Male Roles, Obligations and Options for Building a Fulfilling Life | Scott Galloway

Scott Galloway is a professor of marketing at New York University's Stern School of Business. We discuss masculine roles and obligations of past, present and future. We explore which are timeless and which are changing, and positive steps boys and men can take to create meaning and stability in their lives. We cover work, finances, health and relationships to build a grounded, purposeful life. We also discuss tech, social media, alcohol, cannabis and porn. Throughout, we emphasize specific daily practices for building mental, physical and economic resilience, compassion for others, and for navigating key life decisions in every realm. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman David: https://davidprotein.com/huberman Wealthfront*: https://wealthfront.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Scott Galloway (00:02:45) Mentoring Young Men (00:06:16) Positive Masculinity Defined (00:13:37) Sponsors: David & Wealthfront (00:16:33) Men & Goals, Role Models, Technology; Relationships (00:26:34) Elon Musk; Big Tech (00:31:53) Varying Role Models, Flaws; Criticism, Big Tech & Incendiary Content (00:43:33) Sponsor: AG1 (00:44:57) Fear, Dating & Rejection, Relationship Dynamics (00:53:39) Social Media Impacts on Kids; Regulation (01:06:03) Phone, Dopamine & Pseudo-OCD; Solutions (01:14:03) Sponsor: Function (01:15:14) Naval Academy & Lifestyle Protocols, Mandatory National Service (01:23:08) Alcohol Phones & Professional Considerations (01:33:43) Drinking Age; Cannabis, THC (01:37:16) Sponsor: LMNT (01:38:36) Cannabis; Porn, Addiction (01:46:14) Anger; Testosterone; Aspirational Masculinity, Toxic Femininity (01:56:25) Advocating for Young Men, Economic Opportunity, Gerontocracy (02:04:43) Generation Gaps, Retirement, "Vampire" Generation (02:10:30) Bet on Unremarkable, Universities & Vocations; Gerontocracy (02:18:48) Aging; Paying it Forward & Male Mentorship (02:25:33) Seeking Mentors, Young Men; Acknowledgments (02:33:13) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter *This experience may not be representative of other Wealthfront clients, and there is no guarantee of future performance or success. Experiences will vary. Andrew Huberman receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage for paid testimonials in his podcast, creating a conflict of interest. The Cash Account, which is not a deposit account, is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA/SIPC. Wealthfront Brokerage is not a bank. The base APY is 3.30% on cash deposits as of January 30, 2026, is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. If eligible for the overall boosted rate of 4.05% offered in connection with this promo, your boosted rate is also subject to change if the base rate decreases during the 3 month promo period. Additional terms and conditions apply, which can be found on Wealthfront.com/Huberman. Funds in the Cash Account are swept to program banks, where it earns the variable APY. Same-day withdrawal or instant payment transfers may be limited by destination institutions, daily transaction caps, and by participating entities such as Wells Fargo, the RTP® Network, and FedNow® Service. New Cash Account deposits are subject to a 2-4 day holding period before becoming available for transfer. Investment advisory services are provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value. Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  And this is the goal. The goal is no, because you're going to get no's. And then I'm going to call you after you've made the approach. You're going to text me, I did an approach. Did you get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the point. That's the goal. Because everyone you admire, everyone you think has killed it, the only thing I can guarantee you is there were a ton of no's in getting to one of the top 10 podcasts in the world, getting to a person as a partner who's higher character and hotter than you, getting to make more money than you would have ever guessed that person would have made. The only thing that got them there was the willingness and the endurance to anticipate no.

• 0:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway is a professor at New York University's Stern School of Business and one of the world's leading public educators on intelligent life design, including finances, relationships, and as today's conversation also covers, on the sociopolitical landscape. Today, we mainly talk about masculinity and what men, young and old and everything in between, are facing today in terms of their roles to take in work, in relationships, and their health. And today, we don't just review the data.

• 1:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  You'll hear statistics, so Scott is very grounded in quantitative data, which is important, but he also shares several clear, actionable steps that you can take daily to ensure that you're making progress in work and relationships and finances. We also get into a bit of debate, or more, about things like alcohol, the benevolence or lack thereof of big tech and social media, and we talk a lot about the male-female dynamics in terms of the consequences of single-bomb homes and divorce, but just generally male-female dynamics. So while today's episode does include a lot of exploration of different topics that frankly, I didn't anticipate, it's also very proactive. Scott delineates the things that you can do and frankly, should do each day. These aren't just lists or hacks, but effective tools that come from knowledge, data, his

• 2:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  deep thinking, and that reflect the landscape we are in now. I'm very grateful that Scott took the time for this conversation. You'll see that we agree on many things. We disagree on several. He's a very deep thinker, extremely smart, obviously. He also cares about people. That comes through over and over again. And he's extremely generous today on your behalf with indeed tough love knowledge. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway, welcome.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Thanks, man. It's good to see you. Actually, I was nervous driving over here. I like you and respect you. I was thinking, I was trying to figure out why I was nervous. I really want to. I want to do well today. And the last time I had this feeling was when I was going to do Rich Roll's podcast. I really like, like you, I really like and respect Rich. And I remember thinking I had that same feeling. I wanted to do well. Anyways, good to be here.

• 3:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man. Great to have you here. It's funny you say that because, you know, I was coming here and I was thinking, yeah, look up to Scott. Like I respect him. And we've had one conversation prior to this. That ended up being quite extended conversation. And I told Rob right before coming in here, our producer, I'm super fired up to

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 3:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  to learn from you and just sit down and chat with you. So I actually am going to do something differently this podcast than any other podcast, which is the question I'm about to ask or the kind of thing I'm about to pose. I normally would do off camera.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm gonna do it on camera, which is coming in here today. It occurred to me that we as a, how old are you?

• 3:48Speaker 00

  I'm gonna be 62 in November.

• 3:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  62. You look great, man.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 3:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Share what you're doing if we get at the time. Fitness wise, I'm 50 and the risk we run into, I realize is that when I was 16, 20, 30, et cetera, yes, I wanted knowledge, maybe even wisdom from elders. But I also knew with certainty that they didn't understand a thing about what it was like to be that age at that time. So I realized that as much as we might think we know, we don't know what it's like to be 16, 25, 30, 40 year old men. And we'll also talk about women today, but probably mostly men. In 2026. And so how do we reconcile that in a discussion like this? I just wanted to ask you, how do you think about that?

• 4:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because so much of your content and what you're teaching out there is about timeless truths. But there's also a lot of things that are happening now, not just pain points, but maybe opportunities that, I don't know, how do you think about? Do we really know? Like, how should we pass along information in a way that's truly useful to people? Because that's what, obviously, we both want this to be about.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Well, just what you said, you can't, you can't fully relate to a 16 if you're not 16 years old and know what they're going through. And what, you know, you, you guys are skateboarders. And when I was 16, I got home and it was either watch cartoons until my mom got home, or it was take risks and go out and find friends and, and do things. And now there's so much temptation at home between big tech and having a casino in your pocket, and Netflix in your pocket, and porn in your pocket. It's just hard to relate to what they go through. I think the first thing is just acknowledging, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And then turning to data, because there are people who look at the data.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  And I try to counter my biases or my, you know, my uninformed theses with data. And so I try to find good people, good research, and inform it. Also, it helps, I have 15 and 18-year-old sons. I ask them a lot, I observe them a lot, I hang out with them a lot. And you start to pick up on stuff. But I think the first is just being open to people pushing back and recognizing, unfortunately, every once in a while in the comment, when someone points something out and going, if it really hurts and it's upsetting, it's usually because they're right. And they found some soft tissue and they've pressed on it. So, and I'm trying to be open to learning and, and, you know, just acknowledging when I, I got it wrong.

• 6:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  What do you think are the, could be three, could be five, could be 10 things that all males should strive to check the boxes on? In order to have a good life, not just to, you know, be great in some particular role, but like, what are, what are the macronutrients, in your opinion, of becoming a healthy, happy, fulfilled male?

• 6:42Speaker 00

  I think every person, not just every man, needs a code. And that is, you're going to be faced with hundreds of decisions each day, and you want to make, generally speaking, a higher proportion of good decisions than the peer group, right? So what helps is a code. Some people get that code from religion, the military, their really strong family connections. I actually got my first kind of code from my first job. I worked at Morgan Stanley. There was just a certain level of professionalism. I got code from sports at UCLA. But I wonder, there's so many lost men right now, I wonder if masculinity can be a code, or some sort of aspirational form of masculinity, where people born as males might have an easier time leaning in. And I should also say that I don't think masculinity or femininity are sequestered to people born as males or females.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  I'm drawn to men who are more feminine, as friends. My close friends kind of take care of me and are more nurturing. But I think for young men, if they feel like they can lean into some positive masculine attributes, that it could serve as a code. So I loosely break it down into three very reductive qualities, and that is, the first is to be a provider. I'm not talking about the way the world is, but the way the world should be. I think every young man should have a plan and have an assumption that at some point he will have to be the economic leader provider for his family. Sometimes that means getting out of the way of your partner who's better at that whole money thing. Sometimes it means providing more domestic or emotional support and labor if your partner's accelerating economically. When my partner had a kid, she was working at Goldman Sachs, she was making more money

• 8:11Speaker 00

  than me. I was a new academic at NYU, I was making $160,000 living in New York, which is, may sound like a lot of money, but it wasn't, and she was making substantially more. So I tried to pick up slack and provide more labor at home and take charge of our finances. But I think at the outset, trying to find a plan to be economically relevant in a capitalist society is really important. Because whether we like to admit it or not, a male, from a self-esteem standpoint, from a sexual currency standpoint, from the esteem of the tribe of society, is going to be disproportionately evaluated based on your economic viability. So from an early age, try and have a plan. You may not have to stick to that plan. I'm not saying you got to go to Harvard and go to work at Goldman Sachs, but maybe you're

• 8:54Speaker 00

  going to go to trade school, learn how to install energy-efficient HVAC, but you just need a plan, maybe moving towards something. The second... Is protector. If you think about the most masculine jobs, fireman, cop, military, the notion is you develop skills and strengths such that you can protect others. And the most, if you will, manly, masculine, satisfied I ever feel is a night when I feel as if my family feels protected. The kids are asleep, my partner feels loved and supported, and I've been able to, hopefully through partnership, through economic viability, been able to provide a warm, comfortable life for them so they can focus on the things that are important to them. And I think unfortunately, a lot of men that we should look up to, whether it's the president, I apologize for getting political, or the wealthiest

• 9:39Speaker 00

  man in the world, who are naturally going to be seen as male role models, they seem to have skipped the protection part. That the whole shooting match, the whole reason you make money, that's the means, but the ends is such that you can protect others. I find that's the most rewarding thing in the world. And then finally, procreator. And that is, I think we need to stop demonizing young men's desire for relationships and sexual desires. I think a young man wanting to have sex is, can be a tremendous motivator to be a better man. It's like fire. It can be incredibly destructive, but if you put it in a steel casing with spark plugs, it can create tremendous progress. And the story I use is that I was at the Raleigh Hotel in Miami, and I saw a very attractive woman.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  And it was the middle of the day, and without the benefit of alcohol, I didn't have the confidence to approach her. But I promised myself I was going to approach her, and then I went out to get my car from the valet, and was sitting in the car, and I'm like, "God, you're such a fucking wimp." So I ran back in, went up to her, and said, "Hi, I'm Scott. Where are you from?" Anyways, long story short, 18 months later, our son's middle name is, born was Raleigh. And I didn't look at her, Andrew, and think I'd really like lower rates on auto insurance. I looked at her and thought, "I'd really like to have sex with her." And I think young men's desire for relationships and sex, if channeled correctly, makes you want to be a better man. Have a kindness practice, demonstrate excellence,

• 11:03Speaker 00

  shower for God's sakes, work out, have a plan, have resilience, have perseverance, demonstrate excellence. So, in sum, provider, protector, procreator. Where I think I missed it in the book, and I'd love your response, because I'm open to criticism here, is one... That's what worked for me, and I think a lot of younger people, there's different forms of masculinity that don't necessarily involve being economically secure or finding a mate. And also, the component I've really missed is service. And I think a great, great kind of one question or proxy for masculinity in terms of what you do every day is, are you optimizing for attention or service?

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Right? And then the litmus test that Richard Reeves kind of gave me, who's sort of my Yoda on this stuff, is this notion of surplus value. That some men are born males, but never, they die never having become men. It's not about a religious ceremony, an age, or, you know, some sort of experience or ritual. It's about, at some point, can you honestly look in the mirror and say, "I had surplus value. I create more tax revenue and jobs than I absorb." Everyone absorbs tax revenue if you're in America. I listen to more people complain than I complain. Right? I love more people than love me. And I didn't get that. I don't think I really became a man well into my 40s, because I was always, I took a capitalist approach to relationships. I always wanted more. I

• 12:33Speaker 00

  wanted a girlfriend that was better to me than I was to her. I wanted a job where I was getting paid more maybe than I was contributing. And then what you realize as you get older is the whole shooting match is to create surplus value, be a better friend, be a better partner. There's no way my kids will ever be able to return as much as I've invested in them. I mean, we have these, you know, the Hallmark channel and insurance commercials will tell me that I'll have these moments, and I get those, but my kids are never up at 2:00 a.m. worried about me. They just aren't. Right? I'm spending a ton, I always say to them, "You're adding negative value. Just be clear. You go to these amazing schools, all these talented people, negative value. Me and your mom, we are constantly investing

• 13:16Speaker 00

  in you. This would be impossible for you to pass back." What I figured out is that's the whole shooting match, is I'm finally, finally, Andrew, finally at a place of surplus value. I apologize for the word salary. Provider, protector, procreator, are you optimizing for service, not attention? And can you really say that you add surplus value?

• 13:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. I have to say, these are the best tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years. These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible. I, of course, eat regular whole foods. I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera. But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.

• 14:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including cookie dough, caramel chocolate, double chocolate, peanut butter chocolate. They all actually taste like candy bars. Again, they're amazing. But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories. If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free. You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger. Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront. In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about how to save and invest your money.

• 15:07Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 15:48Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 16:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  For more information, please see the episode description. I love all that. I don't have anything to add. I do have two questions and one reflection. The reflection is that what you started with, that every day you're making decisions all day long, and you want more of those to be good decisions than bad decisions, relative to your peers. I think that's a terrific way to think about striving. And I've never heard it posed that way, so I really just want to bold underline and highlight that for everyone. For the eighth grader, for the 12th grader, for the college junior, the 40-year-old man, make better decisions than the average around you.

• 17:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  The problem I have, I guess I do have one caveat here, is that most people won't remember this, but that show Jerry Springer, I think, was so popular because people like to focus on all the people doing worse than them because it makes it easy to stay right where you're at. So who are the comparison points that one can keep in mind as they strive to make these better decisions each day? Because I think that first statement you made is touching into some serious wisdom. So who is the comparison point and how do you keep that framed? Because you study markets, you understand markets. What's the market comparison point in this? Make more better decisions than worse ones relative to the average as you progress through your day?

• 17:53Speaker 00

  I think it's really important, I mean, you're talking a little bit about role models and references. And so first off, one myth I think we need to dispel is that success equals exploitation. There's a very unhealthy zeitgeist, especially from the far left, that anyone who's very successful is exploiting others. And I think we need to puncture that narrative and say, you should strive to be successful. And success might mean certain things for other people. I didn't grow up with money, so for me, success for most of my life was trying to get economic security. Anxiety plagued my mom and I, economic anxiety, and it was like a ghost following us around, telling us we weren't worthy. So my role models were always people who'd figured out economic success. And people have to pick

• 18:37Speaker 00

  their own role models. I always thought masculinity was getting back in someone's face who wasn't, didn't give me the respect I thought I deserved. I was that asshole that when someone cut me off in traffic, felt like I needed to speed up and cut them off. That if the Delta ticket counter representative wasn't kind to me, or was busy, I would get back in their face, it's like, well, do you realize I'm a 1K member? And then, you know, a decent reference point is just men you admire, and they're everywhere, that perhaps don't, can take blows. They realize someone might be having a bad day. But you said something that inspired a thought, and that what I just outlined is pretty meta, you know, kind of themes that sometimes aren't that actionable. So I just want to bring it down one level. As we were talking about off mic, I try and mentor two or three young

• 19:22Speaker 00

  men at any given time. And these are young men that quite frankly, need mentoring. They're struggling, most of them might be still living at home. You know, they're not, these aren't people who went to Brown and are working at Goldman Sachs. And so some, just some more tactical things that I think serve as a reference point for how you succeed, or how you make progress. The first thing I do, the first hack is I say, unlock your phone. And I'm going to look at it. And there's a little bit of nervousness. So what I do to loosen them up, or lubricate it, is I say, okay, let me tell you two things. First is I gamble. I don't gamble on FanDuel, I gamble with options. I know it's stupid, I know I'm going to lose money over the long term. I'm a smart guy, I love markets. But

• 20:03Speaker 00

  that dope a hit I get is too seductive. So I sell calls and puts. I consume porn. That's sort of not, that's not a, that's an embarrassing thing to say at 61. But yeah, I still consume porn. But I tell them that and it lubricates or it, it makes them more comfortable. I open their phone. Everyone has an advantage. Most young men who are not excelling, if you will, by traditional Western capitalist standards, their advantage is capital, specifically their human capital. They have time. And within about five to seven minutes, I can find eight hours of time from TikTok, from X, from porn, from gambling sites, from YouTube.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  I'm like, we're gonna find eight hours. You tell me we're, we're gonna reduce this eight hours. And next week, I'm gonna check. And we're gonna reallocate that capital into three things. The first is, we're gonna get really fucking strong. I just think the best antidepressant is moving weights, building some bulk, or running far. I've jokingly said, every man under the age of 30 should aspire to be able to walk in any room and know if shit got real, they could kill and eat everybody or outrun them. Like, there's different forms of fitness. You can be fast, you can be flexible, you can be strong. But there's no excuse. The male form is blessed with, you know, more bone density, double twitch muscle, all the things you talk about, this incredible substance that pours over called testosterone.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  You're gonna look back when you're my age and think, why wasn't I just fast, sleek, a monster, just strong? So we're gonna work out at least three times a week. The second thing is, we gotta make some money. And I want you to make money outside of your house. You know, I don't care if you're a Lyft driver, TaskRabbit, or Panera's hiring people at 18 bucks an hour, and only one out of 10 that accept a job actually show up the first day. So if you make, if you really make the effort, you can make decent money. And the great thing about getting a taste for the flesh of money is you start learning how to make more money. If you wanna make a lot of money, unless you're smart enough to be born to rich parents, start off by making a little bit of money and you'll start to figure out capitalism, right?

• 22:10Speaker 00

  And the final thing is, at least three times a month, we're gonna put ourselves in a group sitting where we are trying to achieve something great in the agency of others. A nonprofit, a church group, a sports league, a riding club. And then the second phase of that is, we're gonna do something what I call is the approach. Hey, hey, man, you want to go watch the Jets game, right? An expression of friendship. And then if you're really comfortable, an expression of romantic interest while making them feel safe. Would you like to grab a coffee sometime? And this is the goal. The goal is no, because you're going to get no's. And then I'm going to call you after you've made the approach, you're going to text me, I did an approach. Did you get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the point. That's the goal.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Because everyone you admire, everyone you think has killed it, the only thing I can guarantee you is there were a shit ton of no's in getting to one of the top 10 podcasts in the world, getting to a person as a partner who's higher character and hotter than you, getting to make more money than you would have ever guessed that person would have made. The only thing that got them there was the willingness and the endurance to anticipate no. And unfortunately, big tech is setting up an algorithm that convinces you that a frictionless life is a good life, and that you never need to endure no. And what you end up with is a lack of skills to persevere, to realize you're okay. And that's what I asked the kids the next day. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm bummed out, but you're okay.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  If a man under the age of 30 works out three times a week, works 30 hours a week outside of the house, right, and is volunteering, that immediately puts him in the top 8% of all young men. And I apologize for the word salad here, but something I hate is the incel movement, involuntarily celibate, right? Throughout history, 99% of men have been involuntarily celibate for most of their lives. There's few things young men would rather be doing than having sex. Only 40% of men have reproduced throughout history, 80% of women. So no man has a birthright to reproduce. In the West, it's actually now 75%. So young men have more agency than they ever have.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Now, if you do those things, right, just those three things, work outside of the house, work out, have a kindness practice, volunteer in the service of others, you're immediately going to put yourself in the top decile of young men. And if you're in the top decile of young men... I can guarantee you, over time, you will become voluntarily in celibate, which is awesome, because you'll establish a relationship. And young men under the age of 30, a lot of the research shows, benefit more from a relationship than women. Yet only one in three men under the age of 30 is in a relationship, whereas two in three women are in a relationship. And you think, well, Scott, that's mathematically impossible. It's not, because women are dating older because they want more economically and emotionally viable men.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  So I'll circle back to the more tactical recommendations. Get fit, start making some money, have a plan, and start doing things in the agency of others. I think the ultimate hack for depression, or if you're feeling bad about yourself, is to start helping others. And to always keep in mind, and this is the hard part, that the antichrist of your progress as a young man, the devil, the fucking enemy, the villain here, the Bond villain with trillions of dollars, is big tech. They are trying to figure out with AI, a million times a second, how to convince you to spend one more second a day on your phone, sequestered from your relationships, because they're a shareholder value.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Forty percent of the S and P is 10 companies whose sole mission is to monetize your time. And unfortunately, they're not, they're not bad people, but what they're doing has resulted in a small group, a cohort of men, it's not small, millions of men, who are evolving into a new species of asocial, asexual males, who wake up at the age of 30 thinking they've had a frictionless life, living at home, obese, anxious and depressed, having never developed the skills that they need to do well professionally, personally. So big tech is not your friend. If you do not figure out how to modulate big tech products, whether it's Instagram or YouTube, you are falling into a trap of eventually being sequestered

• 26:29Speaker 00

  and not developing the skills to establish the most important thing in life, and that is relationships.

• 26:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Two questions about big tech and I'll just push back a little bit on the big tech thing, not because I'm afraid of big tech. I did grow up in Silicon Valley, so I

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Well, and you're at Stanford.

• 26:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, invariably have a different relationship to it and I, I'm not name dropping, I happen to be close with some of the people that run these companies or in number, you know, two or number four slots or, you know, in some cases who run the companies. One who I've never met, who I'll just raise first, is who you referred to earlier, the richest man in the world is Elon Musk.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 27:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I was frankly, a little bit surprised that you called him out when discussing the importance of being a protector. I understand the political side, well, let's just, for the moment, I will just set Trump aside, very polarizing figure, happy to go there if you want, but I know your stance on him. But the, the mention of Elon and as a non-protector surprised me.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because I think of Elon as somebody who seems to love his children very much. He's organized family differently than most, but he certainly has the capacity to take care of them, who is committed to big projects.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, a, a superhuman level of, of output in terms of just Neuralink, the field that I'm closest to, right? Phenomenal progress, and that's just one of the SpaceX, Neuralink, Tesla X, et cetera. So I'm just curious what motivated that.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 27:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you, that makes you, because I don't see him as a non-protector. I don't know that I see him as a protector of a particular kind in his personal life, but I don't have access to that. But in terms of his motivation to protect our species.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  I personally believe his desire to get to Mars is a genuine one.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  To have an option for humanity. So I see him as a protector. And I'll probably piss off a lot of people by saying this, but that doesn't mean I universally adopt everything he says and does. But I see him as kind of an awesome figure in our history who's like, let's get to Mars in case this earth thing doesn't work out. And also, let's get to Mars because it's awesome.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  I think that's an entirely fair viewpoint and you're adding nuance to it. So let's talk about Elon Musk. If I had a red button that I could push and get rid of all of big tech, or Elon Musk, somehow it could float away like a Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Character and not die, but just not not have happened. I wouldn't press the button. I think big tech and Elon Musk are net goods for the world. We're going to get to EVs. We're going to get to Mars faster because of Elon Musk. He inspired the EV race, which is good for the world. The problem is with the word net. And as it relates to masculinity and as a role model for young men, he's probably

• 29:15Speaker 00

  one of the best role models in terms of being super aggressive, taking risks, ignoring the noise and just being laser like focused, telling an amazing story, garnering capital. I mean, there's just no getting around it. The guy's just an inspiration. I think the whole shooting match is if you become the richest man in the world, I think you move to protection. I would argue that he's not a great role model and that he has not done a great job of convincing younger men that protection and taking care of others. I think the way he acquits himself online by punching down, when he says something mean about somebody, and I know this and I'm fine because I have, I have money and I'm not dependent upon any one person's opinion of me.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  But if he says something negative about you and calls your names, his 120 million followers come for you. And I think as a general rule, and this is true for everybody, but especially for men, you never punch down. You just don't. Anyone, I'm openly, I make personal attacks on people. This is technically a personal attack on Elon Musk. To call someone not, not, not good, a good role model, that's a personal attack. But I never make personal attacks of anyone who isn't markedly more powerful than me. And I find that a lot of these people, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, have no problem punching down. So again, it goes back to this. Is he a net good for the world? I acknowledge the point and I would even argue, yeah, he is.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  But that doesn't, he should also be held accountable for his blessings. I can't stand the fact that he shitposts America and the government. If you look at the most successful companies in the world, they're littered up and down the coast right now, whether it's Qualcomm in San Diego. SpaceX and Snap here, head north to Salesforce and Meta and Google, keep going, you hit Amazon and Microsoft, and then it stops. Once you get to the Canadian border. And then you have to go all the way up to Lululemon to find a multi-billion dollar company. Come back down to where you teach at UC San Diego and those great companies, and it stops. And you gotta go to another 7,000 kilometers to get to Mercado Libre in Buenos Aires. There's something about America that creates unbelievable opportunity,

• 31:26Speaker 00

  that creates the wealthiest men in the world. And I find that these tech brothers have a total lack of appreciation for the sacrifices in the system built in America, and are the first to shitpost the government, and complain about regulation and things getting in the way. I find that especially obnoxious. But let me acknowledge the point. I think, on the whole, Elon Musk and big tech are a net good for the world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them accountable and ask, why would you do these things when you're so blessed?

• 31:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  So this gets to the heart of something that I think is extremely important, which is, we're living in the age of everything, pretty much, being public about public figures. Not everything, but many more facets of their lives than ever before in history. In part because they share many more facets of their lives. It's not just that stuff gets unearthed. It's like, they're talking about their company, they're also in the role of arguing with their ex on, sometimes online, you know, you see that. Their kids sometimes will, will be apparent who they are, you know. It's interesting, my dad, first generation immigrant who came here, became a scientist, and he's from Argentina, and he, along these lines, he always said,

• 32:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  it was funny to him, that when you would go to somebody's office in the United States, a professor or businessman or something, the picture of his family was facing out. He said, that was so weird. He said, in Argentina, your picture of your wife and your kids and your, and your dog, it was facing in. That's yours. You don't share that with a person coming to your office. Like, who would do that? This oversharing thing, if it, when you look back, is a kind of a longstanding theme in American business. And it shows up even more so, of course, online. So, to me, this, this idea of, okay, Elon, for instance, but very different role model figure, someone that I consider a close friend, Jaco Willink, incredibly impressive. True warrior. Yeah. Great dad, great husband. I know his family.

• 33:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing human being in so many ways. And he's kind of like the tough football coach that a lot of guys didn't have, that younger guys. I think that's one of the reasons people gravitate towards him. You don't wonder whether or not he really can do what he says you ought to do. Because he does it every day and he posts it on his watch. So Jaco is a really good example of somebody that people admire. And I consider Jaco one example. So why not look at public figures? You and perhaps even me, for instance, and just look at it, these people as a buffet of options to adopt certain traits, but not others. Be doing great things and assuming that the other things they're doing aren't truly atrocious, right? I mean, criminal, atrocious, you know? I don't know that we're asking the people who are role models, leaders, business leaders.

• 34:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I don't think we're placing a reasonable expectation on them. I don't say this for any personal reasons. I've known I'm replete with flaws for the very long time. So I don't claim to not have them, never have. But then young guys are, might be thinking, well, I have to be perfect too. And if I'm not perfect and I don't have 150 million followers, I better have a fraternity of people to protect me. This is the kind of the underlying current that I think has driven the toxic end of the, hate the word, the manosphere. I hate it because it's become too mishmashy. It's not, it's not even a continuum. It's just a mess. So what do you have to say and think about the expectation that the leaders of the world,

• 34:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  the role models, not have these flaws? At the same time, telling guys, hey, like, ask and get told no. I mean, you and I both know, I don't know if it's real world data or if it's statistical data, but I have many women friends in my life and I have a sister. If an attractive guy rolls up on a woman and says, hey, you want to get coffee sometimes? It's romantic. It's romantic. If a guy that's not attractive does that. It's creepy. It's creepy.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  So how do you tell a guy that isn't good looking?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  To do that and then not be called a creep? And not just be called a creep, but be called a creep on an app? Which isn't just designed to prevent sexual assault, but is also designed to share information about who to date and not to date. And guys get black, I'm told by young guys, I'm not on dating apps, but that guys get blacklisted, basically.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 35:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not because of sexual assault, but because, you know, they get called out as like a bad kisser, he didn't smell so good or something. This is the stuff that used to be in private discussions among women. I know this because I have a sister, right? Women talk, I listen through the wall, right? What do they talk about? And now it's public. There's parallel construction here, I'm sure you're tracking it. But for everyone listening, it's like, this is a serious problem.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 36:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, can't we acknowledge that somebody like Elon, let's just stay on that example, is a, is a phenom that probably has never existed in a hundred, at least a hundred years.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 36:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Has huge vision. Sure, he might have some like issues in his, in his life that are none of my business. And yet he has a lot of good example to set for young men. I believe that. And it also gives permission to not be perfect.

• 36:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Without harming people.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  So, uh, acknowledge the point, there's a lot there. But I still think if someone is constantly optimizing for attention to draw cheap capital to his firms and is very open and very critical of others and is probably the most dominant force in electing the next president, that we should pay very close attention to his activities. Whether it's a reported addiction to ketamine and, and sleeping with a loaded gun next to his bed and not living with any of his children, whether it's...

• 37:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  You think that should be public fair game?

• 37:10Speaker 00

  I think if he wants to put certain aspects of his life out there constantly for affirmation, that that type of scrutiny is probably fair game. I also acknowledge the point that people are human and you need to have some grace and say, well, unless you're perfect, try and learn from people, try and understand them and try and demonstrate some grace. The other thing going back to big tech is that we have connected economic...

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Value to tearing down people. So you've had best sellers. I've had best sellers.

• 37:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  I said, my book hasn't come out yet. I hope for it to be a best seller.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  You haven't, you have a book?

• 37:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, it comes out in September. It's been delayed for a while, but, but I appreciate the.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  I feel like I've already read it.

• 37:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, well, God willing, it does as well. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Let me, let me prepare because I think you're actually, I don't know you well, but I do know you. I get the sense that like me, a lot of the criticism doesn't just bounce right off you. That you take this stuff to heart and sometimes it upsets you.

• 38:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I know what, okay, I'll say, it upsets me. Some of it does, but it's not the criticism that people think upsets me that upsets me. But that's a different story.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Your book will be a best seller. You, you could put out, you could, you could put out, I don't know, the, the script of the sound of music and it's going to be a best seller.

• 38:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  It'll be better than if I had done that, but not better than the sound of music.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  There you go. And this is what Tik Tok and YouTube, the algorithms, if someone will immediately say, this is why Andrew Huberman's book is bullshit. Because if they put a well-known figure's name in front of a bestselling book and says bullshit and creates antagonism and comments, the algorithms pick up on that, optimize it. It'll get millions of views, which is more Nissan ads and more shareholder value. So there is not only a healthy check on people's power, more scrutiny. The president should get a lot of scrutiny. The president deserves to have his business and personal life, to a certain extent, at least where it demonstrates character, looked into and examined. And I think a certain amount of power and healthy check on power is probably a healthy thing.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, now there's economic incentive around tearing people down. Like, I don't know about you, I do have a real fear. I am highly imperfect professionally and personally. I've engaged in a lot of professional and personal behavior that I am not proud of. I've been divorced. I haven't been as kind of people that have worked for me as I should have been. And I'm worried it's all gonna come crashing down. And a lot of times I feel like the stuff I'm saying on podcasts like this, I'm trying to portray myself as being better than I actually am. I have huge imposter syndrome. And big tech has an economic incentive in trying to find as many guardians of gotcha pins as possible. Because if you get to a certain point of fame or credibility, there's just too much

• 39:57Speaker 00

  money in trying to find the soft tissue on you. So there's a very unhealthy attribute in our society. We're all just waiting for bad news and there's economic incentive to say, well, this person isn't perfect. Look what this person did. So I agree with you, we need to demonstrate a little bit more grace. Something I really hate about my party, I consider myself a proud progressive, is these purity tests, right? That, oh, you know, I, I put out a picture of me and a bunch of buddies that I went to UCLA with. One's a, an aircraft carrier pilot, one's an ophthalmologist. Like, it was a picture of all of us and I've said, you know, find impressive men and befriend them.

• 40:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think I saw that post. You were the one towering over the rest of them.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I've shrunk. It's not weird.

• 40:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're a tall guy. No, I don't think you should. I really know you now.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  I was 6'3 in college. I'm 6'1 and a half now. It's nice I'm at an age where I'm shrinking. Anyways, and I knew, I was just waiting for it. Why privilege? What a douchebag. What, you know, just all the comments and all the sort of, you know, people, people coming after you, right? Or people who can't just say, oh, good for you, well done. And that's just part of it. And that's a small price to pay for a certain level of success. But the algorithms immediately grab that and elevate it. Because there's money and antagonism. A thoughtful nuanced conversation online and a positive reinforcing comment, that doesn't tickle the censors. If you can create a fight online, if you say mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you're gonna

• 41:26Speaker 00

  get a lot of comments and the algorithms love that. And it'll elevate it. So unfortunately, we have attached 40% of the market value of the S and P to incendiary content that tears us apart. And the result is, people now don't believe that Russian troops pouring over the border in Ukraine is their enemy. They believe that their neighbor with a Trump sign is their real enemy. Or someone who doesn't believe your ideology around gender politics is your enemy. And unfortunately, it's being, I believe, and I know this sounds paranoid, but doesn't mean I'm wrong, these porous platforms that have an economic incentive and antagonistic content are being fueled. By bad actors, whether it's the GRU or the CCP, who look at Americans, say, "We can't beat them economically.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  We can't beat them kinetically, so let's get them to hate each other." And that is, Americans now perceive other Americans as the biggest threat. So, one, it is healthy to look at powerful people that have huge influence, such as you, and to a lesser extent, me, and question their beliefs and write critical articles of them. It crushed me when the, I can't remember, was it The Atlantic or The New York? Or New Yorker came out with sort of a critical review of my book. It was really upsetting to me, and I think part of the thing that was so upsetting was, and we were talking about this off mic, it meant some of it was true. That's healthy. It's healthy when there's thoughtful criticism around your book. But when I have hundreds of comments accusing me of shit that never happened,

• 42:53Speaker 00

  and then you look at it, and it's Dog Mom Wisconsin 331 with three followers, that's a bot. And the fact that these platforms choose not to screen out those bots, because they know more incendiary comments that create more comments and more Nissan ads, I think that is tearing at the fabric of America. But I just want to acknowledge the point. I think maturity is realizing people aren't perfect. Learn from them what you can. But I do think the wealthiest man in the world and the president should be held to a higher standard. I think they have extraordinary blessings. I think their decisions matter. And I think it's, I think the scrutiny they come under is warranted. And I will say this, I think the president, to a certain extent, Elon Musk, have created a lot of cloud cover for our imperfections.

• 43:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast. And I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy. And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition. Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods. I certainly do that every day. But I'm often asked, if you could take just one supplement,

• 44:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  what would that supplement be? And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance. I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral 1, dot com slash huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. I disagree vehemently with one point, which is that I'm more influential than you are. You're incredibly influential.

• 45:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  In fact, an ex-girlfriend's sister who went to NYU asked me if I knew who you were. I said, of course. And she said, her words, "For our generation, Scott is like a father to us." It's like we... And she happens to be in venture capital, but so maybe there's a finance link there too. And I... But I pressed on that a little bit and just asked. And she said, "Yeah, you know, we look up to him. We listen to him. He's very paternal to us." So I thought you might appreciate that.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  I do appreciate that.

• 45:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Coming from a woman as well.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  I'd appreciate it more if she'd said older brother. I'm very conscious of my age now.

• 45:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Are you? Really?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 45:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're in your 60s. You're super fit. You've got two healthy boys. You're in a happy relationship. You've got huge reach. I imagine your bank accounts are fine and you're trying to... And you're actively engaged in service. In my eyes, you're doing great.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  I appreciate that. But I'd rather be doing... I'd rather be in this spot at 40, at 41, not 61. I'm very, I'm very self-conscious about my age. But I just want to go back to something I think that gets in the way of success and has been a huge unlock for me is...

• 46:14Speaker 00

  I mean, it's not... But your fear, your fear of criticism. If you're going to be successful, you're going to face criticism. Starting a business is subjecting yourself to public failure. I want to go back to something you said about approaching women and guys being afraid to be that guy.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  I think some of that is a little bit exaggerated. And that most women, if you are respectful, the vast majority of women, if you're respectful and approach a woman at a bar, hi, how are you, and she's not interested, you're gonna be fine, and you're both gonna be fine. And just as, I think there's two myths that are damaging to the mating market, which is really upsetting to me. One, that men think that all women are looking to, or a lot of women are looking to embarrass them, and they might get canceled professionally. If you're respectful to a woman and approach her and make her feel safe, and then if she's not interested, politely exit, you're gonna be fine, and so is she. And I don't buy that you're taking your career in your hands. I think that's just bullshit. And an excuse to be an incel. I just don't buy it.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  And two, what really has been an enormous unlock for me is I believe, in my atheism, I believe at some point I'm gonna look into my kid's eyes and know our relationship is coming to an end. I was fucking their age. You got a bunch of young dudes in here who look like former Abercrombie and Fitch models. I remember, they look like they're 25, they're probably 35. It was yesterday I was their age, which means just in an instant, I'm gonna be, again, at that moment where I know I don't have much time left. And in a hundred years, no one's gonna give a shit what I said or thought, or did, or the mistakes I made. And embracing that and accepting that has given me so much courage, right? To start businesses, to make dumb investments that might be crazy, to tell, to tell men

• 47:52Speaker 00

  in my life, finally, that I love them, or I'm impressed with them. When I was their age, I had this weird sense of masculinity, that if I said, oh, dude, look how handsome this dude is, that it took away from my prestige somehow. That I couldn't tell people they were impressive. I couldn't tell a woman, God, I'm just crazy about you, and I'm, I would give anything to spend more time with you, because I was worried that she wouldn't return my affection, and I would be just too hurt, and I had to be cool, and like, not need her, not, all this bullshit that got in the way of me really having a good life. And what I realized is every failure I've had, people go, oh, his business went bankrupt. Okay. And then they go back to thinking about themselves. So everyone you're worried about really doesn't give a shit about you.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  And by the way, the dude that's not very good-looking and is with a ridiculously, like, high-character, hot woman is one of two things. As rich parents, or two, or two, is willing to endure rejection. So I just don't buy, you know...

• 48:55Speaker 00

  That myth of the man risking his personal and professional reputation, I don't think that's true. On the other side, the myth I hate, I don't know if you've seen this, on TikTok, a lot of women are saying, I don't date because the risk of being unalived, which I guess is the woke version of saying murdered.

• 49:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think it's because on social media platforms, if you say murder or suicide.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Oh, it goes ranked down?

• 49:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  They, I don't know if it actually does, but it's this idea that, yeah, that it's going to be ranked down.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Here's the data. Okay, if, 2,500 women a year are murdered by men. That's way too many. It's a huge problem. Sexual assault is a bigger problem. The majority of women who are murdered are murdered by someone they know. So, the reality is, a small number of women are murdered on dates with strangers. It just doesn't happen that often. And 40,000 men a year kill themselves. So if you go on a date with a man, the man is 16 times more likely to go home and hurt himself than hurt you. So what I would say to men is make the approach, take the risk, and as long as you're respectful, you're going to be fine, and so is she, and you are not taking your professional or personal reputation into your hands. And what I would say to women is if you go on a date with a guy that you met on an app,

• 50:07Speaker 00

  there's all sorts of digital breadcrumbs, and it's a lot, you are, and I can statistically prove this, the ride over in Uber, the Uber was a lot more dangerous than the date itself, and you are more likely to die of choking during dinner than to be hurt by that man. So, what I hate is that there's all this inflammatory content being boosted on online media that's getting in the way of the most rewarding thing in life, and that is to find someone who you are physically attracted to, you sync up with spiritually, and you decide to build a life together. And not enough of that is happening. We're in a sex recession, right? And online is making it worse. The dating apps have an incentive in you finding a bigger, better deal, and the genders

• 50:52Speaker 00

  have done an amazing job of convincing each other it's the other's fault. And I think one of the big foci that need to be really pay more attention to is what I call renewal of alliances. I'd love to see a renewal of alliances between us and our great allies in Europe. Renewal of allies who are moderates. I know nothing about you, I just don't, I just can't believe you're an extremist on the left or the right, I just don't. Bullseye. There needs to be a renewal of alliances between what I'll call moderate lefties like me and moderate conservatives that are everywhere. We're all Americans, but the most important alliance that needs renewal is the greatest alliance in history, hands down, and it's the alliance between men and women.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  The integration of female and male energy, the ability to find someone you want to procreate with, to build something together, that is the most rewarding thing in life, and I can prove it's key to the species' progress and existence. And men and women have been taught not to trust each other and to blame each other. I hate the fucking manosphere, and I hate the, quite frankly, some of the reactionary notion on the left where it's misandry, cosplaying is social commentary. There's a lot of bullshit misandry online where you're assuming every young man is a predator, and quite frankly, that every billionaire is evil, or that every white person is racist, but the alliance between men and women needs to be reformed.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  It's the greatest alliance in history, and online, it's teaching men to blame women for their problems. No, women's assent saved our ass. Women in the factory in World War II is the reason we won the war in four years, not in seven. Women going into the workforce in the 70s and 80s and protections of their rights for fair pay is the reason we're not a second-tier power to China right now. If women hadn't ascended, we'd be really squarely and duly fucked, right? And their ascent is in no way inversely correlated or correlated to men's descent. Men have to stop that bullshit. An immigrant didn't take your job, he made it such that you could have lower rent, a meal for a reasonable price, and have someone take care of your mother when she's older.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  And at the same time, if you're having romantic problems, it's not her fault. Women are ascending, and naturally, they have higher standards because they're no longer economically dependent upon men, which should be a motivator for men to level up, not to start blaming women. And all this shit is being totally inflamed and taken totally out of proportion by online because it creates more attention, it's interesting, it's novel, and it creates more Nissan ads. But I'm trying to figure out, what is the economic incentive to try and figure out a way to get more men and women appreciating the other gender beyond just the basics, right? How do we renew that alliance?

• 53:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love that statement. I saw somewhere, of all places, on X, you know, every once in a while, you encounter something that really sticks with you. Every once in a while, there's a gem that just falls through, really makes you think. And I don't know who this person was, might have been an account with one follower, and it landed in front of me and it said, "The way you destroy a society is to get the men and women to hate each other." And as a biologist, first and foremost, I thought, well, that makes perfect sense. If you want to eradicate a population of any species, you get the males and the females to start hating each other, not just because they don't mate, but because you throw off the mating dynamics in a way that then can create infighting among the males, we see that too, infighting among the women. Although, I don't know, I think that there's a lot

• 54:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  to explore around this, sort of what the standard is that we're holding the opposite sex to. It's an interesting question. I can't say I've really evolved my thinking around this enough to maybe dive into it, but I know you thought about this. I think a lot of males hide behind this notion that they have to be everything. They have to be tall, they have to be rich, they have to be jacked, they have to be kind, they have to be, you know, hopefully that everyone's kind, but you know what I mean, that they can't say the wrong thing even once, you know, so they're hiding behind that. And if they go out and look, they'll get plenty of evidence for that, right? No protectors, no this. Actually, I brought, I did something I rarely do, which is I brought my phone into this, because

• 55:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  right before I came in here, a woman that I've known for 20 years wrote and asked me if I would ask you a question. And I know, and it's directly related to this, so I'm gonna do this, of course, I'm not gonna say who this person is. And she said, because I mentioned that I'm speaking to you today, and she said, Please tell Scott that I'd personally like to thank him for his efforts encouraging men to embrace their duties as protectors, providers, and generally just being accountable. Because we have a serious shortage among hetero dudes, she lives in San Francisco, particularly in the Bay Area. And I said, "Will do, but can you tell me what you mean by accountable? Serious question, I want to make sure I'm specific." She said, "When I say accountability, I'm referring to the fact that many times in romantic relationships, men seem to want to avoid feelings of shame and guilt, to

• 55:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  such a degree that they often respond to their partner's feelings towards them without empathy or accountability. I find that here in, okay, San Francisco, there are many women in San Francisco, I don't think I outed her here, or perhaps all major US metros, chivalry is dead. Men are afraid to assert their desires because they don't want the obligation that it might entail." Interesting. They give up when something requires internal growth or leveling up. They shy away from acting protective of their partners in favor of egalitarian dynamics, which is flawed since men clearly have more physical strength." Oh my god, this goes on and on. This is almost overwhelming me, but I think I'm, you know, can grapple with it. Oh, thank you, I swear I didn't plant this. She said, "None of this has ever applied to you, in case you're serious."

• 56:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for that one, by the way. She says, "They're wimpy. They avoid relationships that require work and responsibility because they don't want to feel inadequate. They avoid difficult conversations and repair because they don't want to feel shame or guilt. They avoid asking for anything explicitly because they don't want to feel obligated, or complimenting a woman, or giving her flowers, or romance. They're all scared to do it. It's so odd." Anyway, that's it. That's all, huh? Okay, so I'm hearing that second part for the first time, the long part. And I have to say, if I were a 25-year-old guy now, I'd be like, "Whoa." Right. That's a lot. Okay, there's something there. They want me to bring flowers, be romantic, be affectionate.

• 57:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Clearly, there's a reference towards being sexually proactive there. And yet, assume responsibility, level up, be empathic. You know, I'm not trying to defend or attack this person who I'm close to in my life, but that's a lot. That's a tall building right there to scale, for a guy who's trying to figure out how to work out three times a week, get off porn. Anyway, I thought I'd share that and just get your reflections. I think that, first off, I think that...

• 57:52Speaker 00

  We all have a set of insecurities around not living up, mostly because, again, I really do think big tech has had, is, while it's a net good, incredible economic growth, job growth, I connect with my buddies from college, I get to build a business and market it less expensively, I can break through, voices that can bubble up just based on their talent. Teen suicide has skyrocketed since social went on mobile. It's not the only reason, but it's either number one or number two, according to my colleague Jonathan Haidt and Jean Twenge at San Diego State. I don't believe there's any reason that anyone under the age of 16 should be on social media where they are encouraged, young girls are encouraged to sexualize themselves, but if

• 58:37Speaker 00

  they start having suicidal ideation, they are sent an email that says verbatim, "Here are some images on suicide we thought you might find interesting." But also, it's created unreasonable expectations for a lot of young men and young women about what they need to look like, if they haven't made millions of dollars, if they aren't on a private jet going to Coachella, if they don't have a boyfriend with a six-pack, if they don't look just amazing all the time. I think it creates tremendous anxiety and unreasonable expectations. But I do, you know, so I would argue that, okay, so who's at fault? We're at fault. In that, as we keep hoping or waiting for the better angels of tech CEOs to show up, that's not going to happen. I've been working my whole life with CEOs.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  They're going to make incremental decisions to do whatever moves the stock price up. That's their job. That's capitalism. Their job is to take a set of resources, figure out an offering where they get more than they paid to garner those resources and create shareholder value. They will do anything to do that. That's their job. And then we're supposed to tax them such that we can build our roads, take care of our veterans, and have a set of laws so they don't get out of control, so that they don't lie and say, "No, smoking's not addictive," and then our mothers, our sisters, and our dads start dying, right? We have regulation. We are net beneficiaries from fossil fuels and pesticides, but we still have an EPA and an FDA. There's absolutely no regulation on big tech.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  There's more regulation in this mic than there is on big tech, because they have weaponized Washington and money and Citizens United. There are more full-time lobbyists living in Washington, DC. Working for Amazon, one company, than there are sitting US senators. So they have very effectively avoided all regulation to the point where they basically run unfettered, whether it's bots, whether it's harm to children, whether it's letting bad actors try and influence elections. And they, in my opinion, if your content can be reverse engineered to self-harm among teens, if your podcast, if we could prove statistically that your podcast was resulting in self-harm among teenage girls, this podcast would be shut down.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  You would be sued and you would eventually decide to go out of business.

• 1:00:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, well, if we were harming people appropriately, so.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  I would argue Big Tech does that and more every day. And these cases that just came down, actually one in LA that found Google liable. Do you realize that the New Mexico Attorney General, do you know what he did in his case? He created an account posing as a 12-year-old girl and within minutes, he was getting messages and solicitations from known sexual abusers. That was their first piece of evidence, that if you create an account and you say you're a 12-year-old girl, within hours, they were getting overtures from known sexual predators. So the fact that this company can target you and know that you're, that I'm wearing Warby Parkers and start serving me ads by looking at the screen, or know that I'm at Coachella listening to David Byrne and start serving me albums of David Byrne's greatest

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  hits, then they can figure out that a 12-year-old girl shouldn't be getting overtures from 55-year-old men.

• 1:01:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'll bracket that sentence, right, that very fair and very important statement, that if there were some balance of optimization towards real protections, that that is important.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  But they made, I think, $11 billion last year from people under the age of 18. But you ask who's to blame? We're to blame, because we haven't elected people who are willing to hold these companies accountable. And their sole mission is to get reelected. And in 97% of elections, whoever raises the most money gets reelected. And these companies are now, the fastest-growing expense line amongst Big Tech isn't AI, as a percentage basis, it isn't R&D, it isn't CapEx, it's lobbying. Because the greatest ROI in history is spending money on politicians. I give money to politicians because I'm getting more politically active. And it doesn't surprise me that they're whores. The most disappointing thing is what cheap whores they are.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  If I give $50,000 to a senator, he'll have dinner with me when he's in New York, or she. Because they have to, because the system is set up such that whoever raises the most money gets elected and big tech has figured that out. So until we have the judgment to elect people who are willing to stand up to big tech and actually implement safe and common sense regulation, I don't want them to go out of business, let our thoroughbreds run. I actually believe the American model of less regulation versus more is one of the reasons we're much more successful than Europe, which hasn't grown in 20 years. But this has gotten to a point where we seem to have a total lack of regard for our children's well-being and the fact that Americans hate each other and that we're kind of eating ourselves from the inside out.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  So again, we need an EPA and an FDA or some sort of equivalent for big tech, especially with AI. But I want to acknowledge the point, none of this could have happened without fossil fuels. There is a trade-off here, right? Pesticides are important for our food safety, but there is an FDA. We have decided to just let big tech run unfettered. And I think it's been gotten to the point where it's pretty damaging for society. I think we've robbed kids, my kids are in the kill zone, 15 and 18, I think they've been robbed of a lot of their youth. I understand this shit and I have a son who has device addiction, who will lie, take his phone, say he doesn't feel well, take his phone into the bathroom for 45 minutes and I have to bang on the door and jokingly scream, "Start masturbating."

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Because this kid is addicted to TikTok. What the British did to the Chinese in terms of getting them addicted to opium, I think that the Chinese via porous platforms that are shareholder-driven in a GRU are addicting our youth and we're going to raise a generation of civic nonprofit and military leaders who fucking hate America. We are teaching kids to hate each other, hate America, hate every special interest group, hate every ideology that doesn't fit their own and there's no grace around what it means and how fortunate are we to be American. And I think at the center of it is a total lack of regulation amongst these incredibly brilliant companies. The most technologically sophisticated, deepest-pocketed companies in the world are trying to

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  sequester our youth from us and they're stealing youth. The number of kids who see their friends every day has been cut in half the last 20 years. Men between the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less time outdoors, Andrew, than prison inmates. We are robbing youth because we refuse to regulate these companies. So do I want these companies to go away? Do I think they're bad people? No. But we have a system that values wealth and shareholder value above all. And so tech CEOs and their boards will make a series of incremental decisions regardless of the damage to the public. And we have a set of elected leaders that don't do their job. And that is they're there to prevent a tragedy of the commons. And it's Democrats and Republicans. So it

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  comes down to very boring shit. Unless we reform Citizens United, unless we de-gerrymander the United States Congress, money is going to win. And these companies have more money. But no, I would push back. I think these companies are starting to do a lot of damage to our youth. I'm worried my kids are going to grow up so used to getting DOPA so easily and squeezing it so fast, and this is your field, that we're flushing into society a series of young people who are so ready for addiction because they're so used to getting an automatic DOPA by just flipping out their phone really fast.

• 1:06:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  One thing that I don't think I've emphasized enough on this podcast, this and certainly not this, but other episodes, as well as a kind of reframe around the dopamine and phones. I'm not trying to correct you here, but I think it might be helpful for this discussion and for people listening to. We need to move our minds away from the idea that the phone is providing these dopamine hits because it's not. The behavior with social media, but phones generally, is a lot more akin to true clinical-grade obsessive-compulsive disorder. Colleagues of mine that work on obsessive-compulsive disorder, I just want to give a shout out to the pioneer of this field was a woman I just adored, Judith Rappaport.

• 1:06:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  She passed away recently. People can look up her obit. There's a really nice one in the Times.

• 1:06:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Identify the brain structures associated with this thing that we call OCD, right? Hand washing, scratching, hair pulling, you know, all the variations of it. What defines obsessive compulsive disorder is that the engagement in the behavior, the compulsion, doesn't relieve the obsession. So to call someone OCD because they need everything perfect, but then when it's perfect, they're like, okay, I can relax. That's not OCD. OCD is when you engage in a compulsive behavior over and over again, and all it does is serve to reinforce the obsession. That, to me, more closely mimics what I see in terms of phone use than the idea that it's like, no way, this amazing thing on the phone. That comes every once in a while, but after you've spent a day or so on social media

• 1:07:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  or on YouTube, we are all engaging in a much more passive, slow degradation kind of way that I'm sure impacts the dopamine pathway. In fact, OCD is directly tied to the dopamine pathway, so I'm not divorcing it from dopamine. But I think if we started to look at our relationship to the phone as more of an induced obsessive compulsive disorder than an addiction, I actually think that's one of the potential ways out, not just because words matter and concepts matter, but because I think in order to get out of that loop, you have to see yourself from the outside and you have to realize that you're being hijacked. I think right now, there's just so much incentive for being on it, for being in the bathroom, you're looking at the phone.

• 1:08:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Look, I'm not addicted to my phone, but I will tell you, there are days when I feel like I pick up that thing even though I don't want to.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that's different than addiction. I know what addiction feels like. That's not addiction. That's happening just reflexively. People aren't even thinking about it. The lack of awareness is just not there. So, you know, forgive me for going on this tangent, but as you're saying everything today, I'm trying to think solutions. And I know Mark, I actually am friendly with Mark, so I think they care. I do think they care. I think they've created something so big that it's very hard to navigate and keep up with shareholders and all this stuff. But I would love to see the world's relationship to their phones and social media change so that it is more in our individual control, more benevolent.

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  But that's against their economic interests and they'll fight that tooth and nail.

• 1:09:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  I wonder, I wonder if there is a way to incentivize that.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  Well, let's talk about that. So.

• 1:09:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm trying to think of solutions.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  So let's move to solutions. Um, one, antitrust. I don't think, I don't think Meta should have ever been allowed to buy Instagram. I think their ability, their scale of data suppresses any formidable competitor. Two thirds of all social media now goes to one company. And with a lack of competition, there's really no oxygen for a company that might say, we're not going to allow 18 year olds on here. Any content that's incendiary, anything that looks like it's been weaponized by bots or might be from a bad foreign actor, we're not going to allow it. I think there's a lot of parents and a lot of people that would like to be on that platform. The game's over. They've won. I, I don't think Google should have been allowed to buy YouTube. And people say, well, they're great companies. If YouTube was divested from Google, the next day, Google, uh, YouTube would decide

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  to start a basic search algorithm and Google would start another video platform. And we'd have two competitors and there'd be lower rents on labor and on advertisers. Competition is an amazing thing. These companies are a set of distinct monopolies that extract rents from labor, from the consumer and from the well being of America. So antitrust, Senator Klobuchar has done great work here. Basically, she says, I'm overrun. She's like, I got a staff of 60 people. There are 200 lawyers hired by Meta and Facebook who are doing nothing but getting in the way of anything to do with antitrust and giving money to people who will delay and obfuscate anything around antitrust. Two, removal of section 230 for algorithmically elevated content. Their basic premise is we're not in the, we're not a media company.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  We're just a platform. We're just putting stuff on a board. Well, okay, but if you decide this content gets more views, they elevate it. They make the decision to elevate it. And sometimes the content they elevate is not good for the mental health of America. It tears of the fabric of America. I think if you algorithmically elevate content, you should be subject to the same liability as a News Corp. When News Corp and Fox told its on air anchors to repeat a lie that they knew was a lie, that Smartmatic voting machines had been weaponized by Hugo Chavez and they knew it was a lie, and then Smartmatic sues them and says, you caused this economic harm. They had to pay $750 million fine.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  What happened on Fox was a dumpster fire compared to the nuclear mushroom cloud of what happened on Facebook that day. But these nascent platforms, which in 1997, we were trying to give them running room, those protections are in place for tech platforms that are not in place for media companies. So if you algorithmically elevate content, you are now a media company, you should be subject to the same liability as every other media company. And then finally, three, age gate this shit. The downside of Instagram and YouTube for 15-year-olds is way greater than the upside. And people who say to me, Scott, this is about parenting, that's a tell for they don't have kids. This is where they get their homework. And my colleague at NYU, Adam Alter, who also has an appointment at the psychology department,

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  said, when you take kids off of screens totally, it actually is more damaging to their mental health because they're ostracized from all social activity. So, and what's happened? The greatest uptick in school scores in recent history is when they do what my buddy Jonathan Haidt suggests do, these schools do, and they ban their phones. So I think there are common sense solutions. They keep a lot of the good stuff these companies do while recognizing, well, maybe a 14-year-old shouldn't be spending seven hours a day on TikTok or Instagram while his or her single mother is at work and can't police it. So I think there are common sense solutions and a meeting of the minds here, but everything I propose, they will spend tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to get in the way of and make sure it never happens again.

• 1:12:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  I really appreciate your answer. I like to think that they are listening, especially in the wake of these recent lawsuits where they had to pay out, granted, a drop in the ocean compared to their total revenue, but those were very public cases and maybe I'm overly optimistic. I like to think that they care enough to pay attention. I mean, look, many of those guys, it's mostly guys running those companies now. YouTube used to be a woman, but now almost all of them are run by guys. They have kids. I can guarantee their kids don't spend a ton of time on their phones.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  They send them to schools where they're not allowed to be on screens.

• 1:13:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  They're doing their job. We're not doing ours. I don't even kind of resent them. I think Mark Zuckerberg has been especially damaging, but they're doing their job. Capitalist society has to have for-profit companies that, within the bounds of law, make a lot of money. Look, you can't, you can't have a navy, you can't have innovation, you can't have... You know, parks unless you have the tax revenue to support this shit. So we need our thoroughbreds to run. They're great companies, but there's basic common sense regulation that should be applied that they've managed to delay and obfuscate and ensure it never happens to them.

• 1:14:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives insights into your heart health, hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.

• 1:14:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back where I want them, in range. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, it's always been overly complicated and expensive. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code HUBERMAN for a $50 credit towards your membership. Glad you mentioned the Navy. Recently, I was invited out to the Naval Academy in Annapolis and had the privilege of giving a talk to 4,000 midshipmen, which includes both young men and women. It was an amazing experience. I'll tell you this, a guy who's been a guest on this podcast was the one that organized

• 1:15:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  this, Coleman Ruiz, has amazing life stories, not particularly public facing, but amazing story of his own life. And, okay, so you go there, and all these young men and women are, of course, in their, you know, cadet fatigues and going about. They live two to a dorm room. They do PT, physical activity, every morning at 5:00 a.m. Lunch was the most incredible experience. You walk into a dining hall with thousands of men and women, tons of noise. A bell goes off. Everyone's quiet. Everyone sits down. A bell goes off. Everyone starts eating. 15 minutes later, bell goes off. Everyone stands up and walks out. Everyone has to play a sport competitively.

• 1:16:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Everyone there is forbidden from using their phone.

• 1:16:22Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Most all of the day and night. One member of this dorm room might be studying while their roommate is sleeping. Every single question was about how to be a better human being physically, mentally, emotionally. And this visit was right in the like early days of the recent war with Iran. So they had a lot to worry about. And they're very close to all these things. A young woman came up to me and told me that she's part of the, you know, the, the space program now, the military space program. Amazing, like just a complete contrast to everything that we're talking about. I thought to myself like, goodness, like these people, young people like this still exist.

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  All firm handshakes, all eye contact. And by the way, every color you could possibly imagine, every color you could possibly imagine, you know, every stature.

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  Every income class.

• 1:17:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Every income class. I would ask people, where are you from? You know, part of the meet and greet, the problem was they were like, you know, my problem is I actually want to know about what, where people are from, what their name is, what they're interested in. It can just take days, right? But it was incredible. And I thought to myself, okay, there's hope. Like we, we came out of there, our team was like, yeah, like there's hope. Okay, it's associated with the military. I'm sure people will, will scratch at that point, but like, thank God that these kids and this thing that we call the Navy exists. Because it gives, it was so inspiring. It made me level up as a 50 year old man who thinks these guys shit mostly together, emphasis on mostly. I was like, whoa, I like step it up. Now, probably their only quote unquote flaw was I did a poll, there were a lot of questions

• 1:18:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  about nicotine. And I asked approximately what percentage of the room takes nicotine every day? And I would say about 20 to 30% of the hands in the room went up. Nicotine is in major use in young people.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  Are they using the?

• 1:18:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  They are on nicotine. Yeah. Which by the way, don't cause cancer, but yes, it's very addictive, raise, raise blood pressure and you know, I, I'm not encouraging people to do it. But this brings me around to a separate point. I just wanted to kind of paint that picture. But to a separate point, you and I have never had a public argument, nor are we going to now about alcohol or about cannabis. But you and I share somewhat different views on, on alcohol. I've been. Very vocal and perhaps our most popular episode ever was the episode on alcohol. I didn't foresee that, but and the deal is zero is better than any if we're strictly looking at health.

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:18:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Two per week is probably fine. If you're gonna drink more, you should probably do a bunch of other things to reduce inflammation and offset it and get good sleep and et cetera, et cetera. I'm not telling people what to do. They should just know what you're doing. You've made the argument quite aptly that alcohol can be an important, so show lubricant for young and older people so that they can socialize and have a life. I worry that if young people now drink more, they're gonna end up drinking alone. They're gonna end up masturbating to porn more alone. They're gonna end up with more hangovers after all their alone behavior. I think what you've argued for is the notion of healthy fraternity, healthy dating and

• 1:19:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  socializing. You've mentioned bars a couple of times, alcohol as something that can bring people together in a positive way. If you don't mind, if you could elaborate on that, and maybe I'll just toss out cannabis as another one, because cannabis has problems and I'll acknowledge benefits of its own.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  So I want to go to the first thing first is I want to just touch on Navy. I went to Annapolis when I was 17 and it was because my dad was looking to get out of paying for college and decided I should go to Annapolis and he took me and we did a tour. And it, you know, we were very sophisticated and it became so clear so fast that I was totally unqualified for Annapolis. Like the kids, the average SAT, these are, these are the finest young men and women in the world. And, and also you have to get a recommendation from a senator and it was just so ridiculous that we were even there. I was just not of that quality and that standard. But my dad was in the Royal Navy and decided, go to Annapolis because we don't have to pay for it. Anyways, but that was the last time I was at Annapolis.

• 1:20:33Speaker 00

  But if I could have one policy, so I'm advising a lot of Democrats running for president, which is like 40 of them right now. You all claim they're not running, they're all running. If you call me and, and say you're really interested in my viewpoint, it means you want my money and you're running for president. And I just say, look, that's fine. Come on the podcast and I'll write you a check. If I could have one policy, one blanket, if I had a magic one, one policy, it'd be mandatory national service. If you look at the lowest levels of young adult depression in the West, it's two countries. It's Israel and Singapore. And despite all the existential threats facing Israel, they, what does mandatory national service do? It gives you the sense that you're serving the agency of something bigger than yourself. It gives you purpose, you're handling dangerous equipment.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  It's the great equalizer. You don't care that this gay kid is totally different than you. You respond to his or her character incompetence. Because if you're getting fired on, you don't give a shit how rich their father is. All you want to know is, is this person good at what they do? And you put people's lives in your hands, and they put their life in your hands. And you're serving in the, in the agency of something bigger than yourself. I spent time with an IDF battalion in Israel, and I had the same kind of experience it sounds like you had at Annapolis. These are young, beautiful, fit people, outside all day, meeting friends, mentors, and mates. In Singapore, the president there, who's arguably one of the greatest leaders of the last century, said, "This is the most religiously diverse society in the world. We're going to have ethnic violence.

• 1:22:03Speaker 00

  There'll be a strong man who will weaponize this diversity and get people to turn against each other, so we need a different religion, and it's going to be the flag. And we need to, we need to get people praying to the flag again." And if you look at the great legislation in America in the 60s and 70s, which was probably the most productive, unified time in America, it's because many of our elected leaders had all served in the same uniform. And they saw themselves as Americans before they saw themselves as Republicans or Democrats. And I'm not just saying military service, senior care, donating time at a no-kill animal shelter, being a smoke jumper. There's a lot of ways to serve. But I think young Americans would benefit so enormously from getting outside of their own circle and seeing just how wonderful America and Americans are.

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  And, and having a chance, and not only that, people say, "Well, it's easy for you to say you've aged out." I can tell you, as a father of boys, if we set it up well and invested in it, I think they would really enjoy a rotation through different parts of America and different opportunities to serve. So, the one thing I would do, going back to Annapolis and the IDF and what they do in Singapore, is mandatory national service on drinking.

• 1:23:11Speaker 00

  First, my acknowledgement, as it relates to the intake of any substance, if it's Andrew Huberman or Scott Galloway, defer to Andrew Huberman's advice. I just want to say that upfront. You just have the qualifications and the main expertise here. I think personally, the risks to a 25-year-old liver are dwarfed by the risks of social isolation. And I worry that with 40% fewer pubs now post-COVID in Britain, and a lack of mating and a lack of connection, that the data I've seen, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 95% of people are able to integrate alcohol and drugs into their life without serious consequences. If you have a history of addiction, if you, for whatever

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  reason, don't enjoy it, then by all means, avoid it. If people are telling you that you're having an issue or a problem, or it's getting in the way of your work life, or you're one of those people that gets violent or mean under the influence, then for God's sakes, tone it down. But what I ask people is to look back on their younger days and say, what is the most important thing in your life? Relationships, friendships, finding someone to mate with. And I ask them, did alcohol play a role? You know, it's not easy to come in and lean in for a kiss without a glass of wine. Or let me put it this way, it is easier with a glass of wine. It's a lot of fun. I smoked a lot of pot and I drank a lot of alcohol in my twenties and in college, and it created a lot of wonderful bonding moments. And so what I'm saying, there's a balance and a trade-off. And what I would

• 1:24:36Speaker 00

  suggest is that everyone needs to make their own decision. But what scares me is the anti-alcohol movement in remote work has led to a level of isolation and fewer moments where people can bond, where people are willing to take a risk and go up to a strange person and say, hey, what's going on? So I worry that the anti-alcohol movement, what I see among young people, is that while they've demonized alcohol, it's not that they're not getting high, they're just doing a shit-ton of drugs. And the thing I don't like about many of these drugs is that they're more solo activity or small group activity. I think alcohol is a group of people, I like to think. Meeting new strangers. Whereas when I was in college, all the dudes who were doing cocaine,

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  it was because they had no sexual currency and they would sequester a woman who liked cocaine and go into a bathroom.

• 1:25:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's creepy as fuck.

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Totally creepy as fuck. And eventually everyone's like, if a dude's into cocaine, it means he has no game. I find with people when they do drugs, it's a small group of people and they sequester and it's isolating. Whereas with alcohol, and to a certain extent with marijuana, I found, it's more social and more bonding. So absolutely be cognizant of your addiction history. Absolutely be mindful of that or any other substance you're addicted to. But I believe, and I've said this, I've said this on Bill Maher a bunch, and I've gotten some shit, but I think there's some truth here. I think young people need to drink more, go out and make a series of bad decisions that might pay off. I don't think there's anything wrong with some alcohol. I worry that the risks of loneliness far outweigh

• 1:26:08Speaker 00

  the risks of alcohol and that alcohol has been demonized as something that if you take one drip of alcohol, drink of alcohol, you're going to get cancer or you're going to become an addict. And I don't think the data's there to support that.

• 1:26:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I really appreciate the candid expression of where you stand. I agree that isolation is worse than alcohol and it's compounded by alcohol. So to make that point clear, I went to UC Santa Barbara. We majored in drinking.

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  Speaking of alcohol.

• 1:26:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  It was like, it was part of the general education.

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  I remember they had sand in the dorms. I'm like, why didn't I go to school here?

• 1:26:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, you know, it did select for alcoholism if people had that predisposition and you had to be disciplined to get your work done. You know, my messaging around alcohol was, it was intended to land in three places. One, people who don't like drinking but felt that they had to, got a great reason to not drink. Many, many people wrote to me and said, "Thank you. I always feel like garbage after drinking. I don't want to drink. Now I understand why I feel like garbage."

• 1:27:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's not that I was casting it toward a particular age group, but there are many people who hit their 40s or 50s and they're like, God, I'm aging fast and I look like shit and I sleep like shit and my workouts are no good and you might be drinking too much, right? And then there are the optimizers. There are people that are really just going for maximum vitality, not just longevity, but maximum vitality, which is, to me, one of the most important things. In any case, people should do as they wish, but know what they're doing, provided they're not harming anyone else. There's one thing that I wanted, you know, lump in with this discussion about alcohol and your statement, which on the top contour, I totally agree with. Go out, drink and make a few bad decisions and probably some good ones, but Bad-ish. Bad-ish, right. So this is the thing, phones.

• 1:27:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. Somebody says the wrong thing, they loosen up too much, now it's not a problem. Three years ago, you might be sitting in front of HR, your classmates might isolate you, right? You were in a fraternity. I wasn't in a fraternity. I grew up in the fraternity of skateboarding, punk rock music, and just the fraternity of Y chromosomes. Guys drink, they start saying stupid shit. With phones around, stupid shit is recorded. When stupid shit is recorded, it can be very harmful. And when you're drinking, you make less filtered decisions about what to say than when you're not drinking. So I'm not pushing back in that sense, but I could understand why a guy in his 20s or

• 1:28:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  30s would be afraid, a guy that would never, ever, ever push himself on a woman, let alone something far worse, would never, ever drug somebody or anything. So I'm not talking about the Bill Cosby examples of this. I'm talking about the fear that exists in a lot of young guys and probably should exist in a lot of young women too nowadays, based on what we've observed in cancel culture. In particular, I'm just gonna say, a lot of white women are afraid of the Karen movement, right? That if they say anything, I think even beloved Billie Eilish, whose music I love, was called out for something she did, a sort of impersonation of an Asian person at some point. Always gonna happen to famous people. Right? Okay, always gonna happen, right? But people see famous people get into these situations, they go, oh my gosh, so do I

• 1:29:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  think Billie Eilish is a great, no, and I love her music. And she was mortified and she apologized. But it's enough to make people go.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 1:29:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  And like, maybe I just stay in my room and like scroll on Instagram. So you can kind of get why the the fear of drinking might also compound some of this, you know, social media stuff that we're talking about.

• 1:29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I want to acknowledge the point. I would like to say, or I hope that at some point, I'm really glad a camera wasn't following me around 24 by 7 when I was 18. I can't imagine.

• 1:29:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  That one time you said that one dumb thing, right?

• 1:29:52Speaker 00

  I just can't imagine. What I do think we are headed to, though, I'd like to think, is that in an era of social media and phones, that slowly but surely, we're heading to a point of more grace, where we forgive people, especially young people. So, and there's been a bunch of movements for a lot of young people to things I really disagreed with on campus after October the 7th. I was less angry at them than some of the faculty because I'm like, I cut an 18 year old a lot of grace, right? Or I tried to. The thing I would push back on is that I think there's certain looking glasses in a people's soul. And one of like, how they treat their pets and how they behave when they're drunk. And what I find is for people who, for every person who would say something stupid, there's more people when they get drunk who say, you know, I just think you're wonderful. I'm

• 1:30:36Speaker 00

  so impressed by you. Or walk up to a woman and say, I just love your dress. Or God, you have such a beautiful smile. Or just walk up to her to begin with and say, and express interest. Expressing interest to someone is a wonderful thing.

• 1:30:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or do you want to dance?

• 1:30:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, it says, I, it says, I saw you and by the way you move and the way you smile, I, I, I, I want you. I'm interested in you. That's a wonderful fucking thing. And so my sense is that for, for every negative thing, it may, of course, increase someone's, if someone's bad judgment is, is revealed in an awful way, they got bigger problems than alcohol. What it also does is lower inhibitions. And I generally think the majority of people are good people. And I have found that the majority of my friends and the majority of people I'm with, when they have a little bit of alcohol, it lowers their inhibitions and they're more likely to hug you. And they're more likely to say how much they appreciate the friendship, you know?

• 1:31:37Speaker 00

  When I was younger, I don't know if you ever did this, when I had a few drinks, I used to call my mom, you know, and tell her how much she meant to me.

• 1:31:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Tell my mom hear that, please.

• 1:31:46Speaker 00

  But I think that alcohol, to a certain extent, without getting into issues of abuse, which are much bigger, lowers your inhibitions, but you get to see, to a certain extent, that real person, and I know a lot of people will say, well, that's pathetic that you have to be the real you under the influence, but I think a lot of people reveal some wonderful things about themselves and also have the courage to reveal those things to other people. And I worry that there's so many barriers now that people, young people, just aren't connecting. So I just want to acknowledge the point. I think you have to be really cognizant. It's not a great idea unless you know you can handle alcohol to drink at work, at a professional function. It can fuck up your whole career.

• 1:32:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, I mean, one thing that I observed coming up through the academic ranks, and that just, I could not believe it, that at every gathering where you have graduate students and faculty members and postdocs, it was like the happy hour was like, sort of the highlight of the meeting for many people, and it became the place where, in theory, everyone meets at the bar to talk about the data from the day, right? Like at these meetings. In reality, 90% of the problems that existed between faculty and students and postdocs and faculty and faculty that were independently married and all that stuff, alcohol facilitated that. I really believe that. I saw it over and over and over again.

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  It caused a lot of problems.

• 1:33:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Caused an immense number of problems, and it was funded by grants. I mean, I'm not, like, I'm a big proponent of trying to, and I have worked very, very hard on the phone to try and keep NIH funding at least from, to not getting cut, and it looks like it hasn't, to not get the indirects cut, this is kind of academic, you know, inside ball stuff, but it looks like, you know, it could be far better, but, you know, at least the cuts that were gonna happen didn't happen. So I, the NIH funded my career. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the NIH. I had grants, reviewed grants, et cetera. But the idea that you could spend money on alcohol, right, back, way back when, and then people were gathering around alcohol, it created a lot of problems. Now, students drinking with other students, less of an issue.

• 1:33:45Speaker 00

  Let me, let me propose something to get your reaction.

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  I think they should study and thoughtfully consider lowering the drinking age back to 18. I live in the UK, and see by your face where this is going. I live in the UK.

• 1:33:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Military drinking age 18. I mean, I like some of the things that.

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  Well, if you're in the military, you can drink under the age of 21 because the idea is that if you're going to die for your country, you should be able, you're adult enough to order a drink.

• 1:34:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  At least the logic is there.

• 1:34:07Speaker 00

  That makes sense, right? But in the UK, if you're with an adult at a meal, you can order a beer at 17 and even without an adult at the age of 18 in a pub, you can order a beer. And when my son comes home, he doesn't do it as often as I would like, but when my son comes home on the weekends from boarding school, I like to take him to a local pub, and we have a beer. And I found out that after one beer, he's more inclined to tell me a little bit about what's going on with him. And as a father, all you really want, you just really want conversation with your kids. You want to know what's going on with them. And so, he doesn't get drunk, he's not into alcohol, he listens to you, he listens to other people, he's very wary of it. But I find that easing young men and young women into alcohol as opposed to 21 and then

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  they kind of go, I don't know, I wonder if we should be lowering the drinking age. And the reason we raised it was Mothers Against Drunk Driving were very effective and very on point because of all the young people who are dying in automobile accidents.

• 1:35:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  I remember that era.

• 1:35:03Speaker 00

  I think it's gone way down because of Uber and because of airbags. So, I'm proposing, would it make sense to do a study on whether you'd have more social connection and perhaps less alcoholism later in life if you let kids ease into it at the age of 18? And if they can be drafted, we're now trying to get, you know, the administration is proposing they be drafted, so if a kid can be drafted, shouldn't he or she have the judgment to know when they can order a beer or not?

• 1:35:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  All great arguments, I didn't know we were going to end up.

• 1:35:31Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, you talk about cannabis. I want to get your view.

• 1:35:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  I smoked a shit ton of pot in college, I can make a bong out of any household item, I learned every line from Planet Apes.

• 1:35:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know how to make a pipe out of an apple? That's like a 90s trick.

• 1:35:45Speaker 00

  Dude, that's sophomore. I can go much better than that. Anyways, but then, 22, got a job at Morgan Stanley, got very focused on getting my shit together, and I basically didn't smoke for 20 or 25 years. Now, I have trouble sleeping, I have trouble winding my brain down, and I take edibles. I do edibles probably twice a week. If I'm amped or think I'm going to have a tough time sleeping, I'll take a 5-milligram edible, the stuff that takes you down, I forget which one that is. And it's been an enhancement to my life, but I'm reading a lot of stuff about potential psychosis or whatever.

• 1:36:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not for you. You're like, the psychosis predisposition doesn't apply. You would already know. You'd be psychotic by now.

• 1:36:22Speaker 00

  There you go. Or I just haven't acknowledged it. But it's been accretive to my life. I really enjoy THC and I do it packaged, so I know where it's come from. I like edibles because I like the dosing of it. But I would argue that THC is something, when my mom had stomach cancer, I was living with her and the only thing that worked for her nausea was marijuana. And I found myself, literally Andrew, on the streets of downtown Las Vegas trying to score marijuana because I was too scared to travel with it. And this was 20, July of 2004. And I thought, Jesus Christ, here I am on a street corner in this weird

• 1:37:03Speaker 00

  place in Vegas, trying to score marijuana for my mom who has stomach cancer. So, you know, I think there's some benefits to, well, I'll stop there. The THC usage, I enjoy. I think it's been additive to my life.

• 1:37:18Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 1:38:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

• 1:38:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I think with THC, it's highly individual. Young males in particular, who have a predisposition, genetic predisposition to psychosis or bipolar disorder, need to be really careful, especially with high concentration THC, not just the edibles, but they do need to be careful. I think that young, again, mostly young men who are challenged with apathy, obesity, self-loathing, porn, masturbation addiction, shouldn't be using THC. I think high agency, that seems to be the term nowadays, right? The guys that you mentor, you know, a year in, who are working out three times a week, and they're, they have a goal, and they're hopefully seeking or in a relationship, they

• 1:39:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  have a different self-view of themselves, and yeah, I don't see why that couldn't be a part of their week. It'll nuke their REM sleep, you know, to be specific, if they come off, their dreams are gonna be wild, because they'll get more REM sleep. But creatives, there are a number of creatives who can use it appropriately to increase focus, get them out of anxiety, or get them to cope with anxiety, and then there are just as many people that take it, and it makes them incredibly anxious. So I think it's, it's sort of on what backdrop, and I think the alcohol thing also is on what backdrop. If somebody's overweight, not working out, you know, a guy in their twenties or thirties that's dealing with, let's just paint a picture here, he's like playing video games, he's not like morbidly obese or anything, but he's like kind of overweight, and he's kind

• 1:40:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  of, feels like shit, shouldn't be drinking and smoking weed, he should be going to the gym and get himself in shape, and then maybe have a couple beers a week with his buddies. So that context really matters.

• 1:40:15Speaker 00

  Well, I would argue, never do substances alone, and, and during the week, try not to do substances if you gotta be on point the next day, that it's something to be, you know, it's a recreation. The thing, I'm curious to get your take on, is one of the things I'm working with some young men on, is I think the most under-researched addiction is porn, and my fear is that

• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  I mean, if you look at what, again, I go back to big tech. Big tech's trying to convince young men. Why go through the pecking order and the effort of trying to develop a friend group? When you have Reddit and Discord? Why go through the bullshit of putting on a tie and trying to go into the office? And make a good living and navigate the corporate world? When you think you can make money trading stocks? Or crypto on Robinhood or Coinbase? And why would you go through the effort, the expense, the potential rejection? Of trying to have a kindness practice, look good, work out, endure rejection? All the expenditures of going out and trying to get a date? When you have lifelike porn? And I'll use myself as an example. When I was at UCLA? I graduated from UCLA with a 2.27 GPA.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  Which isn't easy, because it means you almost... I failed nine classes, right? And I still graduated. And by the way, talk about a different age. We were both children of the University of California, UC San Diego. Talk about how blessed we are. Talk about how just what winds hurricane-like winds? We had in our sails of prosperity. When I applied to UCLA, admissions rate was 74%. Now it's nine. Graduated with a 2.27. You know what happened? Berkeley let me into graduate school with a 2.27 GPA. But anyways, back to UCLA. One of my motivators for going on campus? Was that I... There was a non-zero probability that I might meet a woman? Establish contact with her? See my buddies? Maybe get her to a fraternity party? Or get her to go on a date with me? And maybe at some point be physical with her?

• 1:42:08Speaker 00

  That was an enormous motivator for me. If I had lifelike porn? On my phone, on my computer screen 24 by 7? I don't know if I would have been as motivated to go on campus as much. And I... There was little margin for error? In terms of going on campus a few less times? And I worry that that mojo, that desire? To quite frankly, go out and make your own bad porn? Is being reduced so much with lifelike porn? That men aren't evolving into? Risk-taking? Aggressive in a positive way? Men who are motivated? To dress well, to work out, to approach strange women? To go through... I mean, it is hard. It is hard to find a partner. And what I say to these men is? Welcome to the fucking work week. It's been hard forever. That's the whole point.

• 1:42:53Speaker 00

  Women are choosier than men, and there's a reason. Right? We're trying to spread our seed to the four corners of the earth? They put up a much finer screen to pick the smartest, fastest and strongest seed? And that's the reason why our kids are going to be smarter and taller than us? That's the way of the world. But when you reduce that desire? It's going to get in the way of not only you finding a mate, but developing the skills to be successful in all other parts of your life. So back to the basic premise. I wonder and worry if porn is the most under researched addiction and the damage it's having on young men. Because what I see amongst my colleagues, and I'd be curious if, I actually spoke to a really thoughtful woman about this, who's an addiction professor at Stanford. I'm sure you know her, I forget her name.

• 1:43:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Anna Lemke.

• 1:43:35Speaker 00

  Anna Lemke.

• 1:43:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, she runs our dual diagnosis.

• 1:43:37Speaker 00

  Fantastic.

• 1:43:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing woman, amazing human being.

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  Immediately when we got off the podcast, said to me, if your marijuana ever becomes a problem, just call me. And she was sincere.

• 1:43:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's totally, that's totally Anna.

• 1:43:47Speaker 00

  Do you sense it? Immediately I'm like.

• 1:43:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  She's the real deal.

• 1:43:49Speaker 00

  I'm like, do you sense it's a problem? I'm like, hold me, Anna. Anyways, but I don't think there's enough really good research out there on porn, because I don't think people want to be known as the porn professor. And so I worry that we really don't know the impact. And what I see anecdotally is that I see a lot of young men who don't have that healthy fire. Because they think that they can just, they think, oh. It's like in the, in the last 20 years, the guys who didn't have their own game or didn't want to be that successful, they would go to some low income country and basically become sexpats. This has become, I think, a much broader version of that. That rather than level up, you'd rather just sit home and get a reasonable facsimile of a relationship or sex with porn.

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  I wonder if that is more damaging than, than people, than people estimate right now.

• 1:44:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, it's a really important topic. And it's one that people contact me about all the time. Your analogy of what's happening with porn to sexpats, we should probably explain what's, expats are people that leave the United States. I'm not sure everyone's going to follow that one. And sexpats are the, it's this community of people that, I think they go to Southeast Asia or something, and where they can, or South America, where they can essentially buy whatever experience they want.

• 1:45:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:45:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  In general, I have to assume, truly never done this, nor do I have any interest, but I have to assume that these are men who just basically figure, well, that's low effort, once they have the money. And. Real dating, real, real sex, if I may, you know, is it takes some work and it takes some learning and you know, especially if you want to be told genuinely good job and, and, and know that it's true. It's gonna take, you're gonna, you have to get some reps in there. So, um, put your ego on the line, um, learn to communicate, learn to listen, all that stuff. The idea that porn is, is the much broader and more destructive, um, analogous thing I think is, is bullseye. The moment you said, I'm like, I think people need to hear that. Do you want to be that guy?

• 1:45:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think, I think with any behavioral change, you know, the neuroscientist in me says, okay, we have circuits for like, things that are aversive to us, like you have to engage the aversion and you have to engage the, the appetitive aspect, right? Like so that there's a win and then there's something to avoid. I really think in order to get any real behavioral change, you need to push away from something and towards something else. Okay. So I think that porn, I mean, it's our most fundamental wiring. The two, the two circuits in the brain that really crank out dopamine. Okay. Circuits for reproduction, sex and anger. There's this incredible study by a very controversial guy named Robert Heath in the 1960s. He was a, a neurosurgeon who would stimulate different areas of the brain.

• 1:46:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  And unfortunately he was, um, into conversion therapy. So, you know, he appropriately got run out of science for trying to make gay people straight by stimulating certain areas of the brain. Yeah. He was kind of a piece of shit person, but again, let's look at what he did separate from that. Immediately people were like, I don't care about his data, but he gave people with electrodes in their brain, in certain studies, the option to stimulate anywhere they wanted. They could stimulate and get sexual arousal. They could get laughter. They could feel drunk. All the things we're talking about really. They could feel soothing of the sort that their mother was holding them. The area that they chose to stimulate the most is in the central midline nucleus of the thalamus, an area that my lab has spent a lot of time on in other situations. And they would just lever press and lever press and lever press for the feeling of mild frustration

• 1:47:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  and anger. Because the arousal associated with it is its own reinforcement. As a student of mine who's now hopefully soon to be a faculty member, I won't name the university, but she has an offer from a phenomenal university. Her name is Lindsay Saleh and she's worked on this

• 1:47:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  in a very, very mechanistic way. When we're angry, when we're frustrated.

• 1:47:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  The link to the dopamine circuitry is just pounded out. We just all day long, and what's amazing is it doesn't attenuate. There's no threshold for anger. The more angry you get, the more frustrated you get, the more arousal you feel from that, you never satiate. There's no post-coital bliss. There's no, "My belly is so full, I feel like I'm going to explode." And so, this gets to the social media thing, too. That's the circuit that I worry about. And I think that's the circuit that, yes, I think tech, big tech has tapped into whether they want to or not. And I think that that's the one we really have to be careful of. And I've experienced it myself. I think I actually, in this moment, I'm experiencing a little bit of it, like that kind of arousal of like, yes, the forward center of mass that we feel.

• 1:48:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  But when it's fuck them, like fuck the Republicans and, you know, or fuck the left or the extreme woke, I mean, that's, people are just high all day long on their own anger and frustration. And I think we just see it everywhere. And I raise my hand, I'm sure I'm guilty of this at times, too.

• 1:48:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's illuminating, because I correlate my anger to a pathway to feeling depressed. I struggle with anger and depression. And it usually starts as something triggers me, I get really angry. And then I feel like my blood turns to some sort of corrosive acid, and it just wears me down.

• 1:48:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's adrenaline.

• 1:48:55Speaker 00

  And I'm just depleted, I'm just depleted for two or three days. So I was, I have a practice around trying to calm my anger, but just hearing you say that, occasionally, on one of my podcasts, when I see something that's inherently wrong, and I point it out or ingest, I do feel like a rush, like I'm being a leader or a baller or pointing something out.

• 1:49:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  You are. I mean, I will say, you know, testosterone, a conversation we've had a little bit before offline, at the level of the brain, it makes effort feel good. Anyway, I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent, but I'd like your thoughts about how testosterone can be leveraged for good versus bad, and maybe even, I don't know that we put everyone on testosterone, I'm not suggesting that it can nuke your fertility if you don't do other things to offset it. So, kids, be careful. But what are your thoughts on testosterone and just sort of proactive?

• 1:49:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Male behavior, testosterone in adults, older generations taking testosterone.

• 1:49:53Speaker 00

  Well, I'm one of them. I'm on T-therapy, and I do it because I quite frankly want to feel younger. It makes me stronger in the gym, better erections, even weird things like my skin. The way I would describe T-therapy is it just kind of took me back three or five years to in the gym. So I'm an advocate for it. I'm, I used to do it under the guidance of a doctor, which I'm doing, but I'm a fan of it. And I think you've done really interesting work about hormone replacement theory. I've listened to a lot of your work on it. The argument around testosterone and masculinity, I think, is a really important one in the political spectrum because to the far-right's credit, they recognize the problem with young men before anybody else. The problem is they conflate masculinity with coarseness and cruelty, and their solution was to take non-whites and women back to the 50s.

• 1:50:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Some of them. I, I'm not trying to protect them, but I would say, you know, I don't know his political leanings, but my friend Jaco Willink has daughters. He's not that guy you just described.

• 1:50:48Speaker 00

  No, I'm talking about the far-right. I'm talking about whether it's Donald Trump or, you know, quote-unquote, the traditional manosphere. It's about the subordination of women, and it's about demonstrating a certain harshness and coarseness, and I would argue cruelty, and conflating that with masculinity. Whereas the far-left, and this isn't helpful either, their advice to young men is to act more like a woman, and that they conflate masculinity with toxicity. And there has to be something in the middle. There has to be an aspirational form of masculinity. And I would argue that we need to celebrate that initiation, aggressiveness. All right, you know, Jimmy Carr, who's one of my idols now, says, "All right, you can, you can demonstrate cruelty, or you can demonstrate valor. You

• 1:51:31Speaker 00

  can be a lover, or you can be an addict." And Richard Reeves has this great saying. He's like, "You want a man to be invaluable in a shipwreck, but acceptable at a dance." So there is a certain needle to be threaded here. But the Carnegie Award, which is given out to people who put their own physical safety in danger to save someone else's physical safety. It's literally the running into a burning house award. You see a car on fire, you put your own safety in harm's way to try and protect someone else's physical well-being. They gave out 83 awards last year. Seventy-five of them are men. Men are more prone to take those types of not only bad risks, but good risks. And we need to celebrate that. Now, you need both. You need both on the, by the way, on the combat field, because men are more likely

• 1:52:15Speaker 00

  to rush out and try and save their comrade. But women are more likely to say, let's not be stupid. Let's think this through. You need both of those. I mean, this is the great thing, is that both energy, when they come together, make a better world. But we seem to be very suspicious of that masculine energy right now. And I think it needs to be celebrated. There needs to be someone who sees movement in the tribe and immediately grabs the spear and goes and tries and kill it for the benefit of the community. Who wants to put people on Mars and makes these crazy, ridiculous investments that make no sense and is super aggressive around these things. I think that's a wonderful energy. And when I went to the Democratic National Convention, I saw a parade of special interest groups, talking about the very real issues they all face.

• 1:52:59Speaker 00

  But I didn't see one mention of the group that has fallen further faster than any group in recent history, and that is young men.

• 1:53:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I think that's because, based on the feedback I've received, for instance, when we had Terry Reel on the podcast, who talks about, you know, some balance of masculine and feminine phenotypes, and therapy, and partner-partner communication, and these kinds of things. The pushback that I always get for, or I got there, not because of Terry specifically, was as long as we can't talk about toxic femininity, these were clearly men writing to me, then this whole discussion feels imbalanced. That's how they feel. They feel like there's the, this idea that there are good men, and there are bad men, and there are really bad men. Totally agree. I, you know, I'm, I've got the optics of a, you know, macaque monkey buying folded

• 1:53:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  on LSD when it comes to certain thing, members of our species, but when it comes to men, I grew up in a big group of boys, et cetera, a big group of men, I get it. That statement is true. There are great ones, there are eh ones, and then there are like, really bad dudes. So, when you talk about manosphere, you know, I would say, the, if I had my way, manosphere would apply to just the really bad ones, because that name has become synonymous with really bad men. Okay, we can come back to that perhaps, but... There is this issue that no one is allowed to say there's wonderful femininity. There's women with issues, right? And then there's bad women. You're not allowed to say it. The only women that I can have that conversation with are lesbians.

• 1:54:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  They were the ones who explained to me, there are truly bad women. And I said, well, how come no one talks about that except lesbians? Because, and they said, ah, because we are living in a time now where men talking about women or having things they wish for women to do differently itself is seen as toxic. That they've, that women feel, this is what I was told, so I'm regurgitating, that they've suffered so much at the hands of men that we need like a good 20 or 30 years before we're ready to get to that conversation. Which of course, for young men growing up, just like makes them feel like, okay, it's all, it's all on us. And that's good. Like, agency advocacy for one's own life is important. Stay out of the really bad men category and ideally the not so good men category too.

• 1:55:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  But this, the polarization, I think, is set by the fact that, sure, we can talk about toxic masculinity, we can talk about the male crisis, but why aren't we talking about the suicide rate? Well, because women's issues, we're, I think, in a good way, we're still thinking that we need to protect and provide for the women and the children in our society. We're holding that as in the highest regard, like those, they get the life rafts on the Titanic, when the Titanic goes down. So, you know, it's, it's complicated. And there's a lot of off limits terms, and I'm glad that they're coming up today, just organically, because those off limits terms, I think, are the potential bridges between the, where we sit now, where we look at men and we go, oh shit, they're a mess. There's a number of them are just like downright awful.

• 1:55:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  We'll go here and we go, man, they're really dissatisfied. The assumption is if a woman is dissatisfied or somehow not doing well, that a man failed. That's a presumption that a lot of people make. I don't make that presumption. And I can look back to the times in my youth where 90s narrative probably fed that a bit. But now I think we, we need to really like pull back the veil and go like, who are, like take a real hard look at ourselves and try and, you know, do this mesh that we're talking about.

• 1:56:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, the only way you get there is with data. So from 1945 to 2000, America registered a third of the world's economic growth, a third of its prosperity, with only 5% of the population. So we had 6X the growth of the rest of the world, right? And within that 6X, the majority of that prosperity was sequestered to the 1/3 of the population that were white, male, and heterosexual. It was just a lot harder to participate in that uplift if you weren't in that group. So, men of my generation, born with my sexual orientation, skin color, and gender, arguably had 15 to 18X the wins in their sales. The question is, should a young man now pay the price for my privilege? And I understand the gag reflex when I start talking or advocating for men, because they

• 1:57:11Speaker 00

  look at me and they said, "You had unfair advantage." 100% guilty as charged. But now, a young man, who is 4 times as likely to kill himself, 3 times as likely to be addicted, 12 times as likely to be incarcerated, and men of my generation aren't stepping up and providing the mentorship, or voting for the programs that might take a little bit of money away from my generation to support all young people and bring them up. And most of the programs and policies I advocate for would advocate for all young people. The average 7-year-old is 72% wealthier than the 7-year-old 40 years ago. The 25-year-old is 24% less wealthy. And then every day, it's speedballed with 110 notifications telling them that they're failing. And what do you know? They're the most obese, depressed, and anxious generation we've had in a long time.

• 1:57:56Speaker 00

  And there really isn't an honest conversation. And I've said this onstage, and it gets some pushback. I'll say, "I think women make better managers. I think that they're more emotionally in touch with other people, they have higher EQ. I think they'll probably make better doctors and lawyers. I think their attention to detail genetically, or anthropologically, whatever you want to call it, their bedside manner, and there's more women in both law school and medical school now, especially medical school." If I say that, women are better managers, will make better doctors, nodding, everyone, the women agree, and the guys will look around and go, "Nod." Right? If I say, "Men, on average, make better entrepreneurs," and that's not to say that women shouldn't be offered the same opportunities, and they haven't been, right?

• 1:58:39Speaker 00

  95% of the capital has been not only allocated to men, but the majority of it has been allocated by men who went to 1 or 2 schools, Harvard and Stanford. There's a "I don't feel safe around you."

• 1:58:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Who doesn't feel safe around you?

• 1:58:50Speaker 00

  It's fine to say women are make better X, Y, and Z. To say men are better at anything.

• 1:58:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, if you said it on X. I mean, let's be honest, if you said it on X, everyone would be like, cool. Males make better entrepreneurs. If you said it in a room, I mean, again, I don't want to make this political, but we can't, you know, we can't avoid this, you know, if you said it among a more right, center to right-leaning crowd, I think you'd probably get less pushback also from women.

• 1:59:17Speaker 00

  I think that's fair.

• 1:59:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm not saying it's who you're hanging out with, you know.

• 1:59:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's a fair point.

• 1:59:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  I barely hang out with anybody, so I've got a very small world, but.

• 1:59:24Speaker 00

  Well, but to your point, if you go to the Democratic National website, DNC.org, and they changed this, but I talked about this a lot on CNN, left-leaning website. They said, they have a page saying, "Who We Serve," and they outlined 16 special interest groups: veterans, the disabled, black Americans, Native Americans, seniors. And I added it up, and it was 74% of the population. And when you say you're advocating for 74% of the population, you're not advocating for 74%. You're discriminating against 26%. And basically, the only people they didn't mention were young men. So I understand the notion that men have had so much disproportionate advantage that there needs to be a catch-up period, but I would argue it's gone a little bit overboard.

• 2:00:09Speaker 00

  Our school system, K through 12, I would argue is biased against boys. A boy is twice as likely to be suspended on a behavior-adjusted basis as a girl. A black boy, five times, is likely. 70 to 80% of K through 12 teachers are women. Who do people naturally advocate for? The people to remind them of themselves at that age. Seven to 10 high school electorians are girls. It's now 60-40, female, male, in college. And so the bottom line is we leveled the playing field, and there's a little bit of bias, and women have totally blown by men. Fine, more power to them. But what do we do now that young men, just quite frankly, don't have obvious path to prosperity? And young people aren't as economically prosperous relative as they used to be.

• 2:00:49Speaker 00

  And young men are disproportionately evaluated in society, especially in the mating market, on their economic viability. And I get a ton of pushback saying, "No, I'm just looking for emotionally untouched male." I think that is such bullshit.

• 2:01:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  That is total bullshit.

• 2:01:02Speaker 00

  There's still economic hypergamy. Educational hypergamy has leveled out. There's a lot of people who, women who will marry a guy who didn't go to college. Educational hypergamy has vastly reduced. But in cities where women make as much as men, so there's an equality, if you find a couple, twice as many couples, the male earns more money than the woman. Economic hypergamy is still an absolutely full, full force. So if we don't figure out a way to level up all young people economically such that there's more pass for economic viability for young men, I think it's just going to tear at our society. We're going to have a lower birth rates, fewer people to support, the very expensive

• 2:01:43Speaker 00

  programs which make up 40% of our government spending now on people over the age of 65. And we're going to have real issues. And people say, "Well, that's repackage violence, that men are more violent." I'm like, "No, it's just the reality. If you look at every unstable violent society in history, it always has one thing at the core of it, and that is a group of young men with a lack of economic or romantic opportunities." I don't care if it's Weimar, Germany, or some of the most unstable places in the Middle East or Africa. When you have, the most dangerous person in the world is a young man who is lonely and broke, and we are producing way too many of them. And by the way, I don't think the remedy here is affirmative action for men. I just think that's too politicized. But we have to stop transferring wealth from people their age to people my age.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  Why the hell are we transferring every year $1.3 trillion from a generation that is the most anxious, depressed, and obese in American history to the wealthiest generation in the history of the planet called Social Security? That's a third rule in politics. I'm not suggesting anyone should die in poverty. Should you and I get Social Security?

• 2:02:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  No.

• 2:02:44Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:02:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't need it.

• 2:02:46Speaker 00

  I mean, probably a third, a third of seniors really don't need Social Security. But you get near that, you can't get elected, right? 40% of all government spending is going to people over the age of 65. It's going to be 50% within 10 years. We spend more money on ICE than we spend on children. I mean, it's just, there's my generation, I don't even think of us, I'm on the edge of Gen X baby boomer, the best way to describe my generation would be the vampire generation. We were never drafted into war, we never really had to serve, and what has my economic complexion been in America? I'm president prosperity, but the lowest taxes in modern history. So, a lot of these solutions, I just think are common sense. We need to do

• 2:03:29Speaker 00

  away social security tax, right? 6% up to 160,000, so a kid working for me making 150 or 160K, good living, they pay 9,000. I make a lot more than that, I pay 9,000 because it tops out at 160 grand. Why does that make any sense? Who, two biggest tax deductions, mortgage interest rate and capital gains. Who owns homes and stocks? People our age. Who rents and makes their money from current income? All the dudes in this office, the young kids, right? We are literally transferring trillions of dollars from young people to old people, and we wonder why young men feel anxious when they are disparate. 75% of women say economic viability is key to a mate, it's only 25% of men. Women still look at men as economic providers. And so you have this entire generation of young

• 2:04:13Speaker 00

  men who feel like they have no purpose, no onramps to the middle class, and are being evaluated on a set of criteria that get harder and harder for them each year, and then this like unbelievable set of expectations that they're taught they should have, because it seems like everyone else is making a million dollars selling ETH, or is in amazing shape, or has a ridiculously hot boyfriend or girlfriend, and has artist passes to Coachella. So, it'd be shocking if they weren't depressed and obese.

• 2:04:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow. The analogy that comes to mind is academic science. You know, there's, I used to joke, you know, the advantage of having a dad who was a scientist who was also a little bit irreverent, was that I grew up around an understanding of how academics works and Early on, I thought, as much as I love my colleagues, like, a lot of them need to retire. They just need to go.

• 2:05:08Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 2:05:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the reason they need to go is because they were having three, four, two to four NIH grants, like, million-dollar-a-year grants, and that itself isn't a problem, except that there was enough money for young investigators, and so fields die, and science dies. They don't retire. And so, it was very interesting, right before the Trump administration came in, I started logging into these NIH hearings, and I think our previous NIH director, and I will go on record in saying, and our current NIH director, Jay Bhattacharya, both very good directors in different ways, trying to do important, different things. And you'll notice the budget was not cut under Jay, and IDC, for the academics out there, was not cut, but an interesting problem was outed at the kind of end of Carolyn's role at NIH,

• 2:05:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  the former director. And it was the following. Someone said, "What is the deal? Why are people living longer, and young people are killing themselves? And we have all these mental health issues, mostly among men, but also among young women?" And she said, "It is true that we've been very successful in medicine at getting people 65 and older to live much, much longer, to treat late-stage diabetes, to treat cancer, to treat... We don't have cures for these things, but we've extended life for the older generation, and, to a large degree, the quality of life, especially if they're willing to get sunlight, exercise, probably not drink alcohol at that age, or drink a lot less, not smoke. People are living longer and longer and longer, and tons of research money is being poured into

• 2:06:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  this. There's this enormous gap where many of the problems that are most important to young people to thrive in every way, not just health, but mental health, et cetera, they're just not even being studied. So there's this top weighting of age and of seniority, clearly in what you're describing, but also in the science, and that we're funding, and that clearly, clearly harms young people, because no one's studying porn addiction in a serious way at scale. Nobody's studying social media addiction in a serious way at scale. I think what Jonathan's done is fantastic, and others are now getting involved in this. But, you know, it's a problem, if you look at the numbers, as serious as cancer for people who are, you know, in their 50s and older, and actually, cancer's and diabetes

• 2:07:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  and deaths of despair, as our previous, you know, Surgeon General pointed out.

• 2:07:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Are among the greatest killers of young people. So we've totally lost perspective in many ways. I don't know what to do about social security. That's your domain, not mine. But I vote very strongly for what they do in Japan. Force scientists to retire. I'm gonna earn some hate from my colleagues, but anyway. Force them to retire at 65. They still collect a salary and in many cases, a pension if they're state-funded schools. They still have healthcare. Their kids still probably went to college partially for free, the inside ball of these schools that you and I work at, right? This whole network.

• 2:07:59Speaker 00

  And they got in.

• 2:08:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they got in. And so let them retire. Let them keep their office. I do believe there's a lot of wisdom in the older generations, but I was quite happy to-

• 2:08:11Speaker 00

  There was your land acknowledgement. Let me go on some-

• 2:08:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I just want to say there were senior faculty members like Lubert Stryer, I'll just call these people out, who wrote the book Biochemistry. Anywhere they ever started. Lubert retired, closed his lab. He made a bunch of money at Affin Matrix, the gene ship company. And he used to come around to the lab and go, hey, what are you guys working on? He would talk to the students and give them amazing ideas. I think that generational wisdom passed down is great. Guess what he wasn't doing? Consuming grant dollars, consuming square footage on campus. He was shedding knowledge for free because the system is-

• 2:08:39Speaker 00

  He's a Yoda, but he's an outlier. So you work at Stanford, one of the finest faculties ever assembled. NYU has an outstanding, the business school, we have an outstanding faculty. I would argue one of the best in the world, not because it's our fault, but because every great faculty member loves the idea of coming and spending four, eight, 10 years in New York and living in Soho.

• 2:08:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's pretty good.

• 2:08:59Speaker 00

  That's our advantage. Hey, come here, we'll give you free housing. You and your wife, your kids are out of the house. Come teach accounting here. We get amazing faculty. A third should be up, put on a fucking ice floe. They get to a point where they darn adding as much value. They were the bomb on gap one accounting in 1988. They get tenure and they won't leave. And they leave feet first. And the result is young people who could bring a certain creativity, a new way of looking at things, there's no room for them to come up. And I want to go back to the notion of vampire generation. We talk about sunlight, being social, eating well, sleeping well, all the keys, right? I would argue the number one predictor of longevity is one thing, money. China's gone from an average life expectancy of forty seven to seventy seven in sixty years as their wealth has gone up.

• 2:09:43Speaker 00

  You're in the bottom decile, I believe, of income. You live twelve years less long than someone in the upper decile, right? It's about money. And all we have done is not only suck money from young to old, we have sucked life because we are so selfish and so unwilling to pay it forward. Old people elect even older people to vote themselves more money. And what they are doing, maybe unwittingly, but they are doing it, is they are robbing life and happiness from young people and transferring it to old people. There not only needs to be term limits. Washington DC, the people allocating capital has become a cross between the Golden Girls and the land of the walking dead. Enough already. We have totally robbed, not only money, we have robbed life and health from young people

• 2:10:28Speaker 00

  because money in our society is health.

• 2:10:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  How do we create financial incentives inside of uniqueness? I think that's what makes the United States great. Because I saw social media that way, but I will say that's because it worked out that way for me. I love learning, I love teaching. I flipped on a camera and I started the podcast with that guy sitting over there and it worked out great.

• 2:10:48Speaker 00

  The way I would describe the transition that's been bad for America is that, the way I would describe it is that back when I was growing up, America had a commitment to and even loved the unremarkable. I was remarkably unremarkable. And I'm not, that's not a humble brag. I got eleven hundred and thirty on the SAT, had a three point one GPA. We didn't have any money, but this is what I got. I got assisted lunch, right? And the great state of California used to send coupons to my house. They were the same colors the kids would buy in school so I wouldn't be embarrassed, right? I got Pell Grants. I got accepted to UCLA on appeal, seventy four percent admissions rate. I got, I was one of the twenty six percent that didn't get in.

• 2:11:29Speaker 00

  And I was installing, Shalvin came home really upset one day and said, is this my life? I was always told I was funny, I wanted to be a doctor. And my mom said, well, is there an appeal process? And I remember the day the admissions director called me and said, you're not qualified, but you're a son of California and we're going to give you a shot.

• 2:11:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  A son of California.

• 2:11:47Speaker 00

  Son of California. What a great statement. I get emotional just thinking about it. And then I got, as I said, I got into Berkeley. And this is a brag and a flex, but I'm gonna make it. I've given 20 million bucks back to the University of California in the last five years. Awesome. So it's worked out for all of us. America isn't about identifying a super class of rich kids and the freakishly remarkable. It's about betting on unremarkable kids. So this is what we need to do. We need, if you're a university and you have more than a billion dollar endowment and you're not growing your freshman class faster than population, you're a hedge fund with classes and you should lose your tax-free status. If 20% of your degrees aren't for non-traditional things such as nursing or specialty construction or vocational programming, you don't get access to tax-free money.

• 2:12:32Speaker 00

  In my opinion, mandatory national service. I think there's a ton of things we need to do. I think we should tax the shit out of private schools and reinvest that in public schools. We need to disassociate house property taxes from the quality of the schools. Think about the disadvantage. Kids, the average public school spends $15,000 a year on a kid. The kid, uh, schools in poor areas, $9,000. The average private school spends $72,000 a year per student. So if you're fortunate enough to go to a private school, like my kids, we're spending 850 grand on them, and some kids are spending 120 grand. And you want that kid to compete against another kid to get into an elite university? And we all tell ourselves this myth now, that oh, with AI, college doesn't matter. It's never been more important.

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  And if you had a drug that can make it twice as likely that you get married, half as likely that you kill yourself, three times as likely that you become a millionaire, 10 times as likely that you run for office, four times as likely that you become an officer in the military, three times less likely that you become obese, would you hoard that drug? And then when someone gets into the, the working environment or the, or the economy, would you create a tax policy that just transfers money from you to the wealthiest generation in the world? There's just so many basic common sense solution around higher ed and K through 12 that we come up with all these reasons. We use terms like network effects, or globalization, or tech, and it's nothing but thinly veiled bullshit to transfer more money.

• 2:13:59Speaker 00

  The bottom 99% in young people are just nutrition for older people. And it's just, to me, it's fairly obvious. They're just common sense solutions. And higher ed has become, unfortunately, emblematic of the rejection LVMH-ing of America, where you either, at the age of 18, have to be freakishly remarkable, or you're captain of your lacrosse team and building wells in Africa, then, fine, come in and we'll put you on a glide path to potentially being a billionaire president. But say you're unremarkable, sorry, you're shit out of luck. Maybe you can build a data center somewhere and maybe get into the middle class. And by the way, we don't even have an apprentice culture in this environment. So many parents feel so shamed when their kid doesn't get into

• 2:14:40Speaker 00

  elite university. 11% of LinkedIn profiles in Germany and the UK say apprentice. It's 3% here, because parents feel shamed if their kid doesn't get into an elite university. We need to dramatically expand vocational programming, freshman classes, and stop this insane transfer of wealth and health from young people to old people. And higher ed, unfortunately, our industry, is at the tip of the spear of fomenting this rejectionist bullshit culture, where we've identified we're the arbiters of success. You know who gets into Stanford and NYU? Two cohorts: the children of rich people, you're 77 times more likely to get into elite university if you're a top 1% household, or the freakishly remarkable. And here's the thing, I can prove to us all mathematically that 99% of our children

• 2:15:25Speaker 00

  are not in the top 1%. America loved the unremarkable when I was a kid. It's fallen out of love with the unremarkable. Is America about identifying a superclass to become billionaires? Or is it about planting as many seeds as possible? Because no one can be the arbiter of greatness at 18. No one was going to see me at 18 and go, someday you might have an impact and you'll be wealthy. No one would have known that. And we've decided, no. We're about the children of rich people, and we're about the freakishly remarkable. And everybody else, in my opinion, hopefully, hopefully gets to the middle class. But if you don't, there's big tech waiting there to addict you, there's a tax policy that might impoverish you. I think that young people, people say about young people, they're

• 2:16:06Speaker 00

  entitled. I think they're entitled to be enraged. I can't imagine the rage they must feel right now. They look up, they look sideways, and they see all this prosperity. And they look at my generation and see the benefits we've accrued, and we want to spend $2 trillion a year on their credit card? We spend $7 trillion a year. We take in five trillion and that two trillion is all going, that incremental two trillion is all going to seniors. I'm in the club doing rails of ketamine and champagne and the closest a young person gets is they get to throw their credit card in and I'll keep swiping it. I mean, it is literally morally corrupt what we are doing in terms of deficit spending and how we are prioritizing our budget. Our budget reflects our values and our values are all fucked up and have said, "Let's party",

• 2:16:51Speaker 00

  right? The baby boomers, "Let's party like there's no tomorrow" and the young people, "Well, they're gonna have to clean up the house and the garage is on fire and the dogs are gonna be pregnant, but that's their problem because I'll be dead by then." This generation, my generation, for some reason, does not feel the same obligation to pay it forward or back and create infrastructure and investments for young people. And it's, to me, it feels fairly obvious and the solutions are fairly common sense, but we'll have thoughtful conversations and social security will be a third rail and we'll have thoughtful reasons for why. When I sell my business, the first $10 million should be tax-free. The last business I sold, first $10 million bucks is tax-free? What the actual fuck? They say, "Well, Scott, entrepreneurs are more productive.

• 2:17:36Speaker 00

  We want to unleash our productivity, our most productive..." I have no idea what tax, but people don't start businesses because of tax policy. Did you know what the tax, did you know about 1202? If you sell this business, the first $10 million bucks is tax-free if it's a, I think it's a C corp. That's not why people start businesses. No. But every day, there are new tax policies that do one thing, transfer money from those dudes to us, more me than you, because you're 10 years younger than me. It needs to stop. There's basic tax policy, basic health and human services policy, right? Why on earth, you're a doctor, for God's sakes, we spend $13,000 per individual for more obesity, more anxiety, more depression than every other G6 nation? We should absolutely have nationalized, socialized healthcare.

• 2:18:18Speaker 00

  The bottom 99% again are just a fucking body bag and nutrition for the top 1%. Monetizing healthcare.

• 2:18:25Speaker 00

  I'll put that to you. I absolutely think we need single payer socialized medicine right now. I think it is indefensible to healthcare in this country. Forty percent, I apologize, I'm going off script here, forty percent of households, medical or dental debt. You don't have kids. Do you realize what kind of shame you would feel as a father if your sixteen year old girl gets a screaming toothache and you have to go into debt to get her a root canal? And that hangs over you for the next two or three years?

• 2:18:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I'm all for robbing it from social security because I like that idea. The moment you say, you know, nationalized healthcare, I think, oh, boy, here we go again. But I like the idea of robbing it from social security. I'm not talking about taking old people and turning them out to pasture and letting them wander the streets, you know, mumbling to themselves. I do think that taking care of the older generation is important, but I do think we are a very top-heavy culture. And maybe because I want to, I consider you Gen X as opposed to Boomer.

• 2:19:15Speaker 00

  I appreciate that.

• 2:19:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  I really do. And actually, it raised a question for me. Feel free to say pass, you don't want to answer. But earlier you said you're somewhat, I don't know, bashful, or you have this issue around your age. Like, my friend Kelly Starrett, who's a PhD in physiology, amazing trainer and stuff, he said, the best thing about turning fifty, when I was turning fifty, he's like, you're going to be among the best in shape for your debt, for your decade. And I think, I mean, look, you look great for a forty year old. Like, you're killing it, you know, you're fit, all this stuff. So, but I wonder, is this kind of shame around it because your peer group kind of sucks in the way that you're describing? Or is this actually about age? Because to me, one of the most, one of the best things is to feel like your friends,

• 2:19:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  your people, the people you associate with are awesome. And your generation, I loved, I think Gen X is an incredible generation. As this conversation continues, I'm thinking more and more about the responsibility and both the failures and the opportunities to remedy things for the next generation. That's how we started this conversation. So, two questions there. First of all, is that what that's about? Like, your peers kind of suck and you don't want to be a part of it? Because I consider you Gen X. And I'm not just trying to, what do the kids say, glaze you here? You're winning on every dimension. And you got two health, what sounds like healthy, productive boys. Like, you got it all, man. Like,

• 2:20:32Speaker 00

  I think a lot of it comes down to very just base things, and that is a fear of death. I mean, I'm not, I'm afraid of getting old and being unhealthy. I don't mind the death part. Also, just a fear of just wanting to feel young and vigorous and masculine and feel like that's slipping away from me. Biology's undefeated. So I think I'm a little bit youth obsessed and a little bit ageist. So I think I have just a fear of aging. But just, just the call out about paying it forward and the call out to your, to your, I know a lot of young men and a lot of successful men listen to this podcast. I think my generation on a lot of levels, we're talking about tax policy, but men aren't stepping up with

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  respect to young men. If you look at the single point of failure, if you were to reverse engineer, when a boy comes off the tracks, it's when he loses a male role model through either death, divorce, or abandonment. When a boy loses a male role model, and 90% of the time, a single parent hold is headed by a woman, as mine was, at that moment, he becomes more likely to be incarcerated than graduate from college. And men aren't stepping up. There are three times as many women applying to be big sisters in New York as there are men applying to be big brothers. And some of it is a taboo, that men are concerned or self-conscious about expressing an interest to get involved in a boy's life because of sexual abuse from the Catholic Church, and Michael Jackson, and the rest. But there

• 2:21:59Speaker 00

  are a ton of men out there in their 30s, I think you have a bunch of them working with you, that may or may not have kids of their own. You don't have to be C.O. Goldman Sachs, you don't have to have a degree in adolescent psychiatry. You just have to be a good man trying to live a virtuous life. And as someone who mentors young men, I can tell you it is so easy to add value. Just showing an interest, answering basic questions. This is a question I literally got, now, six weeks ago, from a young man I'm mentoring. "I'm on this new diet. I'm just drinking pineapple juice and creatine." Okay. I don't have a medical degree and I can tell you that's wrong. Another question I got eight weeks ago. I saw this amazing thing, I'm moving to Alaska, Scott. What are you moving to?

• 2:22:44Speaker 00

  I saw this amazing thing on National Geographic. I've decided I want to move to Alaska. You have a good job and your mom is sick, right? Yeah. Why are you moving to Alaska? You're going to quit your job and move to? If you just ask basic questions, you add value to these young men's lives. Just real basic stuff. Oh, I'm feeling depressed. Did you get outside? Are you working out? There needs to be a societal zeitgeist that a moment a young man doesn't have men in his life, that the tribe moves in and injects young men into their life. And I would, the call out to men is, you know, there's this, there's this great quote in one of the Paul Wester Anderson movies, Magnolia, where the guy says, I have love to give, I just don't know where to give it. I just don't know where to put it. It's such a wonderful statement. I think there's so many men out there that have real,

• 2:23:30Speaker 00

  like, I think some of the most rewarding types of love is to give fraternal and paternal love. My purpose, my thing in life is to try and prepare my men for others. Prepare my boys for others. That's my job. It gives me purpose. I think there's so many men out there that could offer so much fraternal and paternal love to a young man or a boy, and they don't do it. Either because they're too lazy or they're not stepping up, or they're worried that people will suspect them of something. And there's so much need, and this is what you do. You find a single mother in your workplace and say, going to a game, does your son want to join me or join me and my boys? Does your son want to hang out? Washing your car? Going to a game? Whatever it is.

• 2:24:11Speaker 00

  That is the, in my opinion, that is the easiest solve that doesn't involve the government right now. But the bottom line is, men of our age aren't stepping up. And I couch it in masculinity. You take care of yourself. That's the first circle. You affix your own oxygen mask. You can't take care of other people unless you're economically and emotionally somewhat viable. You take care of your family, take your extended family, take care of your community. But the ultimate expression of masculinity is to get involved in the life of a child that isn't yours. And not enough men are doing it. Even really successful men. They're not stepping up. They're not helping young men. And the easiest thing to do, the most, and it's so rewarding. I can't tell you, it makes me feel, and I don't do enough of it, but I do mentor young men.

• 2:24:54Speaker 00

  It's just so easy to add value. They make such stupid fucking decisions. My job with my sons is to be their prefrontal cortex. No, you have to wear shoes to school. I, I, I know this is right. Wear shoes to school. So anyways, the call out, if we want better men, we have to be better men. I don't think you can really hit the pinnacle of what it means to be successful in masculinity, unless you're involved in the life of a child that isn't yours. We have the most single parent homes of any nation in the world. We used to be number two to Sweden. We passed them two years ago. But that's what I would call, I constantly talk about government fixes because I'm a lefty. They're, the easiest societal fix is quite frankly, is just male mentorship.

• 2:25:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yes, yes, and yes. Totally agree. I, I was very proactive in going out and seeking them. One feature of that, that I just wonder if we can kind of superimpose a, or, you know, or superimpose some solutions on top of, would be a better way to put it, is, for instance, the, I had no interest in playing football, but kept getting hurt skateboarding. So I learned how to weight lift and make my body stronger from the football coach, who was this amazing guy who wrote the original script for Mr. Mom that, that, he wrote a play, Wait Till Your Mother Gets Home, that became Mr. Mom. He was like, the guy's wife.

• 2:26:07Speaker 00

  Michael Keaton, Terigard.

• 2:26:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's right. But, so people say, he didn't write that, but this guy Bob Peters was like a physical specimen. And he also played the piano and he raised these kids and his wife dared him. She said, in the set, early seventies, she said, you couldn't do what I do. And so that was how the whole thing came to, he realized, you're right, it's really, really tough. So I went to him for, for working out advice, but not for other sources of advice. I went to different men for different sources of mentorship. It'll become clear what I'm saying here in a moment. My academic advisor, my PhD advisor was an incredible woman. So I was mentored by women too, but that's characteristic of.

• 2:26:44Speaker 00

  Was your father very involved in your life?

• 2:26:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  He, he was. I mean, we had, my parents split up at a, at a, you know, at, in adolescence. And so we had our, you know, our challenges over the years, over time. You know, my dad, being a scientist, first generation immigrant.

• 2:26:58Speaker 00

  How old were you when your parents split up?

• 2:26:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  14.

• 2:27:00Speaker 00

  And did other men kind of move in or was your father still very involved?

• 2:27:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  I sought out other mentors at that point. I resented science. I resented what he was a part of. We eventually made amends. He's actually been a guest on the podcast. He's a, he's a physicist, really helped me understand his trajectory and. You know, and we've worked out our stuff, but at that time it was, you know, it was skateboarding, it was lifting weights, it was, I want to become a firefighter, actually took fire science courses and did that. And then eventually tripped and fell into science and mentored, mentee'd myself to a wonderful professor at Santa Barbara, and then the story unfolds.

• 2:27:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you're gonna gag on this, but you're exceptional. Most 14-year-olds aren't exceptional and go out and find mentors. Mentors have to find them, because they don't even know, most 14-year-olds don't even know they need mentors, they don't even know the concept. And my mom was smart enough to get men involved in my life really quickly, and it was, it was everything for me. Everything. I got a, my mom's boyfriend gave me 200 bucks and said, I started asking about stocks, and he said, if you haven't spent this or bought stocks by the time I'm here next weekend, I'm taking it back. So I went to Westwood and Wilshire Boulevard and walked into Dean Witter, and this guy with a big juke fro came walking outside Saro and said, hi, I'm Sy Saro. And every day, I would call, I didn't

• 2:28:18Speaker 00

  have a lot of friends at 13, him from the Emerson Junior High payphone, 20 cents, and he'd give me a lessons on the market. I bought 12 shares of Columbia Pictures and be like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind is a hit, that's why the stock is up. Casey's Shadow is a bomb. When there's more buyers for the stock and fewer sellers, the stock goes up. And he taught me about markets. I've been investing in stocks since I was 13. I've made a lot of money selling my companies. I've made a shit ton of money investing in stocks. And just this guy, and by the way, he came to one of my live podcasts about two years ago, he's now 82, just this guy's interest in me, like, just meant the world. And also, and this is a weird story, but he recently just passed away. You know how in media, there's that second family people talk about? The dude who has a family and

• 2:29:02Speaker 00

  you find out he has a second family? My mom and I were the second family. My mom's boyfriend and my kind of male role model had a family.

• 2:29:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Unbeknownst to her.

• 2:29:12Speaker 00

  No, unbeknownst to her. But we didn't have any money, and I'm not going to judge my mom, but. And I'm not going to judge him. And he was actually a really good man to me. He was really a good mentor, but he was only around every other weekend. But I had some great, my athletic coaches took a really nice, active role in my life. And when I think about what it would have been like, because the reality is, you have this healthy instinct as a boy to start rejecting your parents at a certain age. And not only that, I see it with my boys, their mom's voice literally becomes white noise to them. They like, stop hearing it. And they, they take her seriously, or literally, but not seriously. And, and, but even, even just saying that boys needed men five years ago, this dialogue has come so far, was triggering

• 2:29:56Speaker 00

  to some people. What, women can't raise good men? No, my mom raised me, light of my life. But if I had not had a bunch of men who just naturally stepped in, there was a guy across the hall who noticed that it was just me and my mom, he would come over with his girlfriend to me, every other weekend, say, do you want to come horseback riding with us? Right? Because he knew I was being raised by my mom. It was a natural instinct for him to come over and take me out. And I worry that we've lost that, that we don't have enough male mentors.

• 2:30:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow. We're gonna have to do 10 podcasts. You know, I've got so many more questions, and I didn't get to a lot of things. Scott, I have to say, it's been amazing to get to just sit with you and, and learn from you. I'm delighted that we had this conversation.

• 2:30:37Speaker 00

  I appreciate that.

• 2:30:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  The fact that we had it, I don't know how polarized people, people view us as, but, but that alone was important to me. But I'm gonna think a lot about many of the things you've said. You've talked about having a code, this, you know, this notion of really being a provider and a protector, having, building a financial, you know, foundation for oneself, you know, putting service over attention to self, and, and just so many things of value. This is one that I know many people are gonna come back to over and over again. And I'm just grateful for you doing what you do. You defy all the stereotypes of the, of the groups that people assign you to, which isn't my favorite kind of people. So.

• 2:31:15Speaker 00

  Appreciate that.

• 2:31:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  And again, you're, you're killing it on the health front, whatever you're doing, man. It's probably your boys. They're probably like, this is what it's like to have vigor.

• 2:31:22Speaker 00

  Well, tonight, I'll go through everything where I do, and I want you to edit it. But just in the mutual fan club here, one of the things I don't like about podcasting is it's emblematic of American politics, and that is, the more outrageous you are, the more ratings you get. So the podcasting algorithms. Encourage people to say outrageous things. And sometimes they're not very informed. And I'm guilty of this sometimes. I've fallen to this Dunning Kruger where I think I know something about something because I know a decent amount about marketing or business. And I think in our leaders, we need to make intelligence and honesty and science cool again. And you're doing that. And I worry sometimes a lot of our most senior elected officials on the health side are not making intelligence or science cool again.

• 2:32:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  I have friends there and I'll just tell you like they're not biologists. They need to talk to the biologists.

• 2:32:10Speaker 00

  That's my point. You have real domain expertise. I think you are making science and intelligence cool again. And I think the nation is in desperate need of that. That certification, domain expertise, being measured about your comments, citing data, putting out disclosures, telling me, no, Scott, you don't understand DOPA. This is what actually is going on. I think that's important. And so I, I think you're a really positive influence for young people who are getting seduced by the algorithms. And there's gotta be people like you out there that young men aspire to be more like that say, no. Training, domain expertise, being measured and science matter. I like that. You're making that cool again.

• 2:32:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, thank you. Well, it's a labor of love and a bit of a compulsion. So I plan to continue, but I'm excited for whatever comes next. And especially in these very tense political years. You're a brave one.

• 2:32:55Speaker 00

  Go on.

• 2:32:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  You got balls and brains, man. That's, that's how I'll wrap this one. You got balls and brains. I've been thinking the whole time like, and you're willing to take risks and, and make mistakes. And clearly you're making more better decisions than less good ones on average compared to your peer group and then some. So come back again.

• 2:33:13Speaker 00

  Thanks again, Andrew.

• 2:33:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Scott Galloway. To find links to his new book and to find links to his various podcasts and other resources, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments.

• 2:33:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

• 2:34:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll

• 2:35:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Scott Galloway. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

• 2:35:51Speaker 02

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