Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds | Dr. Becky Kennedy

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Becky Kennedy, Ph. D., a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and founder of Good Inside, an education platform for parents and parents-to-be. We discuss actionable protocols for raising resilient, emotionally healthy kids and effective alternatives to typical forms of reward and punishment that instead teach children valuable skills and strengthen the parent-child bond. These protocols also apply to other types of relationships: professional, romantic, friendships, siblings, etc. We explain how to respond to emotional outbursts, rudeness, and entitlement, repair fractured relationships, build self-confidence, and improve interpersonal connections with empathy while maintaining healthy boundaries. We also discuss how to effectively communicate with children and adults with ADHD, anxiety, learning challenges, or with “deeply feeling” individuals. The conversation is broadly applicable to all types of social interactions and bonds. By the end of the episode, you will have learned simple yet powerful tools to build healthy relationships with kids, teens, adults, and oneself. For show notes, including referenced articles and additional resources, please visit hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://athleticgreens.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab Waking Up: https://wakingup.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Dr. Becky Kennedy (00:02:44) Sponsors: Mateína, Joovv & AeroPress (00:07:35) Healthy Relationships: Sturdiness, Boundaries & Empathy (00:14:34) Tool: Establishing Boundaries (00:18:24) Rules, Boundaries & Connection (00:22:19) Rewards & Punishments; Skill Building (00:29:48) Sponsor: AG1 (00:31:16) Kids & Inherent Good (00:34:06) Family Jobs, Validation & Confidence, Giving Hope (00:41:54) Rewards, Pride (00:44:48) Tool: “I Believe You”, Confidence & Safety; Other Relationships (00:52:15) Trauma, Aloneness & Repair (00:57:07) Tool: Repair & Apologies, Rejecting Apology (01:01:04) Tool: Good Apologies (01:03:35) Sponsor: InsideTracker (01:04:37) Tool: Rudeness & Disrespect, Most Generous Interpretation (01:12:32) Walking on Eggshells, Pilot Analogy & Emotional Outbursts, Sturdy Leadership (01:20:49) Deeply Feeling Kids; Fears, Sensory Overload (01:30:10) Co-Parenting Differences & Punishment (01:37:11) Tool: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); Meditation (01:41:20) Tool: Tolerating Frustration, Screen Time, Learning (01:51:57) Grace & Parenthood, Parenting Job Description; Relationship to Self (01:55:24) Tool: “I’m Noticing”, Asking Questions; Emotional Regulation (02:01:15) Adolescence & Critical Needs, Explorers vs. Nomads (02:09:58) Saying “I Love You”, Teenagers; Family Meetings (02:15:07) Self-Care, Rage & Boundaries; Sturdy Leaders; Parent Relationship & Conflict (02:22:08) Tool: Wayward Teens, Marijuana & Substance Use, Getting Additional Help (02:30:03) Mentors (02:34:26) Tool: Entitlement, Fear & Frustration (02:41:57) Tool: Experiencing Frustration; Chores & Allowance (02:46:31) Good Inside Platform (02:51:27) Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, YouTube Feedback, Sponsors, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

• 0:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist specializing in parent-child relationships. She received her degrees and did her training at Duke University and Columbia University in New York. She is the author of the bestselling book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. She is also the founder and creator of an online learning platform, also called Good Inside, at which parents and parents-to-be can learn the best possible parenting skills that are grounded in the fields of clinical psychology, that have been proven to work in the real world, and that can allow people to navigate common sticking points in parent-child

• 0:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  relationships. During today's discussion, you will learn a tremendous amount of actionable knowledge about what it is to be a good parent. This is a conversation that pertains not just to parents and parents-to-be, but also uncles, aunts, grandparents, and also those of you not planning to, or who do not want children. I say that because while everything we discuss today is grounded in the discussion around parent-child relationships, it indeed pertains to all of us and relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, friendships, workplace relationships, and our relationship to self. Dr. Kennedy defines for us and makes clear and actionable what the exact job of good parenting is, and how that relates to other relationships that we might have.

• 1:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  She explains how to set healthy boundaries, and in fact, defines exactly what healthy boundaries are. There's a lot of misconception about that. We also talk a lot about empathy, and the need to make children and ourselves feel safe in all kinds of relating. We discuss how to navigate disagreements and arguments, apologies and punishments, reward, and on and on, all framed within a real-world, real-time context. What I mean by that, and what I think really sets apart Dr. Becky Kennedy's work from so much else that you'll see out there on parent-child And other types of relationships is that she makes what to do and say and what not to do and say in a variety of real world contexts very clear such that you can access that knowledge

• 2:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  and do those specific things and avoid those specific things even when things get tense. In fact, especially when things get difficult or tense. By the end of today's episode, you will have learned a dozen or more very potent clinically backed tools to navigate parent child relating, including your relationship to your own parents, alive or dead, and your relationship to self. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company for me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17.9 to meet without parent.

• 3:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Thank you. So excited to be here.

• 3:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  I have a lot of questions for you. And as I mentioned in my introduction, much of what we are going to discuss today relates to parent child relating, but pertains to relationships generally. So people with children, without children, who don't want children. Hopefully there aren't people that hate children, but for all people out there with children or not, planning them or not.

• 4:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Relationships are really just fundamental to who we are. And I actually place relationships, including relationship to self, in what we now think of as the six pillars of mental health, physical health and performance. Sleep, nutrition, exercise. Relationships clearly vital to all aspects of life. So I'd like to start off by just asking, for all of us, are there some simple or perhaps not so simple questions that we can reflect on that give us a sense of, you know, how good a parent we are or would be based on, I don't know, our previous parent-child relationships? Our relationship to self?

• 4:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, like what kind of things come to bear when we think about really healthy relationships? I can, you know, start rattling off a list of what I imagine they could be, but what are your thoughts? Like, what are the, what's the parameter space, as we say? How should we think about relationships besides just, oh, you know, I either like this person or don't, or I feel good around them or I don't, or separating how I feel about them versus how they make me feel? You know, maybe we can drill a little deeper below the, the kind of more superficial stuff that we often see out there.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  The first thing that comes to mind when you say that is this word, sturdiness. And to me, when someone says, like, what is good inside is an approach, and that's always the first word that comes to mind. And I know that's like an odd word. It's not a word we like use a lot, although I do think most people, when you say that person's like a really sturdy person, I think we all have some connotation or feeling at least of what that means. And I use it a lot, being a sturdy parent, being a sturdy leader. I talk a lot about the similarities to parenting and kind of being a pilot of a plane. And, and that word sturdy always comes up. And so I remember a little while ago, someone pushed me, they're like, what's your definition of what that means? And at that point, I thought, wow, I should probably have a definition, given I use it a lot. But what I think it really means is inability to be connected to yourself and to someone else at the same time.

• 6:01Speaker 04

  And I think that is really the definition of sturdy leadership, and that is the key thing that's present in a healthy relationship, that at once... I kind of know my values, what I want, what I need. I feel like I can be true to that. And at the same time, I can kind of connect to someone else who probably has different wants and needs and maybe even slightly different values at the same time. And the thing that that leads me to next is what I think about is like family jobs, an apparent job. So in almost any other place, you could assume if I'm getting a new job at this company, like, there's just no way I could do my job well if I don't know what my job is.

• 6:46Speaker 04

  Right? If you go to your desk and your boss is like, have a good day, do a good job, and there's no job description, you'd be like, I think that's impossible. But over and over with parents, if I say to them, well, what is your job with your kid? Or when your kid's having a tantrum, or they're rude, or they lie to your face, or anything, what is your job in that moment? Most people, very well-intentioned, educated people who would never, ever take a job if they didn't have a job description, they look at me, they're like, I have, I have no idea. So how can we do it well? How can we then perform it to a place to get to the outcomes we want if you don't have the foundation of what your job is? And to me, I thought a lot about it. I think parents actually have two jobs, and it relates to sturdiness. So you'll, you'll connect it where one of our jobs is boundaries.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  And to me, boundaries are things we tell people we will do, and they require the other person to do nothing. And that's like really important because a lot of times we think we're setting a boundary when actually we're making a request. And boundaries keep us connected to ourselves. They represent our values and our wants and our needs. And in a parent-child relationship, they also keep our kids safe. If I just know in a simple way, like, my kid's watched enough TV today and they really have to get to bed, and I know that, like, I don't want them to stay up late, I kind of know what my family needs, I have to set a boundary. But the other part of my job is empathy and validation, which is a way of connecting

• 8:15Speaker 04

  to someone else where you see someone else's feelings and experience as real. You don't agree with it, probably. You don't necessarily condone the behavior. That's the representation of the feelings, but the feelings themselves you need to connect to. And I feel like those are our two jobs as parents, and that's really the way to be a sturdy leader and to be in a sturdy, healthy relationship with your kids.

• 8:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow, so much there, and I love it. And here's one of the reasons I love it. This notion of sturdiness, something that I don't think we hear enough about. You know, we hear about resilience, grit, also important terms. But sturdiness, as you've described it in the job of parenting, really seems to include a lot of verbs, not just nouns and adjectives. And I'm a huge fan of verbs because biology, and to some extent, psychology, yes, also psychology, is all about verbs. And so the labels often are mysterious.

• 9:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  But sturdiness, you know, just sends a clear message of something that doesn't budge easily. But then, as you described the job of being a parent, having boundaries, and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more, what, how you view boundaries, but also empathy, it's not a walled off picture. It's one that is semi-permeable. Also, and I confess I'm a bit obsessed with old school psychoanalytic theory, not as the be all, end all of psychology, but it also suggests like this other, other relationship. Like, I'm a person, I have a self, you're a person, you have a self. This is the opposite of codependency, where obviously dependency

• 10:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  and two people being quote unquote codependent can be healthy in the context of relying on one another. But as I understand it, when one person has a self and another person doesn't have a self, or this notion of merging, not just in romantic relationships, but... Child parent relationships, you know, I'm best friends with my mom or dad. Is that a good thing? I don't know. But this notion of other other relationships. It's like I'm a self, you're a self, and we each see each other as another. Anyway, I, I think there's so much to explore here, so valuable. You mentioned that boundaries are something that we do and that the requires that the other do nothing. Could we go a little bit further into that?

• 10:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because it's a beautiful concept and this notion of boundaries. But like gaslighting narcissism and all the other things that we hear about nowadays, I think is often badly misunderstood. So tell us more about boundaries and how that looks in the, in the action sense of it.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  And this is all so connected to what you're saying, that other other relationship. I'm a person, you're a person. And so many times that's actually is what gets merged. And so my kid gets upset that I say they can't watch another show. And, and a parent really in that moment, it's like their, whose feelings are whose? Like they were upset, was I was upset? A second ago, I thought I should set the boundary and now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind. There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger, which is one of the main reasons that kids get actually really scared and escalate their behavior. Cause they don't have a sturdy leader when they really need one, right? So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do and they require the other person to do nothing. I like this definition for a lot of reasons. I'm just very practical. So it allows me after I set a boundary to like assess, was that a boundary or not? Right?

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Because let's take, um, let's take the TV example. It's whatever time at night. My kid has just watched a show and they know they're supposed to watch one show and then, you know, turn off the TV. I hear from parents a lot, my kid doesn't listen or my kid doesn't respect my boundaries. And I'll say, okay, like that sounds hard. Let's get into that. So then I'll say, so I told my kid to shut off the TV.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  They just kept watching. They just kept on. I told my kid to stop jumping on the couch and they kept jumping. They don't respect my boundaries. They don't listen. To me, this is like a beautiful example of like, this is a problem, I agree, but this is not a boundary problem. You made a request of your child. And frankly, if you have your, I'm making this up, seven-year-old watching TV, I'm not so good at putting away TV in a phone at night. Like, it's just hard for me to do. So, your seven-year-old probably is just, you know, addicted to what's ever happening. And we're kind of asking our kid to do our job for us, because we don't want our kid to be mad at us, or whatever it is. A boundary in that situation would be saying, "Ooh, you didn't put off the TV. Look, by the time I get over there, if you haven't turned off the TV, and I don't want to do

• 12:55Speaker 04

  this, but I will, I will take the remote out of your hand and shut it off." A boundary is saying, "Ooh, after my request doesn't work, can you get off the couch? You can jump on the floor. Look, if by the time I get over there, you haven't gotten off the couch, I will pick you up." That is, like, I was, I'm not going to put the success of my intervention in my, like, seven-year-old's hand. I care too much about my own needs and my own role as a, as a leader in my home to do that. Right? Same thing with, let's say, in-laws. My mother-in-law doesn't respect my boundary. She always shows up without calling. Now, I don't want to get to this point. There's a lot of things in a relationship we can do before we get to this point. But if that's really a boundary, and I have a very kind of intrusive mother-in-law, a boundary would be saying, "Look, this is going to be awkward, and I know you mean

• 13:40Speaker 04

  well, but the next time you come unannounced, I will come to your car and say, 'Oh, this time doesn't work for us. You cannot come in, and I will go back into my house and close the door.'" Like, now, there's going to be lots of feelings around that, but you are now setting a true boundary. And when we say our kids don't listen...

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Those are often situations, not all of them, but there's a big percentage, where I'm actually not setting a boundary early enough and in a sturdy enough way, which is what my kid needs because at that point, they simply don't have the skills to inhibit an urge, and they need me to be the boundary for them.

• 14:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  We hear sometimes that kids are craving rules. They're craving boundaries. I was kind of a wild adolescent and teenager. Maybe a little more than wild. I don't recall ever craving rules, but I do recall paying attention to their lack of presence. So what of that? You know, is this notion that kids really want and crave rules and boundaries, is that sort of a, I don't know, projection that we put on to them? And I'm not exploring this just for fun. I'm exploring it because I think that one thing that's very helpful in setting boundaries, especially with kids,

• 15:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  is the idea that, gosh, even if it's a bit painful to see them in discomfort, there's that empathy piece that you talked about before. That empathic attunement can get in the way of boundaries, right? These are, and they're not mutually exclusive, but these are somewhat competing forces at times. So if we know, or if we can acknowledge, or at least explore this idea that rules are deep down what they really want, not just what they need.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Maybe it would help.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Yes, and I think, by the way, in my taking, you know, the remote away, or taking my kid off the couch, just to be clear, if I do that to my kid, like, they are not going to say, "Oh, Mom, you are the best mom in the world. Thank you." They are going to cry and scream. And that's where boundaries and empathy, those two parts of our job, actually do always go together. I think they're actually partners. They're not actually at odds. Because as soon as my kid is upset, what I would say to them is, "Oh, you wanted to jump on the couch. It's not as much fun on the floor. Oh, you really wanted to watch another show. You didn't even want it this big. You wanted to watch it this big." It sounds crazy because you're like, wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling? They just kind of disobeyed. No, they're two different things. I'm doing my job and setting a boundary. They're actually doing their job and feeling their feelings. That's actually their job.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling is through feeling the feeling. So they're doing their job. Now I'm going to validate, and this is how kids learn emotion regulation. Boundaries, they feel, I validate, I hold the boundary over and over and over. So do kids crave rules? And I think one of the issues is that most parenting approaches have one or the other. And I think they're both very incomplete strategies. If you just lead with rules, right? I don't know who said it, definitely wasn't me. Like, what is it? Rules without relationship lead to rebellion? Yeah, that's what happens, right? So that's not good. But I see the stainage we've swung the other direction. It is also not a complete parenting strategy. When your kid's jumping on the couch to do nothing, if you think that's dangerous and just saying,

• 17:01Speaker 04

  "Oh, you really want to jump, jump, jump and such big feelings." Like, that's not what kids need. I think kids crave boundaries and they crave feeling seen and understood. Because as kids are growing up, like, I think the questions they're always asking parents, even though, of course, they never say this, is just, "Am I real and am I safe?" Every interaction, that's what they're asking us. The reason we have to validate their feelings when they're upset, even though they're so upset just that their string cheese broke, whatever it is, is feelings don't have markers like blood or like, they don't know. And so when we say, "Oh, you wanted your string cheese to be together," what we're really saying is the things you experience inside of you are real.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  But kids are also desperate to know, like, how far do things go? No one likes to feel boundaryless as a kid. That's terrifying, right? And so when we set a boundary, we actually say to a kid, like, "I will always protect you. Like, I won't let things get so far out of control." So I do think, I don't know if it's rules, but kids crave connection. And I think boundaries and kind of validation and empathy, they are the two forms of connection that kids, yeah, are really desperate for.

• 18:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  What about rewarding kids? And here, rather than start off by asking, you know, what are the best ways to reward kids in healthy ways? And I will ask that in a moment. How can we evaluate the notion of rewards or incentives through this lens of sturdiness, boundaries, and empathy?

• 18:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because, you know, I could imagine, you know, a reward that's outsized in comparison to what a kid did. You know, okay, great, you know, you took your plate to the kitchen sink after dinner. You know, you get $10,000, obviously out of scale, extreme example, but just by way of example. You know, screw up their reward mechanisms for life, if you ask me, that everything I know about rewarding neuroplasticity says that that would occur. But, but this idea that, you know, you can incentivize kids. If you turn off the TV now, then you definitely can watch tomorrow night. Whereas if you don't, you can't. So you're sort of merging reward and potential punishment.

• 19:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, how do we bound rewards? And how do we take into account that when we start adding rewards to scenarios that we're mixing and matching life experience for them? You know, okay, so now, doing what I'm told, do I always expect a reward? If the reward doesn't come next time, we know based on reward prediction error, we tend to be worse off emotionally than had we never received a reward in the first place. Again, pretty, pretty vast parameter space. But what are your thoughts on best ways to reward kids for standard good behavior?

• 20:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Versus achievement? Versus elimination of bad behavior?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 20:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  So three categories.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  I think you're asking a much bigger question. Or I'm gonna, I think you are. Which is like, what, why do parents think we need to reward kids? I think that's, why do we think we need to punish kids? And this is actually where everything I work on started from. Because the way I was trained to work with parents, I went to, you know, the best gold standard evidence-based program. And it was all about timeouts and punishments and rewards and stickers and ignoring and praise and... And honestly, during the training for the years after I kind of practiced this way, my, I feel like that, you know this better than I am, so I shouldn't even say this, but like that left part of my brain, like, logic and linearity, I was just like, this is amazing. Oh, my goodness, we're gonna get more of the good behavior and we're gonna not get

• 20:51Speaker 04

  the bad behavior. And, and I'd start teaching this to parents in my private practice. And there was this little thing in me, I don't even know, I was like, I don't know about this. I don't know. And it'd get louder and louder, to the point that in a session, I literally said to a parent in front of me, I was just like, telling them how to do a timeout, and I said, I'm sorry, I don't believe anything I've been telling you. That's literally what I said. Because I just, it was so loud, and it was obviously super awkward. But it led me to, I feel like from this first principles way, be like, there are a million assumptions that we have about raising kids. And I think about relationships. And if I just stripped them back, what do I be left with? And what would

• 21:31Speaker 04

  be a new building from there? And rewards and punishments, to me, are these assumptions that we have somehow converted from like, the fiction shelf of the library, in my mind, to like, the nonfiction shelf, as like, truths. And I kind of rail against all of them. So I think, I think the question, if that's okay to go in that direction, to me, is like, why do we think we need to reward kids? And is there actually a better system, both short term and long term? I'm incredibly long term greedy in my parenting approach. Because at the end of the day, 18 and up is where things really matter. Not really matter, I mean, they all matter. But I'd rather, you know, I want to help my kids become sturdy, resilient adults. But I'm short term greedy too, because I'm a realist.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  Like, I just can't deal with, like, all of these difficult moments. You get both, for sure, without rewards and punishments. So, I don't know, what might someone tell me they give a reward for? Do you want to use the, like, clearing the table, or example? Let's start that there. It kind of goes back to like believing kids are inherently good inside. I really think it goes back to that. If you really believe kids are inherently good inside, which by the way, when I strip back every assumption, the only thing I was left was that, literally, the only thing. And then I started to think, okay, so if they're good inside, why do they do so many annoying things like all the time? But that gave me a gap. And I feel like that is very exciting to have a gap. Like, why do people who are good inside do such bad things, right?

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Adults or kids? And to me, right, kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage those feelings, like, period. And we've often thought, therefore, when feelings, feelings without skills come out in behaviors. I think that's what bad behaviors are. Feelings or urges or something without a skill to manage them or without access to the skill, maybe in that moment, either way. And then we end up punishing behavior, but the behavior was just a sign of the lack of skill. So I can't imagine anyone thinking I could teach my kid to swim by punishing them for not swimming. Like, I think someone would say that was crazy. And but that's kind of how we raise kids.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  And then we think rewarding them is going to be effective, but it actually leads over and over to what you said. I've seen these parents over and over in my private practice. My 14-year-old literally won't pick up their clothes from the floor unless I give them $5. Like, how did I get here? And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a problem. But I saw how they got there. So let's take clearing, you know, their plate. Like, I know this is going to sound cheesy, but kids do have something in them where they want to feel like a purposeful, meaningful part of society. They do. Impact drives adults and it drives kids. It's not the same type of rewarding as playing Fortnite. It's a totally different system. But I think the question is like, why do we think we have to bribe kids or, you know, kind of trick them into doing things that are kind of like basic parts of human life?

• 24:28Speaker 04

  And so if we take that and my kid chronically isn't clearing their plate, I could say to them, look. Every time you clear a plate, I'm gonna give you a sticker. After five stickers, you're gonna get, I don't know, whatever it is. To me, like a much more just effective way is I'd say to my kid, hey, I know you know, like, clearing a plate is just one way of being part of this family and taking care of stuff. I know you know that. We're on the same team. I say that phrase, "We're on the same team." Right, we are. Something's getting in your way of remembering. I'm gonna assume, I like the most generous interpretation. That, to me, allows you to separate someone's bad behavior from their good identity. Then I'm gonna say, "What would help you remember?" We literally did this with my son, who always had his towel on the floor. And I was just like, "I bet he just doesn't remember. He literally doesn't see it."

• 25:12Speaker 04

  And we talked about it, and he's like, we talked about him putting a Post-it, literally, something simple, like a Post-it on my door that just says, "Pick up my towel." He wrote it in his own handwriting, right, trying to facilitate him, like, solving his own problems. And now he has a much higher rate of picking up his towel. Like, I guess I could've said, "Every time you pick up your towel, you'll, I don't know, get a dollar," or whatever it is. But again, it makes me think, I'm not building the generalizable skill that way. I'm just kind of offering something at the end, which sets me on this kind of awful cycle that I think kind of misses the point.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped moving? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 26:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love the idea that kids want purpose. And am I correct in wondering if that goes back to this "am I real?" component of the "am I real, am I safe?"

• 26:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, one way that we know we are real is our ability to... In part, change on the world around us. I don't want to get too abstract here, but you know, as a neuroscientist, I've often sat back and reflected like, all the emotions we feel, like, no one sees that or knows that.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 26:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Unless we say something, we write something, we sing something, we shout something, you know, all the forms of expression, just like, none of our, um, our dreams, our creative insights or wishes, um, exist, except inside us unless we transmute them into something in the real world. So there does seem to be something about having this nervous system from a time we're really young, like, it's seeing our effect on the world that, that really makes us real and on others. And, um, I love the idea that, well, and I must say, I absolutely believe in my heart, and I just feel it as a feeling, that kids are inherently good inside. Like, I just, I can't imagine any other version of that, but does that mean that there are people out there who believe that kids are inherently bad, or, or at least not good?

• 27:27Speaker 04

  I don't-

• 27:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, like, how could that be? Uh, but then again, maybe I'm just naive.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  I don't know if anyone consciously believes that, but when I go back to that system I was first trained in, rewards and punishments, like, it feels like a system of behavioral control. And to me, like, I've always thought about control and trust as opposites. So, I only control what I don't trust. So, nobody said to me in that program, "By the way, Becky, everything you're learning here, we believe kids are bad inside, and so we do this thing." But, well, if I don't trust my kid, and if I don't trust they inherently have the things in them to do good, by the way, that's not gonna happen naturally. That's why we have a big job as a parent to coach our kids, to bring that out, to set boundaries when they can't do it, and so many other things. But, I don't believe anyone would say, "Yeah, it's because they're bad inside."

• 28:17Speaker 04

  But there is a nature where you're constantly interacting with your kid from that other system, looking at them, like, "I don't trust you. I don't trust you, and when you do bad things, I cannot hold on to the fact that you have a good identity. That's why I'm giving you a punishment. That's why I'm sending you away to your room." And so, if I'm reflecting back to you constantly, that you are just your latest behavior, that I don't trust you, that I kind of have to bribe you to do very basic human things, well, our kids form their identity- From our reflection of them. And so then we're, this is what really compelled all of this. I'm like, we're raising generation after generation of kid, kind of saying to them like, you're kind of a bad, untrustworthy kid.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  And then we wonder why we have such high rates of like massive mental health problems. Well, like I, there's some linearity there.

• 29:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm curious about this notion of impingement. I've heard about this, you know, this idea that, you know, when we're young, we're forging life, deciding, you know, do I like the way this tastes or not tastes, you know? By the way, I still hate anchovies. I don't need to be asked again to know the answer. But when you're young, you know, we're encouraged to do things like eat your broccoli, taste the anchovy. And some parents, it seems, are very comfortable with the idea of allowing their children to have their feelings and their wishes. Their, their, as I always say, the nervous system seems to be divided into yum yucks and meh, mez. I guess the plural would be meh, z. Yum yucks and mez. I mean, it's more complicated than that. But like with people, we're either like, yeah, I really like them, or no, something's

• 29:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  off there, like meh, you know? So it's not that much more nuanced than that. The brain's got to make decisions afterward, after all. Excuse me. So, you know, kids have their yums, yucks and mez. And then we've got our, our ideas about what they need to do in order to progress through life, often inherited from our parents and hopefully modified by the wonderful work that you're doing and writing about and in your, your program that we're talking about here. But, you know, how much space should we allow for kids to be unimpinged? Like, like you don't want to eat, you don't want to eat what we're eating for dinner? Like, okay, I'm not going to cook you an entire

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 30:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  new dinner, but then I guess like, you might go to bed hungry. Sounds harsh, right? But the other version is, okay, what would you like for dinner? Well, I prefer, let's say they pick a healthy option. They prefer pasta, not chicken. Okay, we won't do the ice cream chicken, you know, thing. Do we do it? Right? Like, how much impingement? I don't want to watch a movie with the family. I don't want to play in my room. You know, at some level, you know, I've heard it both ways. That impingement is needed for safety and life progression. But there's times when it's, uh, it's more subtle than that. It's not about safety and life progression. It's not about going to school or not going to school, homework or no homework. It's about like, do you want to come with us to the park?

• 31:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  You want to play at home in your room? How often should we impinge? Um, how do we know? Um, this is, this is kind of the, the tricky, the tricky areas of parenting that I think, um, because it doesn't fall into the extremes.

• 31:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love this question. That's a word I don't often hear, actually. What impingement, like, can you act like what, like?

• 31:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like impinging on, yeah, like impinging on the child's inherent natural desires or aversion to things.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  Got it. Okay.

• 31:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, you say, hey, we're going over so and so's house. And they say, you know, I don't like their kids. And you go, well, listen, you gotta learn to play with other kids. And you go, no, I don't like their kids. And you say, did something happen? And so we're not talking about a dangerous situation. Really like, no, I don't like them. I just really want to just stay home.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a great.

• 32:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  That, that, so are we going to impinge on their? I mean, because we're teaching them, either way, we're teaching them something. You gotta do stuff you don't want to do, even if you don't like it.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  And we're here again, we're ruling out the possibility that there's something unsafe about the environment, psychologically or physically unsafe. Or, but at the same time, we're teaching them, um, hey, you're, I see you, I hear you, but you know, your desires might not be right. There, there's actually a kind of, like a tacit message of the way you feel might not be the best gauge of what's best for you, which sends a complicated message to a kid.

• 32:37Speaker 04

  Totally. So this is again, where I think at Good Inside, like, family jobs are so useful. Family jobs to me, when I used to meet with parents and like, they'd describe a situation, I feel like 90% of the time, that's where I'd start. Because then that flows from there. It's like a framework. So what is my job? I'm the one who sets boundaries. Like, I am the one who makes key family decisions. Obviously, as our kids get older, they should be making some decisions too. No one likes to feel controlled, but key decisions. And my job is to validate my kid's experience. This is actually complicated because, again, over and over, we think that validating my kid's experience means they're going to dictate a decision. My boundaries don't dictate my kid's feelings, and my kid's feelings should not dictate my boundaries. They're just two equal things. So this is a great example.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  My kid's just like, you know, I don't like playing with those kids. And can I just stay home with, let's just say grandma was home. Can I just stay home? And I'm like, I just think it's important to go as a family, but my kid doesn't want to go. There's nothing dangerous. Okay. To me, this is that exact way of putting family jobs into action. Sweetie, and to me, this phrase, I wish every parent could say this to their kid. I believe you. If you want to make a kid feel real and confident for life, confidence comes from the experience of being believed, because that's how you, for me, confidence is self-trust. It's not feeling good about yourself. It's self-trust. I really do know the way I feel. So let's say I say to my son in that situation, it's, I believe you. I'd start with, I believe you. Look, I, I know you want to play football all day, and the kid around your age hates football.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Like, that would probably be lowest on your list of types of kids you'd want to hang out with for the afternoon. I totally believe you. And in this family, we know that sometimes we have to do things we don't love to do. We do that for a family experience. I say this to my kid all the time. You know, also, just to end up being a good adult, you just have to end up practicing as a kid, doing things you don't want to do, things that are boring, things that aren't your preference. So, you know, you notch in your belt for that. So you don't have to thank me. And also, I know you have it in you to do your best, to be polite and engaged. Like, I just, I know you're a good kid, and this isn't what you want, and I know we're going to get through it. Now, if it's really hard, maybe young, hey, let's create a sign.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Like, can you look at me and go? When you feel like you're kind of at this and then me and you, we're gonna go to the bathroom. I'm gonna give you a hug and right, I'm gonna say, I know this isn't what you want. And when we get home, we could watch that football game, whatever it was, right? Because what we often do is we leave ourselves with two choices with kids. We either say, fine, stay home. Their feelings actually just dictated the decision. That's not helpful for them. I don't want my kid to learn in life. When I don't want to do something, people twist and turn to make that thing not happen. Like, that's disturbing for adulthood expectations. But then we do the other thing, which is like, you are so selfish. Just because you don't have a friend your age doesn't mean that you can't come with us.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  So we either let their feelings dictate, or we think our boundaries kind of give us the right to be mad at our kid, right? Like, to do both is so important. And so that's where I think, to me, when I hear impingement, like, I actually think that's, that is the exact space where you have the most bang for your buck as a parent. Like, it's not enjoyable. And again, if I have my beautiful intervention with my son, do not think my kid will look at me and say, I love how you explained that. That was so beautiful. No, he's gonna roll his eyes. My job is not to take the bait, because I'm an adult, and to also hold hope. I think that's really important, this concept of, I'm validating my kid's feelings where they are today, but I need to be the one to hold hope that they can cope with it.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  If I can't name to my kid, I know you're gonna get through it, they're not gonna be able to see that kind of next, more mature version of themselves. And I actually think it's the same as your best boss. You know, it's like, I know you don't want to go on this trip. I don't, whatever it is, I know this presentation topic isn't the one you would have chosen. And there were 10 things, and this was literally number 10. I totally get that, and it stinks, and I'm not taking anything away from that. And this is the thing I need you to do. And I know something about you, like, when you put your mind to something, you always do a great job. And like, it's probably not gonna be enjoyable, but I do know you're gonna do a great job on this. Like, that's like the boss you want.

• 36:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing. Are you adopting children, by the way? Because I'm, I actually, I finished college. Actually, I actually.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  You I consider, Andrew. You, adult children.

• 37:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  What I'm hearing is don't dictate their behavior with, and I'm gonna underline in bold dictate, don't dictate their behavior. You're going to do this because I said so. That's dictatorship. But at the same time, don't quash the emotion behind the resistance. Can acknowledge it, make them feel real. I believe you. I love this phrase. Amazing. And I love your definition of confidence. If people didn't hear that, we're definitely gonna repeat it again and we're gonna, we're gonna etch it into your neural circuitry because I love that. It's, it's, it's a self-trust.

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 37:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  And this notion of giving hope. You're giving them an incentive that's based on a reward that's actually good for them, that they can translate to other situations as well.

• 37:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Can I double click on reward?

• 38:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Please.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  You know what made me think? I didn't think until you said that. Like, I think in a situation, we'd be tempted to say like, and if you go and you're polite, I'll give you 20 extra minutes of Roblox, right? That's like, and first of all, let me just say something like, whatever I say to you, like for listeners, like, it's not like I do this stuff all the time with my actual kids. I'm the first one sometimes to be like, here's your thing I have to dangle.

• 38:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  We'll provide a little section in the comment section on YouTube where your kids can, no, I'm just kidding.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Your kids are forbidden. No, oh, wait, that's wait, that's dictating. We understand why you, I believe that you would want to comment, but we're gonna trust, we're gonna let you know why it's, it's good for you if you don't. Anyway, I'll practice this on someone else's kids.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  But the reward, like, the, when your kid ends up seeing themselves capable of doing something they didn't previously think they could do, you know better than me, like, I feel like that is like one of the best rewards, even if it's getting through a social situation, or I think about this a lot with, you know, my little kid is, I don't know, like struggling with a puzzle or something, and I could just do it for them, or if I help them kind of regulate, oh, this is a hard puzzle, and you can take a break. I, I just know you're gonna figure it out today. I just know it. And then because of that, they get there. That feels in your body, like that is the best kind of reward.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  And it's the type of reward that works for kids in adulthood. When they're in a job, we want them to be motivated by the feeling they're gonna have of pride. Not be saying, hey, I finished my thing early. Do I get a bonus to their boss? Like, that's not gonna play out as well.

• 39:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. I, um, I'm just pausing and shaking my head only because I love it so much. Um, and I just wanna make sure that I don't quickly move to the next question without drilling down even deeper into some of these concepts.

• 39:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  I believe you as the feedback or response that can instill real confidence over time. Not to get too nuanced here, but how is it different? Because I, I sense it is different than, I hear you. I hear you, but you're gonna do this anyway.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or, I hear you, but listen, in this family, da, da, da, da.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  I believe you, the word believe is powerful. And I believe there's real power in specific words, as is, you know, like, for instance, sturdiness. Again, such a, such a powerful and underused word. I believe you. What do you, you're a psychologist. What, what do you think we're hearing when somebody says, I believe you? That's different than, I hear you.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  I haven't listed these out, but I think we all have these, like, core needs as humans. And I think being believed is one of them because it's, it's someone else kind of saying, you're real. That's what, I, I might not feel what you're feeling, but that thing that feels strong to you that nobody can see or measure is real. And when I think about the most confident people, like, I think about this girl who I went to Duke with, and she was just brilliant, like, so smart. And we were in this seminar. It was one of these small classes with this professor was like talking about stuff. And like, I, for once, I was like, I have no idea what this person's talking about. But like, I was like, no one else was stopping.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  And this girl raised her hand and she said, I'm sorry if everyone else is annoying. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like, is there any, because I usually do. And like, is there any way you could say that in a different way?

• 41:30Speaker 04

  That is like to me, the utmost version of confidence. That she believed her own experience of confusion was real confusion. She didn't think it was a sign she was stupid. She believed it. She believed herself. That is so confident. And I think when someone says, "I hear you," it's like a version of listening. There's many worse phrases. No damage is done. When we follow anything but "but," we tend to invalidate. So that's not good anyway. "I believe you, but" is also not gonna... But there's a million examples of this to me that build confidence. And I actually think there's so many situations with kids where they say situations and we worry, "Oh, they have low confidence." And then we intervene to, quote, "make them feel better,"

• 42:15Speaker 04

  which actually is the thing that lowers their confidence. Because it's like, we say to them, "I don't believe you." You're not really feeling the way you feel. Where "I believe you" is the exact opposite. So like, I like to give examples just because it makes it concrete. Like, my kid will come home and say, um, I don't know. "I was picked last for, you know, for dodgeball today." "I was picked last in something." And they're clearly very, very sad, right? And we want to say to them, like, "It's no big deal." Or, "Everyone's picked last sometimes." Or, "But remember yesterday? You told me you were picked first for basketball." And we think like, I need to build up my kid's confidence. Those are confidence, I won't say destroying, just reducing interventions.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  Because a kid is kind of coming to a parent, basically saying, "I'm very, very upset that I was picked last." And we're saying to a kid, "No, you weren't." And they're like, "But I am." And what they learn is, and this is really terrifying to me, is other people are better feelers of my feelings than I am.

• 43:22Speaker 04

  And that's like a million really scary interpersonal, I think, relationship, you know, kind of consequences later down, later down in life. But when a kid says, you know, I was picked last and nobody even wants me and they all think I'm the worst athlete, whatever kids say, to sit and say some version of like, I'm so glad we're talking about this and I could tell that was a really hard gym class and sweetie, like, I, I believe you. You will watch your kid. It is crazy to me what parents tell me happen when they say those words to their kids. They're like, it also just like literally diffused everything and they were like, ready to move on, like, they are just trying to tell you probably like, I was feeling something. It was a lot. It was confusing, right? Our feelings are always hardest when we're alone in them.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  So I was alone in it and I bring it to you. When someone says, I believe you, not only are they giving you that core need, they're also just like, they're like sitting down with you in it and that's, that makes everything better. And then meanwhile, what a kid feels like when we say, I believe you to a hard experience or hard feeling is they're like, the feelings that overwhelm me, don't overwhelm my parents. They can tolerate it. They're not scared of me kind of being a loser in gym class one day. And if my parent likes me, when I have that feeling, like I can start to like myself when I have that feeling.

• 44:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's so great because it sounds like it accomplishes both things. It makes kids feel real and safe.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Real and safe. And, you know, I can't help but ask, say, because, you know, how we started off today was that this isn't just about parent child relationships, but in friendships, in romantic relationships, in coworker relationships, that the words, I believe you, I have to presume based on everything I'm hearing now and feeling inside about it. That it's equally effective.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  Huge. You know, years ago, I was on like a podcast early on and to me, there are these three lines that kind of all go together when kids are, anyone's upset and it's kind of like, you start, and to me, it's like a beautiful invitation to have that conversation just to say to someone, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. Right? And then kind of, I believe you, tell me more. And my husband, when he heard it was like, you know, you could like say those words to me sometimes. Like, I would like that because, and I think about the workplace too. Like you have someone come in, they're upset about, I don't know, I got staffed on this, or I'm not getting a promotion and I, I thought I was, like just diffuse it with just, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. Yeah, I've been working nonstop for, and just if you say to them, like, I, I believe you. Cause we usually don't say to someone, I don't believe you. But what we'll say is we, we

• 46:02Speaker 04

  defend ourselves in that moment. And the way the other person receives it is as if we're saying, I don't believe the intensity of the experience you're having. And when you do lead with, I believe you. Same thing in a partnership, you know, like every time I ask you to do something, you get really hot and bothered. Like, it doesn't even mean you agree. You're kind of just believing, like, I, like, I believe you, like, tell me more. Or, right, I believe you that that really upset you. And like, I'm obviously, I have a whole nother story in my head, but like, I hear what you're saying and, and I know there's something there and I believe it enough to like, be open to hearing more about it. I don't know. That's like, what's best, that's what, that's what we all want in our, in our partnerships.

• 46:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I'm wide eyed. I mean, what a beautiful acknowledgement that, as you pointed out, is not agreeing to accept someone else's reality to the extent that you're going to dismantle the, the, you know, the order of the world, or whatever it is. But it's such an opening as opposed to a closing. And as you said, it's non-defended, but it's also boundaried. I mean, there's just so many things about it that feel good, seem good, and clearly are good. You know, I don't want to go down the, the tragic rabbit hole of trauma, but previous guest on this podcast, you know, has defined, we should probably define trauma, just because it gets thrown around a lot. Trauma, an event or set of

• 47:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  circumstances that fundamentally changed the way that the brain and nervous system works so that. There's a maladaptive response going forward. It's not every bad thing that happens.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 47:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  But there are micro traumas, sometimes called small T,

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 47:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  or macro traumas, a big T, again, could be multi-event or single event. But years ago, a different psychologist psychiatrist, who's an adolescent psychiatrist at Stanford, said something in a seminar that just really struck me, which was that at its core, trauma is really about confusion over who's responsible. And here, we're not just talking about the more salient examples of like sexual assault, those two, of course. But, you know, like if we get screamed at, or we observe something like third-person trauma, like the logical stance is, well, okay, that was them, not me. But when this happens, especially when we're young,

• 48:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  the nervous system, the brain somehow interprets this as, like, I was there, I had a role in it just by being there. So like, what was my role? And somehow, the emotional response becomes one of responsibility, even if we know, like, they're clearly the one that initiated this. And so, the reason I'm bringing this up in this context is that it's almost like that lack of belief in self somehow gets rooted in, and then it all feels confusing, and then we don't feel safe.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 48:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because it's a confusion about responsibility. Again, going back to this, these words.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  Can we go down that rabbit hole for a second?

• 49:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Please, please. That's why I raised it.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  I think that

• 49:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  I want your thoughts, not mine.

• 49:05Speaker 04

  I always think trauma is actually not events. It's the way an event gets processed. And I love Gabor Maté's definition of trauma. It's not what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you. Right? So to me, there's an inherent relationality there, where events that get processed, not any event, events with high emotionality, let's say, that get processed in aloneness, become traumatic. And I think that's where it gets linked to responsibility. So this is actually what my TED Talk was about, and why repair is so important. Who said this? Ronald Fairburn, years ago. That for kids, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. I think it explains almost everything about

• 49:49Speaker 04

  child development, right there. Going back to goodness, also. Your parent just screamed at you. And by the way, your parent, I scream at my kids. Everyone's going to scream at their kids. It's going to happen. Okay, that's just the event. The event's not going to have the impact. What is happening for a kid? Well, we know kids are oriented by attachment. They literally need us to survive. Like, they could not survive on their own. And so what do you do when the person you're dependent on for safety becomes the source of danger and threat? That's very confusing for a child in that moment. So they're super, hyper aroused. They're in this state of, you know, terror. And then usually after, in my house too, I just yell at my kid. They're kind of alone in their room. I'm alone in the kitchen or wherever. Meanwhile, spinning, because I'm such a bad parent, like, I'm probably, you know,

• 50:34Speaker 04

  but meanwhile, because I'm so lost in my own guilt, I might not be going to my kid. And so what happens for my kid if I don't repair after I scream at them or one of these events? Right? Well, a kid cannot say to themselves, "My parent just had a bad day." Then the badness is in my parent. My leader, I'm young now, right? Like, I don't understand nuance. My leader can't be bad, so I must take on the badness. At least then I have control. So kids, after they're kind of yelled at, in the absence of repair, they really only have two options for how to regulate and feel safe again. They can self-blame. "It's all my fault." Which is why I feel like most adults, when they have a hard time, they tell themselves, like, "It's my fault.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  I'm not good enough." It's like the legacy of that story from childhood. Or they use self-doubt. "Maybe that didn't happen. Maybe I overreacted. Maybe I can't trust myself." Again, it leads to adults who basically say, like, "Did I overreact?" Or, "Let me call five friends. Let me see if they think what my boyfriend did was a big deal." Because they can't trust themselves. And so trauma, what I want every parent to know is they'll say, "I left my kid alone and I didn't pick them up at the soccer field. Is that going to traumatize them?" And they'll say, "Well, that's just the event. Like, did you say to them, 'Hey, that probably felt scary? What was that like? Oh, you're right. Like, you were alone.'" Now, all of a sudden, next to the event that was scary is my story and my connection. It got processed in a safe connection.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  It didn't get processed in aloneness. And that's a massive, massive difference.

• 52:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  In this scenario you are describing, the parent who yelled goes to the child. Having been that child, and perhaps also having been that parent, how do we deal with the fact that sometimes, you know, we don't want to be around the person that yelled at us. It hurts to receive the care. There's a textured landscape as opposed to a smooth landscape there. Like, okay, now you're ready for everything to be peaceful. I'm still with my feelings. I guess that's where the "I believe you" comes in. And that's where the sorting it through process begins.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I think it's like, what version of a parent comes back? To me, the first thing we have to do in a repair process is actually repair with ourselves as a parent. Really. Because if you haven't repaired with yourself, which to me is kind of separating your identity again from your behavior, like, okay, Becky, I'll use myself as an example, I'm a good parent who just screamed at her son. Like, I did not mess up forever. And you see, when you try to repair it yourself, those two things get collapsed. I'm like, I messed him up forever. I'm a monster. Wait, like, I'm a good parent who did something I'm not proud of. You can't repair with someone until you've repaired with yourself. They feel it from you. They actually, it usually is like, then you're asking for them. I'll be like, it's okay, right? Like, you forgive me, right? It's not a repair. That's like

• 53:31Speaker 04

  using your child to try to do something we just have to do on our own or with other adults. But if I've repaired with myself, I'm gonna show up in a different way. Might I have a feisty kid? I might. It's like, I don't care. It's not better. That's okay. I'm not repairing to get something from my child. I'm repairing to give an experience to them. So, we can also get creative. You know, your kid is older, you text them, you slip a door under the note. You say, okay, I just have to say this one thing. To me, this line really matters to like snatch that self-blame out of a kid's body. It's just, like, I'm sorry I yelled. It's never your fault when I yell. And it's not. And people who argue like our ability to regulate our emotions predated our child's existence like that, you know, like they had, they had something,

• 54:16Speaker 04

  they did something and we felt frustrated. But that's very different than yelling, right? And saying that to your kid is so important. Meanwhile, the next day you might say, by the way, let's really figure out how to get out the door in a smoother way, you know, you could work on whatever they need to work on. But the reason I think most kids end up rejecting parents' apologies is it's not really a repair. We're asking our kid for permission to be okay again. Or a repair sounds like, hey, I'm sorry I yelled, but you know, like if you just got ready in time, that wouldn't have happened. Or we say, I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sorry you felt that way. Those are not like, none of those are actually repairs. And if that's what a kid's been used to, they're going to keep a parent more at bay.

• 55:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  So is it safe to say that we can always come back to making the kid feel real and safe? I believe you is a great place to start. And the reason I keep coming back to these, these simple things is that, simple but very, very potent, by the way, is that in the real world landscape of parenting, family and life, things are happening really fast and it's very dynamic and it's multifaceted. I mean, we haven't even talked yet about how, when there's two parents, like the one that didn't yell. When there's multiple siblings, when, I mean, there's the human dynamics on a one in the, in an other, other landscape is, is hard enough. And then when you start introducing the real world landscape,

• 55:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  things happen fast. So having something that people can reach to really quickly, what I call in the landscape of stress modulation, which is something that I'm more familiar with from my lab's work is, you know, real time tools.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 55:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Real time tools. Like, we're all at our best after meditation, vacation, massage and a good night's sleep. But what about real time tools when everything's, everything's hectic? So what does a really good apology look like?

• 56:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  In the real world.

• 56:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um, because a really good apology in the ideal world of Instagram.

• 56:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is, yeah, I believe you. I'm so sorry with no buts, no this and that. But a real apology sometimes is as you're boarding a plane. Or when there's a bunch of other things that are going on and you haven't even dealt with those yet. Or when you're on your way to an event or you, yeah, okay, so you get it. Uh, what does a really good? Internal landscape for apology look like? Like, how can we touch into where we need to be? And then what are the words that even if we have to try again later and again and again later with that person? In this case, kid, but person more generally.

• 56:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's the like go to solid apology?

• 56:58Speaker 04

  Great. So, yeah, I think you're never gonna go wrong saying, I believe you to your kid. Like, obviously not if you say it randomly, but if they're really upset, you yelled at me. I believe you, like, if that's all you can remember, you're crushing it. I think a realistic repair. You have to do something for yourself. And like, to me, it can be a very simple mantra. Like, to me, I'm a good parent who is having a hard time is the one I use, honestly. Over and over, just, and after I yell at my kid before, I'll like go to the bathroom sometimes and I'll say that to myself. Becky, like, I'm a good parent having a hard time. And I'll kind of say it as many times as I need until I really do feel something like shift a little in my body. It just, because again, I think that phrase separates what I did from who I am. Right?

• 57:43Speaker 04

  And then to me, a realistic apology, it could be super simple. If you remember nothing else, it could just be like, I'm sorry I yelled. That's, that's great. If you wanna, if you're like, I'm feeling it, Becky, give me that next step, you know? I'm sorry I yelled. Just like you, I'm working on managing my emotions and. You know, next time, even when I'm frustrated, I'm gonna try to stay calm. Something about the next time, you know, if you want to throw in that it's not your fault, kids, it seems an odd thing because parents like, why do kids assume it's their fault? It is their default position. And so it's never a bad thing to throw in. But honestly, just simply, hey, I'm sorry I yelled.

• 58:27Speaker 04

  That actually gives them that realness because without saying anything more, you're saying that thing you think happened did happen. So that's powerful.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze in there. That's what.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only if it is October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.

• 59:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  How do you suggest parents deal with retorts and rudeness? And again, let's extend this to all relationships. So you get in your best mindset. And by the way, I love this I am thing. Two of the most important words in any language, when translated to other languages. I am blank, I am a good this, or I am whatever role, identity is key to the brain. We know this. You go in and you say, I'm really sorry. I struggle to regulate my emotions.

• 59:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  I believe that you're really upset.

• 59:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the kid says, I hate you.

• 59:52Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 59:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Now, earlier you said that good boundaries are about not expecting a change in behavior from someone else. They're about our own boundaries. So.

• 1:00:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or maybe the "I hate you" comes from, you know, listen, we're not gonna go to so-and-so's house for a playdate today.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Great example. "I hate you."

• 1:00:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  "I hate you." So, is there ever a case for no response?

• 1:00:15Speaker 04

  I mean, to me, the most underutilized parenting strategy is doing nothing. Literally. It's one of my most used strategies, cuz, and there's, there's, there's like really good reason for it, especially in this situation. So, I always, to me, like, I always say we have to understand before we intervene. So, I know every parent's like, "What do you do in that situation?" But, it's like trying, like, it's like trying to fix someone's tennis swing before you, like, look at their tennis swing, right? Like, what, there could be a lot of problems. So, you know, why is a kid saying "I hate you"? And I would ask every parent to just keep this in mind. It's a tool, and you can't use it in real time. Eventually, you can, but we have to say it at, like, the end of the night. When my kid said "I hate you," what is my most generous interpretation of why he would

• 1:01:00Speaker 04

  say that to me? And if you're like any human, me included, by the way, like, your least generous interpretation is immediate. You're like, "Because he's a sociopath." Like, that's what we say all the time. We're like, "Wow." Or, "Because he's like a horrible kid, or 'cause he's spoiled, or 'cause he's nasty." It comes easily. So, that's fine. But, what is my most generous interpretation? And when I don't know, I'll push myself to say, "Okay, well, like, I was in a situation with my husband. What would lead me to say that? All right, what would lead you to say that to someone?"

• 1:01:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  That I hate them?

• 1:01:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, they, like, say something to you, like, "Hey, Andrew, we're not gonna be able to, you know, do this dinner."

• 1:01:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  It would have to be some sort of deep betrayal of trust. And, and when I, and I have to acknowledge that if I said that to somebody that I really care about or love, if, as I'm saying "I hate you," what I'm really saying is, "I love you so much, and that hurts unbelievably, at such an unbelievable intensity that what's coming out of my mouth is 'I hate you.'" Because if you, because if you didn't love them...

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:01:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  It would have null effect. It would be a meh. It would be, it would be, it would be a meh, but instead, it's a "Ugh." It hurts. So, we, somehow, there's a neural circuit in there that goes, you know, "I, whatever, insert expletive, hate you."

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:02:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  But what you're really saying is, "I love you so much."

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  And as a consequence, that thing you did or said hurts so much.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  That's right. And so, I think that's, like, exactly what's going on for a kid. Or like, to me, my most generous interpretation, a simple way is, my kid, when I said we couldn't go to this friend's house that he thought we were going to, his friend, he was gonna sleep over. He had like, so built it up in his mind, he'd like, probably like kids do, like, they have this whole image, oh, and then we're gonna do this and this, and like, the letdown was so intense, and again, I go back to, kids have all the feelings we have, and they're born with none of the skills, so it takes a lot of, it takes like, a pretty well-developed skill to be really disappointed, by the way, and surprised, right? In the moment, and like, manage it in like, a mature way.

• 1:03:04Speaker 04

  I, I, I'm sure we both know adults who aren't really capable of doing that, right? So the fact that my seven-year-old is doing that, so if I think about it that way, we latch on to our kids' words as if they're the truth, they're not the truth. It's not to say they don't matter, but they're not the truth. The truth is whatever world is under the words, like, I'm disappointed and I don't know how to manage that. So if I think about the outcome, like, what would, what do I want to be? What I would love in that situation? Because the truth is, when I say to my kid, "Sorry, we can't go to Bobby's house", I wouldn't even want, it's not normal for my kid to be like, "Oh, no problem", because like, I would, I'm just picturing my 25-year-old, like, trying to get a job and being like, "Mom, oh, I didn't get it", and then he's like, "No problem", I'm like, "That's kind of weird, like, really? Like, that's weird, like, I'd want you to be disappointed."

• 1:03:50Speaker 04

  And so, what I want my kid to be able to do is to be like, I don't know, what's the best it gets? Like, "Oh, man, I was really looking forward to that." That's like, ultimate maturity. So how do I get from "I hate you" to "Oh, man, I was really, like, you know, looking forward to that"? The whole, all the things we want to do, just like, don't even make sense, like, sending my kid to their room, saying like, "You're such a nasty kid, I've never seen any of your friends say that to their parents", and I'm good at acting these things out, because of course, I say these things too. But all I'm doing is basically telling my kid the version of themselves I don't want them to be. So now I'm further away from that outcome, just not effective. My kid obviously literally needs to learn some of those skills and practice them. We don't think about simulations with kids nearly enough.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  We know that in sports. People practice all the time. We don't do that with emotion regulation. So what do I do in the moment? I think the best question here is, what do I do outside the moment to help my kid build the skills? So they actually have more of a skill the next time that moment comes. Still, I'm a pragmatist. What do I do in the moment? I hate you. I probably would do nothing first. When someone is rude to you and they say something nasty, I don't know. I just like, this is one, this is my son. This is me. My son just hurled, I hate you. It's like sitting between us. When we say back to them, like, you know, I hate you or like, go to your room. We take all the energy from what they said and we just like, throw it. And then like, we have this ping pong match. When you do nothing, I always picture if this is like, I hate you, it just sits between us.

• 1:05:20Speaker 04

  My kid has a much higher chance of kind of re-owning what they just said because I'm just kind of sturdy in that moment, because I didn't just take it from them and say something to them, which just gives them the opportunity to like, take what I said and have no responsibility for the first thing they said. It's always true in adults. When someone says to you like, something nasty, if you actually just stay there, they're kind of like, oh shoot, like, I shouldn't have said that. Because like, it's, it's right there. So I'd probably say nothing. Now, a couple, I don't know if I'd really do that, but I'd want to do that. Let me be clear. Something else you can say in that moment, which takes a lot of presence, so it's not going to happen right away, is just something like, whoa, like, clearly you're disappointed. I get that.

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  I believe you and I know there's another way you can say that to me. That's actually right back to family jobs. I'm validating and I'm setting kind of a boundary in some ways. Like, I know, maybe there's a little hope there too. Like, I know there's another way. If my kid keeps saying, I hate you, I hate you, you're the worst, you're the worst. I'm gonna say, listen, I love you, you're a good kid, you're having a hard time. I really won't stay in your room while you keep saying this to me. And part of that is because it's not good for you either. Like, this isn't a good dynamic. I'm gonna step outside, I'm gonna come back, and we can talk about it when we're both in a place where we can be a little more respectful or something like that, right? You don't have to be a punching bag. But at least now, I'm helping my kid see that he is having a feeling under these words.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  If I can't differentiate the feeling from the behavior, how can I expect my kid to ever learn to differentiate those two? Which is how my kid can actually get to a more regulated place.

• 1:07:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've sometimes wondered whether or not parents are either afraid of or not afraid enough of their kids.

• 1:07:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've known some parents that are afraid of their kids because and perhaps as a consequence, who knows what the chicken egg is there? All we know is the parent was alive first. The kids learn to control their parents through, not necessarily emotional outbursts, but the threat of emotional outbursts. I've seen this again and again, and it's a pretty wild thing to observe. And of course, as an observer, it's far easier than when you're in it. But this idea like, whoa, like they're like a pot ready to boil over. You know, like they're gonna pop. And I've seen this in teachers in the classroom.

• 1:07:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've seen this in so many venues where whether or not the child understands that they're somehow controlling the situation or not, that there's just an inherent fear of what could happen. And then I think kids feel a certain power, but they don't feel safe, right? I mean, how could they? Right, they're children.

• 1:08:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:08:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  For the parents out there that are afraid of their kids' potential responses and/or how bad their kid quote unquote might turn out if they were to really lay down the law. Here I'm using kind of old school language. But listen, I grew up, you know, I'm 48 years old, so you know, I, yeah, I mean, my parents, you know, didn't physically abuse us, but there might have been a spanking every once in a while, or I don't know what the rule is nowadays, or the, or the, the standard out there, you know, I think, I won't say which, but I might have taken a smack here or there, but not many. And it, there was also a lot of love. But clearly, and here I'm not, I'm not supporting the use of corporal punishment, I want to be very clear.

• 1:09:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  But, you know, kids can be tough. And then also, you know, it wasn't long into my high school years when I was physically larger than both my parents. I never used that to intimidate them, but I have to imagine when your kid is larger than you, if you were already psychologically afraid of them, now you, it's clear to both of you that the, the tables have turned.

• 1:09:20Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:09:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right? I'm talking about the, the unconscious, semi-conscious aspects of this. I'm not talking about who can, you know, obviously, physical fights, there's not something I ever want to see or participate in a, in a household.

• 1:09:31Speaker 04

  So this, this is an amazing topic, like walking on eggshells. This is right? And this is terrifying to a kid. Because again, if a kid is trying to figure out, like, am I real and am I safe? Kids do experience feelings in such an intense way, because they don't have any of those skills and they're so surprising and they're so visceral, that it is scary to them. And there are, kind of especially these groups of kids, I call them deeply feeling kids, that do feel things more intensely. And they do have more of these big, massive tantrums, they even look animalistic often during, they try to scratch you, they'll hiss during them, they'll growl.

• 1:10:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Hiss, really?

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:10:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  There was a, I grew up with some biters.

• 1:10:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Kids that bite.

• 1:10:14Speaker 04

  Yes, that's, because again, those are just feelings, literally uncontained, that are exploding out. And where do they explode out? Through your extremities. So they, that's really what it is. And so, what will happen, and this is this really unfortunate day on some of the, my favorite things to help people turn around, is then kids kind of sense from a parent, like, I really am as toxic as I worried I was. Right? And again, if we go back to that pilot thing, like I think about a pilot who's like, we have to make an emergency landing. We're not going to be able to go to LA and we're all going to land in Cleveland, whatever it is. I picture the passenger who's like, "You are going to take us to LA." And the pilot's like, "Okay, okay."

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  Can you imagine? You're like, it doesn't matter that this person is pissed. Like, you're the pilot. You don't have to keep us happy. Please keep us safe. And if you're on that plane and you're terrified because you're like, "We have to make an emergency landing," I promise you, you're way more terrified when you hear this person change the decision because of the threat that a passenger is going to be very, very upset. And that is actually what we do when we're walking around on eggshells. Now, the alternative to this, again, we live in this world in parenting where there's a binary, where we say, and you said it yourself, "So I'm going to lay down the law." Like, I don't recommend that either, like, especially with a kid like that. That's not going to be the best solution. These kids have to be seen as good kids. They are good kids.

• 1:11:44Speaker 04

  And when I meet with parents of these kids, I hear about them. And like, I always say, "I hear about them." And I have a kid like this, so I get it. And I'm just like, "I really like your kid." And they're like, "What?" I was like, "I do." And they're like, and then they usually start crying. And they go, "You're literally the first person in 11 years who's ever said that." Including, like, the parents. Like, "You like our kid? Why?" I'm like, "They're tenacious. They're, they know what they want. They seem like they have 0% people-pleasing in them." These kids will change the world, but not if they're boundaryless. Then they'll become tyrants. And that's, that's really terrifying.

• 1:12:26Speaker 04

  And I'm going to teach you how to be the sturdy leader, which is equally firm as it is warm. And that's going to start today. And so like, here's an example of these deeply feeling kids. I think you said something about like, watching like, a TV show where these kids, it feels like they hold the family emotionally hostage, right? And because if you don't pick the movie that they want to watch on family movie night, they will scream, they will cry, and they will do that for three hours. They will. Other kids, after you're like, they don't peter out, these kids. These kids, interestingly enough, get in an awful cycle with their parents because they have such intense emotions more often, which more escalations, which tend to get met with invalidation. You're so dramatic. You ruin everything.

• 1:13:11Speaker 04

  They are that much more desperate to be believed. They escalate further. You can understand how that would lead to more distance and invalidation. And we're off to the races in a bad direction. And I would say to the parents, during family movie night tomorrow night, this is what you're going to do. And you're going to, by the way, I would say, this is how concrete I get. You're going to write this down and you're going to say it to a voice recorder with your own voice, and I want you to play it back and see how sturdy you sound. And they'll often do it, and they'll be like, wow, I didn't even believe myself when I said that. I'm so scared of my child, right? You're going to do it again. And then you're going to do it again. And this is, this is just like any other skill we practice. And you're going to say to your kid, look, I know in this family, you know, Bobby, usually we let him pick the movie, he gets really upset. If not, we all, tonight's going to be different. Bobby, it is your sister's turn to pick the movie.

• 1:13:56Speaker 04

  And I know you're going to be upset, and I just want to tell you exactly what's going to happen. And I'm going to, in this example, I'm saying there's a two-family household, which is an assumption, but even if there's one. If you're super upset and screaming, I'm going to bring you to your room. And this is important. I'm going to sit with you, and I'm going to stay there. And this is a line that I know from our deeply feeling kid workshop has, really, and you have to believe it to say it. I am not scared of your feelings. And I know parents will say to me, but Dr. Becky, I- I am scared of their feelings. I'm like, yeah, you're gonna fake it till you make it. They need to hear that. Because if you think about the image of these kids, their feelings feel so overpowering to them.

• 1:14:39Speaker 04

  They feel more, but they're actually more porous to the world. So they both have more coming in. And they're actually always terrified of how much of them can flow out. And so they feel their feelings that way. It's almost like my tantrum in the house takes up the entire living room. That's why you actually have to bring them to a smaller room. And you actually have to contain them in that way. As a way of kind of saying, like, it only goes this far. Like, literally. I will not let you dictate family movie and always sitting in the front seat and your favorite chair at dinner. It only goes this far. And that is truly an act of love and protection and safety for those kids.

• 1:15:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  How often do you observe that these deeply feeling kids? Is that how they're referred to?

• 1:15:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I made up the term, so, but yeah. Deeply feeling kids.

• 1:15:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  You are qualified to, qualified to. So deeply feeling kids also express these deep feelings in the positive sense. I mean, because I can think of some kids I grew up with. And I can look at my own experience of, like, it's hard to know. We don't have a calibration point. It's not like body temperature of like how much I feel versus how much you feel. We look at the external expression of these things. Like, did the lacrimal glands secrete some tears or not? Like, you know, as you were talking about this, this thing before, I'd notice I like welled up a little bit. And I'm thinking, yeah, like, I can remember seeing things and feeling things. And like, whoa, it's a really big inside. I don't remember screaming at my parents, telling them I hate them. I probably did at some point.

• 1:16:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  But, um, but I have observed other, other kids, peers that grew up, that clearly fell into this category. And have gone on to do remarkable things.

• 1:16:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:16:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Remarkable, like extraordinary things. Because it's a capacity that doesn't always skew towards negative expression. It can also, like immense expressions of love. And, and you know, I think these days that there's a tendency to, for unqualified, or like truly unqualified people, because they're not trained to do so, to slap labels like borderline, right, splitting, like good object, bad object, splitting. And indeed, that exists as a diagnosis and symptoms of borderline. But that we punish rather than believe and observe that these things exist. There's range in nervous system tuning and affect.

• 1:17:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  And so, put simply, do deeply feeling kids also tend to express love and joy and positive emotions with the same intensity or near same intensity?

• 1:17:17Speaker 04

  I would say it depends on, like, it depends on kind of their stage of development and the nature of the interactions they've kind of received back. I think deeply feeling kids, I always say, are super sensors. Like, if you have one of these kids, and I have one of these kids, we live in New York City. She will not go into a New York City garage, okay? Like, where we park our car. And she's like, "The smell." And the rest of us are like, "What are you talking about?" Meanwhile, I have another friend who lives in a totally different area of Manhattan, and she's a deeply feeling kid. She's like, "My daughter, the same thing." Like, I actually believe that my daughter smells something that I don't smell. Like, they are super sensors in that way, right? And she notices the little detail of something.

• 1:17:58Speaker 04

  Now, in terms of the intense love, I think for these kids, their vulnerability sits so close to their shame. This is why they get so explosive. They almost experience their feelings as attackers, which is, again, why parents can get scared of them. And they do. Because, again, they feel that feeling so intensely that they have this deep fear of abandonment, of being too much. And so, that shame tries to shut it down, although it obviously doesn't work, and it explodes. What I've noticed with deeply feeling kids, and this, to me, is actually, like, truly my proudest body of work. And you mentioned borderline, so we'll go there. People have said, like, "These sound almost like kids who are, like, have some predilection." To borderline and obviously having gone to a PhD program,

• 1:18:41Speaker 04

  we're told a lot about invalidating environments and things like that. I'm not really one for labels either. But I just got so much insight from my, honestly, my own kid where I was like, wow, like she is so different in how she processes things and what she needs and how she responds to my very same interactions as my other kids. Like they're very different and that fear of abandonment and being too much. It was like, it was like there from the start. It really feels like it was like there. What's so interesting is I feel like through working with her, by the way, in a very different way, because these kids reject almost every typical parenting strategy. You go to validate these kids' feelings. It's like you're trying to intrude on them and steal their heart. Because if you think about their porousness, they're so terrified of being taken over

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  that when you're like seeing a feeling, they feel like you're like seeing into them. And so they reject you. I always say you can't go in the front door with these kids. You've got to like find these side door approaches. But now of all my kids, she is by far the cuddliest, the most loving, the most emphatic about our relationship. Oh, this trip now, I'm going to miss you so much. Like the idea when she was four, that any of that, I would say to someone like, you are crazy. You are talking about a different kid. So I think that yes, that deep love is there and it, we just have to kind of make it a little safer for those kids to access it.

• 1:20:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is there any kind of general statements that one can still make accurately about differences in the expression or perhaps even the experience of deeply feeling kids in boys versus girls?

• 1:20:16Speaker 04

  Hmm, great question.

• 1:20:23Speaker 04

  I actually haven't noticed a ton, but there might be. I'd love to look more into that, but in terms of, I want to be accurate. I haven't noticed that yet. I think one of the things you know you have one of these kids is if you know the moments when you're a parent where your kid like needs you, like they're, and in those moments, your kids push you away. They push you away when they need you the most. If that's like, I think, a really common quality for the, for those kids.

• 1:20:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  And how, how common is this, I sound like such a, like a biologist, this deeply feeling kid phenotype. I don't, I don't, I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna lessen the importance of, of, of what you're saying by saying it that way. Because actually, what I think you're saying is incredibly important, resonates with me on a lot of different levels, in fact. So, but as far as I know, it's not a DSM diagnosis.

• 1:21:19Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:21:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  And thank goodness it's not, because that would pathologize it.

• 1:21:22Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:21:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right?

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:21:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, but, you know, of the, you know, in a, in a classroom, let's say, in a big classroom, a hundred kids.

• 1:21:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  How many of those kids, prob, and I'm guessing it's a continuum, but would fall into this category of deeply feeling?

• 1:21:39Speaker 04

  I think you're right, it's a continuum, and connecting topics I know you've spoken about. I've been doing a lot of looking into this overlap with deeply feeling kids and neurodivergence and ADHD. And what I think's interesting about that is, we, we have these workshops, these deeply feeling kid workshops, and a lot of them we do live. And there's this whole chat, right? And I'll say these things, people like that, you know, and they're definitely ideas they haven't heard. But what I think is more healing is thousands of people in the chat and saying, I, I thought, when I say the hissing thing, the chat is like a waterfall, I thought I was the only one, I thought, so, like, there are so many of these kids. Why I think there's more and more is something I need to look more into, but I think it does, right?

• 1:22:24Speaker 04

  If you think about these kids as more porous, and you think about how insanely stimulating the world is that we bring up kids, what comes into them, it would make sense that I think this is like a growing type. I'm guessing it's similar with ADHD too, why are so many more kids diagnosed than in the past? The world we bring up kids in, the sensory overload, if you're kind of that much more porous, that's going to overload your system. And, you know, it's, and I think that, I think that's also why more and more kids are. So what's the percentage? I don't, I don't know, like, maybe 20? But that, don't quote me on that.

• 1:23:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's a fairly high percentage.

• 1:23:02Speaker 04

  I do, I think it's a fairly high percentage.

• 1:23:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  But that feels right, that just sort of feels right, based on my observation of adults also.

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Feels right, might also explain a lot of the. Apparent conflicts and misunderstandings in adult relationships.

• 1:23:18Speaker 04

  That's and we, I mean, so many people like they'll say to me, I was, oh, my goodness. Like, that was like, that was like years of therapy for me watching that. I thought I would took that for my kid like this was me. And I finally talk about, I believe you. That's what I mean, deeply feeling kids are desperate to be believed and they're desperate for our attempts to connect with them because their deep fear is their unlovable. And so they do reject typical, you know, it's a stance, get out of my room. Fine, you're so difficult. And then see, I really am as unlovable and bad as I worried I was. Right. Unless we kind of reverse that cycle.

• 1:23:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd be willing to bet my life that most of the ultra successful performing artists that we observe, I'm not going to name names, but just think of ultra successful that the people whose words, music, poetry, writing, acting, presence evokes immense emotion in other people so much that people will pay money to see these people express their emotions and what's inside them fall into this deeply feeling category.

• 1:24:19Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 1:24:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, it just can't be any other way.

• 1:24:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:24:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, the muted performer, unless that's the shtick, so to speak, is just not compelling.

• 1:24:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. And a lot of what we're talking today is about the kind of tuning fork nature of emotions. So wow, what a tricky balance. Speaking of that, I'd like to just return to something I raised earlier and then I made the mistake, it was my fault of shutting the hatch on it. I'd like to reopen that hatch, which is when there's two parents, maybe they're under the same roof, maybe they're not, or let's just say two caretakers. So kids are pretty darn good at figuring out who to go to for what and how to balance out negative experiences by seeking out the positive reinforcement of the other, sometimes even pitting parents and caretakers against one another.

• 1:25:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, makes children sound diabolical, but adults do it too. It's called gossip.

• 1:25:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  What can co-parents, co-care-takers do to try and align strategies? Or if necessary, to offset some like, bad stuff that the other parent might be doing? And in today's landscape, where it's about 50% of marriages end in divorce, at least in the US, you also have the situation where then their new significant others come in, and now you've extended the landscape to, you know, sometimes five or six different parents, you know?

• 1:25:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  My family's, my biological family's starting to look like the UN. We've got so many countries and religions and like this thing. It's kind of nice on the one hand, but lots of divergence of opinion and emotional stance and background. So, how in the world do we wrap our efforts around this?

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, I, one of the most common questions I get from a parent at Good Inside is like, can you convince my partner why the way they do things is wrong? And, you know, do things more like Good Inside? And so, essentially, I always say like, yeah, I'm not, for a million reasons, I'm not like too interested in taking that phone call, um, you know, but...

• 1:26:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I don't get involved in couple disputes either.

• 1:26:30Speaker 04

  Um, you know, but, but again, assuming, and you've said this a couple of times, which I love, like, I'm assuming the way your kind of partner or, you know, the co-parent does things is not like, really like damaging your child. Obviously, that's like, really time for an intervention.

• 1:26:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  No hitting, no emotional abuse.

• 1:26:44Speaker 04

  Exactly. But, you know, even like, I'm not a believer of saying for a timeout, right? Like, I don't believe in timeouts and punishments. I don't think they feel good to kids or parents, and I also don't think they're effective.

• 1:26:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, so timeouts not effective?

• 1:26:57Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 1:26:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay. And I, and we probably should have closed the hatch on. I have to imagine that the going word in the profession of psychology and raising kids properly is, you never spank them, you never hit them.

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, no.

• 1:27:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, all right, for the record.

• 1:27:13Speaker 04

  So, maybe we'll get back there, but just to go on the record, and I think you can sense from my style... Not punishing or timeouts like doesn't mean you're permissive at all. There's 0% permissive or even softness, I think, you know, and there's softness. There's 0% permissive in those moments, but we can get back there. But let's say your partner does do that or the co-parent, right? Like, I would be the first to say to someone like, do I think that that's like messing up your kid? I, I don't, I really don't, especially if, for example, in that situation, let's say I'm divorced and my now ex, you know, I just know that they do timeouts or this and I've tried to talk to them, but you know, whatever, they're not getting on board with the style.

• 1:27:56Speaker 04

  And to me, what happens is like, you have a kid, they come back to you and they're like, you know, Papa gave me a timeout and we don't do that in my house. And my first thing is I call my ex. That's usually what I do. Or the school did this and I called school. I called the ex and I'm like, why did you do that? We don't do that. What I think is really important, and I actually find it very like relieving as a parent, be like, what's actually most important is helping my kid understand their experience. Like, we center the other person and what they're doing wrong, wrong, instead of centering our kid. We might need to call a parent, the other parent, and say like, hey, it would be really great to get on the same page. Could we, could we do this course together? That would just be great. You don't have to agree with anything. I, I think that would be great.

• 1:28:41Speaker 04

  But in that moment, what my kid needs actually is more like, wait, that's kind of hard and confusing. So like in our house, when you do something like you scream, I hate you, you know, I intervene in one way. And when you go to your dad's house, he intervenes in a very different way. It's a lot of like, that's a lot of switching to make sense of, you know? Or maybe my kid says, Mom never apologizes to me after she yells. And I would call, you know, or maybe it's my own wife. And I'm like, hey, you know the importance of repair. Haven't you listened to all this literature? You know, I would like to have some influence on that, but what I feel like my kid needs in the moment is more like, tell me what happened.

• 1:29:21Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, she yelled at you and yeah, look, something I know, like, I know mom was, I know she had a really stressful day at work. And look, this isn't your responsibility, but you can just know this, mom has a really hard time apologizing to her, has a really hard time apologizing. And actually, when people have a hard time apologizing, they seem cold and like, they don't care. They actually usually feel so ashamed of what they did. And the reason I'm telling you that is not because you have to take care of her, but just so you know this, so wasn't you. And anytime something happens with mom that doesn't feel good, and you feel like you can't resolve it, like, you can talk to me. And I'm gonna get out of role play for a sec, but I think you can see, I'm not throwing my wife under the bus, like, at all. But I'm centering what my kid needs.

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  What my kid needs, going back, is they need to process that experience with an adult they feel safe with, rather than be in aloneness. And I often picture, like, this kid on the couch who tells me a problem at their dad's house or at school, and I like, go off to make a call, and I picture them alone, being like, oh, like, now I'm alone, like, I, where's, like, I didn't really want you to go do that, I just wanted you to, like, listen to me, you know? There might then be a step two, you know, to kind of get on the same page. Or when parents say, get on the same page, I think the problem is that we're not, like, looking at the same page. Forget getting on the same page, we're not even speaking the same language. Like, people say to me, my partner won't even watch a video with me, that I just want to even, even if they disagree. That is the problem. And frankly,

• 1:30:47Speaker 04

  that's not a parenting problem. That's also what I'll say to someone. If you say to your partner, look, I've been a member of Good Inside, and it's been really helpful, and it resonates, and you don't have to agree with it, but like, I would love to watch this four-minute video. If your partner says no, that has nothing to do with parenting. That is a core relationship problem, that they just don't care to do something that you say is important to you. That's a, that's a marriage problem. That's all, right? So, and I think it's really important, and we talk about this a lot, like, if that was someone, I'd coach them to say, hey, and you don't have to agree, but if you don't commit to watching a four-minute video with me and just talking about it a little bit, and I promise, I'll try not to be judgy or provy, I'll just listen. I don't really

• 1:31:30Speaker 04

  think we're talking about parenting, I think you're telling me you don't really respect me enough to do the things I'm asking you to do. And that'll, that'll stick with me. Like, that's the way I'd handle it.

• 1:31:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, this is very helpful.

• 1:31:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm curious about these ADHD diagnoses slash kids. Cause there's a lot of, you know, loose hand diagnosis this day, these days. Years ago, I was a camp counselor, took kids backpacking and I learned an important concept of when working with adolescent and teenage boys, which is be a channel, not a dam. You know, when they're super energetic, like they're not sitting still. Where it's not nap time. Like, there's just no way. So this notion of getting it out, like allowing some place for physical or emotional catharsis that's safe, obviously. And that kids have a lot of energy.

• 1:32:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, damn it, the adult population seems to be trying to regress themselves to have that energy. So how can we blame them for having so much energy? And of course, there are children who have, and adults with clinically diagnosed ADHD that really struggle. But, you know, for the kid that's more energetic, maybe even has a hard time sitting still to the point of discomfort. And when the rest of the world that we can't control is telling them like, hey, like your kid is like, needs to be regulated on the subway, on the bus, in the classroom. You know, what are some things that we can do in terms of communication with those kids? And probably some of those kids are listening as well.

• 1:33:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  And to just be a channel, not a dam, to allow their best expression to come forward.

• 1:33:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I love this idea in general. Like we, it's much more effective to tell anyone what they can do, rather than telling them what they can't do. Right across the board with kids, because there's usually a can that is possible. And then like you can work with the urge instead of, I don't even know, like trying to suppress it or have it not act itself out. It's like our urges and feelings are forces, like they're gonna, they're gonna come out. And so, yes, I think this idea of like me and my kid are on the same team here. I think that's so important to start with. And you can definitely, you know, if you have a kid with some attentional, you know, struggles, like we're on the same team. You can so easily get into me against you. And then you look to shut down anything, everything about them. But yeah, we're on the same team. So let's say like it's hard to do homework right now. I see you, okay.

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  Like let's, let's take an amount of time and it seems like you have a lot of energy. Like let's do some heavy work or let's run outside. And maybe homework always has to start after a period like that. Maybe they need a break. But this idea of yes, I'm working with my kid as opposed to against my kid is always going to be more successful.

• 1:34:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you think that some of the new emerging tools, some of which, you know, I've talked a lot about, but many, many people have talked a lot about things like meditation, kids doing some long exhale breathing, um, you know, in addition to the, you know, the way I grew up, it was like pee time or recess time, like running around like crazy. And, um, do you think that these tools are helping kids get some self-regulation? Or is whatever self-regulation they're gaining offset by the fact that, um, you know, there's just so much more input? You know, we hear so much about the challenges of social media for adults, but certainly for kids, um, you know, bullying, obviously being one of the more salient ones, but also

• 1:35:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  just the fact that when they go home at night and they're in bed, they're potentially still in interactions with their friends. We used to have a phone landline that we'd sometimes call one another on, but I wasn't really much of a phone kid with my friends. So when you're home, you're home. You were separated from all of that. I mean, how bad is it? And, um, what are some things that parents and kids might consider?

• 1:35:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, to me meditation, things like that, like always like icing on the cake. Like that's always helpful. And certainly like teaching kids real tools, like those are like literally something I can do. I've learned this meditation. I have a mantra, something like that, like huge fan, right? You have to be able to like touch it in some way. But to me, I think what's coming up is you bring up this larger point and it actually goes back to where we started. It's like.

• 1:35:57Speaker 04

  The cost to children of parents not being able to set boundaries has never been higher. And at the same time, it's never been harder for parents to set boundaries. And I think this stuff starts way before social media. Like, to me, when I think about the earliest years of a kid's life, you get so much bang for your buck in life from helping kids just learn to tolerate frustration. And so much of kids' early life right now in the world we live in is all about the immediate escape from frustration. And not only escape from frustration, but from frustration to gratification in like an instant. It's like so fast. How did that just happen? Like, it didn't used to be like that. There wasn't even an option. Like, me and you, like, I don't know, you wanted a movie?

• 1:36:41Speaker 04

  Like, I don't know, maybe your parent could drive you to Blockbuster if you had an account. And then, like, maybe, I don't know, I remember going, be like, are they gonna have it? Are they gonna have it? And then you see the thing and there's nothing behind it and you're like, they don't have it. That whole thing-

• 1:36:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Blockbuster, by the way, was a video store. Just kidding, I'm just totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. But some of you out there, like, I sometimes do this to myself, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I used to love going to pick out movies at the VHS store.

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  But if you think about that as one tiny thing, it's obviously tiny. And you think about, like, I remember that in my childhood. Anything about that tiny moment compared to some parallel in a kid, the, there's no frustration. The want and the gratification, there's zero space. There is zero space. And, and also, I have to say, our generation of parents, and me too, 100% me too, our tolerance for frustration has gone way down because of the gratification world we live in, which means our tolerance of our kids' tantrums is at an all-time low. Because we're like, hey, my life is like pretty easy in a lot of ways. This is like a massive inconvenience. So, kids have more gratification than ever. We have lower tolerances for frustration. Everyone does.

• 1:37:52Speaker 04

  Which means the way we interact with kids over and over and over, plus just the natural things they're exposed to or not, like Netflix versus Blockbuster, just means, like, their circuitry around expectations and what feels good-

• 1:38:09Speaker 04

  Like to me, that's what really, it scares me. It does. And like figuring out how to tolerate or even insert, like little insert frustration into your kid's life as early as possible. To me is like, is of critical importance.

• 1:38:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  I could not agree more. And, and I say that with the understanding that I have also shortened the latency in my reward prediction errors, which is nerd speak for when I want to watch a movie, I go into Netflix and they're like, it's near infinite and I can get right then. The internet's a little slow, then I start barking about how slow internet is worse than no internet. And you know, you start observing yourself and you just go, oh my goodness, like what's going on?

• 1:38:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, there's the ability to tolerate different wait times between anticipation and reward is so critical. And that's what getting a degree is about. That's what doing anything challenging is about. I, I've gone on record saying that too much dopamine without effort exerted in order to get that dopamine is very detrimental.

• 1:39:23Speaker 04

  Well, that to me, and all the screen time kind of discussion, there's so much screen time and social media and like all the things that screen time do to for kids. And again, like my kids watch TV and they're young and they have iPads. Like I'm so not a purist, I'm a pragmatist and whoever's listening to this, no one messed up their kids forever. All right. So we can just, like we were talking about before, use this information to make slightly different decisions on the margin. That's as best it gets. But I think about this a lot, when our kids are especially young and they're building this circuitry around like, what does it mean to get success? Like what, what are my expectations there? How much effort do I have to put in? And I think about like a young kid, you know, playing some mindless, just dopamine giving game. The circuit they learn is like mindlessness, zero effort, dopamine.

• 1:40:11Speaker 04

  And then I think, and I find this really interesting, like, how many people say, like, their kid is six now, having a really hard time learning how to read? And they're getting all these learning assessments, and the learning assessments are coming back, like, no dyslexia, right? And I know some of these families, and I say this with love, is I say, I literally think this is the first time in this kid's life that they kind of have to put, like, concerted effort without, in the moment, success.

• 1:40:42Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, that, like, that looks like a lot of things. It can, it can even present, like, ADHD, right? Because, you know, it can present like that, it might be. But it might also just be that these dopamine circuits have developed in a way that's so, that's not conducive with something like learning how to read, right? And so, when parents ask me now, like, I know, reading and academic skills, like, what can I do when my kids are younger? I got them flashcards. No flashcards. Like, I mean, you can get flashcards, that's fine, it's not, like, detrimental. But to me, it's like, well, what is my kid's relationship with frustration? Because I think about this thing called, like, the learning space, right? Again, I'm visual, like, there's not knowing how to do something, and then there's successfully doing something.

• 1:41:26Speaker 04

  And the space in between is, like, the learning space, that's what learning is. And learning, the learning space inherently is frustrating. That's, like, the right feeling to be feeling. And when kids have learned to collapse those two things, then, like, they don't have a lot of space to learn. Versus, I don't know, even, like, I'm thinking about my kid who wants to, like, draw a rainbow or sun when they're young. And they're like, that doesn't look like a sun. It would be easy for me to be like, let me just do that for you. And by the way, yes, I give myself permission to do that sometimes. Like, sometimes, like, I can't deal with this, I've got other things to do. But sometimes, I think, like, long, and that long-term greedy, like, oh. This is going to be the same circuit for learning how to read.

• 1:42:09Speaker 04

  It is, and for learning how to do that project. And what if my only goal, forget them drawing a sun, and I've got to tolerate the whining. My only goal was just to lengthen the amount of time they let themselves be in that learning space. That's it. Because I think we know as adults, it's not about getting to success. That comes when it comes. The longer amount of time you let yourself be in that learning space, the more successful you can be with hard things. Because like, it just is, right? You just got to traverse through. And so to me, that's like, honestly, one of the things I'm most passionate about teaching parents is like, literally, like, what do you do during that time then? How do I change what my goal is? If my goal is to stop my kid's tantrum, I'm going to collapse it. But if my goal is just to lengthen that, I might do something very different.

• 1:42:52Speaker 04

  Oh, drawing a cer-- that's not, you're right, you didn't want to draw that. Oh, drawing a circle is so hard, and my kids, can you do it for me? Can you do it? Like, of course, sometimes I will, but I might say, like, I'm not going to do it, sweetie. I'm not, you know why? Because I know you can do this a little more. I have faith in you. And I think this is so powerful to say to kids. This is so frustrating, and that's the exact way you should be feeling. You don't want our kids to be, you should, that's the right feeling. I'll even draw that learning space visual. This is where you're in the, this is where you are. You're doing an amazing job. And it is actually interesting when kids are young, like, they actually do adopt that.

• 1:43:36Speaker 04

  Like, someone said to me, like, I've been doing this stuff for a while, and my kid literally says to me, I like to do hard things, Mom. Like, they believe it. Like, that's an amazing self-belief to develop. That's awesome. Right? So, yes, I think this stuff, especially compared to how easy it is to get that gratification, it's just, it's like, more important than ever to have an offset.

• 1:43:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I'm doing my best to get the word out into the world that the only reason the brain changes at all is if there is these neuromodulators like epinephrine, adrenaline in the body and brain, because that's what signals that the nervous system needs to change. If something can be accomplished, there's no reason for the nervous system to change by definition. There's also, I don't want to spin off into a neuroscience of resilience and willpower lesson here, but there's some amazing literature that shows that there's this area of the brain, the anterior mid-singulate cortex, which is activated when people do things they don't want to do. And it generalizes to other

• 1:44:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  things. But this is not the, I love to work out, so I'm gonna work out. This is the, I hate to work out and I do it anyway. And it translates to success in academic endeavors, success in all sorts of environments. And so I think the beauty of it is that this brain structure is highly plastic and can be built up through one thing and that translates to others. So doing hard things, experiencing what I call limbic friction, just as a gateway to learning, just understanding that it always feels hard. That's what learning is. In fact, I can remember in graduate school, even as a young adult, my mid twenties, I was struggling with an analysis. And my graduate advisor, she was wonderful this way. And I said, she

• 1:45:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  clearly knew how to do it. And I said, can you explain how to do this? And she goes, no. I was like, just, we had done. And she's like, no, it's called learning. And she just walked out. She was also a great parent to her children. And I also tried to get adopted by her and that failed. So, you know, Third time's the charm. Exactly. My poor parents, like, they did their best and I'm grateful to them for many things. But I think that, including the encouragement to do hard things, do things that suck, that are beneficial for us. So it's a knife edge, right? Now that I'm reflecting, it's like, do things that suck. I believe you, it sucks. And then what did my mom used to say? A lot? You know, hate me now, love me later. You know, I loved her then and

• 1:46:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love her now. But yeah, there were moments where I was like, I hate that you're making me do this. I don't know about the hate me now, love me later. Old school.

• 1:46:19Speaker 04

  But I think what she was trying to say is I have your best interest in mind.

• 1:46:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Definitely.

• 1:46:23Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:46:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Definitely. Yeah. No, definitely.

• 1:46:27Speaker 04

  Can I say one thing just because loud in my head?

• 1:46:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Please, please.

• 1:46:29Speaker 04

  Just like, one of the things in this, like, I think it's easy and I'm hearing myself, like, we hear this and I think it's easy to listen and be like, oh, man, I never thought about it that way. Or, I didn't know that. Or again, we just spiral as a parent so fast. Like, I messed up my kid forever. Like, nobody messed up their kid forever. It doesn't matter how, it's just not true. And this is where I think we can spiral into like, yeah, what's wrong with me? And like, I kind of ask parents in this situation to like, come with me to a different location, which is kind of like anger. And I have started to feel angry and I think angry, anger like tells us what we need. So I'm like, well, what is that anger telling me? Like, it is, it is messed up. The system is stacked against us that when you become a parent,

• 1:47:08Speaker 04

  it is literally the hardest, most confusing, most triggering, most important job we have. And we are given zero resources, right? Like, nobody I know would tell a surgeon who never went to med school and was struggling at surgery that they were a bad surgeon. They'd be like, wow, like, you probably, like, you probably deserve to go to med school and residency, by the way. Like, that's an important job you have. And so I think it's easy to listen to all this and spiral into like, oh, no. But I'd ask you to almost like feel a little, like, protective, helpful anger next to it, which is like, wow, like, yes, like, this is an important job I have. This is complicated.

• 1:47:50Speaker 04

  And maybe there are resources out there that, like, I deserve. And I think that, like, that's the perspective I would ask parents to listen from.

• 1:47:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Earlier, you described the job of parenting as boundaries, right? Imparting boundaries, as well as empathy and validation. I just want to remind people that your, like, very basic but very practical job description for parenting is something that I think we can return to over and over again. It also makes me wonder.

• 1:48:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  In thinking about the generalizability of these concepts to other forms of relationship, what about the relationship to self?

• 1:48:25Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right? It's something we don't often talk about.

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:48:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um, relationship to self, we, we want to have boundaries. And we also want to be able to empathize and validate ourselves.

• 1:48:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think, right, like, I don't know, my friend didn't invite me. I don't know, I found she out, she had five friends for a dinner and I was like, oh, you know, I'm so hurt. I would, I would say to myself, I, I believe myself, like, I'm allowed to feel that way. I think our feelings love when we tell them they make sense. I just think there's something magical about that phrase, it makes sense, I'm upset. I mean, my friends were all there and I wasn't, that, that makes sense. And, and there's a boundary, because when my feeling tells me, well, I'm about to plan a dinner party for 200 people and invite everyone I know but her, I feel like there's important, like, you know what feeling? Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let you go that far. And the image I always think about is like, I'm the driver of my car and all the different feelings and urges, like, they're passengers and we can't get them out of the car.

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  You just can't, they're in your body, but you don't want to let them take over the driver's seat. That's really what it is. And as long as they're a passenger, they actually won't cause you that many problems. They'll be annoying. And to me, that's like, hey, I see you, like, I see you. And I will often say hi to my feelings for that reason, like, high anxiety that woke me up at four in the morning. You know, like, yes, there's a lot in my mind, hi. And then there's like a boundary, like, you're not, like, you're a part of me and not all of me. So I think that phrase for regulating our own feelings, you're a part of me and not all of me, is the essence of validating and having a boundary.

• 1:49:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  What about our need, I think, healthy need to know whether or not the lesson stuck? So I've observed this before, a kid is catastrophizing about an upcoming event, maybe a concert, or a test, or a homework thing, or a social thing. And like, we're using all our best tools to try and help them. And I believe you, I hear you then, and they go through the experience and they do pretty well, maybe even great. And then we say, like, did you notice you were so concerned before and you, you did it?

• 1:50:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  You really did it. Is there something that we can or should do to try and stamp down that, that recognition? Because one thing that's so beautiful about childhood is the, um, short-term horizon nature of childhood. We're kind of like, trying not, I mean, we talk about, you know, adults trying to take it one day at a time, or even half a day at a time, and kids are navigating on the basis of like, First period class.

• 1:50:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Second period class. Um, their, their, their horizon is often very close in. And I do wonder if they're internalizing these, these more global lessons on their own, or whether or not we should try and help them internalize what they just did. Like, do you get it? You were super concerned. You were like, almost dissolving into a puddle of your own tears. And I believe you, that was the appropriate response then. And now, you did it. Like, think about that.

• 1:51:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:51:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is it good that we reinforce those, those, um, those wins?

• 1:51:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think our kids do internalize kind of the patterns, right? But, but I hear you. There are these moments, it's almost like we want to like encapsulate it for them. Like, hey, that was the thing, right? I think kids pick up on whether our interactions were doing something for them or for us. So if it's from a like, hey, that thing I taught you was really helpful, right? Like, it would just be like, if my husband was like, hey, your presentation went well because I like told you to do that thing. And I'd be like, stop talking to me, right? But if he said to me, hey, like, what was it that led to that? It's probably like, that's helpful to talk out, you know? I'd be much more open. So I love the phrase, going back to like just real tools, I'm noticing. I think actually often we want to praise our kids or tell something, just saying I'm noticing, because again, we want to be seen. We don't want to feel controlled.

• 1:52:08Speaker 04

  I'm noticing does that. Like, hey, I'm noticing you were so worried about this test. We kind of talked about this way of like talking to your anxiety. And, and then I'm just noticing you like felt really good about how it went. Like even that, I think, because that's like the biggest thing now in our like crazy fast world we live in, is just pausing to notice. That's already like encapsulating. Or saying to your kid, and, and I think like a question's only a question when you don't know the answer, right? Like sometimes we ask, they're just, they have question marks, but it's like a statement or criticism. So if we say to our kid, um, That thing I taught you was really helpful, right? Do you think that was helpful? That's not really a question. We already have an answer. But if I say, hey, like, I just thought it would be good for us to talk through for a second.

• 1:52:53Speaker 04

  Like, what was it, you think, that led you to really feel good that day in the test? Then, like, if I really don't know what my kid could say, I think they'll receive it. And then they might say, like, oh, is that thing we talked about? Like, that's so great to know. I'm even thinking about Spanish coming up. And, like, I wonder, do you think that would? I think "I wonder" is also a great phrase for parents, just wondering. I wonder if that would be helpful there. Again, they just, like, lower defensiveness because there's, maybe there's, like, movement with wondering. It doesn't feel controlling. So, yeah, I think there is, like, those are nice moments. If it comes from a place of, like, connection, not from control.

• 1:53:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  That makes sense. We had a guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a world expert in emotions. And she explained that in cultures where there's more nuanced language for different emotions, rather than the, what I call, the emoji-ification of emotions, there's better emotion tolerance. So, understanding that it's not just sad, happy, depressed, thrilled, but there's a lot of nuance, it's very context-dependent, can be very useful. Do you think there's something to be gained from letting kids explore the range of emotions, not just, you know, how do you feel, good or bad?

• 1:54:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, most adults need to learn that good or bad are valuations. That's not actually an emotion.

• 1:54:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's not actually an expression of how you feel. But that's what we do, for shorthand.

• 1:54:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, do you think that, let's just say, in the United States, but elsewhere perhaps as well, that there's some value to, well, teaching kids to pay attention, like, what is going on inside?

• 1:54:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, what is this feeling of what I call anxiety? Is it excitement and anxiety? Or what, like, being able to better pinpoint what one is coping with, but also the positive aspects of emotion?

• 1:54:41Speaker 04

  Yes. I mean, it's funny, I, even the clinical psychologist, the question, how do you feel? I always find, like, very, like, a lot of pressure. I don't know. Like, I think that's, I tend not to ask my kid that, but I tend also never to have asked, like, patients that. Like, so- You know, I think what we're getting at is we want, and I think this relates to resilience. Like resilience is our ability, in my mind, to tolerate the widest range of emotions as possible. Because like, as humans, we're gonna feel that whole range. So the more of them you've learned to tolerate, like, the better off you'll be. And so that's what I want for my kids. I don't know if that has to explicitly come from naming, although I think that point is definitely true. The more things we can name, the more things we can understand.

• 1:55:22Speaker 04

  To me, just showing up for your kid in a way that's like, with believing, maybe with boundaries, is probably the best way to help your kid tolerate the widest range of emotions. Because they learn that every emotion, like, can be held in connection with someone else. Right? Versus held in aloneness and is bad. So I guess that's the way I think through it.

• 1:55:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Maybe we could talk about adolescents and teenagers specifically. Teenage years are wild. I always say that the single most traumatic aging event, and the most rapid rate of aging that we ever experience, is puberty. I mean, just fundamentally, brain circuits that were, for one thing, or that were dormant, change and come alive in ways that the world forever will look different to us, feel different to us, and our self-perception changes. Period. It's something that biologists still understand at the level of hormones and hypothalamic circuitry, but that has really not been matched to a psychological understanding and vice versa.

• 1:56:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, like, nothing is quite like the music you listen to when you're a teenager. It like, it brings you back, the memories you form, positive and negative, stamped down, boom, now and forever. The emotional salience can change, but those are wild years. What are some of the more critical needs of late adolescents and teens that are actionable?

• 1:56:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:56:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, and, yeah, I mean, I'm just, I mean, my teen years were crazy, but even if they're less crazy, they're always crazy.

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:57:09Speaker 04

  Yes, so, and one of the reasons, I think, at least in America, that adolescence is seen as such a huge shift, like, my kid is out of control, they're always out, they're like, always rejecting me, I actually don't think is unrelated to the behavioral control approaches that are inherent in American parenting, because like you referred to, your kid becomes 14, and they kind of realize, like, wait, I'm bigger than one of my parents, like, I literally don't care about their sticker charts anymore, and we might have missed 14 years of building a relationship. And so what that kid's adolescence is going to look like is markedly different

• 1:57:53Speaker 04

  than if, for those past 14 years, you weren't giving into everything, no, but you were leading in a sturdier, more connected way. So I really think this whole idea that American adolescents, like, reject everything, I actually think not all of it, a part of it is completely developmentally normal, but a big part of it relates to this tradition of behavioral control that kids cannot reject until they're at the age that they kind of could survive on their own, which is adolescence. So I think that's really important. The things I would tell parents to really keep in mind that are critical, number one is related to that, like, a teen's job is to separate and to start to form their own identity. And I think there's a couple of things about that parents need to know. Number one, like, I don't think we prepare parents enough for the true sense of loss they feel when their

• 1:58:38Speaker 04

  kids are adolescents, because that's very real, like, you've just spent all these years, and like, you've driven them to every soccer, and they kind of talk to you in the backseat, and maybe you have family movie nights, and then all of a sudden, they don't want any of that. And it's just so important for parents to know, like, I'm going to feel sad, I'm going to feel lost, and if we don't know to expect it, we often kind of infuse that into a lot of anger toward our kid. And so I just think that's normal, and we should talk about that more, and parents of adolescence need to be talking about that with each other, of course you miss that, that's totally normal. Um, number two related to that separation. If you think about identity formation, like here's a kid in us and we're kind of close.

• 1:59:20Speaker 04

  And they now are at the stage where developmentally their job at that stage is to figure out who they are. They have to overcorrect. Like you have to kind of overcorrect in the amount of space you take. Because it's really the only way you can figure out like, wait, maybe I do want to take parts of that. That part's okay. And so I think that's like a powerful image to think about. Like they are moving far away. That distance they take from you is not their final point. They will move closer. Now, going back to loss, not as close as they used to be. And that is different, but that's not, that's it. This is their way of trying to figure out who they are. My, then the last thing I'd say that kind of relates to that image is like, even as they move away, I think parents massively underestimate how much they still need us there making efforts to connect.

• 2:00:05Speaker 04

  And I always think like the difference in like an explorer and a nomad is whether or not you have a home base. And like if our teens feel like nomads, it's not a good situation. They're explorers. They try a million different things, but like they, they really do need us. They, they need to know that they have a home. And um, I'll never forget my private practice. I, I used to work with teens, not the long ago, just the teens, sometimes the parents too. And this teen came to me and this was extreme. She'd been um, really in a, in a, in a bad place with her parents, like intense, intense conflict. And um, they got in this huge fight and she was really, really upset. And she was describing this to me, she's like, and then I was like, get out of my room.

• 2:00:49Speaker 04

  Get out, I hate you, get out, you know? And I was just like sitting there listening and, and then she like, and I pushed him out and I slammed the door. And it was a couple of minutes later, open the door. My heart's racing. Can you believe they weren't there? Can you believe they weren't there?

• 2:01:09Speaker 04

  And to me, it was just this like, and again, it's not about being a punchy bag. But I like under like her seeming anger and her like intense pain were so close together in her own story.

• 2:01:28Speaker 04

  It's just over and over the same thing like they're gonna reject you. They're gonna say, get out of my room. And yes, it sucks that they want you to slip a note under their door. After you've taken a couple of minutes, it says, that was really tough. Or like, wow, that got out of control. You're a good kid and I love you. And I want to just tell parents of teens, you're gonna do that. There's gonna be a pause and then you will hear them rip up the note. You will. And like, I swear to any parent that that still resonated. And your kid is again, trying to figure out, how do I stay close with my parents and I'm figuring out my own who I am. So like, they rip up the note because like, they almost like have to do it to like, take in how much they're still desperate for those bits for connection.

• 2:02:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sounds a lot like the dynamics of adult relationships, although hopefully, hopefully with a little bit less dramatic accentuation. But you know, even if it does, I mean, it's like these, these circuits that are laid down in childhood, early childhood, they persist, right? I mean, I think if any of these become clear to me in understanding brain development and brain function, it's that, you know, we don't discard circuitry for attachment and go, oh, you know, that was for mom and this one was for dad and that was for the dog. And then the romantic relationship is different. We repurpose the circuits. Hence, all the beautiful work on childhood attachment that's now being translated to adult attachment.

• 2:02:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I realize there's nuance to it, but you know, I was reflecting a bit on this, again, incredibly potent.

• 2:03:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  Phrase or mention of explorers versus nomads of having a home base and thinking about the psychology experiments where children are observed in the presence of their caretakers. Sometimes the strange situation task where people are separate, kids are separated from their moms, their mom and child, typically mom. Nowadays, it's also been done with other caretakers and dads reunite. But one doesn't even have to know about those experiments. All you have to do is go to a park or be out in public and see a little toddler venturing away from parent. And then what do they do every once in a while? They look back. They're just trying to check to make sure they're there. Even the kids that are taking off on the tricycle like crazy. Yes.

• 2:03:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Will eventually stop and look back. It's like this fundamental circuit. We're looking back, you know, and how far they feel they can go is in direct relationship to presumably the number of times that. They recharge. That they recharge and were able to see that verification that the parent was still there. I think this notion of explorers versus nomads and being an explorer, obviously being a good thing, a healthy thing within reason, and nomads just feeling adrift, untethered. Yes. You know, one of the scariest words, at least to me, in the English language. So the note under the door. Yeah.

• 2:04:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  It included the words, "I love you." I don't want to get too detailed here, but those words sometimes are never spoken in a home, sadly. Sometimes are spoken so often and under so many circumstances that one wonders, like, did they lose their potency? Yeah. But I noticed that in that note, it finished, "I love you." It's sort of like stating, at the end of the day, no matter what you say. Probably even what you do.

• 2:05:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:05:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I've gone, I've been in the presence of parents of kids that were criminals that did horrible things. They still love their kids. So reminding kids that, under any and all circumstances.

• 2:05:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. And again, and I think what's so critical, because our brain collapses, is that doesn't mean you think their behavior is okay. And I get the fear, like, I would never want to send my kid the message that it's okay to, quote, do certain things, right? Like, that it's okay to just scream at your parents. Of course, it's not okay. It's just, I think we miss, like, that happened. Like, that happened already. Like, if I dropped my phone and it broke, and I was trying to understand why it broke, trying to understand that doesn't mean it's okay that I dropped it. Like, it just, it doesn't, it just dropped. Like, it already happened. Now what? You know? And, yeah, our kids need to know, they need to know that they're loved. And that, again, there's kind of like in that message, I think, like, I

• 2:06:00Speaker 04

  still see you're a good kid under that moment. And I actually think it's a powerful strategy for every parent to kind of conjure up a good kid image. Like, what is it? Was it that last time we were playing this game and it was just so fun? Or is it a memory of my kid when they were three? And like, I don't know, they did this really cute thing. And it kind of like, really crystallizes that. And like, even under, you know, this bad behavior, that kid, like, that kid's still there. And the kids, the kids who behave the worst are in the deepest pain. I mean, the adults, too. And that's not to say it's okay. But again, we're talking about relationships we want to be in. Like, if you're in a relationship with your teen, it's not one you're like, this is toxic. Like, this is my kid. I'm going to be in a relationship with them. So, you know, remembering that they're in pain. Teens

• 2:06:42Speaker 04

  are in a lot of pain. They're exploring a new world. Frankly, right now, like, teens have worlds we don't understand it. That's so helpful for parents to approach your teen just as a tangible tool and say, you know, there's so many things in your world that I don't understand. And frankly, probably I might, like, criticize or judge, like, Can you take out your phone? This, you know, whatever it is, this app you're on, this video game, like, can we just even time box this five minutes? Like, I just want to end this conversation saying I understand it better. Like, I promise you, that's probably going to do more for your relationship with your kid than anything else, because yes, they do. And they might reject you, and if you do, again, don't take the bait, but ask again next week. Like, again, they do, they need us to return.

• 2:07:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, one thing's for sure, none of us, except those that are teens, know what it's like to be a teenager in 2024. Just like they didn't know what it was like to be a teenager for me in the late 80s, early 90s.

• 2:07:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:07:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  How could they?

• 2:07:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:07:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, um, what are your thoughts on, like, family meetings? Like, once a week, we sit down, we check in, you know, I hear that people do this, may participate in these before.

• 2:07:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you feel like those can be useful, or is it more window dressing?

• 2:07:54Speaker 04

  I mean, I guess it depends what's happening in there. I mean, the idea of, like, hey, there's a lot going on in our life, and we have a ritual of coming together and talking things through, working through problems, like, if that's what it is, that's a beautiful thing. Like, I hear that, my first thought is, I should do that, you know? But you're right, like, life gets messy, so, but if it's done in a way where it feels we end and everyone feels a little bit more understood and a little bit more purpose and, you know, making things move forward in a positive direction, that's amazing. I think family meetings, it's funny, the way I think about them often, which is just different, is it's actually a great strategy, especially when your kids are older, and there's, like, somewhat of an ongoing conflict. So maybe there's, like, an ongoing conflict about how much video game time, or, you know, how much, you know, they, how late they can stay out.

• 2:08:38Speaker 04

  And to say to a kid, and again, this just comes from, again, so important for teens, we have to approach our kid like we're on the same team. I always say it's me and my kid against a problem, not me against my kid where they are the problem. Like, and so to say, hey, you've been late, you know, or we have to figure out your curfew, and like, look, you're a smart kid, you're a good kid. My number one job is to keep you safe. But you're old now. And if I just tell you a time, it's the same thing that happened last year. We're getting fights all year. Why don't we sit down and we will do what I do in my office. There's two people that each have ideas. I'm going to bring a pad of paper, and that's actually super important. And I'm going to write down all of your ideas and my ideas. And then we're just going to kind of go through and cross out the ones that, you know, feel completely unreasonable. And I have a feeling when we do that, we're going to come to a good place.

• 2:09:23Speaker 04

  So again, you can see there's that like hope I'm giving. Like I hold the positive outcome. Same team. I'm giving my kid credit in advance. It's actually like really, it's usually the opposite of what teens feel, which is just my parents don't even listen to me or care and think they have all the answers.

• 2:09:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've heard this notion of, you know, couple parents come first and kids come second. And some people are probably like, what? You know, well, clearly never parented. Ah, well, no, actually, it's an interesting idea, perhaps not correct or incorrect, but maybe dynamic across time where the real question is if kids know that they are running the family in terms of what they do or their inability to not be attended to, et cetera, is driving the whole relationship that the parents are in.

• 2:10:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Versus, you know, recognizing, and here I'm imagining two parent home, but we could talk about divorced or people with significant others or single parent homes. And all of those. You kind of wonder like, are kids really paying attention to how much they are being prioritized to the point where if they observe their parents tending to their own needs, that they feel deprivation? Or is it make them feel safer? Like, hey, mom and or dad are taking care of themselves and can show up better?

• 2:10:46Speaker 04

  Yes, I think that is critically important. And it kind of goes again to boundaries like of a parent. Like my relationship with my kid is so important. And I'm not gonna let that take over me. Like, that is not all of me. I am not only a caregiver to my kid. Like, I would stand by that all day long. Like, is that an important part of me? And it's still a part of me. And I think this is really important to own as a parent. Because, again, we tend to get, like, we get apologists for it, or we look for our kid's permission. We'll say, "Look, I need to go out with Dad without you, okay? Like, we have a relationship too." Like, and we, again, there's that job confusion. And my kid feels that. And, again, it's that kind of giving them too much power. I've said this to my kids a lot. So they'll say, "Why do you go out with Dad without me?"

• 2:11:30Speaker 04

  I'll say, "It's a great question. You know, first of all, Dad and I were married before we had kids. Our relationship is really important to us. And we love being with you. And being with you is different than just being the two of us. And that really, really matters to us. And so, you don't have to be happy about it. You can, you, and let's say I have a babysitter I know they're safe with. You can cry when I leave, and the babysitter will hold you, and we're gonna go out to dinner, and we're gonna come back, and, you know, I'll see you in the morning." Yeah, I think that is so important. I actually think, this is another topic, like, this topic of, like, rage in parenthood is, like, a big topic. Like, the way, why, like, why do I get to these moments of rage so often? That my screaming, it's not just screaming at my kids, it's really rageful.

• 2:12:15Speaker 04

  And I think the parents often, who are the most vulnerable to that, are the ones where they're not make, they're not meeting, like, any of their non-caregiving needs. Which makes sense, that a part of them is, like, screaming out. Like, "What about me? I used to go to dance class. I used to see friends. I used to go out with my partner and talk about things other than, you know, our kids." And so, again, if, I think a kid's need a sturdy leader, right? More than anything else, and sturdiness is not allowing yourself to be taken over by any one thing, including your relationship with your kid.

• 2:12:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is it truly better for there to be two sturdy leaders than one sturdy leader? I realize this is a controversial question.

• 2:12:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I know, and I know there's research to back this up, that, like, having one kind of sturdy leader in your life is massively protective. I really believe that. And so, when parents will say, "My partner isn't," I'm like... We have research, this is true, is two better than one? I don't know the research, like, probably, I don't know, you know? But what I think is important in there too, is what's not great for kids is having like, all the caregivers be some like perfectly attuned caregiver, right? Like, that actually does not set up your kid for life at all, right? Because I don't know anyone who thinks the partner I'm gonna be with one day is gonna be perfectly attuned to all my needs, let me go find that person.

• 2:13:37Speaker 04

  So, you know, you have one sturdy leader, you have two, but like, being sturdy, part of that is you're gonna, you're gonna rupture, you're gonna rupture, you're gonna mess up, you're gonna hopefully repair, you know, after. But sturdiness, I just wanna make clear, is so not the same as like perfection. Perfection is creepy, it's not a thing, no one needs that.

• 2:13:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love that. So first time I've laughed out loud on this podcast about a statement like that. Yeah, the notion of perfection is kind of creepy. But sturdiness is anything but creepy. There's, it's just such a beautiful word for all the right reasons. What about behavioral examples in parents? So for instance, if children observe parents being affectionate to one another in appropriate ways, right? You know, attending to one another in boundaried but empathically attuned ways. Do you think that projects forward into their notion of what adult relationships are like and should be like?

• 2:14:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Conversely, if parents are yelling at one another, do you think that projects forward into it's okay to yell in adult relationships?

• 2:14:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I think kids are, they're expert noticers. They notice everything, right? It's part of how they've learned to survive as such helpless, you know, humans. So, they definitely notice, they definitely act like sponges. So yes, if you're, you know, kind of privileged enough in that way to grow up in a home, or you have parents who in general are fairly affectionate, they take responsibility for their stuff, they communicate in a healthy way, I think that is like a true privilege you go into adulthood with, yes.

• 2:15:18Speaker 04

  The other extreme, right? You grow up with parents who, you know, they yell or they can even yell in scary voices. Again, what I think is really important is the witnessing of that isn't going to be as impactful to a kid as the witnessing of it and nobody naming it and talking to them about it. So this is why so often like kids will be in difficult stages, intense tantrums, major issues at school and someone's like, what do I do? Like, what do I do with this? Well, I gave you all the strategies in the world, but if that is just your kid's way of kind of manifesting all of their struggles with this like huge marital conflict that's happening, it's not going to work. So it's all part of the same system. And so saying to your kid after you fight with your partner, hey, I think you heard

• 2:16:03Speaker 04

  daddy and I screaming and I'm sure that felt scary because it does feel scary because they know you're their base. So if their base is of a house is like, you know, feels like an earthquake, it feels scary like, and you know, another line I like is like, you were right to notice that we were using loud voices. Again, I think that's massively confidence, you know, building. Maybe what was that like for you? Or if you have a little kid, just that's enough, you know? And they might look at you and say like, can I have my snack now? But it's still really sunk in. So if there is a lot of conflict, again, I think it's really important, we, we talk about that with our kids and don't leave them alone.

• 2:16:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  What about teens that are really wayward? And this could be behavioral outbursts. There's also the whole underside of this thing where it's also about withdrawal. Like the kids are withdrawn. I mean, we were talking about outbursts and yelling. There's also the example in parents or the instances in kids that there's like really withdrawn.

• 2:16:56Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:16:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  That they're just like disengaged.

• 2:17:00Speaker 04

  Depressed.

• 2:17:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Depressed, maybe even dissociative, who knows? But not good.

• 2:17:06Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:17:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  And this can show up on one end is violence, on the other end is isolation. It can show up as eating disorders. It can show up as all sorts of things. You know? Intervention before age 18 is quote unquote easier in the sense that one has legal control. But oftentimes, it's hard for parents to know, like, how bad is this?

• 2:17:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:17:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  And, you know, I did an entire episode about cannabis, and I spoke to some of the medical benefits of cannabis for adults who are non-addicts, but I also talked a lot about some of the risks. But let's take an example that I think is pretty common, like, kids 15, 16, start smoking some THC with their friends, and you go, okay, well, everyone does that, quote unquote, not as bad as alcohol, which I think is a lame argument. This is lame. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, you're getting hit by a, you know, cars and bags, getting hit by a train, but okay. But the point is, you know, most all parents, like, okay, you know, clearly they're self-medicating, you know, can't, they think they can't stop them, but you can't stop them. You know, at what point do you then take, you know, you put them into a residential

• 2:18:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  treatment program, if you could even afford that? I mean, it's really tough for people to know how much to intervene in what is clearly not good behavior, and it sometimes can be bad behavior, and yet the kids are using it to self-medicate, and there's a peer system that sometimes reinforces that.

• 2:18:27Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:18:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, this is a huge landscape.

• 2:18:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:18:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Maybe we have you back to talk just about this, but, but maybe we can presage that discussion, but by, like, what do you tell people in your, in your practice? Like, get in there now, pull the emergency cord and get this handled? Or do you say, listen, you just gotta work with the, you know, work with the system? Tough problem I'm throwing at you here, but...

• 2:18:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the first thing is, like, how do I, as a parent, like, kind of even assess, it's like, this, like, is this normal? Is it not normal? Is it a problem? Is it not? So I think there's a couple, like, things we could think about there. Number one, just seeing, like, impact on overall functioning is always, like, one barometer, right? So, okay, can my child perform the kind of tasks of their developmental stage? Okay, so this is not the only thing, but like, are they still going to school? Wow, I noticed since they smoking, they're smoking a lot of weeds, their grades went from Bs to Ds, like, okay, they don't care about school anymore. They used to actually go out with friends. Now, unless they're with this one crew where they smoke in the park, like, they're not even seeing these kids they used to be friends with. They don't want to go to family functions anymore. They used to play soccer.

• 2:19:35Speaker 04

  Like, if I'm answering this, I'd be like, wow, I'm not really talking just about a marijuana problem. I'm talking about my kid not engaging in kind of like the developmental tasks. That, I would say... Is just like, it's time to seek additional support. Right? Another sign is just kind of how, how limited their world has become because of this. Right? So again, has this kind of taken over everything they do? My kid is depressed, let's say, or, you know, and all of a sudden their world has gotten really, really small. And it's not just that, that's the way they've always lived. Like, there's a big, there's a big change. The amount of conflict in the home. Again, like, is there conflict when you have teens? Of course there is.

• 2:20:16Speaker 04

  But like, wow, like, is it really hard to talk to my teen for more than four minutes? Walking on eggshells to me is also a sign that we need additional help. Am I scared to intervene in a way that would actually be in line with my values? That's not a good sign. Right? Then the other thing I just want to make sure everyone knows is, I mean, like, seeking additional help is a sign of every single thing that's right with the family. And I think we think it's a sign of something that's wrong. And it's like, also a sign of what's right to your, in terms of messaging that to your kid. Again, I think about a kid who I used to saw, see in my practice. She was probably 16 when she came to me. She was cutting, serious, right? And I remember saying, just intake, hey, how long have you been doing this? She said, two years. Oh, like, did you see another therapist before you saw me? She's like, no.

• 2:21:00Speaker 04

  She was like, very like, kind of, you know, kind of quippy and quick. And I was just like, why? And she's like, well, I told my parents that if they took me to a therapist, I would go and I would just waste all their money. I'd be quiet. And then when they left me there, I would just leave. And who's going to stop a 14-year-old from walking away? And they might as well save their money because they can't make me. Okay? And again, I just kind of sensed to stay quiet. And she's seriously, one of the next things she said is, can you believe they let me make that decision? Literally said that.

• 2:21:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow. Validates everything you've said up until now.

• 2:21:33Speaker 04

  And it is. This is why, this is where like, I feel like I get my best ideas. Like, that's right. Like, a 14-year-old can convince her parent that she won't go to therapy when she's cutting? Like, that, that is not okay. And again, then we go to, okay, so I'm going to say to my kid, you are going. I'm like, no, there's so much between that. We're in these binary states. Your kid's feelings about therapy cannot dictate your boundary. Right? But we can't just then come down harshly. And so I coach parents in this all the time. What do you say to a kid? I love you. Hear me. I love you.

• 2:22:07Speaker 04

  We're in a tough stage. I see this problem and I do think even when our kids get older, we can say this, my number one job is to keep you safe. It is not to keep you happy with me. And I actually love you so much that I'm willing to do things that make you unhappy with me. That is actually how much I care about you. And so I am going to be driving you. And if you want to like curse at me the whole time, I will sit in that waiting room. And you know, I'm going to do the next week, I'm going to tell you I love you. I'm going to do the same thing. And I think adults hearing that on some level, there's some internal truth of like, I probably needed that. Like that feels oddly good because there's like, you know, I'm not messing around.

• 2:22:52Speaker 04

  But there's this way where as parents we've said, like, the way to show my kid I'm not messing around is to be mean to them. Like, there was nothing mean about what I said. I think it was more loving than saying to a kid, okay, let me know when you want to go. That is not loving. And so I think like our teens, sometimes in those moments, they need us to do our job and like be the pilot. Like they, it is this small amount of time where they're still a passenger. When they're 18, they are the pilot. And so we have this window.

• 2:23:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's nothing I want to probe more into that. I think you captured it beautifully. And it gets back to this issue of safety, like in letting them make their own decision when they're clearly in trouble. Like, if anything could make a kid feel unsafe, a teen or younger or adult, it's that.

• 2:23:36Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 2:23:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's like laying the passenger on the plane. Be like, hey, instead of rerouting, how about you just come up here and fly?

• 2:23:43Speaker 04

  That's exactly, that's literally what it is. And they're like, I can't believe you believed my little protest. Now I'm in the cockpit. Like this, they don't, they don't want that. That's why their words, teens' words, it's not that we don't believe them. Like, as I just said, I'm believing their words often are a representation of their fears. All of us in our worst moments. Get out. Like, I feel like sometimes like that's their fear. Or like, they're kind of talking to their emotion. They're so like, they're not really talking to you in that moment. They're so dysregulated and like, just learning to like, not take it so literally and be like, what am I really believing? My kid is in pain, they're cutting. My kid is in pain, they're smoking weed 30 times a day and don't go to class. Like, I'm the, like, I know that they, that they need help.

• 2:24:27Speaker 04

  And again, any parent who can say that, like, to me is like the strongest parent and that is such a sign of health.

• 2:24:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't think I'd still be alive today if it wasn't for non-parent mentors and just examples in the world. These aren't always people that were like, hey, I'm gonna take you under my wing and be your mentor. Actually, that was rarely the case. But people in my real life or in my, you know, reading, or, you know, there wasn't YouTube back then. But sometimes now, you know, people I've, I'm a huge fan, for instance, of these Jungian psychologists, James Hollis, who has these beautiful lectures on making a life. And I'm learning so much, like, I consider him a mentor. Sorry, James, you didn't have a choice. You're a mentor. But these people that we can internalize certain healthy aspects

• 2:25:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  that our parents just, just apparently can't seem to arrange for themselves.

• 2:25:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:25:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that we wish they had. But I think that we, as children of all ages, like, we want perfect parents. We don't get them. But it seems appropriate to me, I'd love your thoughts, it seems appropriate to me to have, you know, kind of a foraging for examples of where we can get certain things that we can internalize for ourselves so that we can benefit that maybe our parents just aren't interested in, capable of, or even alive to provide us anymore.

• 2:25:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that like, being everything to someone, like, I don't want my kids to ever say that about me. My mom was everything. She fulfilled my every need. Again, I do find that creepy whenever, I don't know, and like, and just setting them up for so much relationship disappointment. My mom gave some things and, you know, we, now that I also work a lot of time with my kids, like, there is this mom, like, when kids have a sleepover at her house, I mean, it is the best sleepover experience. Like, I see pictures, I'm like, wow, that was so thoughtful. That was amazing. She's like, she puts together, she's creative, like, and me and my kids joke, like, they're like,

• 2:26:29Speaker 04

  yeah, Mom, you're like, bottom of the list in that stuff. And I am. I am. And like, I know I'm toward the top of the list in other things. I don't, I don't want to be toward that. First of all, I don't want to hold myself to that standard. That's like a great way to implode. So, yeah, being able to say to my kid, oh, you guys want to have a sleepover? You'd rather go to her house? Because that's Okay, that's not an indictment of me. And so maybe this is some quote mentor like figure for someone who can like, put these details and make people feel really taken care of in that way. That's great. And I think, yes, giving your kid permission and encouragement, again, I think is such a gift to them later on. Like, yeah, our relationship with our kids becomes not only the foundation, their expectations for their relationship with other adults.

• 2:27:11Speaker 04

  I also think it's literally what they're attracted to. I think when they're attracted to someone later on, it's just the activation of that like earliest attachment. And so if they can get activated around someone who seems to be pretty attuned and respectful and validating and boundaried, because they also have other things in their life and not everything. Like, that's a privilege to say, that's what I'm expecting. So I think those other relationships and as a parent, to hear your kid say, my coach taught me this thing. And sometimes they say it in a catty way. So much better than what you said to do at lacrosse. Just to like, take a deep breath. And again, this is where you can say like, like, I'm still a good parent, even outside this moment. That's, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. I believe you.

• 2:27:56Speaker 04

  Tell me more about this. Like, such a beautiful example for your kid.

• 2:28:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  So being able to validate and embrace the fact that there are other sources of healthy upbringing is, you know, not just perhaps, is clearly a good thing. Do I have that right?

• 2:28:11Speaker 04

  I think that's right. And I think if that's hard for a parent, what I'd say is like, it's a question without an exact answer. But like, where did I learn that I'm supposed to be everything to someone? Like, and is that, and I think a lot of women, we learn that in our families of origin to be good girls, which really just means I have no wants and needs of my own. And I just kind of gaze out and see how I can do things for you and I can be everything for you. And then we have kids, we don't realize we put that on to them. But like you said, those patterns travel with us. And I find it like very relieving to be like, maybe if I don't, wow, it just gave me like a good percentage of energy back. Like, I can, I can do like so many other things now, you know? It's very, it's like empowering.

• 2:28:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. Something that it's an unpleasant topic, just by as soon as people hear the word, but it's something that I think comes up on the child's side, the teen's side and the parenting side, and in adult relationships of all kind, which is the dreaded entitlement.

• 2:29:14Speaker 04

  Ooh, dirty word of parenting.

• 2:29:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Entitlement. Maybe we could put some definition on entitlement and talk about when it's bad. Is it always bad? When it's neutral and when it's, I don't know, is it ever good? I don't know. Entitlement doesn't sound like it's ever good, but.

• 2:29:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. There is a healthy entitlement, right? And I think that is kind of the entitlement to like, I'm allowed to want things and I'm allowed to at moments in my life even act on that, to turn that want into a fulfillment of my want. I think that actually goes back to what we were just saying, like versus how can I please you? Like, maybe I want to do something. So I think that healthy entitlement, that's a good thing. But when I think, when I hear parents say like, please, I just don't want an entitled kid, they're not talking about that, right? And they're talking about, and to me, the story from my practice is just the key thing that makes us parents cringe, was this family of seeing in New York City and they were, they were very wealthy and they had the 16-year-old son and they were flying back from Hawaii or to Hawaii and they were just getting ready

• 2:30:15Speaker 04

  to board and first class was boarding and the sun goes up and they're like, oh, so we were not like in first class, we have to wait. He had basically a full tantrum in the airport. Like every parent's worst nightmare, literally. And they came to me after just being like, how did we, like, how did we get here? Right? Now, this is a family. In general, it's true, they flew first class, they had private planes, had a lot of, you know, money. But entitlement to me doesn't always have to be about money. I'm going to give you my definition of entitlement. I think it's very different. But to me, the definition, like boundaries, is useful because it gives you a pathway of what to do. I think entitlement is the fear of frustration.

• 2:30:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Beautiful.

• 2:30:58Speaker 04

  Because if we go back, okay, that thing didn't start at 16. And if we started, you know, I started kind of collecting stories and, right? This is a kid who that, and again, like they had a driver. There's nothing wrong with having a driver. But I'm just thinking about like waiting for a subway. It's frustrating. Just missed the subway. We're gonna be late. Like, no, right? This was a kid who didn't make, instead of see it older, remember like didn't make the soccer team. Don't worry, we have someone who's gonna take you to the nearby town in New Jersey and get on that soccer team. Right? Um, and I think about what this kid started to learn about being frustrated. And it was kind of like frustration comes up.

• 2:31:41Speaker 04

  And what gets layered next to it is someone else bringing you an exit. Frustration, exit from frustration, maybe even exit to success. Right? And then I started to think like, well, what would it be like if there was 16 years of kind of getting, because it doesn't happen of that pattern and that circuit reinforcing? Because what you're really learning as a kid, I'm frustrated, and that's very overwhelming for me. But like the adults around me must be scared of my frustration because they won't let me sit in it. They won't let me feel it. They will actually kind of run in circles to, to not have me feel. So I actually encode my frustration next to fear.

• 2:32:25Speaker 04

  Now I'm 16 and I'm expecting first class and I get, you know, lowly coach, you know? It's not, people are like, oh, what a spoiled kid. Like, I actually, I, I feel like this kid was like insanely vulnerable in that moment. This kid was like, I'm frustrated and what I expect to happen and what I know to happen isn't here. And so it is explosive. It appears as entitlement on the surface, but it is a deep intolerance and almost fear of frustration, which is in your body. So you're terrified of a feeling that is living in your body. And it looks demanding because it kind of is desperate. Like you can't let this happen.

• 2:33:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 2:33:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Fear of frustration as the definition of entitlement lands like square in the bullseye for me. And yet, yes, I think we all default to the kind of stereotypical example of the ultra wealthy family kid. There was that movie The Toy in the eighties. It was really dreadful concept, actually, you know, a kid that was just given everything and then wanted a person. It was really like, talk about foul. I mean, it's just, you know, just bad at every level. And then they tried to, you know, create this narrative where then, you know, there's a deeper understanding about humans and stuff that evolves from it. But, but the starting point was, you know, and I, I've observed this in certainly not my family, but other families

• 2:33:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  where kids are given everything they want. It never feels like enough. Big surprise. Dopamine is a real thing. The circuits recalibrate to a higher threshold. They want more and more and more. It's like that movie Wall Street. What's your number? More. Okay. All right. Nothing wrong with wanting things, but with, without a ceiling on any of that and without a ceiling on, on pleasure or bounds on experience, it crushes everybody. That's also what that movie was about. It just crushes people. So to build that into a child's neurology just seems like the worst possible thing. Because it's not about the world being a

• 2:34:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  place of immense possibility. It's about the world being a place of, of like snakes in broken glass everywhere, except this narrow knife edge path that you follow that is all about infinite resources.

• 2:34:50Speaker 04

  And ease. That's right. And I, when I think it's fear is because if you're in fear, you're in like a threat state, which is why it, when kids are in that state or adults, it seems like nasty, like, and it's mean when you're, you know, and there's this like narrowing of your eyes, right? So I think that's really, you know, what's happening. And it's not, it's not always tied to money, but the truth is, and Like money can easily buy a kid's way out of frustration. And by the way, it buys the parent out of having to tolerate their frustration while the kid is frustrated. And so it's tricky. I think I've now like, you know, talked to a bunch of parents who grew up in a very different way, were very successful.

• 2:35:31Speaker 04

  And I get it. They're like, I feel like I've, I've earned, I've literally have earned the right to have certain parts of my life be a lot easier. Right? And like, how do I though not, how do I raise a kid who isn't entitled? Right? And it is a conundrum. Right? I guess I would think like, you know, we raise our, raise our kids in a candy store. It's hard to expect them to appreciate candy. Right? And so like, how do we, how do we balance that gratitude, the entitlement? And I do think though, that idea is like, we just have to, and sometimes like other people hearing this would be like, yeah, like my life is frustrating all the time. And some peoples are, right? They won't end up with entitlement. But for other families, they almost have to be like, I, I have to like dose it.

• 2:36:13Speaker 04

  I have to make sure my kids literally have experiences and I probably have to go through it too. Where we are almost like purposefully making sure they get enough of that, you know? So they can build different circuits.

• 2:36:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. So much to unpack there. I, I think,

• 2:36:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  it's clear that some of this is tied to financial means. I think it's a, it's a pretty scary thing when someone looks out on the landscape of the world as infinite possibility, without any frustration.

• 2:36:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  As we talked about earlier, the ability to lean into hard things as, as a skill that can extend to other things is, is so valuable. Do you think that some of the smaller practices that any kid, any parent, any family, regardless of means, can lean into can really help there? Like, like, like, You know, some people say grace or a prayer before a meal, others simply express gratitude. But you know, stopping and thinking about, you know, I mean, being breathing, being ambulatory, being any number of of good things that allow us agency in life, about to eat food. I mean, those those moments, I I think I think are, I know that our nervous system reflects on those.

• 2:37:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:37:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  How could they not? And just recognizing that at least something went into the creation of the the meal.

• 2:37:35Speaker 04

  I think for like the entitlement stuff and the frustration, like there's all these small moments that we can start to make a difference. And I think it's saying to yourself, just because I can, doesn't mean I will. So like my kid's young and I pick them up from a play date. And like, let's say I have a babysitter at home or my husband at home. And I'm like, I have to go to a store on some errands. My kid's like, can you drop me off first? Maybe I'm like, you know what, like, no, like, you're gonna come with me. And I'm not gonna say it this way, on boring errands, because you just have to tolerate that like, sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do. And like, you're not gonna learn that by me telling you that. You're gonna learn that by experiencing that. You know, something with my kids, you know, the other day, we were at an airport and like

• 2:38:20Speaker 04

  there were, you know, in the airport, like it kind of winds around like to get, and there's like no one there. So I started to like duck under all the like things. And it just made me think like, as a small moment, like entitlement also was like, the rules don't apply to me in some ways. I was like, and I just remember you guys when we're in airports.

• 2:38:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, that the the lines that leading up to security.

• 2:38:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. And you can duck inside and you like mess them up. And it wasn't like forever, but I was like, you guys, like, these things, someone put these here for a reason and we're just gonna, it's like, like, I, these things have to be such, it's a small amount of frustration. But it's just like, I don't always get to duck the line. Sometimes I have to like walk a little longer. I remember my kid saying, and I'm not immune to this, like, I am in a financial position where I have someone come, sometimes help me be my housekeeper, right? And she'll fold the laundry. I remember on a Sunday, my son said to me, when he was younger, like, why do we have to fold the laundry? Kind of like, I don't think he said it, but he was kind of like, don't we have someone, you know, who could do that? And I remember being like, this is a moment where I could be. We're gonna fold the laundry on Sundays. You know who loves folding laundry? Maybe some people like, I don't. I don't love undoing the dishwasher.

• 2:39:23Speaker 04

  It is inherently not that enjoyable. But like, and so frustrating. It's just like, not great. And like, I know I need to make my kids do that. Like, they just have to go through that mundane thing. And so I think there's all of these moments, taking your kid with you on errands, you know, doing the laundry, right? Before you say to your kid, let's go to try out on another soccer team. And just like, oh, you didn't make the team. Maybe, maybe let it go two days. That's at least two more days of feeling upset and frustrated. Right? They don't have to be these big, grand things, but all of those little moments can add up in a really positive way.

• 2:39:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's your stance on household chores? And should kids be paid for household chores?

• 2:40:03Speaker 04

  Um, yes. I have a whole guide to chores and allowance. And I actually, you know, I think there's a lot of thought, like, should they be separate? I don't know. I think it could be done either way. But to me, the question for a parent is like, what is the point for me? Like, what is my goal for chores? What is my goal for allowance? Right? And I think that has to then structure how we do it. So my guess is for chores, part of it is I want my kid to, number one, maybe like help around the house, want them to have that purpose. Also, like, I know for me, for chores, like, sometimes your life involves doing boring things. That is just true. And like, I want my kids to know that, which means they have to experience it. That's one of the reasons we do chores. So for me, if that's one of the reasons, I'm not gonna pay my kid.

• 2:40:46Speaker 04

  Because for me, in my family, what I think my kids need to get out of it, is just like, knowing that sometimes you do boring things is part of being a good human. For someone else, that might be totally different. So I think we just ask ourselves as parents, like, what am I trying to accomplish? And then let me structure it around that.

• 2:41:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Across the course of today's discussion, I've been feeling both immense gratitude and relief for certain, quote unquote, hardships that I experienced. And things that my parents made me do, or ways that they were negligent, and I was forced to figure things out. Also, you know, some things where I was like, huh, like, wish they had done this. I think everyone listening to this will feel that way. And if you're lucky enough to still be in the parenting child or being a child process, then there's still time. So I guess there's always still time.

• 2:41:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  In my introduction to this episode, I touched on a few of these, but tell us what you're doing these days to help parents and kids indirectly or directly to be more effective in their relationships. And, you know, I know you've written about this in books and you have a wonderful social media account on Instagram and elsewhere. I follow it. And it's there's oh, so much learning there. But, you know, how are you translating this knowledge into actionable programs?

• 2:42:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, that is my, like, that is what gets me out of bed every morning is translating. I always say, deep thoughts, actionable, practical, can do with today's strategies.

• 2:42:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yes.

• 2:42:14Speaker 04

  That's the, that's the only way I can work. I'm like, tell me what to do to put that idea into action.

• 2:42:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Love it.

• 2:42:18Speaker 04

  So, you know, a couple of years ago, one of the things that really struck me was just like, I really did feel angry. Like, this is so messed up. We, parents have the hardest job, and it's the one that impacts the world the most. And I don't think any of us think the world is in like, a great place right now.

• 2:42:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Nah, it's not.

• 2:42:36Speaker 04

  Right. And this is, and I remember someone coming up to me and saying, parenting is also the only job you care about on your deathbed. And I think that's probably true if you have kids. So like, for every reason, this should be the place that they're, like, that we invest the most, or that the system is like, set up to help us, right? And most people I know, they don't want to parent the exact same way as they were parented, maybe take parts. And that is the way we'll parent, just kind of the language we use. And learning a new language we know is totally possible. Like, Duolingo has showed us that. You can learn a new language. It's hard. Sometimes you revert to your language of origin, especially in stressful moments, same thing in parenting, and then you go back. And so I remember saying to some people around me, like, I want to create that, like,

• 2:43:21Speaker 04

  kind of Duolingo for parents. It is learning a new language. And we should have a product where we have resources in one place. We should be able to connect to other parents around the globe. We're kind of doing this with us. We should have access to experts we trust, not because they always know better, but they might just help us have a different mindset and some ideas to help us again. And me, my mind is just act more in line with your own values. That's what it's about. And so that's what we created. And that's what I'm working on. And that's our Good Inside membership. So excited about all the ways, you know, that's already impacting tens and tens of thousands of parents and that's where the resources are. It's bite sized, it's actionable. We're really known for our scripts. It's like, what do I say to my kid? When? Like,

• 2:44:05Speaker 04

  literally a joke. We have a script for that. And I think in a small way, people like say, like, I come for the scripts and then I stay for the revolution. Like, this is actually a journey of my own sturdiness. And honestly, becoming a sturdier, more confident leader is the only way we can raise sturdy, more confident kids.

• 2:44:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I've said this again and again throughout today's discussion, but I love it. I love the gathering of information, the organizing it and dispersing it in actionable ways. And you've done all of that and you're continuing to do that. And you also have the clinical background and you're a parent. So you're speaking from professional and immediate experience and you put oh, so much work into it. I can tell that by the directness and simplicity of the actionables that you've taught us today, and also how much resides underneath those direct, simple actionables. Just beautiful. I've had many conversations

• 2:45:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  on this podcast with many brilliant people, including yourself, but this is among the ones that I really say has really me thinking. And I don't think I've ever said wow so many times during the discussion here. And there's just so much knowledge to be gleaned from today's discussion, thanks to you. And just on behalf of myself and everyone listening, parents and kids and those who want to be parents and those who don't, and who have made the choice not to and are certainly engaged in other forms of relationship. This is just absolute gold that you've provided us. So, thank you ever so much. Your generosity,

• 2:45:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  your clarity of communication and the heart behind it really comes through. So, thank you.

• 2:45:56Speaker 04

  Thank you so much.

• 2:45:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about parent-child and other types of relationships with Dr. Becky Kennedy. To learn more about Dr. Kennedy's work, please see the links in the show note captions, including the links to her bestselling book, Good Inside, and to the online learning platform for better parenting. You can also find links to her social media accounts. As I mentioned during today's episode, she has a terrific Instagram account in which she regularly posts practical tools for better parenting and other types of relationships. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. Please check

• 2:46:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions or comments about the podcast, or topics or guests that you'd like to suggest for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. If you haven't already subscribed to our monthly Neural Network newsletter, our Neural

• 2:47:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Network newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that includes podcast summaries and protocols as short, one-to-three-page PDFs. For instance, we have zero-cost protocols for improving sleep, for improving dopamine function, for deliberate cold exposure, for fitness, for learning and neuroplasticity, and much more. To sign up for the newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and supply your email. Again, the newsletter is completely zero-cost, and I want to emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.