How to spot someone planning a mass attack: Ian Cherrington Pt. 2

What are the steps a lone actor takes when preparing a violent attack? Can they be stopped? In Part 2 of forensic psychologist turned detective Ian Cherrington’s chat with Gary Jubelin on I Catch Killers, Ian unpacks warning signs and ‘leakage’ that suggest planning is underway. Ian shares practical ways to support people showing early extremist views, and explains how lone actors differ from the ‘sovereign citizen’ movement. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operate. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic psychologist and former UK cop Ian Cherrington. In part one, Ian explained the indicators that can suggest a lone actor is planning an act of mass violence. In part two, we talk about how you can intervene before an attack. This is an important discussion.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  Ian Cherrington, welcome back. Part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  We left part one talking about lone actors and mass killings and the type of things, the type of, call it indicators, red flags, warning signs that potentially we can look out for to try and prevent these attacks because this form of policing is different from the majority of policing and it's very proactive. If someone's got an ideology, when does that ideology, when do they start to act on it? When's that tipping point? We finished off in part two talking about some of those indicators. Is there any other things that you think we should discuss before we talk about how, what we should do to try and prevent these?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so just to continue on the, we call them indicators or warning signs. Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about grievance, which is almost like a staple thing that you would expect in most cases. There's some cases where mental health is the issue or dominates the issue. But even some of those, there's still elements of grievance, but some, some not. So it's just a kind of caveat that slightly, but we talked about tipping points, flashpoints. Those are things to be concerned about and what I'd say about that is... If you already know someone has a major grievance and talking about kind of taking action and then there's a major event in their life or around the world, then that's

• 2:32Speaker 01

  when you should be concerned, whether you know them as a friend, family, or whether you're part of an agency, it's the same difference because once you get those things, it tends to accelerate. That's in the cases that we know about. We talked a little bit about preparation. So this is the idea that someone has to plan this and they might do it over a week or longer, sort of more meticulously. But often it's only a few days and you might get strange behaviours and reconnaissance. But one of the things I'd flag is that this is real world and online. So often you also get preparation online or comments online. So it might be, someone might be in a forum and someone's talking about doing something.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  And what I'm interested in, I suppose, is that if you saw that as a member of the public, you might think, oh, that's weird and not do anything about it. Whereas what I'm trying to say is that for those cases where that's happened, it's an opportunity missed, really. You know, for someone to say, there's this person online and they're talking about doing something. Obviously, sometimes people have bravado, don't they? They just say stuff.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Well, I was gonna add there, like what, yeah, I say it, you'll probably said it, oh, that person deserves such and such, or flippant comments. How do you distinguish between or differentiate between a comment that where people are saying is just passing offline to something that might be a little bit more sinister?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I think if they say explicitly that they're going to carry out violence or an attack, and it does, it does happen more than you would think. Because it's better safe than sorry in those situations. Often they just say it. People just say things, particularly online where it's this idea of keyboard warrior, people, people just say things that they don't mean. But it happens enough that I would say if you saw that, you should be concerned. And obviously, that person online might not be who they say they are. They might have a tag or a name that isn't them. But even so, I think it's concerning. And we'll talk a little bit about why. So the other, the other side of this is as you get quite close

• 4:39Speaker 01

  to carrying out an attack, a person like this, they might start mentally preparing. And this kind of comes in different ways, but. Unlike a, in a good example is a serial killer where perhaps the whole purpose of what they're doing is to stay secret and get away with it and carry on doing it. This, as I said at the start, is like a blaze of glory. It's their final moments, but they know that they're gonna either die or go to prison. You know, they don't expect to survive one way or the other, or continue their life as it is, if they're successful in what they're planning. And what's, what's apparent is that that starts to dawn on them. The magnitude of it, it starts to affect them. And sometimes you'll see them behaving erratically.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  So they might at those stages, late stages, start to kind of reach out to friends, family or agencies. They might, they might start to behave very strange. Cases I've seen of people who are pacing up and down, they're very stressed and no one understands why. Or they might become very withdrawn and secretive and defensive and all those sorts of things. Obviously, these behaviours in isolation are necessarily that meaningful, but if you put it all together, that's when you start to see it. And then the last part of that is particularly people, so if we talk about Islamist cases where there's this idea of martyrdom, so this idea of jihad or martyrdom where you, the belief that they have is that they're going to heaven if they carry out this, this action

• 6:04Speaker 01

  or attack, then they're kind of facing a transition into a different space, right?

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  But, but a lot of people are just scared of dying anyway. I mean, even if they're gonna do this, they're still scared.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  But they've also got to say goodbye, they've got to kind of leave people they care about, all their things. So you might see this, these sorts of behaviours where people are acting like they're leaving, or acting like they're moving to another country.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Tidying up loose ends.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, this is sort of indicators or warning signs. And then the last thing that you notice around the late stages is this idea of leakage behaviour. So this is a, an academic term that's been used for many years, and it can be direct or indirect. So someone might actually tell someone that they're gonna do it. Very often, it's not like I'm gonna do it next week on this day at this place, because they want to do it, they don't want anyone to stop them. But they might say, I'm going to do something about it, watch the news, something subtle. But you know, and sometimes you get indirect behaviour. So you get kind of

• 7:12Speaker 01

  almost like a run through of the attack or references to other attacks. Look what they did there, that, you know, I'd like, I'd like to do that, that kind of, you know.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Fixation on keep bringing up one, the previous attack or something like that.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's an attachment to that or a kind of interest. And then this last part, which, which is around this idea of being remembered. So if you think about, you know, the, the profile of a serial killer, that they want to get away with it as long as possible.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Sometimes when they're caught, they go to prison. But some of them do, you know, that's, that's been seen before. They do kind of enjoy the

• 7:50Speaker 00

  No, the wrong.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Notoriety. Well, in this case, they know they're not really going to get away with it in a sense that, you know, in some senses, and they may lose their lives.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  And they don't, they don't want to be forgotten as if no one will ever know why they did it, but also who they are. And that's an important factor because that means that they, they need to tell someone and, and sometimes you see it. You know, people would be aware of this, but sometimes you see it written down. They do some video online or they write down something or that. But often it's telling people close to them or, or people online why. And you don't often, well, you, you sometimes see it after the, the event. But sometimes there's an opportunity for people to kind of put the flag up. And those sorts of behaviours are normally very close to the end, if you like, if they're going to go ahead.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  So it's really important to sort of think about why they might be saying those things. It might seem strange in the moment. But if you, if you consider everything I've said, you have all those ingredients in one, one place, then that's when, you know, people should come forward and say, this is what's happening.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  Okay. What you've described there, it's a broad range of behaviours. But the, in essence, what you're saying is a change of, change of behaviour. Something, and the people that would notice that, they're the people that are close to them to start with. So there, there's an onus on people, people, people close.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  That change of behaviour, I've seen that investigating suicides where people have taken their own life quite often during the investigation, there's that change of behaviour where they're making peace with people that they've had falling outs with before, or there's a calmness that comes over them.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  So I suppose what you're saying here, if we're going to combat, yeah, try to prevent these type of crimes, everyone's got a role to play. People that are seeing someone that they might be close with that's changing their behaviours. And I take on board what you're saying also about threats of violence if people are saying, because the world has changed. You might have got away with that thirty years ago, I'm going to kill this bloke, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But we're all in a society that we're a little bit more cautious about that. So that is sort of stepping outside the norm, isn't it? If you're talking about violence, you're going to inflict on someone.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  There's a truth to it, that people do, you know, working in the police, people make threats, say things that they never are going to do or never do anything about. They do, they do that, that is a thing. But these are, these are so huge, the devastation, the impact they have on people. In the context I've given, I think if someone says that they're intending to do an attack like this, personally, I think every single one of those comments should be reported because it might not be every time that they really meant it. But at the end of the day, that's.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  That's in their, in their head.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and often the ones that are successful, it's a strange word to use, but they, they often do that. And it's, and you can see it, you can see it in the cases afterwards, you know, but it's too late then, right? It's, it's happened and lots of people have been killed. So if, if someone is saying that they intend to do something of this nature, personally, I think that's, that's the biggest warning sign for me. It, it might not be true every time, but it, it only needs to be true once, right?

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You've worked at coronial investigations and also the counter-terrorism.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Have you seen situations play out where when you're looking back that the people close to the person that's carried out the crime have come forward and said, look, these were, these were the type of things is there, is there reluctance for people to come forward with the information that they, they know prior to the event?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it does, it does happen, yes. To be fair, sometimes it's subtle and they wouldn't necessarily understand what I'm talking about.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  They wouldn't piece that together. Perhaps someone who listened to this might because they've, they're connecting it, but often families, they, they, they talk about strange behaviour or friends or, which is why I emphasised in this idea that if it's blatant, if they're just saying they're going to do something, then that is very worrying because they're outwardly saying their intentions and that happens. And so, but the subtle behaviour is very difficult, you know, to spot and it's a classic thing of hindsight, you know, you can almost make it fit, right, with a, a comment can seem like it means something and all this. And until you look at it afterwards, they've actually done it, the significance isn't there.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  But there's definitely a concern people have about reporting and I think it's obviously sometimes it's loyalty and not wanting to get their friends or family into trouble. It's a concern about what the government or police will do or the agencies or charities that work with people like this, what, what they, what might happen to them. The reason I feel so strongly about it is because I've, I've been on both sides, like in a sense. So I've, I've supported people and tried to help them out of this process, but also I've seen the devastation and has a big effect on someone, you know, including police, detectives, you know, it's, I look at it and my desire to kind of look at the prevention

• 13:03Speaker 01

  of it comes from having seen the, the awful devastation that these things create. Huge mass cases like this devastate numbers and numbers of families, but they put fear into the community, but they also ruin. The suspect's life and their family's life too, you know, there's no winners in this, you know, it's not.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's possibly a way that the families need to look at it, but like the concern about coming forward.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  But is that concern unfounded? Like if if someone reported, especially and I see, yeah, we're talking teenagers and and young people. That parents would be beside themselves, watching the way that their son or daughter is behaving and the things that are happening. And I can understand the reluctance to, oh, he's been talking about blowing up such and such or doing that, going to the police. How would the police, in your opinion, how how would the police handle that if that information was provided, uh, provided to them?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  It really depends what what stage it's at, if you like. So if it's if it's kind of gone very far, they're likely to be arrested, you know, because they do start committing offences if they've planned something and they're, you know, they've seriously planned it. Earlier on in that, there's an opportunity to steer them out of it. Um, and there are sort of various programmes around the world that support people to do that. And one of the things that I was involved in was this idea of protective factors. So putting in things that improve their lives, you know, not not trying to debate their ideology or grievance, you know, which is so deep seated at that point, it often makes it very difficult to get through to them. But often behind all of this

• 14:49Speaker 01

  is a sense of kind of hopelessness about their own lives. That's why they've connected to these subjects or these groups or and so protective factors are kind of trying to address some of that. And it's not to kind of make out like they're necessarily victims or, you know, but it's in reality, this sort of thing, it's a social issue, you know, it comes from from social issues. That's what I believe.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And one of the most powerful ways to kind of actually stop someone and and steer them away before they ruin their life and other people's lives is to kind of get involved with them and and treat them with some support and protective factors to try and improve situations. It might be their living situation, it might be their family situation, you know, abuse, things like that, but it might it might be simply a sense of helplessness and. When I talk about this stuff, it, it, the lines aren't clear, like, I'm emphasizing children because children can get involved.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  You know, like, the easiest way I can explain it is if people would have seen that show Adolescence, you know, on, on TV, which is very powerful, but it's this idea of parents having a child capable of something that you would never imagine. But also, when that happens, people start to sense that it's like something to do with them, it's their fault, you see?

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  And these are very complicated things, and I think that they, they often mean that, that people won't step forward, because particularly parents and families, because they're so concerned, they can't quite believe it themselves, you know, that this person's capable of it. But obviously, if, if someone's got much further down the line, even if they're arrested, the whole thing is, is averted, which is huge. And, and so, if they, if they went all the way, it's worse. You know, this, this is a difficult subject, but it, it's the truth, you know, it's much worse to not intervene if you have a chance to.

• 16:42Speaker 00

  So I take on board what you're saying, and I, I understand that it's something that should be, should be encouraged, the intervention. We talk about, yeah, of young males, because quite often this is the way, way it plays out. Breaking it down into terrorist organisations where they see young males potentially as vulnerable, they're looking for whatever connection their life is lacking, they're looking for their tribe. Are these the type of people that get exploited? And if I just put it in the category of people that hold extreme ideologies, are these the type of people that they exploit to carry out the, carry out their work?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is a range, and the modern evolution of this is generally, young people are, are being brought into this subject online, and they're doing it by themselves.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Um, if you go back some years, it's not that it doesn't happen anymore, but you do get these situations where adults, if you like, would groom or radicalise a young person and get them to do their bidding or do their, do their work for them. Over the years, I think what's happened is it's a slight shift where people can be encouraged or even self-radicalise themselves. Even cases now where

• 18:01Speaker 01

  AI gets involved or in the middle of this, you know, so cases where certain AI models will interact with an attacker.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  And can support their ideology.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, like how to plan it as well, you know, so it's a slightly frightening sort of evolution. But yes, there's cases too still and probably historically more so, but where individuals are groomed, they're vulnerable and they're easily radicalised. But what I would say, even though that person may have been drawn into it, behind it is often still these issues around grievances and tipping points. You still have these problems in their lives. A lot of these cases aren't purely about the belief in the cause.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  You know, underneath it is a personal crisis or a personal kind of view of themselves. And so that's why with younger people, they're almost easy targets.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Because they'll pick someone who's vulnerable, who's got a bad life and give them meaning and purpose and belonging and all this sort of thing. So a very dark kind of approach, really.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  But they're very easy to exploit, a young person.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'll select someone that's easy to exploit, yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  I picked up on the fact that you said it's not the way to come at them headfirst and say, no, your views are wrong, your ideology is wrong and all that. That can make them more withdrawn or add to their beliefs. What is the way to approach it if you've got someone? It doesn't have to be a young member of your family, it could be anyone. What if someone's expressing these extreme views? How, what's the best way to deal with it on a personal level?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, it's worth emphasising the fact that because it's, because it's

• 19:57Speaker 01

  a grievance, it's so extreme. If you think someone's willing to go all the way to do an attack.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  It has to be at the high end of extreme, you know. And so often these people will hold these views, they've built them up either, you know, online or through other people or by themselves or through other people. Trying to debate with them would be quite difficult. It's this idea, isn't it, of like, if you've got a view, if someone argues against it, you become more entrenched in your view.

• 20:27Speaker 00

  Dig in.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and modern society now is very polarised, isn't it? It's kind of all or nothing. Post-COVID, this idea that opinions are facts. And so it's very difficult actually to do that.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Sorry, I like that. Post-COVID, opinions are facts.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  But you're right.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  But what I'm getting at, I suppose, is that by trying to debate with them, you're almost entrenching them further.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  They're finding more ways to defend their view. So it can, it can work. I've seen it work. I've seen that sort of approach work. It very much depends on the type of person that's working with them. But often it's not a good way to start because they're coming from a place, you know, up here.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  There are different places. You need to find common ground. And often families, friends might be too close to the problem, you know? It's not, they're not necessarily the right person. Where it works the best, I've seen it quite a lot, is people that used to be extremists as kids. Then they grow up perhaps and then they, they start to do work with younger people. They give up their views and they give up all this life, this difficult life of extremist views. And then they start to coach other young kids to give back and to try and pull them out of it. And that kind of works with a sort of, I think they're able to reach them on a respect level. As in they've, they've been down the path.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  And this is the way out of that path. Does that make sense?

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it does. And there's a lot of merit for people, and I, I see this with offenders that go back into juvenile detention centres and say, this is a path. They've got their attention because they can relate to them. We were where you were at one stage and this is what we're saying about the life. So I can see the benefits there. What role does the media play in trying to reduce it now? When you were saying in the preparation stage where people might go down, get down that path, they're looking for notoriety, they're looking at high impact on what they're, what they're about to do.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  I'm a, I'm a big believer in, I, I always have concerns where people become, yeah, there's a tragedy. Um, and the offender's name is linked to that tragedy and not the victims. Um, I know the media are a little bit more cautious on it. People are a little bit more cautious of not even giving the identity of these, these people. And, uh, yeah, the thirst for information from the public will be, they'll, someone will always find out the name of the person responsible. But is there a role in the media, what we can control the media now, because social media is, yeah, a life until itself, of making sure they don't get put up there on a pedestal or get the notoriety that they're looking for? Do you think that could make a difference?

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, I guess what's worth saying from my perspective is that it, it is a big part of it, particularly the modern cases, this evolution, where, where it seems to be a big factor, particularly for people who are younger, is, is the notoriety to be remembered. Some, some of this nihilistic sort of violence I mentioned, individuals sort of interested in that are interested in, in being kind of famous within their own world.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Online. And so when they, when they decide to do something, they pick, they pick locations that are gonna be, gonna make the front page, aren't they? Or they're gonna be iconic and, and remembered and uh, strike fear and all this sort of thing. That's what they're thinking about, you know, generally they're, they're doing that. But also they wanna come out the other end of it and, and kind of almost be better than the last one, which is a very difficult thing. But that is, that is a, I'm not saying that's their entire motivation, but that is a, a factor. As I said before, that kind of comes from us almost like a part of how they feel about themselves, low, low self-worth. They wanna kind of be more than that, you know? And that is a bit of a difficult one, because obviously

• 24:27Speaker 01

  the media have to report these things, you know, it's really important, but there's lots of families of, uh, victims of these attacks that don't want to ever hear the suspect's name again. And, and I, I, I don't, I don't blame them. I understand that completely. And I'd feel the same if it was my loved one, you know?

• 24:45Speaker 00

  Most definitely.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  So I think for the media, it's probably just being tuned in to the fact that actually. How they adjust their reporting, I don't, I don't entirely know, but what I would say is that some of these guys, this is exactly what they want.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Is, is, is huge media coverage for as long as possible. Um, and that's the kind of, if you think about it from that side, it is quite a dark, dark thing. It's, it's a very fine balance, isn't it, between giving them kind of exposure versus, versus reporting what the public should know, you know. I think if you go over years, hearing the name again, I try my hardest not to mention people's names if I can.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's impossible not to, but go back to serial killers that are in prison for a long time, they used to be on the front of the tabloids in the UK a lot. Um, even years, years afterwards.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  And still cry for it.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you, you think about the family there, they, they're just, they may, they never forget, obviously.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  But they, maybe their life is okay and they're living it. And then they see the picture of their, their loved one's killer on the front of the paper in the street, you know. That's what, that's what I would say is important to remember. Every time, every time it's repeated, it kind of can really hurt.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  I asked you the other day, and I, I thought it was interesting just bringing clarity to it, because here we've had, um, people with sovereign citizen ideology, that have committed acts of violence, um, and it's normally at, well, it has been at, uh, law enforcement. Are they in the same category as, um, lone actors or, uh, there's something that you said that, uh, I'd, I'd like to just explore because I thought it was interesting that aspect that you divided that up from a lone actor. Sovereign citizens, they want to be left alone, that's when people try to, uh, come to them.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think these things evolve, you know, um, and it is a lot to do with circumstance. Um, I remember when I was a detective, a younger detective, and I, I was involved in a, like a manhunt for, for what would be described as sovereign citizens. So, long story short, um, he was wanted for a minor offence, they tried to arrest him and he, he pointed a gun at one of the officers.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  But then he disappeared. Um, so it was kind of days of, of looking for him and we, we managed to find him and I was down at, um, this site, middle of nowhere. And they had the firearms team on foot and we were the arrest team. We're just detectives kind of minding our own business really. We ended up in the middle of it, like between the two, which was a bit of a, probably one of the scariest moments I've.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Not the right place to be.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  No, and I'll never forget that, like that sense of, yeah, but so that was, that was interesting. But unlike Australia, that guy and others in the UK live amongst the community, if you like.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Because the UK is different geography. It's more compact. But my sense of it from that was that he and others tend to not want to follow any rule of law.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  They don't believe in the government. Often it's useful language, but often that comes from a grievance from the past, some run in or issue that they might have had. But they've become more embedded into the view that, so when it comes to any challenges from, from any legal challenges, authority challenges like that, they react in a certain way. Here you've had some cases, the geography is different. People can almost live off, live off grig. It's such a huge country. And so in some ways they can end up doing that without ever seeing anyone for, for months or years.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  There are cases in America where sovereign citizens have planned, planned sort of what you describe lone actor attacks, things like that. So it has happened in America. UK and here, it, it appears to be a reaction to a challenge.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  So, so the authority challenges them and then they react violently. But these things evolve. So it is a concerning thing. They tend to be older men, you know, rather than young people generally. As I say, the grievance is still there, but it's not necessarily all about lone actors where I described this idea of going out in a blaze of glory. It, it might happen. Yes, it might evolve, but often it's, it's at this idea of a flash point where the challenge comes in.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  That someone's poking them.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I mean, you know, this is unavoidable.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  But their reaction to it is extreme, isn't it? So, so in many ways the processes are there. They just reordered a little bit, but it's um, but when I talk about tipping points and flashpoints with lone actors. That's where the crossover kind of sits because it might be a challenge, but it might also be something that's happened to them in their life. Which has made them deteriorate and become more volatile, or it might be something that they're watching play out on TV or, do you see what I mean?

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  That much of it is still there, but I personally have not seen cases in great detail where they're sort of planning. The sort of lone act or attack type thing, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen or can't evolve that way.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  But it's obviously, uh, but that's why I think it's worth categorizing it slightly differently.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  No, that makes sense. I was interested when we spoke the other day, you clarified, because I wasn't clear on on the differences, but I think you've explained it well. You've got extensive experience in policing, you've got your academic background and your ongoing studies and your research. What do you think police, and I'm talking general, as in police organizations, need to focus on to minimize the risks of lone actors and mass attacks?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Um, I think generally it's about understanding this, what I'm describing, I think is the best, best way. Um, it's about, for me, over, over the years, I've sort of realized that you, the best way to reach people, because I've trained people in this. You know, in law enforcement and wider than that, is to tune people in. There's a lot of information goes around, you know, and particularly if you're a police officer, say you're a police constable.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  You know, you've got a million things to worry about. What I'm interested in is tuning people in enough that they would see it. You know, they connect the dots because they've heard an input or training inputs, something like that, or they've, you know, and this is the same for the community, really. Is that if you see things, it's a bit like, um, I always sort of try and, you know, let, let's take the example of there was a big thing in London, we had a lot of bombings back, you know, twenty years ago or so, and um, there's always this kind of, if you see a bag, unattended bag, you know, you get the announcements, don't you, sometimes newspapers, and I'm sure you have that here as well. It's kind of tuned people into that. They'll, they'll go, there's a bag over there and there's no one here, you know, and I remember riding the tube after the two thousand and five bombings in London, the seven, seven.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  And that happened on one of the train. It was the day after and, and you know, the people were shouting about that bag. There's nothing in it.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  But it, it's kind of, it's the being tuned in so that you see it. If you've never heard of this, or you've never thought about how it happens or what you might see, you're not going to react. But it, I, what I'm trying to do here is to make some of these warning signs, a little bit like that bag.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  So if you, if it doesn't matter if you're a police officer or you work for an agency or just a member of the community, because it's not as simple as it being a police problem. It, it stretches back. And so if you, if you know someone, or even if you don't, and you hear them talking about this sort of thing, it's the equivalent of that, that unattended bag.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  You pick up the phone, you go online, you, you, you, you call the police or you call someone, or you tell somebody, maybe you tell friend, parents, family, whatever. You're on, you're online and someone's talking like this. That's the way I would see it. Because most, like the bag, most of the time it's nothing.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  But this is like a metaphorical, right?

• 32:46Speaker 00

  But I, I do understand what you're saying because we all became aware of that bag situation. Anytime you'd walk through an airport, public transport.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Any locations and if you saw a bag there unattended, you, you're looking around. So we did become aware of that.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  And, and think about it like, I mean, I, these sorts of things I think about, you know, obviously lots of people don't, you know, it's probably not great, but nowadays, a lot of these attacks are rudimentary. They're, they're knives in cars and

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Things like that, right? So you're not going to see necessarily as often maybe nowadays, the bag, the bomb and all this. Not saying it won't happen or never happen.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  What I'm trying to say is some of these warning signs, which are kind of behaviors.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Oh, your metaphorical bag, unattended bag, a combination of them, but particularly this idea of leakage behaviour, particularly if someone actually says that they're intending to be violent because of some issue, they've got grievance, ideology, cause. That's what I would try and connect to it. And I'd say exactly the same to a police officer as I would to anyone. And because it's very difficult to spot this, it's not, it's like a little bit like a needle in a haystack.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  In the sense that you don't quite know who, who it's gonna be. Previous roles, you know, I've, I've personally had the responsibility for a number of people I've been concerned about, but that in a country can stretch to hundreds. You don't know which one is gonna be.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  You can't just, it's not minority report, you can't just guess. But you can, you can sort of say someone's concerning, but what you do see is this kind of pathway or journey towards the attack. That's when you start to see things that are recognisable.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm coming at it from a different, a different way of, of kind of warning signs.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  They're basically the only things we've got to go on at this stage.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  This is it, yeah. And I said, I said it before already, um, if you can stop one.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  You know, it's worthwhile. Um, and ultimately if someone says something that they didn't really mean.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  You know.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  You can clarify it or.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  It can be explained, yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Or if someone said something, just by the police turning up and speaking to them, it might check them a little bit, it might, okay.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've got to rein that in.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Exactly. With the policing, the way it is now, do you think we've got access to experts like yourself in policing? Do you think there's a role to have more psychological input into it, more understanding of these type of crimes, uh, or potential for these crimes? Cause it's very difficult. Police by nature, black and white thinking. Um, yeah, I think that's the way we look at it as an offence being committed, no. Have we got the right people looking at this in law enforcement? And I'm not talking New South Wales, I'm not talking the UK, just across the board. Do you think there's a need to have people with the type of expertise that you bring to the table involved in this type of proactive investigation?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean largely speaking internationally, you do have psychologists or people with behavioural science backgrounds kind of involved in most countries. You know, it ranges of course. For me, like I've seen, I've seen different countries do this in different ways. Some focus more in the community and some focus more on kind of detection and all that sort of stuff. So there's a different emphasis. Where I've, where I've probably been most impressed is in America, where they have quite an open

• 36:16Speaker 01

  threat assessment community where they, this kind of runs through law enforcement, but also runs through into education, social work, mental health, all those kinds of things. They, they obviously have an issue there with school shooting, which is considerable. And like most things in life, like there's, that's a reaction to that, isn't it? Like enough people have got together and said, how do we stop this? Because it's happening and happening and it's kids, you know, it's children. And that's right, but, but what's impressive about it is just how far it stretches, the awareness of it. So rather than just seeing the aftermath again and again, you know, and having that view of it

• 36:57Speaker 01

  and that fear about it, they managed to kind of create almost like a structured movement there of training people to spot the signs within different agencies and things like that. And they're very proactive about it. So I find that approach is very interesting because it kind of sits where, where I do with it. Where I think, I think awareness is, is the way to go. Because you're not, you know, say you, but I mean, law enforcement aren't going to stop every single one of this, one of these, you know, it's not possible. Even with the best will in the world, because it doesn't come from nowhere. But often the cases that you see aren't necessarily the priorities. Because they're not, they're not showing that outwardly to, to law enforcement or other agencies.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  But they might be showing it online or with, within their family friend groups.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  So it's kind of, it's not hidden, but it's, it's, you, you, you can't necessarily find every person with these extreme views and then follow them around every day of the week. You know, it's not realistic. So this is an alternative way to look at it. It's, it's to, it's to make people aware so that when they see it, they're tuned in enough. They don't have to understand it completely, but they're tuned in enough to call in. You know, that's the, the emphasis.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Um, fixated persons units have been starting to evolve in, in law enforcement in this country. I see this in expertise, like the average police officer and expertise, because what you've outlined during our discussions here. There's a lot of depth to it, a lot of understanding and I can confirm you're a psychologist because you never give a straight answer on the question. Sarah, you'll, you'll talk.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Good, I'm glad to hear it.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  There's always an alternative.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Glad to hear it.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Just tell me yes or no. But, um, you need people with that sort of understanding, the subtlety of it, because there can be little warning signs. I always, uh, I, I had concerns with any time that I'd came across someone that was stalking. And I, cause I saw the after effects as a homicide detective, like stalking to me is a red, red flag. That's come from experience and expertise that's built up over the years. We need police that fully understand the complexities of this and the subtleties of it, because it's not black and white, is it?

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, interestingly stalking i- is also could be described as a grievance. You know, field based violence, you know, because often that's, it, it, it just changes because it's of, of normally or mostly about rejection.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  And control and things like that. But, um, the, the, there's a kind of a grievance and an anger behind a lot of that too. So most crimes, violent crimes can be kind of viewed in that same way. But you're right, there, there is a need to understand it. It, otherwise it just keeps happening and there's no kind of, um, progression, you know, in terms of trying to reduce it. I think something that's always struck me about it is that. It's viewed quite often as a unstoppable act, you know, random. I think it used to use it in the media a lot, random attack. It was a phrase I never really liked.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Because I just don't think that's the case. There is, there is something about how people get into this position. And it's easy to think about good and evil as well, you know, and all this sort of stuff. But I'm not so interested necessarily in why they do it, but more so in terms of what that tells you that can help you prevent it.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Well, that's a big thing. It's what we've got a aim for, isn't it? The, the prevention.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, prevention is a massive thing. The motivation is, is a bit like, as a detective, you, you worked on murder cases, your motivation to get the justice for the family, to solve the case, to, to get that person locked up, all that sort of thing. You know, I've always had that too, because I was a detective. This is the same thing, really. It's just recognizing that you're trying to catch them before they do it and save an unknown family member. The worst thing about this sort of work, I suppose, personally, or for people in this space, is that often you never know if they really were going to do it.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Do you see what I mean? So you, so you're not necessarily, you know, you, sometimes it gets so close, you can

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  sense that it really was going to happen. But sometimes you just, you just never know.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  You don't know.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  No, but you, but that shouldn't, I don't think that should stop you trying. I mean, it's, it is what it is, you know?

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Hey guys, it's Gary Jubelin here. Want to get more out of iCatch Killers? Then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify, where you can watch every episode of iCatch Killers. Just search for iCatch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. It's a difficult part of law enforcement. I think there's a lot of pressure there. Homicide and people identify homicide as pressure and yes, there is pressure when you're trying to catch the person that's murdered someone. But this, I would have sleepless nights if things were coming across my table as a senior investigator. This person might be about to do this. Do we move on this? Do we not move on it?

• 42:09Speaker 00

  There's a lot of pressure trying to prevent crime rather than solving crime. I think there's an added pressure to preventing the crime.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's easy for me now to sort of talk about this from a point of view of, you know, generally, how do we prevent it? But certainly in my career, like I've had responsibility is probably the right word for people that might do this. And that pressure is real. Yeah, I mean, you talk about sleepless nights, but you, you know, often you'd wake up and the news would come on and someone's carried out an attack and the first thing you think, which is a shame, but is that my person? You know, you think, do you see what I mean?

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  And I think detectives, you know, this isn't just in what I've done, but detectives generally do hold a lot of responsibility and weight on their shoulders, you know, I think it shouldn't be underestimated that, you know, generally what they have to do. You carry on with your job and you're professional, but you still have to carry in the back of your head the potential risk that might happen because you have or haven't done something, you know.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  I think it was Dave Gaul that I had on the show here and he was a friend through work, worked in homicide with him and different parts, but he ended up specialising in counter-terrorism and he would wake up, he said he'd wake up each morning and then when it wasn't the lead story or there wasn't something that happened, he'd think that was a good night.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a strange feeling. Yeah, and I guess it's perfectly natural, given what you're doing. I think sometimes people with detectives, they focus on the fact that they're there to investigate. But during an investigation, sometimes you're suspect or the victim, anything can happen. It's so unpredictable and.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Things happen all the time. And you sort of, you balance all that risk, don't you?

• 44:04Speaker 00

  And I, I don't think if you're invested in it, I don't think you fully appreciate the pressure until you step away from it.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  That you, you carry it and you think that's the norm and then you step away from it and what I'm not responsible for what happened overnight in this state.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I said to, to offline, um, so I moved to, to Australia, my partner's from Australia. So we moved to Australia, we moved to like a, initially we moved to like a beach town.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  And I couldn't work in the first few months.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I was gone from being in the police to suddenly being this most beautiful place like paradise. I just, you know, wandering around just thinking, okay. And what was really strange was struggling slightly to, to actually relax. Yeah. Cause I was so used to the pace of what I was doing before, but also just as you touch on there, so many things came back to me at that point that I hadn't thought about for years because I'd left. It's like your brain sort of goes, okay, now, now you can think about these things again. So, you know, some good, some bad, but just a lot, it was a lot to kind of think about, you know.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Process or.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  I had a homicide detective from the UK here and he was talking about cases and he said, the strange thing is now. When I was working the cases, I didn't feel the emotion attached, but now I've stepped away and I start talking about these cases and I'm overwhelmed with emotion from it. And I suppose that's.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, just your, your way of coping when you're in the, in the.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  I think, I think it's sort of, you put a shield up daily, don't you?

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Sort of thing and you don't, it's busy, you don't have time to really think about it. So.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Something major might happen in one, one shift or day and you go home and you think, wow, you know, but then you're back in the first thing the next day. Again, if something worse happens or more, you know, and so you never really get a moment to really take it in. So, yeah, it's been interesting now, cause.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, as I say, feel lucky in a sense, but some people, it's tough, you know.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I've seen, seen colleagues that have hit the wall for a variety of reasons.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  And it's horrible to see them go from the, the people you know to what, yeah. The pain and, and the emotions that they, they carry, but yeah, a lot of people find their way out of it too, which is always, always good to see.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And that's.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Um. I hope your expertise has been, uh, I was gonna say exploited, probably not the right word, but utilized over here. Is there stuff that you're still doing and with using your expertise?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I I'm able to educate people and train people on this subject. So I'm still able to do that. And it's a really important um thing for me too. So it's lovely to be able to share the expertise, you know, cause it's um the thing about being in the police or being a detective is that sense of uh meaning, meaning for work, right?

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  So I'm still able to do some of that. So that's great. Yeah. So.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Oh, well, that with your expertise, it'd just be a shame if it's not uh not utilized, like such a broad depth of experience.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Um, we have, I'm not suggesting you sign up and start policing again, then we put you back in the uniform for uh two years. But um over here, I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK, we're we're really struggling to attract people to policing.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  The recruiting is very difficult, uh, pretty much across the board uh in the Australia.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Um. Is it the same over in the UK from what you understand?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um. I don't know the exact figures, but it over time it's become more uh difficult. And also when I was um, what I noticed a little bit too is that a lot of uniform officers, you know, guys in uniform, um, stop wanting to be detectives. And this is a kind of combination of things from like austerity cuts and um numbers of officers and things like that. But I think what what uniform officers worked out or some of them would was that your shift would end and then a new kind of um shift would come in behind you twenty four seven. So you you'd go home roughly on time unless there was a major. Whereas detectives seem to just sort of carry on regardless.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  See many, many people sleep under their desks and, you know, I mean, as a boss, you know, as in a, you know, a detective, I used to have to tell people to go home. Sometimes I'd walk in, I couldn't work out if they'd been at home or not.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  I always hated when the cleaner would start cleaning at two o'clock in the morning when you're under your desk.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I tried really hard as I became more senior to to set an example and make sure I went home. Cause you it never stops. You could easily work twenty four seven. But I think I think that puts people off because it's hard to have any life balance, isn't it?

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  When it when it's like that and. Part of the problem is, I think you can do that when you're young. But if you have a family or you're older and you've got other commitments, it's very difficult.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  And so I think in terms of trying to recruit and things like that, that you know, that it feels like that's one of the things they need to focus on a little bit more is to make it more palatable. But as you would well know, you're there at sort of, I don't know, ten o'clock at night. You've almost packed your bag to go home, haven't you? And then the phone rings and then it's the biggest job of your life and you're there twelve hours later still.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  That's.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  This is, this is the truth of it. But I laugh with friends who've done it. That's bad because it's horrendous hours. But it's also, there was also an element of it which was just so exciting because anything can happen. You know, so it's also something that's good fun as well, you know, the job, working in those sorts of situations.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think that's a pretty balanced view that you give of policing. Like I ask people, a lot of people who've been through long careers and would they, yeah, do it all over again? And yeah, invariably it's yes. So a couple of people said, no, no way. It just depends, but I suppose the pressure that the work, there is a reward to. And that's what I, and yeah, it does impact on your, your private life, most definitely, and impact on lots of things. But there is, there is a reward. And I think, and you're the psychologist, so you should probably add to this. Everyone wants to be a detective. You even wanted to be a detective as a psychologist.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  I think we've just got an inquiry in mind.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  And that's why true crime or crime is so fascinating for people because everyone wants to solve the crime.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I mean, it's the best job in the world, absolutely. Yeah, you, you, you can't deny it. It's not, I always sort of laugh, you know, I talked at the start about Sherlock Holmes and stuff, you know, and, and all these detective characters in fiction, they have like problems, don't they? And the pressure and all that. And I think, I looked at it and thought, I used to love all that. When you do it, you realise, well, they've only got one crime to solve. You know, they've got, they've got so much time compared to what an average detective would have. I used to run thirty crimes at a time, you know, and, and so it's kind of interesting how, how it's played or played out, isn't it?

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Played out.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  But yeah, so it is a great job. So when I was up at the, the beach wondering what to do, I started writing down kind of my, my stories and stuff. Cause it. It's always that there's it's such a um the whole the whole thing's often built on kind of experience and its stories and it's a fascinating job to do. Yeah. If anyone wants to do it, then go for it. It's a brilliant job. Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Well, if you start talking about the book, you've got one customer here. I'll definitely buy buy buy your book.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Pay my bills.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  I I think that that would that would be fascinating and that from um um my own experience writing after I left the police, it was cathartic in a way in the understanding what you did because you walk away from it and go, what was that all about? And you break it down and you get a get and it it made you realise the intensity of some of the things that you'd been through.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, I described myself, like you, I think you called me it, but it's fair, like a geek, a young geek almost, you know. It's like if you have a comfort zone, it it just pushes you out of that.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  You know, and you come out the other side, a different person, really, you know.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  One hundred percent.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  It's incredible journey. Yeah.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, that that's probably the advice I I give to people if they're talking about police. I say, I enjoyed it. But the thing that you know that if you join the police and have a career in policing, it's going to change you as a person. Now, if you want to pay that price or it might change it for the better, I don't know, but it will change you. And I think that's the most honest, genuine advice.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Give to people inquiring. Well, Ian, thank you so much for your time. Um fascinating. I'm not going to say I'm not going to get you back on because I could delve in a lot further into your fascinating career. But also for your insights into what is now what I consider very concerning in that the lone actors and and mass killings, it's something that we've all got to try and try and prevent. And as you highlighted today, it's not just from a policing perspective that everyone's got to invest in this to make sure it doesn't happen.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, it's a good message. So yeah, thanks for having me on.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Cheers.