Pod Insights How to Be a Better Human How to make dating not suck (w/ Logan Ury) About this episode It’s natural to romanticize the random meet-cutes we’ve all seen in romantic comedies, but is hoping for a chance encounter with the next great love of your life the best way to find them? Behavioral scientist turned dating coach Logan Ury believes in dating with practicality and intention. Logan joins Chris to share actionable tips on where and how to meet people, making the best of first dates, and how to know when you have found the right person. Whether you’re in your 20s or your 70s, Logan’s well-researched tactics will give you hope of finding a stable long-term relationship. Her book, How to Not Die Alone, is out now.
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1:35 Chris Duffy? You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When it comes to dating and love, I am unbelievably clueless. That's not because I've had bad luck, actually. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. My wife and I started dating in college, and while it wasn't my plan or hers for us to find a spouse while we were still teenagers... It basically just happened that way. We never broke up. So as a result, I've got nothing to offer when friends ask for dating advice. I'm like, have you tried living in a nearby dormitory? Or what if you just never broke up with the person who you were dating last? That's not very helpful advice. Luckily though, after today, I am going to be able to send them this episode,
2:19 Chris Duffy? which has so many more helpful and practical tips. And that is because today's guest, Logan Urie, is a dating expert. She's the author of How to Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love. And she's the dating coach on the new Netflix show, The Later Daters, which follows singles in their 50s, 60s and 70s as they seek out love and companionship. I think that as you listen to Logan, you're going to find, like I did, that whatever age you are and whatever your current relationship status is, she has some really interesting and new perspectives on relationships and dating and romance. Here's a clip.
2:53 Speaker 01 People are so hard on themselves around dating, but the truth is that we're born knowing how to love, but we're not born knowing how to date. And what that means is that dating is a skill and you can get better at it. And so for someone out there who feels like I'm alone and I have been for a long time and I'm giving up on my dreams of finding somebody, you really can develop the skills that will help you find the relationship of your dreams.
3:22 Chris Duffy? We'll be right back with more from Logan. Don't go away because you're going to love her.
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5:26 Chris Duffy? In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.
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6:11 Chris Duffy? On today's episode, we're talking love, dating and relationships with Logan Urie.
6:16 Speaker 01 Hi, I'm Logan Urie. I am a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. I work as the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge. I'm the on-screen expert for the new Netflix show, The Later Daters, and I wrote the bestselling book, How to Not Die Alone.
6:31 Chris Duffy? What do you think are the biggest roadblocks to people in connecting and dating?
6:36 Speaker 01 I've found that people suffer from dating blind spots. So these patterns of behavior or ways of thinking that hold them back from finding love, but that they can't identify on their own. So for example, when I work with a new coaching client, before our first session, they ask their friends and family, "Why do you think I'm single?" And for most people, this is the first time they've ever done that with a broader group. And they bring back to me the answers. And sometimes it's things like, "Oh, you're perfect. There's just no one else out there that's good enough for you," or "It'll happen when it happens." But oftentimes, people do hear things like, "I think you're too picky. I don't think you ever got over your ex. I think you bury yourself in work because you're afraid of rejection." And so I think whether it's people doing that exercise on their own or doing it through work with me,
7:20 Speaker 01 that really there are these things that are holding us back that we are not able to identify on our own.
7:25 Chris Duffy? For me, I started dating my wife when we were in college. So I kind of feel like whenever people, sometimes people ask me, because they're like, "Oh, you have a relationship that you've been in a successful relationship for a long time. What are your tips?" And I'm like, "My tips are the same as like your great-great-grandfathers." Like, "You go to school, you meet a girl, and then you never break up." Like, that's so unhelpful. And so I kind of feel like I am just truly clueless when it comes to even the dating landscape, what modern dating is like.
7:55 Speaker 01 You're right. So what feels so hard about dating right now is how do you know if you're choosing the right person? And for anyone who has that instinct, it makes sense, because for most of human history, we were not choosing who we married. It was really an economic institution where it happened because of convenience, or for one person to trade camels or sheep, and that actually, marriage did not be Come about love until not that long ago. And dating as we know it in terms of two individuals on their own meeting. That happened around 1890 when women were really getting out of the home and working more. And so if you add in apps, which have only been around for about 10 or 11 years, all of this is really new.
8:36 Speaker 01 And so if somebody out there is feeling like it's really hard to meet someone and I don't know how to do it. And why am I the one who should know who I should spend the rest of my life with? You are not alone. A lot of people are struggling with that and dating is challenging.
8:51 Chris Duffy? What was your experience dating like?
8:54 Speaker 01 So similar to you, I met my husband in college. However, it wasn't like we just met and have been dating ever since. So we met in college and I know because he added me on Facebook, which at the time was of course, you know, a little bit of flirtation. And then seven years later, after not really seeing each other again, we met at Google where we were both working. And we just saw each other as friends. We would talk about our dating lives. I was chasing after this other guy. He was doing his own thing. And then he was tutoring me in a statistical programming language called R. And then I was, you know, really lusting after this guy. I met at Burning Man. It didn't work out.
9:34 Speaker 01 I went to a dating coach. The coach really helped me identify who I am, what I want, who I should be with. And I realized this guy from Burning Man actually kind of sucks. And this guy at work who has been teaching me R is extremely nice. Makes me feel all the ways that I want to feel and could I convince him to ask me out on a date? And so we started dating eight years after we first met.
9:59 Chris Duffy? Oh, wow. And I love falling in love over a programming language. It's so hilarious.
10:02 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we call R our love language.
10:06 Chris Duffy? That's incredible. Oh, I love that so much. You literally have a love language and it is a programming language.
10:11 Speaker 01 And I have to say, I'm quite bad at R. I don't think I could get anything in it. But I did get a long-term relationship and a baby out of it.
10:19 Chris Duffy? What better execution of a program could there be? That's what you're looking for.
10:23 Speaker 01 I agree.
10:24 Chris Duffy? When I talk to friends about dating, it seems like a lot of the, the struggle around dating is like having had a bad experience and then trying to put yourself back out there again. And it's so hard when you get your heart crushed to then think about like. Trying to build something with someone again. What advice do you have for people who are out there who are listening? Who are just like, I just can't imagine getting back into the dating world after a breakup.
10:52 Speaker 01 It's so interesting because before you said breakup or heartbreak, where my head was going was just how people are often feeling very burned out right now. And so it's not necessarily, oh, I had my heart broken. But it's just like, I've been doing this for a long time. I have been on dates. I've gotten my hopes up, then I've been disappointed or I've been ghosted. And so I just really do have a lot of empathy for people who are like, it hasn't worked the last 50 times. Why should it work now? And so anyone, whether you haven't been dating in a while, or you're getting over a heartbreak, or you've just been in the game for a long time. I think it can make people feel really lonely and really pessimistic. And so I would say dating has always been hard. Look at Sex and the City. Look at things that came way before the apps. I think that dating is challenging.
11:37 Speaker 01 It's I'm presenting myself to you. You're presenting yourself to me. And then at any point, one of us can just press the eject button and reject the other person. And so I think just acknowledging how vulnerable it is, how difficult it is to face rejection. All of those things are true, but also being on the other side of it, it's worth it. I'm so glad that I'm married. I'm so glad that I have this loving partner, that we're building a family together, that I'm going through life with this person. And so I would say, yes, dating is challenging and there can be really high highs and really low lows. But if you have a goal of finding somebody, then it's worth it to keep trying.
12:15 Chris Duffy? I wonder, like, is the path to happiness actually finding love and a partner? Or is that just something that we are kind of told is like the one acceptable way to find fulfillment in your life?
12:30 Speaker 01 So I think there's a lot of ways that people can be fulfilled. One of my favorite topics is this idea of other significant others. And this comes from research from the excellent relationship scientist at Northwestern, Eli Finkel. And this is the idea that we now expect so much from our partners. We expect them to be our career coach. We expect them to be our tennis partner. We expect them to be the perfect co-parent, our lover, all of these things. And that almost all of the time, our partner is not really qualified or interested in playing all those roles. So we ask for everything from one person and then we get disappointed. And we need to change this by actually having a community of people that we rely on for this type of stuff.
13:15 Speaker 01 And so the research behind other significant others, or OSOs, is that if you can make a list of some of the different needs in your life and the different people who you go to for those needs, then people who have a longer list of different people, those relationships actually tend to be a lot happier.
13:31 Chris Duffy? I honestly have thought about this at pretty much every stage of my life, is that I understand that not everyone has this experience or that everyone loves this experience. But for me, the like experience of being at a college campus where I could walk across the green and know that I'd probably run into a few people I knew just by doing that, that is something that I think I've been chasing for my entire adult life. It's like, how can I move into closer proximity to friends so that when I go to the grocery store, I'm going to run into someone? Or how can I make it so that like, when I'm out for a walk, I cross paths with someone? The classic cliche of, I need to borrow a cup of sugar because I'm baking. Like, how can I make that real? I've always wanted that.
14:13 Chris Duffy? And I think it does go to the idea of like, so many people want to date because they want that companionship. They want that feeling of like, there's someone who knows me and cares about me around. And I think it's really powerful what you brought up is that there are also other ways of filling that need or close to that need. It's not like that's the only need you get from dating.
14:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think a criticism that I've encountered for the last few years with my book coming out is people say, A book's called How to Not Die Alone. Why do you think everyone needs to find love? It's like, no, if I wrote a book called How to Speak German, or How to Barbecue, I'm not saying the world needs to speak German or barbecue, but if you would like to learn how to do that, read this book on those skills. So my book is for people who are looking to find that long-term romantic relationship and want some help. But I don't feel like everyone who doesn't have a romantic relationship is missing out, or that their lives would instantly be so much better if they found it. But as someone who has been in a relationship for 10 years and feels like it's a pretty defining part of my life,
15:17 Speaker 01 I want to help people who also want that to get it.
15:21 Chris Duffy? One of the goals for me, when I sit down with someone, is I want to connect with them. I want to have a genuine connection with this person. And I want that because that's more fun for me. I also want that because that makes a better podcast episode. So we've already kind of done the first level of screening, where I'm not just like sitting down with people and going like, oh, two minutes in, got nothing to talk about. But when you do sit down with someone where you want to really be with them and talk to them, a challenge that I find a lot is, how do you talk to a person in a way that you are vulnerable and authentic, but also gives them space to speak?
16:00 Chris Duffy? But then the second part is, how do you get this person to say things that aren't just their shtick? The thing they've said in 400 dates before where they're on autopilot. How do you get them to say something where it's a new experience for them too? How do you get off autopilot and into the genuine moment?
16:19 Speaker 01 My friend Kristen Berman calls it press play. It's like, there's a tape in your head and you know the answers and you press play. And the point is that nobody enjoys press play conversations. Like I would say, even for me at this point in talking about my work, it's like, I can do the press play answers very easily, but am I connecting the dots or having new thoughts around them? No, not really. So if we take the premise that it's not fun, novel, memorable, et cetera, should be in press play mode, then how can you avoid it? The people that I know who have been really successful with dating, it's not just what somebody might think, oh, the tallest guy or the most attractive people. I think, yes, of course, that helps in the dating world,
17:03 Speaker 01 but it's also somebody who can really create a new experience with somebody and someone who's a great conversationalist. And so I think bringing it back to your podcast analogy, it's what makes a really great podcast interview. It's somebody who's curious and somebody who's interested, not interesting. Chris, I think if you spent the whole podcast telling everyone how interesting you are or bringing the attention back to yourself to make jokes, I don't think this podcast would exist anymore because people wouldn't enjoy it and I don't think the guests would really enjoy it. But what you do to make podcast guests feel comfortable is ask a lot of questions and really make them feel interesting. So that's the first tip is be interested, not interesting.
17:46 Speaker 01 The best conversationalists are really people who make you feel fascinating. The second tip is this idea of support versus shift responses. So a shift response is that somebody says something like, oh, I have an upcoming trip to Michigan. And then the shift response, shifting it back to yourself is, oh, I've been to Michigan before. Here's what I did when I was there. And you feel like you're compiling and adding on to the conversation, but actually you're redirecting it to you. A support response sounds like, how did you choose Michigan? Have you ever been there before? What are you most excited about doing there? And so I think just somebody practicing support versus shift responses and really paying attention to how often in life do you feel like,
18:31 Speaker 01 oh, well, I'm having a great conversation because I keep saying how I relate. It's like, no, it's actually less about how you relate and more about helping that person explore who they are and have a new conversation that they haven't had.
18:44 Chris Duffy? I love that. I love those tips to get out of press play mode. So ironically, I'm going to ask you to do something that I bet is press play mode for you. I find your three dating tendencies to be such a useful framework. So maybe let's do a little bit of press play on that and then we can talk about how they apply.
19:00 Speaker 01 So the three dating tendencies is a framework that I came up with from working with a bunch of clients and just feeling like there's these common themes or personas that are coming out in terms of what's holding people back, but that they can't identify on their own. So the first one is the romanticizer. And for anyone out there listening who says things like, I just haven't met my soulmate yet. I'm waiting for love to happen to me. I really want that happily ever after. I want the romantic we met story. You might be a romanticizer. And so romanticizers are very focused on the way that the relationship started. And they believe there's one person out there for them. And they expect that relationships will be effortless. And that if the relationship ends up requiring work,
19:44 Speaker 01 they think, oh, this must not be the right person for me. And for the romanticizers, it's really about shifting them from what psychologist Rene Franiunk calls the soulmate mindset, the idea that love is all about finding the right person, to the work it out mindset, which is the idea that great relationships require work. And that if you're putting in work, that's a good thing. And so romanticizers often get mad at me because they feel like I'm bursting their bubble around their love story. But I say, what's romantic is that you met someone and you committed to them. Who cares how you met? And the day you met, if you're together for 50 years, is 0.0055% of your total relationship. So let's get you out of the soulmate mindset. Let's turn off the Hallmark channel and really get you out there
20:28 Speaker 01 creating this relationship of your dreams. And the second one is the maximizer. And I would say the majority of my clients, because I live in the Bay Area and I work with a lot of people in New York, are maximizers. And these are the people who are like, I can research my way to finding the perfect person. If I was going to buy a vacuum, I would look on Wirecutter. And if I'm going to find the perfect person, of course, I'm going to do all my research. And I think the instinct there to try on different people and get to know yourself is good. But they definitely push it too far where they feel like, okay, well, I've met all these great people. I need to keep going to find the perfect person. And they miss out on the fact that, of course, you want to find someone great,
21:11 Speaker 01 but that it's really up to you to put the work in to build this great relationship. It's not just about finding the perfect person. And so for the maximizers, they often need to understand, you've likely already met someone who you could have created a great relationship with. How can you find someone great, invest in it, and really build that relationship? And not spend decades of your life trying to find this perfect person who... Is very unlikely to exist. And then the third type is the hesitator, and I definitely have a lot of empathy for the hesitator. So these are people who are actually not dating at all, and they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. So this is the kind of person who feels like they are not lovable yet, and they do not want to put themselves out there because they feel like no one would love them in their current state. So this is the kind of person who says, I need to lose weight, I need a more impressive
21:56 Speaker 01 job, I need to clean my apartment, I need to move to a better city. And what they don't understand is that they're underestimating the opportunity cost of not dating. So the opportunity cost here is that you don't get to figure out what kind of person you want to be with, and you don't improve your dating skills. And so for the hesitator, it's really about understanding you're never 100% ready for anything. These are skills that you can develop, and it's much better to put yourself out there and start learning than to just sit around waiting for this day when you'll magically feel ready to start dating.
22:29 Chris Duffy? We're going to take a quick break, and we will be right back after this.
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24:55 Chris Duffy? brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. We are back with dating coach Logan Urie, who just described some tendencies that we may have when it comes to dating. But what if you're a person who doesn't have a lot of dating options?
25:21 Speaker 01 So let's talk about some.
25:22 Chris Duffy? I asked Logan for advice about that.
25:23 Speaker 01 So if you are on Hinge and you are getting a lot of options, of course, you know, you are in a lucky position and you get to choose among these people. And actually, Hinge just released this new feature where when you hit the limit of conver-. You actually have to reply to your matches or close out of them before you can match with new people. So some people have too many options and they actually need help navigating that. Of course, there's the other side of the equation, which is people who aren't getting enough matches. For them, the number one thing that they can do is really improve their profile. When I have a client and I look at their profile, I'm like, this profile is boring and it does not match the person that I'm seeing in front of me. So really, people investing in their photos, in their prompts, you know, having a mixture of humor and vulnerability.
26:07 Speaker 01 And it's a vulnerable exercise. It's basically saying, here's my online billboard telling you why you should love me. Yeah, that's freaking scary. I get it, but it also does matter. So investing in your profile is the first thing you can do. And then also being proactive about sending likes, sending comments and really putting out there, telling the algorithm, this is who I'm interested in. And then finally, I think a piece that people underestimate is consistency. You really do have to be consistent if you're going to find success with this. So being consistent means logging in and checking your messages, following up with people, not canceling dates, letting people know if you're interested or not after those dates. And really, the people who just go on these dating binges and go on a bunch of dates in the week, burn themselves out, delete the app, a few months later, download it again.
26:53 Speaker 01 I feel like those cycles don't feel good, but if you can actually date in a sustainable way that you can maintain over time, I think those are the people that are most successful at actually turning the process of dating into the goal they want, which is finally never having to date again.
27:08 Chris Duffy? It seems like those same tips apply just as much in dating off of the apps, right? Like being consistent, following up, something that I've thought about a lot in the non-romantic way, but I think applies just as much to the romantic ways. It's just be consistent in joining an organization or doing an activity or just even being in a place, right? Like if you go to the same coffee shop every day at the same time, eventually you'll start to see familiar faces at the very least. And that's the start of the potential to meet those people, to make friends. But I imagine it's also the start of the potential to meet someone who you could go on. Date with.
27:46 Speaker 01 I think that that's definitely true. One of my friends, his advice on this is that people often say, oh, go to events. And he's like, but if you just go to a bunch of different events, there's no consistency. He's like, why don't you actually join one of those groups and put on the events? So his feeling is if you're back of house and you're part of the committee that's throwing those Shabbat dinners for people to meet, then you actually are meeting the people on the committee very often and you're meeting the people who come to the events very often. So that's his piece of advice. What is the way that you want to meet someone in the world? And if that event doesn't exist, can you create it?
28:22 Chris Duffy? What is one thing that someone should do to prepare or while they are on a first date?
28:30 Speaker 01 One thing that people should do is really try to incorporate a sense of play. Some of the most successful daters I know, what they're really good at is having novel, memorable experiences with their dates. And so if you just go on coffee walks, you're not going to have that good of a time necessarily, and neither is the person. But can you do something more interesting? It could even just be, can you go to a bookstore and walk around and talk about the books that you're seeing? If it's the winter and you want to go to the park and ice skate, what are things that you could do together? That will help you sort of break out of that press play autopilot mold, help you have a novel experience. And if you say, oh, that's too much work for a first date, I don't even know if I like them. Great, then make the novel experience the conversation. How can you bring in an interesting topic?
29:15 Speaker 01 How can you ask them questions that they haven't been asked before? How can you give those support responses that help them go deep? Because really what you're trying to do is you're trying to be the antidote to all the bad dates that they've ever been on.
29:26 Chris Duffy? And what's something that people should do if they are on, let's say, a date somewhere between five and 12? So you've been on a few and figuring each other out still.
29:36 Speaker 01 One thing that I would do if you've been on five to 12 dates is actually invite your friends to meet this person. But don't ask your friends, what did you think of her? Ask your friends, what did you think of me around her? Because your friends are not experts on that other person and they're not experts on your relationship, but they are experts on you. And listen to the feedback that they give you around whether you seemed natural with that person, if you seemed comfortable, if you seemed anxious. Really, what side of you do they think that this person brought out?
30:06 Chris Duffy? I love that. I want to ask you a question that is from a friend of one of our producers. So this question comes from a friend of mine who's so social and easy to talk to. But anytime he starts to like someone romantically, he just turns to pudding and cannot speak or act like a normal person, and it really hinders his ability to date. And he finds it really frustrating himself, too, that he can't better control his brain or emotions in those moments. This person says, why do our brains sometimes do the opposite of what we want them to do when we develop a crush on someone? So for example, like, why do I act so embarrassing when I'm around my crush? And how can I get over that?
30:41 Speaker 01 So the basic thing here is understanding that our brains often act in irrational ways against our own best interest. So that's why, you know, people say, I want to lose weight. And then they immediately go out and eat everything they can and all you can eat brunch. Or we say we want to save for retirement and then we get an email from Anthropologie and we buy a new lamp. So we're often acting against our own best interests. But I think nowhere is this more true than in matters of the heart. So first, just want to start by empathizing with this person. The second thing is that I think this is a place where attachment style really does get in the way. So for example, if you are anxiously attached, and that means that you constantly have a fear that somebody is going to abandon you, then when that person doesn't respond to your texts in the normal amount of time, or somebody says that they're going to get back to you
31:26 Speaker 01 and they don't, your brain really goes into the danger zone. And you really start spiraling and thinking, they never liked me. This isn't going to work out. People always leave me. And in those moments, you just don't feel like yourself. You really don't. It's like your brain is hijacked by these emotions. And then you do what's called protest behavior, where you act out and you send them a million texts and then turn off your phone, or you yell at them. And I just feel like some of the most embarrassing moments of my life, a few of them are going through my head right now, when I did protest behavior because of anxious attachment and somebody pulling away. And for somebody who's avoidant attached, the same thing happens. They feel like someone's going to smother them. And when somebody starts dating too close or spending too much time at their house, and they feel like, when is this person ever going to leave?
32:10 Speaker 01 Then they kind of go into their spiral mode, their danger zone, and they push people away. That's the first point that I wanted to make. The other thing I want to tell this person is that this is actually a beautiful thing. Falling in love, having a crush, what an amazing, exciting feeling. When we look at brain scans, FMRI's of people falling in love, the same part of their brain lights up when they think about that person as a drug addict who thinks about the drug that they're addicted to. So love is literally a drug and we are addicted to it, especially in those falling in love moments. So instead of saying, why am I falling into a puddle?
32:49 Speaker 01 Can he actually think, I feel so excited that I get to experience this thing, that I fall hard, that I crush hard? And I'm going to be easier on myself about this and just understand that falling in love is a beautiful thing. And that if it does feel like your brain is being hijacked by your crush, you're right.
33:06 Chris Duffy? Okay, what about you're on a date and it's 10 minutes in, it's five minutes in and you just know this is not going to work. What do you do? Do you just leave? Do you go through with the whole date?
33:17 Speaker 01 My initial advice is that if you are somebody who this often happens to, how can you actually date in a different way? So it might be that you need to screen people differently. Maybe you should be doing FaceTime dates or phone calls before you go on dates to make sure that you do have something in common with this person or that you're attracted to them. So that's one strategy to make sure that this happens to you less often. But another strategy is to actually rethink what you're looking for on the date. If you're looking for the spark, if you're looking for instant chemistry, then you might be making a pretty big mistake. Because what we know from the research is that only 11% of happily married couples experience love at first sight. For many people, that spark grows over time. There's something called the mere exposure effect. The more that we're exposed to something, the more familiar it is, the more we like it.
34:01 Speaker 01 And so I would actually challenge that person to think, how can I give these dates more of a chance? That being said, if you're truly not into it, give them one drink, give them 30 to 60 minutes and then you can say, hey, it was lovely to meet you, but I actually have to get home. I have an early meeting or an early workout tomorrow and I think you can just call it a night.
34:20 Chris Duffy? Yeah. What about you've been together for a while, a long time? What's a piece of advice when you're trying to decide like, okay, I'm going to commit, whether that is we're going to move in together, or we're going to get married, or whatever that commitment is. What's something that people should think about as they're they're taking their relationship to the next level?
34:38 Speaker 01 My biggest piece of advice around that would just be to have a really explicit conversation about what you both want and what you both think that this next step means. So specifically around moving in together, what I advise people is to have a conversation that says, does this mean that we're engaged to be engaged? Or does it mean that we're just moving in together? And if one of you thinks one thing and the other thinks something else, then you probably aren't ready to move in together. So sometimes when people are in that falling in love stage, they just assume, well, this is what I think and believe. So I bet the other person thinks the same thing. And that can often lead to really challenging results. So have the conversation around what it means, what you both want. And if it's around getting married, you know, do you want kids? How many? What are we looking for later in life?
35:23 Speaker 01 And the sooner that you can have those conversations, the sooner you can make sure that this is the right person for you and that you're on the same page.
35:29 Chris Duffy? I feel like all of the advice that you've given is applicable, whatever life stage you're at. But I imagine that many people are kind of like me, where when you're imagining these people that we're talking about, you're imagining someone younger. And I think it's interesting to challenge that idea because I know that one of your newest project is actually all about people who are dating later in life and having these same feelings, having these same experiences and struggles, but they're not in their twenties or thirties. They're in their sixties or seventies or maybe even older. What is different, if there is anything, about trying to date when you are later in life?
36:11 Speaker 01 I would say my bread and butter research and my experience was really with Gen Z and millennial daters. And then I had this opportunity to do the show for Netflix called The Later Daters. And one of the main reasons why I said yes is because of who the producers were. So it's the people who made Love on the Spectrum, it's the group that did Cheer and Chef's Table, and then it's Higher Ground, and specifically, Michelle Obama is the executive producer. But then, once I started doing it, I feel so lucky that it was with this population of 55-plus daters, because I really learned a lot from it. And I think the key thing that really came through for me is this idea that dating is a skill, that you don't just wake up one day at 60 after
36:52 Speaker 01 being in three marriages and really know how to find someone. I think it's something where you really have to slow down, take a step back, look at your past relationship history, look at the red flags that you've ignored, look at how you've changed and what you want now, and really make a conscious choice to date differently. And so I think, working with this older population, there's things that are clearly harder about it, such as the fact that people have more baggage, there's a smaller dating pool. But there's also advantages, like you might know yourself more, you aren't going to be raising kids with these people, most likely, so it doesn't matter as much if you have the same religion, or all of the same values that you might have wanted in somebody who you raised a family with. I think there's a lot of creative ways to be together.
37:37 Speaker 01 There's this thing called LAT, Living Apart Together. You don't necessarily need to combine your homes, you don't need to get married and combine your finances. I think there's a lot more relationship structures that people are exploring later in life. And so I think just this opportunity to work with this set of daters, it showed me what is universal about finding love, which is that we are looking for acceptance, we're looking for somebody to get close with, but also the things that are unique about dating in this time period.
38:05 Chris Duffy? What are the steps that you take to to actually do that?
38:09 Speaker 01 So I think the first thing that I would do for that person is I would want them to make a list of what they really want right now. So where are you in life and what are you looking for? Are you looking for companionship? Are you looking for somebody to sleep with? Are you looking for a travel partner? Are you looking for somebody who shares your hobbies? Really, what are you looking for right now? And really being open to that arrangement being different than the traditional marriage. Of course, you can pursue that, but also really think about how do I want to spend the next chapter of my life? So I think getting really clear on what you want and maybe even taking a look around and seeing what are the relationship structures that exist now that maybe did not exist a few decades ago.
38:51 Speaker 01 Then the next thing I would do is do some form of relationship audit. I like to do this in a spreadsheet, but somebody can do it however they want. Really look back and say, the major relationships in my life or the people I've dated for a while, how did I meet them? What was good about our relationship? What was bad about our relationship? What side of me did they bring out? What are things from this relationship that I would want in a future relationship? And make that list and take a look at it and say, what are some of the themes? Oh, I noticed that I've tended to meet all of these people through friends of friends. Okay, well, that's a clue for you for how you might meet the next person. Or I noticed that something that was bad in a lot of these relationships is that I didn't feel like I could be myself. Okay, well, that's really important information for you to know in the future.
39:35 Speaker 01 When you are dating, how can you be in a relationship where you make sure you do feel like yourself? And so really looking at these things, and this is what I do as a coach, is the pattern recognition. And then you kind of have a sense of who you are, what you want, maybe what's been holding you back in the future, and then you make a plan. And so I think the next piece is just how can you start to meet more potential romantic matches? So I think it might be signing up for a dating app. You might sign up for a speed dating event. You could email a bunch of friends and say, hey, this is vulnerable, but do you know anyone who might be interested in me? Here's a little bit about me and here's the kind of people I tend to be drawn to. And really putting It all out there in terms of trying to find those connections.
40:18 Speaker 01 And then the next piece is really going on first dates, trying to design first dates that bring out the best side of you, that really help you reflect. I have this list called the post date eight, and these are questions that people can ask themselves after a date that really train you to look for not who is this person on paper, which doesn't matter. But how does this person make me feel and what's our dynamic? And then from there, I think it's about being consistent, going on dates, being a good communicator, trying to learn from those lessons of running away from red flags and running towards green flags. And then just trying to be the person who you would want to be in a relationship and trying to find someone who brings out the best side of you.
41:00 Speaker 01 And hopefully from there, just finding that person that really fulfills the type of relationship structure that you're looking for right now.
41:06 Chris Duffy? If you are coming back to it from a long period of not having dated, or if you've been dating for a while, but never really gotten past that first, you know, first few dates, how much of dating is about changing who you are to make yourself the kind of person other people would want to be with? And how much of it is not that and instead finding the person who wants to be with you or changing your strategy? Cause I think that a lot of times people, when it's not working, it's hard to know if it's like, well, is this me or is this the other person or is this something else entirely?
41:49 Speaker 01 So in my book, I have this thing called the wardrobe test, which is a way for you to determine whether or not you should break up with your partner. And it sounds a little glib when you hear it, but it's in context of a lot of other questions. But it's something that I use with my clients and I found is helpful and we can just do it as an example. So Chris, I want you to think about if
42:12 Speaker 01 Molly were a piece of clothing in your closet, something that you wear? What piece of clothing would she be?
42:18 Chris Duffy? Wow, this is, I don't know.
42:21 Speaker 01 Just gut.
42:22 Chris Duffy? The reason I'm saying this is so challenging is I have like six pieces of clothing total.
42:26 Speaker 01 That's okay.
42:26 Chris Duffy? Okay, real things that I own, she's a Uniqlo gray t-shirt because I, it's a dependable everyday thing that I like. I like and wear all the time, but I don't think that captures the special.
42:34 Speaker 01 No, no, and it's not about like minimizing Molly's unique traits. It's just like, clearly you've determined that at this point in your life, a big part of your daily wardrobe is your gray Uniqlo t-shirt. And you just find yourself, you keep reaching for it.
42:49 Chris Duffy? Absolutely. It works. It's comfortable. It's something I wear without even thinking about.
42:53 Speaker 01 I think that's great. And you know, I think that's an answer for someone who's in a loving relationship. And some of the answers that I've heard over the years that are more negative are things like, my boyfriend is a wool sweater. It's keeps me warm, but it is itchy and I want to take it off. Or my boyfriend is a ratty sweatshirt or ratty t-shirt that I would wear to the gym, but hope nobody sees me in. And it's like, it sounds hyperbolic when I say it, but these are real answers that I've gotten. And it's like a chance for somebody to just tune in to at a gut level.
43:21 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
43:21 Speaker 01 How do they feel about their partner? And how does this person make them feel? And so I like the wardrobe test and I think it's worked for me. But then a few years ago, I was doing a, some sort of Zoom session. And somebody in the audience was like, what about a wardrobe test for yourself? Who are you? And so he was like, I feel like I am a sweatshirt with a broken zipper. He's like, I am not really functioning right now. I'm not doing well. I can't keep somebody warm. Like he just was being really hard on himself. And I thought that it was a really interesting point because so much of my book is about identifying your blind spots and then making better decisions in who you should be with. But my book isn't necessarily about like how to make yourself more desirable as a partner.
44:06 Speaker 01 And I think that there is something to that. Of course, be yourself, because if you pretend to be somebody else, that's eventually going to blow up in your face when the person realizes who you actually are, and then it's not going to work out anyway. So it's like, don't pretend to be the cool girl who loves sports and poker when you actually hate that. Because then you're gonna end up in a relationship with someone who thinks you are that and you're not. So I think the most basic answer is be yourself. But I think the more nuanced answer is that if you are someone who's not reliable, who isn't kind, who doesn't have their shit together, then why would somebody choose you? And what are the things that you can do to improve yourself? If you need to be in therapy to deal with some stuff that happened to you, please do that because that is going to make you a happier person and also make it easier
44:51 Speaker 01 for people to date you and not feel like they have to be your unpaid therapist. If you feel like you're just not very reliable and you constantly are breaking plans, well, who wants to date someone like that? That's very challenging. And so what are the things in your life? What are the processes that you can create or what are the systems that you can set up that will help you be more reliable? And so I think it's that, yes, you should be yourself because you want people to meet the real you. But if you feel like there are parts of your life that would make it hard for somebody to want to commit to you, then I would encourage you to work on those things.
45:24 Chris Duffy? It's funny to think about what I would be in the wardrobe test because I'm like, once again, it's a great t-shirt. And I do think that this just reveals how little I have in my wardrobe.
45:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, Molly, if you're listening, we think that you're a sparkly dress and you're perfect.
45:37 Chris Duffy? Yes, I gotta get one of those in my wardrobe. That's what I need.
45:40 Speaker 01 That's what you need. That's the best advice I've given you all hour.
45:43 Chris Duffy? Absolutely. Buy a sparkly dress so that you have this in your wardrobe. Well, Logan, thank you so much for being on the show. This was incredible. I really could have talked to you for 10 hours and that's the sign of a great interview for me. So thank you so much for being here.
45:54 Speaker 01 Yay. Thanks, Chris, and thanks for being interested and interesting.
45:58 Chris Duffy? I'll take it.
46:03 Chris Duffy? That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Logan Urie. Her book is called How to Not Die Alone, and her new Netflix show is called The Later Daters. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffeycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team so talented that they make me swoon. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balarezzo, Ben Ben Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Laney Antonia Lei and Joseph DeBryne. This episode was fact checked with loving care by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas. On the PRX side, we've got hot dates all around. Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Maggie Goreville, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez.
46:45 Chris Duffy? And of course, thanks to you for going out on this audio date with our show. You listening makes everything else possible, so thank you, thank you, thank you. You can listen on Amazon Music or you can just ask Alexa, play How to Be a Better Human on Amazon Music. Share this episode with a friend or a family member who you think would enjoy it and we will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.
47:15 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human and your gift will be matched five times.
48:03 Speaker 03 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini. That's G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.
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49:07 Speaker 04 Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.
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