Inside the mind of a serial killer: Ian Cherrington Pt. 1

As a teenager, Ian Cherrington became fascinated by the psychology of serial killers - a fascination that would shape his entire career. He began as a forensic psychologist studying the minds of serial killers before making an unconventional leap into frontline policing as a detective in the UK. After years investigating homicides and linking crimes across the country, Ian transitioned into counter-terrorism and lone actor threat assessment, positioning himself at the cutting edge of one of modern policing's most pressing challenges. In Part 1 of his conversation with Gary Jubelin on I Catch Killers, Ian recounts the harrowing case of Robert Black, a paedophile and child killer whose crimes became the catalyst for Ian's decision to join the police. Ian also unpacks the critical psychological differences between serial killers and lone actors. Questions for Gary: [email protected] Get in touch with the show by joining our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/844896725918656, and visiting us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=en or Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcast?lang=en. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  What is the difference between a serial killer and a lone actor? Today, I'm joined by Ian Cherrington. Ian is a forensic psychologist who became a detective and moved into counter-terrorism and lone actor threat assessment. If anyone's qualified to talk about acts of mass violence, it's him. Ian Cherrington, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Thank you Gary for having me.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Well, I'm excited about the conversation we're going to have. You've got some vast experience in a whole range of things. You've got the academic take on crime and also you worked as a police officer for a very long time over in the UK.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right, yeah. So I'm slightly unusual in that sense that I was a detective for many years, but also before that I was a psychologist and academic as well, so have that combination, yeah.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Well, it's a different way of looking at crime. Speaking of crime, I look today that lone actors, mass killings, extreme ideology, that seems to be the concern of law enforcement and the major, major concern. I look back at my career in homicide and we had the gangland killings, we had occasionally serial killings, we looked at that, that was the focus. Domestic, domestic violence, but am I reading the landscape correctly, like these mass killings, lone actors are a realistic threat to law enforcement in this day and age?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I started my career, I worked almost exclusively on serial killer cases, things like that, as a behavioural analyst. So I, I thought a lot about that and I was aware of kind of these issues then. But certainly in recent years, the lone actor style mass attack, sometimes it's terrorism, sometimes it's not, but that sort of attack is far more prevalent today. And in my opinion, it's a growing problem and not a problem that's particularly like just focused on one country. It's an international issue. Certainly, yeah, that's the way I would see it.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Before we get into the detail, because I want to talk about those indicators and all that, tell us a bit about your background, because I find it fascinating, a psychologist that became a policeman. I've seen it the other way around a few times, but tell us about your journey.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when I was, when I was a kid, I sort of loved Agatha Christie, you know, Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes, all that stuff. So I was sort of obsessed with the whole thing before, you know, when I was quite young. And as I got older, I got into the psychology of it and I started reading books about serial killers, which is kind of worrying, isn't it, in a way, but as a 15 year old. But I read a book.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  You would have been one of the indicators that we'd have.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Probably back then, yeah. So I've sort of turned it around. But I, I read a book called Alone with the Devil, which is a book by an American psychiatrist. His name is Ronald Markman. It's a book from the eighties, so I don't even know if you can get it anymore. But he talked a lot about interviewing Charles Manson's followers.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  And it was sort of in my head, like, how did? How did he manage to convince those people to get involved in a murder and all this sort of stuff? And so I just found it fascinating, the book. And from there, I I basically went to university, studied psychology. And then from there, I did a master's in forensic psychology. So I I got involved in uh understanding criminals, particularly murders and sexual offences. Yeah. And most of the class that I was in that course with went on to work in prisons or clinical psychology. Um whereas I always had this thing kind of inner sense of justice or I was interested, but I wanted to actually catch them, if that makes sense. I wanted to be on that side, that side, which which I guess is just individual.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Um. So I applied for a job at a national agency um in the UK. Um. And this is about twenty five years ago now. And I got the job and and it was just being set up, that that unit, it was a it was a kind of unit designed to study serial sex offenders and stranger murderers across the UK. So we built a big database of of these things, um all the behaviours that you might see in a particular murder case. And what I'd done just before that was I um done my dissertation on murder. So I looked specifically at i- i- a crime scene. If someone's attacked in a murder and their their face is attacked. Yeah. Does that indicate whether or not the suspect knew their victim?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  And I was allowed to go through a series of case files from a police force and examine this and study this and test it. Um. And and ultimately, what what the dissertation found was that there was two types of situations. One was if someone was killed and then the person wanted to cover up the crime, you know, body disposal, all that sort of thing. They sometimes would damage the face or or the teeth, all that kind of thing you might see in organised crime. So so they're disguising the identity of the victim. But the other side of it was when individuals knew the person, often they would attack someone's face because the face is like that who they are, if that makes sense, like the window to your soul, it's who you.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  And they're trying to obliterate that.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is a kind of grim dissertation to do, but but interesting for me at the time. So I took that with me and I went on to become a behavioural analyst, is what it's called. So I was a senior analyst at this unit and I did that for six or seven years. So and what that unit's doing is really linking crimes. So what we were interested in was serial murders and sex offences. So we were trying to see if we can link crimes across the country. There's a famous serial killer in the UK called Peter Sutcliffe.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  The Yorkshire Ripper. Have you heard of him? Yeah. So in the sort of late seventies, he attacked, killed thirteen women. He was a truck driver and he drove all over the north of England. And what they realised back then, you'd have murder investigations run on bits of paper. There's no computers in the way that we have now, no DNA. So you're not, you're not linking crimes in the way that we would be able to now. So the unit was kind of set up for the purpose of trying to improve that because in the UK, there's forty three different police forces. So this is the idea of trying to talk to them all, you know.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  And those investigations operating in silos and not passing on information. And we, we had the same situation here, but I won't say mistakes because we just didn't understand at that point in time, the linkage that you could make between the investigations, even between different state police, but local area commands and, you know, crime that occur and it'd be investigated in isolation. That type of study, I, I found it fascinating and that what you're talking about is not dissimilar to a journey I went on, looking as, as a homicide detective, looking at those type of, type of links between the offences. And I also find it fascinating what can be told from a crime scene, the way the body's

• 7:50Speaker 00

  disposed of and, and different things that. You pick up from operational experience as a homicide detective, but I like the academic research that's done that clearly you were involved in that saw the supports of theories, whereas a detective can walk in and go, I think this has happened, but there's no, it's just more of an instinct, but the academic research that in the field that you were doing was adding the science to it.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, indeed. So if you imagine, having now been a detective, you can't have done it the other way around, like you say, but you start to realise that actually as a detective, a lot of kind of what makes your career, if you like, is the cases you work, you know. In that unit, I was exposed to more cases, like understanding them, reading them than an average detective would ever be. So the value comes partly from the research and the analysis, but also from seeing so many of them. Because in one police force in the UK, you don't have many serial murders or many stranger rapes and things like that. So we would be sent into the inquiry team quite early on in the investigation. We'd go to

• 8:57Speaker 01

  the crime scene, we'd do all of those kinds of things, meet with the SIO, and then we'd give them advice and write a report, but we're also giving them suggestions of investigations, investigative suggestions they might want to follow because we've seen it in another case. So it's kind of useful to bring that knowledge. And obviously, the purpose is also to try and link crime. So try and bring in other offences or suspects that they may not have considered that live in other parts of the country. Having done it for a number of years, what I found was that it really worked the best if you caught someone. So take Peter Sutcliffe as an example, you could then look back over their crimes and consider

• 9:39Speaker 01

  not just their behaviour, the sort of behaviours that they would show in their crime, which is kind of this idea of an MO, you know, is the signature of how they behave, but also where they lived, where they worked, what their movements were over many years. And you tends to give you like then like anchor points that you can draw in other crimes from. And there's lots of examples where that's been quite successful. But with sort of linkage behaviour, which isn't too dissimilar to what I'm interested in now. Is what you're looking at is you're putting yourself in the mind of that person, which is a kind of a dark approach, but it's.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, the necessary approach. I do understand it.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you look at a series of, say, a series of murders, often people start at a younger age, they get older over the years if they get away with it long enough. But also they start to learn behaviours from previous incidents because, say, it's gone wrong for them or they've been caught once for a minor offence. So they might be more careful next time. Or they might decide to choose to target someone in a different location because it's easier for them to get away with it. So you start to try and work that out always in your mind. It's not like you can link crimes, just say, well, they're exactly the same because they never are. And one of the things that used to strike me about it was when it's planned,

• 11:07Speaker 01

  you know, the idea of planning a murder attack or murder of this kind. Often there are similarities between them, but a lot of these offenders are people with jobs, with everyday lives, many of them had families. So they live a normal routine. So often their offending would hang off the routine. But sometimes they would just basically be given an opportunity by chance.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  So then suddenly they they commit a crime that's quite different to the rest of the others. So these are all sorts of things that you used to have to think about.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  It's complicated. The choice of victims is always an interesting, who the victims are and that Peter Sutcliffe, one, did he have a particular style of victim that he would target?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he was known to target sex workers initially. He was unusual in the sense that he's very violent and very immediate violence, often using weapons. He used to take a hammer round with him and attack victims like that. As the years went on and it was more difficult to catch him, he became this idea that the FBI use, which is this organised versus disorganised kind of patterns of serial killers. He started off quite organised and then as it went on, he became more disorganised. So he became more reckless. He stopped targeting sex workers and started to attack other women. But he was able to use his job as a means with which to kind of come in and out of a particular community.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  And move into another community very easily. And I suppose when you look at a crime like that in the seventies, as I said, you've got no DNA, you've got, you've got no CCTV really, you've, you've got nothing like that at all.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Completely different environment.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so in some senses, um, I mean, we didn't exist then either. We, we went back through those kinds of crimes and other serial killers crimes. But in some senses, the behaviours, but in those days, the behaviours all you really got to, to link crimes together. Nowadays, you, you, a lot of DNA science makes it possible to do that much easier.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Well, you can, with DNA that's left you, instead of speculating that these crimes are linked, you can, you can lock it in. Yeah, we've had that with serial sex offenders where the DNA has been left at the scene. The other thing I find interesting, something that I think from a investigative point of view, quite often we miss, but it's interesting that you raise it. The lifestyle of the offender, sometimes that pattern that you, you're trying to work out what the pattern's all about, but it, it's quite often linked to their home environment or their employment. We had a rapist on the North Shore that was operating and he would only strike on Tuesdays and Thursday nights. And it was confusing at

• 13:52Speaker 00

  first, what's this, what's this about? But as it eventually played out and he was arrested, charged and convicted with the offences, it was to do with nights that he was away from home because he was supposedly doing a tech course or an evening course. So he could leave his home without any suspicion being raised, but that's why Tuesdays and Thursdays. But it's a complex thing, but I, I was fortunate in my career, um, that worked very closely with Dr Sarah Yule, forensic psychologist in, in New South Wales Police. And I found it fascinating getting that different, uh, different perspective from the psychological perspective. You have the, uh, the police and we look at things a certain

• 14:33Speaker 00

  way. And then having someone come in and she would quite often, I'd be, we'd have briefing after briefings, sit down with her and she'd explain something. And the moment she said it, I think, yes, okay, that's what we need. I embrace working with Sarah. I love working with Sarah. There were some police that had a bit of a resistance to it. Oh, what's, what, what are these quacks going to bring into, uh? Did you experience that at all? Was there any resistance with the expertise that you brought into criminal investigation? Cause as you know, as now having worked as a cop, we can be fairly set in our ways.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's been an interesting journey. I smiled slightly then because I'm sort of remembering my, my younger self. Um, but yeah, uh, we would be sent into major investigations, you know, policing back then, um, you're kind of going into often quite a male dominated environment as well and uh, sometimes slightly macho environment. And yeah, you, you're a kind of twenty something psychologist with, with an opinion. I was quite opinionated, I think.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  I'm smiling there. I can just.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can imagine me, can't you? You don't, who's that? But you know, what's he doing here sort of thing? So every now and again, I'd say something valuable.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  And then you'd get the attention of an S I O, you know, you, you would have that. And it, and often it was about building trust. Um, but you know, you, you've been a murder S I O. I mean, you, you don't have much time to think. You're huge pressures, lots to think about all at once. And so as a psychologist or a behavioral analyst, kind of pointing out a few things is one of the things you need to think about, but not necessarily always the priority. So it was difficult early days to get, to get heard. And over time, we just sort of built a relationship. So what you found was if you worked with the same S I O, then you tended to have a kind of better relationship.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  And I was like, they can understand the value you can add to the investigation.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and often people often think about crime analysis as intelligence analysis, which is a different thing. It's much more to do with linking intelligence and even sometimes doing charts and, and kind of showing crime patterns and things like that. That's not really what we were doing. We were. Doing behavioural linkage, so we were in a different space, but I was assigned my career, I was assigned the north of England, in Scotland, as a senior analyst, so I spent a lot of time up there, even though I lived in the south of England, and spent time with some of the Scottish SIOs in Glasgow, at Edinburgh, and then in the north of England too. So you kind of build a relationship to the point then that they might ring you up and say, what do you think

• 17:05Speaker 01

  of this behaviour was often the questions we get because it was a bit odd, or so odd behaviours are sometimes useful because underneath there's some reason for them, but you often see them in series, you know, links and patterns. It was interesting, but all I'd say is that becoming an SIO years later, I'm always very nice to analysts, as you can imagine, because I because I understand it, and I kind of see their plight, if you like, you know.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Look, it is a team in any homicide investigation or major investigation, that's a team effort from the bottom person to the top person, it's all about contributing, but I'm just reflecting on some of the things that Sarah helped me with, I was on a serial killing case, and the victims, four year old girl, sixteen year old girl and sixteen year old boy. And it was hard to articulate because we were pushing this matter through court and a whole range of things, and hard to articulate because people going, well, you say, because I was arguing that these crimes are linked, and it would be put back, well, the victims, one's

• 18:12Speaker 00

  a four year old girl, one's a sixteen year old girl, sixteen year old boy. And I'd try to articulate that, yeah, they were linked, and there was very good reasons why these crimes were linked, and the tendency and coincidence evidence that were related, the way the bodies were disposed of. But Sarah, when I was creating documents for the court and doing affidavits and different things, identified that this person was motivated, was a sexual motivation, and he is prepared to kill to get sexual satisfaction.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  He wasn't driven by, the sex wasn't aimed at the victims, but it was, he was prepared to kill those victims to satisfy his sexual urges. And all of a sudden, it was a lightbulb moment, and I'd been working on the case for years, trying to argue and justify why I'm saying these crimes are linked. And just little things like that, I felt were beneficial. Another thing that I would use the psychologist for in policing, I'd like to get your view on this, because I think you've done some study on this as well, about police interviews. Whether it's a crucial witness or the suspect, and you know, break it down in the basis, or the most basic form, carrot or a stick, what way should I approach the interview? I found that beneficial before I sat down in the interview room sometimes.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Is that something that you were involved in as well?

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't personally advise around that, but we did give them a sense of what sort of person they might be talking to, you know, about. Years later, when I'm doing the police interviews myself, and I've been in SIO where we've had psychologists and we've had people guiding us in terms of the approach to interviews. And I'm a big advocate of the whole piece model and the rapport side of things. So back in the day, even when I started, I mean, when I was a police officer, you know, you were sort of thrown in and you ask your questions a little bit kind of staccato, don't you, and looking at a piece of paper and all this. And I sort of came with a different view because of my background, I guess.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  So I used to keep it very relaxed and try and, it's not befriending people, you know, you know what they've done, but it's just about kind of sometimes preparing beforehand so they don't dislike you, if you like, immediately. And sometimes as an SIO, we had interview teams that interviewed suspects and I would...

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Make a decision to pull someone out of that.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Because the suspect clearly doesn't like their face or their, the way they come across, whatever it is, they might remind them of someone, but they didn't have the rapport. Um, and I just think rapport, if you're going to get anywhere in a police interview, um, I think rapport's important. So I always choose to try and make it conversational.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Obviously in the back of your head, you've got the kind of points you want to get across and the evidence that you want to try and prove, but I found no real benefits of trying to take someone head on or morally kind of dominate them, if you like, because of what they've done.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  I, I always felt in the interview room, at its most simplest form, not to show judgment, not to sit there and if I'm interviewing you, just sort of rolling my eyes if you talk about something and not be judgmental. If anyone's going to, um, open up to you, you can't sit there being judgmental with your arms crossed and, uh, giving them attitude.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  It's about having a conversation and, and letting them, because one thing I've found in the, in the interview room is that people often say, how do you get a confession out of someone? Quite often, and we're not talking perhaps serial killers or maybe serial killers, but quite often people want to unburden themselves. They carry this guilt of a crime.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  And if, if I'm honest, what I'm exploiting is letting them unburden the pressure of carrying this secret that's been troubling them for a long time. And that often pays dividends in the interview room.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, like there's lots of examples of, uh, serial killers particularly where they haven't, they've never admitted their crimes.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  You know, so in some ways they're, they're not going to do it in the first few days to a police officer.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  They haven't done it their whole life. You know, even, even those that have died haven't admitted anything, if that makes sense. So, um, it's always worth, worth trying to, as you say, to kind of get someone to unburden themselves. But I, I was used to. Kind of try and see it as a relationship of sorts in that moment. Because if you think about what we talked about a bit earlier, the serial killer sort of mindset.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  A lot of that's about power and dominance and things anyway. They don't want to be caught, they don't, they want to ultimately come out again. They're not necessarily going to listen to you if you start challenging them on everything or look down on them. But yeah, interviewing, I used to love interviewing just because it was one of those things where I suppose to a point, you're trying, you're trying to get them to, as you say, unburden themselves, admit the crime. And sometimes that would happen and sometimes completely to your own surprise. I remember once interviewing a guy for a series of kind of knife point robberies. Didn't speak at all. And then right at the end, he just, he just kind of cracked and started crying and apologised and all that sort of, you know.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  So it can happen is even when they say no comment repeatedly, which is often the case.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  If the interviewer is good enough to, to kind of get across their points and try and connect with them. Connecting with someone that's not even talking back to you is quite difficult.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  But if they're able to do that, then it can be really effective.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  How did you find your way from being the psychologist and the nerdy kid that comes into the strike force room or the incident room and explains what you've learnt at uni to becoming a police officer? Because that's a big career change for you.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was quite well established. So it was a big jump. And I went back to being a police, you know, Bobby on the beat, as they call it in London. So, so that was the step I made. So.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  So just to make this, so I fully understand that. So you're there, you're working on major crimes, you're having input to it, but you've decided you wanted a career in law enforcement? Like as in being a sworn, sworn member?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, what it, what it was, I worked on a case as a guy called Robert Black, who's a child killer from the UK in the eighties. One of the most awful people really, and it was a difficult case, but he, he killed three young girls. Every period of about five years. But as I said earlier, there was no DNA then, there was nothing like that. He he drove a van, he used to deliver posters and things. He came from Scotland and he'd abduct the children in the borders of Scotland or north of England. And then after he murdered them, he took them to sort of the Midlands. So it's about three hundred miles or so away. Dumped their bodies and and it went on for years and he wasn't caught. So I picked it up after he was caught. He was caught in nineteen ninety.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  But the way he was caught, so he was he he he was um in the process of abducting another young girl in Scotland. And someone saw him um snatch the girl from the street, put her in the van, and he took down the registration number. It always gives me chills to talk about this or think about it, but this guy knew a local police officer, so he told him. Um and so they looked out for this van and strangely it drove straight back past. Um they saw the registration number, so the police officer stopped the van and then they opened the back of the van and um the young girl. I think she was six years old, was in a sleeping bag tied up in the van. She was still alive. But the police officer was her dad, just by chance. Yeah, so it's extraordinary story. Um and he.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  He was caught for that and then taken to a trial and it took about four years to get him to to trial for that offence, another offence, and then the three that he'd murdered. And what amazed me about it was that back in those days, if you went to a petrol station, you you would like sign, wouldn't you, with a pen, you know, to pay for something. But the petrol companies would keep all those receipts. They'd send them away to huge kind of warehouses. So nothing was digital then.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And the police went through something like five hundred thousand petrol receipts in this investigation over years. To work out where Robert Black was, the times of all these murders. And just the sheer kind of effort.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Magnitude.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this is detectives, right?

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  And I was just so impressed by it. And I was just sort of thinking, you know, wow, this is incredible. Um. And then later, years later, I worked on a similar case. It was in Ireland that was linked to that that series. And he was, he was um actually convicted of that about twenty years later. And again, the same thing. They went through so much information and it took, it took so many years. But they didn't give up. And there was something in that that just kind of lit me up really to wanna, to wanna join the police. And um I had this, I was older, so I had this strange feeling of like, do I really wanna do this, you know, go back to uniform and be in the tough streets of London and all this sort of thing? And most of my classmates were like eighteen. They looked about twelve, you know.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  I can imagine.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was, I was sort of like completely out of, almost out of my depth.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  You have to fight people as well and, you know, all that stuff. And it was um, obviously, they, they, you know, they fight you, but you have to fight back sometimes. But um I remember, I remember a couple of times in the classes, in, in the training centre.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Sort of answering questions with this sort of, I know about serial murder and, you know.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  And my classmates did not, were not impressed.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  At, at all. So it was a very rude awakening. It was like, no.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  You've got to conform.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  You've got to go to this shoplifting.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  You know, so it was a, it was a tough transition. But it was something about that case was a big part of it. Just, I wanted to be a detective and I was kind of willing to, to take the step. I just wanted to be closer to, I guess, the action, the result.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  You know, the, the justice part of it, you know, really wanted to.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  I think from a, a career point of view, being, being a detective and on the, on big cases, I, I, I find it fascinating. And it's so stimulating and that's not dismissing the, the horrific nature of the crimes that you're investigating. But to get on an investigation and, and work it through from start to finish, it, it can be a very rewarding career. How long did it take you to get back into the field as a detective and, and start leading investigations?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  In the UK, you do two years probation, they call it. Yeah, so I guess it's similar here. But yeah, so two years in uniform, which was a huge grounding, I have to say, like, you know, it's um. It's a really important thing and it it makes you understand the kind of people and what you're dealing with, all that kind of stuff. So I joined the CID, which I think they call the C I B here, but um so it's general investigation detectives. So I was a kind of a constable um working in London. So I became an acting detective sergeant fairly quickly. Worked some cases doing that. And then I moved police forces. I moved to a county force, which is like a country force, if you like. Again, another sort of shock really from from London to that.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Um weirdly, I was busier because I think you get more crimes given to you as a detective, but the the place, the area is safer largely than a city, you know, so. But there I I took promotion, so I became a D I. And that's when I started to to sort of S I O things, I think. And I was on a proactive team. So we targeted robberies and burglars and um kind of this idea of child sexual exploitation, um human trafficking, things like that. So at that point, I then started to run those cases. And then what what I found was like all this stuff I'd learnt before, which I'd had to almost bury really.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  To to to be kind of authentic in that, you know.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  You concentrate on the the general, the beat policing and

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  do that. Yeah, I can understand that all your academic studies wouldn't have come in a great deal of assistance at that stage.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  I used to get told off because I would interview for too long, so hopefully I won't go on, but um or I would, you know, I would overthink like the the crime, you know, the

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Sorry, I shouldn't be laughing.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  No, it's understandable.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  It is understandable and I can imagine it, but yeah, it would be hard for you.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, because i- if you sort of you're trying to analyse a a someone who's, I don't know, stealing from a shop. And you're trying to understand why they do it and all this sort of stuff. And then you've got thirty crimes to investigate, you know, and your sergeant's sort of hitting you around the head going, can you please just

• 30:55Speaker 00

  And you're still in the interview room.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, can you please just close that one? It was a bit like that. So they I I'm luckily for me, I had good, good supervisors who sort of knocked it out of me.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  But then as I kind of grew back up into a D I and then later a detective chief inspector, I I was able to draw back on that knowledge and experience. So. It kind of went full circle, um, because the more serious the crime you're involved in them, as you said earlier, the more helpful it is to have an understanding of why they do it.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  You know, and and how to um, how to apply that. So, and I kind of often leaned on people like I was when I was younger, brought them in because it just helped me and it it kept me kind of in touch with that. So. Uh, but yeah, an interesting, an interesting journey. I was really glad not to have completely left it behind.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  How did your interest get into lone actors and and ma- mass killings? What uh, what drew you into uh, interest in that field?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  So I was working um, as a detective inspector in child protection.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Um, so I had, I run a unit which um, investigated um, child abuse, child sexual sexual exploitation, which is this kind of um, it's a, it's a more modern term, but it's kind of bringing um, normally young teenage girls into kind of prostitution, sex work, stuff like that. And it's a pretty difficult, difficult crime to get your head around. But often what what was sort of involved in those cases was this, this idea of vulnerability and people being drawn into it. And older men normally kind of offering money or or opportunity or things like that to kind of um, kind of get their own sexual kind of gratification, I suppose. And

• 32:38Speaker 01

  at the time, what was happening in in sort of the world, the world of extremism and terrorism was um, young people getting drawn into that. And what you could see was it was, it's kind of a similar process in some ways, this idea of radicalisation, but the process is really taking vulnerable people, often young people, and sort of drawing them into crime. And it it's almost comparable as well to grooming and gangs.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  You know, often you get, you get people and and what you sort of see is the young people tend to have these kind of shattered lives, abuse perhaps at home or difficulties at home. And and then they they're trying to find a place for themselves and they get drawn in to to the wrong crowd.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  They're trying to find their tribe.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Quite often.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  This is it. And it's a powerful thing. So there was sort of a just direct uh, translation across into that. And I saw a job in counter-terrorism, but it was counter extremism stuff initially. So it was looking at um, how to sort of um, reduce that radicalisation and help vulnerable, mostly children, but sometimes adults. How to steer them out of it, how to support and help them. That was my first kind of. Step into that. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of psychology in that, the, the process. And so it interested me, that, that idea of it. So I did that for a few years. And then because I was a detective and I had the experience, applied for another job then as an S I O. So that, an S I O in, in, in that world means that you're, you're effectively,

• 34:00Speaker 01

  some of your work is kind of working with people that haven't done anything, but you're, you're monitoring them effectively. But uh, quite a lot of it is, is around investigating crimes or near, near kind of crimes. So this is where mass attacks became on the radar. Um, so I was involved, I can't talk like too far into those just because, because they're recent and they're, they're sensitive. But these are crimes that um involve individuals that have that intention to carry out um mass, mass attacks. Sometimes the attack itself is quite kind of not always clear cut. It's terrorism or not. There's often a debate about that and that sort of rages on in the background.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  But I was, I was able to work on some of those cases. And when you do that, you, you get very involved in trying to understand their journey to that. And as a detective, it's a slightly different thing to a psychologist in a sense, and you, you'd know this very well. Is that when you're looking at someone's background that's carried out a, a murder or, or a crime like that, you're interested in what evidence i- i- is that going to provide to the court? You know, that's your kind of almost your focus, isn't it? But I, I suppose I started to think about along with that is what, why have they done this? How have they got into this situation? Became aware of of sort of that. And then I, I got involved in um inquests, which is where

• 35:25Speaker 01

  you take, take these matters to a court and the idea is not so much about convicting someone, but it's about why did this happen? How can we stop it happen in the future? So. I ended up doing all this sort of deep dive stuff and getting involved in trying to understand what was happening. And then an opportunity came to to work as like the national lead for behaviour, if you like. So applying forensic psychology and all the behavioural work that I'd done before to this this issue. And so I did that for a number of years. So I sort of, perhaps a convoluted journey, but it was good for me to be able to kind of bring that back in and apply it slightly differently and

• 36:10Speaker 01

  be able to think about that thing. But really, I'm still in a position now even where it's about understanding, understanding why people do something in order to help you either stop it or investigate it, you know, that's the idea.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  I I want to talk about your experience, but before we do, I just touch on the psychology of, say, a serial killer can, as compared to what motivates or what's the psychology behind someone that commits a violent offence in a lone act of mass killing?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So I I kind of look, look at it not so much in terms of what happens, you know. So obviously, people are killed in these incidents either way, but look at it in terms of their intent, what what's their purpose. And in a simple term, a serial killer is often almost exclusively interested in some sort of sexual gratification. So whether or not they actually use some sort of sexual behaviour in the killing itself, or whether the the act of killing is is some kind of gratification for them, either way, it's very normally a sexual crime. That's the truth of it. With lone actors, mass attacks, most of them, although there's different types, most of them focus on this idea of

• 37:25Speaker 01

  going out with a blaze of glory. So it's this idea of it's their last kind of hurrah, it's their last moment. Because the likelihood is they're either going to be killed afterwards, either by the law enforcement, or they're going to be imprisoned. And so for them, it's a final act. A serial killer by its nature, because it's a sexual crime, they don't want to be caught. They want to carry on offending.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Whereas with these lone actor or these mass attacks, there's often a notoriety attached to it. So it's this idea of being remembered, being seen as special somehow. And sometimes that's in death and sometimes that's in life and they're in prison. But either way, it's much more to do with that. And so you get quite a different profile generally between those two types of people. There is a sort of a blurring now, which I've seen, which is this idea of nihilistic violent extremism, which is a term that's come from America in the last year or so. And these are people that are killing, doing these acts for the sake of it. Because they have no real kind of attachment to society and morality.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  So they just want to do it for the sake of it. And so in some senses, there, I can see some links between this idea of serial killers doing it for the sake of it.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Um, but that's a kind of special niche, if you like, of this problem. There's lots of different types, so hopefully.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Terminology, you said?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Um, is that something that America are starting or they're starting to see in the, in the US or?

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you see cases around the world, but certainly these are often young people. They're online and there's a subculture of young people online that talk about this thing. And the idea is it's around violence for violence sake. So what you don't see so much now, in those cases particularly, is an ideology. Or let's say they, they focus on a specific ideology. So they may have lots of different interests in ideologies, but ultimately they're not doing it for a cause. They're doing it for the sake of it. They're doing it in order to achieve some notoriety, but also just to, to kind of.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Cause destruction to society, that there's no kind of political, religious, ideological cause around it. Um. And it's, it's a worrying trend.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  So it's a strange trend and, and a lot of it is online, um, driven online by groups um, that, that communicate on the dark web or sometimes mainstream online too. So this, this sort of issue, because I've had this career where I've sort of followed the, these sort of mass murders or serial killings, I can almost see, see the, the, how it's evolved over time, um, the last twenty, twenty-five years. Um. So it's, it's worrying, but it's kind of interesting for me to, to understand it. Um. Because what, what I'm interested in is how can we prevent these, these kinds of acts? How can we stop them?

• 40:29Speaker 00

  It's concerning, isn't it? And you've had an, another layer there, but with lone actors, mass killings, there's invariably not an escape plan. Like, they think this is their final statement, as, as you said earlier, they're, they're ma- making a statement. That makes it, uh, difficult for policing. Like, by the time police homicide investigation traditionally is a reactive investigation, the crimes occurred and you, you in- investigate the crime. The big problem here, or, or the, the test of law enforcement, now it's proactive investigation to prevent these crimes. By the time those crimes have happened, the, the catastrophic results from the crimes. So we've got to shift our focus from being

• 41:12Speaker 00

  reactive in investigating major crime to being proactive. Is that a fair, fair assessment?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think there's a few things going on. I mean, obviously, if, if, if the suspect dies, um, in the process, which often happens, then there's a kind of difficulty for families of victims, that there's no justice, right? There's this, there's this kind of, yeah, no answers as well, which is a very difficult thing. Um. And so there's this this kind of concern for law enforcement around how do we stop these things before they happen as opposed to, of course, you can investigate them and of course, those that survive, you can take to court, et cetera. But is there a way that we can actually prevent these before they happen, which is is a shift and it's not always possible. So it's not a case of like, it's easy to do this. It's very difficult

• 42:00Speaker 01

  to to spot these things. But certainly, whenever I've looked back at cases that have happened and gone into the detail about that journey of the of the suspect before they carried out the attack, particularly in the weeks before, you can see signs, indicators present in in almost all cases. And that's what sort of interests me. And from a law enforcement point of view, obviously, that's something that they should be tuned into, of course. But I guess for me and my experience, often when you see the indicators, it's almost before law enforcement are involved. It's tracking it back slightly earlier than that because these kinds of behaviours are the sorts of things that you would see if you

• 42:45Speaker 01

  know that person day to day. You'd see a change because you know what they're like normally.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  So it's not leaving a pattern of criminal offences that have come to the attention of law enforcement. There's subtle shifts or or changes that might not necessarily be brought to the attention of law enforcement.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And often they're not brought to the attention of law enforcement because people either don't notice them, they're not tuned in to what's going on, or they've become normal, these kinds of behaviours, because often these people have extreme views, or they behave in extreme, sometimes violent ways in their life, anyway. But also, what they're not seeing is the opportunity to report. So they might worry about reporting it to law enforcement or to some of the support agencies that you now see around the world because they don't want to get them in trouble. They're concerned about what the outcome would be for their friend, loved one, all that kind of stuff. And I think human nature, often, people don't like to tell on other people.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  And and people who are the closest, you're going to try to protect them and not, yeah, bring the attention. But, well, it's a shifting landscape, isn't it? And perhaps we've all got to change the way we think and and view things.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Hey guys, it's Gary Jubelin here. Want to get more out of iCatch Killers? Then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify, where you can watch every episode of iCatch Killers. Just search for iCatch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. Well, here in your background, and it's fascinating and full credit to you for carving the career out in the way that you have. But I think it sets you up very well to talk about what we're talking about here, about violent ideation. And what is it, first of all? What is the thing behind these people, whether they're lone actors or people that commit

• 44:48Speaker 00

  mass killings? Is it grievance? Is it, what's the grievance about? What's the tipping point about? Tell us, just give us an overview of the type of people that commit these crimes.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So violent ideation, I'll try and cover some of the labels because it's difficult for people and they are, they're often used interchangeably or they're changed every couple of years. So I try and make it sound as what it really is. But violent ideation, something slightly different. It might, it might happen in a mass attack, but it might not. But really, that's the idea of having violent thoughts, intrusive thoughts. So people think about either harming themselves or other people. And it's something that's often linked to, not, you know, it's rare, but it can be linked to some mental health conditions, some serious mental health conditions, schizophrenia being one of them, but there's others.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  So violent ideation isn't necessarily in, always in these mass attack cases.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  What you do get, which is more common, is this idea of grievance. And so if we take this idea of ideology, which is ideological violence, which is the sort of classic, carrying out an act of a mass attack or an act of violence for a cause, religious, political, racial, all those sorts of things. And these are things that people might be familiar with. A grievance is, is something that is probably a better term to use, I would say nowadays, because often these cases have ideology.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And that's part of it, but often they don't. And sometimes they're just all mixed in together. It's really quite confusing. You can't, you can't quite work out what they really believe. The reason I quite like the idea of a grievance, it's called grievance based violence or grievance fueled violence. Reason I like it is because it gets, it gets away a little bit from the beliefs and it focuses more on the psychology. So the, the idea that someone has a grievance is the idea that they've been wronged. Or they've been kind of affronted or, and so they're angry about that. And in a very simple sense, if someone, someone has a personal grievance. It might be that they've been fired from their job, right? I might keep this quite simple. So they've got a grievance against their boss or maybe the company.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  And they might decide, oh, right, I'm so angry about that. I'm going to take action against that, you know, and then they'll, they'll carry on an attack. And you, you, you see things like that. You might see cases where it's symbolic. So maybe the, the organisation has done something to their family or something like that, or them. And they decide to attack the building that, that represents that organisation, something like that. And these are sort of personal grievances. But that grievance could be against society. You know, if they blame society or the government or the police or any individual person could be a celebrity. They blame them for their life, which is kind of, they've got a bad life. They're, they're isolated, they're marginalised.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  So they want that kind of, it's like a revenge almost. And they want, and they want that because they want their power back. They want, they want to feel like they're powerful and they, they can overcome it. And that's the sort of psychology behind it. What we also see is this idea of where people adopt a particular cause. Say a religious or political cause, which you see obviously in, in some of these cases. They take it on as a personal grievance internally. So they start, they start to actually absorb that. If they're watching the TV and they see their particular group or whoever they associate with, and they don't have to be a member, they might just, you know, support them.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  And they see them coming to harm, or they, they, they see like bad things playing out, maybe. They're going to feel that personally. So the process of a grievance is the same. So they, they're still, they're still um having that, that feeling of anger, that feeling of like, how dare you? I'm gonna get justice. It's just the fact that they're getting it for the group.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  They're defending the group, if that makes sense.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it does. You, you, you're breaking, uh, there's a grievance. What initiated the grievance can be from a personal grievance, or an aspect with a group, the, an ideology that they don't believe in, something political. But the overriding thing is that it's a grievance that they've got.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the, the important thing is that um unlike the sort of serial killer thing, which is often driven by sort of personal sexual gratification. This is driven by a kind of um a sense of wanting to, to do something important, to do something meaningful for that group or for them to get their power back. But also, it's often in these cases, you see this idea of being remembered, so notoriety. So this idea of um they're effectively trying to be an important person. But they're coming from a low place, right? They're coming from a kind of low self-worth, low self-esteem place. And by doing this, they're kind of getting some ground back and they're be, they're able to do that. Um. And so if we go just on to the idea

• 49:54Speaker 01

  of a tipping point. So what you see in these cases i- is often um a moment where they go from someone who's angry and might, might say stuff and might have little incidents where they, they tend to um argue with people, or they might even get into a fight or do something maybe less violent, but still violent.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Um. And then something happens that kind of pushes them to, to go all the way. Um. And that that kind of comes in two ways. The first would be like an internal tipping point. So most of that relates to things that go wrong in their life. Like, we all have it, don't we? Sort of someone dies, divorce, um, lose your job, um, they might, they might have an issue with immigration, or they might um be arrested, something goes wrong. And in that point, they're much more volatile, and they've got less to lose. So tipping point is almost this idea of nothing to lose.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  The other sort of tipping point you get i- is an external one. So I I call them flashpoints, but it's it's this this sort of thing, like, like you see on watching TV and there's a war on, which, you know, is current at the moment. Someone's watching it, they're getting angry about that. And it's kind of, it it's got them so angry. They already have this this grievance or this beliefs.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  And they're sitting at home and they've seen a uh a shell go into a school, or something as dramatic as that, and that's it.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so case cases can be tipped like that. So it means that someone goes from thinking about it, talking about it, to actually, oh, right, I'm gonna do something about this. That's what I'm gonna do. Um. And in those cases, it's quite interesting nowadays, particularly because back in the day, we used to watch TV and you'd see the images that you you'd get on TV, right? You that was it. A few channels to choose from. Now, people can go online and they can watch footage from someone's phone in the war zone, right? Or or it, you know, it might it might be a not a war zone, it might be another attack. So it might be another attacks occurred somewhere, um, and that might inspire them to to act too. Do you see what I mean?

• 52:03Speaker 00

  I I do. And they can play it on repeat before they can watch it continuously and they can fester on it. I can see how it changes the uh changes the dynamics completely.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  And there's a there's a phenomenon that occurs where um people get angry about those things, but often also watch a lot of it because it it decentrises them to it as well. Because often these people, some of them are violent naturally, but often they're not. They've never done anything like this. It's a big deal um for them. So and so that's that's the way you I see it. And the these things um can happen over years, or they can happen over weeks, you know, we get cases of extreme timing where. People have festered on these subjects for a long time and then something just snaps them to move.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  That's given an understanding of of the type of person that we're dealing with here. Some of the indicators that I've I've made some notes here at um the common sites, I suppose. Because the whole thing about law enforcement here is we want to prevent these or or identify these before they carry out the acts. Um. Expressions of violent ideation, threatening behaviour, fascination with violence, social withdrawal. Um. These are the type of things that are are indicators if they behave. Mood changes, I'm I'm looking through the whole list of them and I find it fascinating. Uh. Preoccupation with personal grievances, substance abuse, preparation for violence, changes in routine, unsolved conflict or stresses.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  So what you were describing, these are all the things, these are um. That's the person that carries out these acts. These are the type of signposts that or or signs that that they could be uh going down that path. Is that correct?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like every every case is different and some of the things you list there are present. Sometimes they're not, so it's different combinations. The the easiest way to sort of see it is to look at it from, say, the idea that if if someone wakes up one day.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And they decide to carry out an attack, leading up to that, what what might you see? And the reason I mention the grieving grievance and the tipping point first is because they're often there. The grievance particularly is is almost always there. So you're going to get people who have views that aren't necessarily going to do this. Um. And you're also going to have people that have those views, have a terrible time in their life, something happens.

• 54:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  And they still don't do it. But my my view has always been you should you should still consider that. If if that's someone you're already concerned about, um and then they have a major life event or something happens, you know, in the world or even locally. That that's quite significant, then those are the moments that you should kind of check in with them and focus in on them. And so if someone, you know, a member of the public's got a friend or family or something like that, then they should be concerned around those things because this is the idea of flashpoints. So you can't predict exactly who's going to go ahead and do this. But those moments are of concern. But then what you move into, once they've decided, you move into this preparation phase. And there's two parts to that, really. One is, one is this sort of physical preparation.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  So it's, it's almost always a planned crime, this. I mean, there are, there are examples of where it's very spontaneous. But, but most of them, there is an element of planning, often rudimentary, because often the methods that are used are nowadays are kind of, they might use a knife or a car or something kind of like that. But there is this planning phase and so some of them will start to kind of look at where they're going to do it. They're going to pick somewhere to do it. They might look at kind of how many people are there? How can they get away with it? They might think about how important is that site? Is that going to get the attention that I want by doing this? You know, which often what this is also about.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And then they're going to have to acquire a weapon of some sort, if that's the way they're going to do it. So all those things take time and planning. Some of it's kind of obvious. But if you, if you're sort of, if you know that person and they're very extreme and then they start to kind of

• 56:10Speaker 01

  either talk about, because some do just talk about it openly. And that's obviously a big flag, you know, a big red flag. The other thing that happens is that sometimes with this planning phase, they tend to kind of go off the radar. You know, they become very withdrawn suddenly. They become secretive, they, they sort of disappear and they, and they won't sort of tell anyone what they're up to.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  So these are the, I, I call them indicators. I'm not sure if that's the right terminology, but type of indicators that people should look, look out for. When, yeah, if they're concerned about someone going down this, this pathway.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  We're going to take a break now. When we get back, because I know in our discussions that we've had, a big thing is about how we can minimise the risk associated with people like this. So let's talk more in depth about that, the type of, dig even deeper into the indicators, ways of preventing this. And I think we're both in agreeance, we'll never be able to stop it completely.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  It's not just law enforcement, it's everyone's invested in trying to reduce these type of criminal acts. So we'll be back shortly for part two.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:19Speaker 00

  Cheers.