The day my dad killed my mum: Ashton Kline Pt. 1

When Ashton Kline was 15, his mother Viola was murdered by his father. Ashton sits down with Gary Jubelin to share what led up to that day on the 27th of September, 2000, growing up walking on eggshells, the brief nine months of peace after his father left, and how in a single afternoon he had to step into an adult role to look after his chronically ill six year old brother Grant. He talks about the promise he made to his mum: "No matter what, I will always look after Grant". Building his own toolkit for recovery from trauma, and why sharing their story now gives purpose to his mum's loss. This is Ashton's story of survival, brotherhood, and responsibility beyond his years. Find out more about The Alannah & Madeline Foundation here. https://www.alannahandmadeline.org.au/ Find out more about What Ally Needs Now, a children's book created by Ashton and researchers at The University of Melbourne to help children navigate grief after fatal family violence here https://outcomes.org.au/order-the-book/?prev_bc=66353. If you or someone you know has experienced domestic, family or sexual violence, you can call 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732, text 0458 737 732 or visit 1800respect.org.au https://1800respect.org.au/ for online chat and video call services. You can watch I Catch Killers on Youtube here. https://www.youtube.com/@ICatchKillers-Podcast Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram:@icatchkillers https://www.instagram.com/icatchkillers/?hl=enTiktok:@icatchkillerspodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@icatchkillerspodcastFacebook:@icatchkillers https://www.facebook.com/icatchkillers/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  When Ashton Klein was just 15, his father murdered his mother, Viola, dousing her in petrol and setting her alight. It was the culmination of years of domestic violence against Ashton, his mum and his six-year-old brother Grant. Today, Ashton speaks openly about what happened inside his family home and how he turned this unimaginable trauma into a force for good. This is a truly remarkable story, but I think a content warning is appropriate in the circumstances. Ashton Klein, welcome to I Catch Killers.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary. It's a pleasure to be here.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for making the time. And I know what we're talking about is very heavy and would dig up a lot of emotions for you. But I think there's a strong message, as we were saying the other day, there's a strong message that comes out from it too. So hopefully we can explore that. But I have seen, time and time again, working in homicide, where people have experienced unimaginable trauma, how they find their feet afterwards. And it always amazes me, like, how do you process what you've been through in your life and still stand here? And, you know, before we start the podcast, we're sitting there having a joke about things.

• 2:08Speaker 00

  How do you find the happiness when you've experienced such darkness?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, it's a question I get asked a lot and something that I sometimes struggle to answer with. But the older I get, the more I kind of begin, I think, to understand what the recipe was for me for success in finding my feet. Because I don't prescribe to the notion that there is one-size-fits-all approach to recovery from trauma. But what I do kind of prescribe to is that at times in life, you can find a recipe that works for you. And that recipe needs sometimes some adjustments and sometimes some fine tuning. And, you know, a little bit of a pinch of salt here and a little bit of sugar here and all the rest of it to make it a little bit sweeter or souly.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  But and it's a constant kind of, not a battle, but a shift in that recipe and how you kind of balance out the flavours, I guess, of life. So, you know, at certain points in my life, trauma hits me unimaginably without me even knowing. And I'll kind of go, all right, I'm in one of those dark spaces again. What is it that I have in my toolkit that I've built over the last 25 years that I can kind of pull out again and use in this moment? Is it that I need to shut down completely for a day and just clear the books and just have nothing happen? Or is it that I need to tap into, you know, a really good psychologist? You know, I've been working with a psychologist now

• 3:40Speaker 01

  for a consistent psychologist for the last seven years. And I don't think it's until kind of the last two years that I've actually started to really process some of the trauma that happened from my childhood. I think it's also being, I liked, some people call it obnoxious, but I like to think of it as audaciously authentic. You know, you can't, you can't take yourself too seriously. But also, you know, you just have to be you and you have to kind of acknowledge that you're going to sit with this uncomfortable trauma for the rest of your life. It's never going to go away. It gets a little easier to sit with and hold, but it never ever goes away.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  And I think it's only when I've tried to fight that feeling of, you know, the emotions and all of the traumatic instances that have kind of occurred over my life, when I've tried to fight that, that's when I've been at my worst. And I think it's only when I've kind of learned that, hey, I've really got to learn how to hold this really difficult mass and this really difficult pain in my life, that I've kind of then reached a point where I've gone, okay, I can move forward and at least stand, you know? And I think that's, that's the only thing that works is you've got to take it as it comes, acknowledge that no two days are ever going to be the same. And you are continually going to be put back in that place of being a six-year-old child

• 5:05Speaker 01

  or a 15-year-old child that was traumatised consistently throughout your life. And it's never going to leave you. So, I mean, no, no one-size-fits-all. There's no magic, you know, solution. There's no book. I've tried to read them all. But there are, there is a recipe that works for me. And, you know, part of that is holding myself to account, but also acknowledging what I need and putting my needs first. Not easy for someone who comes from a domestic violence, violence background. So, you know, but the key in learning to put yourself first

• 5:48Speaker 01

  and your needs first is really important, I think.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Well, just in that answer, that it shows how much thought has gone into it, how you're dealing with your situation. And I like what you say about the toolbox or a toolkit, that something that works for you. I think that's a good way of describing. The thing that might work for you might not necessarily work for someone else. The other thing, and this is just my observation, looking at people dealing with the trauma is that it gets to a point where they realise they're entitled to enjoy something in life. And like, I've seen people at the worst possible situations in their life, when there's a knock on the door and a loved one's been murdered. And I'm sure at that point in time,

• 6:34Speaker 00

  they can't even envisage ever smiling again or laughing. What I've seen over the years is, and I watch it, I observe it, that people that have been affected by severe trauma, the type of thing that homicide creates, you see gradually it breaking down where they allow themselves the opportunity to find some joy in life and find a little bit of lightness there. I think that's a, that's a stepping stone.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And I think, look, you're absolutely right. One of the biggest things for me has been rebuilding my self-worth and gaining a sense of self-identity. Because one of the things that I grew up with was, one, you had to tiptoe on eggshells around dad. And mum was always so busy worrying about protecting us that she never had time to give us, she gave us a lot of love, but she never had the time or energy to actually invest in us as well. So I grew up thinking that I wasn't good enough, that I, you know, I had a lot of shame around the things that I witnessed and wasn't able to protect my mum from.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I had a lot of shame around my own kind of actions in those moments and how I responded as a five, six-year-old. And what that did is it degraded over time, my sense of worth. Add to that, I had a father who continually told me that I wasn't good enough and that I wasn't a man and that I would never be a man. So when you grow up in an environment like that, that really challenges the fact that you're even worthy of being a human being, it is really hard to grapple with the fact that you're actually entitled to be and live a normal life, you know, and to be a human being in this world. That takes a lot of work to build back and a lot of intentional and deliberate work.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And I think that's kind of the key is that when you decide that you want to change or break the cycle, it has to be intentional and has to be deliberate.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  I'd like to think, and maybe there wasn't, but was there any good memories from your childhood? And just put it in perspective, you were fifteen at the time that your mother was murdered by your father, you had a six-year-old, uh, old brother. Was there any uh, good memories that you can take away from your, your childhood?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, um, again, it's taken a long time to, to bring those through, um, you know, like, and I've had to, I've had to really kind of, um, siphon through the, cause, cause prominently, when you, when you experience domestic violence and, and domestic homicide, what happens is those memories take precedence in your mind. So they, they're at the forefront, right? So you think, well, okay, I can remember my father kind of dragging my mother down or coming home drunk and, and feeling that someone had been in the house, um, and then spontaneously just erupting into a violent rage and dragging my mother by the throat down a dirt driveway, um, and then coming back into the house and holding a knife to my throat, um, you know,

• 9:39Speaker 01

  at the age of five. Um, I can remember clutching a teenage mutant ninja turtle under the bed, wanting protection from my father, you know, thinking that, um, some magical way the teenage mutant ninja turtle, Donatello, was going to protect me. But, but I vividly remember that. So, you know, those, those memories, um, don't, they, they sit at the forefront because they're, they're kind of the biggest things, you know, especially as a child, you're forming all these kind of memories and so forth. Um, but I have some, some really beautiful memories of, you know, spending time with my mum. I have some, some beautiful times, um, even spending time with my dad. You know, I've had to, as I say, sift through the, the

• 10:22Speaker 01

  bad to get to some of the good, like, and there's even a separation of the moments. Like, one of the things my dad did with me, he used to take me on the, he was a truck driver, he used to take me on the trucks with him. I would love being in the truck and being on the road and getting the CB radio and kind of speaking to all the truckies and stuff like that. But then we would pull up into a truck stop and he would sexually assault me, you know, and, and that, so, so I've had to separate, well, okay, one minute we're driving along the Hume Highway, talking to truckies about, you know, uh, the meat wagons heading south, you know, that's how they refer to, to ambulances and so forth. And then the next minute, I'm being sexually assaulted with pornography in the, in the cab of the truck and, and so

• 11:06Speaker 01

  forth, you know, like it, um, but, but in order to kind of gain some value from my childhood and some kind of value from my parental, you know, figure of my father, I've had to kind of separate those as saying, well, okay, he was still the dad that took me with him on the truck, you know, he's, he's, um, you know, and he still let me play with that CB radio and, and all the rest of it. So just to grapple with something that, to grasp, you know, some kind of tangible relationship and to believe that inherently he loved me, you know, because ultimately what we're all seeking in life is, is, is love and, and, you know, um, that's, that's really hard to grapple with when someone treats you like that.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Well, um, yeah, it's just the, the, the things that you experience and, and the, the way that you're processing it just sort of blow, uh, well, it blows, it blows me away. Let's, uh, let's talk a bit about your, your mum, uh, the, the type of person your mum was, cause, uh, she was, uh, killed in the most violent of ways at the hands of, uh, your, your father. But tell us a bit about your, your mum, because I, I, to me, my observation and, and in the discussions that we've had and the research that I've looked at, she was an exceptional lady.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  She really was. I mean, not only for just enduring, um, the, the violence that she did for the sake of us children. I mean, that in itself, uh, for 20 years, um, to endure the violence and, um, tolerate it because she knew that she couldn't financially support us, um, children. That in itself, I think is a, um, phenomenal thing to recognise, um, her character, the strength of her character and enduring all of that. But I like to think that, um, I mean, I kind of curse her because she gave me curls. I straighten my hair every day as a result of, of the curls that she gave me. So this, you're seeing.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Ashton, I respect you, but have a look, have a look at my head. We've all got, we've all got things we've got to deal with.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  We've all got things, right? But, so every morning I stand in the mirror and I curse her because she gave me her curls. Um, but, but some of the best things, the, the relational aspects that I have with people, um, the things that she taught me about love, about kindness, about being sincere, about being authentic and genuine, they all come from her, um, you know, and, and, and the strength to continue, I believe, came from her as well because, you know, no matter how many times she got beaten, she, she was raped so many times in front of me that, that I lost count. Um, my, my father used to kind of, uh, he would have this power thing where he would come home in a, in a drunk rage and he would say

• 13:51Speaker 01

  to me, I'm going to make you a man. And he would make me watch, um, him rape my mother in front of me as a five, six-year-old.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Um, and, you know, the amount of times that, that she endured that in itself just, just gives so much strength to her character and, and speaks volumes. You know, the, the funny thing is, we grew up in a really poor fa- uh, situation. Like, we lived kind of week to week. My mum, she had this beautiful honesty about her where people trusted her inherently, you know, and, um, I remember, uh, they, they separated nine months before her murder and, um, dad took all the, the power tools, uh, you know, the, the whipper snipper, the lawnmower, all the rest of it, that kind of was his, his stuff. And, uh, and I was kind of then responsible for the lawns and so forth. To make my job easier, she got

• 14:42Speaker 01

  a, a brand new whipper snipper on credit. Um, you know, just walked into the shop and said, look, you know, I, I can't afford this, we really need it. Um, and the, the guys just said, yeah, look, give us 20 bucks a week and pay this off. Um, I remember that because when she was murdered, the, uh, the shop contacted us and said, look, you don't have to, she's only paid a hundred and 20 bucks or something so far, and she was paying it off on a fortnightly basis, but you're welcome to keep it, you know?

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Um, and, and I just, what came through for that and what I've kind of learnt from that is, is she had this kind of, um, trustworthiness about her that just kind of shone through without you even knowing. So the fact that, you know, she could walk into a, a Husqvarna shop and, and say, look, I need a whipper snipper, um, and then them to say, look, you know, take the $400 whipper snipper and, and pay it off at 20 bucks a week, just, just really represented her character. And I think the trust that she had in the community. Um, she was friendly with everyone, um, you know, loved everyone. When that nine months,

• 15:48Speaker 01

  that nine-month period where they separated, she kind of found a, a real purpose in herself and started to rebuild her own self-worth in a way. She started inviting people around to the house and she had some female friends that she, she wasn't allowed to hang around with or, or, you know, um, have around when dad was around. And that was just really beautiful to see, you know, she really blossomed during that period, um, and, and really flourished. And I think that's, that's ultimately what culminated in her, in her death, um, at the hands of my father.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, there, there's so many, uh, platitudes that you could say about your mum. Um, I, I think the most remarkable thing is, uh, how you've turned out and, uh, that, yeah, you go into the melting pot of, uh, you're raised by your mother and father. I'm, I'm not saying that your father taught you a lot of, uh, lot of values, but something's come through and, uh, so we attribute that to your, your mum. And, uh, I'm sure she's very proud of you, uh, what, what you've become, the man that you've become now.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  And I think, I think Gary, one of the things for me, um, is I've always tried to, and it's one of the things I had great difficulty in foster care, growing up in foster care, because I've always tried to, um, instill in both Grant Nye and, and keep in Grant Nye, an element of mum alive, you know, and it's why we didn't fit in foster care and why we had so much challenges, so many challenges in foster care, um, is that we weren't mouldable really, because I was trying to retain some of the values and some of the, you know, the real kind of grip on to, I guess, in a, in a tangible way, some of the attributes of my mum, um, during that foster care. And it made it really difficult for foster carers because they just wanted us to fit into their family and, and kind of just be, you know,

• 17:35Speaker 01

  and here I am going, no, no, that's not what our mum would do. I want to do it this way.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can imagine there would have been some, uh, some conflict. Um, your, your mother and father's upbringing, did that play a part in the people they became?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  The older I get and the more I understand about my mother and father's history, the more I understand how the dynamics of their relationship, you know, kind of came to be. Um, so my mother and father were both from large families, my mother from a, a family of 16 children. Um, and so this is the, uh, 1951 mum was born. So, you know, the, the 50s and 60s.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Uh mum from a family of sixteen, dad from a family of fifteen, um both really kind of poor, uh you know, circumstances, impoverished circumstances, um both ended up losing siblings and at times themselves being put into uh what what I can only describe as kind of homes, I guess, so children's homes and care, um and uh and my father in particular, um so so my mother, well, my mother experienced uh domestic violence and rape from her father.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Um so had a sexual uh assault background with with her father and uh you know, my father then went in or or he when he was growing up went into many boys' homes and was sexually assaulted as well and was the uh victim of uh violence in those homes. And I mean, you know, in the sixties, I guess.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, just uh and everyone turned turned a blind eye to it and uh yeah.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. So he he kind of grew up a fairly rough childhood, my mother also, um but but she kind of pulled her life together, I guess, that's probably where I get my strength, to be honest, is is she kind of pulled her life together. She got a job waitressing uh the age of fifteen and started to build a life and that's when she met my father. Um she was married at the age of seventeen.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Uh and uh and they kind of uh got married as a result of that. And the the older I get and the more reading I do and the more research I do into domestic and family violence and sexual assault and and rape and and all of those, you know, those really big kind of phenomenas um and crimes, the more I understand that the dynamics of the people that come together really fuels quite a lot of that. Not to say that it's anyone's fault, um but the the backgrounds of the people that are come together in those kind of relationships feeds kind of a symbiosis, you know, in a way that my father, you know,

• 20:19Speaker 01

  coming from a a really angry kind of background of having been abused in a boy's home and lost his power and so forth, really fought and I could I could see it right through my childhood, really fought for a sense of power and belonging. Um and my mother felt a sense of control in being a victim, you know, in in a way that that kind of allowed for her to attempt to control my father's behaviour for so long, you know, that that her sense of kind of control was being in an uncontrollable environment. Um and I think that's true for a lot of victims, um that that they've kind of grown up or they've

• 20:59Speaker 01

  had experiences with domestic and family violence, really, um you know, kind of chaotic environments that you have to walk on eggshells with and their sense of control comes from a sense that they may be able to change that person or they may be able to control the next situation that occurs. And I think that's what brings a lot of perpetrators with a lot of victims together in this. And and I, you know, I I mean, I I I'm not an expert, um it's just what I've learnt, you know, and what I've seen.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Well, it's it's very complex what you're you're talking about, but anecdotally, I'd say that you you're on the money. Quite often, you you see that someone that's grown up in uh yeah, as a child in a domestic violence relationship, end up with the uh in that same environment as an adult. So.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  I I'm I'm sure it plays a part and and that type of trauma, that type of environment has an impact. Uh uh as, yeah, you described right at the start, you you carry that with you the whole whole way through your life.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  I spend a lot of my adult life um thinking to myself, just whatever you do, don't be your father, you know, uh it's constantly there. The voice is there and and I can't imagine, I I have constraint, I have understanding, but I have more importantly, a curiosity about it and and I I'm willing to explore that. For someone like my father, who was not in tune with it, was not willing to engage with it, um and not willing to explore it with a curi-, I mean, words like curiosity were not even around, you know, in this, you know, can you imagine someone sitting in the seventies and saying, now, let's let's be curious about your childhood here. Uh you know, like, it just, it, I wasn't around,

• 22:43Speaker 01

  but it didn't, it didn't exist, I'm sure, or the the level of therapy and psychotherapy that is available now. Um but through that lens of curiosity, I've I've been able to kind of go, okay, well, what is it that I'm feeling right now and why is it that I'm feeling like that and where does that come from? Um and and I can sit with it, you know, uncomfortably sit with it, but still sit with it. And I think that's important, you know, I don't I don't kind of break out into anger or anything like that. And I think that's really important to to kind of um for for me to to kind of understand and for me to kind of grow from that and go, this is breaking the cycle, you know, being curious about it and understanding it and understanding the driving points is the is the breaking the cycle for me.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Well, it allows that emotional regulation that uh yeah, is so so important uh in in dealing with uh situations. And I think the fact that, yeah, two men like us are sitting here talking about this now, uh probably, yeah, twenty years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation. People would be going, what are these these two people talking about? But uh yeah, the complexities of it and the cycle that continues, it it is so so complex. Your your brother, Grant, he came into your uh came into your world. I I picked up on something that you're a little bit jealous that someone came in and took your uh took your attention away.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  My top spot, mate, yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Well, I and I think, you know, that that kind of comes from the fact that um there wasn't much attention to go around, you know, um there there uh so that there was there was dad who was preoccupied with uh sleeping with other women and, you know, um, you know, violently assaulting my mum and me and uh and there wasn't much love around. Um, you know, mum was, as I say, tiptoeing on eggshells. And then the way that they attempted to resolve their their conflict was to have another child. Um and uh, you know, I I think, um, yeah, there was definitely some some jealousy there. I thought this this and and particularly because Grant has Grant has end stage kidney disease, he developed it when

• 24:54Speaker 01

  he was eighteen months old. So his level of attention, uh the required attention when he was a child, there was a lot of focus on him and his healthcare needs. Um so then there was, uh you know, as I've come to understand it, you know, there was there was Ashton um at at kind of fifteen, uh you know, kind of going, well, where's where am I in this zoo, you know, like, uh where do I sit and where's my attention? So so I did a whole lot of, you know, horrible stuff, you know, like, um not not, uh but I I kind of demanded my mum's attention, you know, on a on a few occasions and things like that. I demanded the most expensive of things that were not affordable and all the rest of it. I just

• 25:36Speaker 01

  did the typical kind of teenage, uh, you know, selfishness thing or the the, I think from probably about twelve or so, I can kind of remember that kind of behaviour. Um, you know, I want the best of everything, um because I don't get any attention. Um, look at woe is me, you know? And there's Grant, there's Grant suffering with kidney disease, you know? Um but uh low and behold, um Grant's the best thing that's ever happened to me in in terms of my life. And and, you know, you asked me earlier what what I think the thing is that's gotten me through. And to be honest, um it's our brotherhood.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Oh, that that's another layer of this story that I I think will uh just blow people away and probably bring tears to people's eyes, the the love and the bond that you two have have got. When you you say the kidney disease, this uh, yeah, severely impacted on on the way he could live his life, do you want to for people who are not familiar with the disease, the type of thing?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  So so interestingly, um my father's uh wish to donate a kidney ultimately resulted in my mother's murder. So they were um.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Grant was, Grant was five at the time and he developed kidney disease at the age of 18 months old, was born with it, but it progressed to end stage kidney disease at the age of kind of 18 months old, where he had, he was symptomatic. He was about to commence peritoneal dialysis, which is a, a form of renal replacement therapy. His kidneys were insufficiently kind of functioning. My mother and father were tested as donors and my mother was the preferred donor because my father had a cyst on his kidneys. And he remained adamant that he should be the one to donate a

• 27:26Speaker 01

  kidney to Grant as, as his right as a father and his, his duty as a father. And so the fact that my mother was the preferred donor, his argument in court was that he wanted to donate a kidney to Grant and she was preventing him from doing that, which is pretty bloody hard to hear and, and pretty hard for Grant to grapple with as well. So I, I can't imagine what that's like. But, but ultimately mum's murder resulted in burns to 99% of her body. She, she died on

• 28:07Speaker 01

  that day, the 27th of September 2000. And that resulted in Grant then enduring a life of dialysis. He's had two cadaveric donors, two, two donations from cadaveric donors. Both of, both kidneys that he's received have failed and he's now 33 years old, having lived almost 25 years on dialysis now and, and will be for the remainder of his life now as a result of that.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  It's, well, it adds to the complexity of what's gone on in the, in the family. And when you, you're talking about the donation and your father, it's that, I don't know, I, I don't know him, but I know that, know the type and what you've described. It's that macho bullshit. I'm the man, I'll, I'll supply the kidney. Yeah. It's just ridiculous.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  There was a, there was a happy period in, in your life, that, that nine months or the nine months where you, you moved out from the, the family home. But that was on the back of your father threatening your life with, with a knife. Tell, tell us about that incident and then what that resulted in.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  The most, the most bizarre of evenings, that evening, I, as I said, we, we didn't have the most luxurious of homes. In fact, our home was infested with cockroaches. So I'd often find them in, in my room and I, my dad had been out that day, he'd had a few drinks, but, but ultimately, whenever we were in the home, we kind of had to keep our voice down. He complained of migraines all the time and hearing things and all the rest of it. And so we, we were always told to be quiet. I, I was about nine o'clock at night and I remember seeing a cockroach in my room and I thought, all right, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get this sucker. And I, as I walked to the cupboard

• 30:01Speaker 01

  to get the fly spray out of my room to the kitchen cupboard to get the fly spray, I just muttered, I'm gonna kill you, you bastard. And, and suddenly I was thrown up against a wall without me knowing from behind. My father came from behind, grabbed me, spun me around, put his hands around my neck, pushed me up against a wall and then grabbed a knife out and threatened to kill me. And he'd obviously in his mind thought that I was saying to him, I'm gonna kill you, you bastard or so. I don't, I don't really understand, you know, what had happened, but in his mind, you know, here's this kind of 15 year old guy who, you know, has taken his beatings all his life and suddenly he's

• 30:45Speaker 01

  gonna revolt against him. I didn't, you know, I don't know how that kind of came up in his mind. But anyway, that resulted in probably the bravest act my mum's ever kind of committed really. And that, that is that she finally made the decision to go through the court system, get a restraining order against my father. He, he never returned to our home, our rented home and he moved a few streets away and he had a, a kind of restraining order of 200 metres or whatever it was. But we had a really, I can just remember returning from the police station and him not being there and

• 31:25Speaker 01

  just a sense of calm, you know, like, like we'd just experienced this traumatic night and I'd been to the police station all night and attacking photographs and all the rest of it, you know, but the calm, it was just like, we could talk at a volume that wasn't, you know, gonna set someone off, you know, we could, that whole nine month period that we had from kind of January right through to September in 2000, there were no eggshells, you know, I could, I could play, play, you know, cars with Grant in the lounge and make as much noise as we wanted. And there wasn't a kind of an upheaval of the whole house and there wasn't walls being smashed in the middle of the

• 32:08Speaker 01

  night and all sorts of things, you know, we'd kind of wake up some nights at 2am and suddenly there was a fist going through the wall, you know, like we'd been waking up with that just because he decided he wanted to get some anger out, you know, or, or we'd hear mum screaming because she was being raped, you know, in the, in the middle of the night. So, so all of that, you know, I don't know if you can imagine kind of growing up in that environment, but, but you'd literally just tiptoeing on eggshells. And then suddenly when all that's gone, wow, the pressure valve just releases and you're like, oh my God, this is what calm is.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  And I could imagine how, how intoxicating that was to you, having peace in a household, because that's, you know, how a household should be. And it was something that was completely foreign to you. So I can imagine that it would have been like a breath of fresh air coming through.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I mean, you know, the, the, for nine months, with that said, the, the house was as calm as it'd ever been. We were laughing, we're joking, you know, we even got away at a five day holiday, you know, unknown, holidays were absolutely unknown to us unless they involved some kind of weird plot around my father, you know, kind of, he, he went up to Queensland one time with us and said, oh yeah, I've got everything organised. We arrived and we, we slept on the beach because we had no, no accommodation, nothing, you know, like, so family holidays were just totally unknown to us. We got away on a houseboat for, for five nights and I remember

• 33:37Speaker 01

  one of the funniest memories I have of my mum is she was absolutely shit scared of, of the, the rocking of boats. And it was only on the Murray River, you know, no, no kind of ocean, you don't take a houseboat in the ocean, obviously, but, but, you know, a speedboat would go past and, and she'd grab her suitcase packet, lay down on the floor with her suitcase packed because the, the boat was rocking, you know. And I thought, I'm not sure how that's gonna save you, but jeez, it was funny. So she was, she was absolutely, but she, she pushed herself out of her comfort zone. Like she was so uncomfortable on that, on that holiday, but because she was in a strange environment and she'd just left a man after 20 years of being beaten and raped and, and all

• 34:20Speaker 01

  the rest of it. But, you know, she was willing to do that for us kids to give us a memory that was kind of tangible. And I think when she passed, one of the things I thought is thank God, we got that, that time, you know, thank God, we, we had that five days away of just blissful, you know, five days in 15 years is, you know, I don't, it's not much, but gosh, it meant the world to us. So.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  As a 15 year old boy, did you think, okay, happy days from here on? Like, like, did you think that the courts, now that we've got, because you would think the police sit up there, the courts and, okay, we've got that in, everything's gonna be fine now, we're, we're safe. Did you, did you?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  I thought mum had the support she needed. Yeah. I thought she had the support that she needed to, to turn things around and to really give us, not, not give us, but, but to support us in a life moving forward, you know. And I thought, I thought, right, it's Grant, mum and I now, we are a, a unit and, and we're a really solid unit. We've got each other's backs and we're gonna be safe. We're, we're gonna be safe. We've got this restraining order that's in place.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  You know, he can't come around. Mind you, we'd wake up and he'd be outside the window, you know, at, at 3am in the morning, you know, kind of, you know, looking at us and, and peering in and just haunting us almost. So, you know, and the, the police were called a number of times and all the rest of it. He'd constantly call the house to make sure that we were home, you know. And ultimately, I, I guess, yeah, I, I genuinely thought things were gonna be different, you know. Yeah. I genuinely thought things were gonna be different.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  We'll, we'll talk about domestic violence in general in, in part, part two and those red flags that you've just talked about and the indicators that something bad was gonna happen. I, I think we're becoming more aware to the situations, but we'll, we'll talk, talk about that later in the podcast. But in regards, how did it escalate to the point, and I know you're reliving a horror situation, but can you tell us about the day that your mum was murdered by, by your dad and what happened on the day?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Look, I've tried to forget, but, but unfortunately I cannot. So it's, it's, it's one of those things, you know, I mean, even when you said, when I said earlier, it's a pleasure to be here, I thought, well, actually it's not, you know, I've been through this horrible thing. But, but it's, it's a, a very vivid memory for me. I specifically remember we, mum had made a new friend in the community. So this, he was an older guy, I think he was maybe about 70 or so and, and mum was 48 at the time. But, but this guy she'd met because he was doing some window repairs at our house on the rental and.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And he, I was really excited. Mum didn't drive, um, and, uh, and so we had no, no vehicle. We had, you know, dad was the only one that kind of drove and took the car, obviously. So we, um, all my friends are kind of going places, you know, every, every weekend and having a lovely life and, and, uh, we were kind of stuck at home, I guess. Um, so twenty seventh of September two thousand, we're planning to go to Beechworth, uh, actually with, with mum's new friend Alan, um, who lovely guy and, and we'd kind of planned this for a couple of weeks. We planned it around Grant's treatment and, and all the rest of it. Um, and I was, I was just really looking forward to being in a car and getting out of, out of the town, to be honest, Caiabrum. And, uh, and I

• 38:07Speaker 01

  thought, ah, I've never been to Beechworth. It really just, you know, nice to go somewhere else. So we're planning that. Um, a few weeks, few weeks kind of before that, um, dad starts kind of calling, saying he really needs to see Grant, uh, on this particular day. Um, and that there's a whole bunch of toys that, uh, that kind of mum needs to come and sort out at, at his caravan. Um, and, um, I remember, remember kind of mum, you know, saying, oh, look, I'll just, I'll just keep the peace and I'll just go around there and, and do it. You know, I'll do it in the morning. We'll get it done in the morning. I'll be quick. Come back. Alan will be here about ten o'clock and then, and then we'll go. Um, and I remember pleading with her, just, just don't, don't give

• 38:52Speaker 01

  in to him. Just, you know, don't do it. Um, no, no, no. She said, look, it's easier if I just, just keep the peace and, uh, and, and make it work. And I'll take Grant around and you'll see Grant and he'll be happier that way and he'll stop calling. And, uh, so she walked out at eight AM and I, I just remember kind of, you know, one last beg of, please don't go, you know, I really kind of don't want you to go. And, and I remember watching her and Grant walk down the street. Um, and, uh, the next thing I know, about an hour later, um, I had a knock on the door, uh, from

• 39:32Speaker 01

  one of the patient services assistants and, and Grant was with her. And, uh, she looked at me and she said, there's been an accident. Um, you've, you've got to come to the hospital. Um, and, and Grant looked at me and he said, I tried Ash. I really tried. Um, and, and I said, you tried, you tried what? And I just gave him a massive hug and, um, he said, I really tried to save her. And, uh, you know, he's, he's only six at this time. And, um, and the patient services assistant said to me, come down to the hospital, you know, just get whatever you need and then come to the hospital. Um, there's been an accident. So, so we got in the car and, and Grant just kept saying,

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I tried. I tr- I really tried. And I, I couldn't work out kind of what, what it was and, and, uh, what had happened. And, um, anyway, we, we got to the hospital and, uh, there was a whole lot of commotion around the hospital. Caiabrum's town of six thousand, um, you know, not many people there. A whole lot of ambulances there. The police were there and, um, I thought, what's going on here? Um, and, uh, got there and the doctor came out and said, uh, your mum's been severely burnt. Um, and, uh, her, her chances of survival, uh, are not good and she likely won't make it. Um,

• 40:53Speaker 01

  and so that's, that's really all that I knew, uh, uh, at that time, you know, I, Grant, Grant, I think was, um, look, he is the strongest human being that I've ever met in my life, um, to be honest. And, um, as a six-year-old, I cannot even begin to imagine how he kept it together that day. He was as rational, uh, more rational than any adult I've ever met in a traumatic situation. Um, and I've, I've, in my time as an ICU nurse and, and all the rest of it, I've little, met a lot of adults who experienced trauma. Um, and, uh, he was the most together,

• 41:34Speaker 01

  um, human being that I've ever met in such a circumstance. Um, he, he told me that he was in playing cars, uh, and he heard a loud bang, um, and then some shouting and some screaming. And then dad came in through the back door, grabbed him, put him in the car and, uh, and then tried to drive off. Uh, he'd forgotten the keys. So Grant saw through the gap of a steel fence that mum was running around the backyard in a ball of fire. Um, and so Grant had the power, um, to

• 42:17Speaker 01

  open the car door and try to reach her with a garden hose through the locked steel fence. Um, and he, he said to me, I kept calling her to come closer because I couldn't get through the gate, Ash. I, I tried.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  I, I can't even imagine what you, you're talking about there. So you've, you've got, uh, Grant at six years of age, seeing his mum, um, running around in a ball of flame and he's trying to ho- hose it down through a small hole in a steel fence with a, uh, a, a garden hose and asking her to come closer. Like, uh, just, it's horrific.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, and then, uh, the, the notion that he felt he needs to apologize to, to me, to, to say I just couldn't save her, you know? Um, and then, and then he recounted for me, um, he said, oh, I, I called the police and I, I called the ambulance and I called the fire brigade.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  Um, what a little hero.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  I said, mate, I, I cannot even believe that. The little, little funny side story to this, um, that really kind of represents our, our brotherhood, I guess, is Grant and I, you know, in the, in the nine months that dad had been gone, Grant was really obsessed with security firms and, and he was really interested in setting up a, um, a security company, um, at the age of six. So, so we created a fictitious, um, security company and he came up with the name Albano Security. Um, and, uh, and I even had for his April birthday of two thousand, I had him, um, shirts and a cap

• 44:01Speaker 01

  made. Um, and I had me one made as well that had Albano Security and our phone number on it and, uh, all the rest of it. So we walked around the house, kind of, I was the managing director and he was the CEO. Um, and, uh, it was really cool. The, the funny thing was, we had this, um, so, so being a fifteen-year-old, I wanted the latest technology, obviously. And, um, and I, the latest technology at that time was a Philips Savvy, believe it or not, a Philips Savvy mobile phone. Um, they don't even make phones anymore, I'm sure, Philips. But anyway, I don't even know if the company exists. But I had one of those really bulky leather cases, uh, on it, you know, that were cool back in the day. Yeah. Sure, you know, sure, you're familiar with those, Gary, not today.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Uh, but you used to clip it to your belt, had a belt clip on it. Anyway, that morning, um, as they were leaving, I said to Grant, here, take the Albano's phone. It was our, it was our primary kind of phone, uh, service. So I said, take the Albano's phone, um, and if you need me, I'm here.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  So he had this, he proudly kind of strutted down the street as he left with this Albano security, uh, phone on his, on his, um, tracky dax that were too, too loose and they were falling down the phone, but he held it so, so proudly. I still vividly remember that memory. But, um, he, um, he managed to call triple zero on that phone. Um, and, uh, I listened to, during the Supreme Court hearing, I listened to the recording of that triple zero call. That was probably the hardest thing that I've ever listened to, to be honest. So he called the triple zero operator and,

• 45:43Speaker 01

  uh, at the age of six, he had to spell out Caiabrum for the operator and the street name. Uh, and then, and then answer the question, what service do you require?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  For a six-year-old?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  For a six-year-old who then says to the operator, all of them, my mother is on fire.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  And, and that then gets the help that she needs. So he, he's telling me, I'm really sorry, but, but I did manage to get help, you know? And I just, I just break down at that point. Um, you know, but, uh, it, it's just phenomenal, the, the heroism, the capacity, the strength and the courage to fight my father who's also burnt because when he doused my mum in petrol and closed the door and then threw a match in, he's got burns that he self-inflicted. So Grant talked

• 46:47Speaker 01

  about in the Supreme Court hearing, the smell of burning flesh on my father as he grabbed him and moved through the house and threw him in the car. I, I just can't even fathom how, how my brother managed to, my brother, and I say that so proudly, uh, managed to do all of that in that moment. Most adults would not even have the capacity in that moment to do that whilst they're being restrained, you know, um, by someone.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Well, uh, little hero.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. He, uh, he deserves, um, the absolute best life that, that anyone could have. Um, and unfortunately, he's, he's been robbed of that, uh, by my father.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  You've described a situation there. You you go down to the uh go down to the hospital. You're trying to process what's going on. I would imagine the trauma that you've seen conditions you to a certain degree, but this has been taken to another level. What happened when you got to the hospital? Like, what, who, who, did you have people you could rely on?

• 47:55Speaker 01

  So, so mum's friend Alan, um, who, who was driving us to Beetworth that day. Um, he got, he, Khyabrum's a pretty small town. He got wind that there was an accident, obviously, and that it involved, uh, involved mum. Uh, Viola, um, and, um, he comes down to the hospital and the hospital says, look, it's unlikely that your mum will survive. Um, however, because we are a regional hospital, we're going to send her, we're going to airlift her to the Alfred, uh, the major centre for burns. And, um, they do that. And, uh, so Alan says, right, do you want to go?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Uh, and, and we high tail it to Peran from Khyabrum, which is at that time, the, the new Hume Highway and bypass wasn't there, so three hour drive.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  To walk into the Alfred Hospital, um, a fairly, I can, I can remember walking in there going, this boy from the country, what, what is this place? Uh, you know, like, like this, this city, I have no idea where I am and what I'm, what I'm doing. And I, and I can't even, I can't even think of my name right now. And we stop at the information desk and we ask about mum and this, this, I remember that the vivid look that comes over the person's, uh, face. And she says she's in ICU.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  We get to ICU and, uh, I'm screaming, I just want to see mum. And Grant's screaming, where's, where's our mum? And, uh, and this nurse and this doctor kind of gets us and says, coming, you've got to come into this room. We go, no, no, no, we, we just want to see mum. And, uh, and they say, you can't right now, but come into this room. And then they sit us down and they say to us, unfortunately, your mum has passed away.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  And I then say to them, I don't believe you.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  I, I, I, I don't, I don't believe you. Let me see her. I, I cannot believe that I said, see you in an hour to my mother this morning at eight AM. And suddenly we're in Peran at the Alfred Hospital and you're telling me that my mother is dead. Let me see her. And they said, we wouldn't advise that.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  And I say to them, if you don't let me see my mother, I'm going to scream and kick and do all of the things that a fifteen year old would do. And they asked me, are you sure?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I say, I am not going to believe that she is dead until you show me her. So they have a little discussion outside the room and then they say, only you, not Grant.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  So you're, you're standing there, you've demanded to see your mother's, uh, body and, uh,

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  They've taken you into a room and you pulled the curtain back.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, uh,

• 51:10Speaker 01

  and as I kind of visualize that space right now, I can, I can remember the overpowering smell of, uh, burnt flesh, what I now know as burnt flesh. Um, and I look at, I move to the head of the bed.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  I, uh, and I see my mother who has burns to ninety-nine percent of her body. She's unrecognisable. Um, what, they're, they're telling me that it's my mother.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  And, uh,

• 51:47Speaker 01

  I can vividly remember at that point acknowledging that my mum was gone.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Just, just saying to myself, this is, this is it.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And then I look at her and I say to her, no matter what, I will always look after Grant.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  And then I try to grab her hand and hold her hand and realise that her body's covered in gasoline and all sorts of fluids and, and all the rest of it. But I, I just whisper one more time, no matter what, I'll always look after Grant. And then I mush it away by nurses and, and doctors, um, who then close the curtain and, uh, put us into a, a little room, Grant and I, and, uh, Alan, who was there at the time.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And we sit there in silence, um, and, uh, I'm just holding Grant at that stage. Grant and I are just holding each other and, uh,

• 53:01Speaker 01

  he, he turns to me and says, I really tried, Ash. I really tried. And, and, you know, I just, I can't imagine what's going through his mind at that point. I mean, what was going through mine was how, how we, how are we going to get through this? And, and what I, what I had to do in that moment, or what I felt I had to do, was swiftly pack my grief away

• 53:28Speaker 01

  and say, Grant needs looking after. I've made a, I've made a promise to mum. And I'm now in charge of looking after Grant. So that's, that's my responsibility now. Um, and I've got that lifelong. So, um, what, what happens now is, what medications does Grant need? Um, it's dinner time by now, um, and he's due, he's due his Caltrate tablets is what I say, because I know that every night and with every meal, he needs Caltrate tablets, uh, to bind his bloody phosphate. And that's what I'm thinking in that room is where are his medications?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Did I bring them? Yes, I remember I brought them. I, I remember I got them. Okay, we can do this. Let's, let's get his medications out. Grant, are these the right medications? Is this what mum normally gives you? And I, I thrown into that practical kind of element of caring almost immediately because for me, that's all that I knew. Survival was moving forward and keeping shit together. You know, um, I, I had a responsibility and that was the only thing that got me up off that couch in that tiny little room at the Alfred Hospital was the fact that I had Grant.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, you're fifteen too. Like, it's, you, you, you're talking with the wisdom of a, uh, a person, an adult person that's lived their whole life. But you, you're fifteen and you had to, all of a sudden, your childhood was gone. If, if you even had a, had a childhood, but your childhood was gone at that stage. And all of a sudden you took on all the responsibilities of, of an adult. So, yeah. And I, I've, I've said it once, I think I'll say it many times, your mum would be so proud of, uh, who, who you are and, uh, how, how you dealt with such a horrific situation. I can't, the way, the way you described it, I just, and I apologize for having you, the, the relive those memories.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  But for people who understand what domestic violence is about and the impact of domestic violence, they need to hear the story from people like yourself that have seen it and understand it.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And you know what, Gary? Um, sharing mum's story and, and our story, it, it gives, um, purpose to mum's murder. Because if someone can learn something from the actions or whatever it might be, the behaviours, the understanding of the dynamics in their relationship or, you know, um, if I can give something back through mum's murder, it, it means that she wasn't murdered in vain.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I think that's the important part. I, I, I don't talk today to, um, you know, ask for any pity or anything like that. What I do is I share mum's story, our journey, so that her memory lives on and that she wasn't murdered for nothing. Um, not that anyone should be, but just so that her memory continues to live on and that people can grow from that.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  By hearing your story, so many lessons can, can be learnt, un- understanding the, the impact indicators, like, we're going to talk heavily about that in, uh, in part two. But we, we've got to, uh, prevent these type of things, uh, things happening. I think we'll take a break for, for part one. Um, we haven't touched on the, the fact that, yeah, you're dealing with the trauma that you've just described and then the realisation that this wasn't an accident. It was in fact a murder and your father was responsible for the murder. So in terms of a life being turned upside down, uh, I, I don't know how it could have become more complex or complicated, uh,

• 57:20Speaker 00

  complicated for you. But I'm also going to say this, Ashton, you blow me away. The, the way that you articulate what you've been through and I, I know what you're doing now. And, uh, yeah, I, I find inspiration from people like you and I, I don't say that lightly. We have a lot of people that come through, uh, on, on the podcast, but, uh, yeah, you're, you're exceptional. And, uh, your description of what, uh, Grant did as a six year old too. Where's his, uh, Citizen of the Year medal? Like, it's, uh,

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Look, yeah, absolutely. He, uh, he, he was nominated for, for Young, Young Australian of the Year and, and, uh, you know, he should have bloody got it, to be honest.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  What you and Grant have been through is just, no one should have to go through it. But, uh, the way you both reacted is a testament to your mum. So, yeah, just full credit to you.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Thanks, Gary.

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Anyway, let's, let's have a break and we'll see you back for, uh, part two shortly.