If there's limited information, just don't, just don't go there. That's, that's a red flag. Cause if I'm wanting to look for somebody, I'm putting in divorced female with two kids, a cat. I love this. I, you know, here are all my interests, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's what I would put in my dating. If I was online dating, as my fake profiles, I don't put that, I put basic information.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  And then the scammers tap on to me and then I know that they're scammers, you know, so, I mean, I've had real people too. But limited information for me is a red flag.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that, that, that ma- that makes sense. And the, the photos, well, I suppose it's a dating app, so people are going to put their best photos. So it's hard to filter from there.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Although I, there was a, a girl I, I knew that was going online dating. And she was asking me for my opinions of the blokes. I said, anyone that's got a photo with his shirt off.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  And patting a dog, get rid of them.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  That's a red flag.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  That was, that was red, red flag.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  The way I, I helped her sift through, sift through those. Okay, so limited information.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Get you off the, off the app, onto a, a different communication.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Straight away.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Um, not readily available.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  What's the, what's the next move? Then do they get love bombed with messages?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Always.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  You get told how, not that I'm saying that people aren't beautiful and all that, but you will be told that you are the love of their life. You know, I may have lost my wife to cancer, you know, five years ago, but I wish I'd met you before that. Because you are far more special than she is. So it's this intense love connection. And I, and I see how that works. I can see when if you've, I had a, I had a victim who was a victim of domestic violence for 20 years. And I could see how that love bombing would work. And she said, you know, once I found out, once I got involved and told that she was a victim of a scam.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  She said, I, I still miss that, that language. I still miss what he was saying. Those virtual hugs, the money is irrelevant now. It's the virtual hugs because she'd always been told that she was worthless in her marriage. And she was belted and, you know, really treated as we know, you know, DV victims are. But the scammer knew that. So they tapped into that small piece of information because she had told them that she was married and was a victim of domestic violence. So then the scammer utilized that.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  I'm seeing, you're opening my eyes up to it and, and taking away my judgment. Cause when you're saying that, I'm thinking, how the hell is someone saying, yeah, you're the love of my life and you haven't even met and all that. But you're looking at people that are on the apps to start with, but clearly haven't found their, their connection. So there's starting point, the degree of vulnerability. You don't know what the backstory is. And then we all love compliments. Like you can feed off it all day if people are complimenting you. So, oh, this is making me feel, feel good.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  So I, I, but the psychology of it, and then there is a real psychology to it, isn't how they just trap people in on it.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  And it's interesting because you can be taken, and I'll call it that vortex. You know, and, and we go back to, you're a widow, for example, and you've lost your, you know, like, so for example, I lost my husband. And I'm a widow. So yes, I have, you know, I want to now find somebody. So that is that first step. Vulnerability, you know, it's that strength. I mean, Brene Brown talks about vulnerability being a strength. So you put yourself out there because you think, oh, I'm now wanting somebody to be part of my life. The scammer knows that you are a widow because you put that in your dating profile. You say widow, so tick, right, I've got, so here's the first fishing hook, right? So I go in.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  There's some sadness that comes from.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And then what the scammer does is go, I am also a widow.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  So now you've got something similar.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  So then the scammer can now touch it. And now online, there are scripts out there. This is what, and they call the victims clients. If you want to love bomb a client, this is what you're gonna say.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  So this is a playbook.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  This is a playbook.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Scammers.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  So I have a 23 page Nigerian scammers playbook.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  So, and it starts off, you know, hi, how are you? And they have answers. So if I, so if I'm engaging with a scammer now, I'll go onto the playbook and I will say, oh, okay, you know, what is your favorite sport?

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  And you'll see it's a pre-formatted. I like to play tennis because, and I'll go, okay, righty, I now know that he's got the, he's got the playbook as well.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Okay, so you're seeing the narrative.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I can see what they're going to say. But that's what they're doing. They're using that playbook. Okay, we have a victim of a client that is a widow. Okay, I'm a widow.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You know, or a client's divorced. So we're gonna ask her some information about, you know, tell me a bit about, you know, how, how, how did that all happen? You know, my husband cheered on me. Tip, okay, now I can tap into that. So they just take those bits of information and then start creating that narrative. And once you're taken into this, this world and you are isolated, and I can feel it because some days I'm going, when are they gonna text me? I've asked them a question. I want them, I want them to answer. I know I'm talking to a scammer. I just wanna see what their next strategy is. Now, if I was falling for that, of course you sit there with your phone and wanting that connection

• 12:56Speaker 01

  because now you're starting to connect with someone who's interested in you.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  And if you start flirting with someone via text. It can become addictive, can't it?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  So can I imagine, I can imagine they're getting the rush of the excitement. Oh, he's contacted me again or she's contacted me again. And a little bit, as it builds up, a little bit of flirtation and yeah, the connection.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  And, and, and you hit the nail on the head. If someone tells you, you look great.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  You just go, oh.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Oh, cool. Let's keep going.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Oh, this is, this, I'm feeling a million dollars.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  And that's all they have to do is say, your eyes are beautiful.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I love your smile. Now, if, if you're, and we go back to my DV girl, she didn't have any of that.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  So, okay, yeah, I, I can see it.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  You see that? And, and, and that's why I try to say to everyone, this is not about being stupid. This is about a background that someone's gone through. And I'll use my mum. My mum has been single for 20 years.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  So when Donald, the scammer came in on, and he was saying to her, I can't wait to spend time with you.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  We are going to go on a cruise. We're going to build this. And I could see all this love language. And knowing what my mum wanted.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  This tapped into exactly what she was missing in her life. Yeah. And that's what they do. So victims aren't stupid.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  They're just listening to someone, because why would they believe that it's a scammer?

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  There's no reason for them to believe that.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Well, I, I, I think they're in that vortex of, of so looking for that companionship. And it is a private thing when you're first starting off a relationship. So you're not sharing it with everyone and.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  And, yeah, with your mum, it's sort of, even if it was a legitimate one.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  She'd be a bit hesitant in telling anyone that I'm starting to see someone. So I can imagine why they, they'd sit, sit on that. When does it go into, okay, what, how do they start getting the, getting the money or, or making a benefit from it?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  So they just start telling a story. So, so they will start, and it is drip feeding. They're not, I mean, I've had a few that have very, been very quick, uh, wanting money straight away. But normally they will start with, and we'll use the oil rig, for example.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Um, look, I can't video call you. We've got a bit of problem. With wifi, I can't get to my bank. Um. Would you be able to just send me, you know, some money? The only way we can do it is through a gift card.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  You know, oh yeah, how much you need? Look, thirty dollars would be all right. So you, you know, you hoff off down to Woolies, pick up your gift card, come back, you take a photo of the back of the, the gift card with the code and you send it to them, right? So it is that slow drip feat.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  And that, that could be like I would imagine if I was trying to create a narrative there, I'm on an oil rig, internet's down or whatever, can't get access to my bank accounts, but it's my child's, um, yeah, birthday. I just need to send him, send him something.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Something. So if you send me the gift card, I will then be able to send that on. Oh, that sounds legitimate. Okay, that's fine.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  And you're, you're thinking, you're not asking, he's not asking the world, he's just asking for a thirty dollar gift card.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  That's right, thirty dollars. And then that just slowly creeps up.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  You know, uh, there's an urgency. Um, I think one of the scammers said to me, look, I've got some problems with the tools that are on the, the oil rig. I need to buy some extra tool, you know, like, it doesn't make any sense, but remember, when you're involved with that person, that does make sense.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Because they have laid the foundations and now they're just slowly starting to build the house.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  So they have done that, you know, maybe in six weeks of laying or a couple of months. Then all of a sudden they're saying, you've got a problem with, you know, something to do with the workers and I need to do this. And then all of a sudden you're then sending money or I've got this great investment opportunity.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Just found out, please don't tell anybody, this is just between you and I. So they then start feeding that part. So it's that they're drip feeding urgency and necessity and you're the only one that is going to be able to help me.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I can, I can see how it happens.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  And I also like the internet and social media and that has evolved so quickly.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  People haven't caught up with it and like, I would, not now, I'm not that naive, but if someone's a photo, well, that's a person. There's a photo, like how.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  And trust it. And I would imagine from a generational thing, even older people would, well, it's online. I've seen his photo.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  He exists.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  And why would they question that? Because they're not inclined to question it, you know, uh, maybe an eighteen year old or twenty year old would in, would question more things online than what an older person, this is in the romance world.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  They would look at that saying, well, that's a real person that has gone on to that dating app, has paid for that privilege to be on to that dating app. So they must be real.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  They don't think, well, how many people on this dating app is not real.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  You know, and, and don't get me wrong, all dating apps can have fake people in them. I mean, I, I know there are some dating apps that have got, you know, the ability to be able to, you've got to, you know, do a reverse tick image, but I've done that using my fake profile.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Explain the reverse tick image.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  What they've asked me to do on one of the dating things was to take a photo of myself, a live, moving photo. And then they will ver- self verify myself to say that that photo is real.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  But the photo that's on my dating profile is my photo, but it's been tweaked a bit through A I to make me look a little bit older and a little bigger and all this sort of stuff. So the two photos are not similar.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  But the app has just ticked the box to say self verified. So this is right. So that looks legitimate.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  So again, that doesn't actually work. There's some great apps out there now that I think that you actually have to do this. You've got to talk, you've got to show identification and, and different bits and pieces. But some of the basic ones, you don't have to do that. I mean, some of the ones I haven't been able to get on, that's fine, which is, which is fine. But scammers are a little bit better at manipulating the system than possibly than what I do.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  It's a different level on, like on, on the dating apps that, um, yeah, people I would imagine misrepresent themselves, but they're not after the finances. They're just after the short term relationships. So there'd be a lot of that. So you push that aside.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  But the scammers are at a different, different level, aren't they?

• 19:19Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  They're, they're at the pure evil level. Their, their sole purpose is financial destruction.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  And, and that's their end goal.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  As distinct from someone on there, I'm looking for a long term relationship. Hey, can we catch up? And want to sleep with the person that, that night.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Correct. That's a different.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  But the scammers are patient.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  And that in their, their preparation to drag it on, that would give comfort to people as well, I would imagine.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Because why would you question it?

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  They're, they're talking to me every day. And the thing that we've got to realise, it's just, they're not just. Talking to my profile, you know, my Robert and my Samantha, they're talking to half a dozen or dozens of other people.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  They're having.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  It's it's just continuing, you know, and it's interesting because a couple of times I've actually, when I've spoken to them, they've got my name mixed up.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  So they've called me something else.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  A red flag, isn't it?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  But I know that that's a red flag. But if if it was, you know, say it was my mum who really wasn't thinking twice about it and said, why did you call me, you know, Michelle?

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  They would go, oh, I'm so sorry.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  That's my mother's name or something.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I I was just talking to someone else where I know, okay, now you're talking to.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  You've slipped up.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've slipped up. And that's what we've got to understand. It's not just that one person sitting in a cafe or in their garage at home.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  This is, this is a well oiled machine. This is whiteboards. This is, we know that we can get us Aussies, we know if we go on this dating app, we can get this.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  And and see a dating app from a naive point of view, I think you'd be looking at being taken advantage of emotionally in a a quick hookup and then block them.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  So that's the warning signs they're looking at, but these scammers are coming in with a completely different agenda.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  And I could see how the the potential victims miss.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Miss it all.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And and and again, because I suppose, and this is where we're failing in the way that we're educating, right? Because I have a big problem with everything has to be online. You know, you're defeating, we're basically working alongside scammers, you know, we we want everybody to go online and do everything online. We're failing everybody, certainly in Australia, with face to face. We don't do this.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  This is what we need to do more because we need to teach people and and older Australians as well. And and I say I'm fifty six, so when I talk, I say us oldies. We need to, you know, be front and centre and teach people exactly what they're doing. So we've got to stop doing the digitised learnings and teach people and show them, well, here's a script. Here is what scammers would do in any. Scam, we need to learn from each other. We need to have that conversation where it's easy for us to say, well, I was a victim. That's okay, Mary. Okay, you too, Rob. Yeah, that's great. What can we learn from that? Because scammers want us to be isolated. That's

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Well, is that, is that another part that I'm sure I can't wait to tell my family about you, you being the victim, saying that to, what's their playbook for that? Oh, look, they probably won't understand.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So they will actually say to you, don't tell any family and friends about our relationship. It is that special. They won't understand. Just, and, and again, you've found somebody, you know, in inverted commas, you've found somebody. So you're not, I mean, my mum spoke to her scammer for six months. Now, she had.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  See, that fills a loneliness void to start with, doesn't it?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And I used to say to her, at what point did you not think that talking to him at 11 o'clock at night, I know that he was in Turkey, I understand that, that was not healthy for you? You know, you, you're, you're in this isolate, you're still in your room, in your, where you live, in your residence, you're not engaging with anybody else. You're talking to this person online that is giving you that sense of comfort. And what they would say is that, you know, I will talk to you tomorrow, my beautiful love. So the first, the last person they talk to and the first person they talk to when they wake up. So when you've been alone for so long, scammers know that. This is

• 23:33Speaker 01

  great. I will be there. Remember, it's not the one scammer. I'll be there when she goes to bed and I'll be there first thing in the morning. And that's the first person.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  You, you wake up and you're excited. Oh, look.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. You know, Frank's, you know, Donald sent me a text message. Oh, great. I'll start doing it. But my mum, I noticed that she was sleeping in longer. So she was speaking to the scammers at two o'clock in the morning.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And then was, you know, not waking up until midday and was missing a few, like, was late to a few, you know, family functions and, and was always tired. And I, I just thought it was a health issue because I'd say, you know, what's going on? No, nothing. Because the scammer had isolated her and told her not to tell anybody.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  So if they'd actually told me earlier, maybe I'd picked it up earlier.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  From the financial gain side, so we we talked about, yeah, a gift card.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Um.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  How how does it build up to to more than that? Do they get access to bank accounts? Do they look for bank accounts?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  They can they can ask you to create bank accounts. They will ask you to transfer monies. My mate needs some help. Can you do this for me? Which we know is illicit funds. So you transfer from one bank account to another. They've, I've had victims who have gone and got loans, some taken money off their home loan. Not not in not in major, major lots, but might just go in and say, look, I need ten thousand because, right, the the scammer said, well, I want us to buy something. I just need a ten thousand dollar, you know, loan. Once that happens, I'll be able to pay you back. You're not a problem. They go and take money off their home loan, their savings, and they send it off to them through Western transfers and things like that.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Ever get that complicated where the scammers will send some money as a show of faith? Like, I borrow a hundred and I need a hundred for the gift card and then a week later pay that hundred back?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  And then sort of, oh, well, is trustworthy.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. You'll get flowers. You might get a fake piece of jewellery. Like, like, sort of, I haven't had that done. Um, but I know of people that have had, you know, but they've sent me this and they've sent me photos of the house and they've sent, you know, something that legitimise that story, because that's all it is. It's just, I've received flowers for my birthday from, you know, my love interest, because you've you've given them your home address. I'm not giving my home address to anybody. But they do give their home address. So they're going to get something in return. And you think about, you spend a hundred dollar gift card and the scammer wants to make sure that we're in the right relationship. Well, I'll give that back to you. It was just a borrowed.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  That that would set everyone up going, well, they're trustworthy. I've sent it and it's come back.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  So what's the biggest one that you've seen? Like, as in someone that's lost significant, without naming names or the people that you've dealt with.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  I've I've had two. I've had. A CEO of a female.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Smart chick. She lost half a million through an in romance investment.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And she just, she's, she's devastated. Like, and, and they're all devastated, everybody's devastated. But she said, you know, I'm more embarrassed that I'm intelligent. She's in her fifties and she just went down that romance that led into the, um, the investment side. Then I had a, a, a hard one. He, he's, he's passed away. So he was invested in these scammers for years. So the ex-wife reached out to me and, um, I put a whole thing together to say that that is, you know, that photo is this, and this is where we believe the origins of where you're talking from. The, the phone numbers, they originate from Nigeria, et cetera. So, so, you know, I, I put this thing together. He didn't believe it.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I tried to get the Queensland cops to do a welfare check because I was really concerned for his mental health. They didn't, they failed to do that. Not saying they could have done anything, but possibly they could have. Um, then he spent fifty seven thousand dollars on gift cards. He was, he'd opened bank accounts. He was sending his pension, but he had, he had alcoholic, um, dementia. So they knew that he was unwell.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  And they just wore him down.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  And wore him to the point that he died last year. And, and that was heartbreaking because there were so many factors in this and, and so many people could have helped, that they didn't along the way. And they, the scams, and so I took his phone and his laptop and, so I kept talking to the scammers. And they were relentless. They were just continually at him.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  What sort of things were they coming at? Like you, you would push back a little bit or would you?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I, I, I took the role then as playing his sister. And I said that, you know, my brother was in hospital. He'd had something wrong with his throat, so he couldn't talk. So I would talk to him on the phone. They had African accents. Um, and what they were doing, they were, they were just saying, well, you know, you received this package before. You've paid us two hundred dollars, there's another package. And the packages, you know, money, here are the photos, it needs to come from FedEx, etc, etc. And they just were, the packages here, or one of them was, well, you know, I'm your wife, you know, you're meant to help me out. And, you know, it was just that manipulation.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Going at you.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And they were relentless. It just never stopped. So this, so this victim, he was just continually bombarded.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  On every, and he thought that he had a relationship with a male who was, you know, this person in Australia, and we were going to do this, and we were going to, you know, build this business and, you know, this. And then he had this female who claimed that he was his wife. And, you know, so.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  So had a couple.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Oh, they had scammers going, you know, had a few scammers going.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  That would have been like, once they've identified this bloke, we've got him here. I reckon we can get him again with another one.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  So they, you know, they take the topic of Michelle's this person role. So, and then we've got Steve's gonna play this role. And then we've got this person's gonna play this role. And we, and they just bombarded. So he, he, he lost around four hundred thousand. And that was a real hard because he had a health issue.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  And his ex-wife, who was beautiful, and his daughter, just beautiful people tried so hard. And we all tried hard to get him away from the scammers.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Telling him.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Telling him, yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  And what, what was, this fascinates me, like, it's when the facts are presented to them.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yes, no, he was so, he was so deeply invested. So there was, you know, and he had that little bit of, um, he, he was cautionary about a lot of things. And he had, he had a bit of, he was smart too. He had a bit of an I T background. So though the facts were black and white presented to him, there was that mistrust. He was believed, they had manipulated him so well that he believed them.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Over anything that we had to say.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Well, I suppose, again, it's human nature. Like, we've all had friends or we've been in relationships where you believe in the person even when the common sense is telling you, no, that's not, not right. Then you just choose to.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and look, and, and, you know, and I actually said, and, and I made it known when, when I put it together, I don't know you. I have no reason to not tell you the truth. This is my background. My mum's gone through, you know, something similar. So please understand that what I'm telling you is truthful. You are a victim of a scam. Please, I need you to really stop. And the, look, the scam has opened up credit cards in, in, in fake names, sent it to his address. He sent them off. He was sending parcels on behalf of them, sending parcels to Malaysia.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  The complexity of it, you'd be overwhelmed.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Huge. You know, you would need, and that's why, and, and this is the saddest part with this is that after it passed, you know, I reached out to a friend in New South Wales cops and I said to him, this is not your jam. I know that. But can you, can you get me into AFP? Just get me into somebody. So he then sent me to someone else who then said, no, we're not going to touch it. So then I reached out to someone else. And then the end result was ReportCyber, Report the Information, which I can't actually put all the information on ReportCyber because it's a 200-page brief. So how do you put everything in there? And then that then got sent to the local police station in Queensland, who the local detective would have looked at that and went,

• 32:12Speaker 01

  oh, that's out of our jurisdiction. I can't do anything here. So it's gone into the abyss. Now, my argument was, is there is information contained in that brief, whether it be the owner of the accounts for Apple, whether it be who opened up the Mule accounts, where they originate. Like, there is enough. There's phone numbers. There's IP addresses. There's enough that I think you could put part of a puzzle, put it on a whiteboard and say, let's just leave that there because we know that that puzzle piece is going to fit into something bigger, like an organised crime. That just sits at my, my home in a folder.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  It's, it's difficult because you, you know the way police work as I do and, yeah, the different jurisdictions. You put all that together, send it off to Interpol or, or make connections with overseas law enforcement. You're not going to get a lot of attention on it. And I would just imagine walking into a police station, if I, if I, I'd been scammed like that and I've seen it. Or you, you've come to me like, like your mum's.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  You, you walk in there and say, this is going on. You'd be virtually turned, turned around.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  And look, that's really interesting. So I've, um, and I haven't got a reply. So this, so I've just, um, proposed an initiative for New South Wales cops and actually for all cops, which is for that purpose that when they walk into the police station, the cops can say to them, well, he, here is something for you to look at, which talks about transnational organised crime, why we can't do anything about it at, at a local level. But here are, here are some initiatives that we want you to look at. You're not going to remember now, but I want you to take this book. I hear everything you're saying. We are interested. We'll take a bit of that information, but I need you now to report it onto these. And this is why, you know, this is transnational organised crime and this is what happens. So, and I think

• 34:04Speaker 01

  victims don't understand that. They need that something in their hand to actually read that.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  Good idea.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  I think it's a great idea. I'm just waiting for them to ring me and say, kindly come in and let's start this initiative. Because we're not, cops at, at a police station don't have time to, to, and not, and again.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  We're not being critical of the individuals.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  No, I'm not, absolutely. But they don't have time to sit down and go through the whole discussion point about transnational organised crime. They, you know, trying to explain about scam compounds and why it's not in our jurisdiction to try to, you know, um, investigate something that's happening in Myanmar.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  To, to investigate it, if they came in like your mum's stage, you'd have to have real time access to all the messages and respond to, not dissimilar to what, what you do. So.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  I, I think education is crucial then, isn't it?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  What, what you're talking about there, like a big, big, if we drummed it into everyone's, if you get, receive this on a dating app, red flag.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  And it, it's not that complicated really, is it?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Look, see, I don't think it's rocket science and I, and I really, I, I, I'm really struggling with when I, certainly when I. Send out proposals for face to face education. You know, I received crickets back and I I sort of think, well, I'm you you're not doing the right thing. Certainly in in in retirement villages.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  For for your your oldies that are sitting there, they need to be educated face to face. And when you do do face to face education, they love it because they get to ask you questions.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  And some of them may be the most simple questions, you know, I've got. Microsoft rang me the other day and they just wanted to have a look at my laptop, but I just couldn't do anything. So I'm like, all right, Fran, let's let's not go there, right? We, all right, ladies and gentlemen, this is what's happened to Fran. This is what we're going to learn from. We're not going to allow anyone remote access to your laptop.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Please understand, you know, it's simple things like that because old Fran thought that I just couldn't do it then. Can you ring me back later? Fran would have allowed them access, which they would have then got in.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  I know.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Destruction, destruction on on all levels.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  So it for me, this idea, and you know, I can talk about the, you know, we spend twenty million dollars on a ridiculous ad campaign for pumping up your tyres for fuel and all that, you know. Seriously, for the love of God.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  I I'm glad I found someone like minded on that. I laughed at that. Make sure you keep airing your tyres and we'll save fuel.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  We'll save fuel.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Let's let's.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  What a great initiative.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Let's not put anyone in your car and, you know, hey, how about give me twenty million dollars, people? And I'll go around and educate people on scams, you know, hello. You know, I mean, like, like, it's it's mind blowing, the stupidity of people.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  I I think with dating apps, like, if people are joining dating apps, if there was some sort of, these are the things you should look out for.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Well, they do have that.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Do they have that?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  They have that.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  But people just.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  I'm finding love, I don't care what's going on.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  And and look, and I suppose, a- again, it it, you know, you join a dating app and it'll say, you know, um, don't, don't give money to someone you haven't met and, you know, so they've got red flags there. A couple of things with that is the writing is always quite small.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  So if you're an older Australian, an older Australian, that that's your first problem. You're not going to be able to read that. So that's the first thing. And second of all, you're sort of just, you're flicking through. You're not really thinking about.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  No, you're so excited.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  I've just, I've actually made the decision.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  To get myself out there.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  And put myself online. So it's, it's more of the idea of understanding that you've done that. You've put yourself online. That's great.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  If this happens.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  You know, and I say to them, if you have not met for coffee in 10 days, you know, two, five days, two working weeks, forget the weekends, it's, it's a, it's a no go.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Well, see.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  It's a no go.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  To me, that is, well, I say common sense and that, that's been unfair to people that, oh yeah, but this is slightly different.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course, a dating app. And you, you brought the point up in part one, it's to have company meet.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  So if you're not meeting.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't do it.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Why are you looking for a companion if you're on an oil rig out in the middle of the Indian Ocean?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  That's right. And look, and they have these, you know, I, I had one of the, the scammers tell me that he was so worried about the pirates, you know, out in the ocean. I mean, I, I really laughed at that.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  But the sad part about that is that I know someone else received the same text message about the pirates. So I need your help for money. You know, we've got to go back to meet them for coffee, you know? And I will say to the scammers, let's meet for coffee.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Let's meet in Sydney. Let's meet at the cafe in George Street in Sydney. And there's always an excuse.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Can't meet there. Oh, look, I've just got to jump on a plane and I'm now going to Turkey to finalize this contract. So there'll always be a reason why they cannot meet. They'll say, absolutely. And then two days beforehand, there'll be a reason.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  There is, yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And for me, ding, that's your, that's your red flag. You know, and I know it's awful to say it's common sense because I say it's common sense. But I want you to go back. Why, why did you want to meet somebody?

• 39:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  You know, you really want to cuddle someone. You wanna cuddle. You haven't had a cuddle in twenty years. You want someone to give you a cuddle. Yeah, it's, it's that idea of going out for dinner or, you know, it's, it's, you don't change the plane posts.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Do you think what the world has gone so crazy at, at the moment and we spend so much time on our phones? It's almost like some relationships are just this electronic relationship. So that, that probably creates it, well, I haven't met, but we're texting every, uh, every hour. And that's fulfilling my need that, that's stopping me being lonely.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  And then, and look, and, and I, I doom scroll. It is the most, I've got this great book I'm reading and my phone. And sometimes I go, all right, and I'll, and I, and there's two hours gone. I go, well, there's like ten brain cells I've just lost because I've just doom scrolled for two hours. I've learnt nothing.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  We're, we're so used to that. So you're trying to teach people, don't use this phone as being your source of a relationship. That, that's not.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  In, in what we're, we're talking about here, but you can see how people are. If, if you've come up and said, well, have you met them? No, but I've, I've communicated.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  And they've sent me photos. So I'm talking to a scammer now that has, that has stolen Barry Dubois's photos, you know, from, right? So I, I've done a few with Barry Dubois. So I'm just allowing them to see how they're, you know, how he's progressing me from point A to point B. And so there is just photos after photos of Barry with his twins and Barry at this event and Barry. And, and, you know, poor old Baz. I mean, you know, his photo is, I don't know Barry personally, but Baz and Dr Chris Brown, my lord, their photos are just used all the time, right?

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Chris is out there, isn't he?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Oh, Chris is out there and bless him. And a couple of times I've, I've talked to, you know, fake Chris and fake Chris has got a, you know, African accent and I just, oh, whatever. So, you know, they, all these photos create the story.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  So I get it why you believe what is happening on your phone as a relationship. I get that because that story, yeah, hi, hi, my love, I'm at this, you know, event speaking. And Barry was at the event speaking, but it was in Sydney, you know, and he's not dating you. You know, and he's set the phone and my kids, this is their first day at school. Well, it was their first day at school, but that's not, you know, it's not Lewis, it's Barry.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  But, but if you, you buy into the, the, the first lie, it's easy to buy into the rest of, rest of them. Hey guys, it's Gary Jubelin here. Want to get more out of iCatch Killers? Then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every episode of iCatch Killers. Just search for iCatch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. What's the playbook for how far do they take it? Like, how long does it go on? Like?

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Could go years.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  And?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  They just keep going. It, it, it, it goes as long as you're prepared to give money.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  And, and so, so some of the victims will stay with it for, for years?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  They have no reason not to believe any different. And I, this is, I know is the challenge.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  When your mum's at home saying, well, I've got a relationship, it's, it's an online one, but we communicate all the time and.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Um, he's just had to stay over in Turkey a bit longer and, and once it, it goes for that length of time.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  The psychological impact is far more difficult to get them away.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Because you've got to look at, they are now so invested in that.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  They are in the relationship in their mind.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  They are. So, you know, I've got a lady in Western Australia and it, she, she's, she's taken a loan out. And, and, and it doesn't matter how much.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  I prove to her.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  She's not gonna listen.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  She's not, she, there is no way. This is just, so then it becomes a issue where family have to, you know. Get involved and start taking, you know, control over finances and that becomes then there's another family. You don't mean there's another issue because this can go on for such a long time and they lose so much money and people don't actually understand, and I'm not going to use the word clever, how manipulative scammers are.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  They use, words work.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  You know, we can say the most hurtful words and break somebody down.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Just with words.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  You know, it not with violence and that's what they use. They use the power of words.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  And, and, and making people feel guilty if they're not doing something.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  This poor person, he's going to, you know, be deported if I don't.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And that's their skill set. That is what, and we don't need to be educated now because we've got enough large learning models out there that'll help us say anything we need to say.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  You know, we can say anything.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  That docu, or the book that you said, the playbook.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  It's just answers to all the questions.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  And in that playbook, not only is it just your basic, it actually then will take you into a sexualized part, you know, how do we then take it to maybe a sextortion part? Where I can get naked photos and, and move into that part, you know? So, so though it's only 23 pages.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Um, I haven't got down to that, that sextortion part in, in my interactions with the scammers. But you can see that there is the love bombing, then the sexualized bombing.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  You know, this is, and then they will talk about how to, you know, talk in sexy language, but how to say certain things that you're reading it, it makes my skin crawl.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  But I can see how that works.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  But you're, you're, you're stepping away.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  And looking at it objectively, but if it was, oh, yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  But I can see how that works.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  And then they get, uh, get them to send the naked photo or whatever.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  And then they, they could even declare and compromise them and go, it's a scammer. We're going to post this on everyone.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  And now we're in another, another world of pain. You know, this is, you know, I mean, that's another. And discussion too about sex extortion, but that still works there for for adults as well.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  If they know that they're at a certain point where they're not going to get any more money.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  For example, let's try the sexy talk.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Evil, isn't it?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  It's evil.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  It's not, this is, this is evil. And this is, this is why this has to be that discussion. This is, this is pure evil.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  It it is because it's ongoing manipulation of someone. And and I would dare say that there's people whose lives have been destroyed by this. Not just financially, emotionally, psychologically.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  I mean, we know people have ended their life.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Because of the intense shame.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  That they have felt, but also society doesn't do a good job of it because we call people stupid, foolish, naive, dumb.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  You you're combining the shame with also losing the relationship.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  So, you know, we've all been down when you've lost a relationship.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  And we've all been shamed. You combine the two of them together and.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  It's it's it's the perfect storm.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  And that's the hardest part. This is, this is the perfect storm. And they said, look, you know, there are a lot of scams out there, but they talk about the romance side as being the most devastating because it has that, the emotional, you know, connection, the love part and the financial part, you know. And investment is just like the financial part.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Where this has these two components that are so intense.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  They come together, they combine and it's, it is, it's your perfect storm.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Sad for the victims as just as you're talking.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  It's awful.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  With people become aware or that might be a friend, a family member or whatever, and you suspect they're. How would you, well, first of all, with your business, people can reach out to you and you can come in and do the investigation. And then provide the facts. Prior to that, what would you suggest to people? Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Take it very steady, very calm.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  So don't have a, don't have a big intervention, have all the family there and go, look.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Please don't do that. Please. Look, you know, let's say, let's say granny's involved in something. Ask a question. Show interest, you know, Nan, tell me a bit about him. I'd really like to know. You know, show me some photos, you know, and just slowly show interest.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  So what you're trying to do is, I always say like, plant the seed yourself, you know, get them in there. Oh, okay, Nan, oh, oh, oh.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  Ideally, ideally it would be if they came back with the realisation and came, came back to you and said, I, I think I've been scammed.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  That gives them a bit of dignity.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Makes it a bit, and look, I had a gentleman in Tasmania.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Um, fifty nine, great, good, down to earth Aussie man.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Like lovely man, truck driver and everything. And he reached out to me and he just said, I just don't know. I think this is real. I really do think it's real, but can you just do, right? So of course I came back to him and said, mate, it's not.

• 48:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  And these are the reasons why. He was devastated. He'd taken out a loan, he'd used finance out of savings, you know, all this sort of stuff. And he just said, are you sure? And he kept ringing me and, and it went over for weeks, going, you know, and I said, yeah, I'm sure. And I said, but I want you to promise me one thing. You're, you're a truckie. I said, I don't want you to hurt yourself.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  You need to ring me on this time. And he did, you know, and he gave me guarantees and we worked through some processes and everything. Then I said to him, I now need you to go and get some help with your thing. And he reached out to some mates.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  And he burst into tears. And one mate was really good. The other mate said, well, you're a fool.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  You know, so, so then he said, you know, I've got a mate who, who supports me and I've got another mate who doesn't support me. So then we've got to be a bit more kinder because it's so intense. And he's, you know, he rang me a couple of weeks ago. He said, I'm, I'm doing better. I'm now so ashamed that I've lost so much money.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  To what I thought was a real person.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  And that's now what he has to deal with that as well. He's still, you know, he's got his one mate that's helping him through. Um, but I was really worried for him and, and you know, we've talked through that.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And he was, and he was so. He was so real. He was so, he was so, and I, and I hate the word vulnerable, but he, he was so, he was so honest with the way he felt to me. And I went, mate, you, you're gonna be okay. You, you, you will be fine. You've just got to work through it, you know, please understand. And then I explained to him about, you know, the organised crime part of all. So you understand this is just not Joe sitting in a cafe.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Well, I, I suppose that helps to a degree that you haven't been, uh, yeah, conned by just one, one person. You are a victim of organised crime.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  And, and on the issue of organised crime, we're talking off mic about, um, uh, recent things in the media where, uh, people are talking about what goes on in these compounds, where these scammers are. Just tell us what you know, know about that because I find that frightening that this is what's happening in the compounds that are generating these scams.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  So a victim will, um, apply for a job, for example. So there, there's a known victim. He was a, uh, gentleman from Pakistan. He applied for an I T position

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  in Thailand. So he rocked up there. The person who was pretending to be part of the company greeted him, took his passport, then drove him down to Myanmar, to the border down Thailand. And he was taken to a scam compound. And, and he, he talks about, if you weren't meeting your quotas, you're, you're beaten, you're electrocuted. Um, and we talked about, you know, there's photos of just people that are just covered in bruises and welts and, you know, they have a quota to meet and they are held under armed guard that is run by Chinese organised crime or organised crime. And

• 51:35Speaker 01

  and each level within those compounds will be for something, whether it be an investment, business email compromise, romance scam. So that's your job and you'll be working sixteen, seventeen hour days.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  They're virtually prisoners.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  They are.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Human trafficking, isn't it?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  You cannot leave. And if you do leave. You could be killed.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  End of story. There's, there's no, this is, this is not fairy dust anymore. This is happening in real time as we speak now. We have got, and I think the U N have talked about three hundred thousand victims of human trafficking.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  But these are people who have gone to apply for what they thought was a legitimate job.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  And have then been taken prisoner and driven to these compounds. And once one compound is shut down, another one is, is built, is created. Because we're talking about corrupt governments, corrupt police. We're talking about very wealthy organised crime. You know, and I said to someone the other day, I mean, we, we could be saying that the, one of the organised crime leaders could be buying homes in Sydney Harbour for sixteen, sixty million dollars. I mean, I don't know that. I'm not part of that world. But that's what we're talking about. This money is used to pump up the drug trade, the, you know, the crimes, uh, the, the firearms trade. I don't know. Nuclear weapons.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  Well, it could, it could be terrorism. You don't know. It's organised crime.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Could be anything. I mean, it's, it's, it's there and it's, it's, you know, trillions.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  But, and, and that's what, you know, I, I think when victims look and think, how stupid am I? That's what they're up against, isn't it?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  That's what your seventy eight year old mother is competing against organised crime on an international network stage.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  That's right. And even if we look at, if we, if we look at the Yahoo boys in Nigeria, for example. So they're the known, you know, group that talks about romance, who, who, who are very good and, and, you know, at what they do. I'm not upsetting them. I shouldn't say they're very good, but they are good at what they do. Um, they're still organised. You know, I, I have a scammer on the books now and he was part of the Yahoo. And he, he talks about they, they train every day. They learn from each other, whether it be they post stuff on TikTok, whether they share documents, whether they write something in.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  This worked. I had a situation like that. I said this.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Don't do this. This is what we, you know.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  So they're, they're constantly evolving.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  Have, have you seen in the times that you're looking that they're changing the playbook?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  No, not, no, not really. I think what I've noticed now is the use of technology is against us more. So I would have said to you 12 months ago, if you're doing a video call, they won't be able to move around. Now they're actually utilizing A I.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Or apps that allows them to use their body more, to put hands over their face. Cause normally I would say, don't do this, don't put your hand over your face because it'll pixelate and it won't work. That's all changing now. So then that reinforces that I'm a real person.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  So they will find one app and say, this is working really well.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  And they will train and then they will video themselves doing it. Then they'll put it out for the next scammer to learn from that. So I just watch that and go, that's exactly. So I try to teach people and I say to people, this is what they're learning. So don't think that just because you're talking to somebody on a video chat that they're real, they're not. With the use of A I, which again is a whole, me too.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  It's just too confusing, isn't it?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  But can't we just go back to face to face? What is wrong with people? Why are you happy to sit in your home and talk to somebody on a phone?

• 55:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is weird. If people wanna reach out there, how, how do they?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Look, you can just go onto my website, which is tofaceinvestigations.au and everything's there. My mobile number's there. Send me an email, go onto all my socia's, I'm, you know, I'm there, I'm out there, I'm out everywhere. My, my big fat head is out there. If you tie Kylee Dennis up, you'll be able to figure me out.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Well, we're gonna have to wrap it up, but.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  A bit of a Debbie Downer, really. Sorry. I've got nothing to, a positive to end on.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  No, well, the positive thing is that I, yeah, any former police officer, working police officer, and I can tell you we're a working police officer. I thank for the service to the, uh, the community. Um, for the drinkers, I thank you for running a hotel.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  But wow, what you, you're doing now, I think is, is so important and, and you're making, making a difference and it's a area that you've changed my thinking. I'm never gonna. Laugh when I, I, I see someone, how could they be so stupid?

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  And just look at the impact and the, yeah, the manipulation

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Of vulnerable people.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  If I, if I learnt something in police, I don't like crooks preying on vulnerable people.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  So, yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Keep up the good work.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  Keep talking.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  I'll keep talking.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  I'm sure you will. Okay, thanks for coming on.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Cheers.