Pod Insights How to Be a Better Human How to use your muscles — or risk losing them (w/ Bonnie Tsui) About this episode Did you know that you start losing bone AND muscle mass as soon as the age of thirty? Or that your fingers and toes don’t have muscles? Or how women in Scotland are starting to compete in the lighting of Dinnie Stones – which weighs 733 pounds?! These are topics that Chris discussed with Bonnie Tsui, author of the book On Muscle: The Stuff That Moves Us and Why It Matters. They also discuss what strength and weightlifting means in today’s society – especially as more women enter the sport. Bonnie and Chris also discuss studying martial arts, playing on sports teams, and the benefits of functional mobility as you age.
Watch
Bonnie teaches Chris to surf: https://youtu.be/YOryOy1qL00
Bonnie and Chris' interview: https://youtu.be/Z3WnwLtVUes
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Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | https://chrisduffycomedy.com/)
Guest: Bonnie Tsui (Instagram: @bonnietsui8 https://www.instagram.com/bonnietsui8/?hl=en | Website: https://www.bonnietsui.com/)
Links
Humor Me by Chris Duffy (https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL)
Buy Bonnie's book On Muscle: https://tinyurl.com/onmuscle
Newsletter: https://www.bonnietsui.com/events
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bonnietsui
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bonnie-tsui-71a57775
Threads: https://www.threads.com/@bonnietsui8
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/bonnietsui
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0:34 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court, and that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.
1:22 Chris Duffy? You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. This episode that you're about to hear is a really special one because we went out in person to meet with today's guest, Bonnie Tsui. She's the author of the books On Muscle and Why We Swim. And I got to talk to her about exercise and strength and the surprising ways that muscles affect all aspects of our lives. But I didn't just talk to her. I went surfing with her, and I did a humiliating workout, and we filmed the whole thing for a short film and video series that we made. I'm genuinely so thrilled with how it turned out. I think it is so fun and so funny and really different than anything else we've made. You can watch that video series now on Ted's YouTube channel. So please check that out. But first, listen to this episode. Here's Bonnie.
2:05 Speaker 02 You know, if you stopped 100 people on the street and asked them, what do you think of when you think of the word muscle? I think there is a very specific kind of body, stereotypically, and a very particular kind of person who gets to have that body. And oftentimes, it's... Someone who's in the gym, someone who's a bodybuilder, someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? And I think that what I learned from the last several years of researching on muscle is that it goes so much deeper than that. And that strength is something that also is very metaphorical. And I couldn't help but, over the course of writing this book, start
2:47 Speaker 02 to think of muscle as a philosophy, where there are all these characteristics of muscle, the tangible stuff, right? So, strength and form and, you know, action, that it is the stuff that actually moves us, and flexibility and endurance. And these are not just qualities of muscle, but they are qualities that we strive for in personhood. And I think that's very moving, that's very profound. And so to kind of like, think about the body as not just this vehicle we occupy for a certain period of time on earth, but is something that if we think about it in a certain way, it elevates like who we want to be in the
3:28 Speaker 02 world. Muscle is something that you can only get stronger, you can only strengthen a muscle by stressing it, by pushing it, by challenging it. And that's something that I think we all understand. We can look at life as something that always is stressing us, is always throwing these challenges at us. I know it's just a really good life lesson.
3:52 Chris Duffy? Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but we will be back with more life lessons in just a moment.
4:12 Chris Duffy? We're talking muscles, capability, and what it means to be strong with Bonnie Tsui.
4:17 Speaker 02 Hi, my name is Bonnie Tsui. I'm a journalist and author of the books On Muscle and Why We Swim. And I write a lot about the body and movement and humans in the world.
4:29 Chris Duffy? So Bonnie, you wrote the book on muscle. What did writing a book about muscles teach you about how to actually make your muscles stronger?
4:39 Speaker 02 I felt my body tensing as you asked that question. Which I think indicates that I've really internalized this lesson of we all need to be using our muscles and lifting heavy. I know that is an intimidating thing to hear, especially because so much of the population has not been told that. But I think what has been a sea change over the last several years, even really like the last like year and a half, is that the kind of strength training and weightlifting that has long been historically like this province of men. And again, like these bodies that are particular kinds of bodies.
5:23 Speaker 02 That is something that the medical establishment, your doctor will be telling you and your mom and your grandmother is that is something that they have to be doing. And I think that is incredible and also something that expands the idea of muscle for all of us, right? So I think understanding that muscle is not just for looks, like having a beautiful muscular body is one thing. But I think this all goes back to what I learned from growing up, having the dad I had, who was not just an artist, but a martial artist. I think this was so integral to my growing up in getting me to understand from a very
6:08 Speaker 02 early age that the body is beautiful because of what it can do. Right? And so to strengthen your muscles, to go to a gym to like lift heavy, to go, you know, it is not about looking good, although of course we all want to look good. Right? Like it helps us to reinforce that we are projecting an image of ourselves that we think is like the right image or like who I am or what the presentation of myself in the world, my identity. But if you understand that these muscles that you're building are helping you to live.
6:38 Speaker 02 A better life, a longer life, a healthier life, one that helps your cognitive health. Like your muscles are always talking to your brain and having conversations that you don't hear. I think that's really cool. One thing that I learned was that muscles are not just for like moving you around mechanically, but they are an endocrine tissue. And so they're always talking. They're super chatty. They are releasing these signaling molecules that travel all around your body to talk to all these different parts of it, including your brain and are telling your brain to do certain beneficial things. And then your brain says, okay, and then starts doing them. And then there's this like beautiful conversation that's happening and that flow, like this beautiful
7:22 Speaker 02 wash of like molecules all around your body to make you feel good.
7:27 Chris Duffy? You said that pretty much everyone, like there's this big change that now pretty much everyone should be lifting heavy. So I want to ask you how and why? I don't personally, like just for me.
7:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:40 Chris Duffy? Right now, I almost never lift weights. That's just not really a thing that I do.
7:45 Speaker 02 Right.
7:46 Chris Duffy? And I would be shocked to learn if my mom was lifting weights.
7:50 Speaker 02 Right.
7:50 Chris Duffy? So what should we be doing? And then why should we be doing that? What is the thing that has actually changed about that?
7:56 Speaker 02 Most of us understand that as we get older, we lose bone mass, right? And so like, most people have heard of osteoporosis and they're like, oh, you know, I gotta strengthen my bones. And as I get older, you know, there's like an age-related loss of bone and that's called osteopenia. Same thing happens with muscles and less people are familiar with the fact that in your 30s, sorry everyone, you start losing muscle and it's normal, right? So it's like age-related muscle mass that happens like whether or not you're an athlete or it is normal for everyone. And so what that really means is that in your 30s, you need to start thinking about who you want to be. And what you want to be capable of doing in your 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond.
8:39 Speaker 02 And I think a lot of people don't think that way. But I think if you understand that lifting heavy just really means like it's hard, it feels hard. And so you lift a weight that is challenging for you. And then I like to tell people that that means only means that you have to lift it like eight to 10 times. And then you're out of there. And then you come back and you're like to work all the different parts of your body in ways that will challenge them. And then when that weight gets lighter and easier, then you kind of move on to the next one. And I think the point is like, all kinds of movement is important, all kinds of exercise, the stuff that really brings you joy. And adding folding in like the weightlifting is like resistance training.
9:23 Speaker 02 That you can do that, like by going to the gym, you can do that with friends. You can do that by like, like psychologically. You do need a little bit of activation energy to start, right? So, but that most gyms like give you like a free session with a trainer. And you should be like honest with like that person. What do I want to be doing with my life that I can't do? I want to be able to get that can off the high shelf. I want to be able to go up the stairs without feeling this way. I want to be able to like pick up my grandkids when I see them. It's like small things like that, doesn't have to be that, but it could be that you like want to do an Ironman. You want to do, um, you want to swim to like this, like late age in your life. But that all of that is supported by your muscles in a way that I think people don't realize.
10:07 Chris Duffy? Actually, a thing that people ask me all the time about this show is like, what have you actually changed in your life? From episodes and my, often my answer is like, not much. This might be one where I do something different. What should I do? And then what should I tell my mom? Like, hey, you and I are both going to start lifting weights. What actually does that mean?
10:25 Speaker 02 You've probably got friends. And I think that if you start asking around, you will find that many people now have folded weightlifting into their lives in ways that they're kind of quietly doing it. And then they'll tell you. I started weightlifting. I started weight training. I started powerlifting, like which is like these three very specific movements that are kind of classic, you know, deadlift, bench press and squat. And people you may not have thought would be doing this are doing it. And they feel amazing. They feel strong and capable. And they see incremental changes like day to day. And then like suddenly it's like weeks and months and years and you you've changed.
11:08 Speaker 02 And I think the thing with muscle that's so inspiring is that it is one of the most adaptable tissues in the body. That is empowering. That is profound. And it is always changing from the moment you wake up to the second you go to bed, that it is responding to changes in the environment. And you are responding to like what it is neat is needed of you.
11:29 Chris Duffy? I will say that I'm in my late 30s and the number one change that I've noticed is that like my body has shifted in ways where I'm like, oh, like there's like a little more stuff here and like my shirt fits differently. And they're like not causing me a lot of distress, but they're not like welcome changes either. I'm not like, great work, body. I love that you like schlumped over a little bit more. And this is kind of telling me like I could do a little bit every day. And it wouldn't be necessarily about like aesthetic changes.
12:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:02 Chris Duffy? It would be about functional changes for the rest of my life.
12:05 Speaker 02 Exactly. And one thing, oh, sort of fold into is that like when you do something like weight training and it is like these small daily incremental changes that add up to big changes, that's something that is tangible. That is like a physical thing you feel in your body every day.
12:26 Chris Duffy? This is something that I was so moved by in your book. You talked about how along the same lines, you talked about how weightlifting can reframe your self perception.
12:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:34 Chris Duffy? We can change the way we think about ourselves by the way we change our muscles.
12:39 Speaker 02 It's not just about like self presentation. It's not just about how you look. It is about what you can do with those muscles and what your body can now do that you've changed. Like, what does that actually mean?
12:52 Chris Duffy? But you, in the book, as a research trip, went and visited with the strongest people on the planet, who are quite literally, like, have lifted the heaviest weights imaginable, pushing the boundaries of what humans can actually lift. You talk about how the strength community is actually really inspiring to you because, in ways that are surprising, because it's not just about, can I lift a 600-pound rock?
13:17 Speaker 02 Right.
13:17 Chris Duffy? So I'd love to have you read this quote.
13:20 Speaker 02 But the strength community's insatiable curiosity about the human body is something I find surprisingly moving. To know one's own strength, I've come to understand the meaning of these words not as a binary statement, and I do or and I don't, but as an ongoing process of discovery. Muscles matter. They allow us, in an observable way, to see what we can do. Though you may not initially know what you're capable of, you have vast reservoirs of potential waiting to be tapped for just the right moment to be revealed.
13:54 Chris Duffy? So, first of all, I think that's such a beautiful and inspiring way of framing it. And it makes me curious, like, how do we know our true potential?
14:03 Speaker 02 I think that we don't know until we try. And I think that's both the beauty and the terror of trying. Physical demonstrations of strength, and particularly public demonstrations of that, have been something that we have done as human beings for as long as we have history, right? And what does that mean? I kind of think about this, like, from a, you know, sort of prehistoric, primeval, Stone Age kind of way, where it's like, it's like a primitive demonstration of leadership skills, what we would call leadership skills now, which is absent other metrics. How do you demonstrate that you, I'm capable of
14:48 Speaker 02 leading this fishing vessel out to sea for, you know, two weeks so I can feed my village? Or, I am capable of leading our forces into war to conquer that land for you. But now, we still have remnants of that. Like, to physically demonstrate strength is something that... Wowes us all and we still respond to it. And so like, what does that mean these days? Like, there is a cultural currency still when you see an athlete doing something incredible. Like, we, I mean, we watch these things because to see them in person means something. Because our bodies talk to each other. Our bodies doing things in front of other people says something. And that's what our muscles are allowing us to do.
15:32 Chris Duffy? Towards the end of the book, you say, "Physical effort still means something in human society. To suffer physically for someone, to use your body to show that you've tried hard, it has value. It's an essential way to demonstrate commitment, to earn the exchange." And I think that's true, right? We think about like, you know, "I would walk across the planet for you. I would, I would jump on a grenade. I would take a bullet," right? Like, the physical act matters in human relationships. But it also matters in our ideas of ourselves.
16:00 Speaker 02 Yes.
16:00 Chris Duffy? "I didn't think I could do that, and then I could."
16:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:03 Chris Duffy? These strength competitions, I think there's something really funny about them too, because they often can surprise us. It's funny, but there is something revealing about the way that we think about muscle and status and strength.
16:15 Speaker 02 Yes. When the expectation is upended, that I think it's wonderful. But some people feel very uncomfortable with it. You know, and I think that leads into the story with Jan Todd, who was, at one point, the strongest woman in the world. And how we think about women in this continuum of strength, right? So like, if strength has been long the province of men and masculinity, like, what does it mean when a woman can pick up manhood stones, right? So like, these stones of strength, she was the first person to lift these Scottish stones of strength known as the Dinni Stones. They weigh 733 pounds.
16:58 Speaker 02 You know, back in the day, lifting these big, heavy rocks, these particular big, heavy rocks in Scotland and in other cultures, like, meant that you were no longer a boy, you're now a man, yay.
17:09 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
17:09 Speaker 02 And so if a woman can pick them up, does that just like erase the meaning and the significance of that feat now? And so I think some people, because these are cultural touchstones, literally, because they have long held the significance, when that's disrupted, we have to reorient ourselves to that and to ask ourselves, like, what do muscles mean? What does strength mean in this society, in our culture now?
17:36 Chris Duffy? But I think you also point out a really interesting flip side of that, which is if strength and muscle are ways of understanding our true potential and how strong we are and how it's actually can be much greater than we would have expected. It's also true that then seeing someone like Janet Todd lift these weights that was thought to be impossible for a woman.
17:56 Speaker 02 Right.
17:57 Chris Duffy? It then changes the way that other girls or women or people who wouldn't have seen themselves as able to do that.
18:03 Speaker 02 Exactly.
18:03 Chris Duffy? That they think about their own potential too.
18:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I think that's, therein lies the importance of seeing someone who looks like you doing something that you want to do or that you never imagined you could do. And then it's also so instructive for us to see that sometimes it is like small, daily incremental changes that then lead to bigger changes. And now we are in a place where, you know, there is a Arnold Strong Woman Contest.
18:31 Chris Duffy? Hmm.
18:31 Speaker 02 And I think that's also a very profound lesson for how to be in the world, that sometimes you don't see those gains for a long time. But that doesn't mean that you're not changing.
18:43 Chris Duffy? I want to talk a little bit more about this idea that men are definitely naturally stronger than women and that you talk about how so much of the strong women competitions prove that like, the idea that we have about that. That it's men are stronger than women, rather than some people are stronger than other people, is really based on a potential and an encouragement. Like, if you only encourage a certain group of people to lift heavy weights, then you're not going to know how heavy a weight another group of people could be.
19:15 Speaker 02 I think that, you know, for the, for the most part, and I think we all kind of understand this to some extent, that, you know, muscles that come with puberty, and particularly male puberty, and then also like just bone growth, that on average, in aggregate, like, men are, as a category, are bigger, taller, stronger physically than women because of these changes that happen biologically. But that doesn't mean that there aren't some women who are stronger than some men and all that. Some people are stronger than that, because there is a huge variation in that. And so, just because of that biological fact doesn't mean that women can't do those things.
19:59 Speaker 02 And I think that that's something that we've gotten kind of a little bit stuck on, which is, if you think categorically about people, you lose all of the nuance and individuality and you then start to say to a group of people, "You can't do that," or "This isn't for you." Some people are stronger than other people, because that is what it is. It's not necessarily men or women. And so, I think that's where much of the kind of limiting factors on who gets to be strong are often originating.
20:31 Chris Duffy? But it also strikes me that, you know, to get political for a moment here, we're at a moment where there's a lot of policing of the boundaries of gender. And one of those ways that it's policed is like, if you are a woman, you will certainly not be strong in these ways. You will not look like this. And if you are a man... You will be stronger and you will have these feelings and you will do this thing.
20:59 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
21:00 Chris Duffy? And that's not even to say of people who are trans or non-binary.
21:04 Speaker 02 Right.
21:04 Chris Duffy? But we've already seen this happen with athletes where they're doing sex testing or they're questioning accomplishments of women who are extremely successful because it's too successful, it's not feminine enough. A lot of the research that you did in this book, actually, it really undermines, in a good way, it undermines these arguments about like, there is one way that a person should look and that is a woman and that is a man and that there's only one type of each thing.
21:33 Speaker 02 I think it's very clear that what's considered acceptable and in fact attractive and like ideal in terms of the body for a man has always been bigger, always been a larger range than what has been afforded to women, right? Like, women have much narrower, have been told that they have to fit in a much narrower category of what's beautiful, what's feminine, what's considered attractive. And then also, like, if you step outside of that, like, that's where the phrase "too muscular" to me really, like, it kept catching on my ear. And I kept asking myself, like, well, what does that really mean? Like, what are you saying when you say someone is too muscular?
22:17 Speaker 02 Oftentimes, it's used to describe a female athlete or a female body that doesn't belong, and I put that in air quotes, or is wrong. And why is that? And if you kind of like, look at some of the instances in which this happened, like, Serena Williams, when she was playing tennis and dominating and winning and being, you know, basically, an extraordinary tennis player.
22:48 Speaker 02 Um, she was told that her body was too muscular. She had given lots of interviews about this. And she's like, well, why is that? I mean, why am I told that my body is to this? And then like the next week that it's too sexy, too racy. It's mushing up all of these ideas of like race and gender. And also like who belongs in a like a white dominated sport like tennis? For the longest time, it was like these particular bodies and these particular people who are playing tennis. I think oftentimes when someone comes along and doesn't fit what has been before, they are told they're to something. Of course, she is seen as this extraordinary talent who like transformed the sport. But at the time, like a disruption, we don't like disruption in in our culture.
23:32 Speaker 02 And so when that happens, sometimes we don't know what to do with it. And or like with Misty Copeland, like being, you know, this incredible pioneer black ballet dancer. She was often told, she's like, why am I being told that my, you know, my body is too muscular? Again, it's like, is it like this is, I'm being told this because I am too black. I am a body that doesn't belong in this white dominated space of ballet. And I think just to kind of like peel back some of the layers on this and kind of like do a close read of like what this is actually saying, you start to understand like these arguments fall away. And it has to do with like changing norms.
24:14 Chris Duffy? You in the book talk about many of the professional athletes, like highest level athletes, Olympians. For many of the the female athletes, they talk about having like a performance body and then an appearance body. Because there is this clear gap between like what is best for what they do.
24:32 Speaker 02 Right.
24:32 Chris Duffy? And what is best for living in a world that doesn't necessarily want them to look like that?
24:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, living in a world in which you're being told to look a certain way. And this is acceptable and you don't even, it's not even that you have to be told that you just absorb it. You know, from these images that you see in media that this is the body that is considered beautiful for a woman. I was so struck by these research studies for these, you know, NCAA athletes, like across many sports, these women who were excelling and and talking about how proud they felt about their strong muscular bodies on the playing field, like performing, like their bodies.
25:15 Speaker 02 Allowing them to do these amazing things. And, and again, this goes back to like form and function. The form that their bodies were taking allowed them to perform this amazing function in a sport that they love and wanted to do. And yet, ask them questions about the appearance side of things like, you know, in social settings, like, you know, going clothing shop. They're just like, my jeans fit weird or these shirts hang odd on me. And I put on a lot of makeup so I can appear feminine and my hair a certain way. And I wear skirts and dresses because I want everyone to know that I am like feminine and pretty and all this stuff. And the fact that these girls have to perform this calculation,
25:59 Speaker 02 that they can't be proud of their bodies in the, in the appearance context to me was really, it was very eye opening.
26:07 Chris Duffy? I feel like this is such a vivid example of like, you should just be able to be the most functional and most fulfilling version of yourself without having to worry about where that fits into a narrative that doesn't serve you.
26:21 Speaker 02 Right, that you shouldn't be coming off the soccer pitch, say, as a female athlete, and then feel like you have to shoehorn yourself into some other self to operate in that world, in that context. Those worlds, I think, wouldn't be amazing if you could walk off court, you know, walk off pitch, like get out of the water and just feel like I'm the same person. And I am gorgeous and feminine and powerful. And all of those things go together.
26:57 Chris Duffy? You wrote an article recently about your own experience with your own body and feeling like how there was starting to be some more acceptance of like having broader, stronger shoulders.
27:07 Speaker 02 Right.
27:09 Speaker 02 Big shoulders are in. I argue that they never were out. You know, this was an article for Elle magazine and it was really interesting to unpack some of the pop culture stuff and talk about trends. But really, I see this across the arc of a much longer timeline, right? Where there is a much more expanded acceptability for women in terms of body image and body presentation. But it is not big enough yet and it will contract and expand as we see. I really, I mean, the cycle of this happens. It can happen seasonally, but we are moving in the general direction of that expansiveness.
27:57 Chris Duffy? We're going to be back with more from Bonnie in just a moment.
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31:01 Chris Duffy? And we are back. So we've been talking about the way that muscle and that training strength can shape your potential and your understanding of yourself. I think this is a natural time to talk to you a little bit more about your dad and the way that your dad changed your understanding of your own potential and the way that muscle played into that. So for people who aren't familiar, who haven't already read your book, your dad was an incredible illustrator, animator, but he was also a martial artist who trained with Bruce Lee.
31:33 Speaker 02 He went to the same high school as Bruce Lee.
31:35 Chris Duffy? Okay.
31:36 Speaker 02 In Hong Kong.
31:37 Chris Duffy? Trained academically with Bruce Lee. Of course, that's what I meant.
31:40 Speaker 02 I love how the story is kind of like.
31:42 Chris Duffy? He trained academically.
31:43 Speaker 02 He is Bruce Lee.
31:44 Chris Duffy? He is Bruce Lee. One time he saw Bruce Lee.
31:48 Chris Duffy? Your dad, it was very important to him growing up. You have a brother.
31:51 Speaker 02 Yes.
31:51 Chris Duffy? And not just your brother, but you. It was really important that both of you were strong and took care of your bodies as much as you took care of your mind.
32:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was a professional artist when I was growing up. And he did a lot of, he was a freelance artist. He was a commercial artist. And so he did everything from movie posters to book covers, the Choose Your Own Adventure books and, you know, advertisements and like the posters for the Olympics. And, and he also was, practiced many martial arts, including he had a black belt in karate and he did taekwondo. And he just enjoyed a life of the body and exercise and had a practice that he incorporated us from when we were toddlers. Really, like, you know, he grew up in a time in Hong Kong when, actually,
32:45 Speaker 02 it wasn't really, exercise was not really a thing, but his dad was unusual for his time in that he would take him spearfishing and swimming and was also like emphasizing that these things are important. And he, so when I was little, he was always having us. Practice martial arts with him in the, in the garage. And then we would run after dinner at like 10 o'clock at night to, like my pediatrician's office had like a parking lot. That was like a mile away. I mean, after at 10:00 PM, we would be running in the dark after him. And he'd be like, come on, guys. And then we would get to the parking lot and my brother and I would just like, kind of pretend to beat each other up while he's like running laps around the parking lot.
33:29 Speaker 02 And we'd run home and like the lightning bugs. And I just have such a memory, a sense memory of that. And then also he would bring us up in the studio to paint and like do little projects that were tied to his projects. And he would like pay us like 20 bucks to like paint a basketball or something like that. Or he would give us Marvel comics and be like, okay, this was, we're gonna do some anatomy lessons. And then we just were, ended up reading comics and he was so mad at us. But that we, you know, that this was something that was like, this was in our life. This was daily life. And I think when my grandfather died, he died very young. He was 64 of a heart attack. And that was like a real shock for my dad that he, you know, I think he always thought maybe he wasn't gonna make it that long.
34:14 Speaker 02 And so he kind of like doubled down on this exercise stuff and this like commitment to pushing back against mortality, I guess. I really do think about it like that.
34:27 Chris Duffy? What do you think your dad wanted you to get from physical strength?
34:34 Speaker 02 I think at first it was more that he actually wanted us to be his playmates. He actually said that he's like, I wanted to train you up to be my little ninjas, you know? And, but I think he wanted us to understand that it was important, as important as all the academic stuff. I mean, I actually have no memory of my parents pushing us academically. You know, stereotypical Asian parents, like that was not a thing. And it was really important to have a sport. So like when we were, we played soccer when we were really little and then we hated soccer. And so our parents sat us down one day and was like, you have to pick a sport. So you either do soccer or you keep swimming.
35:16 Speaker 02 And we said swim team because we just hated like getting our shins kicked in. And so we did swim team for. A long time, you know, until we left for college. And it was like the best thing because it we learned how to be on a team. And we learned how to, I guess, take pride in what our bodies could do.
35:34 Chris Duffy? You also talk about how your dad trained you and your brother in martial arts and how, I mean, this is almost like one of the classic things that everyone who studies martial arts says.
35:43 Speaker 02 Montage.
35:44 Chris Duffy? Training.
35:45 Speaker 02 Karate kids.
35:46 Chris Duffy? But like, one thing that everyone always says is like, it's actually not about like, how to fight. Like, if you're a martial arts master, the whole point is that you don't have to fight, that you find ways to avoid the actual use of the physical conflict.
35:59 Speaker 02 I'm thinking about these classic instances of like, living in New York and walking down the street and just having people say shit to you. And as a woman, you get that quite a lot. And every time, there is this physical reaction. And whether you react or not, there have been a few times in which I just shout back. I talk back and I feel like my body reacting in a way that is like, that it is ready for a fight, it's sporting for a fight. But I don't like go and punch the guy, pop him in the teeth because he said something disgusting to me. I don't know that this is like something that I want to tell people to do, which is to like, fight people or be ready to fight them.
36:43 Speaker 02 But I think there is a lesson here in that you want to be able to stand up for something you believe in and that maybe that is something that my dad taught me, like with this physical training, which was to not necessarily confront anyone, but if something is unjust, to speak up and actually be prepared to like stand your ground for that. I think that not being as timid physically does do something to how you see yourself as a person in society, in the world.
37:21 Chris Duffy? But I think another big thing that comes up with people with muscle, especially thinking about muscle, is when things go wrong.
37:27 Speaker 02 Yes.
37:27 Chris Duffy? If I was going to name my top three most thought about muscles, like probably number one would be like abs, six pack, and that's purely appearance, where I'm like, I don't have that, oh, what would it take to get that? But then number two is my shoulder, because I had an injury from when I was like in high school that has kind of.
37:45 Chris Duffy? Ebb and flowed of pain in my shoulder. And so like shoulder muscle, always think about that. And then similar hand, like it's great when it doesn't hurt. When it hurts, all that I can think about is my hand is hurting.
37:55 Speaker 02 I was just thinking about how my back is getting sore.
37:58 Chris Duffy? Okay, back, back is one for you. What are your other two, top three?
38:02 Speaker 02 My shoulder area also because of all the paddling and whatnot, swimming. And I've also been thinking a lot about my wrists and hands. They're so delicate and like all of these muscles, you know, in this very like compressed space. And also fun fact, there are no muscles in your fingers.
38:21 Chris Duffy? There's no muscles in your fingers?
38:23 Speaker 02 Nope.
38:23 Chris Duffy? How do you move your finger?
38:24 Speaker 02 Think about it like a pul, like levers and pulleys. They're all like you're puppeteering your own fingers from your muscles in your hands and your forearms.
38:33 Chris Duffy? Oh, that's really fascinating.
38:34 Speaker 02 I think your toes are similar.
38:36 Chris Duffy? And what about, what is the muscle that you think is the most overrated muscle?
38:40 Speaker 02 The biceps. I was told by my anatomist friends at UCSF that the biceps brachii, which is the one that we think of when we think of this like quintessential make me a muscle pose isn't, is only the strongest muscle in the arm when it's in this position. But in a different position, it's actually the brachialis, which is the strongest and doesn't even get that, doesn't get any.
39:04 Chris Duffy? Never even heard of it before.
39:05 Speaker 02 Doesn't get any love.
39:06 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
39:07 Speaker 02 It's the surface stuff that we like, love, right? We love the packs, they're right here, that we love this, you know, the biceps brachii, but we don't know about the brachialis. This deep, but we don't know about these little muscles that are in your back, kind of keeping you upright. And then we see the glute. Well, I actually think the glute, it is the biggest in the human body. And also it, it actually is, deserves all that attention.
39:31 Chris Duffy? You're, you're a fan.
39:32 Speaker 02 Yes.
39:33 Chris Duffy? I mean, it has a great name. Gluteus maximus is incredible name. And also the fact that it's literally the butt is also fantastic. Is there a muscle that you think is like, has a weird little story to it?
39:44 Speaker 02 The muscles that give you goosebumps.
39:47 Chris Duffy? Oh, that's cool.
39:48 Speaker 02 The erector pili, and there's little muscle fibers that attach to your bottoms of your hair follicles. And so if you think about every time you're cold and you get goosebumps, when those muscles contract, it's trying to warm you up. And also when you're scared. The hairs on your back and your neck all go up and think about a porcupine being so frightened that their quills go up because those are like really long hairs. And then also of extreme emotion like awe. Um, you know, think of like peering over the edge of like the Grand Canyon or like watching this huge wave come in.
40:27 Speaker 02 It's like these muscles are very existential muscles of fear, cold and awe. I mean, I just find that so wonderful. I think those are the most underrated muscles to be quite honest. And, um, and we all have them.
40:44 Chris Duffy? That's really cool.
40:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
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42:04 Speaker 00 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.
42:37 Chris Duffy? You love being in the water. In a lot of, on Muscle, you're also talking about surfing. Can you talk about your relationship to surfing?
42:43 Speaker 02 It's mostly love and sometimes hate. Mostly because I hate that I'm not better at it all the time. I love it. I love it so much. I love the feeling of flying and of flow and of this dance that happens with the water and how the ocean is your dance partner. And you have to work with that dance partner. And sometimes your dance partner is feeling especially strong and rambunctious and you're trying to wrestle that dance partner into cooperating with you. And sometimes it's just so easy. You're just like quick stepping along the way. I mean, it's, the metaphors just write themselves.
43:21 Chris Duffy? It is just such a perfect metaphor where it's like, you have to try really hard, but then also let go. And it's about being in the perfect place and time and reading the moment. And then not looking where you want to go, not looking down, not checking yourself too much. Fall down straight into the water if you do that.
43:39 Speaker 02 And I think what I love about it is that it is this continuing lesson in that in both presence, like being physically present. Because when you're out there, like I was this morning, you're not thinking about anything else. And my brain is so busy all the time, like so many peoples. And I'm just always, and when I'm out there, it's all gone. Everything just disappears except for, you know, me and the ocean and just reading like what's coming. And then figuring out how to meet that wave when it gets to me.
44:12 Chris Duffy? When you were writing about surfing, you used a term that I'd never heard before and I thought was so interesting, which is interoception.
44:18 Speaker 02 So most people know about proprioception, which is like the sense of your body in space. And interoception is how, more generally, how your body feels. So it's like inside. And the science of interoception is still pretty new, but researchers are, you know, talking about all these signals that your body sends to itself that are below your conscious thought, right? So conscious control, rather. And it's everything from pain.
44:51 Speaker 02 And depth of breath, even like how deep your lungs are taking in air or like stretch receptors in your muscles, which you know, when your muscle is getting to the point where it's at the point of possible injury, everyone's felt this before where you catch yourself and it's not that you stop yourself, it's that something has wrenched your arm in such a way in emotion that you're in danger of tearing your muscle. And so it just stops, it just contracts. I didn't know that we had muscle spindles that were like our secret stretch detectors, but like there are all these different receptors in our bodies that are telling us things that we don't know, but learning to listen to the fact that they're going on, like there's some kind of atmospheric understanding of
45:36 Speaker 02 like on some level, you know, there's a static.
45:39 Chris Duffy? How does that play out, like proprioception, interoception, using your muscles and activating them? How do those play out in surfing?
45:47 Speaker 02 Well, I mean, certainly I know when I feel really cold, I want to go in. But also if I've landed funny in my surfboard, that's when I like kind of tore my soleus and I then it was just like, oh, it's time to stop. You have to listen to your body when it's trying to tell you something and pain is one of those ways, right? But it's also like when it feels good, keep going. But how do you also then come back from injury? Because like, I think also that's another long road that I think we often stop doing things that when we've injured ourselves or, you know, we've been sick. And then I think coming back to movement is also something that is like a long road. There is another activation energy that needs to happen. But I will say, one thing I will say to all
46:32 Speaker 02 of us, when in those moments is that your muscles remember. So muscle memory is not just living in the motor neuron patterns of our movements, but there is a memory in our cells themselves for past exercise. And so it lasts, I mean, it's really, this research is quite new and I talk about it in the book, but your muscle cells will retain a propensity when either it's epigenetic, where certain genes are switched on and off with and expressed more fully with exercise and such that your muscles are primed to respond to exercise and can like get to return to form faster. And that includes. Mass and strength. That means it's okay to like, take a break.
47:17 Speaker 02 And I think that's another thing that your muscles are telling you. That it's okay to give yourself a rest and then you come back stronger.
47:23 Chris Duffy? What is the connection specifically between surfing and muscle and strength?
47:27 Speaker 02 I mean, for me, surfing is the most joyful at this moment manifestation of muscle and strength and what I can use my body for in the world. I love wrestling with the ocean. I love like, understanding that the ocean itself has its muscularity. And I'm like, it's an energy transfer, right? So like, the wave, the body and the surfboard, all of this has to work in flow and synchronicity for that wave to be ridden, like to its utmost potential.
48:01 Chris Duffy? There's a level in which muscle is about control of our body, but also control of our mind, a focus, we, this is a practice. Anything that's about control, I think sometimes it can be healthy and sometimes it can cross the line into unhealthily.
48:13 Speaker 02 For sure.
48:14 Chris Duffy? So how do you think about like, swimming or muscle building or surfing as staying on the healthy side of control and not viewing it as like, an obsession or an addiction or too far?
48:25 Speaker 02 I am no different than anyone else in terms of, I want it to be better. I wish, you know, sometimes I wish I, you know, ate better or was stronger or whatever. Like, everybody has some view of their body that they would like to do better. But I do think that if you think about our muscles as supporting the things that we want to do, that looks different for everyone. And so, I want everyone to be able to use their bodies to like, the maximum joy possible. And I think that's what muscles are for. Because what are muscles? Muscles make us move and movement brings us joy. So what is the movement that brings you the most happiness?
49:10 Speaker 02 And how can I have more of that in my life? And that's really like, all I want for people.
49:15 Chris Duffy? Well, Bonnie, thank you so much for making the time to do this show. Thank you so much for being here. This was an absolute pleasure.
49:20 Speaker 02 Thank you, Chris. It was a joy to be here with you.
49:26 Chris Duffy? That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Bonnie Tsui. Her books are called On Muscle and Why We Swim. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder now. You can find more about my book and all my other projects at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are both muscular and strong-willed. On the TED side, we've got audio powerlifters Daniela Balarezo, Ben Ben Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laney Lot, Tenzica Sungman-Nivong, Antonia Lei, and Joseph DeBryne. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who dispose of weak facts with reckless abandon. On the PRX
50:08 Chris Duffy? side, we've got the Arnold Schwarzeneggers of audio, Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with someone whose strength you admire. Thank you for making the tough, strong, muscular choice to listen to this podcast episode. We will be back next week with more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you again for listening, and please take care.
50:35 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by PayPal. This holiday season, don't miss your chance to turn "just looking" into "just bought it." Make it easy for your customers to say yes on the spot. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. And when you add Pay Later, you can turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96% of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users, so if you give them Pay Later flexibility now, it could help earn their loyalty all year long. PayPal is built for all business. Get started at PayPal.com/business. PayPal data eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users defined as more than one Pay Later purchase in the past year.
51:21 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times.
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52:25 Chris Duffy? With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N A Member FDIC.
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