Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

David Choe is a world-renowned artist, writer, podcaster and TV host. He tells how as a child, he was made to believe he was destined for greatness but also that he was a complete disgrace, leading him to channel his energy—including deep shame—into art that brought him global recognition. He shares about his addictions that put him on a decades-long cycle of extreme highs and lows and that forced him to eventually acknowledge and heal the childhood trauma he was battling inside. David shows up with raw, authentic presence to show us how we can transmute pain and shame into our best creative work and, more importantly, how complete vulnerability, especially about our hardest experiences, is the ultimate tool for forgiveness and self-acceptance. He also tells us the actual story about early Facebook, Pee-wee Herman and Santa Claus. Note: This conversation includes topics and language that may not be suitable for younger audiences. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Mateina: https://drinkmateina.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 David Choe 00:03:10 Drawing, Black & Colors, Death 00:12:54 Telepathy, South Bay 00:17:52 Sponsors: Eight Sleep & LMNT 00:20:40 Childhood, Podcasts, Mundane Moments & Artist Life 00:28:45 Mother, Beliefs, Religion, Artistic Ability, Childhood 00:33:27 Gambling, Transformation; Immigrant, Disgrace 00:40:10 Street Art, Graffiti, Creativity; Paintings, Payment; Sports 00:52:08 Sponsor: AG1 00:53:30 Santa, Belief; Journal, Vulnerability; Heart Break, Art 01:00:16 Facebook, Graffiti; Theft, Gambling 01:10:57 Adapting, Creativity 01:17:16 Album Cover, Art & Payment 01:23:40 Sponsor: Function 01:25:28 Immigrant & Belonging, Academics, Learning Art, Marvel Comics, Shame 01:35:11 Shame, Gambling Addiction, Stress 01:43:05 Sexual Abuse, Trauma, Shame, Addiction 01:51:52 Early Career, Pornography, Author 02:01:20 Graffiti, Disappointment, Rejection; Early Magazines 02:08:26 Sponsor: Mateina 02:09:27 Pornography, Co-Dependence; Movie Set 02:18:00 Pride & Family, Vice; Pokémon 02:26:44 Podcast, Workaholism, Shame, Reality; Anthony Bourdain, Channing Tatum 02:38:54 Writing, Career Success, Workaholism, Vice, News, Self-Sabotage, Heart Attack 02:52:21 Growth & Pain, Sizzler; David Arquette 02:58:40 Rehab, God, Purpose, Parents & Disappointment, The Choe Show, Pee-Wee Herman 03:05:53 Gratitude, Korean Immigrant, Self-Reflection, Brokenness 03:14:37 Emotion, Saying No, Suicide; Vacation & Workaholism, Art 03:25:23 Legacy; Vacation, Work; Authenticity 03:31:15 Surviving & Thriving, Suicide, Addiction, Play the Tape Out, Fun, Feeling Enough 03:44:43 Hope & Faith, Electronics, Santa Claus 03:51:23 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm a severe gambling addict. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. People, what are you running from, Dave? I was like, I'm running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I, I hate myself. So I'm just running. So as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just, just, just hopping on a train like, like literal running, like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second. Like, what are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm, you know, at a casino, I'm traveling, doing the news for Vice. I'm painting at this, like, I, I can't, I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself and I, I can't do that.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  I can't do that.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now.

• 0:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

• 1:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Cho. David Cho is an artist. He's a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster and television host. Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job and got rich. Now, that's a wild story, but David's whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome along the way is a million times wilder. As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness, but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace. Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability

• 1:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling and overcoming deep shame. Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted. David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way. So no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly, how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life. It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you. To be the best human being you can possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in science, an N of one, meaning there is no other like him.

• 2:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow. I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast. And frankly, it's impossible not to love him. This one is incredibly raw and honest. It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises. So buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with David Cho. David Cho, welcome.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me, man.

• 3:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Man, huge, longtime fan. Love your art. I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel. I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  What are you drawing?

• 3:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings. So I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong's been doing. Musician, lead singer.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Is it anatomically correct or is it like exaggerated or is it?

• 3:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is a really good question. So in essence, it's anatomically correct.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  But around the turn of the last century, two guys, Cahal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  For drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before. And they stripped away everything except.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  I'm gonna come paint with you. I'm gonna come paint with you.

• 4:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  I don't like what's happening in your painting studio.

• 4:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  I'm just from what you said so far, it's, it's not good.

• 4:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  But it's, it's good because you did that. And then now we have to, we have to strip that away. We have to get at the core of it because painting is. Wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me? Like, keep going.

• 4:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I, I love your YouTube channel. I watch it before I prepare podcasts and before I paint or draw. And I'm back to drawing a lot now and I live, I converted an art gallery into a living space and somehow I thought that that would make me more inspired. But it turns out it does.

• 4:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  A lot of things do, but I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail, otherwise people are overwhelmed.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  It's the best thing for, I think, everyone, but for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head. I always say the longest journey you'll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart. And to be an intellectual person, you just live a lot, a lot. You like, you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything. So, painting is not that, music is not that, creating is not that. It's just to get to this. And so for, but it sounds just in the little that you've explained that your painting is very methodical and which.

• 5:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Super meticulous. I want to include every cell type, yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  What's your threshold for positive affirmations? Can I go now, like you?

• 5:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I like to think I have a thick skin, but who knows?

• 5:36Speaker 00

  No, it's all, it's all love. Okay, um, for anyone who's watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam.

• 5:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Andrew.

• 5:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  All good.

• 5:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, all good, all good. You knew my last name, Ned.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  You know what? I was thinking about my friend Adam.

• 5:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  All good.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  That you know, that I used to skate with, I think. Adam Crone?

• 5:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, I was just thinking like.

• 5:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Upper Playground.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, Upper Playground.

• 6:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, he worked, he, his dad owns Crone Shoes.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  In Palo Alto.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  He wants, he wants to reconnect with you.

• 6:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Man, Adam Crone and I grew up together.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was just.

• 6:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out, we skateboarded, and then he started Upper Playground, The Walrus.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  That's, that's, that's it.

• 6:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  He's your homie?

• 6:15Speaker 00

  I used to work for, I did tons of graphics for Upper Playground, so.

• 6:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Does anyone call you Andy?

• 6:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Uh, my skateboard friends call me Andy. So, yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  But that's it, like, no one in the medical, like, science world?

• 6:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not anymore, no, not really.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  That would have like, you, you start your podcast and you do your, you're like, I'm Andrew Huberman. Like, I'm gonna be all over the place, because I'm nervous being here right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore, so, um, I'm, I'm gonna be all over the place if that, it's gonna be, it's gonna be sloppy.

• 6:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is your canvas, man, have fun.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Well, I'm just meeting you. I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  I hate the black. I hate it, like.

• 6:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  The studio?

• 6:57Speaker 00

  This, you with the black T-shirt, the black mugs, the black, like. I don't like it for you, you know, cuz I used to, I used to only wear black because I was like, ah, I'm a painter, I'm always dirty, I don't wanna like, you know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater and it's like, okay, that's, that's fine, but I just, um, colors are very important in not just painting, but like, the palette for your house, or, you know, like, um, most people talk about,

• 7:31Speaker 00

  in the modern age, modern man is, you know, and I, and I, I just make shit up, so you could correct, you're like the facts guy, but I, I feel like most people, human beings alive today are gonna die a, a very, it's mean to say boring, but just the same death, right? You'll most likely die la- laying down in a bed, or hospice, or, in a hospital bed, you know, it's just like, no one's dying, like, I know there's other countries where there's war and famine, but I'm saying, modern cities, you know, like, there's not like a hero's death, right? So it's just, it's all the same, and then you just, you know, the drive here in traffic, it's like, everyone either has a black car, or a white car, or a gray car, and then you get to their house, and their house is a beige, or a white, and you're just like,

• 8:14Speaker 00

  we only got one of these, you know, whatever your views on the afterlife are, but, this is it, this is it, like, this is it, and it's just like, people get mad of like, oh, I spilled paint on the floor, like, I gotta scratch, I'm like, paint everything, paint your fucking car, paint and make your, my, my kids drew my sweater, it's my favorite, you know, like,

• 8:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  I like that sweater.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Paint, you know, so I walk in here, and I go, fuck dude, like, and I'm projecting on you now, like, when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life, and I don't know where you're at, cuz I'm just meeting you, but, it's like, everything is black on black, like, black on the, black t-shirt, black mug, black, and it's like, White T-shirt. For my dream, my, my, selfishly, my dream is like this podcast would start. Instead of saying, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, like Stanford scientist that is just. Hi, I'm Andy. And then like you, can you Photoshop like a white T-shirt on? I'd wear a white T-shirt. I don't know. I don't like black. For me, I, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  I, I want to add as much color because I, I just, uh. Maybe that's the season I am in my life or the, the time I'm in, but.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I, I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life. And so I want to say to you.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  I'm meeting you for the first time. I've never seen you clean shaven. But I imagine, I mean, your beard and facial hair to me look very cute. You're very handsome. Your voice, when I hear your voice immediately is soothing. And I feel like this is a very kind person. Like I, once again, without having, like now I've met you for like five minutes. I'm like, oh, this guy's super awesome, but you know, like these kind of parasocial relationships where. I could go even, I don't know how hard you want to go today, but like it, it's like. I meet people all the time and then I meet them and it's like, I've already met you. Like we've already talked.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality and it's like. It's just everyone will meet. Everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen and everyone's going to meet who they need to meet. It's like all energy, right? You put this like, what? You know, I could sit there and go, why does Andrew Huberman want to meet me right now? And it's like, well, what am I putting out in the universe? And what is he putting out in the universe and art? Do the souls connect in that way, you know? So. I just want, I said if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how soothing and relaxing and like, there's something very, um, this is the invisible ingredient in like, everything in art is, did the person care, right?

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Like, I don't care how skilled and crafted, whatever, like, did the person care? And like, when you do stuff, in your voice, the tone, the frequency that's hitting my, my soul is like, oh, I don't know everything that guy's saying, he's using some big words, but I feel like he cares. And so I, I said if I ever meet you, and um, I, I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don't know your whole backstory, but I'm like,

• 11:32Speaker 00

  also I, I project a lot and I, I make a lot of assumptions, which I'm, that's a defect that I'm working on, but I just wanted to say like, even though you had a horrific, traumatic childhood, like, the fact that you're here, you're alive, and that you're doing all this good stuff, it like, it makes me emotional, cause I'm like, I, I don't even know you, and I appreciate what you're doing, and uh, you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right? So, um, I think that's it for now, but I just wanted to tell you all that, because I, I feel that way about you and I, I, you know, I like, I, I'm a big, sometimes you feel stuff and you're like,

• 12:18Speaker 00

  I'll text it to them, or, or maybe, you know, and I just go, no, if I feel that, I just wanna, especially if it's love and positivity. I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating, but it's because I like you. Like, I wouldn't, if I did, if I like, if I'm like, I don't give a shit about this guy and I don't want a relationship with, I would never say anything, but I'm like,

• 12:40Speaker 00

  This, I don't know what the science behind it, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right? It can't like just you wa- you were walking into a black hole right now, like, I don't know. Anyways, that's, that's what I wanted to say.

• 12:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man. Well, I'll take that in. Thank you. A lot there. Thank you.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Were you able to take it in?

• 13:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. I, it's interesting when you call me Andy, it's a, it's a different part of my persona, just because that names carry a lot.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for that. I'm gonna take that in and, um, you know, I, the, I got this little voice in my head that's saying, uh, I want to be very clear, you know, my, I had some rough, rough aspects of my childhood. I've made good amends with my parents, so we're good now. I say that to, uh, you know, uh, for all the, the reasons people can assume, but here's the thing. I knew somehow that we'd eventually cross paths. I just didn't know when. Uh, so you say the telepathy thing. For me, I was a postdoc at Stanford. That comes after PhD. You do like five years. It's kind of like a residency and, uh, and I'm from the South Bay. And I didn't want to go back to the South Bay because as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which normally are in cities like art, live music. It used to be like that. Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the, at the edge on California Avenue. There was a lot of interesting things about Palo Alto, but it became very, uh, right angles, uh, when the tech industry really exploded there. And in 2007, when I was a postdoc, was when you were muraling at Facebook. I learned that later.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  But that was a time when I was back there for my science career and I was pretty miserable. Being close to home again, honestly, I didn't want to ever go back there for a while. It was not healing. It was, uh, but when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like, oh, there was at least one other. Person here who was like in the in the kind of a spiritual emotional fight with what the South Bay is. And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian McKay from Meyer Threat. It turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 14:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  And he had skated some of the same ditches we had. And so there's a history of people being really frustrated with being there.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Really good Vietnamese food.

• 15:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  And is there really?

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, in Palo Alto or the South Bay?

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah, Castro Street, Mountain View. Yeah. And it's changed a lot, but. Uh, take me back to 2007. I don't know how you feel about historical stuff.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Okay, so we're definitely, I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that, but because. My, I'm older, I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried. I'm gonna, I'll just say right now, I'm gonna get a lot of dates wrong. Like, I'm not like, you know, things, people are like, that's, you know, like.

• 15:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay called the neck of University Avenue, right before it goes under. The train tracks. As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks, Caltrain, it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to Stanford. And so those offices now are Palantir.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which catches a lot of heat for other reasons. But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us. There was a curb cut right there and there was a boardslide thing. And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices. And years later, I heard. David Cho was merely at Facebook. So how did that come to be?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna be, uh, like, very sloppy, like I said, and it's maybe some of the stuff, because sometimes. Um, it's the way I treat talking and journalism and podcasts is like. It's like a story in my own head. Someone else is like, just shut the fuck up and answer the question, right? But like, for me, when I paint, I don't sketch, I go straight to a finish and I. So sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you because you asked me a question that's very direct, but I. The way it went into my head was very abstract because I'm, so, um, if you let me. Do a little paint mixing, I'll, I hope I'll answer your question, but do you, um? Do you know Peewee, Peewee, like I'm learning it today. Do you know, uh, Peewee's Playhouse?

• 16:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  I knew, oh yeah, I mean, yeah. I met him actually.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Paul Rubens?

• 16:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, at a, at a photo show of Mike Muller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Muller's sharks and animals.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 17:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  And Peewee Herman, in his thing, in his suit, the whole thing, walked up, Laird Hamilton was there.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 17:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  And he walks up to Laird Hamilton, there are a bunch of people around, everyone's trying to get to Laird, try to Laird, Laird's like a, this was 2017. And, uh, in West Hollywood. And Peewee Herman walks up and he goes, "I have to meet you." And Laird's like, and the best thing is Laird just goes, "Oh, hello, what's your name?" Like typical Laird, like Laird's a real gentleman, always, you know? And, uh.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  He didn't know who Peewee Herman was?

• 17:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  I couldn't tell if you knew or not. And he's like, "I wanted to meet you," this kind of thing. And, uh, and I was like, "No way." And he had the whole thing, like the shiny lips and the thing, and I was like, "That's Peewee Herman."

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Oh, that's amazing. I love that. Alright, well, I mean, I'm definitely gonna have to tell you my Peewee Herman story at some point.

• 17:52Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 18:38Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 19:23Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 20:07Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 20:40Speaker 00

  For me, art as a kid growing up, like the trifecta, my holy trinity of children's education, art, entertainment, is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then of course Pee-wee Herman. I mean, Pee-wee Herman had... Lawrence Fishburne, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like Danny Elfman. Like, he just, he was like the ringleader of all this creativity. And he had like, meka leka hi, meka heini ho. And do you remember the, do you remember the secret word? The secret word was like, if anyone our age that's watching people's playoffs, it was like, today's secret word is, I don't know. What's our secret word today, Rob?

• 21:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Microphone.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Microphone. And if, if someone says microphone, scream real loud. So can we do that today? Sure. All right. I'm counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  And you don't take a pee until we take a pee. You've got an agreement on that? Okay. All right.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  I hated the South Bay. I hate, I hate, like, I just.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  I'm, um, I have all the typical artist traits. I'm clinically depressed. I'm bipolar. I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism. Like, I don't have, thank God, I don't have any of the chemical addictions because I'm allergic to everything. But, um, severe OCD, severe antisocial traits.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  You know, I, I just, highly sensitive, you know? So I, I just, coming here today, like, you asked me and I kept texting, like, I don't know, we did this like dance for a few months and I, uh, if I'm just being honest with you, like,

• 22:39Speaker 00

  I, I don't, I don't know how to not be me, you know? And sometimes like, I put a mask on and I, I, I'm like, I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today, but I, you know, I didn't even meet you yet. And so.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like,

• 23:00Speaker 00

  I don't know, I just feel comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast. But anytime anyone else asks me, it's such a, I know who I am. And sometimes I don't, and sometimes I figure that out. And it's, sometimes you meet people on the street, at pavilions or at the supermarket, and they're like, I, and it's like this parasocial thing where it's like, I know you, I relate to you, I, and there's something about that where, you know, the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything. And my parents aren't gonna listen to this. My brothers don't listen to, like, so in a weird way, like, you're gonna know more about me today than my own family.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  So the parasocial thing is even, it's real, right? Like placebo effect is real, like all these things. So I, you know, I got here early. I went for a walk down the, to those, that street. And then it's like just this beautiful view of the ocean. And I, it happens every time. It's like, it, it, I know what it makes me sound like. It's like, oh, this guy's like very unstable and unhinged. And I'm, I'd be the first to admit it's like, I cry all the time now. I don't know what it, it was just like, maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here, just knowing that I haven't talked in a long time. And there's no upside for me. And I told you that, I was like, I go on these podcasts and I think,

• 24:30Speaker 00

  Howard Stern, like 15, 20 years ago, and Joe Rogan, the multiple, multiple times I've been on his show, I think are the only two pot, radio shows, podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing. Everyone else, every time you've ever heard me on any other podcast, it's either severely edited or they cut out huge chunks of it, or they didn't even air it at all. So I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so there's something that- Went, you know, in the narcissistic traits where I'm like, I'm the fucking greatest artist in the world to like, oh my god, I'm a piece of shit. Like it just, you know, it's just like this thing and before, when I was younger, it was like, everyone has to see everything.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Everyone has like, I think I'm so important that everyone has to see everything that I create. Painting, podcast, book, like whatever it is. And then it went, like, my problem with my shit is it's all or nothing, so it's hard for me to find the middle. And so, at this point now, I'm like forty-nine, I live a very quiet dad life, you know, I'm a family guy. And there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I've never put out. There's books I've written, there's TV shows, movies that I've made that it's just, I don't.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Before the ego and the narcissism, like, you need to put this out because you're important and everyone needs to see how important you are. And now, the flip side to that, and maybe, maybe it's not healthy either, is like, I know who I am, I'm comfortable with myself and I don't, I don't need. You know, I'm artificially blocked from everything, like I, I don't have my own password to my social media, I don't. I have blocks on my phone, so I can't access the internet, so it's like, I do put all these things in the place to like, protect myself because I'm a sensitive person. So, um, you know, as an artist, there's certain isms and, and stories, it's like, oh, starving artist, you're not gonna make any money, like.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  Struggling artist, there's these stories that people say and then you buy into them.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  But I had, um, I had a few teachers along the way that, um, influenced me that like, you know, there's like, just certain moments happen in your life that live in your, your head rent free and, uh. I have a lot of those and so one of the stories is, you know, I'm forty nine. It's like you have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere. What the fuck am I doing in the four oh eight? Like this is, what am I doing in Cooper teen? Like, like in my head, the story is written that you're a fucking, you know, and I hadn't done shit, right? But in my head, I'm like, you're a greatest artist ever in Gilroy. You know, like, what, you know what I mean?

• 27:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sorry, no disrespect to Gilroy.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Garlic capital, garlic fest, garlic ice cream, you know? So there's a story in my head that is like, I gotta get to New York City, right? Like, I gotta like, I couldn't, I couldn't get any like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and raised in LA and I just, I couldn't, you know? And, um, and so I, I, and now I look back, if I do a inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life. It's always found in the mundane. It's always found in cold temperatures. It's always found when there's no wifi. It's always found, found in a suburb of, it's, it's like this story like, I'm gonna get to fucking New York

• 28:15Speaker 00

  and I'm gonna be part of this move. It's never that, like, it's nice to romanticize that, but it's these moments of brilliance. Like someone, whoever's listening right now, they're like, I got this. And then I'm, there's like a, and then I'm gonna get to this and then I'm gonna meet this person and I'm gonna do. And it's like, bro, I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years. I met this wonderful lady. She was my girlfriend for seven years, but like at that prime, I was twenty three and I was like.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  And, um,

• 28:45Speaker 00

  for me, the stakes are so high because I, so one of the teachers was my mother, right? My mother is hardcore born again Christian.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  So, science does not enter the picture, right? It's like blinders on and through her I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ, that's it. There's no, there's no... So, wait, you're telling me there was an actual arc with two animals? And all the two animals didn't kill the other? And like, you know, and there was Adam and there was a snake that talked? It's like, yeah, like no hesitation. So she gave me that gift of like, like, hey, science, like, facts? No, blind, like, just, holy shit. Like, there's nothing could fault her. And you're like, you're fucking stupid. You're ignorant, like, and she's, but she's not. She's a bright woman. And now I look back and, like, I just met you. You're a brilliant guy.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  And I, I sit here and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet. You know, some of the smartest people on the planet. And they're all dumb. They're all like idiots. You're like, wait, you're a genius. You have photographic memory. You created this company, duh, duh, duh. And you made some of the dumbest decisions I've ever s... You know, it's like, it's like, yeah, you're really good at this, but you don't know relationships? Or you don't know? So, so my mom taught me through just not anything, but just watching her of just this absolute belief. And, and one of her beliefs was, you're my son. You know, this is some Jesus shit, like me, who is like, how I explain this? This fucking neurotic mess, like, growing up in unstable family and all that.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Got fucking molested, every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like, just chaotic. Cause they were working and then I was just like, left out in the wild, abandoned, spiritual abuse, all this shit. And she's just like, in the same way, she believed in God and Jesus. She's like, you're the one. You're the greatest artist and I'm like five years old. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? She's like, no one's better than you. No one's better than you. You're the best, you're gonna be the great, you know. Your name's David, like a lot of Koreans named after Bible. She's like, I named you after King David. You're gonna be a king. And I go, but now in hindsight, I'm like, and yes, King David beat Goliath,

• 31:05Speaker 00

  but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and like failed a lot, you know? She didn't tell me all that shit, you know? Um, so she's, she's raising me, she's brainwashing me. It's like, you're the best, you're the greatest. And then you, you know, I've met other artists where it's like everyone has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, you're nothing, you're a piece of shit. You're the worst, you know? Who the fuck do you think you are? I had the opposite. I had a mom just, it didn't matter. It didn't matter like, but mom, look at how horrible, it's like, you're the greatest. And so it's like, at some point, I, I hate myself. I have like a solo, such a low self opinion of myself.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm just down on myself, just this kid, just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me and. Um, and I. And I'm like, of course she says that, she's my mom, you know? Like, but she just brainwashed me into believing that I'm the best. And I would, as a, as a trickster and a shapeshifter. I would, you know, what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words. That's why they're such brilliant artists and that's why they can make great music and all this because they can't. I can't, you know, like, I'm gonna probably talk to you for you, for you hours today and I'm gonna leave you feeling misunderstood.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  I'm gonna be like, fuck, did I, because I'm not, in the same way I can like, translate what I feel in a painting. It's very like, it's like when people describe like ayahuasca or something. They're like, try to describe and they're like, the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you just went through. So that's kind of the, why, why I get really self judgmental. But I'm like, this woman. And you know, my dad, he loves me, but he's like, he's all right. He's okay, you know? And I'd watch my mom, who was just like a brutal businesswoman, you know? And um, she would transform. You know, we, we, we, you know, I, I spent most of my life either poor or middle class, you know, like,

• 33:08Speaker 00

  being wealthy came later, but so, you know, we were on welfare a lot. Businesses burned down in L A riots, like, I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know? But then they would do good and they had the gambler's mentality, which a lot of Asians do, and I, I have that too. Which is? Just, I don't know if this is true, but I heard that uh, Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women. Like, most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do. So my mom would gamble like flipping houses or like, not in a casino, but like just huge, like, huge swings, which you're like,

• 33:51Speaker 00

  I, I grew up with a fearless woman, you know? But so, we wouldn't have stuff, but then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on like fake jewelries, cubic zirconium, because she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money. And just, just insane lying and, but hardcore Christian. So like the hypocrisy there, like I'm definitely, I'm trying to work on my own, breaking out, so it's like, I'm gonna be hypocritical in this interview and at the end, hopefully I'll be able to correct any exaggerations that were lies. But that's a new tool that I have. I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know? I lie to tell the truth, you know, all those things. Um, so I'd watch my mom transform from like a poor woman.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  The mentality was, she's like, my, I'm, my son is the greatest artist in the world and like, I'm, you know, I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback with the broken window, you know, but I, when I go into this meeting right now, you're not gonna see that. So she transformed herself into this rich, powerful woman and just like, get, like, I'm, I'm just sitting there, a kid in the corner, watching this woman get what she wants. I'm like, holy fuck. What the fuck was that performance? And then just coming out and I'm like, but mom, that's not like those things you said, that wasn't real, that's not true. And she's like, yeah, they don't need to know that. And I'm like, but we just went to church and we learned the ten commandments and you're not supposed to lie. And it's like, all this like confusion.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  And then I meet Sean Parker, who, you know, just the sweetest kid, you know, just,

• 35:29Speaker 00

  he started emailing me right when he started Napster. He goes, I wish, I have all the emails. I keep, I keep certain emails and voice messages and I just, I just, that's my own nostalgia, but like I have a, I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, "Thank you for getting me into watercolors." And I was like, dude, my fucking hero, like, yes, like, it's such a good feeling. Um, I have a voice message from Pee Wee Herman, which I'll share later. And all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just because it was, he's such an interesting, like, wonderful, I know, like, the image of him, but like, I, I,

• 36:11Speaker 00

  we don't talk like as, like we used to, but I still consider him a friend and I'm over, forever grateful to him, but. So, he, I met him at a time when, like,

• 36:25Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't even know how to, this, I mean, like,

• 36:29Speaker 00

  just complete disgrace and shame to my family. You know, it's like the immigrant story. Talk to any immigrant, why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country? Because it was shitty there, that's it. You're not born in a country and you're like, dude, let's leave, right? The only reason why anyone's here is because it was shitty where you were at, right? So then they all, it doesn't matter if you're Asian or Mexican, whatever, you came here for a better life. And what does that mean? Work your ass off. So we're, we're in a nation of workaholics, right? This is an entire country of workaholics. So my parents, you know, I didn't go through it, but they're like,

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Japanese tanks rolled down the street and, you know, they have the typical like fucking war, famine, all that stuff, so, they get over here. And like, born and raised in Los Angeles, you know? It's like, don't know who I am, don't know where I belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over, and just.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  I didn't even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself. Like, I couldn't live in my, like, it felt like I was burning inside my own body. And so, um, even made fun of like, like, I listened to, we, we have the same taste in music. I listened to Minutemen, Minor Threat, you know, I'm blasting, uh, Downset, Inside Out, Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozer. I used to put on Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers, punch myself, it's like, just, like, I'm in my room, a teenager, just punching myself as hard as I can, just to like, go into like a Berserker rage. Um, and I, and I just, back then, like, I found pornography and it was just so soothing,

• 38:15Speaker 00

  like, it was like, getting high, like, I would just masturbate, like, over and over again. So, I'm, I'm like masturb, but I would do like weird self-harm, I guess the kids call it edging, but I could, I'd masturbate, but then not come, and then beat myself up, and I'm going through puberty, and I would go out and I'd shoplift, uh, spray cans, like, just at, you know, hardware stores, and I'm listening to, uh, you know, I would get like a Faith No More, like, in Living Colors, just like so, some song, and I would just like, and OCD would just repeat, like, some lyric in it, "I am a patient boy," and I would just like, go into like a trance, and I would just go out and I would just fucking

• 38:57Speaker 00

  spray paint, and I'm living at home, so I'm not hiding this shit, I come home, my hands covered in black paint. This, this is what we fucking came to this country for? This is what, why we, we fucking left another country so you could come here and not be an artist, but do, like, you're a disgrace, you're a disgrace to our race, you're, you know, and my dad would just like fucking throw me against the wall, and I'm like, I don't care dude. I don't care what you're like. Do you understand like I wasn't like actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't like. Do you understand that everything you care about? I don't care. You get that?

• 39:38Speaker 00

  And like, you know, you start the show and I, I was laughing because it's like, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, Huberman, scientist, Stanford, this and I'm like. I don't care. Like I, I like, I like Andy. Like I like that, you know? And then I was like, you know what? This is like a stolen valor. Um. Sean Parker's starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, you know, I'm there at the beginning and uh. So he brings me in and at the time when I first, this is years, the emails back and forth. He's like, I need, because. The energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just, I don't give a fuck.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  I don't care what you care about. Like, I don't like, it's just complete. I don't care if I go to jail. I don't like, I'm just painting on everything. And it's like graffiti? Graffiti is vandal, it's not an art, it's not graffiti artist or street art. It's fucking vandalism. It's a crime. And people are telling me, anyone out there doing street art, like there's so many rules. There's so many, like, what did you write? Did you used to tag it or anything?

• 40:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, but I had a good friend from.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  If you skated, you definitely had like a.

• 40:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  There were some kids in our crew that.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Cubes? What did you tag? Come on?

• 40:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, because I had friends who were like graffers and they were, they like boxed us out, you know, the under shadows kids.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  You never did graffiti?

• 41:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, but we can talk about this later. I want to hear, I want to hear from you now, but later we should talk about orphan and the under shadows crew, which is a, which is a kind of a. Thing in the Bay area.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I heard of him.

• 41:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, he was a good friend of mine, but anyway, I didn't graffiti.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'm.

• 41:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I grew, I drew on my grip tape.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Alright, that's, that's good.

• 41:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  But no, I wasn't a tagger, wasn't graffiti guy.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'm out doing like that and you know, like.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  You know, we can have like a conversation about creativity and this and that and it's like I can't. It's it's very hard to talk about. It's because it's like. Can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint them on a Lisa? Yeah, I know how to do all that. I know how to like. I went to school like I taught myself. I watched videos like you could teach yourself how to paint. Something to make it look like something. That's a teachable skill, but creativity. Where does that come from? Are you just born with it? Is it from deprivation? It's like it's like a. You know, I could I can only share what my path my my path is and it's like.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  The embarrassment like. You're Asian. You need to get a 4.0. You need to get into UCLA. You need to be a doctor or lawyer. And it's like me, my I'm the middle child, me and my two brothers, like long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk. Why are you doing that white shit? You know, like, and then he's got Asian kids that are into. You know, like, there was no identity, right? And then. It's just like lost, just like what the fuck is, you know, like, we don't belong anywhere, just like the. Asian depictions. Uh, in media is like long duck dong Asians have small dicks. They can't drive. They're good at math. It's just nothing's good, right? And I'm like, I. You know, I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world and I and I remember.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Um, Sean just was attracted to like whatever whatever little art I'd start getting. Some. Noticed in juxtaposed and I was starting to do graffiti everywhere and. And uh, he's like, I want that. Whatever that is, I want that. Like, I want to be part of that. And I said. And I I forgot what my painting it was. It was like right when I couldn't sell a painting and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand and he's like. And he was a teenager still and he goes, my. My, I I want your art, but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a. Is a lawsuit, you know, I mean, whatever he it ended up the way it ended up, but.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  I remember he goes, I'm getting he showed me a screenshot or whatever. He's like, I'm being sued for one trillion dollars right now, so I can't really afford your art, but like. I'm gonna get it, you know, so we we started this relationship and he would send me these. Crazy like abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint and then.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  And then uh he started another company called Plaxo and he's like uh no and then finally you're catching me in the South Bay, you know, I I met this girl, we fell in love and I moved to San Jose just the most culturally dead place and everyone's like rollerblading, working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or you know, some some tech startup and they're like, we're cool because we have a trampoline and a you know, we have a like a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want and we have bunk beds so we and like that's also you could just keep working, you know? And so I meet Sean and he's like, dude, we're starting this company called Facebook and

• 44:40Speaker 00

  like, we finally have some money and like, dude, this is and he's like, where are you at? And he didn't know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up a undercover security guard. I was twenty seven when I got and I owed everyone money. I owed my girlfriend money I owed and so I needed money bad and um I was in like a lot of trouble. I like was, I didn't know how how I was gonna pay everyone back because it's really hard to sell a painting, you know? But my paintings did sell once in a while and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then uh all the art that I did in jail, um I used to work for Vice Magazine. I say work because but I never got paid, but you know, I I They didn't pay you?

• 45:24Speaker 00

  No, I I I think people, if anyone's listening, is a little side tangent is um and it's gonna definitely sound like OCD, like I'm keeping a list and maybe I am because I don't think about it, but I I was sitting the other day and I go

• 45:43Speaker 00

  they all owe me money, everyone I've ever worked for. Like every like people like I gotta get paid, like someone develops a skill, like I'm good at songwriting or or this or that and and then they go, well, I gotta like the young people's men like, well, that's my craft. I gotta get paid. I go, I never got paid. I worked for Nike, Levi's, Ruka, Giant Robot, Vice.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Fucking even my friends Steve Aoki and like just all every like eighty eight rising. If I sit here, I'll name everyone, but like either they didn't pay me my what they said. Or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me or or they just never paid me. You know, and I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice. And he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw like, and he's like, hey. And it was all punk rock Vice when it was like the big format and he's like, dude. And he just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, dude. Send me a um a drawing of cops beating up this and I did it fast. I did. He's like, I need it by tomorrow. And I was like, I can do it. And then he's like.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  He just was like, hey, uh, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster shit. And I go, but I'm not. He's like, just just do it. And at one point. That was another figure that was resonated my mom of like the rules, the reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going, wait, but I'm not a journalist. I didn't fact check anything. And there was some issues of Vice where I wrote five different articles. Under a woman's name, a black guy's name, you know, like just made up names. Articles just to fill up pages and I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Uh, street, you know, fashion, you know, the do's and don'ts. And I'm just like. You can do that. And like I had already been groomed for that because of my mom. It's like. No, reality doesn't apply. You just, my mom thinks I'm the best artist and now here's, you know.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  So Sean's like, okay. And so I'm in what I feel is like purgatory. The four oh eight San Jose, Milpitas, you know, I'm just like, what the fuck is this like? And I'm telling myself, I gotta get there. When I get to New York, it's like this Golden Gate, like. Go end of the Golden Road, like Wizard of Oz, like when I get there, then something's I'm gonna get discovered. And then someone's gonna be like, and and um. Cause what is it? You know, like what like people like, what is and I go.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  I am a, I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be like a very hard, judgmental hater to myself. And, and so I take this so seriously. Like what we're doing here today is talking. I mean, it's mostly me talking. I could see that, but it's like, we're having a conversation, but I think, without sounding, it's like, I, I think it's important. That's why I'm here. Like I, like I said, like, I'm like, why? I, I feel like I trust you even though I just met you. But like, yeah, I fucking puked down the street because I get, I go, what's the upside? Like, I'm gonna talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean, or I say it the wrong way, or it gets clipped weird or edited. And then I go, and I go, I think it's important.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  I, I wanna come, I wanna talk to you. And I, and that's how I feel about my art. So what is that? What is art? What is creativity? And, and for me, it's like, I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding. Like, I, if I never played sports, I would have never seen another man's penis. You know, like, and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't, I tell, I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. I suck at drawing. And I go, why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself in? Like, who, who said that? Did someone else say that? Or did you say that? They, they start with saying something negative. And I go, and then, and then I go, that's exactly what I say. If they try to teach me how to throw a free throw, I go, oh, this is gonna suck.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  And they go, why did you do that? And so for me, growing up, I grew up with, in a lot of black neighborhoods where the second, you know, I don't know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I fuck up, it's like, look at the Chinese kid fucking try. And then I go, alright, you know what? I'm not even gonna try it, you know? And it's like, well, you should've just come at like five in the morning when no one was there, you know, but like, I was so sensitive. I was like, I don't wanna, so I did things in the, you know, it's, art is a solitary sport for the most part. You know, I'm not, there's no Rob there. There's, it's just me. Like, like even in the thing, it's like this. Like, don't look at my sketchbook. And, but in here, I can fuck up and fix, erase, whatever.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  But so like in sports, you know, it's like you're slapping guys asses. You're taking showers with them. You're you're doing all this like male bonding stuff. You're just spending a lot of times with other men, right? Like, and I'm like, oh, God, like, what is the feeling? I'm trying to isolate the feeling. What like what? And I remember, because I don't like, I tell this stuff not to be like, feel sorry for me. I'm a victim. I don't feel like that. I mean, this, I'm just telling you, I'm telling you what happened. And part of it is you do like, what would you rather? Would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes?

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Or have the whole world read your diary? You know, like these kind of and and luckily I had both happen. You know, I've been beaten to an inch of my life. I've had like, I've had broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've been like everything physically you can think of. And and I'm still here. Right? So there's not much like I I in like, because I have my mom's delusion. Like when I talk to Joe and he's shorter than me, but I I I know he could probably like logically. I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background, but in my head, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass. And he would fucking and and I that's just the way I walk through life. Like, like, I still believe in Santa Claus. People go, I can't believe I just said that.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  I don't. I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that. We're coming up on. No, I know. Christmas.

• 52:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life. Given the probiotics and. Prebiotics and AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome. The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract

• 52:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best. AG1 is now available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical. And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors. If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  I just remember, there's, I don't know, it's changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, "There's no fucking Santa." But I was eight, and I was like, and they're like, "How dumb are you?" And I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus, I go, and they go, "But you've literally never got any presents from Santa." And I'd go to shame, because I'm a bad kid, I cussed. I was like, "I stole stuff from the supermarket," you know, like, and they're like, "Hey, fuckface, Santa's not real." And I just was like, "But he is. I believe that he is."

• 54:10Speaker 00

  And I believe, I go, "There's, there's, him not giving me a present is like, because I put him in this god category, maybe he's not god, but maybe he's a agod, like a demigod or something." And they go, "How is he, how does he know if you're naughty or nice?" I go, "Telepath." "How does he, how does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time?" I'm like, "Oh, he's a mutant, he can multiply, he can make copies of himself." "How's he get through that tiny chimney and go teleport?" Like, I just, it's not even a question, I just know, I believe it. And I don't care how stupid you think, like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it's just like, I just believe that. And you can't say anything to make me not believe that.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  That's my blind faith that I got from my mom. So, like, every Christmas, I'm fifty, I'm almost fifty, I'm a fucking middle-aged man that... And I go, maybe, maybe this is the year I'm ready. But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything. Right? So I, I'm, I'm sitting there and

• 55:18Speaker 00

  I, I, I'm drawing. But I have that story in my head too, like, I suck. Oh, fuck, that doesn't look like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird, you know? And then at some point,

• 55:31Speaker 00

  to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, uh, uh, sorry, just the physical pain, like, it passes. I've broken bones. I've, I've, I've had my face just pummeled, like, just where you wouldn't reckon disfigured. And, but it passes. And I, and if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that stays is like heartbreak. You know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal. Um, cause he just wanted us to start learning how to write and it, it started with, if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. And it was like, we were eight years old, seven years old, just, you know. Today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  The end, you know, it was like that, like a little kid, you know, but he's like, you have to do it. Goonies was cool, you know, so we kept the thing. But then he never asked to read it. He just wanted us to do it. And I was like, oh. So I, I started like getting more brave. I was like, I, I really like this girl at school. And like, and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing because my brothers don't give a shit, like, but then I, the thought of like, what if someone ever read this? So I was like,

• 56:48Speaker 00

  opening myself up and just letting, and I was like, oh my God, like, it felt so good, like, like, I can't tell anyone, like, I'm having these kind of feelings or like, you know, like, I fucking hate dad, you know, like, you know, whatever. And I, I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there. And I shared a room with my brother. So I always did it when he, you know, I thought I was being secretive. And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine, I, it just, you know, as you get better at writing and I, I got more. Once I got more comfortable knowing that no one, I just started writing everything, like, my brother fucking fart smell, like, I wish, you know, just like everything I would write, just, just completely.

• 57:33Speaker 00

  And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it and it, I remember my face just like it felt so hot like like I felt like someone had just like ultimate betrayal. And and it was like being naked. That's why I bring up the like, I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering like slapping like it was the most vulnerable like, they were being so merciless, "Ha, ha, you like her and you did that. I can't believe you," you know, because I wrote everything in that journal and I I thought I I was gonna die from shame and embarrassment. And they're, you know, like the way kids are, brothers can be, it was merciless and they made fun of me for years for that and

• 58:19Speaker 00

  in the same way my face was disfigured and I have had physical abuse and all that.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  I lived through it and I was like, I'm still here. And so, why the fuck am I gonna be a pussy when I draw? When I draw, no more like I'm gonna draw Batman like this artist or that artist. Oh, I'm gonna draw like, you know, like, okay, that's fine. You're like trying to figure out how to work with tools and but and that's fine. Skill craft great, but like this, like showing you like, so there's, I had been trained now

• 58:58Speaker 00

  for heartbreak, right? Like a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, "Yes, we like that." And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow forever. And then you got people like Andre 3000, they're like, "I don't care. I'm gonna, I don't care what, you know, I'm gonna do flute shit." It's like, "Well, we don't like that." And it's like, "I I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm gonna, you got someone like Flea who's like, "I'm gonna just do performance art." And I'm like, "I don't even like half that shit, but I just love them because they're," and I go, "How fucking brave is that? How brave is that?" But I remember.

• 59:40Speaker 00

  Just to this day, right? I am a very successful, established artist. And yet today, there's people like, "It's the fucking worst art I've ever seen." That's the, and I, and I, and I go, "Cool." Like, but, but if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a, like, to pour your, that's you, that's your soul. And someone's like, and then especially if you're trying to sell it, like, "No, thanks." You know? Um, so to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just, not even the art. He's just like, "I like you, like, whatever that is."

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  And then I wanna change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg. And so I meet him with his flip flops and, you know, I meet the whole crew. And I, and I go, "What do you want me to do?" He's like, "I want you to fucking paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared. I want everyone to just be like, 'We're not MySpace. We're not eBay. We're not.'" I want them to be horrified when they come in here. "I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like, everything." And I go, "Indoors, right?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I go, "All right, so just like, cover up your computers and then..." And they're like, "No, we're gonna, we're gonna be working here." And I'm like, "You know how toxic these chemicals?" Like, I work in spray paint, like, I have brain damage because of this shit.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  Like, I, I have like, memory issues. They're like, "We don't care." You know, they're like, young, they're like, "Fuck the world! Hack the world!" Like, all that shit. Hack the world. They love saying, you know? So I was there and they would be like, "Let's fucking blast Daft Punk." Like, I, I don't, this is a world I'm not, you know, I like going into different worlds. And they're like, "We're gonna blast Daft Punk." Because I guess it's like something with the repetitiveness and the Cody. And we're gonna do these hackathons, where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking... It was punk rock. It was like a very nerdy punk rock, but they're like, "We, we don't give a fuck." Like, and I, I like that spirit, but they were such nerds. And they were so earnest. There, there was a, you've never heard people talk like that, where they're talking, they're like, "And we're gonna change the world."

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  And I'm like, "I, I'm into that, whatever that is." And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email. I go, I, I, I, because I'm not on social media. Like, I never, I'm a Luddite. I don't, I'm the last to... Whatever new technology, I'm like, alright, like, I've never touched AI, any of that. And, and so I was like,

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  you guys are trying to be like MySpace, but MySpace is, it's already here, like, for the young people listening, like, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, it was MySpace, it was just dominated. And they're like, yeah, but we're, we're fucking MySpace for Ivy League, you know.

• 1:02:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, that's right, in 2007, that's right, because that was a post, like, in order to get Facebook, you had to have an Ivy League or a Stanford email.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, so you're not the only, so you're not the only one, motherfucker, stolen valor, so.

• 1:02:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it.

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  So I forgot what it was, it was like, choe at Stanford E D U, and, but like, I remember he gave it to.

• 1:02:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  It still exists.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  I, I don't know, he's, he, I remember him giving it to me, like, it's something I wanted. I was just painting, he's like, Dave, you don't have to go, I'll, I'll, I'll get you a Stanford email, and then you could be part of Facebook, I'm like, I don't want to be, I don't, I don't care. I don't care what you, like, you want to be, you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this, like, and they're like, he was like confused. Because he's like, you don't want the, whatever, like, respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford. And I go, no, I, I hate education, I hate learning, I hate teachers, I hate, like, what the fuck are you talking about? And he, he, he was like, I go, why don't you just make it for everybody?

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  And he's like, oh, like, you know, I, the thing is, like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out, because it's just an awesome movie, but it's just, I was there for all of it, and just did not, like, some of the facts are right, but it, it just didn't go down that way, you know? But, so, so Mark is like a genius, and, and Sean, I mean.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Similar to my mother. It's like, I think Naomi's still there. It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  They're just trying to code like, and I'm like, listening to all their conversations and I'm like telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, "Bro, make it for everybody. Don't," you know, like, and they're like,

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  and I would listen in on all their conversations. I'm like, "God, it's so fucking cool. Dave Cho's painting our office." And I was like, "Oh, they like me," you know, like, "I'm being validated, not just by my mother," you know? And so, you know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know? And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand. And it was like a fluke. And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that, but, so I just, I just did some dumb ignorant math. I was like, "Well, that painting was this big," and I'm like,

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  "60 grand," you know, and I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone. And then, at the time, up until going to jail, like I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my, like, I was like, I'm,

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  graffiti doesn't pay the bills, you know?

• 1:05:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Stealing your paint?

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  Stealing everything.

• 1:05:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Was Facebook Office painted with stolen cans?

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  Probably, probably. Um, yes, yes.

• 1:05:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  My graph friends, graph, graffiti for those, I don't know.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  They were like world-class crooks.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean,

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  Exactly. I mean, it's like, it doesn't pay the bills, you know?

• 1:05:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  So, uh, what had transferred, uh, you know, you know, the nature of addiction is if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like, whack a mole. So it whack a mole into my, my background, which is watching my parents take huge, so I got into gambling. So I was just, like, there was every paycheck, anything, it was always. I gotta figure out a way, cause gambling feels like stealing. And it's, you know. And I sat there and I. And people were just like, you work at Facebook, like that's. You know, my friends that aren't in that academia, they're just like, that's like the, the.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  The shitty MySpace, you know, like, look at the font, look at the, you know, all the artsy, like, look at the designs, the fucking, you know. What is that, the, the name, Facebook, come on, like, that's the most creative, you know. And I said, I think, uh, I'm gonna ask them if I could get shares in the company, you know. Um. You under, did you understand equity in that whole thing? I don't understand anything. And it's like, I have shares in other companies that are all worthless, right? Like, it was just, it was growing up with my mom, watching her, that if I didn't have that, like, I just. And I don't even understand that shit, I just. I remember being with, uh, having lunch with, uh, Zuck's, uh, parents and like, you know, he doesn't, he comes from a nice family.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  And, and I think Yahoo or Microsoft, someone had offered him right in the beginning, a billion dollars for it. And he's like, no thanks. And he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground, eating Doritos, and I'm like. Like, you know, I'm trying to like pay my fucking, uh, all my friends back and. I'm like, oh, he doesn't give a shit. He doesn't care about money, like, he cares about, like, what he cares about, it's like such a singular focus, he's like, I wanna fucking disrupt the. I wanna bring the whole world together, it was, you know, youthful idealism. And I remember, uh. Uh, going to work, uh, one day. I just loved working there, cause I don't get jobs like that, where they're like, paint everything, like.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Like, you're, you're here, like, doing this and I'm painting around, like, I'm painting on everything and. And the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting, like, Mark would come and he's like. What is that dude? Like Sean's like, Dave, you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show? Can you, and I was like, you didn't ask for that. You said fucking destroy, like you said scare people when they walk, you know?

• 1:08:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  As I recall, there's like, there was like a big primate, like monkey with jagged teeth and some crazy.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  I was, you know, and I was gassing myself out, you know, like, I'm like doing all that shit without a mask on. It's all going right into my brain. Um, I'm like whoever know, whatever spray, toxic spray paint fumes those to your brain. And there's no fresh air coming in. And I remember Sean Parker, this bronze, this bronze skin, like $200 haircut. Custom suit and I go, who are you, man? And he was doing what my mom was doing. He was just fucking doing pushups and like. And I was like, this skinny little nerd, like just, he was like handsome and. I go, oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit, she used to fucking. And he's like, oh, we're, we're gonna get, we're gonna fucking raise some money, like he was.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  And I go, holy fuck, this guy's so sick, you know? And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into like serious fundraising. And that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel and like just, I was like. This guy's fucking, you know, like people give all the credit to Mark, but I'm like Sean. Guy was, he was an artist in, you know, and also like out of control, which like that attracted each other. And then he was there when they got, when he got fired and all that stuff, but. I remember.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Like the impact that had on me, like just, wow, like. You heard, you've heard the fake it till you make it, right? It's like, I, I know I'm not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so. But Sean Parker, like other people think so. And I'm, but I'm like, but that's whatever. They're just kissing my ass or whatever. And then there can be a switch and, and I think.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  It's like sick and tired of being sick and tired, or enough is enough. Like, I just can't take it anymore. It's like, well, I can't live like this anymore. I feel like I'm trapped. I feel like and so then it's like, oh, you can't travel. You need money for that. Well, I'm gonna hitchhike then. I'm gonna hop on a freight train. I saw the entire world with nothing, no money. Like, well, it must be nice to be rich. I go, I'm rich now. I've had nothing my whole life and I just had to fucking fight for it and like, what I recommended, like, a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail, but also jail didn't hurt me. I lived and I spent some time there. I got to learn who I am and and so

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity, what's business, what what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now and how to like because the other thing I learned from my mom is just adapts. Oh, our business just burned down in the L.A. riots. And instead of like sitting there, it's like, okay, now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. And I'm like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school. I was eighteen, nineteen ninety-four. And it was at this weird comic book, like a high-end comic book store called Comics Top Hits. I'm not a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  I begged the guy for a job. I'm like, please, please. And he's like, all right, fine. The customers seem like, because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways. And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up and I'm like, fuck Stan Lee, like my hero, you know, and he sat there and

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman, Archie, like all the things he didn't work on. Hey, Marvel fans. And he just signed everything. And I'm like, I was like the guy managing the line that day and I'm looking at his hair plugs and I go, "You fucking, like, you didn't fucking invent Batman, you're, you know?" And at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and we're packing up, I'm like, "Stan, dude, you didn't invent Batman, why the fuck you sign that guy's book?" And he's like, "Did you see their faces? Did you see, like, they were so happy, like, why would I, why would I get in the way of their happiness?" And I'm like, "Holy shit, dude." It's like, "Yeah, don't correct people."

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  And I thought about that, like, everywhere I go in the world and there's like, "Ching Chong, China, this." I, I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere on "Ching Chong", and our translator was a French-Vietnamese guy. And he was like, "Dave's Korean, I'm Vietnamese." It's like, you're just, they don't give a shit, dude. They don't give a fuck. And I remember just, the things I'm talking about is like, watching Sean Parker's shapeshift, watching my mom's shapeshift, watching, um, act as if you belong. Act as if you have a seat at the table. It's like, "Oh, the fucking..." It's like, I know that's part of being an artist, is being like shy, nerdy, oh, self-conscious. It's like, just pretend like you're the best artist in the world.

• 1:13:13Speaker 00

  Like, you just show up and you're like, put like, this is the journey from the head to heart. You're, you, this is a, I, I like when you talk because you, you make sense. But there's, and that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I've met, because they try to apply logic to everything. And you're applying logic to spiritual problems. You're applying logic to emotional problems. And it's like, how's that working out for you? It's not, it's not, you're never gonna outthink a feeling. You're never gonna outsmart a feeling, like, you're like, "Wait, the, the, these people are act, like, why, who would do that? Why, why would you do that?" And I'm like, "Because it's not logical."

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  It's, it's an emotional thing, it's a, it's a, it's a mentally ill, whatever it is, it's a, it's not logic-based, it's emotion-based, it's mentally ill-based, it's spiritual-based. Like, you can't fuck with people's religion or what they have faith in or, and, and all this stuff. So I'm, I'm watching, I, I remember going... Stefan correcting the black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting angrier. The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirmed that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It's like, people are dumb out there. That's fine. I don't care. I'm dumb. I'm stupid. It's like when someone corrects me, it makes me feel shame and dumber. But then if no one corrects me, it's like, then it's my own shit to figure that out, or not, right?

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  So, watching these people, like, very successful people in my life.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  My mom, she's like unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, "Okay, I guess we're doing this now." Like, she doesn't hang on. She's like, "Hang on tightly, let go lightly," right? It's just like, "Okay, we were real estate people, now we're doing Herbalife." "Oh, that happened, Mark Hughes died, okay, now we're doing this." Like, she just goes like that, like, adapts to any situation. And like, right now, I get a call a week from

• 1:15:11Speaker 00

  all artist, creative types that there, it's our, you know, and we don't have to have an AI talk. I don't, I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right? Everyone's like, "I spent my life doing sound engineering, and now it's gone." Just like the guy who would do the, like, hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone and now photographer, like, it's just, it's gone. Like, you could sit there and start complaining, or you could just keep adapting. And so, I think true creativity, you can't contain. If you're, if you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, you know, people are like, "Oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist?" Absolutely, but you've already suffered enough. It's already done. Like, whatever happened to you in your childhood,

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  that's enough fuel for the rest of, you don't have to continually, but I see myself and others at times, like, I, I hopefully am better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in a si- the situation to like, suffer more and more and more. And I, and I, and I just, I just remember the, the shame of...

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  My, my, like, it's just these things, they're, they're, they're, you know, decades ago, but they're still like, my dad just like throwing me a, like, we left another country so you could be a criminal? Event, like, just, he was like, I'll just kill us all now. We were in the car leaving the police station. He's like, I'm gonna crash the car. And I was like, I was in the back, like, kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like, feeling mixed emotions. Going from like victim to sorry to like, well, fuck you then. And, you know, all, everything in between.

• 1:16:45Speaker 00

  And then, um, just going, I accept now.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  I accept. Sorry, am I close enough to the microphone?

• 1:16:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're good.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  Am I close to the microphone?

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  Um, just going, I, I'm, I'm gonna choose to believe what my mom believes in me. I'm the greatest artist on the planet. I was in my twenties. I was like, fuck it. Like, going into galleries, looking at comic books and, um, can I tell you one quick fuck you Sean Parker story? So at, at the, at the time I was doing Facebook, like, things were happening. Like, I had a Vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash. I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do a erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z, Linkin Park's mashup album cover. And it's like, I needed the money and I need, and it was just like,

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  it, things, I was like, it's starting to happen. Like, things are, you know, and and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing. So they hadn't blown up yet, you know? And, uh, they gave me the job and I'm like, the biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together and they want me, little me to do the, I felt so, I mean, they fucking butchered the art, the, I gave them the art and they just made it look shitty. They put a shitty font on it. They put a, like, they did fake graffiti spray. I was like, what the fuck did you, whatever. Anyways, that's a whole other thing. But, um,

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  I, you know, I'm like, cool, like, what's that gonna pay? Like, you know, like, and they're like, two grand. I'm like, wait, you know, it's like this, one day I'm gonna make it and my name's gonna be in lights and, and I, and I knew other artists, so like, uh, Mirror did, uh, the Limp Bizkit cover, Shepherd Ferry did, so I, I knew them well enough where I was like, hey, guys, am I getting fucked right now? Or, and they're like, no, that's typical. I go, that's what they pay artists for? I mean, cause back in the day when I was doing art, paintings, whatever, galleries, uh, or illustrations, that was the range, two hundred to like, two thousand at the most, if you're doing like a cover or something, but,

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  I'm like, an album cover for, and they're like, no, that's what they pay. And I was like,

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  damn dude, I thought this was, this is big time, you know? And so I negotiated for that at the same time I'm working at Facebook and I drew this crazy cover. And they're like, yeah, that's for the rights for the album cover, right? So then, I don't know, the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere. They use it on billboards, like friends reading comic books and it's like, oh, they did a full page ad. And I go, like, for illustration, that's a separate fee, right? It's like, here's the rights to use on the album cover, here's for advertising, right? And so I'm talking to, I don't know anything, right? I'm a fucking horrible street artist, oh, I call myself a street artist. Uh, delete that from the microphone. Ah, sorry.

• 1:19:53Speaker 00

  Um, so I, I'm, you know, and you, you could like, bleep the names or whatever, cause I, I clearly remember. So I call Warner Brothers and I go, hey, uh, can I talk to whoever's in legal or whatever? And I go, yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful. And they said, there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, you know, bus bench usage, magazine editorial, you know? You know, magazines used to be big, you know, Tower Records, Virgin Register and.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  I remember the arrogance on this guy Chip. He was like their head legal. He doesn't work there anymore. And he's like, and I, I remember the way he talked to me felt like my child like just made me feel. He's like, you're some shitty graffiti, like who the fuck are you? You know, like, why am I wasting my time talking to you? And I go, well, and he started like just hitting me with legalese. And I go, hey, I'm raising my hand right now. You can't say I'm raising my hand saying, I don't understand what you're saying. Can, can you please talk to me and like, can you dumb dumb down? Like you're trying, you're like trying to beat me up with words right now. I'm just saying, you know, it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you guys did. I'll be happy with another five or, you know, just like trying to talk.

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  And he's like, I don't know who the fuck you think you are. And it was like very condescending. And I, and I, I remember the arrogance of, I was like, I could be recording this call or, you know, but he was just. And I was like, for a guy named Chip, that's such a weird, you know?

• 1:21:26Speaker 00

  You could come at us with lawyers, you could, it's like, and you may be even right. But guess what? You're fucking with Warner, like you will never win. Like you will never get another dime out of us. I'm like, holy fuck that, what a fucking. And like I said, like, if you're gonna be like, people are like, oh, I love painting, then just paint. Like, oh, I want to be, it's like, you know how fucking hard it is to make money as a creator? It's like, you gotta fight, you gotta get a thick skin and you better be ready to. Like I had to threaten Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me. I was like, you asked me for these drawings. I did them, I delivered them on time and you're giving me the checks in the mail. And I called like Wyden and Kent, you know, whatever, Oregon. And I was like, I live in LA.

• 1:22:09Speaker 00

  It's gonna take me this many hours to drive and I'm gonna, I don't know which car is yours. I'm gonna blow up every car. Check was in the mail the next day. I'm like, why did I have to do that? Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the, but most artists go, and then they just get fucked over, right? So that's part of being an artist is getting fucked over, not getting paid what you deserve, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:22:29Speaker 00

  So I'm like obviously sensitive and painting like in a bad mood and Sean's like, "What dude, what's up Dave, where are you?" And I told him what I just told you and he's like, you know, Facebook has like big money behind it now, it's growing. He's like, "Oh, we got a multimillion dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow in the meeting." And I was like, he goes, "Check this out." So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers and they're like full, like, you know, everyone's at the long table and they're like, "Oh, we want to advertise with Facebook" and da, da, da, and this is the new, this is the new world and da, da, da. And they're like, "Okay, cool." And it's like, you know, it's like millions of dollars or whatever, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And he's like, "Yeah, but that guy Chip fucked with my friend Dave Cho, so we're not doing shit with you guys." And he just, and I was like,

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  this guy's my dog forever. Like, like, what, how, like, like, just does no fucks given, right? I was like, I cried, I gave him a hug. I was like, "Don't fuck with me. Don't fuck with me." Like, it felt so good. It felt so fucking good. I was like, and then I found out you got fired and all that shit's like, I was like, "Yeah, sometimes the little guy wins," you know, like, it felt so good.

• 1:23:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs, or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function,

• 1:24:24Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 1:25:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a waitlist of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

• 1:25:28Speaker 00

  So I got all the typical shame and all that. And to be fair, if you're my dad and you fucking escaped a war and famine to raise your family in America, and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, like, you're gonna, you're not gonna... So I give him that, you know? But I just, I was, I felt, I didn't know where I belonged. You know, I'm like, I couldn't process, maybe I have dyslexia. I was in school and it just, I couldn't, none of the information. I was like, this is so hard. Like, people, like, I would try really hard to get a C, right? Where other people were like, oh, okay, you know, X. I was like, why is there a X in math?

• 1:26:12Speaker 00

  And they were like, Dave, and they dumb it down and dumb it down. I'm like, I'm retarded. I think I need to go to that class. Like, I'm, like, I felt, like, I felt, because both of my brothers have, like, really high IQs. And I'm like, I'm stupid. Like, I, you know, so I felt really small in that area. And I made up the story, like, I suck at sports. I go, so this is it. This is all I'll ever be good at. So, and now I'm gonna fully buy in to what my mom's saying. And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, like, I'm like... It's not a fa- I am good. I, it wasn't like I am gonna be the best. I was like, I just adopted, I am the best artist in the world.

• 1:26:54Speaker 00

  And to that power of thought, like I sat down and I'd go to muse- I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this? I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like tiny detailed pen draw- like everything. And I was like, and I was like, overcomp- I'm like, I'm gonna be good at all of it. Oil painting, like there, so people go, what, what kind of artist? I'm like, I'm an artist, everything. When I talk, when I make music, like I am going from, I'm a piece of shit, I suck to like, like, you know, not healthy, but you know, it's like, I am art god, you know, like, and so I was like, in my twenties,

• 1:27:37Speaker 00

  just like, brain wa- like waking up and then like, that's not how I naturally woke up. I woke up like, oh fuck, you know, and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that on, like, you're the greatest, you're the, you know, like, hypnotizing myself. You're the best, you're the fucking best. You're the, you're the greatest, you know.

• 1:27:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Were you doing any like reading books? Cause at the time, when you and I are basically the same age.

• 1:27:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um, back then, it wasn't a lot about like neuroscience and this and that and like actualization. It was all kind of, you know, hidden away, but there was this, there were, you know, there was like the Tony Robbins type stuff and there was the, there was this idea in infomercials and stuff that like, that you could program your mind. Sounds like you just basically took all that on, without any of that.

• 1:28:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff. I, I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of pornography. I guess this kind of can, I could,

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  fit my Pee Wee Herman story if we're talking about publishing. It's hard to talk about this cause kids ask me all the time, like, how'd you make it in art? And like, nothing I did applies to today. You know, it's like, I went to Kinko's, I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make more copy. Cause colored copies are 99 cents. It's like, who has? So I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best. Make these like mini color copy packets. So that's ten dollars. And then I would go to the newsstand and write the address like Rolling Stone. Like all the magazines that had prestige and like CF Paint, Kent Williams, Baron Story. Like all these amazing illustrators that would would work for Time Magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy. Like they would all use.

• 1:29:15Speaker 00

  So I would open the the front page where it had the heading of art direct and I would write, write it down. And the newsstand guys like, I sound like a boomer right now. Like, you know, it's like, who the fuck, like, there's kids listening right now. There's a magazine, what's that, you know? But that's what I had to do. And I would be like, which magazine do I want to send this ten dollar packet that I just? And then I have to mail it to him. Hopefully like they get that letter and not some other department, you know? And then you just rejection letter after, you know, like, sorry, sorry, sorry. And so I'm, I'm, I'm sitting down and I'm, I'm like, I'm, I'm ingesting all this.

• 1:29:55Speaker 00

  And I, and I have the, I have the fire and I'm like sitting down and I go, that like what? Why is that drawing successful? Why do, you know, and of course, there's tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world. But I didn't know that at the time, right? It's like, oh, that guy's dad owns fucking water. Like that guy, you know? So I would just sit there and I, I would be like, that guy drew this much. I'm going to draw ten, like, that guy did this and I'm gonna draw, you know, and I, and I just. Some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had like at least seven layers, if not more. Just layering and layering and dense and it was me.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  It's like a musician that's like, I have to, like, I, I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and, and Flea doing Give It Away now. And he was just like, you know, he can do, but he was like, just do, like, just play less. And back then it wasn't. It was like, I need to show everyone what I'm capable of, which is I can draw better than you. I can paint, I have to show you that. Now I don't care, but back then it was, and it, and it isn't that. Art is a, it's not who can put the most lines down or, you know? And so I'm. I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, and it was just, everyone has their own path. But I remember year 2000.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  I'm doing graffiti, I'm getting some gigs to do murals, you know, it's just slowly starting. And someone contacted me at Marvel Comics. And I was like, man, I didn't even try and like, this is, this is it, this is my dream. And they were, we want you to draw the X-Men, but like, a cool, cool X-Men. I'm like, fuck, I didn't even have to go to portfolio day, I didn't have, you know. And I go, oh, I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm what, 23 at the time, you know?

• 1:31:45Speaker 00

  And I start drawing it, and I guess they fired me? Or they didn't fire me, they just decided to use a different artist, but they never told me? So I'm still drawing it, and I'm, you know, I'm a passive aggressive angry kid already. And I didn't email, some people had emails, but a lot, like a lot of artists hadn't. This is the beginning of the internet, like people weren't using it the way they do now. And I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like, hey Dave, you got fired off the X-Men book? And I go, what? How did you know? And they go, you don't use the internet? And I go, what is that? And they showed us, and I felt shame again, I was like, oh my god, like, I was so excited to...

• 1:32:25Speaker 00

  Like, there's little things in my head, like, if I do a comic book, that means I made it. And I wrote the most scathing, homophobic, racist, like, just, I was mad. I thought it was funny. I was 23 at the time. And it was like 10 pages long, but I didn't know the editor of Marvel. It's probably not even him, it was just, and I didn't know how to get it to him. So I just went to Marvel's website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel. Like, copy, paste. And the next day was my first experience in the year, you know, Y2K, 1999, 2000 of going viral. They're like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, we don't know who the fuck this kid is? But he just committed career suicide?

• 1:33:10Speaker 00

  And then once again, shame. And so like, if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, what's, what's the through line? And we should have made the secret word shame, but, um, oh, I'm a shame chaser. Like, I get high off shame, like, what's my drug? Oh, workaholics, it's like, my, my drug that I've chased my whole life is shame and anger. Like, fucking powerful drug, you know? And so...

• 1:33:36Speaker 00

  I couldn't believe it. I was like, I'm never gonna get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine, and I have, and I have at this point, and I went through the back door, which I always do, it's true, true vandal, but I just remember going, holy fuck, this is the worst day of my life. Like, people that I look up to, they're like, there was like, a whole thing of like, I don't know who this Dave show, I've never heard of him, but he's a horrible human being, listen, you know, and I was like, but, there was context, like, you should have heard how I saw, heard it in my head, like, I was, you know, and they're like, oh, it looks different, and I was like, holy fuck, and that was my first experience of like, of just feeling, like, me following a pattern

• 1:34:16Speaker 00

  of trying to replicate hatred towards me, like, if it's, but not knowing it, I'm just like, oh, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, and, and like, some ignorance, some playing dumb, some, like, repeating patterns, like a monkey without knowing, and, and so, I had a friend in comics at the time, because I was just like, I don't, I was just making, I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in my head, and just tagging up everything, like, the, the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do, people's cars, houses, like, I wanted someone to kill me, like, I didn't care, like, I wanted someone to be like, dude, I worked hard for that car, and you

• 1:34:58Speaker 00

  just ruined it, and, and in my head, I'm like, but I'm a famous artist, which I wasn't, I'm 23, and they're like, I just made your car more valuable, that's how I'm thinking, but, I was out of my mind.

• 1:35:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a question about the shame?

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:35:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  I have a friend, he's a addiction, trauma counselor guy, amazing guy, he's been on this podcast, his name is Ryan Suave, he, he has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing. We haven't talked a lot about addiction yet today, but, you said you got addicted to the shame, and do you think, I mean, who knows, here I'm using my intellectual brain, but-

• 1:35:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you think that the that these oscillations of like your your mindset like I'm a great artist? I'm the greatest artist sets it up so the shame is that much deeper like it's like loading a spring?

• 1:35:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because he told me once, Ryan once told me he's worked with addict heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything. And he just said, you know, he goes gambling addiction is the worst. Because the next time really could change it all. And he said, but there's something really interesting and that happens to gambling addicts. He goes, eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing.

• 1:36:20Speaker 00

  Happens really quick. So I have my own feelings about this subject. I'm a severe gambling addict. Like I told you, I'm going to time jump. So I'm at the, you know, I'm at that point, but I'll jump to current, which is, which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about. But, you know, I'm here, so I'll just go there.

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  Shame is is so powerful because

• 1:36:53Speaker 00

  at this point, I've been to all the 12 step meetings. I've been to debtors anonymous, business owners, debtors anonymous, overeaters anonymous, workaholics, you know, sex and love addicts, sex addicts, gambling, like every single. And so what's the through line? Every single one is gambling. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Your life could be over and you're, you know, if you overeat and you're diabetic. It's just every fucking addiction is. So it's addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. And your your scientist friend nailed it.

• 1:37:33Speaker 00

  It's as I explore my feelings, you know, because the people, what are you running from, Dave? I was like, well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I hate myself. So I'm just running. So as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just, just, just hopping on a train like, like literal running, like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second like.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  What are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm fucking, you know, at a casino. I'm traveling, doing the news for Vice. I'm painting at this. Like, I can't. I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself. And I can't do that. I can't do that.

• 1:38:22Speaker 00

  I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now.

• 1:38:30Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:38:33Speaker 00

  You know what feels good? Winning a lot of money. Not working for it and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off Baccarat or Blackjack, what people don't make in a lifetime. That's a fucking. That's an insane feeling.

• 1:38:55Speaker 00

  How many shits do you think I took today before I came here? Rob, how many?

• 1:39:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Two.

• 1:39:01Speaker 00

  Two. One big one and one little one. Like.

• 1:39:06Speaker 00

  Scientists don't know what causes IBS.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  I do. It's stress. When I was gambling, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least. Just like.

• 1:39:22Speaker 00

  Okay, like just like. And you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and like. Nothing. Nothing like I was. You know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say. I didn't feel anymore, right? Like, the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I'd already been beaten the shit out of. I've already been molested before. I already. Whatever you could do to me, you've already done to me and I'm still here. What can you do to me that I? Like, I'm my worst enemy. Like, I beat myself up, right?

• 1:40:03Speaker 00

  When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when like, I take one shit a day now. When this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast.

• 1:40:13Speaker 00

  I start stressing, I've taken, when was that, like a few weeks ago? It's, it, oh shit dude, I just took three shit, it started again. Cause I don't have stress in my life anymore, or like, I have,

• 1:40:24Speaker 00

  whatever, normal family stress, but I don't have, oh, you're gonna say something on some guy's show and then your life's gonna be ruined again, you know, like that's, I've done that so many times, it's like,

• 1:40:35Speaker 00

  so, I'm like, fuck, I just woke up, I just already took a shit, why do I gotta take another one, I'm like, oh, the IBS is coming back because

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  there's a part of me that's like, I hope I say something horrible today, cause then I could feel that again. And so what people, when they're listening to this, and I don't know if I'm making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't, but if you're an addict, it will make sense to you, if you're, if, like, everyone listening to this is either an addict, or, or that someone in their life is, like, their family member or their friend, but at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone's an addict, right? You can't, you can't stop, it's just impossible. You, you will never, you will never find anything more addictive than a phone, right? So in the time that, like, I haven't been in an actual casino in ten years, I've banned from all these casinos, the whole world became a casino.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  You can't go anywhere without gambling, fucking lottery, you can go on your phone, you could bet on, you know, anything, right? So,

• 1:41:34Speaker 00

  so, at first, in every addiction, you wanna win, oh, fuck that, you know, I, I, I can't, I can relate to drugs and alcohol, even though I don't do that, but like, that must feel good to like, get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party, or,

• 1:41:50Speaker 00

  so, eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate, that I never thought I would eat in my life, and then, okay, that's good, your body feels good, why do you need to eat until you're puking and you become like, binging and purging, like what? Because, what you don't understand, because you're applying logic to it, is, I want to fucking hurt, I want the shit, like, winning a million dollars feels fucking great. Losing ten million dollars feels even better. Well, that doesn't make any sense, like, getting married feels awesome, I mean, I'm just making shit up, but like, put, put like, greatest day of my life, right?

• 1:42:32Speaker 00

  Like, greatest day of my life, and it does, I could get dark, I'll try not to use dark examples, but-

• 1:42:38Speaker 00

  When, when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs and having one of the best days of your life, like just when it's on the good side, it feels, that's why you do it. Heroin fucking feels good. I've never done it, but the description of it is like, that sounds awesome. Why would you not do it again? But then when you're fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for a fucking crack, like, that's another high where you're at the bottom. And that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was. And so, I don't fucking know Andrew besides his online persona, right? Like we're, this is our first

• 1:43:19Speaker 00

  time meeting in person. It's like, I, this is not me being a know-it-all. Like, humans are not that difficult to understand. We're very simple, like,

• 1:43:33Speaker 00

  I, I called him immature a little bit before, not to be insulting. It's just like, part of me is like, this is me being a hater. Like, I, I love everybody, but I'm just like, what fucking adult gets tattoos? Like, what kind of fucking adult gets? And I know you got fucking tattoos. And I'm like, who fucking just like throws their shit away to become a skater? And then,

• 1:43:56Speaker 00

  like, are you okay with me asking you question? Like, were you sexually abused? Were you?

• 1:44:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, no, I was, I mean, I knew, I had friends that were, I, I lucked out. I had one guy come at me that, I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto. Maybe you saw it, Palo Alto Toy and Sport. It was like down, down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there did that. Uh, I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on him. I made him apologize to me in front of everybody. And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our tensions. My mom's from New Jersey.

• 1:44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  She's old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her,

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  that she would actually kill him.

• 1:44:35Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:44:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like actually kill him. Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year.

• 1:44:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  She, like that maternal aggression, that protectiveness.

• 1:44:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  She would have killed him. So I remember being, Like not worried about me, worried that she was gonna kill him. You know, and then, um, but no, I, I lucked out there.

• 1:44:59Speaker 00

  I perceive you as a brilliant man, and this is, this is me gathering data and facts in my life, not, I don't know what the, but, you know, you know, very smart. I know geniuses, you know, geniuses. The smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, the more on the spectrum they are, the greater the trauma they experience, because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it, or you learned that as mental jujitsu to, like, these people I know in my life that are just brilliant, like, they're just, they can comprehend things that most people can, they could create. Their childhood was so fucking unsafe,

• 1:45:40Speaker 00

  abandonment, you know, and usually, that's why I asked you about, it's usually sexual trauma, because that's, that has, carries the most shame, that they're like, oh, I was small, I couldn't defend myself, that unless I become like, like a jujitsu master or fighter, how can I protect myself in it's with this? So then, something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room. And they can just destroy you verbally, they can destroy you in a courtroom, they can just, they can just, and, and, and so, yeah, to answer the, you become a shame chaser. You get high off shame, and it's like, uh, it's even shameful to admit out loud. And so, like, I could sit here and like, if I'm being present with, current with up to date, like, I have a great life.

• 1:46:26Speaker 00

  Like, I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past, and I, I have, uh, you know, I tell on myself all the time. When old patterns come up, I, you know, I have a therapist, I got a men's group, I got friends who love me, I, I, I, I raise my hand, I go, I, I need help, which I never did before. I grew up with, shut the fuck up and figure it out. That's, my whole, my whole childhood was a question mark. Where are we going? What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so, there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment, it's just like, And so I just, everything, and that's probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions. Cause I didn't know what was happening and my parents were just like working all the time. They're like, I don't know, stay at this house or this. And I was just like, who are these people? Like, what's happening?

• 1:47:11Speaker 00

  What's, why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th? You know, like, why am I getting on a plane? It's like, it was just like, just shut up, just, just go along to get along. And so part of, part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do, then, then the world shits on me, then everything horrible. The second I fucking speak up, scream, get the fuck out, like just do graffiti, break the law. Then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover. Then I get Sean Parker. It's like, and you know, I talked to all the jackass guys about this. It's like, you're rewarded for bad behavior. You get to be the president.

• 1:47:52Speaker 00

  You get to, you know, like, the more I act, and it's so, in one way, okay, that's for career, right? But like, what about, it just runs hell on your personal life. And that's why when I, when I'm in my addiction and I'm chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them. So I go, I, I need to, and I don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom. Like, I'm like, I, I'll, I'll handle it. That's how I grow myself up. And it doesn't need to be like, like I said, brilliance is found in Milpitas and Palo Alto and Gilroy. Brilliance is found in the mundane, sitting in the waiting room. Brilliance is found in these like quiet moments.

• 1:48:31Speaker 00

  And so it's like, I don't need to go to rehab and have like this fucking movie role kind of, it's just like, it's a phone call. It's like, let me do this. And so, um, the feelings, the, the chemistry that it's like, when, when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip, and you're just sitting there like.

• 1:48:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  No worries.

• 1:48:58Speaker 00

  Um, hopefully I didn't get any on the microphone.

• 1:49:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's that line from that 80s movie? It's not a party till something's broken? I always liked that line. Cause it excuses it immediately. Some breaks, folks, you just say.

• 1:49:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, in this case.

• 1:49:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's not a party till something's broke.

• 1:49:14Speaker 00

  In this case, it was my soul, you know? So, so I was very reckless with, with my heart. I treated myself very poorly. I, I didn't care for, I didn't care what happened to me. And so as I jumped from addiction to addiction, it's like, oh, which is the one I could hide in plain sight? The one that you're in right now? Workaholism. As long as you work all the time, as long as you're providing people, like, as long as you're helping people and being of service, then that's good, right? But what is being neglected in that? This, like, I mean, I, I don't tell this to everyone, but like someone in your situation that,

• 1:49:54Speaker 00

  you know, you have life changes coming up and I already know your answer, but I would, I would ask, why not take one year off? Like why, and it's like, well, I got my this and I'm an important Stanford guy and I got, yeah, but that will like, like, you only got one life and you know, there's something about it

• 1:50:16Speaker 00

  that feels

• 1:50:19Speaker 00

  like when I'm in my workaholism, like that's the one where I get in this society, a pat on the back. Good, good job, Dave. And, um,

• 1:50:29Speaker 00

  you know, the, the Sean Parker story with the, with the Warner Brothers, that was a win. I was like, fuck you, you know?

• 1:50:36Speaker 00

  But it was, it was so much.

• 1:50:42Speaker 00

  Can I tell my Peewee Herman story? There's some shame in that. I'll, I'll, I'll bring it around.

• 1:50:50Speaker 00

  I'm, I, I just don't, I'm, you know, part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience. Like, I just, once I accepted what my mom is saying true, I am the greatest artist in the world, according to Jane Cho, and now I'm gonna start, you know, not at first, but like, I'll start to believe that too. Cause you gotta, it's, it's so scary doing graffiti, you know, not in a crew, not in a gang, to just go out and it's like, it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook, and no one's gonna see it, right? You fuck up, whatever, but to draw something big on a wall, and everyone going down the 101 freeways, like, thousands of people will see it before 8 o'clock. Like, that sucks, that guy has no can control, that guy, and there's like, you're, you're naked.

• 1:51:35Speaker 00

  You're like, this is what's inside me, and I did it 40 feet long, and here it is, and they're like, it sucks. Shame, I'm chasing shame, like, it's like, what would it feel like if everyone's like, dude, that's the fucking masterpiece? Not as cool, not as cool. So, I, I'm just, I'm doing the thing, I'm sending my art out, and La Brea used to have a lot of galleries, and I, and I, and in my head, I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those, I would be like, and I'd go down the street, and I'm like, oh, they show that, I would keep a record of what kind of art they show, that I'd skate back to my house and paint like that style, but better, in my mind, better,

• 1:52:18Speaker 00

  and then I'd make a new portfolio, and I'd go down like, and they're like, who, who the fuck, like, like, it's like a, like, you have to be shown first before they'll even take, and I go, but, you know, so it's just anger, more frustration, coming out sideways, coming out doing more graffiti, shoplifting, food to like, you know. So then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose, where there was a, a ice cream shop called Double Rainbow, and there's this wonderful lady named Candace there, and I was saying how I'm talking now, first, like, out loud, and my art's just right here, and she's like, let me see, and I show it to her, and she's like, this is amazing. I go, I fucking know, dude, I'm the best, and she's like, alright, just chill the fuck out, alright? She's like, put it up on the wall, and then my ego goes, in a fucking ice cream shop?

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  And I go, well, I guess no one else is offering that, okay, so it was like, not this, it wasn't like... Minimalist, it was floor to ceiling. Hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on, like this is singular, just. I'm the best and I need to show you. It wasn't like tasteful, like here's one painting and let that breathe. And it was just like, here's, you know? And people are coming in there buying like mint chocolate chip, going, oh, that's pretty cool, you know? And so every day I would get a call, love your art, wanna buy it. I'm like, fuck yeah, here we go. Like, two dollars. I'm like.

• 1:53:43Speaker 00

  You know how long I spent on that art? And you know, and I just was like, fifty bucks? So, you know, I'm twenty, this is like early two thousands. I'm like, that's, that's less than the art supplies that I stole, to be fair. But still, I'm like, can you cover the cost of materials? And they're like, yeah, it's good, but you know, can you, just like haggling, like five, ten? I'm like, that's what a fucking print or sticker costs. Like, this is an original painting, you know? And I remember I got a call one day and it's this, these, these things that I keep, the stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know?

• 1:54:25Speaker 00

  And the guy's like, I'll trade you a car for like that giant painting, the one that I spent months on. And of course, it's like nineteen seventy-two Plymouth Fury, no brakes, like cracked wind, you know, just a complete fucking beater, like piece of shit. But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing is like, I traded my art for a car, for an, you know? Oh, yeah? And like, you don't need to know the details of the car, you know? And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for like two, three hundred dollars, you know? He's like, just get this shit off my lawn, you know? And I remember this is how I drove it. I would drive it and there was no brakes. So I had to, there was like fuel and I had to pump it like a, a block before.

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  Or, and then I would always hit the car like ding, like that's what, and the guy would say, hey, what the fuck? And I'd be like, sorry. And I had no money to fix it, but I was just in my head, I, I did it. I fucking, I did it. I, you know, like small victories, little victories.

• 1:55:25Speaker 00

  And then my friends like, uh, like in, like I knew all like the indie zine, like make your own fucking punk rock, like. Uh, and I would just get rejection letter after, just, just a continuation of, you're not enough. Your art's not that good. You suck. Just, and then maybe they wouldn't say that, but that's how I took every, you know? Not at this time, not for us. Uh, rejection letter from Playboy, from Rolling Stone. And, and I just remember one of my friends, he just always had like nice sketchbooks. And I go, what, where are you getting that money? Like, you do, you're a full-time artist? And he was like a dirty punk rock guy. And he's like, you know, the skin rags pay just as much.

• 1:56:06Speaker 00

  It's like they have none of the prestige and like, you know, I went to the Tower Records warehouse once. Where, uh, they distributed a calendar I made and it's like, here's, here's like this whole table is the warehouse. This is like, you know, Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, this, and all of this is porn, right? So, you know, you don't wanna brag about that, but that's just, they're like, they pay literally the same amount as Rolling Stone, but it's not Rolling Stone. So I go, okay, I guess I'm doing that. So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where you, you know, there's a curtain and I go back and I start.

• 1:56:44Speaker 00

  You know, butthole fever, just start writing down the art director's name.

• 1:56:49Speaker 00

  And, uh, that was the thing is like, I cared. I cared so much about, it was important to me. It, it saved me. Art saved me. So it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota or like, you know, I just was like, this is, you're still looking at me. Even though if I'm doing a corporate job, like I'm, I'm in there and I need you to see me and I am, I'm, even though if I hate the job and you're not even paying me, I'm still gonna do my best, no matter what. Like it's, I have pride in my work, you know? And I, and I, I get that from my parents also. And I, and I love that. I, I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the food because I know the waiter is like running to bring me water and he cares. Like anytime, that's the secret ingredient to anything.

• 1:57:32Speaker 00

  Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it's such a warm feeling, you know? And I cared. I care, and I still do. I care a lot. Like I sit here, I don't give a fuck. I, I do. I care maybe too much. So I write the number for, you know, I try the legit ones for his penthouse in Playboy and they're like, nope, nope. I'm like, I guess I go to a hustler and Buttman and, you know, Asian Fever and

• 1:58:02Speaker 00

  I get a call from Buttman, you know, they're like, "These butthole paintings you did, they're, they're just, they're so good." And I'm like, "I worked really hard on it." You know, it's not like what I want to be doing, but, and they're like, "Can you, can you come in?" And it's just true to their title. That's all it is. It's just all anal. There's no stories about anal, there's page after page and they go, "Can you do like this?" But like, every week I'm like, "What do you need?" They're like, you know, "Superman fucking Lois Lane, anal, Spider-Man, you know, midgets, like whatever, like just all anal."

• 1:58:42Speaker 00

  And I go, "I can do that. I would, I would love to do that." And like, we pay, you know, a couple hundred bucks. I was like, and I took it serious. It wasn't like a, it was like, this is my, and a lot of actually famous artists would do that, but under fake names and they didn't want to be associated their real art with that. I was like, and, and

• 1:59:02Speaker 00

  so I did, I did all this art for Buttman. Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I, I remember everyone's name. It was, uh, art director was Heidi. She was so sweet. She's like, it's just like, I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, "Oh, it's not just my mom, like other people like it, you know." But in the, also this massive narcissist is like, "I'm the best." And like, "No, I'm not that good," you know, but like, it's like both, you know? And, um,

• 1:59:33Speaker 00

  I don't know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked at. They would always go, you got such funny story, like, do you got any? You know, and I was like, I think I'd been with one girl, they're like, you have any like butthole stories? And and I had been trained by, you know, black belt in lying, my mom, you know, she like, yeah, of course. Like, I don't even, it was so easy for me. They're like, oh, because these these depictions of anal sex are so, they're so graphic and fantastic. And every time you come in, you have some weird story, like, do you do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this? And I go, oh, yeah, like, super racist against Asians.

• 2:00:15Speaker 00

  I go, oh, yeah, like Suzy Suzuki, like, just making up fake names. And they're like, you know, someone named Suzy Suzuki? I go, oh, yeah, yeah. She goes, you think she would write about her experiences? And I'm like, how dumb is this lady? Like, I don't fucking know anyone named Suzy, like, what the fuck? And she goes, it's forty bucks a story. And I'm like, cool, like, they're paying me hundred fifty, two hundred bucks for this. I'll, so I go home and I would just write the most ridiculous. Hi, don't speak English. You know, this is the voice I hear in my head. I come to America, need a job, and just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy like. And then he put in the wrong hole and pornography.

• 2:00:58Speaker 00

  I became a pornographer, like, I'm not, it's not like the proudest moment of my life, but I'm like, oh, God. You know, if God's looking down on me, probably, you know, but once again, shame, I'm cool with it. I I've made, I've made myself at home, like, most people, they change their name, but I was like, this is what I do. I'm a fucking, you know. So here we go again, my fucking poor parents, you know, so I'm living at home, right? So I can't hide, I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti. I didn't, they see the spray paint, they see the fucking paint on all my clothes.

• 2:01:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti?

• 2:01:33Speaker 00

  No, I hated it.

• 2:01:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay.

• 2:01:34Speaker 00

  I just, it's, I have so much respect for that, like, it's, it's everything, it's physicality, you're.

• 2:01:43Speaker 00

  You're climbing, you're ninja, it's like fucking Navy SEAL, like it's crazy, like you need to do a detail of a nose while you're balancing on barbed wire, I mean it's Yeah, those kids are crazy. It's insane, I'm like, fuck dude, these people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could have been like Navy SEALs, Green Berets, whatever.

• 2:02:04Speaker 00

  So my dad, of course, find, you know, my, once again, like, and then I sit here now as I tell the story and it's coming. Why didn't I hide it better? Oh, like, maybe I wanted to get caught, you know? My dad fucking throws, he's like, "Saxa, saxa!", you know, just like. Once again, it's like, this, like, think about my dad, it's like his friends are like going, you know, his friends' kids are like getting the highest SAT scores. They're getting accepted into Stanford and, and they're like, my son has hair covering his eyes. He, you know, and I think I was starting to get into like shitty eighties, like Warren and Winger and Cherry, you know, like that kind of, like. I listened to everything.

• 2:02:49Speaker 00

  And I, just shame. I, like, literally, like, not feeling it, but like, having another human, your father tell you, I'm so embarrassed of my son. I'm so embarrassed, like, like anger, tears, like, just breaking, like, why? Why, why did I come to this country? Why did, you know, just like, and I, I. Like, I just. It's, like, now I could feel more when I tell, but like before, I just like, like, I just pretended like it was happening to someone else, you know, I just disassociated, I'm like. Whatever, bro, like, but it wasn't whatever, it was like, my dad disappointed in me, my mom disappointed in me.

• 2:03:29Speaker 00

  And I'm like, fuck, man, it's not really working out for me, like, just rejection after rejection, and I just.

• 2:03:37Speaker 00

  I remember the shipping, like it was in the Larry Flynt building, Wilshire and Los Inga. And I was like, fuck, I live like, I could skate there, like, I'd rather, and I was scared to like, send, oh, so this is what happened. So I got busted. The lady, I don't know if she was a lesbian or something, she's like, oh, like, I need to meet Suzie Suzuki. It wasn't Suzuki, it was a name like that, it was like Tricia Toyota or something. And I go, Heidi, are you serious right now? It's like, like, that's, I wrote that story, that story's ridiculous, like, in my head, I'm like, it's so obvious a guy wrote that, you know? And she's like, hey, we might be Buttman magazine, but we print the truth.

• 2:04:20Speaker 00

  And I was like, what the fuck, you're telling me the Penthouse letters are, like, shut the fuck up. And she's like, she's like, took all my art, threw it at me, it's like, you will never be published in Buttman anymore, like, she just, you're done here. And I was like, I spent a long time on those paintings, like, I, all the folds of the butthole, and like, I, like, I really tried hard, like, you know, and it's like, rejection, reject, like, I, I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me, gallery, art, like, it was just, it was like, cool, I don't, all right. Didn't feel, I, I mean, I'm sure it didn't feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize it and just, all right. And then, and then do my mom's delusional thing, but, but I'm still the best, even

• 2:05:05Speaker 00

  though the world's telling me, like, you're, you're a loser. And I go, okay, who's the art director at Hustler? W T Nelson, okay, I'm gonna, so I call them, I go, hey, I, I live, you know, I can skate there, you know, take me like, an hour to get there, but I, I have these paintings and I don't wanna send them in the mail, I never sent paintings in the mail before, and I'd rather save on the shipping, and he's like, I don't know you dude and I don't really, but I had already sent the color copies and the the pages that they had printed in Buttman and he's like, but alright, I guess you could come and I'm like, yes, I'm gonna go to the Larry Flynt building, this is gonna be so cool, you know?

• 2:05:46Speaker 00

  And I, and I go there and he's just like, yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we'll use those in Asian Fever, we'll use these in, you know, like different, you know, there was Hustler had like twenty different other magazines. And he's like, yeah, like that story is awesome, we'll print that story. And I was like, okay, cool. So, I'm like, am I, am I a writer? You know, am I, part of me was like, I'm a writer, I'm a published writer.

• 2:06:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Technically, you're a professional writer at this point.

• 2:06:17Speaker 00

  And at the time, I was also writing for Vice, I was writing for Giant Robot, also not getting paid. Like, this was the first time I got paid, so it felt like, oh.

• 2:06:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Did Buttman pay you?

• 2:06:25Speaker 00

  No, they didn't. Because they, we had that fight and they never sent the, you know.

• 2:06:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  Apparently, they quote, only print the truth, but they also don't pay their bills, so.

• 2:06:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  The truth only goes so far for them.

• 2:06:41Speaker 00

  So, I, it was me, it was like,

• 2:06:45Speaker 00

  I can see a lot of my mom in that now of how

• 2:06:50Speaker 00

  the reality is, I'm not successful, I'm a pornographer, but in my head, I'm like, I'm published, I'm a real artist, like, and I'm a writer, I'm a scholar, you know, like, I, and then he, I remember, uh, WT Nelson paid me and then, it wasn't that much money and like, and now it's just like that awkward, like, yeah, we usually don't have the artists come to the, it's all like through mail and, I don't know, you, you want some porn?

• 2:07:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  This was before Facebook?

• 2:07:19Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 2:07:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Cause the reason I ask is, uh, and I don't want to take you off track because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out, when the equity popped, basically.

• 2:07:29Speaker 00

  I'll, I'll get to all of it and I'm gonna time jump, but like, it, it's just, uh,

• 2:07:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  I wanna stay, I wanna stay in the feeling.

• 2:07:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Please.

• 2:07:36Speaker 00

  I'm trying to, cause these are all stories I've told before, but like, I've never told them from like, an emotional perspective. It's always just been like, almost bragging, like, I go, like, I'm trying to, for the first time, like, sit, sit in it and, cause I wanna, uh, focus a little bit on the shame part, you know, and, And part of, you know, part of being an artist is just constant rejection. It's like asking a girl out like over and over again. It's like, you're fat, you're ugly, no thanks, you're not, you know, it's like, and, and, and for art, it's art is different, you know, like what you think is cool, I might think it's cheesy. And it's like, now I can see that, but before I was like, you're in the presence of greatness. And you're saying no to me like, I'm like, okay, okay. All right. I guess it's not good, you know?

• 2:08:21Speaker 00

  So it's what I present and what I feel inside.

• 2:08:26Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 2:09:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  I absolutely love the product and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods. So check out Mateina at Whole Foods stores nationwide. It's cold brewed with the absolute best ingredients. It has zero sugar and it tastes amazing. And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmateina.com.

• 2:09:27Speaker 00

  So they, I mean, part of it is they just started sending me boxes and porn was expensive. Now these spoiled kids today, it's, you know, you could see anything, right? It's just free internet. But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or, or a magazine, those things were like $20, like it was expensive. And now I'm getting these care packages from Hustler, just shit that I'm not even into, like bodybuilder chicks with, you know, like just, just a lot of shit. And I'm like, it looked crazy at my, at my apartment. Like it was just, I'd finally moved out of the house.

• 2:10:07Speaker 00

  I was dating this girl, this crazy actress, and I just, it was Florida, like every room in the house had some kind of, it was like kind of my identity. They were like, Dave the, you know, and. She was starting to get disgusted. She's like, who am I dating? You know, and I've always, like, at the core of all my addictions is codependence. It's, I don't know what's happening. The world is scary. I don't feel safe and I need to go along to get along. And I need to do, I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay. And at the cost of me, that's what I need. And so, oh, you like that kind of art? Then I'll, I'm a chameleon. I'll switch to that. Oh, you like, oh, you like Fugazi?

• 2:10:50Speaker 00

  Okay, I'll listen to Fugazi, you know, and there's like, it's not black and white. Some of it's true and some of it's like a mask. And I'm sitting there just, just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner. Like, I'm not getting paid. Like, there's no money coming in. It's, like graffiti doesn't pay, like the pornography, like getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money, you know? They're like, hey, you want, and I have a, you know, I have a sickness. I have a sex addiction. So it's like, hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want $1,000 in porn? Which is nothing to them. It's just, you know? So I'm having, I'm just having a hard time and I get to my 72 Plymouth Fury,

• 2:11:34Speaker 00

  who, like, every time I get in, I could kill myself or something, you know? And there's a note on the door and it says,

• 2:11:42Speaker 00

  "Doing a period piece movie in Los Angeles. Your car 1970 fits the time. Can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover, you know, pays something ridiculous, like a thousand bucks a day or something?" I'm like,

• 2:11:58Speaker 00

  "Fuck, like, hell, like, these small victories, you know?" Oh, fuck, yeah. I show up the next day. It's on the street. Everything in the street. They made it look like 1970s. There's all these other 1972, and they made it, they put the sirens on the top. They took the license plate off. And the guy that's like dressing my car, one of the, you know, the, the union guys looks in the back and he's like, "Yo, this guy has so much porn in the back of his car." And I was like, "Yes," you know, like, and I go, "What's this movie?" And I see Johnny Depp come out of the house and he's got a blonde hair in a ponytail. And it's Blow, that movie Blow with Pee Wee Herman, right?

• 2:12:39Speaker 00

  But he wasn't in that scene. And I'm like, holy fuck. I love Johnny Depp. I'm like, "Oh, fuck, that's Johnny Depp." And um, this guy's being really loud. He's like, this guy has a lot of porn, not just like, and I, and I'm like, oh yeah, I work for Hustler. You work for Hustler? So, I remember just, that was the first time I saw like a celebrity on that level in real life. And I'm like, oh, he's kind of short, but like, he was like signing autographs and talking to everyone. I'm like, this guy looks, he seems very friendly, you know, like he had that whatever charisma, riz, the kids say, and star quality. So then, it's uh, you know, craft, service, lunch. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've never been on a movie set before. And I'm just like, I'm getting paid

• 2:13:25Speaker 00

  to do nothing and just, and I was like, between all the, the background guys, I was the, the man, because I had so much porn, you know, so I just had, I grabbed a sampling of it. I had some of the, some of the ones that I had drawings in and I put some like book, my like, I, you know, I don't know, it's like, maybe Johnny Depp's gonna see my butthole paintings and be like, hey, paint me, you know, like, I don't know. That's my delusion, right? So, I'm like, is he gonna eat in his own trailer? Or is he gonna be down with the crew? And he was down with the crew. So it's like lunch, and it was just a scene like with, I think Ray Liotta, and like all this, and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, I want Johnny Depp to see, like, I wanna,

• 2:14:04Speaker 00

  like, I don't know, and I'm, I'm like, who the fuck, I have, I'm like 23, I've, you know, I'm like, I do graffiti, like, I got a car that doesn't work for, you know, it's like, but I, I was like, ah, it's, it's, it's gonna happen. So he's sitting down with the crew, he's like telling stories and

• 2:14:25Speaker 00

  I didn't have to do it. Another guy was like, hey Johnny, this guy has all this porn in this guy. He's like, oh, really? You know, like, I can't do a Johnny Depp impression. And I go, and I was like, my cue, I was like, hey Johnny, like, see, this is, this is my art and, and you know, I had some butt man in there, I had a hus- I, I grabbed a sampling of my, you know, maybe I had some color copies of my, my art and, and he, and he, and he flips through it, he's in his wig and he's like, like, it's, it's a lot of butts, you know, it's like, it's pretty singular, uh, vision, I go, yeah, I could do other stuff and, and you know, he just hands it back to me. I'm like, oh, fuck. And I was like, oh, thanks Johnny, you know, and I was like, no, that was cool. And then I'm like, trying to spin that in my head of like,

• 2:15:07Speaker 00

  Immediately goes to he fucking hates you like stupid still like why did you you know like why did you do that? And then um. I yeah, I don't know the movie like you know when you they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name. I didn't know it was gonna be blow like that movie's awesome. And I feel like defeated and they're like, hey, you know, we were gonna pay you for two days, but we finished the scene, so you're only gonna get paid for one day. And I'm like, I'm gonna get as much chicken as possible. So I start getting the Tupperware and you know, I'm like, I'm gonna eat for like a week off this craft service food and I'm I'm walking out and I see all the Star Waggons and I see on a door Paul Rubens.

• 2:15:44Speaker 00

  Malekka like a high make a heiny ho. I'm like, here we go like fucking. My childhood, I'm like, and he had gotten caught and jerking off in a movie theater or something. I didn't give it like. I always. Maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame, but like when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting or like all of that always made sense to me and it endeared me to it made me it made them look human like. I was like, that's weird. My hero, my childhood hero that did Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Pee Wee's Playhouse, getting caught jerking off and why did he do that? Why didn't he do it at home? Or but I even those things I didn't understand. I was like now I'm like.

• 2:16:24Speaker 00

  I love that guy like I like I have nothing but compassion for like and that's.

• 2:16:32Speaker 00

  Like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with. You know murderers and and at risk youth and chill like I I'll work with anybody. Because my old self is like fuck this dude, fuck this person, fuck you, you hurt me, revenge, revenge, very Korean, you know? And now I go.

• 2:16:56Speaker 00

  If you know, and I work with people in prisons, I go, if you're willing to be a better version of yourself, I I can, I'm not a scientist, I don't. But I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person. Or try at least if you're willing, only if you're willing. If you're not willing, then I don't want to waste my time and you know. You know, great. So.

• 2:17:17Speaker 00

  Oh fuck it, I'm gonna do it. So Johnny didn't want the porn here. I read a little, I don't remember exactly what I wrote and I was like, biggest fan, love you. I, I, I think I wrote like, I don't care what they say about you, like I'm still love you and I can draw other stuff, but here's stuff I've done for, and I left it on his thing and knocked and I, I was too embarrassed to like, and I ran away and I mean, it just, there was so many,

• 2:17:45Speaker 00

  there was so many moments, uh, I remember, you know, and then so like it's, it's gradual, right? Like, it's like, okay, and then this little thing happens and this, but, and, uh, you know, it was like, I don't know, a decade before the Facebook, and also I don't pay attention to that stuff. So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he's like, hey, you know, those shares are worth a quarter million now, or, but then at the time I was gambling and I was making that much gambling, so I was like, ah, whatever, I don't care. And he's like, yo, you know, they're worth a million now and I had quietly become a millionaire. Uh, by the time I was thirty, I had a huge art show with, uh, Steve Lazaridis, who's Banksy's art guy and I was like, I hit at the right time that

• 2:18:30Speaker 00

  shit, you know, like, oh, fuck you dad, look, I fucking made, you know, like the art that he hated me for, I was like, look, there it is, you know? Um, and there was always a lot of anger at that, it's like, you fucking live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks, motherfucker. Fuck you, who would, you know, like, you know, and, and, and it's like, I love my parents, it's a love hate relationship, it's complicated, or maybe it's not that complicated, but it's like, um, you know, hearing, I know how proud of, even though it's not very Asian for a parent from another country to say, I'm proud of you, like, uh, he, he tell, you know, he, he's like, we like kiss on the lips, he's like, and he rubs my face, like, I fucking love you dude.

• 2:19:14Speaker 00

  He doesn't cuss, but he's like, I love you, I'm proud of you and it's like, all that shit, I just said, it's like, you know, so I have a lot of compassion for, for my, my family.

• 2:19:29Speaker 00

  So like I remember.

• 2:19:34Speaker 00

  And then things like.

• 2:19:37Speaker 00

  I started working for Vice, you know, I had this relationship with Gavin McInnes and Shane Smith and they just.

• 2:19:44Speaker 00

  They're like, hey, you you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur, you hitchhike like. And this was as print is dying and things are, they were the first early adopters of tech and, you know, they're like, Vice is gonna move to online. I'm like, who? I'm always the guy that's like, who the fuck, you know, it's like, I'm like Korean Forrest Gump, I'm like just in the room with like the most important things in life happening. And I go, all right, cool. And they're like. What can you film for nothing? You know, because it was like. Spike Jones was there in the beginning, Johnny Knoxville, like. You know, it was like the beginning of of that, of Vice, you know, and it all fucked up because of greed and all that shit, but.

• 2:20:25Speaker 00

  I was like, every time I hitchhike, something crazy happens. They're like, okay, cool, film that. So then I started filming Thumbs Up. I think the first, I was saying with time, I think it was 20 years ago. And I do all that shit. And then it's like all the things like I was saying that. I was arrested for, I got shamed for, embarrassed for, now people are giving me money and jobs and they're like, yeah, all that fucked up shit, can you do it on camera, can you? You know, and I was like, oh, they like me. My mother was right, you know, and.

• 2:20:58Speaker 00

  So one day.

• 2:21:01Speaker 00

  My friend Dave Chang, who also is, you know, severe gambling issues. You know, I didn't want to meet that guy because that was like looking in a mirror. He was like, everyone's like, he's you, but of cooking. And I was like, I don't need to meet, like, I need to meet with people that. Lift me out of my shit, not. That's why I hate meeting other addicts because then it's like, you know. Like it, you never know how it like right now I'm sitting here telling if I'm getting if I'm being if I started this show telling you what I least want to share it's like now I'm addicted to Pokemon right like you go oh you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years you haven't you know and then you pat yourself on the back and then the worst thing happens my kid gets into Pokemon I go into shop I had no idea that packs cost $20

• 2:21:47Speaker 00

  I open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen I get the hit card it's like you got the the sunbury on the $1,000 and I'm like wait wait wait hold on wait what and I go oh this is gambling and in six months I I've gone from like maybe I'll spend 100 bucks which which at the time I was like for fucking cards and now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it and it's and now and and I always I always turn my addictions which I'm always open about into my job but it's for work the buttholes that was for work the you know everything's for work is like oh now I'm drawing on the I got one for you I'll give it to you later I drew on Mike Tyson for you because I know you like

• 2:22:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  I should give context that Dave sent me a text yesterday he said what's your favorite Pokemon and I don't know because I don't all Pokemon then he goes what's your favorite athlete and I said Mike Tyson

• 2:22:40Speaker 00

  that's a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you

• 2:22:45Speaker 00

  so

• 2:22:48Speaker 00

  so I mean it's it's like you're welcome you know the addictions the things they say about addiction is it's it's baffling cunning seductive and so you I I'm like oh I'm not the gambling comes up in other ways you know it's like trading cards you know like little things and it's like I don't I'm not as a middle-aged man and I'm shaming myself it it doesn't feel good

• 2:23:15Speaker 00

  to be

• 2:23:18Speaker 00

  You know, like, like, I'm friends with guys that are like, like Money Mark, who's in the Beastie Boys, like, he's sixty-five, and my friend Bill Poon, who I used to do a podcast, he's sixty-two, so, like, I'm, I'm a middle-aged man, hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of the night, talking about Predator Badlands, talking about, like, childish Arrested Development type of shit. I go, and, and the thing is, like, I've been to cult, countries and cultures where they're, like, even being a Mormon, and, like, when you turn eighteen, there, there is a, a ritual that happens that says, "Now you're a man," and we don't have that in our culture, so, that's why you have grown men wearing Pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy,

• 2:24:01Speaker 00

  it's all the same, fantasy football, it's all fantasy, it's all immature shit, and you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards and, and it's like, okay, if it makes you happy, cool, I guess, but there's always, there's always a part of me that's, like, dissatisfy, like, like, I, I do, like, my daily affirmations of, like, I, I don't, I don't need to do anything today for Andrew to like me, like, I'm enough, like, I just, I have to sit in that, and I was like, "No, I gotta," and, and then I, I got it from you, you know, it's like, we talked once on the phone before I showed up today, and you've sent me a mountain of this yerba mate, this delicious Mateina,

• 2:24:45Speaker 00

  and I'm like, that's, I fucking, like, this is, like, crack to me now, and I'm like, "Oh, this guy I don't know is just sending, hey, can I get some more of that?" And I told you I was starting to get sick, and you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna send you some peptides," and da-da-da-da, and I go, "What a sweetie, and cute, and, like, awesome and very handsome, and, like, the, your shirts, the way they fit every time," I'm like, "Dude, and you got some guns and, like, clothes look good, I'm, I'm jealous of your posture," um, and I just go, "Oh, this guy's a caretaker," like, I haven't, I don't even fucking know the guy, and he's sending me, like, I don't know if peptides are drugs, but he's like, "I'll, I'll help you, Dave, I'll send you these experimental medicines and this," and I go, "Thank you, but also, you don't need to do any of that," yeah, like, I just wanted to meet you, and...

• 2:25:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  But to be clear, I, I know I don't have to, it's in my nature to wanna care for people that I, I, I feel loved towards.

• 2:25:37Speaker 00

  I, I know, but, like...

• 2:25:40Speaker 00

  We just met and I'm like, those things take time. And then you're like, no, I got people to do that or whatever. And I go, the cost, I'll speak for myself. The cost of that at some point is you, right? When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know? And so, and it feels like against how I was raised. I go, oh, fuck, this feels selfish for me to, you know? Like, I never took, you know, at, at, at the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band. My podcast was DVD SA was, you know, which I did with Asa Akira, Porn Star and Bobby Lee and Steve Lee. It, it, it was becoming like the biggest, you know? It was, there was no one doing podcasts back then. It was Joe, Adam Carolla. Trying to remember. It wasn't that, it wasn't what it is now, you know?

• 2:26:25Speaker 00

  And so it was, it was insane. Like, cause I grew up on Howard Stern and I'm like, just hearing him fight, like you couldn't say a certain thing. And, and then he'd get punished by the FCC. And then someone was like, hey, Dave, you know what a podcast? I was like, this sounds weird. What's a podcast? And they go, and talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules. And I, and I was like, this is a new canvas. It's like, you could, you can say anything? You can fucking say, like, you could fucking cuss and tell like, the worst story, like, and I, I just, I couldn't believe that it existed.

• 2:27:07Speaker 00

  I couldn't believe, and so, you know, and I didn't like come in with a mission statement. And I know intentions huge been part of it was I was just running and running. But now in hindsight, I go, what was that? And I was, oh, shame chasing. I was like, how can I be as, how can I record the downfall of me? Like, like, like, how, how much can I go over the edge? How much can I push up against this boundary? And see, cause let me see if you care, right? And first of all, I was like, no one's listening. Turns out it was a lot of people listening, but I didn't know that at the, you know? We started, I was like, let's just, let's just go. Let's record our downfall.

• 2:27:47Speaker 00

  Let's record our bottom, like as an addict, like being, being how, like I'm chasing shame. Like I'm, like in a way, it's like this, like someone who's like a flasher. They're like, what kind of person gets off on like running down the street? I was like, that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to. I'm not a mentally well person that I'm dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate. So I'm going to workaholism, I'm going and I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying like I don't. And it's just so painful and I I feel misunderstood and I go, let's just fucking say the worst possible things every episode.

• 2:28:29Speaker 00

  And and make fun of it like a joke and just like, I mean, that. Once again, if I look back and I go, what's the worst things that ever happened to me? Jail, like getting canceled multiple times. It's like all of it led to the best moments of my life. So I don't sit here and judge, oh, this was good, this was bad, because good moments lead to bad. It's just life, right? It's fluid and it's there's a spectrum of good and bad. So I remember just there was so many.

• 2:29:02Speaker 00

  I I'm like doing this podcast and in my mind, I was like. Like and and like having Howard Stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private. Dude, you're out of control was the greatest compliment, you know, Howard Stern, the the despite, you know, the king of all media telling me. And I asked him on the show if he can adopt me and I'm like, I'm the prince of all media. I fucking do comics and I do fine art. I do graffiti. I can do anything, you know? And to have that validation and and, you know, we don't talk regularly, but, you know, I started sending him watercolor stuff. And then he got into water and he's fucking really good, like he like everything. He went into it.

• 2:29:40Speaker 00

  And so that was and then at one point I was talking to his producers about being on on Sirius like right after him. And I was like, there's like Jane Cho was right. I am the greatest, like I can do anything. And then, you know, people started listening and they're like, these people are saying the worst shit ever. And I was like, I know, but I'm just I like, don't they know I'm a comedian like you never told anyone like. And that's not funny, but whatever. I mean.

• 2:30:11Speaker 00

  I shouldn't have said like a lot of the things I said. And I never gave. I don't like, as an artist, I don't like, like, here's my black penis I painted on the wall. Like, I don't. I paint and I do stuff, but the mistake that I made was words like in the spectrum of entertainment and art. Everyone watches movies and video, like that's up here. So that's has the most eyeballs on it. Then you go all the way down to, at the time, podcasts. Art gallery, nobody give, you do whatever you want. No one cares. And so that's how was I was approaching it. And people go, when you paint the most fucking vile, obscene, disgusting shit. It's still a painting, right?

• 2:30:57Speaker 00

  But when you say stuff, people take it literally. Like you're coming at a microphone. Like, um, like it's an

• 2:31:07Speaker 00

  shit, I scared myself.

• 2:31:10Speaker 00

  That was so good. I love that. Oh, my God. That was felt good. Uh, that was a good scream. That was like your punk rock. Someone sampled that, turned that into a punk rock song. Um, but I, I treated it like it was just another, you know, I was, it was Sean Parker, I'm not blaming, it was these people in my life that I witnessed as successful, they didn't take reality seriously. Right? I'm like, I don't care. I'm gonna say. I'm gonna push it as far as I can because I don't care. Because I don't respect reality. I've never have. Like, uh, you saw, you fucking believe in, yes. Yes, I believe, look into my eyes. I believe in Santa Claus. 100%. There's no part of me that doubts that. That's who you're talking to. A mentally ill person working on himself.

• 2:31:56Speaker 00

  Trying to express himself as, you know, like

• 2:32:00Speaker 00

  a perfectly imperfect, unrepeachable miracle of the universe. That's how I, I'm trying my best. That's it. That's it, you know? So I meet, uh, David Chang, I become friends with him. He's like, let's go to dinner. I'm gonna bring my friend and his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain. Immediately. Like, I've met my, my brother. Like, I mean, he's older than me, but it was just. You know, ex heroin addict. Got through it through workaholism.

• 2:32:29Speaker 00

  And I could see that he was tired. You know, and he had a, he had a thing that he kept saying, he's like. What's your life? You just fucking watch TV and watch The Simpsons? And, you know, he had this story like, I have to live an interesting life. And he's like, oh, I'm doing, you know, so I, I, I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic. Like, it wasn't like, oh, I wanna, he, he was in a way grooming either Chang or me or Roy Choi. I don't know, he liked Asians, but he was grooming us to take over, basically. And, um, and that, that, that once again fed my ego of like, oh, he's, he can see what my mom, he thinks I'm special.

• 2:33:14Speaker 00

  Like, the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over. Like, oh, my God, this is great, you know? So he's like, my, you know, it's like, you're doing, you know, his, his show changes, there's no reservations. It's, it kept changing and so, uh, you know, every time I ate with him, it was insane. I mean, I don't know if he had eating disorders or what, but it's Anthony Bourdain. So you go in a restaurant and they bring out every fucking food, right? Like, everything. And I go, I'm watching him, takes a sip of water. Thank you, can you wrap this up? I'm like, you're not gonna eat, you know, because everywhere he went, every chef wanted to.

• 2:33:57Speaker 00

  And he's like, Dave, if I ate all this shit, like, I'd be like 300 pounds, you know? So I was like, can I, can I take it home? He's like, yeah, you could have it. And then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA, he'd stay at Chateau Marmont. And I'd be like, is your life just eating at restaurants? And he's like, yeah. I go, hey, from now on, just come to my house. My mom's like, he's like, I would fucking love that. You know, he closes, he's like, so whenever he'd come to LA, he would go to my mom's house. My mom would, my mom loved him, like Tony and my mom were, she, he, I don't know what his relationship with his mom was like, but he loved my mom and he'd always, he knew culture. So he'd always bring the Asian pears, you know, he knew like, oh, I'm going to a Korean's house.

• 2:34:40Speaker 00

  And then after a while, like, when I meet people that I love and I respect, I, I value the friendship, so I don't go. And that doesn't mean I don't value you. I was like, I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast. But I was like, fuck it. Like, let's just jump into it.

• 2:34:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  We'll do it in reverse.

• 2:34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll do it in reverse. And same thing, like, I never asked to be on a show. I never, but after a while, he just was like, Dave, I'm doing LA. And I go, but haven't you done LA? He goes, yeah, but this specifically Koreatown. And I go, okay, I mean, I grew up in Korea. I was born and raised in Koreatown. But, um, so then his producer, his production company, Zero Point Zero. I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I'm everything. I'm the director, I'm the production. It's just like Thumbs Up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy and like a chase van. That's it. It's four people. But, you know, I was like, oh, this is like what a real TV show is like. Yeah. Guys setting up shots and it was like a lot of people and I go, oh, fuck, this seems cool. Like you don't have to.

• 2:35:42Speaker 00

  So he go, so his producer calls me and goes, okay, we're gonna set this show up for like two months from now. And, um, it's Koreatown centric, like, and I go, okay, but do you want to do fake? Like, I'm, I'm down. Like, what, what do you guys need? Like, do you, like, I know every, all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but I grew, Koreans don't eat Korean, like, from my era, we didn't have any money. So when we go out, we eat at Sizzler, we eat at Denny's, we don't eat, we get Korean food at home, you know, like. So if he's trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Koreatown, it's Sizzler.

• 2:36:22Speaker 00

  And like everyone, every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler. And so she's like, so you're telling me we're gonna bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know, spend all this money to take him to Sizzler. I go, hey, I just told you, like, I'll fake it. Like, I'll, I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like, we could, but I didn't eat that shit growing up. He goes, no, Tony loves authenticity. I'm like, we're going to fucking Sizzler then. So we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse and he's, I mean, it's like.

• 2:36:53Speaker 00

  I mean, pitfall after pitfall, like it's, I remember at the time, Channing Tatum came to my, like, he's like, uh, his agent, this guy Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum's agent's Korean, and he calls me and he goes, "My client Channing Tatum loves you." And like, it's like, after all these things and getting cancelled over and over again in comics, and whatever field I went in, there was always, "You're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card. You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You're not supposed to, there's rules that you're not following." And I'm like, it was this my, my whole life. So, I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that, and he showed up with, with, uh, his agent, and he's like, he had just done,

• 2:37:35Speaker 00

  he was a pretty boy, he's one of the hands, most handsome guys, but he's so talented. And I'm like, "I don't fucking wanna meet Channing. I don't care about Channing Tatum." And then he came to the warehouse, and he's like, "Don't think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing, step up from the streets guy, like, I'm about to do G.I. Joe, but like, I'm like..." And I had, I'd put out zines and like, self-published books, and I write the way I talk right now. And he'd read that. And I was like, "Channing Tatum read..." You know, he goes, "You're a great writer." And I'm like, "There it is again." I'm like, "I write porn." He's like, "No, no, no. You have a way of talking and writing that. I need to be a part of that." Like, whatever, I go, "But I've never written a script." He goes, "Whatever you write, I'm gonna produce it."

• 2:38:17Speaker 00

  And I go, "Holy shit, dude. This is amazing." And then like, I don't know, I'm time jumping, but at some, at some point, I got a little cocky, and he put out, uh, Twenty One Jump Street, which Johnny Depp, you know, and I said, uh, "There's, uh, Ice Cube's talking to Korean Jesus during that movie. Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?" He's like, "Oh yeah, we made that for the..." I go, "If you guys wanna work with me, I need that Korean Jesus." So they sent me the Korean Jesus, and I, I put it in my warehouse, and I prayed, I prayed to it every night. I prayed to Korean Jesus and...

• 2:38:51Speaker 00

  What else? I mean, uh, because of all the canceling, it's like if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me. So it's like, once again, being rewarded rewarded for the bad behavior. So there's this editor at DC Comics. Oh, cool. I can't draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman. And he, this guy Axel Alonso, who worked at Vertigo, which was like the more adult, like dude Sandman and stuff like that. He contacts me and he's like, I've been reading your fucking fucked up articles in Vice. He's like, you're a writer. I go, that's the thing that I have the most respect for is writing. Like I have a book in me. I've never, I haven't sat down, but it's like, it's in here. I'm too scared to, to, to get it out, but he's like,

• 2:39:35Speaker 00

  he's like, yeah, your art's okay. Okay. And he goes, I want you to write a book about, you know, I, it was like Koreatown gangsters or, and I, I, it was shit that I didn't know about. I was like, fuck it. I'll, I'll make it up. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it like this. And he's like, no, you're going to write it. And someone else is going to draw it. I was like, oh, okay. But he was like, and then I, I started writing it. And, and I, I start writing him emails like it's, it's, it's done. And, you know, email bounced back. He quit and like moved to Marvel. And I'm like, ah, oh, fuck, it was almost about to happen again, you know? And then, um, and then, uh, my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger.

• 2:40:17Speaker 00

  And I'm, so I'm, I'm in my full workaholism. I'm, I, I, I've, I'm aware that I'm an addict. I'm like, I'm in my full addiction. I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band, Mongchi, doing the news for Vice, doing art shows like legally around the world and doing illegal, like just, and people are like, are you on coke? I'm like, I don't have chemical, I don't do, I get high off. Like I, and each thing is like, I have to do the, I, I'm not enough. That's what I believe about, that's what I did believe about myself and still sometimes today is. I was, everything the world had shown me is that, besides from my mother, is that you're not.

• 2:41:02Speaker 00

  And that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me. So it was like, you're telling me I'm the best, but then you threw me out like trash. So a lot of mixed messages and, and, and, and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was, you're not enough. You're, women don't date Asians. Your art looks like shit. It's, you're not following the graffiti rules. Your art's a little too aggressive to be refined for, it's just, everything is just. So everything had to be, I need to be, it's not, it's not like I can kind of be in this field. Like I have to have the best podcast. And in my mind, that was Howard Stern.

• 2:41:44Speaker 00

  So I was like, however extreme he is, I have to go, like Howard's the ringleader, but I need to be the guy that's the, you know, and I, I don't care what happens to me because I've had third degrees burns all over my foot. Like my brothers read my diary. I've been stabbed in my, like, I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself. I've hurt myself. So, so then, uh, I'm in Russia or the North Pole interviewing. It's my first time doing the serious news. And I remember at the time Shane and Eddie and everyone at Vice, we sat down and they're like, Dave, your podcast is out of control. It's like, and they, and like, they all know me, they're like, you can't, you can't say those things. I go, I can say whatever the fuck I want.

• 2:42:28Speaker 00

  I'm like, this is Vice, baby, like we did, they're like, Dave. And, and it was like, second season of Vice News on HBO. The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea, getting a lot of attention. We start getting Emmy nominations and the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news. I'm like, for, you know, my ego's like, oh, the first time doing the news, fucking nailed it. And I'm like, I'm God, dude. I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on this show. And I could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum. And I could do the most craziest, like, you can't fucking put me in a box. And if you try to, I'm like, I am better than you. I'm better than you as a human being. I'm better than you as an art. And it was like,

• 2:43:13Speaker 00

  My friends just like, because it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict. You're like, bro, you're unhinged, you're out of control. But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior. Just and like the people would come up to, come with me. I'd bring them to, because I controlled my addiction. Like I would, I knew that I had a problem and I know the nature of addiction is you can't stop. So I did something that I've never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close friends, being like, I'm an addict, I cannot be trusted, I'm a liar, I'm a thief. And so when I'm in my gambling, gambling state, I don't hold my money. So as soon as I'm win the number I told you I'm win, I need you to punch me in the face.

• 2:43:57Speaker 00

  I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep going. So I can never touch my own money. If I'm, if you see me falling in love with a girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face. And like I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me. It's like, like if I was an alcoholic, it would be, I'm at a bar and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar. So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful. Like I never, because I had someone and they would only get paid if I, they got me to stop. Right? But then I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know?

• 2:44:41Speaker 00

  So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction. Like I got every, I don't sleep. There's days and then I had a heart attack when I was thirty, an angina attack. I collapsed, I went blind, I collapsed. And of course, like a lot of stories, as soon as I, I didn't go to the hospital. As soon as I woke up, I was like, what the fuck was that? Like I woke up thirty hours later, another day, and I just went back to gambling. But it was like. You know, I I could go into euphoric recall and just start telling like, but I I don't wanna like glamour cuz it's like, I figured out how to how to be in the world. If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs,

• 2:45:24Speaker 00

  then I will be validated and and congratulated and held up high in this culture, even though if I'm dying inside. I need to, I I've spent so much time in shame. I need to go, I wanna see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know? But then that's when I got there, I go, what do you do when you get to the, you know, heavy is the crown? It's lonely at the, like, I got to the top and I was like, kinda boring, let's, the kid in the village with the match, let's burn it down. We got here, it's like, and that was my childhood, literally. I would spend a lot of time building giant Legos with all the loot, like, we had like all mismatched Legos that was like, you know, hand me downs, and I would build a giant starship and my brother would come in, cool,

• 2:46:07Speaker 00

  and just smash it. I was like, I worked so long on that, but that was me doing. My brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career, let me just do it myself. Let me self sabotage myself, self sabotage. It was like mini suicides, you know? And so it's all, I'm like, here, here I am, it's all, it's, I'm finally gonna be, you know, validated as a human being, you know? And then I get, you know, I get Vice telling me, hey, you can't do your podcast and the news. And I go, then go fuck yourself, you know, and then we win the Emmy, but I'm not part of that anymore. And then, and then, uh, I can't keep track cuz I keep, they're like, did you know this artist got caught on saying?

• 2:46:51Speaker 00

  I go, it's on my podcast. It was my podcast. You don't fucking, it's not like I I did it on purpose.

• 2:46:59Speaker 00

  You know, anyways, it just kept happening and I, I'm at the sickest I've been mentally and I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world is also, has its own issues and I, and I, I just, I like, I I hit my bottom. I just went so off the deep end and my friends were all like, you're gonna die. Like, it's not like a normal OD with drugs, but you, you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight.

• 2:47:32Speaker 00

  Like masturbating nonstop to pornography.

• 2:47:36Speaker 00

  Just like video games. Like I couldn't stop playing Angry Birds, which like everything's like, so I can make a joke out of it. And they're like, that's your safety thing is to like, make a joke out of it. And so I walk in to, you know, a meeting and, and, and Channing Tatum's dude is like, Channing ain't fucking working with you. And it was, it wasn't him. It was like, hey, I've spent all, it was the agency. It was like, we've spent all this time building up a heartthrob, teen idol thing. He's not gonna be fucking seen with a scumbag like you. I go, oh shit, it's happening again. Shame. I walk into zero point zero. Bourdain's like, when I'm done, it's you. You're gonna, here's a book deal with my publishing company.

• 2:48:20Speaker 00

  It, your show's gonna be on CNN. It's gonna be exactly like mine, but with art. Like you're gonna travel around the art and it's like authentic to you because you already do that.

• 2:48:33Speaker 00

  I'm just like, holy shit, dude. This is, it paid off. All the bad beha-, like, I met my kindred spirit and, and I knew he wasn't happy. That's one of my, I can't watch, like, it's been years since, since all that happened and I still, I can't, I can't.

• 2:48:54Speaker 00

  Like I felt, I felt like,

• 2:48:58Speaker 00

  I met someone who finally understood me.

• 2:49:04Speaker 00

  So I know it wasn't him, but, you know, I don't remember the guy's name. I remember them and they could have told me over the phone. They're like, Dave, it was like getting caught at the, uh, principal's office. It's like, and I'm, and I'm pumped. I'm like, my mom was right. Jane Doe was right, like. The most interesting man on the planet, like my friend Tony is like handing, you know, handing me the baton like and I'm gonna do like I'm gonna go for it like I wasn't married, I didn't have kids. I'm like, I'm gonna fucking really, really, like I took it so seriously. Went to Nat Geo, went like took all the meetings and uh, you know, I remember sitting at a table

• 2:49:44Speaker 00

  just like this and the whole zero point zero production team is like, we love Tony, like he goes, but we are not working with you. And I go, you couldn't fucking send an email? Like, like, what are you shaming? And, and all of this is fuel for me. Like, they don't know this. I'm like, the more you fucking do this to me, the more I, you're giving me my drug, which I'm chasing, which is anger and shame. It's a fucking powerful drug, right? And I go, oh, okay, just another on the list that I gotta prove wrong. Like, I will make you regret the same way Chip regrets fucking talking, like, I will make you feel, you come at me, you better fucking kill me, because I'm going to fucking destroy you now. Like, I am gonna make the most awesome

• 2:50:29Speaker 00

  show ever. And, you know, Tony called me in apology. He's like, dude, I don't, like, they're their own company. Like, we work together, but they, you know, they, the optics aren't good. And I go, all right, you know? And I was like, missed it by that much, like.

• 2:50:47Speaker 00

  So it, and, and, and I had grown accustomed to it. Like, this was, it's not a new, it's, if I, I could just keep telling another, like, oh, and then Marvel rejected me, then DC, then.

• 2:51:02Speaker 00

  The episode I did with Tony, I take him to Sizzler. I show him how I fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco. It was true to me, right? You know, I hammed it up a little bit for the camera. I rode my, wore my like shiny red Sizzler suit, but that was me. That was how my family, and it resonated. It was the most watched episode. Like, I introduced him to Estevan Oriol and Mr. Cartoon. He loved all the lowrider cars. It was a fucking LA episode. And it was like my friends, and it was like. It was awesome. I felt so good and I just started getting, like Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson. Like, and the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is, but it has this and this. I'll do it, guys, I'll do it.

• 2:51:43Speaker 00

  And so, they're, you know, they're like, it's the most watched episode of that. And then we won an Emmy for that season. And I'm just like, and then that happens. And I'm like, holy shit. And then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on, and that episode's just missing. I mean, it's back now, but they took it off. And I was like,

• 2:52:02Speaker 00

  just keep striking, you know, and I'm like, what did I do? You know, like me playing Vic, like, what did I do? Did I do that? Like, I'm Urkel, I'm like, like, you're a fucking idiot, dude. You do dumb shit that you shouldn't do. You should shut the fuck up and just, and, um,

• 2:52:20Speaker 00

  when I meet, uh, the most powerful intellectually, like, just these powerhouse humans.

• 2:52:28Speaker 00

  Once again, it doesn't always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is with men, right? I mean, women, I don't know that experience because I'm not a woman, but for a man to take your humanity like that, then I see, because it's PTSD, it's right, post-traumatic stress disorder. But then, every now and then, like, I don't know what the exact stats are, you get PT, I'm making this up, PTGD, post-traumatic growth disorder. It's like, that should have turned me into a drug addict, homeless person, but instead I took all that pain. And I was like, K-Rage, I'll show you. I'll fucking show you. You should have never done that to me.

• 2:53:11Speaker 00

  You should have never,

• 2:53:17Speaker 00

  you should have never minimized me

• 2:53:20Speaker 00

  and put me down and disregarded me. And now, I have to teach you a lesson. Now I have to show you who you're fucking with.

• 2:53:32Speaker 00

  And it's such a horrible.

• 2:53:47Speaker 00

  It's such a fucking, it's such a painful way to live life. And I, I, I can't live with that pain, so I have to just keep doing more. It's never, I have to just keep showing you that I'm enough.

• 2:54:13Speaker 00

  So then, I, I'm just, I, I, I'm living in like a very, I know I'm telling a very name-droppy, like, douchey L.A. story, but, you know, I have Anthony Bourdain, who's, I consider a friend and my hero and my idol. Like, I was in a gang called Koreans God Bad. That was two people, me and my friend Harry Kim. But we wrote it everywhere, KGB everywhere. And then I remember the episode came out and he wrote, "KGB forever," or something like that. Koreans God, I'm like, fucking, my gang is Harry Kim and Anthony Bourdain. Like, I was just, I was like, it just, it made me so happy that it's like,

• 2:54:55Speaker 00

  Tony Bourdain is repping my set, you know, like, like I'm a fucking gang, you know, it was like, it was two fucking dumbasses just writing, drawing dumb buck-toothed whales and, I mean, I miss that guy so much.

• 2:55:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  The people that were close to him, like you and Joe, it's the same response, always.

• 2:55:15Speaker 00

  So then I, I'm, you know, I'm like, lost, I'm, I'm, I'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom. And I get, uh, I get a call from David Arquette, like, the actor, you know? And I, I love all the Arquets, you know, but, uh... David, you know, this is LA shit, right? He just reaches out and he's like, hey, I'm watching TV right now with my, I think fiance at the time. And we just saw your Anthony Bourne. And he's like, that's the most fucking LA shit. He's like, I wrote, I was in a, a crew called KGB, Kids Gone Bad. And I was like, no, Kareem's Gone Bad, you know?

• 2:55:56Speaker 00

  Um, and he goes, it's crazy, like, I'm, I used to do graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB and I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family. And he goes, and I'm turning, I forgot. He was like, I'm turning forty-five or fifty, I forgot how old he was. But it was like a big one, like forty. And I'm having it at like, you know, Sizzler's almost out of business. I think there's like three left in LA. And he's like, and it's at the Sizzler that I grew up and I would love for you to be here. And, uh, and all, all that stuff always, all like weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous. Cause I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna be fake or, you know? And I'm a sensitive person, like, if I'm meeting new people and they don't like me, I'm like, oh, I'm a piece of, you know, I, I, I'm sensitive. I'm a sensitive artist.

• 2:56:42Speaker 00

  Um, so I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter. I was like, hey, can you come with me? And, and we get to Sizzler and it's packed and it's, there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast and. He's like, Dave, Dave, I want, I want you to meet some friends here. Come sit at this table. And I sit down and it's Sacha Baron Cohen, like my fucking hero and Pee Wee Herman. And I'm like, holy fuck dude. And, you know, both of them are just huge art fans. So like, they don't know my art, but you know, David, our kid talking, he's like, this guy's an awesome artist, duh. And they're like, oh, cool, we wanna check it out and. Um, so, you know, Sacha Baron Cohen like collects a lot of Banksy and this and he's like, fuck dude, I gotta come to your studio. I gotta, you know, so then I'm like, oh, cool.

• 2:57:26Speaker 00

  Like, once again, like this, oh, people like me. And if people like me, then maybe I like myself, you know, like. And it's, it's nice, it's nice to be liked. It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to, right? So especially Pee Wee Herman's my art god. Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope. But for me, that's what I grew up on. That fucking char, the full commitment to that character, the voice, the king of cartoon, Penny, the stop motion animation.

• 2:58:01Speaker 00

  I just, it spoke to me, you know? All the Gary Panter art.

• 2:58:08Speaker 00

  So, um, I go, fuck, I don't know when I'm gonna meet this guy again. I go, hey, uh, I don't know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you did a movie called Blow? And he's like, oh yeah, Blow, you know? I go, hey, uh, did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step? And he's like, and like I'm trying to read his eyes, like, no, I don't remember that. And I was like, ah, I guess I'm, you know? Uh, but I did get his number that night. And then, um, you know, as I get, I hit, like, like I wouldn't be here today without my friends just all who love me came and they're like, Dave, you're not, like, it, it went too far this way.

• 2:58:49Speaker 00

  You know, you used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy and just, you just, you need a lot of help. So I, like everything else, I just dedicate, I stopped, I, obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men's groups, 12 step meetings, just I, whatever, if someone said it was gonna help you, I'm like, you're just breaking, like, generations of, ah, all fucking Asians hit their kids, all, you know, everyone got sent away, ever, you know, just like, I, I know, but I, I wanted to stop. It's either I fucking kill myself or I need, I need it to stop.

• 2:59:29Speaker 00

  And enough people caring about me, made me care about myself enough. And I, and I did, I'm like, I gotta, the podcast, the band, like, the people, and they go, they'll be fine. Everyone's gonna figure it out.

• 2:59:44Speaker 00

  And I, and I got help and, um,

• 2:59:48Speaker 00

  you know, as soon as I was out of the first rehab, like, 45 days, I was like, I'm gonna do a podcast about this. And they're like, Matt out there, he's just like, hey, uh, why don't you live this life before you start telling? And he's like, but I learned so many, you go, yeah, but why don't you implement it in your life? And so, I'm 49 now.

• 3:00:06Speaker 00

  I rarely do podcasts. I still do something creative every single day. I like to do it with other people. I've, I've, you know, I'd like to thank the sponsor today for this, God. You know, I know people are like, "Oh, you're, all you're religious." I go, "I don't, you know, I don't believe in God, but I still pray to him." And like, God, whatever you want to call it, like, whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn't care if I believe in him. He's still there, right? It's like such an ego thing of like, "I don't, who cares what you..." The thing, it's like saying you don't believe in the ocean. The ocean is still there, so I want to thank that guy.

• 3:00:50Speaker 00

  And, um, and so as I live this life and then I start to be like, what is my purpose? Why am I here? What is, you know, before your art was about like disgustingness and offending people. And it was just a fuck you, just showing people, "Hey, Asian people aren't all quiet." Like, "You're a rebel, like, you're supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor."

• 3:01:12Speaker 00

  Um, and then just like, I always tell people, they go, "Oh, how do I make it? I want to be..." I go, "I'm an expert in disappointing my parents." You must disappoint your parents. Like, my dad is so disappointed in me over and over again, until he's not. But I'm like, what would have happened if I didn't disappoint him? I would have got a pretty high SAT. I would have, you know, probably been on my second marriage, lawyer, golf, like, and he'd be like, "Ah, I don't know. I don't know." But I, I know that he's proud of me now, and it was like a long, hard path to get there. And so, um, I go, I, and part of me, you know, if you can't tell by now, goes like this.

• 3:01:56Speaker 00

  The pendulum swings very hard, so I said to myself, "I'm going to..."

• 3:02:02Speaker 00

  Like, everything up until now has been about, "Look at me, let me show you." And it's like, and I go, "I gotta take some space for me now." And, you know, I work with all these youth groups and stuff. And people go, "Hey, you know, you did a lot of media. And you did a lot of shit where you put yourself out there, showing the worst part of yourself. And like, trying to prove to people that you're not a good person." It's like, you know, it would, it would like, touch people and help people to see like, your journey and your path. And I go, "Fuck that, I'm not gonna put myself through that." Like, "I'm taking space." And they're like, "Yeah, but like, at some point, are you gonna share your story?" And I go, "No, that's too literal. I hate words. Words can be confused, words can be misconstrued. I'm not doing that.

• 3:02:46Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm just doing this, and this is enough." Like, your ego goes, "Oh, I'm working with 12 kids today. But if it was filmed, it could reach millions of people." And it's like, "No, you're working with 12 kids today, and that's it. And that's enough, right?" But then at some point, after years, this is years, a decade of recovery,

• 3:03:07Speaker 00

  I thought, "Well, part of the reason why I hate working with not, and like Netflix, Hulu, HBO, it doesn't matter, like, they're all corporations. They could be cool or whatever." But, and even podcasts, which was, that's the conversation we had. I'm like, "It all gets edited." It's like, as soon as anything gets a little... And so I go, "I'll just make my own show, cuz I have money to do that, and it's not gonna cost that much. And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won't." So I started making my version of Peewee's Playhouse, which was the Chil Show. And it came out on FX, on Hulu, and I got to learn what, taking notes and having, you know, corporate feedback and whatever.

• 3:03:52Speaker 00

  I'm grateful that it happened, but they killed a lot of the episodes.

• 3:03:58Speaker 00

  And everyone's like, "What's your, who's your dream guest?" And I was like, "It doesn't matter. I'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to like, the garbage man. I'll talk, you know, but they're like, "It's for TV, so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people." And I was like, "I want Peewee Herman, you know?" And I had his number still from Sizzler. So I called him, and I, you know, and Peewee Herman's like... I don't know if, he's just one of those people that, once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year, or a Christmas card. And I was like, it just, every time I got it, I would send it to all my friends. I'm like, it just made me feel so good. Um, so, yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about, like, what he wanted

• 3:04:40Speaker 00

  for my art to disrupt the world. I have the nice message from Howard Stern, and I have the, the voice. So I, I called Pee Wee, and he's like, Dave, I got some stuff, some health stuff going on. And, and, uh, and he's like, I feel honored. Thank you. Like, you know, I, I love your art. You know, now he got to learn a little bit about me. And he's like, and I would love to be on your show, but I just, I don't know, I don't want to be on camera anymore. And, and he's like, you could send the episodes and I'll, I, I'll give you some, like, if you're open to it. I was like, of course, I, you know. And, uh, and it was just, it just, like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that I was talking to him and he, like, was talking back to me as a equal.

• 3:05:22Speaker 00

  And then, uh, I mean, but I got it right away. He's, he's not gonna do it, you know? And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, "You paint butts really good."

• 3:05:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man.

• 3:05:35Speaker 00

  He got it. He got it. And I,

• 3:05:41Speaker 00

  you know, he's like,

• 3:05:44Speaker 00

  "I'm, I'm old. I don't want to talk on the microphone."

• 3:05:53Speaker 00

  So, I don't know if that asked, answered your question about, um, the South Bay. I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but I don't know, like, when people, like, I feel like you're an open person. So if you ask me something, I'm like, and you're ready to go into my headspace and, and we can go there together, then I feel like cared for, listened to, and like, I'm like, because you know, you listen, and they're not present, they're looking at their phone, they're like, okay, this show's two hour, and I'm like, I got law, I, you know, and that's also how I write, very long, run-on sentences, no punctuation.

• 3:06:31Speaker 00

  Um, so there's no like creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it's not like my, my path is not someone else's path. And, um, and today it's just every day I wake up, which with what I didn't have before, which is gratitude. I just wake up and it's like, I had a horrible day today. Like it was not good. Like the fucking like flat tire, uh, appointment canceled, move back, fucking crazy family shit happening with my dad. And I was just like, I, I wasn't going to cancel, but the feeling was like, it's not this, not the right headspace to go.

• 3:07:16Speaker 00

  And then I said, you know what? Every, like, I could sit there and like self analyze, oh, you have depression, you have this. And it's like almost some weird OCD, like, and you're a horrible person and you, and you, you have antisocial traits and I go, okay. And then what are you going to do about it? You know? And so I, I sit back now. And if I examine my life like a scientist, I go, hey, uh, what was, what was, what was all that shit about on your, why did you say that stuff on your podcast? Why, why did you like do that thing that's against your value system?

• 3:07:59Speaker 00

  Why did you, what was about the fucking, like all the suicidal ideation, all the stuff, times you try to, like, what was that about? You know? And not just, like I said, like logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to like analyze it, like, but just an examination of my, my own, like doing an X-ray of my heart is like, what, what were you feeling then? And what, and why, like, what is the shame hitting? And why did you do that? And like, so I sit there and I go.

• 3:08:31Speaker 00

  We live in a society, I'll use I statements, I live in the way the culture I was grown was

• 3:08:39Speaker 00

  when someone asks you how you're doing, it's just good, okay, which aren't emotions, that's all you say, you don't go, oh, let me tell you, like, I'm feeling shame today, and I, you know, so we live, I live in, I lived, I was raised in a culture of, everything's fine, everything's okay, get along to go along, you know, I was a lot of like Asian, only Asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods, it's like, don't, it's a lot of immigrant story, right, like, don't rock the boat, don't do anything to stand out, we're guests in this country, we're lucky to be here, don't do, basically everything I did, you know, like, you know, keep, clear up the campground, leave it nice.

• 3:09:21Speaker 00

  And so I sit here, and if I'm being introspective, um, this is all, this stuff is like, this is why I say this would be intimate, because this is just private stuff that I don't, like, I'm trying to just, you know, know my own heart.

• 3:09:38Speaker 00

  So it's like, what? Why? What is the insane opening Pokemon packs about? Like, right, you could turn that into a joke, or like, what is, what is the unmet need, like, what is your depression telling you right now? What is your anger, if your anger is like unmatched with like, oh, there was like a little flare up at school, some kid said something to your kid, and then like your response is like, yeah, like, what's that about? So instead of shaming myself and going, I'm a piece of shit, oh, I did all this work and I, and I'm still this, it's this, and I think if I can get quiet and right-sized in that moment, instead of,

• 3:10:20Speaker 00

  oh, I need to like make a story in my head to be like, and just, just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable, like, if I can do that, I couldn't do that before, I can't, like, you have to either look at me like I'm nothing, or I'm the greatest, I can't just, oh, Dave's kind of boring today, or he's kind of not making sense, or he feels like I couldn't, it had to be all or nothing, it was very black and white, very Christian, the way I was raised, OCD, like, God's way or Satan's way. And so now I just go, that's

• 3:10:53Speaker 00

  That's Palo Alto. If I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like the mundane culturally, like if I could sit in the boring mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare to be moderate and, and just like, like I'm, like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's, what's the sensations? And I could, then that's where the brilliance is. Then I could find my inner spark, I could find, and, and, and then in that is when I feel the closest to you and other, like, if I'm with another person who's close, this is like, just like banging my head against the wall, but if I can meet another spirit

• 3:11:33Speaker 00

  or soul and you're, it doesn't have, I don't have to agree with you, but it's like you're, I don't, like, I've been talking my ass off, I understand that. Like, we could, we could go all night, right? And if you share with me your heart, then it's a shared brokenness. You don't get to where Andrew Huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth, like shit went down, I don't know, but it's on your face. And it's like a vibrational thing, right? Like, you don't, you don't fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool, right? You don't just become as smart as you are without, like, if you want to destroy me intellectually,

• 3:12:16Speaker 00

  you can, like, I won't, I wouldn't, I would be like, like, right? So if I can sit in and be vulnerable and sit like, hey, I'm not perfect, but I'm not a piece of shit, I'm enough, like, I don't need to do anything today. And, and that's, for me, that was like, like these cultural moments of watching OutKast be inducted into the Hall of Fame and Andre 3000 going, I'm not gonna rap, but everyone wants you to. That's not where I'm at right now, I'm just gonna, I was like, fucking amazing, you know? Or Tarantino saying Paul Dano, this is like the worst part of There Will Be Blood. I was like, wow, that's the best thing that ever happened, you saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant he is.

• 3:12:57Speaker 00

  I mean, what if Tarantino just said Paul Dano's amazing, then that would just, so I just, I just find these, like, what is, um, without trying to like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go. The space, right? Cause I I've done the brain mapping and they're like, the way it was explained to me, they dumbed it down. They're like, you're not a psychopath because you do psych- you do psychopathic things, but you actually care about people.

• 3:13:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're not a psychopath.

• 3:13:28Speaker 00

  And they say the the space in your brain, there's like a bridge. Like here's reality, you know, he's like, it's like, should I jump off this cliff? And like most people will executive function like, oh, okay, maybe I'm gonna get hurt. And like that that bridge is smaller for people like you. They saw like a little, they go, so you don't really think, you just do. And then that's how you you're like, how did I end up in jail? How did I fucking that like? And and and that makes for a great story. That makes for a great fucking life or like a storybook crazy life that makes for. And and that's a a story that's just told, oh, like you need to be a fucking psychotic, insane, crazy person to be the greatest artist, right?

• 3:14:11Speaker 00

  If you're just like a, you know, boring person, living at home with like air conditioning and wifi and your warm cup of Earl Grey and you could do good art. You could even do great art, but you won't ever be the best. Cause you're not, you're not facing your shadow. You're not looking at yourself. You're just, that's just technique. That's just craft. That's just skill like I'm ripping my fucking heart out and showing it to you. And like, what do you think? I'm not saying, what do you think? I'm like, fucking, what do you, you know?

• 3:14:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, I I feel it that, I mean, I feel it.

• 3:14:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:14:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, I mean, I I um.

• 3:14:44Speaker 00

  Sorry, there's like spit all over the table.

• 3:14:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  Please don't apologize. Don't apologize. I I no, please don't.

• 3:14:50Speaker 00

  I'm slobbering right into your microphone.

• 3:14:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  No apology.

• 3:14:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  You guys almost got me there. No apology. Um, I feel it. I mean, I I um, I feel it and and everybody feels it. And um, if they don't.

• 3:15:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  They should take a look inside like we're we're we're we're It's gonna sound like I'm name dropping now, but

• 3:15:16Speaker 00

  Go ahead, go for it.

• 3:15:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm very, I feel very blessed to have Rick Rubin as my close friend, right? Not because he's Rick Rubin who produced all this music, that's super cool too.

• 3:15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:15:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  But because he has antennae and he can feel shit.

• 3:15:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:15:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  And he can feel it, but he doesn't get absorbed in it. It's very interesting. I don't have that.

• 3:15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:15:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  I feel stuff and it it like the the it just

• 3:15:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:15:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  And um

• 3:15:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  I I am certain people feel your heart in what you do. The self sacrifice part is hard to hear about. I can relate.

• 3:15:54Speaker 00

  Well, I I I talked to Rob a little bit because he's like a PR dude before.

• 3:16:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Was a PR. He's like a producer now.

• 3:16:01Speaker 00

  I mean, he's out of it. That smile hides a lot of pain right there. Look at that smile. But uh Yeah, I

• 3:16:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's hard. It like

• 3:16:14Speaker 00

  You know, they say these all these like dumb quote like no is a complete sentence and it is, right? I go no and then have to make up some fake like, oh, but like I got the, you know, I I my car did get a flat tire, but that was a that used to be a thing I would make up. And then people would be like, let me see the meta data metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from like two years, you know, like So I would lie and and make up excuses, but the the ability to it goes against how I was raised. It goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to think like leaving money on the table saying so that I could put myself first for the first time

• 3:17:00Speaker 00

  and and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like it just sounded like that's I I'd already written my story. I'm like you know, and then when you have heroes like Bourdain, like I think a lot of people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that because they're like if the most interesting man on the planet, the guy that's a role model, a guy I look up to, like he's not, he can't fucking figure it out, then fuck what's there? And and then almost validates it like it's so you can do it too, like anyone like uh So I it was just it's just

• 3:17:38Speaker 00

  I had it written out, like, everyone I look to, look up to, and it's so fucking boring and cliche when I think about it. It makes me so angry. It's like,

• 3:17:49Speaker 00

  you know, live fast, die young, and then just have people say nice shit about you. And it's like, or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships. Like, I, you, you call me and you go, "Oh, you're probably busy." I'm like, "I'm not that busy, dude. I'm not a busy person. I make a lot of space for myself now." I don't like, I, I, and I deserve it. Like, I, I, I owe that to myself.

• 3:18:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I was about to say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it, you know?

• 3:18:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:18:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm glad to hear it because, um,

• 3:18:21Speaker 00

  Will you commit to taking a year off?

• 3:18:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  I could use some time off.

• 3:18:25Speaker 00

  Alright, so that sounds like, I'll start the negotiations at a year and then if I can get you anywhere close to that.

• 3:18:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:18:32Speaker 00

  Cause people will be like, "Oh shit," you know, like, the American vacation is like a week or two weeks, right? That's nothing. That's like barely enough time to-

• 3:18:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I have all these war stories. I don't wanna make this about me, but I have all these war stories, like, you know, my girlfriend at the time, she'll validate these as, you know, being, you know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when, and you, I mean, if I, I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was nineteen, like, that means non-stop. That means like fifty to a hundred hour weeks since then.

• 3:19:05Speaker 00

  Like, what's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life?

• 3:19:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Four days.

• 3:19:09Speaker 00

  I mean,

• 3:19:12Speaker 00

  this isn't me deflecting, it's just like, I, I just met you and like, I'm, I'm so happy that, like, I was like, if I can, if he gives me the space to speak what you did and you can feel what I, like, what I was trying to say and, like, to me, like, that's all I want is connection, right? Like, that's, I wanna be seen now before I was hiding and wearing masks, but in that, I felt you. And I go, I, I didn't know what you were gonna say, but I was like, "It's gonna be less than a week," because you don't get, cause I know, you don't get to where, nobody does. Everyone pays the price. You don't get to where you are right now by taking time off. You just don't, but

• 3:19:54Speaker 00

  like you just said to me, I'll say it back to you. You deserve it. And I, I, and to speak to the workaholic part of you, and I say this to people that are like you and me,

• 3:20:08Speaker 00

  You will have more ideas, more inspiration, more like you can't think now because you're thinking about how's Rob gonna get paid? How's the because you take care of a lot of people, right? But in that time, I could come, I could get rid of all this black, I could make add some color here. I could get you some white T-shirts, you could spend time with your family. Just the shit that you're running from, you know, and I feel like

• 3:20:31Speaker 00

  okay, a year is unrealistic. You're like, I'm running out, you know, but it's it will like people go, oh, go do plant medicine. I was like, just taking a year off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workaholism of just I gotta do something to have value and it's just and I feel like it will, when you come back, you'll be like like a thousand, you know, like and sometimes in our culture, we get knocked down, not by our choice and then but I'm like, this would be by your choice. You go, I, I taking care of Andy today. Love you, Rob. Love you, all you guys out there, but

• 3:21:14Speaker 00

  you know, you know what? I'll run your podcast while you're gone. That would be I'll do all the science. I'll, you could feed me some big words to use, but um And I'll go paint? Oh my God, I'm gonna yeah, I'm, I feel more comfortable with you now. It's like like, I think I would lie to you, like whatever, whatever you showed me, I would be like, oh, that's cool. But like, I think it's cool that anyone who's an egghead, who spends time up here, I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's just, it's the opposite of that, right? You're using the other side of your brain, but it sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head and I would just rip you out of that and I, it would be very uncomfortable, but then you could see the

• 3:22:00Speaker 00

  kind of like life, right? You just see, throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and and, and through that it's about control, right?

• 3:22:12Speaker 00

  I

• 3:22:16Speaker 00

  Had, I had to, you know, and part of being in 12 step in recovery is like, and, you know, and, and the wisdom to know the difference, you know, the thing, the serenity prayer is I had to, like, you can't control mother nature, you can't control a fire, you can't control what other people are gonna think about you or say about you, you just can't. You could try to, let me write a paper and like, so that, and, and, and yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it's tiring and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what, you know, like,

• 3:22:53Speaker 00

  and, and, and, so, I,

• 3:22:58Speaker 00

  yeah, I just, it, it, it, it's, it goes, it's anti, it goes against to, to the word winning and the win surrender, right? Like, I win every day because I surrender constantly now. And part of that, I gotta still fight because it's like you sound like a loser. Why are you giving up? Right? It's going to fucking shut the fuck up, pick yourself up by your, you know, bootstraps and get back in, and you're like, that's how you become the best. Like, all the other artists, they're like dealing with, like, you don't have kids, you don't get married, you fucking paint, you go to the art store, you buy all the paint up, you fucking keep painting, you steal all the paints, like, just keep painting, never stop, and it's all gonna be worth it because

• 3:23:39Speaker 00

  one day you're gonna die and then legacy. But now we see legacy is nothing, right? I get, I get in an Uber,

• 3:23:48Speaker 00

  get in the car, fucking smells like teen spirit, right? One of the greatest anthems ever, guy in the car, 27 years, what's this?

• 3:23:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I'll tell you.

• 3:23:58Speaker 00

  You don't, you don't know fucking Nirvana? Okay, have you seen Goodfellas? Like, whatever, whatever who's the godfather, like, go down the list.

• 3:24:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  The greatest.

• 3:24:05Speaker 00

  Nobody cares.

• 3:24:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right, the great.

• 3:24:07Speaker 00

  It's over.

• 3:24:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  The greatest.

• 3:24:08Speaker 00

  So it's just this, it's just this, this is all you have. So, you've done enough, people fucking love you, you've helped so many people, and I want you to take one year off. And I don't care if people are like, fuck that guy, that guy helps me every day. I want to hear his soothing voice every night, but I'm like, AI, bro, just use AI. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying, I would love. Whatever you've been running from, whatever you've been doing to, like you help a lot of people, but do you help yourself on that level? And it's like, yeah, um, pa- starting painting, that's taking care of you. Like, it's not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people like you

• 3:24:53Speaker 00

  are not gonna outsmart the feeling, right? You're not gonna outrun the pain. And it's like, uh, like, I don't know what your father was like. I don't know what your mom was like, but they're proud of you. Like, you don't need to do more. Like, they're proud of you and and like, if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them. You just gotta fucking, Andrew, I'm really disappointed in you. Then you know you're doing something right, you know? Um, sorry for talking over you.

• 3:25:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, I was interrupting.

• 3:25:23Speaker 00

  What, what are you, what, like, your, your face says a lot, so I just wanna know what you're, try to, um,

• 3:25:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but it's not, I, let, let's let it pass, cuz it, it, yes and yes, the legacy thing, it, it,

• 3:25:36Speaker 00

  It's nothing.

• 3:25:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's nothing, um,

• 3:25:39Speaker 00

  Like, I've done, I feel like I've done so much in acting, like, I've done all these things and people are like, who's that Chinese kid? I'm like, it, it doesn't matter.

• 3:25:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, they don't say-

• 3:25:49Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter. Like, you do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind. And I go, you just have this. You just have like right now, today, and that's it. And like, we're gonna, we did this today and then and then it's off to the universe. I, I can't control what people are gonna think about me. And it's like, I came here today with my intention of meeting you, telling you how you make me feel and how like, how much I appreciate you. And I did that. So that's it. And that, like, I have no ill will. I'm not trying to like, yeah, I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now, but it's like, fine, okay, that's, that's my- And I I should probably just let all that stuff go, but to tell someone who's used to winning,

• 3:26:32Speaker 00

  who's fought like tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and like prove people wrong over and over again, to tell someone like that, hey, just surrender. It's like, fuck you, dude. You don't like, you don't tell me that like.

• 3:26:46Speaker 00

  So yeah, that journey from head to heart is it's a big one. And that's why the like, you can't say that to everyone, right? Because they're like, I gotta fucking, but I'm like, I I don't know your financial situation, but I'm like, I think you could take a year off like, um, uh, it's not for, but but that's the other thing, right? Like, it must be nice, Dave, from your pers- and I go, I was homeless. Like, I've lived the worst, like, like people for like, I know I sound defensive, but like I've, I wasn't born rich, like I worked for this, so it's like, must sound nice from a rich guy's perspective. And I go, if if I think back to my happiest moments, or even just my most creative moments, it was always less, it was never more, right?

• 3:27:31Speaker 00

  So when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to, we're living together in a, you know, and it's fucking cold, but at least we got body. You know, I'm making it sound like, uh, you know, like we're, we were okay, but I'm like, we didn't have that much and it was, it was great because we had each other. And and I think back and I go, okay, creative output, let's go to work. You know, let's go back into my head and I go, oh, every time I had like a Renaissance level creative explosion, there was no wifi and there was no heater, it was always freezing. It was cold, like you're talking about deprivation, yeah, like, and then now,

• 3:28:10Speaker 00

  like, it's just, it would be with my, uh, attention, it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic devices. I could, I couldn't do it.

• 3:28:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  My social media is on a separate phone and goes into a lockbox that can't be coded out.

• 3:28:26Speaker 00

  Hey, you don't need to.

• 3:28:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  To get work done.

• 3:28:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:28:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, what I hear, well, first of all, I I want to be clear that, um.

• 3:28:32Speaker 00

  I don't need an answer from you, I'm just throwing the the challenge of the gauntlet down.

• 3:28:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  All right.

• 3:28:36Speaker 00

  I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met, who I care about and I like, um.

• 3:28:46Speaker 00

  We're humans, right? Can't just run forever. Like, there needs to be a recharge, a refresh. Like, there's just things that I, that you get offered. I guess you're like, I'm never gonna do that. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it. Why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart? Or this part of your, uh, journey for a month? You're like, I'm not gonna fucking do that. And it's like, but why not? You deserve it. And it's gonna be hard. It's not like a fun vacation. And like, for me, the way I think about it is

• 3:29:16Speaker 00

  part of, part of like, what? Cause I take podcasting, so like, I'm, it does, I, I try to manicure how I look and sound, and I do a lot of rese, people, and I try to make it look like I didn't. Right? Like, before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern, I like, I, I call up people and I fucking do like, I talk for 12, I go, is this work? Is it like? And then I come on and I try, and, and that's fake. And it's been years since I did a podcast. I was like, I, I, I'm getting like a very genuine feeling from you. And so I don't wanna do that today. And I was fucking, that's what I was puking. I was scared. I was like, I'm just gonna come in and I might say something that like fucks me up

• 3:29:58Speaker 00

  cause it has so many times, but I'm just gonna be the truest version of, I guess I could,

• 3:30:05Speaker 00

  that was scary to me. That was like really being naked. Like, I, I like to be prepared and I, like, last night, it was late. I couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh, fuck, I can't believe, cause it's like, I live a quiet, like, I don't, and I was like, oh, man, like, uh, it was like, let me, like, like, not like you're the enemy. I was like, oh, I'm going into enemy territory. What if he has like, I got you question? Like, I have to have a, a, you know, like, it was, it was like I was at Vice again. You know, Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks. And I was like, this is exhausting. And I was like, but can you just go and just? You know, and I and I realize it took me like two hours to answer like one question, but that's I also accept that about myself, you know.

• 3:30:50Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, I started like, I started, I Andrew Hugh, and then it was like, you're it finishes your name and all and I was like, I'm not gonna do this. I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna just fucking read about you all night and then like have come in like prepared.

• 3:31:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Great. Great.

• 3:31:08Speaker 00

  I was like, I just.

• 3:31:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm so glad, I'm so glad you abandoned that.

• 3:31:11Speaker 00

  I did, I did. I said, just fucking.

• 3:31:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Dude.

• 3:31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:31:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Man, I'm so grateful you showed up here that in that frame, that no frame frame.

• 3:31:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:31:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um, I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you're gonna get that thing, but I'm just gonna tell you it. I'll tell you.

• 3:31:31Speaker 00

  Um, I'll prepare, I'll sit in.

• 3:31:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  There are a couple of reasons you're here. Some of them I touched on earlier. You're amazing artist. You're amazing person, but the main reason you're here is because a long time ago, I saw you at a meeting and I learned from you there.

• 3:31:48Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 3:31:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend.

• 3:31:54Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 3:31:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I know I can learn a lot from him.

• 3:31:56Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 3:31:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Uh, so without getting into any details about that.

• 3:32:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you can. I don't care.

• 3:32:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, maybe another time. Um.

• 3:32:05Speaker 00

  I told you.

• 3:32:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, you've helped me. You've helped me a ton. I also, um, like, I have this model in my head. Maybe this is the the scientist in me where, but I feel like you've made yourself like the anvil, the hammer, end of metal, like all you like you. And it's like this cycle of the the opportunity to do something, to feel something, and then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame. But to me, it's the whole cycle, right? But the thing that I I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth.

• 3:32:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 3:32:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  They don't like, yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also. And yes, you have a gift for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art, but it's. You know, people learn and you know, we touched on Bourdain, who I didn't know. I know you and Joe were both close to him. I know a couple of other people who are close to him. And you know, I'm not here on a public service campaign. That's not how I do this podcast. I'm only here with you right now, but you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves. A close friend do that recently, a very famous scientist that appeared to have everything, this kind of thing. And it's happening more and more. And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you.

• 3:33:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they hear the extent to which, yeah, there are a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happen, but

• 3:33:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  you're still here and you're still going. And that example is really, really important.

• 3:33:46Speaker 00

  Well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be a survivor. You know, it's like I'm a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody. And I'm not trying to like.

• 3:33:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you're, but you're still going.

• 3:33:55Speaker 00

  But I don't wanna survive. I wanna thrive.

• 3:33:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right. You're a driver.

• 3:33:58Speaker 00

  That's why I think of like a Korean Jesus or Pee Wee Herman. And I go, it was like, I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a lot. It was really painful, right? If, if, if you get it, it wasn't easy and it wasn't easy for everyone. But so then you go, well, will you work on yourself? Will you do this work? Will you go to a meeting? And it's like, are we having fun yet? Right? It's like, it's a lot of fucking pain and work to just be, you know? And the question is like, I wanna put, is like, are we having fun yet? Like, isn't, are we supposed to have fun? Like, you know, my son wakes up every morning laughing. I go, what the fuck is happening up there?

• 3:34:44Speaker 00

  What is like, I, I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling. It's like, and I'm like, oh, if we can remember, like I, like it was dumb doing the secret word, but I, I loved it. Like, are you guys scared the shit? Like, I, I, you know, and it's people, uh, you know, trigger warning. They do like, there's a lot of people killing themselves, like on an epidemic, men. Like, I don't know that many women, but a lot of men.

• 3:35:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mostly men.

• 3:35:15Speaker 00

  And so powerful tool.

• 3:35:18Speaker 00

  Because I've done so much reckless shit. I am, it's, I'm a miracle that I'm here right now. And I'm not saying that to be like, oh, I just.

• 3:35:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, I think it is a miracle.

• 3:35:27Speaker 00

  Been dead a lot of times.

• 3:35:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, I think God's been looking out for you.

• 3:35:30Speaker 00

  So I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on like some guru Messiah type shit. It's like, so I ma- I ma- I made it through that. I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff. But even that, like, I, I wouldn't, I would be called a pussy and all that if I did that. And I go, I just, allowing myself to feel everything and

• 3:35:55Speaker 00

  a- and, and so I, I, I learned this tool called just play the tape out. Right? So you go.

• 3:36:05Speaker 00

  If you're an idiot, you're an idiot. But if you're, have any level of intelligence, you go, well, how do you think this ends for you? How do you think this drug problem ends for you? How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you? How do you think nonstop, like, it doesn't end well. Right? That's one of my favorite things to tell my friends. That's okay right now. It's mad. I go, but addiction and, and it just, it just escalates. It doesn't stay, you don't just kind of like, and then someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So it's dangerous and, and, and addiction loves novelty, right? So if, if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he never, he wasn't a little boy when they go, I hope I do that one day.

• 3:36:49Speaker 00

  That happened. Started with weed, then it went to coke and it just escalated, right? He wasn't like, I wanna do degrading acts that I don't wanna do for drugs, but it escalated. And that's on the addict side, but I just found myself having a lot of, I sw- like weird broken problem. I swear I'll never do that, but then I'm like, here I am in this weird place, doing weird shit that it's going against my value system. Here I am, oh, I'm chasing the shame again. So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I'm, I'm applying logic again. But if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, hey, you're not an idiot. Play the tape out. Your, your behavior that's like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet,

• 3:37:34Speaker 00

  but it's on the path and you're like, yeah, I'll be all right. It's like. Just play it out, like, how do you think this ends for you? Right? I go, I need to go back to podcasting. Right? And then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet? Or is it like, you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders. You seem miserable. You seem like you can find, like, I'm not, it's just like, in general, I don't find podcasters like happy people. It's just, it's just like, it's just like, I go, so when, like, when, like, you know, oh, look, cut, let's go, and it's like, oh, shit, sponsors. It's like, I gotta fucking, the numbers are going down this, and I'm like, can we have fun?

• 3:38:17Speaker 00

  Like, is it only about making money and just?

• 3:38:22Speaker 00

  It's enough, like, if, and it's, it's, it's because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city, where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up, it's not hundreds, it's thousands of messages telling you you're not enough, right? And so I do the brain mapping, I do it, and it's like, wow, Dave, you're really hard on yourself. You say so much, it's, it's, it's, it's like, if someone said that to my friend, I would,

• 3:38:53Speaker 00

  I would do something. So it's like a lot of punishing, like, self-talk. And then it feels gay to say, I'm enough. I'm, you know, it's like, that's, that, again, why, why do you have to say it like that? It's like, oh, I'm worthy, I am a good person, I am a good father, I am a good friend, I am a good brother. You know, it's like, this sounds like just self-help. But I'm, I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world till, so why can't I brainwash myself into thinking I'm a good person? So then I, I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like, real stuff, not like, that's how I feel. And it's like, that's weird, I don't want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him, but it, it does, I mean, even for black, it does.

• 3:39:38Speaker 00

  So, so the tools is like, You know, riding with deodorant, like a thick, white, chunky deodorant. Just so I see it, so it's in my psyche, because it's every day, it's billboards of good-looking people, and I don't look like that. So the messaging is all fucked up, and unless I'm just gonna say fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do. Yeah, just write on the wall, I am worthy, I'm enough. And I see it every morning when I wash my face. And it's just like, I'm starting to brainwash myself. It's like, that's one tool, is like, telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them, not till they're dead, not till it's like, they're in their bottom, and I'm like, hey, and it's like, I tell them every day, because that's, that's, that's all we have. And then I say that about myself.

• 3:40:22Speaker 00

  And then I can catch myself, like that bridge that was like, basically like a suicide bridge, just like reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior. But all of this shit is hard, because I'm coming at it with generations of a story that says, you need to stay sick. Like, when you hear Kanye say bipolar is my superpower, like, there's a part of me that's like, of course. And I, I like my artists fucked up. The more fucked up you are, that's true genius, that's, you know, and I go. You know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who's as creative as you, is so, you're so like boring and small-thinking, when you just buy into those things.

• 3:41:04Speaker 00

  It's like, eh, like, is there anyone who lives a moderate life? Just a regular, does, everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like, that is doing great art? And I go, show me an example, there's, and I go, but couldn't you be the first? Well, there's ego and narcissism, and it's just like, just, and then, okay, fine, let's just go, let's go with, let's play that tape out. Let's just say, for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you're never gonna have the best podcast or the best art, you're just gonna be kinda like right there, seventy percent. What's wrong with that, you know? But that's not, that's going against everything, right? So I have to. It's hard, you know, and especially something with art where it's in.

• 3:41:46Speaker 00

  There's just people that are like, you're literally doing the worst art I've ever seen in my life. You know, I wish, you know, it's like, oh, their first album was good type shit, you know? And there's part of me that's like, yeah, this earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over. And the stuff now is way more looser and, but I love it now. Like, I like, I like myself, how I feel and. It's, it's very rare that you have. That's, you know, the whole lonely at the top, that you have these champions, people that are like the best at what they do, the top 1% of. The world champion of this, this, that, you meet them and they're just like a content, satisfied, happy person. They're just miserable and you're like, what?

• 3:42:29Speaker 00

  Was the point? Why? And, and it's either.

• 3:42:35Speaker 00

  You, you have the courage through yourself and friends to, to make that change. Like I'll, I'll, if you take a year off, like, we're gonna hang out a lot. Like, we're gonna paint, we're gonna serve. That's awesome incentive. Like, we're gonna do all that, but it's like, like, it's always like, you gotta do it alone. That was my message. Like, shut, like, shut the fuck up, don't complain. Like, very Asian, very Korean, like, don't say anything, like, someone fucking treats you like shit. Keep your head down and just, it's all revenge is a dish best served cold, you know, just fucking shut, don't ever. Let them know, see where you're coming, see how you feel and just. Your, your, your revenge is success, like, just like, that guy treated you shit at work, then just.

• 3:43:18Speaker 00

  Become the guy that owns that business and then fire him, you know, like.

• 3:43:24Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm so fucking glad that guy Chip got fired. That felt so good. Chip sounds like an asshole. He was such an asshole, but I, so you just, I, I have, and those things, all these tools are like. Okay, cool. They're all simple. Okay, wake up every day and say I'm a good person? Yeah, it's simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. You have to like work at it. And feel it. Yeah, like, oh, get up every day and do a hundred pushups. I could do that, but I don't, but you could, it's like, but you care about. Your physical health, but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health? What, your spiritual health, you know, oh, I'm not religious, it's like, spirituality is. It's the ocean, it's the universe, it's, it's a power greater than you, right? So.

• 3:44:08Speaker 00

  So I, yeah, that, that.

• 3:44:11Speaker 00

  Playing the tape out is a very valuable, powerful, like I, I need to take action in this way and sometimes the action is to do less and it's to do nothing where everything growing up was do more and

• 3:44:31Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, am I making any sense, but through your face I could see that I feel like, I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me. So, thank you.

• 3:44:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you. You are absolutely heard and you're absolutely understood and I'm very grateful to you. And um,

• 3:44:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  I know everyone listening is too. The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is, that's oddly the hardest thing, but the encouragement is heard. It lands.

• 3:45:07Speaker 00

  I think also because I've talked so much about shame and I'll end it with this. It feels like a,

• 3:45:15Speaker 00

  is a hope and faith is also a very powerful drug and sometimes like, like I said with my mom or me believing in Santa, like there's no logic in that, but

• 3:45:27Speaker 00

  you know, entire wars and nations are fought over faith and you know, and

• 3:45:35Speaker 00

  I feel like because I'm sensitive and I'm empathetic to everybody that I meet, that it feels like a really hopeless time and I feel like that's why there's a lot of self-harm and depression. And um, so it's like weird. It's like, how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there's like 70,000 homeless people like natural disasters, drug epidemics, you know, just all this shit and it's like,

• 3:46:03Speaker 00

  then to, to, you know, to, to, to brainwash yourself. Like if, because that's what the connection is. Like if I don't believe it, to find, to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, hey, I'm having, it was like the hardest thing to do. It was like, I need help right now. I can't. It's like weird to admit to someone that I can't.

• 3:46:27Speaker 00

  Do like, I can't, I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can I, can you say something nice about me? What, that sounds very egotistic, but I, I need that right now. I really don't like myself right now. And to have someone say something nice and you go, okay. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to say something nice about myself. And then you're building something called hope and faith. And so I, I don't know, um, I told a long Pee Wee Herman story, but at the end of that, I was like, what was that? It's like, okay, that's resilience, that's taking chance, that's believing in yourself.

• 3:47:07Speaker 00

  But I never gave up hope, you know, it's like.

• 3:47:12Speaker 00

  And it's just, and that's delusional in a way, but that's.

• 3:47:20Speaker 00

  Like how, like if you take facts and numbers and it's like, this is the end of the world. This is like, AI is gonna kill, like all this fucking doomsday, post-apocalyptic is like. I don't need that shit, dude. I don't watch horror movies. I don't surround myself with like, that's fine. Like that's everyone do your own thing. And like I said, you know, we were both like, we like punk, but we don't like hardcore. Like I used to love hardcore because it's, I, I needed that. I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, oh, that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me. It doesn't now, and I fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy. And now I listen to reggae, you know, I go reggae on the river, whatever, you know, like,

• 3:48:04Speaker 00

  and I'm just like, you know, and I immediately judge, I go, I can't believe you're fucking listening to reggae. This is like stoner music, but it's, it's the frequency is hitting me now. So I can be appreciative of hardcore music, but um. Yeah, I, I, if I look back and I go, what, what was, what was that? What the fuck was that like? It was just screaming for help. Lost and hopeless. And I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help, not if you reach out, not if you connect with other people. And that is gonna be impossible to do if you don't.

• 3:48:48Speaker 00

  You need to, now I sound like I'm a fucking know it all, but it's like you need to deprive yourself of electronics, like it has to happen, like you can't have real emotion if you're watching TV or your phone, like it's the only way, like any time, it's like a secret language. Anytime I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone, they have whatever you call it, I give a wink, I go, yeah, cuz I know, I'm like this guy, he's, he cares about himself, cuz you can't, oh, I gotta fuck, it's like, no, you don't. You don't need to know who's being murdered on every country and what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. So,

• 3:49:30Speaker 00

  I believe, I have faith that we're all here for a reason and, and uh, and to anyone listening, and I don't, I don't know when this is coming out, and I didn't know, I honestly didn't know I was gonna publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season. Is this gonna come out soon or after Christmas? Okay. Just try it on, just, just like, I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa, like all the, I know kids already do, but any grownups, bitter, jaded adults listening, just, just try it on this, this year, just, and if you need, you know, he can teleport, he's a mutant, he has special abilities, and he knows if you've been naughty or nice, so. Yeah, I don't, I don't know, we could, I could, like,

• 3:50:16Speaker 00

  this is the problem, because where we're at now is when I would start. Like I'm, this was like the pre, like when I used to do my podcast, DVD, I say, we, this be like, oh, it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation, it was you talking the whole time, and we're three hours in and, and be like, okay, now let's, now let's start, let's get ugly and real and be like, nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude, I'm like, I do, so, I'm gonna, I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours.

• 3:50:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Easy.

• 3:50:49Speaker 00

  And we could maybe do that one day.

• 3:50:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  We should.

• 3:50:51Speaker 00

  But I feel like, I don't know, am I, am I, you know what? I'm surrendering. I feel like, unless you have more shit to ask me, then I'm down.

• 3:51:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man, I've, uh, in the, uh, language of, uh, meetings and other things, I, I think, uh, for now.

• 3:51:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:51:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  We're complete.

• 3:51:11Speaker 00

  Thank you so much, man.

• 3:51:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you.

• 3:51:13Speaker 00

  Thank you. That was so, I mean, I, I feel good.

• 3:51:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I feel good, too. Very grateful. Thank you.

• 3:51:22Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:51:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho. To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first

• 3:52:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman

• 3:52:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you Haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter? The neural network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.

• 3:53:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

• 3:53:53Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company for me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd.

• 3:53:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami.

• 3:54:00Speaker 00

  They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 3:54:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 3:54:07Speaker 00

  From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 3:54:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 3:54:14Speaker 00

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 3:54:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm not the first then.

• 3:54:18Speaker 00

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.