Surviving the aftermath of his mum's murder: Ashton Kline Pt. 2

After Ashton Kline's mother Viola was murdered by his dad after decades of abuse, he faced a choice "Do I let it destroy me?" In Part 2, Ashton sits down with Gary to share what came after, the unbreakable bond with his younger brother Grant, being taken into foster care with their belongings in a garbage bag, and going from family to family. Ashton talks about the red flags that were missed in the build-up, learning to carry trauma rather than be defined by it, building a toolkit for recovery, and why he and Grant chose not just to survive, but to thrive. For Ashton, it's about carrying his mum's memory forward, so her loss is not in vain, and using their story to help others understand the impact of domestic violence and homicide. Find out more about The Alannah & Madeline Foundation Buddy Bag program here https://www.alannahandmadeline.org.au/what-we-do/care-programs/buddy-bags. Find out more about What Ally Needs Now, a children's book created by Ashton and researchers at The University of Melbourne to help children navigate grief after fatal family violence here https://outcomes.org.au/order-the-book/?prev_bc=66353. If you or someone you know has experienced domestic, family or sexual violence, you can call 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732, text 0458 737 732 or visit 1800respect.org.au https://1800respect.org.au/ for online chat and video call services. You can watch I Catch Killers on Youtube here. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Welcome back to my chat with Ashton Klein, a truly remarkable human being. In part two, Ashton reveals how he carried two terrible burdens at once. Grieving his mother's murder at his father's hands, and also stepping up to protect his chronically ill younger brother, Grant. He takes us inside the foster care system and his fight to keep Grant by his side. We talk about his inspiring path to not only rebuild himself, but his life mission to break the cycle of violence and help children who need it most. It's a story that's both heartbreaking and inspiring. Take a listen. Ashton Klein, welcome back. Part two of I Catch Killers.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary. Appreciate it.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, I know the topic of conversation is such a heavy conversation, but as we both talked about before, sitting down and doing the podcast, it's important messaging that needs to get out. And so I appreciate you telling the story. And yeah, I hope people are listening to it, understanding the impact of domestic violence. And then at the extreme, what happens when someone's life is taken? And it doesn't just affect one person's life, there's a ripple effect. And yeah, sadly, there's too many examples across the country of domestic-related murders.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I think, and I think that's absolutely right. You, I think people, when I talk to people about my life, people often think that there was nothing. And then there was this incident that occurred, and then life went back to normal. You know, like as if there was this kind of, you know, predominant kind of period of a couple of months where you kind of grieve, and then you don't carry it anymore and life moves forward, I guess. But what, one of the things that I've learned is, you know, and I was saying in the previous episode, that you never get rid of carrying that trauma

• 2:57Speaker 01

  and the impact of domestic violence, domestic homicides, sexual assault and sexual assault. You never get rid of those things. You carry them with you and you just learn how to carry them a little easier, I think. And I think you're right, it doesn't, it doesn't affect when someone is murdered, particularly by an intimate partner. The ripple effect is not just to them, it's the entire family, it's the entire community. And, you know, the layers that exist and result as a result,

• 3:36Speaker 01

  that kind of culminate as a result of that are so phenomenal and so far-reaching.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  The fact that you haven't let it destroy you, and there's a lot in a quote that I've picked up that you've said. And can I read it out and then we can discuss that?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, a bit worried here, but yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Well, shall I put it in a quote?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm only joking.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  A quote from a very wise person.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  At some stage, I consciously said to myself, do I want this to destroy me? Or do I want to use this to fuel my journey? So I think that deciphering between, do I let it destroy, destroy myself? Or is this going to point me in a direction of what my life is going to be about?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, you know what? The moment for me of that split decision was sitting in that room after viewing my mother's 99% burnt body and going, okay, I can either sit here for the next three weeks and just do nothing, because that's what I felt like. And that would have absolutely, you know, the world would have allowed me to do that. And I would have had all the excuses in the world to be able to do that. Or I can move forward, knowing that mum wouldn't have wanted me to do that.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  And also that my brother needs me. And I think that's, those are the two factors that got me up out of that chair in that, in that small room that we're in at the Alfred Hospital, is that I had one responsibility for my brother. And I had made a promise over my mum's burnt body that I wouldn't, I would care for him always. So, you know, in that moment, I don't know what it was that made me kind of think like that or made me make that, that split decision to kind of, but you know, as I've grown older and dare I say wiser, arguably so, it's, it's one of those things that I kind of go, I don't know what it was about that, but I just made that decision and that was it.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  And I'm so glad that I did. And it's allowed me to, to kind of carry mum's memory, to allow her murder to not be in vain and her death to not be in vain, but also to teach people, you know, and to advocate for people, to do things that I would never have imagined that I would be doing right now. You know, I work with a university up in Queensland on a respect program, teaching young people about respectful relationships. You know, using my lived experience of domestic and family violence to fuel those conversations,

• 6:33Speaker 01

  to highlight what you can do as a bystander, you know? I'm part of a research group, homicide at home with the University of Melbourne, that has produced a children's book called What Ellie Needs Now. And the characters in that book are based on Grant as a six-year-old and me as a 15-year-old and the support that we needed.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  You know, I could never have imagined doing that stuff. I'm here talking with you today, you know, like, you know, I would never have imagined that I would even be able to articulate the things that I've been through in a way that is resourceful and educative for people and that people can draw something from it. You know, people, people say I'm an inspiration. I don't, I don't kind of think of it in that way. I think more, I've got a duty. I've been through this and I have survived somehow. I have survived. And my duty is now to help other people survive and to thrive, you know, in a world that doesn't want them to or doesn't provide for them as much as it should, you know?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  So if I can do that in sharing my story, sharing my journey and some of the tricks of the, you know, the way in which I've kind of learned to deal with things and the tools that I've collected along the way, then, you know, that's the least that I can do. Because, you know, I think I'm trying to be now the person that I needed when I was 15 for other people. And I think that's very important for me because I didn't have a lot of people who were there for me when I was 15 and were the people that I needed. I had a number of people who had massive impacts in my life over that period.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  But I am trying to be and live out the life of a person that can be there for people who go through this kind of stuff.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that lived experience, sadly, the lived experience that you went through, but it has shaped the person you are today. There's another layer to this horrific situation that you've described, finding out that your mother's been killed or has died. Then the realization that it wasn't an accident, it was at the hands of your father. How and when did that become apparent to you?

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Immediately after we we got back to Kiabram, we had some arson squad detectives arrive um on our doorstep the next the next morning. So we got back to Kiabram after being at the Alfred Hospital. Must have been about one AM, I reckon. Um. That drive home was um like no other. Um. One that I can remember vividly, but um next morning, uh bright and early, we have um something about government cars that sits with me, you know, in those days, the the Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore that and the red government plates um

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  that you'll be all too familiar with. But um but they they they arrived. Uh Marty Robinson was the investigating officer and the the detective leading the investigation and he he sat us down, both Grant and I, and he said, look, I I don't know how to tell you this, but we we believe that the incident that occurred yesterday leading to your mother's death was no accident. Um. And so we're now investigating the matter um and we we'd like to, in your own time, kind of ask you some questions around the events that led up to that and so forth. And so

• 10:14Speaker 01

  I don't even know how uh in that moment, we kind of grappled with that. I don't think we did, to be honest. I don't think we actually thought, okay, this this has transpired in a way that, you know, like my father has premeditated my mother's murder. Um. She is now dead. He's in hospital under police guard and we are somehow living in the family home, the two of us. Uh. Like, and and we're gonna now answer some questions for the police. Um. And it wasn't until Marty started asking us questions

• 10:57Speaker 01

  that I actually thought, fuck, this is a, can't say that word, sorry. So, you know, fuck, this is this has actually happened. Like, you know, this is

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Murder investigation.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a murder investigation. Our father has doused our mother in petrol, set her alight and killed her. Like, it's not until he started probing into the events leading up to that and and all of the things that suddenly made sense, you know. Um. So from from there, I understand he was arrested and and Marty

• 11:37Speaker 01

  did what Marty does, but, you know, in such a such a great way of supporting us as well. And um, you know, I actually reached out to Marty a few years ago and uh and he was absolutely blown away to hear from me, but um it was lovely to reconnect um and and chat with him. Yeah, absolutely. But um we, I, to be honest, I don't remember much of the police investigation from that point forward. Once Marty asked his questions, his initial questions, we were interviewed, we gave our statements to police. Um. What happened next for us is

• 12:16Speaker 01

  the, cause, cause for me, we were sitting in a home, we had our, we had our belongings, we were sitting in our family home. I was caring for Grant. And even though we'd been through this traumatic experience and I I looked over mum's, you know, burnt body and and for us, we were actually okay. We had each other um and we were actually okay. It's what came next for us that really kind of reminded us or or drew the kind of the nail in the uh, you know, in the coffin, so to speak, to because we then had another government car arrive. And I remember it's one of those bloody maroon cars and I can never look at them.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  And these two, these two middle aged women get out of this car and I look out the window and I go, oh, something's not right here. Something's not right. And this is two days after, um sorry, three days after mum's murder. And these middle aged women come up to the door and they say, hi, we're we're from Child Protection. And uh it was that point there, I just go, right, this is, this is not going to go well for us. Um. You know, as much as they said, you know, we're here to support you and and all the rest of it, I just went, no, I don't like this. Um. And and it's that point there that I I became, that was the moment I became an adult. Um. A a child in an adult's world, essentially, because

• 13:41Speaker 01

  we were then thrown into a system of foster care, going from family to family. We were thrown into the court system, going through fam uh magistrate's court so that they could get, you know, custody of us and make decisions about our lives and all the rest of it. And here I was as a fifteen year old saying, look, just piss off, would you? I actually just want to. I just want to care for my brother and be left alone.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  And and that's it. Um. And so for us, that that was, you know, that was kind of the um the thing that undone at all, because, you know, what happens in a in an intimate partner homicide is you don't lose the person that's just, as we said before, you don't just lose the person that's murdered. You lose the other side of that as well. So we lost both of our parents in one foul swoop, you know. One, we were almost glad to get rid of, but the, you know, the the the fun, the side of it is that we lost all of our caregivers, so we had no one to care for us. And that that meant that we were awards of the state.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  How how long did you get kept in the uh as award of a state and kept in the foster system? Did that go through to your eighteen?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Till I was eighteen, yeah. So they they refused um much to my disgust and my um disapproval. Um. They refused to allow me to care for Grant independently. Um. And in fact, attempted to separate us um on a number of occasions because of Grant's care needs.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  So, you know, at the heart of when we needed each other most, we had the government um basically saying to us, um we need to send Grant to Melbourne to be close to the Royal Children's Hospital. And you, we don't really care about you that much because you're nearly sixteen. Um. And if you want to live independently, you can at sixteen. Um. So, look, we'll we'll take Grant and put him into foster care in Melbourne. Um. And uh and you can stay in Kiabram in a foster family in Kiabram till you're sixteen and then we'll support you to get independent living. And I was like, well, hell no, that's not happening. And um it it was only because we came in contact with the Ilana Madeline Foundation

• 15:53Speaker 01

  um that we we remained together. Um. That uh so so that foundation stepped in and said, have we have we talked to these boys about what they need? And have we looked at what they actually need to to grieve through this traumatic experience? And and and what it what it is they need is to be together.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  Okay, so that that's your connection with the foundation, because I

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  wanna talk, talk about the work that they do, but that's that's very uh significant. And uh

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  And good on you for, yeah, sticking with your brother and arguing the case and, yeah, making life difficult for the people that just want to separate you, because uh that's a lot, I I would imagine that's the last thing you would have needed in the circumstances.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I I wouldn't be the person I am today without. If that if that had happened, I would be one hundred percent in a gutter, shooting up drugs.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Bitter, twisted, angry.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  You know, bitter, twisted, angry, all the rest of it. I'm still bitter and twisted and angry about things.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  But um not as much.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  It it all goes in degrees, doesn't it?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  That's right, it does.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Your father, he pleaded not guilty, went to uh court, you you had to go through all the the trauma associated with that. And trial is a a trauma, um the the pressures of that. But one thing that came out in the trial or in the investigation that uh yeah, is quite frightening, is the fact that uh so many people, he had told so many people, basically his plans on what he was gonna do to your mother.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Oh, as I, I was seven, sixteen, sixteen when the uh by the time it rolled around to the Supreme Court, almost seventeen. And uh so he'd been held in remand and it went through uh the Supreme Court and they held a a session in Shepparton because they wanted to show the jurors the site um at at which it occurred. And listening, the hardest, the hardest part about all of this for me was the fact that two weeks prior to mum's murder, my father had had been telling people exactly what he was going to do.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  He couldn't even afford the petrol to douse the caravan in petrol himself. So he borrowed the petrol and he hounded someone for the petrol to do it. And listening to those people stand up in court and say, oh, yeah, he was at the pub, uh, you know, three days before that, and he said, I'm gonna kill the bitch.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna do it in the caravan at the back of the house and I'm gonna set her on fire.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Listening to those people give evidence, I I just thought to myself, there's nothing quite like being, I I know the language now, I didn't know then, but there's nothing quite like being a passive bystander, right? And and just kind of, you know, accepting that. But but uh back then I thought, I can't understand why why he didn't do anything. And then they said in court, you know, these these witnesses who who were all fabulous people, you know, in the community and and all the rest of it. No nothing, nothing hard against them because um look, to be honest, my dad was a nutter. Um but but their rationale was, we just thought he was off his rocker. You know, and he'd never, he'd he talked about a lot of stuff over the years, you know, he'd come into the pub and he'd,

• 19:29Speaker 01

  he'd go on about this and he was really fixated on this and whatever else and and uh we just, we just kind of got to use, we got used to kind of listening to all these ramblings um of this madman in the town. And we just thought, oh, he's he's just off his rocker again, you know? We never thought he'd follow through.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  But uh there there's lessons to be learnt from that, isn't there?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Um absolutely.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  And we were talking multiple people, uh uh you had the

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Twenty, twenty.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I thought I read twenty and I just wanted to check with you before I said it. So twenty people saying that. And this is where education, and this is a large part of what you you've been doing. But this is where education plays an important role. Yeah, I understand someone, oh, he's just a nutter. But these type of things, and I I you can talk from your experience, I'll talk from my experience. These are the type of things that need to be brought to the attention of police. Let the police determine if it's just a nutter.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  If someone's threatening to kill their, kill their wife down the pub, I don't care how drunk they are. Even the the more drunk they are, maybe the the more weight you can place on it too. Uh because of the filters have gone.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  These passive bystanders, we've all got to, the police can't turn around domestic violence on on their own. They need everyone working on it. And these are the type of things that if you hear someone making a threat, oh, when I get home, she's gonna cop it. You hear those type of comments, phone the police.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely. There's some, there's some very wise words that that are kind of, I instill in um people that I speak to now and that that is, and it's it's gonna, I'm gonna hate the fact that I can't remember the guy's name, but um the uh general of the Australian Army once said, the behaviour that you walk past is the standard that you accept.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  You know, and I I think that rings true to the passive bystander moment there because if you're willing to stand in a pub and have a beer with someone who's saying, I'm gonna kill the bitch, I'm gonna set her on fire.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna douse the caravanning petrol out the back of my yard and push her in and set her, you know, stick a match in and set her alight. If you're willing to accept that type of language about a woman, uh about anyone, um then you're accepting that as kind of okay behaviour and okay language. And I I think that's the key in all of this is if you, you know, if you're willing to walk past that, that's that's not okay, right? And that's what we need to change is kind of that moment of, as you said, if you hear that language, that should say to you, actually, I need to do something about this.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I I actually need to just do something because I'm a decent human being and that's not decent human being behaviour, you know? Um and I think that's, that's where the problem lies is we, we have a culture in the world where we don't pry into other people's business and domestic violence is one of those things. Oh, you know, it's behind closed doors, I'm not really sure how to get involved and all the rest of it. Well, this, this man, my father, had attempted to murder me

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  in January of that year. And what we know from the research is that people who perpetrate violence are more likely to perpetrate again. That they're more likely to become more enraged or more in infatuated with that kind of sense of power that they get from that as time goes by and that the behaviour escalates. And that's exactly what happened in this case. And it's more likely to happen when someone leaves the relationship, you know, and I think, I think all the, all the predictors were there, right? You've even got the man standing there telling him exactly how he's gonna do it.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  I it's, it's, well, it's been describ, and I reference the times in in homicide when you look back and you can see all these red flags, this this crime, there was a build up, all this, all the warning signs that were missed for a variety of reasons and then the end result is a murder. Laura Richards is a, uh that's when we're having a chat the other day, that's the woman I wanted to reference, I had her on the podcast. Criminologists and vastly experienced in uh in domestic violence.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  And the facts and figures, and she's UK based, facts and figures that she was describing in regards to domestic related murders. The risk factors is when the person is trying to break away from the relationship. So that that's why so many people are just sort of stepped back. But again, education, so we know that's when the victim is at the highest risk, when they're trying to break away from the the relationship. If someone, and the figures, that I I I should have um got the figures, but I'll I'll talk it in a general sense. If someone's been in a domestic relationship, that's they're now separated or an intimate relationship is probably the better word.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Intimate relationship in which they've now uh separated. And the person, the aggroved partner, makes threats to kill that person, the likelihood of that occurring is astronomical. Like

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, through the roof.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  It's intimate relationship, separated, and that person hasn't let it go to the point they're making threats to kill that person, the likelihood of that happening is uh extreme.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  And and as a, you know, in those circumstances, one woman dies every week

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  in Australia, as in those circumstances, you know, it it's, it's phenomenal, you know? Uh by, killed by an intimate partner in those exact circumstances. So if nothing else, you know, my journey, this, this

• 25:32Speaker 01

  this whole sequence of events highlights the importance of people stepping in and taking, taking action, you know? Um and, you know, action doesn't need to be, you know, wrestling the guy to the, to the ground or, you know, and and restraining him and saying, no, you're not, you're not going anywhere, um, you know? It it's a, you know, no one let my mum know.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  You know, that that's the thing for me is

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Well, that's the point.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Two, two weeks prior, he's going around the town, in a town of six thousand, the whole town would have been talking about this, you know? Um but two weeks prior, he's going around telling this, not one person said to my mum, hey, I just want you to know, he's been saying some things that are quite concerning. You might wanna just watch yourself, you know, around him at the moment, et cetera. She went in to clean some toys out of a caravan because he'd been calling for two weeks saying you must come on the twenty seventh of September.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Now, if someone had said to her a couple of days before, hey, I was, I was chatting to him, you know, at the pub, but he said he's gonna douse you in petrol and set you light in a caravan. Do you reckon, do you reckon she might have said, I might not go to that caravan today? You know, I don't know, but, you know, who knows? Uh hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I just think for me, if someone said that to me, there's no way that I would go anywhere near a caravan for someone who's gonna

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Uh uh hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think that's a reasonable assumption. So that that's where, like, if people take nothing away from this podcast, other, other than the the fact that you can't be a passive observer in these situations. If you've got concerns and it costs nothing to phone the police and pass the information on.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Now, that one piece of information might seem insignificant, but when the police look back at the history of the situation, they'll go, okay, that that's concerning. So

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, en- encourage people to pass this on.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, Gary, I get really frustrated because, and I'm I'm not gonna call out any particular cases or anything like that, but but I get really frustrated when people go on the news, they go on, you know, these uh kind of phenomenal TV shows and say, we let the police know and they didn't do anything and all the rest of it, because that just deters people

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  from making those calls. Now,

• 27:56Speaker 01

  We don't know the circumstance of any of those cases that are on there, you know, and I'm not going to comment on any of those. But all I can comment on is this one. And all I can say is if one person had have picked up the phone and called the police and said, this is what this person is saying. The police may have just even come around to a house and said, look, this is what's been said, you know, is there anything that you might be worried about? And I could have said to the police, even as a fifteen year old, yeah, he's been calling for the last two weeks and really fixated on this date. And like you say, Gary, they could have then said, right, we've got this, this factor left nine months ago. There's a restraining order in place. There's a history of violence and aggression. He's now telling people he's going to perpetrate this and he's been calling to get her around for this day.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  They may have then just put the pieces together.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  And look, you know, look.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  It's, we laugh at it because it's so, so ridiculous, so horrific, but so, so ridiculous. And I think one thing.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  But also so straightforward, you know, like it's not rocket science.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  No, no, it's not rocket science. One thing that the media focus on it and it can say sensational headlines and different things. But I think what I know in policing, when the pressure's on, like the amount of domestic related murders, it's a lead story, it hits the news. I think by reporting it, highlighting it is a good thing because then that puts pressure on the police. So when we're saying, you know, you use the analogy that the police didn't follow up or do anything. I would hate to be the police officer that took the phone call from someone, warning someone and then a murder. Because what I can say, and I can say with confidence, when we start a homicide investigation, we look back through the whole thing.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  So for the police or the person that hasn't reported something, it will come out. That, that's the type of information that comes out and don't be the person that could have prevented a murder.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And you, you carry it, I'm sure, right? Like, I mean, from your perspective, you carry it. Because I, I remember when, when the murder happened, small town, country policing. A copper came to me after the murder and he said, I'm, I'm so sorry, I didn't. Because he had been the officer who had taken dad nine months ago after he tried to commit murder to me. And he said, I'm so sorry that I, I should have done more.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  You know, so it just, it just highlights that, that the police do everything they possibly can, but they can only act on the information that they have. And I think, you know, as I say, if you've got one role, if listeners have one role to play in this, take action, you know. Do something, pick up the phone.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  Most definitely. Um, your father ended up getting, was it fifteen years?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Twenty years with a, a served period of, yeah, he'd spent a couple of years in, in remand and, and had a fifteen year parole period. So, yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Did you ever speak to him after the incident or have any relationship with him after?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  He tried to track us down a couple of times through, God knows what resources they, I don't know what resources they give prisoners, to be honest. But God knows how he found our address and phone number. But certainly we, we had some interactions, we had calls from the prison a couple of times. And, you know, that, that definitive kind of, this is a call from H M A S, is not, no, that's, that's the, that's the ship, sorry. H M S Port Phillip Prison, you know, do you accept this call? And it's like, I don't want a call from, from him, you know. I mean, it was hard enough sitting through the Supreme Court trial with him in the, in the defendant kind of space. Sorry, I don't know the technical term for that.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Dock.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Dock in the dock, yeah. Hard enough sitting in the, in the dock. But he was very determined to donate a kidney to Grant. So he wrote letters saying that he wanted to donate to Grant. He tried to phone her saying that he really wanted to donate to Grant. And it's like, mate, your kidney's got cancer on it, you know, like.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  And also, do you really think that Grant wants a donor, a kidney from a bloke who just took away his only chance of living, you know?

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, you know, but he was so hell bent on that, that he tried to track us down with whatever resources he could. I, I guess the, the kind of flip side of it is that he must have had some rights to his children's whereabouts or some, you know, I don't know.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, they, they must have given him some information about the guardianship orders and all the rest of it. As, as our.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, and I've not against prisoners' rights and different things, but you fall go the right in the circumstances.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  I think so, I agree.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  I'm concerned the primary, uh, primary responsibility would be protecting you, you and Grant and not his feelings.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Anyway, um, we, one day we got a call from the prison and, and I picked up the phone and I decided to accept the call. Um, because it had been about probably nine months or so. Um, so it would have been two thousand and three, it would have been in year twelve.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  And there was a prison officer on the phone, um, letting us know that he'd, he'd passed away.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Um, so, uh, then, then the next kind of component of this grief then kind of kicked in really. Because how do you feel?

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Well, that, that was, you've, you've stolen my question, but how do you feel? Like, what, how do, how do you process that?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  I remember sitting Grant down, Grant was eight at the time. And I said, look, dad's, dad's passed away. And he said to me, should I be crying? He just, just looked at me, he said, should, I, I don't, I don't know. Uh, and I said, I, I don't know either. I, I genuinely don't know. I said, maybe I'm, maybe I'm a little. And Grant and I have always had a very honest, raw kind of relationship. So, so, you know. And I, I, one of the most powerful things that I decided to do with Grant is always tell him the truth.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Um, you know, whatever I could model for him. Um, and the behaviours that I could model for him, I thought it's best that he kind of learns how to, to live like this. Because I don't want to keep anything from him and stop him from being kind of the best version of him that he can be. So I just said to him, in a way, I'm glad, you know, because he would be out, he would be out right now. And trying to, trying to contact us, trying to be a part of our lives, you know, um, at, at the age of seventy or so. And, um, I'm so grateful that that's not the case, so grateful that that's not the case. Yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  No, you didn't need that, that liar. How, how did he die in prison? Was it?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  He had a, he had a abdominal aortic aneurysm.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Um, spontaneously rupture. Uh, so, um, you know, some, some may say that, um, in the end fate, you know, paid it.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, I was gonna say karma can be a shit sometimes, but, uh.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  That's absolutely right.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Uh, but, um, yeah, uh, and, and look, I mean, did he have a triple A? I, I don't, you know, prisons. All sorts of things happen in prison, right? I, I don't know. But, uh, but yeah, the, the whole process from then on. I don't know, it almost became, I don't want to, I don't want to use the term easy, uh, easier. I, I, a little less complicated. Um, because we were going from a point of, okay, we've, we've got to, um,

• 36:13Speaker 01

  go through this grief, then in fifteen years, we've got to deal with the man who murdered our mother coming back into our life. You know, and, and that for us is almost worse, worse, or it was worse than kind of dealing with the grief of the death. So you're just like, well, I've already grieved that we've lost both parents. It's, it's now final.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I can, I can understand what you're saying because that, that would have just created more turmoil and concern. He's out, you link to him whether you like it or not, he's your, your, your father and then, yeah, have to deal with that. So maybe it's best that it worked out, worked out that way.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Another thing that we talked about the other day was, um, the stigma surrounding women who stay in violent relationships. So I want you to, yeah, there's a couple of quotes from you that we can talk about. I'll just read that out. I think there's an idea that they should have just left the relationship and that by staying, it means they're weak. And in regards specifically your mother, my mother put up with violence, aggression and assault for nineteen years, all for the sake of her children. She was a stay at home mother who had no income and relied solely on my father for financial support. And she bore the brunt of that violence until it turned towards us children.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  I think we need to have the discussion about that too, because there is this misconception, well, you know, they're choosing to stay with him. That, let's, let's take that narrative away because there, there's circumstances that people don't fully appreciate that keep people in those relationships.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  For some reason, people think that.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  You know, it's it's it's a choice. Well, it's it's not a choice for someone who has been disempowered their entire life and been worn down so much that they've lost all sense of self-worth and all sense of capacity in terms of empowerment. So so they've got no power whatsoever. Their their lives have been controlled their entire life. And as we spoke about in the previous episode, my mother had also grown up in an environment like that. So so it was ingrained in her that she was disempowered, that she had no sense of entitlement, she had no self-worth.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  And then add to that, no income and two children that she had to care for, you know. So what were her choices in that? And and, you know, a system that was that was not really supporting her really. So, you know, her choices were to stay with the man and feel as though she could control almost as much of the narrative as she possibly could, but put food in the mouths of her children. Um, you know, and and provide them with some possible life. Um, you know, and and some kind of uh opportunities to thrive in a world that was not a thriving world for her. So there there, you know,

• 39:20Speaker 01

  the people who judge that, all I can say is, I highly recommend that you walk a thousand miles in those shoes because um, you cannot judge from the outside what someone is going through um as easily as that. It's very easy to, we we all lean into judgment as human beings. It's so easy to to naturally kind of fall into that, say, oh, you know, she stayed with him, what was, you know, that was the problem, etc. But until you've actually been in that situation yourself, you have no right, I don't think, to uh to make that assertion. Um, and I I think people do need to understand that there are often mitigating factors and factors that you'll never know about from the outside.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  You know, and it's also very hard in that situation to convince society that this person is doing all these things as well. You know, this is the other thing about my father is he he was definitely a sociopath of of phenomenal expertise. Um, he was the the great guy at the pub that shouted everyone a beer, you know, he was the the guy who was at the T A B having a chat to everyone. He'd walk down the street and someone would say, G'day, how are you? You know, that kind of um, you know, he was the he was the good guy in the town. Sure, a little bit of a a strange, you know, kind of character, but really an all round kind of good bloke, you know.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Um, got along with everyone. Um, and so no way was he kind of bashing up his kids and his wife and and all the rest of it, you know. There's no way that he was perpetrating that. So the other aspect of this is that from my mum's perspective, would people actually believe her? You know, like like he's he's done all this work in creating credibility for himself. So how would she then convince the police and society, you know, the community, that he's then raping her and bashing her? You know, it's it's

• 41:16Speaker 00

  The the good bloke um situation is so frustrating. Like, I I think so many people hide behind it. It's almost like with pedophiles, or if your father come into that category too.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  But they provide this persona that uh the kids are safe to hang out with Uncle Harry or whoever. No, he's good, he's great with kids. It's always they set set that up and uh the same with domestic violence. He's a good fella. Yeah, he loses his temper occasionally, but you see, he's always down cooking at the uh local football and the uh barbecue. He's doing this, he, yeah. We're naive to it.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, he used to, he used to swan me around. Um, I remember as a as a six year old to his I think his next prey, let's call them. Um, you know, he'd he'd swan me around as a six year old child and say, oh, you know, here's here's my six year old boy, you know, meet him. And then he'd use me as leverage in their relationship, you know, to try and get into this woman's life. Um, and me being six, I thought I'm just getting attention from my father, you know, so that that's great for me, you know. Um, and so I'd kind of go along for it. Um, but it's only recently that I've started to understand the complexities of all of that. But but yeah, he he'd use me as leverage and he'd kind of take me to these women's houses and I'd play with their kids and

• 42:39Speaker 01

  he'd be off with their their mum and whatever else. And then that all say, oh, he's a great bloke, you know.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, he's a piece of shit. I I know, yeah, the the the people that uh but do that, but yeah, they these are all the type of things, like the the shame that's attached. So that's why I'm glad coercive control is starting to come in the legislation. And we'll see how it plays out in the courts and how police use it. But I think it is a a good tool to have uh when it's used properly. The other the other thing that uh I go on about and I'll keep going on about until it's implemented everywhere is that uh with domestic violence situations, ankle bracelets, that how we could use them, tracking tracking devices that

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  It just seems to to me to be so simple. If an A V O is taken out against a person not to approach or assault. Okay, let's see if they abide by the A V O, that first first option. I'm not suggesting the moment someone makes an allegation, you get an ankle bracelet. But if you breach that A V O, the one that that people just say is just a piece of paper, what can you do? Well, you don't get a second chance, you get a tracking device on you. So what what does that achieve? It keeps you away from the area and if the person in need of protection, it gives them some comfort too. Like if you're if if your mother, you know, she agreed to to meet with him. But if it had escalated to the point where I'm not going anywhere near him,

• 44:09Speaker 00

  uh, a monitor that she's got, if he comes within a kilometer of your radius, you'll get you'll get notified, the police will get notified.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Oh, look, as I said, those nine months that that they were separated, he would he I would open the the window at three in the morning because I heard a noise, he'd be staring at me.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  You know, like you just, and how many times did he do that over that nine month period, you know, even though there was a restraining order, the police would then be called, he'd gone by that stage, you know, so they'd go around there, they'd remind him of the, you know, all the rest, all the things that they would do. But you're right. It's some sort of device like that. It's like, well,

• 44:47Speaker 01

  that that's what actually the tangible kind of impact, I guess, makes, you know.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Well, we're we're talking like starting states are considering it and the implementation, but let's make it a national problem, domestic violence and and

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Well, it is, it is a national problem. I'm gonna say that because we already know it is.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  As a national problem.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I get it. Yeah, yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  And uh, yeah, with politicians, forget the, you know, this party wants this, this party. Let's have a, yeah, a bipartisan approach to the way that we we deal with it.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  I just think in this day and age, you know, with A I taking over the world, which is another story, but we'll worry about that. We'll worry about that later if we're still here.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  But with the technology that we've got, um, why not use it? And to me, that then it goes past. An A V O order is now more than just a piece of paper it's written on. It is a way of preventing someone uh being harmed by a person that they're at risk from.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  And it it prevents behaviours escalating, you know, that's that's the key. And that and that's what we know from from all of the cases that are out there. We know that you know, behaviours escalate and when it gets to that point, these kind of things can protect, you know, people and and genuinely, you know, stop uh perpetrators from engaging in that behaviour.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  And I I'm I'm sure your father was emboldened by the fact that he could creep around there uh in the the middle of the night and there's no action. And I'm gone if I can hear the police car coming, I'll just run off into the bushes.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  That's right, you know, and and that sense of um, it's that control factor, you know, like that almost gave him. Um, I I'm sure he was probably getting off on the fact that, you know, he could do that freely. Uh, and and, you know, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, this is just a another thing for me to kind of manipulate my way around and and and work around. Um, it's it's no real barrier. I can get around it. Look at me, you know. Uh, watch, let him let him try and catch me, you know.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  The work that you're doing now, the associations you're involved in, the lecturing, you you the nurse, you're academic, you're a whole range of things. Tell us about your life, uh, posts or what we've talked about here. Your your life and and uh Grant's life, because you you're entwined, whether you like it or not, you guys are in this together.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  We're we're one in the same. We um, we we are definitely a partnership. Um, sometimes the partnership has some tension points and and that's what makes us brothers. And uh we're reminded of that most days, which was a a beautiful thing about kind of our brotherhood, I guess. Um, uh, but I I look, I mean, I I was a a nurse, I I I went into nursing. I decided at the age of fifteen that I wanted to be a police officer or a nurse.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Uh, and uh, I got into both. I got into the academy and I got into uh nursing at Melbourne Uni. And I decided um that Melbourne Uni were going to pay for me to study, so I would take up that option. Um, and and uh you'll understand and appreciate that the academy um salary wasn't that great.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  So I decided on nursing. But um, but there's something for me in in my career about having an impact on others and and informing others and educating others that has kind of inspired my journey. So when I became a nurse, it was about the impact that I could have, a tangible impact on people's lives and they're most vulnerable, you know. And for me now, I've I've moved into education. As you say, I'm a lecturer in nursing and a nursing academic and and um and now I I teach classes and facilitate class and respectful relationships. I do work with the Alana and Madeline Foundation and all of that is is really about

• 48:36Speaker 01

  The impact that I can have on people moving forward and and the the growth that I can give to people from my journey. So what is it that I can kind of give to people to help them thrive in this world that that wasn't given to me, you know, and the opportunity that wasn't afforded to me? Because, you know, I look back and I I always think about whenever I'm working in a workshop or whenever I'm even just doing things like, you know, these podcasts, I think, what is it that I needed as a fifteen year old?

• 49:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  You know, and I needed a podcast like this to listen to, to know that I wasn't alone, you know? I'm doing, I'm doing some work at the moment um with a research group from the University of Melbourne called Homicide at Home. And I think I mentioned earlier, we've, we've got, we've created a children's book called What Ellie Needs Now. The one great thing about that research group is it, for the first time at the age of thirty five, when I first started working with that research group, I met my first ever fellow victim of domestic homicide, apart from my brother, obviously.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Um, the, the tangible impact that peer support can make, you know, and, and the advocacy that that brings, and just the sense of relief that, ah shit, I'm not alone in this, you know, someone else has been through this. And I mean, I got that a lot from Grant, and Grant gets that from me as well. But someone external to us that has been through this and can understand, because one of the biggest things is you carry the trauma with you for life, and it shows up in the most strangest of ways.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And, you know, like, I had a mate over the other day, and he said, oh, I notice you're always back your car in to the driveway. And I said, yeah, uh, I can't, I can't sleep if it's not backed in, because I need to be able to make a quick exit, you know?

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  The weirdest things.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, like, it just the weirdest little bizarre behaviours, um, you know, that that kind of show up. Um, and, and, I mean, I could talk, you know, multiple things. This is funny talking to a detective about this, but I hope you haven't still got your cuffs on your back.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  If I caution you, you'd know that you've probably gone too far.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, um, I started, um, this is just really interesting behaviour to kind of examine. I started, you know, those W H Smiths at airports and stuff like, you know, when you're flying around the country, there's a, there's a little shop that kind of has this person standing, standing in the middle, there's nuts and jerky and all this kind of stuff in there and whatever else you can buy that's overpriced and all the rest of it. Um, anyway, I used to go, I started going in there when I started travelling a lot. And I'd kind of go, oh, I really want these, you know, kind of these cashew nuts or whatever it was. Nah, there's a person over there who's on their, on their phone in the, in beyond the register, not really paying attention. I'd just swipe them. I can just swipe them.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And I'll just do it in plain sight, right? And I was just, just started doing things like that. Anyway, I went to my therapist and I said, I'm a bit worried about this behaviour I've started exhibiting. I started stealing nuts and sometimes I branch out into teriyaki beef jerky when I'm really kind of feeling exotic.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Too, too far.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like too far.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Too far, yeah.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Uh, and I said, I really don't want to be a thief, actually.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Because it's, it's typically not good character building, you know, behaviour.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  What insight you have.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, what insight? Anyway, she said to me, what do you feel like when you, um, when you kind of pick up those cashew nuts and you look at that cashier? And I said, well, I always feel like I haven't been seen and heard, you know? And she said, does that ever resonate with you with anything else from your childhood? And I said, you know what? I feel the same that I felt when my father was raping my mother and he was making me watch.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  That I hadn't been seen and heard. And so the fact that I can walk into a W H Smith, you should up your security W H Smith, um, and steal some cashew nuts and not get seen and heard, takes me back to that six year old child of my mother being raped. Now, that, that work of understanding that and unpacking that, right? So anyway, we got to, got to that, that point. And then my therapist said, have you ever tried doing anything else? And I said, oh, maybe I could give, give something else a try. So then I thought, all right, I'm not going to steal nuts anymore or jerky. What I'm going to do is I'm going to, so that that six year old gets seen and heard, what I'm going to do is I'm going to grab the cashew nuts, I'm going to go up to the counter, I'm going

• 53:15Speaker 01

  to say to the person behind the counter, my inner child really wanted to steal these cashew nuts, but I've decided today that I'm going to pay you for them.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  How, how did, how did that go?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  You can imagine the reaction of, of the person behind the counter, like, what the fuck?

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, all right, buddy.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Not really caring either. But for me, what it provided is a real sense of being seen and heard. And I realised that for my entire life and my entire childhood, that's what I was missing. And so it came out when I was like thirty six years old, right? Like,

• 53:53Speaker 00

  I, I, and I, I suppose that's, and you, you referenced and, uh, and gave it the kudos, the professional help that you've got. Because to unpack that, you're not going to come that to that conclusion on your own.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a group of support, uh, there's a peer network that joke about this with, with, we joke about this with each other, that, um, you don't come to conclusions like that with your ten free sessions provided by victims of crime.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, well, that's.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Like, it takes years of work to get to that kind of revelation.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  And you, you've got to go in there with the right attitude and really want to, uh, want to progress from it. But, uh, yeah, that's, uh, well, you, you're carrying so many, uh, so many different things. But with your nursing, and again, another, another quote from you, but I, I just found it interesting, because I, I think it's important. And you might say nursing, I, I say policing is important in this regard, too. Students can learn to nurse solely from a textbook. And I find they really enjoy the empathetic and personalised approach I take drawing on my life experience to challenge them and help them excel. So you, you're bringing that into nursing and, and you don't want the nurse when you walk

• 55:09Speaker 00

  into, yeah, uh, if you're in a hospital, that's where most people come into contact with nurses. You don't want someone just going through the processes. You want someone that really, yeah, has a concern, has, is caring and got that empathy.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I think, I mean, often my students get really frustrated with me because they, I, I, I give them a concept and I then expand on it using kind of lived experience and whatever else. And I'm sure you, that you've done the same over your career.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  And they, they're kind of flicking through their textbook going, where is this written? What page number is this?

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and, and there were just some things you cannot learn from, from textbooks. And, and empathy is, is one of them, right? Uh, you just, you just cannot, it, it's, it's, it's a learned thing through action and through being and through bringing a very vulnerable version of yourself. And I like to bring that into all of my interactions in the classroom and workshops or whatever it is. If I can demonstrate vulnerability with someone, that leans into empathy with them and it, it leans into connection more than anything else. And I think that's the, that's the key with anyone is, is like, when, when someone's in their most vulnerable space, whether they've been through a domestic homicide, whether they've been through a, you know, a car accident, whether they're in with lung cancer, whatever

• 56:27Speaker 01

  it might be. If you can lean into that vulnerable space in yourself and give a little bit of yourself so that they give a little bit of themselves back, then you've got shared connection. And I think that's what we're all searching for, right? Like, it's, it's, no, again, not rocket science, but we, we overcomplicate this life thing. Um, and this kind of, you know, connection is, is, is all that we're looking for.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I think that's, uh, that's a way of, uh, dealing with all the traumas that you go through life. If you've got that connection, it helps, you can share that, share that pressure, share, share those emotions. Um, with the, uh, Alana Madeleine Foundation, that started on the back of the, uh, the horrific situation that occurred down in, uh, in Tasmania with the Port Arthur massacre. And it, it came from there. You explained, uh, how you became involved in, uh, in the foundation, what, what sort of stuff are the foundation doing these days? And what, what are the important things that we can take away from it?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, um, Grant and I, as I said, we were one of the first care recipients of the, what is called the Children Ahead Programme, uh, now. So Children Ahead Programme provides intensive therapy for, um, and, and support services for children, um, and case management for children who've experienced family violence, domestic homicide, um, and, and so forth. So we do phenomenal work in the space of supporting children to thrive, um, in a situation that they would otherwise, you know, kind of be in dire straits and, and, and lean into or go down a path that, um, that they might regret later. So we do a whole lot of phenomenal work in that space. Look, one of the programmes that

• 58:09Speaker 01

  I really love to champion with the foundation is the Buddy Bag Programme.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Um, so eleven thousand children, um, are removed every year from a violent home in Australia. Um, each of those eleven thousand children, um, have access to a backpack that, um, and often these children are moved in the middle of the night, um, as well. So, you know, someone perpetuates something, the police come in, they remove the children, they put them into foster care, or they put them into protective custody with the mum, whatever. Those children have access to a backpack that provides a tangible kind of resource for them. So it has, you know, a teddy bear, it has pyjamas, it has toothpaste and a toothbrush. Um, it gives them a backpack to carry their things. You know, one of the

• 58:54Speaker 01

  things that, that I, talking about trauma, um, I started collecting suitcases a couple of years ago. And, uh, I thought to myself, spending so much bloody money on suitcases, why? Uh, I had a cupboard full of them. Marketplace was always great to buy a suitcase off Ashton, um, because I had so many of them and I could never find the right one. So I kept buying all these suitcases anyway. Through, through some really good therapy, I've discovered that the suitcase issue for me, finding the right one is because I didn't have a backpack when I left home. So our belongings were shoved into a garbage bag by the Department of Human Services, right? And we were taken to foster care.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Um, now, when I travel, I want the right case, the right colour, the right height, how it feels when I roll it, all of those things that I never had the option. So the capacity and the agency that that suitcase gives me is what these backpacks give to the children that receive them now. And that's what I love about the foundation is it gives children agency and capacity to build and support them through life. And I think, you know, that's this, that's one of the most empowering things you can do for someone in that situation.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  What a great idea, because you can imagine how, how scared and traumatic it is for children being, you know, removed from the homes and having a little thing like that distracts them. I've owned something, I've got something. What a, what a great, uh, great thing to be promoting.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  One of the fondest memories that I have is receiving some brand new bedding in our first foster home from the foundation. Now, we left home, we didn't have a, we didn't have our own dooners, all the rest of it. Just having that, that dooner and that dooner cover pillow, pillowcase that was ours. It was from the foundation, some people that we trusted, and it was ours to take with us wherever we went. You know, that, that's one of the best memories that I have of foster care.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  How, if, if people want to support the foundation, how can they get in contact or, or reach out?

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Uh, amf.org.au is the best way. Uh, a buddy bag costs fifty eight dollars, um, to, to generate, um, and to create. So fifty eight bucks is not a, not a huge ask and I don't, I don't come on this podcast to ask for a tangible dollar amount, but just to, just to make it tangible for people so that they can understand the, the impact that a small amount can have.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Um, you know, sixty bucks these days is, is probably what you, you spend on milk and bread, you know? It costs a living.

• 1:01:24Speaker 00

  The, the difference, the difference you can make it, make a life in.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Okay, we'll find out a little bit about you. You've got your obsession with travel bags. Um, I, I don't want to say this on, on, uh, yeah, on the podcast, so do I. I love travel bags. I, I, it's like a candy store for me walking past and I, I see a, a, a, travel bags going there. And I've got the ones for travel bags for every type of place I could be going.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, mate. Yeah, it's, it, you've got to have, you know, I mean, and it, it's now just, it's one of those things. I laugh, I have a little chuckle in my head every time I buy something.

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, but I, I, I just think, oh, when's this going to end up on marketplace? The next, to replace the next one.

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  Well, I, I keep them. I just, and you, you can put the smaller ones in the bigger ones and you can keep quite a lot of travel bags. Just a little tip. But anyway, we get, uh, we go off track. I'm interested in the children's book you were talking about too. Um, what does Ella need? What, what was the title of it?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  What Ellie Needs Now?

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Uh, is, is our children's book that homicide at home, um, University of Melbourne project team have developed, um, and released this year. Um, so it, it talks through, it talks through intimate partner homicide, um, and the impact on, uh, from a child's perspective. And it gives people the language to use with children. So it's in a, it's in a format and a, a language that children as, as young as kind of five, six can understand. Um, and, you know, when we were creating this book, one of the things that I really wanted to do was empower someone and give back to someone or give someone the opportunity to explain to someone like Grant,

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  who was six at the time, what had happened and what had transpired and, and where to from here, you know? Um, and, and what it talks about is the, the beauty of kind of that, that you're not alone. Um, it uses the, the narrative as rhino beetles because rhino beetles are the strongest beetle. They can carry, uh, I think it's two thousand times their body weight.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Um, and so someone who's been through intimate partner violence, um, is carrying the weight of, you know, two thousand of themselves essentially. So, um, we wanted to recognise that aspect. Um, but we wanted to give people a tangible kind of resource that they can rely on in times when someone's been through, um, intimate partner homicide or there's been an intimate partner homicide in the home. So, and there's, there's another book by the Beetle Collective called Life After Intimate Partner Homicide that goes along with that resource and explains the stories that, um, that fuelled the development of what Ellie needs now and how to use the resource. So, um, that's, that's available for download, the National Library, um, free, um, resource available. Um, you can download that from the National Library, so.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Is there any, any other stuff from the research you're doing with this, uh, this group that you find interesting? Or what, what, what are some of the key points that you've discovered?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Huge amount, mate. Um, one, I think one of the biggest thing is the impact of connectedness and, and what it, what it leads into. So, you know, as I said, at thirty five, I met my first other person, other human being who'd been through intimate partner homicide as a child. Um, and for me, that was like lightbulb moments, like, you do this? Wait, I do that too. You know, that, that's, to be able to have those kind of conversations, um, means so much to someone who's been, who's spent a life kind of analysing their life and wondering why it is they do these certain things and these behaviours. So the connectedness, the development of resources for children.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  I mean, as we said before, domestic violence is a, is a national problem. It's a, it's a national issue that we need to address. And so we're hoping that this research will just provide some insight for lawmakers and, uh, to influence government and policy around intimate partner homicide and some of the domestic violence laws and so forth that are coming. So. But I think most of all, um, it's strengthening community resources for people who experience, uh, domestic and, and family violence. So, you know, um, bringing in awareness to it, having really vulnerable conversations like this and, and having open and honest conversations and, and sharing our research in a way

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  that give people the opportunity to have those conversations. So what, what is trauma informed and, and what does that mean for someone who's experienced intimate partner violence or intimate partner homicide, you know? Because all these words kind of float around and, and they don't have a great deal of meaning unless you've got the knowledge or know-how of how to use them. So if one of the, one of the great articles, uh, that we published in, in the Age, actually, it was published in the Age, um, written by a brilliant, uh, journalist called Cassandra Morgan, was, uh, you can't ask that.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Because, uh, you know, a little bit of a play on the SBS show, that's, uh, you can't, you can't ask that. But, um, because we want you to ask, you know, that curiosity lens, um, opens up kind of connectedness. Um, and it's, it's really, um, important for us to kind of drive that message home. So a lot of, a lot of work to come. Um, it's, it's often painful. Um, and it's, it's often really hard to get to the kind of nuances and the, the crux of all the things that are happening. And, and there's a whole lot of emotion involved as well, right? Because we're dealing with people who, who have experienced domestic violence, plus you're carrying it yourself.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Um, so then to make that into a tangible impact for other people is a whole nother layer. Um, and it takes a whole lot of work. So, um, you know, that's, that's, but it's really important work that we're doing. And, um, I'm so, I'm so privileged to be a part of that work.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, full, full credit to you. What do you think your mum, looking at the man you have become now and, and Grant would be, uh, looking at you? What would she think of what you've made of your life?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Um, oh, look, I don't even know how to answer that question, to be honest. Um, I, there are some days I kind of think, jeez, I hope she's not looking now.

• 1:07:48Speaker 00

  We all do, we all do stupid shit. Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Um, but I do think, um, mum would be very proud that she hasn't been forgotten and that she lives on within both Grant and I every single day. Um, I think, um, I think she'd be quietly surprised, to be honest, um, that we have turned into, um, the, the flourishing human beings that, um, that she could have only have aspired us to be, um, as children. So, but, um, I, I would like to say, and, and she would be very surprised, um, at that, but she shouldn't be because of the person that she was. Um, and I, I think that's, that's what's underlined kind of, or under, uh, the underlying kind of factors of this

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  is that she lives on in us and, and that's what has given us all this strength and capacity, um, is her, is her being.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  Most definitely. She, I, I'd suggest she'd be extremely proud and I think it shows that she's done her role as a parent in the short time that she had, because I think the most important role a parent can do is set their children up to, uh, live a good productive life and point them in the right direction. And, uh, and your, your mum's done that. And, you know, you speaking about it is testament to, uh, the way, way she raised you and the person you've become.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that I always, it always comes up around Mother's Day for me. Um, you know, always a, a challenging time, obviously, but one of the things that I'm reminded on Mother's Day is that I had fifteen years of someone who genuinely loved me and cared for me.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Some children are not as lucky as that, you know? Um, and I, I'm blessed that I had a mum for fifteen years who gave everything, um, ultimately her life for us. So, yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  Well, look, we'll, we'll wrap it up here, but thank you so much for telling your story. You've, yeah, inspirational is a word that, uh, yeah, should be used when we're talking about, uh, the way that you've told, told your story and, and what you've done with your life. And I hope you can accept that without sort of batting it away. Um, it, it's quite, quite amazing. You should be very proud of, of what you've done and, uh, how you've done it. It just sort of blows me away and I mean that all, with all sincerity.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary. I actually really enjoyed our chat today. So it's, um, it's been a, been a lovely, um, conversation. I really appreciate you inviting me on.

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you keep, keep up the good work and, uh, let's stay in touch.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary. Appreciate it.

• 1:10:14Speaker 00

  Cheers.