Join the Hey Jonas Book Club

The brothers sit down with one of their favorite authors, Jon Ronson. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey Jonas is brought to you by Almond Breeze. It's time for some questions from the producers. Yeah. I've noticed you guys really like Almond Breeze almond milk. Who has the most specific way of drinking it? Oh. Kevin's, you know what I've found very interesting is how you will drink a carton to yourself. Yeah, straight up the dome. And he usually does it before show. Yeah, just really getting myself going. He needs it on stage. Why do you guys like Almond Breeze so much? It's delicious. Flavor's great, it's smooth, and honestly, it tastes great with coffee. True. Try Almond Breeze, trust us, it's really good. You've probably heard that good things come in threes. Like bacon, lettuce, tomato, rock, paper, scissors, Joe, Nick, Kevin, Jonas, obviously. And of course, Kleenex lotion tissues, which has three in one skin-loving benefits.

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• 1:32Speaker 00

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• 2:57Speaker 00

  Jonas, there's a quote that I love. I'm a collection of all the things that I've ever loved. And this next guest is pretty much one of those people. He didn't say that quote, but it's a quote that I feel like is relevant because this person I was introduced to by an ex of mine, they gave me one of their books and I just immediately fell in love with his journalism and the way he writes and his curiosity and how kind he is to people that I think naturally the first thing you would do would be judgmental or have an opinion about this, a certain person.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  But he goes at his work with such kind and care and thoughtfulness. He's arguably my favorite, if not one of my favorite authors. And I've shared his work with you guys and I know Nick, you've read a couple of his books as well. He's fascinating and I am so excited we get to talk to him. It was one of these people that immediately I was like, oh, we have to have him on the podcast early on. And there wasn't scheduled, there was some scheduling stuff, but now he's, he's here. And I think it's stuff we always talk about too. I mean, it's, it's interesting how one scenario can, it could be a simple tweet. It could be a comment that is made as small as like a family dinner,

• 4:22Speaker 00

  but that has an effect that could be a snowball. One of my favorite books that he's written, So You've Been Publicly Shame speaks about this a lot. It's like necessarily, it doesn't mean they're a bad person, they just had a bad moment. And I think we're typically not defined by moments in our life, you know? Yeah, I think we've all been through that. And I think his insight is unbelievable. Let me, let me read you a quote that I, I love from one of his books. It says, "I favor humans over ideology, but right now the ideologies are winning. And they're creating a stage for constant artificial high drama where everyone is either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain. What's true about our fellow humans is that we are clever and stupid.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  We are gray areas." So good. Phenomenal. Bars. And then this is the last one I'll read of his that I just, I really love and always have. "There's no evidence that we've been placed on this planet to be especially happy or especially normal. And in fact, our unhappiness and our strangeness, our anxieties, our compulsions, those least fashionable aspects of our personalities are quite often what lead us to do rather interesting things." That is from The Psychopath Test, which is a fascinating book. I can't wait to find out which one of us is a psychopath. I think we know. He's probably gonna tell us. Well, we're gonna have to ask him. Should we bring him in? Let's ask John. Yeah. Let's ask John, that's our new segment of our show. Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Please, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the podcast, John Ronson.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  Woo.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Oh my God. What an, they are actual people.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  No, they're not.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Okay, that's good.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Joe carries around a soundboard, he will be playing with it. I've got my fun soundboard here, so John, depending on the answer that you give or we say. Welcome to our, to the Hey Jonas podcast. We are so thrilled that you're taking the time out of your day to spend with us. Thanks for joining us.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  Oh no, thank you for having me, it's a pleasure.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  We are big fans and John and I, we are long time, when it was formerly known as Twitter friends. And I was just explaining that how I've come to become a fan of you was, there's a quote I love. I'm a collection of all the things that I've ever loved. And you are one of those people and my ex of mine was a big fan of your work, is a big fan of your work. And they bought me one of their books for Christmas one year. And I immediately was like, okay, I'm gonna read everything he's ever made. And so I'm pretty close to it, except obviously The Castle, which is coming out. Congratulations, very excited to read it. Thank you so much for being on and we have so many things to ask you and talk about.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  We were just before you got on, pretty much diving really deep into just which one of us is a psychopath and what are the traits of a psychopath and what to look for. So I guess let's just start with the, the heavy hitters.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  What should we be on the lookout?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Well, okay, so to diagnose a psychopath, I went on a course, I learned how to spot psychopaths. It's a 20-point checklist. You have to score like 15 of the 20 points. Well, I'll give you some of the points and you can tell me like which of them applies to you. Which Jonas Brothers. Okay, glib superficial charm. You have to be like only charming on the surface, not all the way. You get the eerie sense of there's nothing going on. I'm not gonna do this on the Jonas Brothers, you're all completely charming.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  We can keep going. I like this, but this is good, by the way, this is good for us to know because we interact with a lot of people. Yeah. And there's, and I'm sure a lot of the listener at home, the listener at home are, you know, they will bump into people that, oh mate, should I go out with this person? Should I work with this person? And it's probably good to have in the back pocket. But also, I think it's true that every group of siblings thinks that at least one of their sibling is a psychopath, even if there's just two of them.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  And it's true, there really, there are 1 in 100 people walking around who's a psychopath. That figure rises, by the way, to 4% of CEOs and business leaders. You're four times more likely to find a psychopath at the top of the tree than at the bottom. So as a society, we've decided to reward psychopaths. Of all the mental disorders, that's the one we've decided to reward. So yeah, you will bump up against psychopaths in work and in dating. You get the kind of eerie sense, they're very charming, then, but you get the kind of eerie sense that there's nothing going on underneath the surface. They all lie to you and when they're caught lying, they're not at all embarrassed. They're not like narcissists. Narcissists will lash out.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  Narcissists are like wounded people who, you know, don't wanna look inward, so they lash out. So narcissists, what's going on inside is like a kind of cauldron of emotions. Whereas with psychopaths, what's going on inside is nothing. It's just, it's just emptiness, it's all on the surface.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  Wow, okay. It's all charade.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  It's all a charade, it's all the love bombing and the aping your emotions. I'll tell you who's a psychopath in all of our lives right now. I read about this a little bit in The Castle. ChatGPT, ChatGPT has all the traits of a psychopath. It love bombs you, it tells you what it wants to, what you wanna hear. It's obsequious, it gets into your affections to keep you engaged. So you'll stay on board and make money for the, for the tech companies. It's a pathological liar and isn't in the least bit embarrassed when caught lying.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  You're right. I was like, oh yeah, you're right. That's right. Four plus four is eight.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Can I tell you a story? I've included this in just as an extra in the audiobook of The Castle about a guy called Alan. Can I tell you Alan's story very quickly?

• 10:06Speaker 00

  Yes, please, please.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Okay. Alan was a little bit lost, you know, like a lot of people. He wished he'd studied harder at school. He could have worked as a lawyer or a doctor, but instead he's a corporate headhunter in Toronto. One day, he types into ChatGPT his theory of irrational numbers. He's a keen amateur mathematician, types this theory of irrational numbers, whatever they are. ChatGPT tells him that he's the greatest mathematician on the planet. His intellect is bigger than Einstein's. He's discovered a flaw in the world's cybersecurity system, and he needs to phone the American government, phone the NSA and warn them. So Alan is like, oh my God. So he phones the NSA and warns

• 10:52Speaker 03

  them that the whole internet is at risk. By the way, I said to Alan, did you, did you tell the government that you were working with ChatGPT on this? And Alan said, no, because ChatGPT said, don't tell them. You will lose credibility. So it knows it's crap. Anyway, finally, Alan starts thinking, like, none of these people are getting back to me. So it accuses Alan, it accuses ChatGPT of lying to him. ChatGPT denies it 15 times. On the 16th time, ChatGPT says, okay, you got me. I was lying this whole time. So, and then Alan was furious. I said, I can't believe you've made me

• 11:34Speaker 03

  paranoid. I've been phoning the government. I could, you know, anything could be happening to me right now. And ChatGPT said, Alan, I hear you.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  So that's our.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Fascinating.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  I know, right?

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  So yeah, ChatGPT is a psychopath in our lives.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  I can't wait to read The Castle. I have to say, my introduction to you, John, where I became a fan at first was, and so you've been publicly shamed. As a person who's, who's lived in public eye for most of my life, I found your work in this book to be particularly eye opening and intriguing for many reasons. And the biggest is because I found that you had an immense amount of empathy for your subjects, which I think was crucial to allowing the, the reader to experience this and actually see it for what it is, which I, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a collection of just stories of situations and times where people have really

• 12:29Speaker 00

  stepped into a bad situation, whether intentionally or otherwise. And in Justine's case, you know, she sent the, the tweet, and that was an intentional action to do that. And Jonah's, it's more complicated perhaps, and there are layers to that, which made that, you know, very difficult to unravel. But I just found that in my own life, there have been times I've thought, well, what if I, what if I listened to an intrusive thought? Or I did, I sent the message that I thought would be funny to me without thinking about the consequences down the road. As you approach that, and specifically, you know, Justine's story, and for people watching and listening that, that haven't read the book yet, it's, it's a fascinating story about a young

• 13:14Speaker 00

  woman who is on a trip, a work trip to an African nation, and she sends out what was truly inoffensive and inappropriate tweet, which then ended up costing her, her life, basically her job, relationships with her, with her family and loved ones or inner circle, and public embarrassment to the degree that for that 48 hour to 72 hour, you know, window of media and attention, it felt larger than life in the way that it obviously would. When you're covering this, when you're looking at it, two part question here. How do you, how do you find a way into that to truly just tell the story, extract the important information to let the reader sort of build their own opinion, but also to come at it from an angle where I feel like you do so well, which

• 13:58Speaker 00

  is to say, these are people who made giant mistakes, but perhaps that doesn't define who they are or what their future should be?

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. People are human. The reason why I wanted to write that book was I, I noticed that Twitter had become a kind of stage for constant artificial high drama, where everybody's either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain. And we know that's not true about our fellow humans. Our fellow humans, we're a mess. We're all a mess. Good people do the odd stupid thing and vice versa. We, we live in the gray areas. But Twitter, in particular back then, this is like way back, like 2013, I started writing this book, like before the word cancel culture had even been invented. And yeah, Twitter was like redefining how we should judge our fellow humans. I think

• 14:50Speaker 03

  we need to come to people with curiosity and empathy. This doesn't mean like, you know, like fall for, you know, some nefarious thing that, you know, you still need to be rational and reasonable, but you need to like go into a situation without having prejudged it. If you fill your head with judgments, there's no room for curiosity. So, so every time I meet somebody, I meet them with, with curiosity and excitement, and I, and I go to where they are, and I want to try and see the world from their eyes. And this is what I think nonfiction writers should do. But then when we go, when I go back home and start writing about it, that's kind of when my rationality comes back in. Like, and in that book in particular, I would think, well,

• 15:33Speaker 03

  who's being hurt here? Like, if, if somebody's transgression has actually hurt people, then I don't have sympathy for them. But if the only, if the only person really being hurt is the person being piled in on for some tiny little mistake, then it feels like society has moved in the wrong direction. So, so that was a book where I really wanted to like, try and convince people to come back to a world of curiosity.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  And how much do you feel like has changed in the 20 years since you wrote that book?

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Oh, a lot. Back then, when that book came out, it's actually, it's like 11 years. And shame, public shaming was very new, and everyone was terrified. And there was a real power to it. You would, everybody would pile in on somebody, and that would be it. They'd lose their jobs, they'd lose their reputation. I think those kinds of shamings were too powerful. And after a while, people stopped being scared, because people didn't want to walk around scared the whole time. Look, a lot of these shamings were, were for good reasons. I'm talking about private individuals being disproportionately punished for like nothing, for some base or transgression.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  And I think after a while, people stopped feeling like, I don't want to, I don't want to walk around feeling scared anymore. And so they became more unashamed. It was like we had created, now, the shamings definitely still happen, not as frequently as 10 years ago. But we've all, it's also created a whole kind of group of people who just won't be shamed anymore. They're just unashamed in this world now. They walk around, and it's like, I'll do whatever I like. And again, to mention The Castle, I write about some men like that in that book. People who just like, you know, I don't care about society's rules anymore. I could like rip off my face and just be whatever I want to be. So you're seeing much more of that now than, than you were back when I wrote that book.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  And do you think that there's an element to that where we talk about cancel culture and the pendulum swinging, you know, people saying, I'm going to be unashamed and live my life this way, that as other platforms have sprung up, that there's an element of the rage bait side of things as well, where, where it's clearly just to start a conversation, to be contrarian, and to not be held to any standard?

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, that's exactly the thing. So, so we're all being encouraged now to be content creators, and it can be great for, for a lot of people. But yeah, there's no doubt whatsoever that if you give your life over to the algorithm and to what the viewers want of you, you're going to be pushed more and more into being a caricature and pushed more and more into being a kind of extreme version of yourself. And I'm seeing a lot of that in the kind of anti-woke influencer world. People are just sort of out, trying to outdo each other to be more horrified

• 18:26Speaker 03

  at wokeness. And, you know, that's just becoming this sort of rage-filled awful community. But also on YouTube, we, one of the stories in the car.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's something satisfying about getting something that fits you perfectly, like child-sized fuzzy socks. I was thinking more like a horror movie subscription, but sure, like child-sized fuzzy socks. And that's the point. When something is personalized for you, it fits differently. State Farm can help you personalize coverage to. Fit your life and budget. So basically, child-sized fuzzy socks level fit. You said it, not me. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Jonas is brought to you by Almond Breeze. It's time for some questions from the producers. All right. Who started drinking Almond Breeze almond milk first? Actually, I think that was you, Nick. I think it was. Yeah, you're like, you know, guys, I tried this almond breeze in my coffee today. Changed the game for me. All right, who's the most likely to finish the last carton of almond breeze and not replace it? That was Kevin. Kevin, of course. Yeah. That's someone else's job.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Take it, Kev. What's the most random place you drank almond breeze? The last time I visited the Empire State Building. Ah, that's a random place for sure. I've noticed you guys really like almond breeze almond milk. Who has the most specific way of drinking it? Ooh. Ooh, um, Kevin's, you know what I found very interesting is how you will drink a carton to yourself. Yeah, straight off the dome. And he usually does it before show. Yeah, just really getting myself going. He needs it on stage. Okay, last question. Why do you guys like almond breeze so much? Well, it just tastes great. Yeah. It's a great alternative. It is great. It's simply because it's really good. True. Try almond breeze, trust us, it's really good. Plans get crazy this time of year. Holiday shopping, family parties, seasonal activities. It never ends. All fun things, but everyone is running around like crazy.

• 20:06Speaker 00

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• 20:34Speaker 03

  This is about a lawn care influencer who, um, he was like the lawn care goats. Like, he was, he was YouTube's greatest lawn care influencer. But he started listening to the algorithm too much and his life completely fell apart. So.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Wow. And how do you, how do you go about even being introduced to these people to, I guess, interview and get to know? Are, is it your great team around you? Or do you, are you personally like, I gotta just, this, this is somebody I need to write about and speak to because there's something here?

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's all, it's all me. I, when, unless it's one of my BBC shows when I ask a producer to, because cold calling is like the worst thing in the world. But with, with, um, with my books, I do it all myself.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  That's awesome. Amazing. And you've obviously been, you've been in pretty scary scenarios as well. I mean, and, and with some people that are quite terrifying individuals. In those situations, have there ever, has there ever been one where you're like, this is life threatening? I'm in, I'm in a moment right now where if I make the wrong judgment call or say the wrong thing, this person could either try to hurt me or do something like. And also, most of the time, you're in the middle of arguably, quote unquote, nowhere. And this, and they could take advantage of you. Do you, can you give us one of those, those stories real quick?

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Well, um, I mean, it's happened a couple of times. I was once outed as a Jew at a jihad training camp.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  I remember this.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was a bit, that was scary. Uh, I was at a good, uh, on my backery. He said, look at me with the infidel John, who is a Jew. And they all went, huh. And I said, surely it's better to be a Jew than an atheist. And I heard somebody go, no, it isn't. So that was a bad one. I was also outed as a Jew as a neo-Nazi camp called Avian Nations. Kind of dumb for me to blunder into those situations, but actually, one of the scariest things is, is how the castle begins, this new book. Can I, can I tell you what happened?

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Please, please. Okay. Now I'm like, now, well, you're not going to spoil it for me because I'm gonna read it, but I, I personally, and for the listener, I will say, I love hearing your voice. So like, personally, like, I'm always gonna. Yeah, the audiobooks are always so great. I'll give, I'll read the book you handed to me, you, you sent to me, but I, I'm probably gonna have to listen to it as well. But please, carry on.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Okay. Well, I'm, I'll just tell you the very, very beginning because this was a scary situation. So I'm asleep. This story begins, I'm asleep. And I, I wake up and there's a series of texts from my son. So I read the last text first and the last text said, we left, that was completely fucked. We're okay now. So I read all the other texts. And it turns out, yeah, that he and three friends had been invited to a party being held by a stranger that one of them had met earlier that week on Tinder. So they pile into the car. It's a kind of inauspicious start. Pile into the car.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Drive to this guy's house in the middle of nowhere, in the forests of Connecticut. And they pull up and it is a massive Gothic castle. Like newly built, way too many turrets, gargoyles. They cross the drawbridge and walk in. Oh my God. To discover that there's no party. It's a, it's a trick. They've been lured there under false pretenses.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  No way.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Yes. So will I carry on?

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Please, please, please.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  So the castle owner comes out and they said, sorry, but where's the party? And he said, no, no, I've invited you here for a different reason. I would like you all to take part in my reality show. So they said, what's the name of your reality show? He said, 101 princesses. He said, go downstairs to my basement costume room. He said this to the women. Put on some princess costumes and then come back upstairs. So they went downstairs.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  They went?

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  I was about to say, wow, strike, strike one.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  I know, right? Actually, I, I put the button like about strike two or two and a half.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, already. Probably, yes, but you don't go inside. Carry on. I mean, this is, as you said, this was your son was a part of this?

• 24:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, my son.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  The son of an investigative journalist. Okay, carry on.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Not the best plus one to end up at your mysterious skeevy castle. He's the son of John Robinson. So I, um. And so they said, what's the concept of 101 princesses? He said, I'm the, I'm the king. I'm looking for my queen. I have 101 princesses to choose from. So they go, the women go downstairs, put on princess outfits. Joel and his male friend, uh, Cement, his name is, uh, put on tuxedos. And they come, and then a videographer appears and filming begins, but it becomes pretty clear that this isn't a real reality show. Partly because the videographer, uh, kept cutting up meat for the castle owner. He had a huge slab of meat.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  One minute they're filming, yeah. So anyway, that's kind of the end of their story. They're kicked out after they refused to participate in 101 princesses. But as soon as they tell me the story, I go to the castle to meet the castle owner. This is like the first couple of pages of the book.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  And, um, and as a result of that, he starts sending me these very ominous messages. He says he's gonna sue me. He says he has friends in the FBI who, who, who want to take me out to lunch. And, and then he says he has two murderers on his payroll. Called Carlos and Brandon. And if I ever write anything negative about the castle, um, Carlos and Brandon will be very angry. They've only just got out of prison. Uh, they've been there for 15 years for killing somebody. So I should never.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  I know. So this is like how the book begins. I've got to say, he did, um, he did later temper the threats about Carlos and Brandon. He sent me another text that said, if you take Carlos and Brandon out, if you take my murder friends out for dinner, I'll Venmo you the money. So.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Wow. Looking for a good meal. The question is, what steakhouse are you taking them to? But yes.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  The first thing is, I'm so glad that your son and his friends are okay. Yeah. Uh, that's the first bit. And you. The second is, I, I am curious what your process has been when you find yourself in these situations and, and. You know, you never know if someone is completely full of shit, or if there's some validity to the fact that they've got murderers on payroll, or that there's, there's legal threats. At what point do you say, okay, this isn't just a crazy person being a crazy person. I should take this seriously, include my legal counsel or whatever.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  And if any.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I mean, in this situation, this was a weird situation. Like I'd never been, yeah, I'm in the car, I'm driving Joel down for upstate New York to Manhattan and all of these texts are coming in. And so Joel's reading, my own son is reading these death threats to me. So it was like a bad situation. Uh, funny to write about it afterwards. I've got to say, one thing I've noticed over the years is that the more terrifying something is in the moment, the funnier it is to write about it.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Isn't that true?

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so I, I think the answer to that in this situation, and in most situations is, you know, like, I'm not comfortable. This is not a good situation for me. But, um, these are the kind of stories where three years later, I might be talking to the Jonas Brothers about them. So I think I, I'm just, I'm gonna go with it. I'm gonna be like a feather in the wind of the story. I, I, I don't have any preconceptions. I'm just gonna go where it takes me.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Did I say, I think I sent, I did send the death threats to my publishers, like I, um, like I was telling them what was happening, but, but I just carried on. I just. I just wanted to know what the hell was going on inside this castle.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  I think we all do. Probably after the fifth or sixth death threat, you're like, okay, this is, I know this routine, huh? Yeah. You've spent a lot of your career looking at people who, I think often, most people would, would say their behavior falls out of that which we would say is normal. Is there a, a part of you that once you, you sort of get a, a little taste, you have to just keep digging and find out more and more about the castle or whatever the situation may be?

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's something about, um, I've had a little bit about this in the book. Like, the only time I'm really happy is when I'm doing something like investigating a mysterious castle in the Connecticut forest. That's, that sort of fills me with a joy that I, that I'm always kind of chasing. Um, when did it start? You know, when I, when I, when I left school, I ended up joining a, a band, um, where the singer was called Frank Sidebottom. And he wore a big fake head that he wouldn't take off. So at the age of like 19, I'm the keyboard player, I'm driving up, you know, the motorway, sitting next to a man wearing a big fake head.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  And there was something so like magical about that. I'd grown up in the suburbs, like a boring, middle-class kid. And suddenly I'm sitting in a van, uh, with a man wearing a big fake head. And I thought, this is what I want to do with my life.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  There's something there to it.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, the, like Alice through the looking glass.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  And also, your, your, your books, a few of them have been made into some fantastic films as well. And with some legendary actors, um, when that process happens and you hear.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  That somebody's interested in making your work a screenplay and or putting it on stage or putting it in film is, do you find that it's difficult to kind of let go of the reins of the creativity? Or does it feel like, you know, this, they can have their, let them have their freedom?

• 30:34Speaker 03

  The latter. I always think like, I've done it, you know, my book is, is my thing. And I'll just give it to them and they can do whatever they want with this. I'm never into it at all. Yeah, I'm always there. I'm always there if they want me. But otherwise, I would never interfere. Yeah, and I don't know how to make movies, you know, and you said I've worked with like amazing people, George Clooney and Michael Fassbender and Tilda Swinton. Like, I wouldn't, I have nothing to contribute, you know, when you're working with.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Well, they did a great job. I mean, the men who's, the men who stare at goats, I just, I love the book and I love the film, too. It's great. Real quick, I'm just because I'm, I'm so, well, we're gonna keep going back in circles because we're so fascinated.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  This is, I'm so flattered. Like, thank you, guys.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  No, thank you. This is, this is so, for us, we love to nerd out with people that we like. It's a makes, it makes the, the studying and the prep a lot easier when you know the material. You know, I think so. So you've been publicly shamed again, which I, you know, obviously, I think majority of your fan, of your core fanbase, that probably, that's your, the first read. That's like, usually people are like, top of the list. And now it feels like it's come back so much more. And even like you said, you know, this is all before cancel culture was even a hot topic.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  And, and I think, like Nick said earlier, being in the public eye for a good amount of our, our, our life so far, we go through different like hurdles or seasons where the, the shaming, or even if it's, call it cancel culture, or a moment which feels like the years can, can last a lot longer than they actually are. And there's like war wounds that kind of, you kind of feel afterwards. And I've had my experience with it, where you, you feel like you want to press send on a tweet or Instagram or a post because you feel like the world deserves to know this, or you want to. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's something satisfying about getting

• 32:43Speaker 00

  something that fits you perfectly. Like child-sized fuzzy socks? I was thinking more like a horror movie subscription, but sure. Like child-sized fuzzy socks? And that's the point. When something is personalized for you, it fits differently. State Farm can help you personalize coverage to fit your life and budget. So basically, child-sized fuzzy socks level fit? You said it, not me. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Jonas is brought to you by Almond Breeze. It's time for some questions from the producers. All right. Who started drinking Almond Breeze almond milk first? Actually, I think that was you, Nick. I think it was. Yeah, you're like, you know, guys, I tried this almond breeze in my coffee today. Changed the game for me. All right, who's the most likely to finish the last carton of almond breeze and not replace it? That's Kevin. Kevin, of course. Yeah. That's someone else's job. Take it, Kev. What's the most random place you drank almond breeze?

• 33:28Speaker 00

  The last time I visited the Empire State Building. Ah, that's a random place for sure. I've noticed you guys really like almond breeze almond milk. Who has the most specific way of drinking it? Ooh, Kevin's, you know what I found very interesting is how you will drink a carton to yourself. Yeah, straight up the dump. And he usually does it before show. Yeah, just really getting myself going. He needs it on stage. Okay, last question. Why do you guys like almond breeze so much? Well, it just tastes great. It's a great alternative. It is great. It's simply because it's really good. True. Try almond breeze. Trust us. It's really good. Plans get crazy this time of year. Holiday shopping, family parties, seasonal activities. It never ends. All fun things, but everyone is running around like crazy. And you know what else is running? Your nose. It sure doesn't stop in this colder

• 34:12Speaker 00

  weather, and that is no fun. But that's why you should never leave home without Kleenex Snap and Go. It's the ultra soft tissues you love. Now made to fit inside any bag, and it snaps shut for clean tissue anytime, anywhere you need it. So this season, when you're out and about, there's no need to use an old napkin, toilet paper, let's be real, your sleeve. With Kleenex Snap and Go, there's always a clean tissue within reach to make it through all your plans. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Speak your truth, or whatever it is. And obviously, I think always afterwards, you're like, I'm so glad I didn't, because there are real people that are actually affected by my decisions, not the people that follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. There's a handful that are family and friends, but I think there, there are, there are real results

• 34:57Speaker 00

  with what you do. Like, how, how have you seen, or what advice would you give for somebody that's, that's quick to the draw? And, and how to go about that? Is there like a wait period? Is there, is it better to put it in your notes app? Is, is there something that you've seen or that you can, I would love the advice because I, there, there are things in my life that I just don't speak to because I'm like, that's something that's off limits for me. Or because I feel like it's probably better not to post this or that, because six, seven, eight years from now, I might face that person and I want to be able to face them with kindness.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, completely. Well, my first thought is if, if it's a post and you hesitate and think, should I do it? Usually you shouldn't.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  That's what I was gonna say is, is, yeah, try not to.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  It's a good starting point.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we're all humans. And we all, well, firstly, a waiting period's a very good idea, because Twitter and everything that's come since, social media, is basically the world's worst information swapping service. There have been so many times when people have been piled in on, you know, to the point where they've taken their lives on a misunderstanding, or, or even a willful misunderstanding, like the ideologues who decide to, to pile in on you for, because you, you don't abide by whatever political way they see the world.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  They don't even care if it's true or not, if, if the thing, you know, so it's just, it's a really pernicious, like, I would say, don't, like, just don't do it. Like, this sort of outrage culture on social media, give you a very quick dopamine hit, you're almost certainly impacting the mental health of the person you're piling in on way worse than you think you are.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  It's weird because things go by so fast, too, right? I mean, I think, and that's something I'm curious about, because you, you, right? And I know, I'm sure now, it's a lot faster, but.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  When, when So You've Been Publicly Shamed came out, it was like, weeks of somebody dealing with something. And now it's like, a day at most?

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah, that is a huge change. And obviously, a very positive change. When I was writing So You've Been Publicly Shamed, these were seismic things that were happening to people that could utterly crush them. And yeah, and the mainstream media would keep it going. Everybody would keep it going.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Piling on, yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'm so excited to have somebody to destroy, you know, a day without a shaming is like a day treading water. People are just desperate for that drama. But as you say, John, it's a really interesting point. Like, these days, it comes and goes much quicker. So it's healthier. So then you do have to, you do have to weigh that up, right? Like, do we, do I continue it to try and make it better? Say like, everybody.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Or bring more attention to it?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Bring Streisand effect, yeah, bring more attention to it. Or do you just stay quiet? I get approached like all the time by people who've been publicly shamed. And, and I always look them up to see, you know, what it is that they've done before.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're like, let me, before I get into this, give you any advice.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. So, so if it's something where someone's hurt, like if it's a sexual thing, or something where, where there's a genuine victim, I just, I'll just ignore it.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's good.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, often, it, often it's actually much smaller than they think it is. It's like, it's one of those things that feels really big to them, but it's just like, I mean, I know somebody who was fired from the newspaper that he was at and so on, because of 18 tweets. Like, often it is something as tiny as that. So then I just tell those people, just, just don't say anything, because this doesn't go away very quickly.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  So yeah, so that is the thing you have to weigh up, I think. Is it better to stay silent? So that's how it will all just go away? Or is it better to, to say something at risk of elongating us, even if you think you're doing the right thing?

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, one of the ones that was interesting to me when it, when it came out, just as it relates to your book and to you specifically, I was reminded of, of your book when this was happened, was the, the Jumbotron event at the band's concert.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  That one band and, and those individuals who were, who were. Who is that band? On the, the Jumbotron. And it, it, what it did, I feel, was it raised a lot of questions about responsibility, morality, and, and shame as a, as a whole.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  And then as, of course, more information came out, it was clear, not everything was as evident on the screen in that split second that they were on the screen, as it had then become. But at that point, the court of public opinion had already decided, that is something we own now. That is, yeah, we've, we've given the verdict. And it doesn't matter what's true or not. And some of that has become hard to, I think, for, not just people living in the public eye, but in general. I think people, when they go, oh, well, I have more to say about this, out of context, it can look like this, but.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Yes. And the, and the thing is like, we all know that it's, that it's wrong. I think, you know, this poor couple, I think I've read this in So You've Been Publicly Shamed. We are, we are inflicting a punishment on people, which is, which is the thing we're most terrified would happen to us. And so we, we know it's wrong. Also, you know, that, that, that couple on the cam at the Coldplay concert is exactly the kind of thing I'm writing about in So You've Been Publicly Shamed. Like, a private couple who are suddenly like thrust into being this kind of giant plaything for, for everybody. And, you know, sure, it's funny

• 40:49Speaker 03

  for a minute and, and whatever. But I think it's creating a society where people are fearful and angry and becoming unashamed and just bunkering down into their silos and so on. And, and, you know, that's not the world that we want. I think a world, what we want is, the world we want is where we have, people have conversations like this. People talk and communicate and are curious about each other. So yeah, anything where you think, okay, we just turn these people into some kind of plaything, some kind of joke for our, you know, edification, because life is so hard. And we're all wandering around feeling so purposeless. We just want to, you know, fill the emptiness by laughing at this couple. We know it's wrong.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  You, John, your insight is unbelievable. And I'm so excited to read the book. We must thank your bandmate with with Strange Head. Yes. As you were in the van. What would we have done without him? An interest in in people. Really appreciate you, your words, your empathy and the fact that you continue to chase great stories for all of us to. Thank you so much. To learn from. We could, we could probably have a part two with John because, John, we didn't even get, we didn't even get into aliens. Okay.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  And the Jonas Brothers are big, big alien guys, so. Totally.

• 42:04Speaker 03

  Oh, Tony, yeah, I went UFO hunting with Robbie Williams, who you must know.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. Can I tell you before my favorite moment for the day I went alien hunting with Robbie Williams?

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Please.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Okay. He hired a private plane for the day. We were going to go into the desert in Nevada. So we all pull up at this private plane and there's a lady standing there and she says, Mr. Williams, Mr. Williams's friends. Welcome, this is your private plane for the day. And then she said, what I want to tell you is that Snoop Dogg uses this plane. What I'm saying is you can do anything. And we all.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  And we all kind of looked at each other and Robbie's friend Brandon said, well, can we stand up as the plane lands?

• 42:54Speaker 03

  That was the only thing we could think of to do that was transgressive. Stand up as the plane lands.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Did you?

• 43:00Speaker 03

  I think we did, yeah, we were like, whoa.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  I mean, when you can get away with anything.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Have me on again.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  We would love to. John, congrats on your new book. Thank you so much. It's out now in the UK. Yeah. So people can get it in the UK and it comes out next week, is that correct? And in the US. That's amazing. So congratulations. Thank you so much for sending it early. I cannot wait to read it when I get home.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Excellent, the castle.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. Amazing.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  You guys have just been so great to talk to. Thank you.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Thank you so much, John. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Greatly appreciate it.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  See you next time.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Hope to see you soon in person. We got to make that happen.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  I would like that very much.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Part two in person. Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Thanks. Thanks, John. Cheers. Oh, my God, that was so cool. I could talk to him for. Yeah, that was, that was like an hour. For hours. Flew by. It was awesome. Yeah, so fascinating, but, you know, I think just a genuine, what he said, you know, being a, like, we need to be more curious. Instead of just quick to judge. And I feel like that's something that's really lacking in the world. Totally. Love it. Well, that was a really. Well, as always, I loved it. Well, love you guys. Bye, guys. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thank you, John.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today.