Advice Line with Susan Griffin-Black of EO Products

Today’s callers: Ruchi from Chicago looks for advice on which channels to focus distribution for her probiotic skincare line. Then Peter in San Francisco considers strategies to champion his line of organic South African wines. And Dominic from Barbados asks about expanding his specialty coffee brand into international markets like the United States. Plus, Susan discusses how people and relationships can make or break your business. Thank you to the founders of Yobee, Culture Wine, and Wyndhams Bajan Coffee Roasters for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to EO Products founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/0b1d5297-da26-4894-a0f9-e29e516efbbd/embed as told by Susan Griffin-Black and Brad Black in 2019. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ or on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:17Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Susan Griffin Black, founder of the personal care brand EO Products. Susan, welcome back to the show.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me. So good to see you, Guy.

• 5:57Guy Raz?

  It is great to see you. We were first on the show back in 2019. You came on to tell us the origin story of EO Products and how you grew it from a 10-gallon pot in a garage into a major natural personal care brand. And we will put a link to that episode, of course, as we always do, in the show notes. You should go check it out. It's really, especially if you're interested, not just in skincare products, but in learning how to take a brand from basically a farmer's market to a massive national brand. This is the story that you got to listen to. Susan, I know that today you're focused on leading EO Products and continuing to grow the brand. Can you kind of tell us a little bit about what we left off in 2019? We've, of course, kept in touch. You've kept in touch with our team.

• 6:42Guy Raz?

  But for people who don't really know what's going on with EO, tell us a little bit about where you guys are today.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Well, when we spoke in 2019, we had a pretty clear growth plan and strategy. And then, surprise, COVID. I was on my way to our annual Natural Products Expo Trade Show in Anaheim. And as I was driving there, the trade show was canceled. And my sister called me, whose partner is an ER doc, and said, "Everybody's got to come home now." And I remember, it was like a Friday night. I woke up Saturday morning. We had a little retail store in downtown Mill Valley, and people were lined up around

• 7:29Speaker 01

  the block because they wanted hand sanitizer.

• 7:33Guy Raz?

  I mean, from what I understand, I mean, you saw like a 10x surge, right, in hand sanitizer demand during COVID. And thank you for sending some to you. You did. That was so nice. But of course, as the demand fell, you saw like a 50% drop in sales. And this was, of course, a challenge, probably one of the most challenging things you had to deal with.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  It really was. We...

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Because we'd been around for, you know, 25 years, I think people cut us as much slack as they could and we worked together. It was very relationship-based. A packaging company that we did maybe $30,000 worth of business prior to COVID. We were on the hook for $2 million.

• 8:24Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  And I had to link in with the CEO and just explain our story and see if he would give us a promissory note for the next two years to, and work our way out of that, which they did.

• 8:41Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  But it was, it was that and dealing with the problem of, you know, just three times as much, five times as much inventory as we should have. And then also layoffs for the first time, you know, that was.

• 8:57Guy Raz?

  In your entire history?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Major, yeah.

• 8:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I often come back to your episode because it really, and we've had versions of this on the show now, but it was so remarkable for, and for people who haven't heard it, is that you started this company with your then-husband Brad.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:14Guy Raz?

  You divorced in the middle of building this company and the two of you decided to stay running the business despite being divorced and despite going on and having new relationships. And it's a remarkable story because you together said, this is the best thing for the company. We're going to scale it together. I remember when we, when I interviewed you, just thinking, what an adult decision, like what a smart, hard but smart decision that you and Brad made. You know, because often you've got partner, founder-partners breakups that they're not married, they're just, they just are falling out. And what you guys managed to do was just incredibly hard but smart.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  I think it was smart, but, and it was good for the business and good for our family and good for our children. And, you know, when you're a founder entrepreneur, your business is kind of like another kid in some ways, right? So. It was really the highest good in this situation. And I also want to say for the record, you know, there were no other people involved and there was not like a betrayal. So, so I have to say that out loud because I've had this conversation over the years so many times and you know, people ask us all the time and we've been divorced for longer than we were married, you know, and we're, we're family, you know, that's just how we are.

• 10:39Guy Raz?

  Well, again, we will put a link to it in the show notes. It's a great episode, especially to understand founder dynamics. I strongly recommend people check it out. Susan, are you ready to take our first caller?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  I am.

• 10:51Guy Raz?

  All right, let's bring our caller on. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Susan Griffin Black, co-founder of EO Products. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. Hi, Guy. Hi, Susan. So honored to be here with you. Really love you both so much. So I'm Dr. Ruchi Gupta. I live in Chicago and my company is Yobi. And Yobi is a unique skin, scalp, and hair care line using our probiotic-based natural ingredients to protect that skin barrier.

• 11:24Guy Raz?

  Wow, thanks for calling. Should I call you Dr. Gupta or?

• 11:27Speaker 02

  No, call me Ruchi.

• 11:28Guy Raz?

  All right. Thank you for calling in. So you are a doctor and I'm assuming you're a dermatologist or skin? What kind of doctor are you?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  So I'm actually a pediatrician. I'm a professor at Northwestern and Lurie Children's and I lead a research lab that studies eczema and food allergies.

• 11:49Guy Raz?

  Wow. So I'm assuming that's how, yeah, tell me how this idea came about.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Well, it's very personal and as fate would have it, our daughter was born with severe eczema and cradle cap and I found myself using steroids and all these chemical-filled products on her. So she became the inspiration for our research. We got a team of dermatologists, microbiologists together and we finally developed this formula that cleared her skin. Then it worked for so many of our patients and then we thought we really need to share this with the world.

• 12:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah, because I mean, I think a lot of people listening have, you know, a little eczema on a bit of skin and my way of dealing with it, if I can avoid scratching it is to just not touch it and then it just goes away. You know, sometimes it could take a week or two or more, but that's not ideal.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so people talk about the microbiome and we think about it in the gut, right? A lot of people are taking probiotics, but we don't think about it on the skin and our skin contains billions of bacteria, fungi, viruses, and they all live in this harmony. Well, when this harmony gets disrupted, that's when your skin breaks down and you get that irritation, itching and breakdown of the skin barrier. And so instead of you like having this urge to itch and just avoiding it, you know, being able to put something on that skin that helps rebalance it and support that barrier, hopefully your itch will go away way faster.

• 13:22Guy Raz?

  And so you decide to start a skincare line. Tell me how, where you sell it and a little bit about how you can get it and how you're doing, how the business is doing.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Sure. So we have five products. We have a scalp mask, a shampoo, conditioner, skin cream and body oil. And we're currently selling on our website, yobcare.com. And then we also sell on Amazon and we are starting to sell in more like businesses like spas, salons, physicians' offices, many spas.

• 13:53Guy Raz?

  And tell me a little bit about how the business is doing. Like, how did you do in sales last year, for example?

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Yes. Last year, we ended with about 330,000 and we are growing and we're hoping this year to double or a little more than double that.

• 14:11Guy Raz?

  Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  So my question, we started talking about it, is where do we sell? Do we focus and double down on D to C or spread our focus and really get into these professional channels, spas, doctors' offices?

• 14:29Guy Raz?

  All right, let's let's dive in. Susan, please, please join the call here.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Sure, yes. I'm like, you know, holding back from jumping in. I'm so excited to meet you and did a little research on your website and I wish you were around when my kids were little.

• 14:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  You know, there because there's a real need for products that work that are not steroids. And so, you know, I'm not an expert really at D to C because we've sort of chosen a different path to be in natural food stores. And that can get quite pricey in its own right.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  But I like spreading out distribution because it all feeds back into D to C anyway if, you know, and it just gives you more exposure and more advocacy and more accessibility.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Well, and our products are for adults too. So Susan.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Right, I saw that, yes.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  But and we thought about Whole Foods because I know your story very well. And we did talk to our local Whole Foods. And to your point, you know, it's just the shelf space and the cost for being on shelves versus, you know, in offices where they're recommending you. So I'd love your thoughts.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Well, I love offices that are recommending you. I think that's terrific. I guess it's how do you scale that? And how much effort it takes to scale that, right? With what sales force and?

• 16:06Speaker 02

  You know?

• 16:07Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, the challenge, I mean, as you know, is the customer acquisition costs with D to C are just increasingly getting, they're just getting higher and higher, right? But it sounds like, I mean, by the way, what's the repeat purchases through the website?

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, about 40% right now.

• 16:24Guy Raz?

  Amazing. I mean, that's really great, right? So you already, you really want to double down on your existing customer base because that's really where you've got that long-term value. I think that you want to continue the D to C for sure, but you also want to focus on the other side, which is your story and the trust that is embedded in this product. I mean, I think about Organe, we had an episode on Organe a couple of years ago, and Andrew Abraham is a doctor, right? And he, as a young man, he had cancer and he was fed, you know, those like shakes to gain weight and they were horrible. And so he wanted to make a natural, better version of that, and that's how he created Organe. And that's the story he tells on that packaging.

• 17:09Guy Raz?

  I think that you could literally put your picture on there and say, I created this for my daughter, you know, in a research lab, because your story is so compelling and that's what you're selling, that's your asset, it's trust, it's not just the product. And so I think that you really, you know, while you continue D to C, you really want to see if you can get this into the hands of dermatologists and pediatricians and med spas and, you know, salons, because that's, it's about discoverability. And I would start in your area, like you're in Chicago, the Chicago area, I would really focus building it out there first, because to build it out city by city is going to be more expensive, you got to get a team to do that.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:55Guy Raz?

  But I think that's really where the... Right now, where you should put your energy?

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Okay, now, this is really helpful and that's, we were thinking about that. Let's start Chicago, let's call every salon, every spa, every med spa, every head spa, all these cool things that are

• 18:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  are starting to become popular. And then I'm trying to do, yeah, I've heard all your, not all, probably, but most of your episodes and, you know, your advice on, you know, getting yourself out there. So I'm trying to educate on social media and I wanna, you know, give sound information on eczema and skin, but on any health topics, you know, to really, I think that's my space, like you said, so I appreciate it.

• 18:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's so authentic, you know, and I also really like what you said, Guy, about local, you know, we got all crazy in the beginning and we'd be running, you know, you know, if you just get grounded, kind of where you are, who you know in the community and take like, you know, 150 mile radius to start and then it sort of ripples from there, maybe, you know, Merz Apothecary near you, you know, Zittmerz in New York, Erawan, you know, very high end, personal, been around a long time, still really care

• 19:21Speaker 01

  about serving their customers in that particular way and a lot of testimony and a lot of like really good people will show up on that path.

• 19:31Guy Raz?

  I totally agree. I mean, this is a huge market, right? I mean, eczema, any kind of skin issues, like

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:39Guy Raz?

  probably it's huge number of people, we're talking about

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:41Guy Raz?

  and I think once people discover it, you also wanna make it really easy for them to reorder. Are you using QR codes yet at all?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:50Guy Raz?

  Okay, great.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:51Guy Raz?

  You've got, you've got an email list? Are you sending reminders to people every couple of weeks or, you know, hey, time reorder or anything like that?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And subscriptions also, you know, possible, right?

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:04Guy Raz?

  Great.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  We started subscriptions on our website and Amazon and we do remind them if we don't see they've ordered in three months, we'll send them a hey.

• 20:14Guy Raz?

  And I noticed you have a blog on your site. Do you send that out to your mailing list, the articles?

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know if we.

• 20:21Guy Raz?

  Well, you should do that. I mean, it's this free advice from a medical professor. This is really valuable information. I would take the blog entries and turn them into a monthly newsletter and just to have to send it out to your customers. You're saying, hey, tell a friend and we'll give you 25% off your next order.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  It's a great idea. No, I really appreciate it. I mean, we're sending newsletters, but I'm trying to get more education out into the world.

• 20:45Guy Raz?

  That's it. It's all about that. And don't, and just give people free information that's useful. Don't ask for anything in return.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:51Guy Raz?

  Just give it to them. They will really, this is what we do. And this is the, this is the, the secret of this show. We just give out information that we know is going to be helpful for listeners. We don't ask for anything in return, except for your, your attention, which is actually asking a lot, but we don't ask you to give us money or anything. Just listen to the show.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:09Guy Raz?

  So I, I would, I would definitely think about that.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yes. And Guy, all as doctors, we like giving out free advice.

• 21:15Guy Raz?

  Because we trust our doctors.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  That's our goal is to help and support. Yeah.

• 21:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Thanks, guys. So giving away free education on any of these topics, eczema, allergies, et cetera, is, is my end goal.

• 21:27Guy Raz?

  Awesome.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 21:29Guy Raz?

  Thank you. The brand is called Yobi. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. So grateful.

• 21:39Guy Raz?

  All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 25:33Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Susan Griffin Black. She's the founder of the personal care brand EO Products and we are taking your calls. And let's bring in our next caller. Are you ready? Absolutely. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Susan Griffin Black of EO Products. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  Hi Guy and Susan. My name is Peter Andrews. I am based in San Francisco and I'm the founder of Culture Wine Company, which is an importer, distributor, and e-commerce retailer focused exclusively on new wave South African wines. So the wineries that I work with are all practicing organic farming and minimal intervention wine making. They're all small, family owned.

• 26:16Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Welcome to the show, Peter. So you bring in South African wines from these new wave winemakers. Tell me, and where do you distribute them? How do you, where do you sell them?

• 26:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I have three channels that my business is licensed in. So I have a DTC website, culturewineco.com, where I ship to 44 states around the US. There's also a wine club, like monthly subscription service in there. I direct distribute in California. And then I also am just started midway through last year, branching into other states with distribution partners. So I'm now in Tennessee, Georgia, and Washington State, and working on a few more now, hopefully before end of year.

• 26:58Guy Raz?

  Awesome. And have you been in wine for a long time?

• 27:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I've been in the food and beverage industry for my entire career. Started as a chef, made wine in Italy. I've worked in and opened and operated small bottle shops, and also worked in executive leadership for a local, very kind of luxury-focused wine retailer. But we were grossing 50 million a year by the time I left.

• 27:21Guy Raz?

  Wow. So how, so you started, you started this how long ago, this culture wine company?

• 27:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, I only started it in 2023. And it really was spurred from a trip to South Africa, where, you know, being in the industry, I can count on one hand how many times a distributor has come to show me South African wine. So I kind of took that as the quality wasn't that high. And it took a visit on a holiday where my inspiration was absolutely piqued. And because of that, I started the company.

• 27:54Guy Raz?

  How is the business doing? I mean, I, we're hearing a lot of, we've had wine, small wine businesses call, you know, call into the show, and we're hearing mixed things, right? I mean, I live in California too, and it's been challenging, to say the least, for many winemakers. How did you guys do last year?

• 28:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's been growing steadily since I've got my first container to California, which was only in November of 23. Uh, we were up last year 60%.

• 28:21Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 28:22Speaker 05

  And year to date, we're up over 150%.

• 28:25Guy Raz?

  Amazing.

• 28:25Speaker 05

  Um, Gen Z and millennials are definitely partaking, but they want experiences. They want to feel like they are seen in the product. And so I put on a wine festival here called Hella Shenan that's bringing together winemakers from not just South Africa, but California and France and even Australia this year. And I think this kind of grassroots element of it and creating community within it is really working. And so I just kind of keep staying true north with that, that kind of marketing strategy.

• 28:53Guy Raz?

  All right. Before we bring in Susan, uh, tell us your question.

• 28:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I'm not just trying to grow a business, but an entire category in South African wine. So how would you suggest to allocate my time and resources between growing cultures, wholesale and DTC businesses? While also increasing demand for South African wine more broadly.

• 29:12Guy Raz?

  All right, Susan, I want to bring you in. Any thoughts or questions that you might have for Peter?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Um, can you just tell us a little bit about South African wines? Like what was your sort of aha moment when you were visiting that prompted this track?

• 29:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I totally, I feel like we need a whole bottle of Chenin Blanc to, to go into this, but I think with South African wine, it's the oldest of, uh, the new world wine producing region. So they've been making wine for almost 400 years. But I think the best quality has been made in only in the last 30 since apartheid has ended. And I think historically, what we've seen come into the U S has been kind of focused on the value category. And I think especially in the last 30 years, you've seen the quality increase so dramatically that now the marketing needs to change. The messaging needs to change and we need to have better storytelling about the incredible, dynamic, young winemakers that are taking hold of the industry.

• 30:13Speaker 05

  So that's where my focus is. I only, I'm really trying to premiumize and change the narrative and make people realize, whether that's trade or consumers, that South African wine is, is world-class and worthy of being in Michelin restaurants, great bottle lists and just generally something you can drink.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do the high-end sommeliers and restaurants and just understand anything about South African wine because it's been at the lower end. Is it like sort of a Bevmo product or a? Where has it been traditionally at retail?

• 30:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think traditionally, the trying to sell wine nationally is very challenging. And usually that means the big guys get the most amount of representation. But I think the big guys have looked at South Africa as a way to create like an inexpensive category. So now that I'm coming in and bringing these small artisan, organic farms, making like seriously good wine. I'm trying to get the best sommeliers and wine buyers to say like, just give me 20 minutes of your time. Let me show you these wines and I promise once it's in the glass, it'll deliver. And it's been working. I've worked with several Michelin restaurants, Michelin star restaurants here in the Bay Area and around California. And they're selling the wine. My California distribution channel has an 80% reorder rate.

• 31:33Guy Raz?

  80%?

• 31:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:35Guy Raz?

  And that's wholesale?

• 31:37Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:38Guy Raz?

  Okay, so is that 80% of your entire business is wholesale?

• 31:42Speaker 05

  70% of my business is coming from the California direct.

• 31:46Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 31:46Speaker 05

  Channel and 80% of that reorders.

• 31:49Guy Raz?

  Okay. And what percentage of your business is direct through your website?

• 31:53Speaker 05

  So only 15%.

• 31:54Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 31:55Speaker 05

  Basically, the way that I've used that channel to date is all the wholesale work that I'm doing. Kind of funnels people into realizing I even exist. I haven't spent any money on digital advertising. I do have a pretty robust social media presence like through Instagram and I keep wanting to try to build that. But it's been entirely organic.

• 32:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  So there's a lot of opportunity there, but I've really just let all the work I'm doing wholesale kind of feed into the DTC side.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  And what's the tariff situation for you right now?

• 32:26Speaker 05

  So definitely a huge headwind. 2025, it was 30%. So it was the highest of all major wine producing nations. It's now reduced to 10%. But now we have the fun of a weakening dollar and rising fuel costs. So that's basically brought us back to square one. And I think that the real challenge with South African wine within that is there's not as much price elasticity. In regions like Burgundy or Champagne, there's kind of clout to it where you can say, hey, I have to go up in price 10, 15, 20%. You just don't have that that type of ability yet with South Africa. So margin pressure is definitely a real, a real concern.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  You know, you're so well situated with your relationships from, you know, your whole life of work.

• 33:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  My, um, my family was early in in the wine business in Paso Robles. They made small vineyard, Winward Vineyard, Burgundian Pinot Noir. That's all they made. So I've heard about all of the ins and outs of this for a lot of my life and really understand the relationship piece of it, that, you know, the people you know and that trust you will work with you and grow with you. And you're bringing something of quality. It seems very organic and natural that it'll work.

• 33:50Guy Raz?

  I agree. You've been in this business a long time. You've got so many relationships and so many advantages. And I, I mean, I'm assuming most of your sales are still in California, right?

• 33:59Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 34:00Guy Raz?

  But to me, it's, and you know this, having been in the business so long, like there are strategic places where you really want to double down. I'm thinking Nashville. I'm thinking Austin, you know, um, I'm thinking Chicago, not just New York and San Francisco, but Charleston, like places where there really is, um, more of a, an intentional, I, that word is overused, but intentional conversations around food and wine.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  No, you're, it's like you're speaking my language. I, uh, my goal, I think one of the biggest shortcomings with even the premium South African wines that have been here is they're very small producers.

• 34:39Guy Raz?

  Hmm.

• 34:39Speaker 05

  And they're put into far too many states. There's not enough wine to satisfy those states. And then consumers don't know who they are. And so my goal is to be in a small set of states with distribution partners that are cities like Charleston, Nashville, Chicago. I want to be able to go to those markets and train the distributors, train the sales teams and the sommeliers and wine buyers. So to your point, I just kicked off with my distributor in Tennessee two weeks ago, and we sold 100 cases of wine in three days.

• 35:13Guy Raz?

  Amazing.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  You know, so it's, there's so much potential in markets like that where it's just, it's, I think people don't think of it first like they would say New York, but you go there and there's incredible food scenes.

• 35:24Guy Raz?

  I think what you're really after is how do you, how do you create more demand for South African wine, right? And Susan may have a different view. And again, it's may just be because of my age, but I really tend to only drink whites now because reds are harder for me to drink, right? I love them, but, and maybe your younger customers, it doesn't matter. But if there was a way where you could really focus, like 70% of your inventory is whites, I just, I feel like that's been happening for a while. I might be wrong.

• 35:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. So you're, I mean, you're speaking to a broader industry trend. White wine is definitely outselling red wine these days. And it's partly why I started the Wine Festival. It only focuses on Chenin Blanc.

• 36:09Guy Raz?

  Chenin Blanc, which is amazing. I mean, right? It can't get better than Chenin Blanc.

• 36:14Speaker 05

  And South Africa grows, 60% of the world's Chenin now. So it's really become the homeland of it. So you're definitely very consistent with the industry trends there.

• 36:24Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Susan, any last thoughts?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  I love the idea of the white wine focus also because it really seems to be happening. And then anything that's, you know, more natural. And if they're growing regeneratively, then I would say make that, you know, just that word on labels and talking about it with customers because it really sort of exceeds the expectations of organic, that that would be a really good thing to focus on as well. Cause that's a real differentiator.

• 36:55Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 36:56Speaker 05

  Definitely. Actually, a couple of my estates are regenerative growers. So you're, yeah, definitely will highlight that more.

• 37:02Guy Raz?

  All right. Keep going. I hope we can, we've been a little bit helpful, Peter. But it sounds like you're on to something. I mean, especially as the broader industry has some headwinds. So congrats, good luck, and you know, keep us posted.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  All best, Peter.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 37:17Guy Raz?

  Culture Wine Company, check it out. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 37:35Speaker 06

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• 38:14Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with EO Products founder Susan Griffin Black. So Susan, let's go to our final caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Susan Griffin Black. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 38:32Speaker 07

  Hi, Guy. Hi, Susan. My name is Dominic Wyndham Giddens, and I'm calling you from the beautiful Caribbean island of Barbados. I'm the co-founder of Wyndham's Beijing Coffee Roasters and Cane Dog Coffee. We're a specialty coffee roaster where we're focusing on crafting coffees with vibrancy, flavor from our island experience, and we want to become an international Beijing coffee brand.

• 38:58Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay, welcome to the show, Dominic. And Cane Dog Coffee, is that your dog?

• 39:03Speaker 07

  Cane Dog Coffee is my dog, yes. My dog, the mascot is my dog, Macchiato, Mac for short.

• 39:10Guy Raz?

  And I'm assuming cane is the sugar cane, right?

• 39:13Speaker 07

  Sugar cane, yeah. So cane dog is technically the term for a stray, an animal that's born in the cane fields. They're friendly, they're scrappy. Regretfully, it's a negative. I found Macchiato on the side of a cart road, or a track road, you would call it. He came up to us, I saw him, I saw his beautiful eyes. Took him home, and now he lives a pretty good life.

• 39:38Guy Raz?

  I bet.

• 39:39Speaker 07

  And he's given us, he's our spirit guide in helping us pushing

• 39:43Guy Raz?

  I love it.

• 39:44Speaker 07

  our coffee around the world.

• 39:46Guy Raz?

  I love it. Okay, so when did you start this business, Dominic?

• 39:48Speaker 07

  We've been in this business for 25 years.

• 39:50Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 39:50Speaker 07

  It's all I've ever done.

• 39:52Guy Raz?

  In Barbados?

• 39:53Speaker 07

  In Barbados, completely. I started when I was 22 with my wife. My wife is actually our CEO. And so we've been married and in business together for 25 years.

• 40:04Guy Raz?

  Are you a lifelong Barbadian?

• 40:07Speaker 07

  I'm a Baegian. I was born, raised and educated in Barbados.

• 40:10Guy Raz?

  Wow, amazing. Okay, so you've got this coffee brand. Tell me a little bit about where you're selling it.

• 40:16Speaker 07

  So we sell it everywhere. That's just the truth.

• 40:20Guy Raz?

  Everywhere in Barbados?

• 40:21Speaker 07

  Everywhere in Barbados. We're a small, tiny island. So that's we've primarily focused on hotel, hotels, restaurants and cafes. We have a lot of high-end tourism. You then go to offices, then you go to supermarkets, you go to gift shops, you go to little, what you will call a bodega, a little rum shop. Wherever you can find someone who's gonna buy your product, we sell it too.

• 40:44Guy Raz?

  So you're everywhere in Barbados. And how are you, what are you generating a year in sales?

• 40:49Speaker 07

  We just this year hit about 2 million US dollars.

• 40:53Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And are your margins pretty good?

• 40:56Speaker 07

  The margins are good. Barbados is an expensive country to live in and work in. But, but, and we've grown on average organically 10% every year. And we have, we're breaking out. We do actually sell direct to consumer in the US, UK and Canada. We've shipped as far as China. People find us, they love us and they keep on buying it again and again and again.

• 41:22Guy Raz?

  All right. And you're also selling, I think you mentioned direct to consumer too, right? So what percentage of your sales are through your website?

• 41:27Speaker 07

  Well, we, yeah, so we started off as a food service company. So that is the bulk of sales. We're 80% hotels, restaurants and cafes. We then get into supermarkets. There's only two supermarket chains in Barbados. And so we are competing with a lot of international brands. You can't, because of our tourism is high-end. There's every international brand you could think of has come. The benefit is. Because of that, we're actually able to create and craft a product that is of international standard and even better. We have now won 25 awards in the UK for our products. And it gives us the want to say, can we push further?

• 42:11Speaker 07

  I mean, we used to import Italian espresso into Barbados. It's how I learnt everything that I know. But I'm importing an alien culture to my island. So why can't I do the reverse?

• 42:23Guy Raz?

  Got it. And the idea is you want to turn this into a brand beyond Barbados. Actually, what's your question for us before we?

• 42:32Speaker 07

  Well, I guess because and Susan is very important. As I said, my wife and I have been running this company. We've bootstrapped from the very beginning. Your story is very interesting, how you never took on investors. You have, I think you failed forward sometimes. You were always on the brink of failing. And that's sometimes that's how it happens with entrepreneurs is what happens. The challenge I have is I am based on an island. Everything that I do costs three times more. Just like I have to go do a trade show, I have to get on a plane. I can't drive to the next island or to the next country. How do you think I could scale my company internationally while still being based in Barbados?

• 43:15Guy Raz?

  Oh, interesting dilemma. Susan, I have some thoughts. I'm happy to start. I would love to hear your thoughts or any questions you might have for Dominic.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  This is a great one, really.

• 43:27Speaker 07

  Thanks.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  My question is like, where is the closest marketplace with the most potential?

• 43:34Speaker 07

  That is a great question. The closest marketplace will be the United States or the UK. The reason why we've always focused on the UK is because historically Barbados, we're colonized by the UK. We were like a jewel. We are actually known as Little England until we became both independent, but now a republic a couple of years ago. And the majority of our tourism, 60% are UK-based. The United States, obviously, is the behemoth. It is the powerhouse that buys everything.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And can you, can you tell which part of the United States? Or is it?

• 44:09Speaker 07

  It's all over. I, we do actually have, I would say Maryland, funny enough, Maryland works. Because we have one person who's been buying three kilos of our coffee since 2017 every three months.

• 44:22Guy Raz?

  So a couple of things, right?

• 44:24Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 44:24Guy Raz?

  We did an episode on Sunbum, the suntan lotion, many years ago. And it was created by a guy in Michigan. Okay, who's gonna buy suntan lotion from a guy who lives in Michigan? Well, he very smartly started by selling these in boutiques in Hawaii. Because he knew that affluent travelers went to Hawaii, they need suntan lotion, they would try it. And then they would go back home and eventually they would see this product and it would evoke those memories. The challenge you have, and I think it's solvable, is Cane Dog says nothing about Barbados. I mean, you have a great story. Caribbean, it's hospitality, warmth, music, culture, sunshine.

• 45:08Guy Raz?

  I don't see that in your branding. And I wonder if you can, because it's like, you know, there's a famous, this idea called the Provence-Alle paradox. I'm just quoting it because it's very funny. It's the idea that people go to Provence and they're sitting on a balcony somewhere and they're drinking the rosé that they're being served. And they're like, wow, this is, now I'm in Provence drinking this rosé. It doesn't even matter what it is, but it's, it's the pink wine. And they go home and they bring a case of it home and then they order it because of the experience. And I feel like that's what you want to tap into. Like, hey, you can have this island experience. At home with your coffee, right? You know what I'm saying?

• 45:50Speaker 07

  I fully agree. The reason why we went to Canedog, though, is also because it started off as a sub-brand. It was to us, it was not our main product. But here's the thing. We A/B tested it at trade shows. Everyone loves the name Canedog. I don't know why. The name just resonates with people.

• 46:10Guy Raz?

  I mean, even something like premium Caribbean coffee on the front. Like, you want to think about your brand as like a premium brand. Like, I don't think there's a single brand that people know of as a Caribbean coffee. I really feel like you want to really lean into that.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  I totally agree with Guy. Doesn't everyone want that T-shirt? Doesn't everyone want that, you know?

• 46:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Mug? And that artwork and that branding and that like does carry the day. And it's authentic, you know? I mean, it is the real story. And then that story travels. And especially for the people who have stayed there and want to bring something back with them because you just recreate that experience when you have a coffee. So that is a strong point.

• 47:06Speaker 07

  Understand fully, yeah.

• 47:07Guy Raz?

  Here's the thing, because you want to get this in the hands of Americans, in the hands of people in the UK, big markets. Very, very hard to do quickly, but you have an opportunity. I would say, take Canedog and start it and make sure, if you're not already there, to be in every single island. Martinique and St. Vincent and Guadalupe and Montserrat and Gila and all the British Virgin Islands. Make sure that that logo, that look, their stickers, the coffee, it's all over the Caribbean islands first. And then you sort of prove the concept and you'll find that organically it will start

• 47:43Speaker 01

  To migrate, right?

• 47:44Guy Raz?

  To spread out, to migrate.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Because, and so...

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Are you the only Caribbean coffee company?

• 47:52Speaker 07

  No, um, I we're we're not the only one. I think we're the only one with so many uh great taste awards. I think the challenge is, the real challenge is it's actually it's cheaper and easier for me to send goods to United States, the UK and Europe than to get it to an island that's thirty minutes next to us. Purely because of um trade treaties and all that, we can't get our products into the other islands, even though we're meant to be part of a group. They don't really work in that way. The United States is a massive market. That's the thing, but it's that's the point. It's a too, almost too big. And so it's like, where would you say, especially as where you were able to go maybe from door to door?

• 48:33Speaker 07

  I've completed that stage. I now need to say, okay, how do I take this leap from this little island? And where would you start, I guess, if you were me? I think that's the right thing. Where would you start if I wanted to break the United States?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  It depends on Maryland.

• 48:48Speaker 07

  Exactly. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go find him, yeah.

• 48:51Guy Raz?

  I I think it all depends on what kind of regional grocer you can get in with, right? So so maybe that could be your approach. And and let's say you got into HEB, then you'd go to Texas and you say, okay, we're gonna try to get into one HEB and hopefully we're gonna go eventually get to forty of them, or however many they have in Texas. But there are these regional grocery chains and I would think about it that way before you say, all right, I'm gonna start in New York, I'm gonna start in South Florida, or I'm gonna go to Maryland. I would start by trying to identify and pitch different small regional groceries and see which one is gonna give you a shot. And focus on that market first.

• 49:32Guy Raz?

  Book a two-week-long trip to the US and you go and you sell the hell out of this to any buyer you can. You give them this coffee and you say, this is what you're about to drink is gonna blow your mind. And maybe, maybe you'll hit. Maybe one of them will say, okay, let's give you a shot.

• 49:47Speaker 07

  Maybe what I can do is take one of my hotel clients and say, send me to one of your hotels in the United States and let me sell coffee.

• 49:55Guy Raz?

  Absolutely.

• 49:57Guy Raz?

  All right, Dominic, the brand is called Can Dog Coffee. Good luck, good luck, good luck.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, all best. We'll be looking. Bye, Susan. Yes, thank you, thank you.

• 50:06Guy Raz?

  All right, Can Dog Coffee. See, it sounds like I've had 20 cups of coffee this, today on this show, Susan. I'm all wired up. Susan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Before I let you go, though, I want to ask you this question, which is, because you started this brand, right? And you have now all of this experience, because you've been doing this for, you know, a few decades. If you could go back to you when you started out, right? When you started this out, and you could say, Susan, you need to know this, because I'm coming from the future, what would you tell yourself?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  I think really understanding who you are as a person and what's important informs so much and so many of our choices. This idea of starting locally and really, really engaging with people that you know, and you take that first 100 miles and you really go hard and strong and see what you learn and who you learn from and all of that, that is a great foundation and base to start from without driving yourself crazy to be in this market or that market or that, because those markets will always be there. And, you know, relationships rule the day.

• 51:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah, for sure. Susan, thank you so much for coming on the show again.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 51:28Guy Raz?

  That's Susan Griffin Black, co-founder of EO Products. And by the way, if you haven't heard Susan's original episode, as I mentioned, you've got to go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298.

• 52:12Guy Raz?

  Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Sam Paulson, Chris Messina, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.