Zack Snyder, Vol. III

It is the 10th anniversary of BATMAN V. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE and we are looking back with the man who made it happen, visionary director Zack Snyder. From casting to the controversies to the future of the Snyderverse this is a must watch episode for any superhero fan. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! QUINCE -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. NordVPN -- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Saily -- 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code HSC at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://saily.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  These movies are really personal to me, right? Like Zack Snyder's just as like, I put my fucking name on that movie, right? Like, I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity. Like, you wanna like punch me in the face? Like, I deserve it for that, you know? But my, because my point is, is that like, I wanted people to understand that this [BLEEP] to me was like, is in my DNA. It's elemental to the way I think.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused, begins.

• 1:08Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We are taking a big ol' look back. 10 years later, director Zack Snyder and I are gonna reminisce about Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Strap in, here we go. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, enjoying us on Spotify or YouTube, however you're doing it. If you're new to the podcast, where have you been? Check us out, go back into the archives. 700 episodes are waiting for you. And remember, hit that subscribe button to enjoy all we do over here. We've done a bunch of these kind of reunion anniversary episodes. Did one for Galaxy Quest with Sam Rockwell and Justin Long. One with Francis Lawrence and Keanu Reeves for Constantine. I love doing these things. And I hit up Zack, Mr. Snyder.

• 1:54Josh Horowitz?

  To talk about this one and he was game and we had a great chat. This is a really for comic book heads for Zack Snyder heads. This is going to be a big old treat for you. Before we get to that, quick reminder, as always, if you want more of what I do, bonus materials, early access, all that kind of fun stuff, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. We do a lot of live events here in New York and sometimes elsewhere, discount codes to that, early access to that. All our podcast episodes go up early over there, announcements of guests go up there first, lots of cool stuff. So if you like what I do, this helps us make more of what we do, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. Okay, so this is a real treat. Zack Snyder's not on the publicity trail. This is a one-off. This is something he did

• 2:36Josh Horowitz?

  because he wanted to talk with me about this. And yeah, can you believe it? It's been 10 years, almost to the day, as of like, I think about a week or so, week or two from now, would be the 10th anniversary exactly of Batman v Superman, Dawn of Justice. You have to see the whole title. And it's, you know, it's like all of Zack's work, works, a controversial title in some ways, a film that has lovers and haters. It's a big swing. It came off of Man of Steel, which was pretty hugely celebrated. But even that one had, you know, the end controversy about Superman killing Zod, all the death and destruction at the end of that film. And this one, he kind of doubled down and went really, really

• 3:16Josh Horowitz?

  dark, really serious, casting Ben Affleck as Batman, casting Jesse Eisenberg as his Lex Luthor, catching flack for the Martha of it all. And we talked about all of it in this conversation. And yes, we talked about, a little bit about the Justice League and the Snyder Cut and the ever-present call for more of Zack to do stuff in the DC Universe and whether that could ever even possibly happen. And his answer might, might indeed surprise you. So, always love chatting with Zack. It's a pleasure, a privilege that he's been on the show a bunch. And like I said, if you guys love comic book movies, Zack's movies, this is, this is a real treat. So, without any further ado, please enjoy this

• 3:58Josh Horowitz?

  chat, 10th anniversary time, Batman v Superman, with me and Zack Snyder.

• 4:04Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's always a pleasure to have Zack Snyder on Happy Sad Confused, but especially today Zack, we are celebrating, 10 years have gone by in a flash. We're looking back at Batman V Superman. Welcome back to the pod and congratulations on 10 years, man. Good to see you.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I know. It's crazy, right? 10 years. How did that happen?

• 4:22Josh Horowitz?

  How did it happen?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. It's exciting. But thanks for having me. This is fun.

• 4:26Josh Horowitz?

  Of course. I love this kind of thing. This is also, by the way, I was noticing today, I was my, I got a few emails noting that I think today or this week is the 40th anniversary of The Dark Knight Returns. So this is like, it's all, it's all coming together.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  It's all perfect. Yeah, no, no, it's a very, yeah, I guess right around March, which is my birthday. You know, we had this tradition of, I think it was, it literally got set, maybe it was on, was it on Dawn of the Dead? I don't remember, but for sure on 300. And we did these March releases and

• 5:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  We were, and before that wasn't a date. People would be like, you can't release a movie in March. There's nothing, no movies do well in March. And then after 300, we were just like, March is our date. Let's go.

• 5:13Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  So we, I have a few movies I've released in March.

• 5:17Josh Horowitz?

  Kenny, before we get into this movie in particular, I mean, Dark Knight Returns is obviously such an important marker for you and influences this film in a huge way. Doing the math, when that, when that comic came out, that graphic novel came out, you must have been about 20, I assume in school. Do you remember when Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns came out and what it did for you?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember well because it was, you know, we were pretty much in the, the Watchmen, Dark Knight era had really like struck pop culture and I guess the comic book community, you know, more specifically of course, but for me as a, you know, on that sort of quest to find the thing that would spark my imagination. And, you know, when you're at that age, you're just like sort of right into college and you're just kind of looking at storytelling at

• 6:12Speaker 01

  If you're like a junkie for visuals like I am, you know, something so rare, the air where those things combine, you know, like these striking images with, um, you know, this story that is mythological and, you know, I think the funny thing about comic books is that, you know, people, you know, they talk about, you know, Greek mythology, certain mythologies, and everyone's like, oh, that's really cool. Like, you know, I can kind of relate to it. The thing about comic book mythology, it's so personal, you know what I mean, to someone who likes comic books, that I think, you know, Dark Knight Returns, for me anyway,

• 6:53Speaker 01

  was like, it felt like it was written specifically for me. And, you know, with mythology in general, like, you know, whatever, when you're looking at ancient mythology, you really feel like you're just joining a giant river that you're flowing into yourself and you're like, sort of in, you know, you're looking around, it's a pretty wide river, but it's like you're going with the flow, it feels awesome, it's like very natural. Where I feel like The Dark Knight Returns is like, someone wrote your myth, and like specifically, that, that was amazing. Like, you know, you have this seminal comic book that really profoundly affects you, but with no way of expressing it. Do you know what I mean? There's no, at that

• 7:36Speaker 01

  point in my life, there was no Batman fighting Superman movie that you could possibly, in my wildest dreams, could be a reality, right? So, it laid dormant in my, I would, I had it, it was on my coffee table, on my desk, wherever I was, I had it. And so, you know, I, listen, I'll be 100% honest, I, I would still make The Dark Knight Returns as a film if that opportunity arose, um, because to me, it's like the

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yes, did I steal or borrow or homage, I guess,

• 8:20Speaker 01

  as much as I could within the context of the mythology that I was creating? Yes, but the thing about Dark Knight Returns is it is a closed loop of like awesomeness that owes nothing to anything except for a masterful deconstruction of gods that we all grew up with. And I think that that and really you see that in BVS. BVS is for me, you know, damn, damn, damn the like, what the world would think, I was founded, determined to challenge my gods and find out if they were could handle it.

• 9:00Josh Horowitz?

  So let's contextualize a little bit about where BVS came out of. So Man of Steel comes out, it's a huge success. It's 870 million. To put that in context there, folks, that's more than, I mean, 873 million rather is what BVS makes, which by which, which, which is more than the most recent Batman movie. It's more than, with all due respect to James Gunn's Superman, I love it, but it made more than that. Like, it was a big success. It's critically a divided film, remains that to this day, BVS. When you think back to the reception, was it what you were expecting? Did it surprise you? Give me a sense of where you were at when it came out.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And also, like, if you, if you, you know, it is whatever, $890 million or whatever it is, unadjusted. Like, if you do any kind of inflationary adjustment for that movie, it's like, really, really, exactly a billion dollar movie. So it is a, in retrospect, I mean, listen, this is also, I think, this movie also

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Was the birth, in a lot of ways, for the general public, I think, more of the director cut concept for, as it pertains to my films and the way I make movies. Because no director's cut for Man is Steel just wasn't that kind of movie. Like, we just went straight ahead. Watchmen, of course, I think famously has two director's cuts. Because, you know, a lot of what was dictating the length of those movies was IMAX.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Because IMAX, at the time, the film palettes were a certain size, and the movie could only be, I think, two hours and 28 minutes, or two hours and whatever. Whatever Watchmen is, the theatrical release of Watchmen is...

• 11:08Josh Horowitz?

  You were pushing to the very edge of it.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Was that... They had told me if the movie, if the room was humid, the film would fall off. Right? Because the moisture of the, you know, the film laying against the other piece of film, if it was moist, you know, it wouldn't be as tight. And so the film would fall off. So that's literally the length. And so there was a lot of stuff that... And I wasn't going to sacrifice my IMAX release. And so there was a lot of stuff that I, that I wanted in Watchmen, because I was such a fanatic for the material. And I think, and so the BDS, the director's cut of BDS, I think, is really the movie that I was trying to make.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  You know, I think if you watch that movie, you really, I think, you know, objectively, it's a, it's a better movie than the movie that was theatrically released. That's my, that's my feeling.

• 12:05Josh Horowitz?

  I think it's generally most people's feeling, too.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  By the way, and I, and I don't, I still love the theatrical release, and I don't have, I'm not mad at it. I just think that the real intent that Chris Terrio and I had was, is in the director's cut. You see it.

• 12:22Josh Horowitz?

  We'll be right back with more Happy Sad Confused.

• 12:29Speaker 04

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• 13:47Josh Horowitz?

  So can you give me a sense of the origins of BVS? So you're making Man of Steel. You, if I have my timeline correct, you famously announced BVS at that amazing Comic-Con event when you bring out Harry Lennox. And that's just about a month after Man of Steel comes out. So obviously you were thinking about what you were going to do next in production, in post.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Very, yes. We were talking about the sequel. We felt we were very happy with what had happened with Man of Steel as far as its success and, you know, obviously starting a franchise and, you know, how we were going to move forward. And, you know, that, that concept, I think, of introducing this character in this sort of new universe, still, you know, with homage and with respect to what Chris had done with his Dark Knight trilogy. I think that was, that was kind of our, that was our way forward, you know?

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And so the landscape was very, we were very excited. And I think what happened was when we, we had this sequence where Superman flies into space and hits that satellite and you see the Wayne Enterprises logo on it. And frankly, you see the LexCorp logo on the truck, the gas truck that he kicks. So we knew from early days that we would want to build out a universe where all these things could exist in a, in a, in a complete singular mythology that could encapsulate

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Green Lantern, Darkseid, the whole thing, you know, right? Wonder Woman. And so, and it was kind of like, we had originally thought like, how are we going to, maybe at the end of this next movie, we could have a scene where Batman just appears, right? Like he gets a, like as a teaser, he gets a, I don't know, like a FedEx with a piece of kryptonite in it or something, right? Like that's the end. You know, he opens it and it's like John or some glowing green inside and like, you know, we thought that could be cool.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  The problem was, once you say out loud, once you say out loud, like, maybe Batman's in the movie, right? It's a really, it's a difficult thing to put that, that toothpaste back in the, in the.

• 16:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Let me set aside this beautiful, gorgeous character, one more movie. It's too tempting.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  It's, it's literally impossible. And so, and with my extreme fondness for The Dark Knight Returns, I found myself going like, look, you know?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  We, you can't, we can't not do it, right? It's, and as a way to introduce or to begin the conversation that there are other heroes in the world, other extraordinary heroes. Bruce Wayne is the obvious, the world's greatest detective, is the obvious hinge pin to us finding these other extraordinary characters, right?

• 17:31Josh Horowitz?

  And traditionally in the comics, he is that. He is kind of the leader of the Justice League. He brings the team together as he does in your, in your film, and it canonically, it all makes sense. So you, so you never, you, you never went down like a real serious road of like a solo Superman movie, pretty early on when you and Chris

• 17:48Speaker 01

  No, no, we did, we did, we absolutely did, and we were, our plan was, you know, my plan was always to, was to hopefully, you know, have this, once we sort of established this timeline, we could branch off and, and go do this Brainiac movie that would have like a Superman Brainiac, like, you know, solo concept. But the Justice League, and in the end, in my, my opinion is that in the end, the Justice League, full Justice League saga is a Superman story.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Regardless of how much Batman plays into it, in the end, it's a Superman film. Like, in the end, after the, when it's all said and done, Superman is the survivor, he is the savior, he, without him, there's nothing, you know, it is a Superman centric universe. Though, I would say Batman is the sacrifice that we need to make to have that world. Um, yeah, and so, that was always, uh, that was always the way we thought about it. And so, yeah, and so, you know, to answer your question, there was this, this idea that a Superman film

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Couldn't exist without what we're doing or would exist instead of, I never really thought about it in those terms. You know, I always thought it was like that we were just making like a 14 hour movie, you know?

• 19:25Josh Horowitz?

  And you've told me before that, obviously, Chris brought you in, Chris Nolan brings you in initially, and there is a very, very brief conversation of like, would it even make sense to continue with his Batman in this universe? But I guess the deal breaker, I mean, like, I guess if Bale had still been the Batman at the end of Dark Knight Rises, maybe you seriously consider it. But the the other Batman, the Joseph Gordon-Levitt is not, that's not as clean a story for you.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  I believe that's 100% correct is that, and though I love that concept, Joseph, I think, is an amazing actor, and it was, it's a cool thing. But like, I don't think it was for me to to flesh that out, you know, where, yeah, I think if Bale had stayed, if it had ended with Christian Bale standing on a building overlooking Gotham, you know, like, you know, with silhouetted by the lights of Gotham, you know, then there's a, that's a serious conversation. There, he's not in Italy, retired, drinking wine and relaxing. If he's, if he is a current crime fighter, then I think then those universes could mix,

• 20:37Speaker 01

  could have mixed, you know? And and maybe if Chris had really thought that that was a potential thing, he might have located differently, but I don't know that. I don't, we never really talked about.

• 20:46Josh Horowitz?

  So, once you decide, okay, it's the Batman Superman conflict at the heart, and you're going to start building towards a Justice League, was it, was it always intent from the beginning, like, Wonder Woman's going to be in there, we're going to tease Cyborg, we're going to tease Aquaman, like, because I guess the broader context is also Marvel, meanwhile, has Avengers, they're succeeding with their team movie. I don't know if there's pressure at that point to accelerate to a team movie or not. Were you feeling that? Or did you, in retrospect, are you happy with the pace you were moving at? Or would you have slow played it a little more?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  It's a good question. I mean, my knee jerk is that I didn't feel the pressure, but I can't 100% say that's true just because the studio was very excited about, you know, Dawn of Justice was important, you know, in the title, you know, where for me it was like, I didn't really need it, but that was a negotiation, that was a conversation that we had to kind of tease this Justice League idea. And yeah, I think, I think there might have been,

• 21:52Speaker 01

  although I will say my thing was the trilogy, you know, or the Trinity, sorry, the trilogy, the Trinity like is, is really iconic, you know, and I think that DC, the one thing DC has that say Marvel doesn't have, or whatever, any other comic book, it has Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, right?

• 22:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  It's literally, it has the three logos, right? Like, those logos don't need names. Like, you don't have to tell people who they are, you know? Like, you can show those three logos, and it's like McDonald's, you know, Target, and frickin' Coca-Cola. Like, it's like, literally, you know, the three, these, like, they're just massive, the IP, like, beyond IP, you know, they're like, it's like cultural.

• 22:40Josh Horowitz?

  If you look at that Comic Con footage, that announcement, the crowd goes insane, just based, not only in the dialogue, but just those two emblems on top of each other. You don't have to say another word, it's just...

• 22:49Speaker 01

  No, you don't have to say another word, yeah. And I think that that, you know, there's, and I really loved that. I, I loved the idea that I would have a scene, a shot in the film, where those three characters were standing together, facing off against something, right?

• 23:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  You know, that's why, and so, really, the work is like, what are they fighting? What could they possibly be fighting, you know? Those three are powerful, that's a powerful trio, right?

• 23:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  It has to be equal.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  Was that, was that pretty early on in the process of you and Chris Terrio cracking that? That it was, that it was gonna be Luther was gonna be our antagonist, but Doomsday was gonna be his, his vessel?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  His child, yeah, his creation, yeah. Sort of using all the stuff that we had on hand, you know? We knew that...

• 23:48Speaker 01

  We knew that in Kryptonian mythology, there was, Doomsday was, had cracked the moon there. And it kinda like, he was, he was around. So, it didn't feel like a crazy leap. And he really, and you know, famously, had already killed Superman in the comics. Right. And so he felt like the right guy. He, to me, it was like, a credible threat, you know? Right. I feel like the problem with Superman, he's not a problem, it's amazing, is that you have to give him credible threats. And the two credible threats are Darkseid and Doomsday. Right.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Everyone else is like, a problem that he has to work out. Do you believe that there's real jeopardy at the end of the day? At the end of the day, Superman will defeat Les Luther. There's no two ways about it. I mean, it's fine. It's cool. It creates drama. But there's no way you're gonna kill Superman. That's impossible. And I was like, no, we're gonna kill Superman at the end of this movie. Like, that's how serious of a threat it is. Now, we also knew that because it was a birth and resurrection story, obviously, I'm not, we're not lowering him off the cross by accident.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  You know, this is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the Jesus metaphors are not like, oh, that, they really went vaguely with that, that was like, really? I don't know. You know, it's a real reach, you know, to kinda say that's what's happening. I just felt like that was an important, you know, important.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  You know, mythological touchstone that if you were avoiding that, you were sort of avoiding the why a little bit of Superman. You were kind of like, you were kowtowing to some sort of like, I don't know what, public pressure or like

• 25:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  non-commercialization. I don't know what, but you're just, you're, you're pussy now, really. Let's be honest.

• 26:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, instead you leaned in. You said, let's, we're gonna go.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but by the way, it's the why, why I thought it was cool. Like, why I thought it was interesting. Cause like, it's, it's that exact iconology that makes it more than a comic book, that makes it mythological. But if you, if you deny the sort of origins and the, and the, what Superman is and what he represents to culture, then, you know, you're just, it's just, it might as well be a popcorn bubble gum bullshit thing. You know, you really have to, it, it, to me, it's like got real teeth. And that's what I was always after. You know, and I think that was the whole deconstruction problem.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  You know, I think in retrospect, I think people, they don't like their heroes deconstructed necessarily. You know, they go to the movies to have their heroes.

• 26:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right, they want reassurance. They want something comfortable.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Reassurance that they're there. Now, now I would say that in the end, I am a hero's friend. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to, I want to make sure that your devotion to those heroes has a bedrock of, of, of testing that allows you to trust them in the end and that they are not.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Manufactured by a focus group, or some fake bullshit, or like, the toy makers, or, you know, a lot of, whatever, you know, all the things. Like, it's literally a focus group, whatever it is, you know, like, I, I personally think that these movies are really personal to me, right? Like, Zack Snyder's just like, I put my fucking name on that movie, right? Like, I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity, right? Like, you wanna like, punch me in the face, like, I deserve it for that, you know?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  But my, because my point is, is that like, I wanted people to understand that this shit to me was like, Yeah. It's in my DNA, it's, it's, it's elemental to the way I think. And, um, and so, so Batman or Superman, I think, to go back to this sort of deconstruction concept, you know, I've talked about it before, but like, I just feel like, the thing that Miller does so well in Dark Knight Returns, is he literally does that, is that he literally is challenging the notion of Batman from the beginning. Like, what, what is his deal? Like, why is he, in the same way that Watchmen does, but like, you know, like, it,

• 28:51Speaker 01

  to me, like, one of the great bits in Watchmen is, when, when, when Dan can't get it up, and he needs to like, go do some, some superhero-y, they need to get in their fetishized costumes, and go save some people so they can fuck, like, that's, like, legitimately, like, that's, that's in the movie. That is what happens, they, they need to get aroused by their fetish. And, and I think that Frank, of course, was aware of that aspect of, you know, the superhero genre, but instead of that, like, he took it like, one step further, like, one step deeper psychologically,

• 29:31Speaker 01

  to really question, instead of, and it happens in Watchmen, but that, really, the why of Bruce Wayne's existence, like, like, his life is not worth living, you know, unless he's, unless he's Batman in the end, you know, like, The rings of baptism, you know, I'm born again. Like, he's not, he's not, um, you know, he's not, uh, complete unless he's like, he thinks he's over it. Like, I don't need the suit, you know, I don't need that life, but like, I'd rather be dead really in the end is what his, what his reality is. But anyway, so that really informed for me, like, this, this, this Bruce Wayne, this, this Batman, and this Superman, you know, because like, I always, obviously, even just

• 30:16Speaker 01

  what, what I was saying about how I view Superman, his death and resurrection is a pretty high bar, as far as the other death and resurrections that I'm referencing.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And so, you know, Batman's always gonna be supporting to that, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's that, you know, it's, if you're like, if you can fly, if you can, like, transcend death, you are a, you know, a mortal guy like Bruce Wayne, who like, drinks too much and might be a sex addict, that guy's always gonna be a little bit behind, you know what I'm saying?

• 31:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, his therapy sessions, I can't compete with this guy. This guy's flying, he's...

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Can't compete with him at all. And by the way, I shouldn't, I gotta stop trying.

• 31:10Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Sorry about the rant, that was quite a rant there.

• 31:13Josh Horowitz?

  No, it was great, it was great.

• 31:51Speaker 06

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• 32:36Speaker 06

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• 32:53Josh Horowitz?

  So we've talked about the casting. I know Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, Affleck comes up pretty early on in your, in your mind. It's like, it's like a little convincing of Ben. He wanted to kind of like know what he was doing and how this Batman was going to be different. You've told me that Matthias Shonerts was, was kind of your, your backup in a way, like if Ben didn't happen. Is that true?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:15Josh Horowitz?

  Um, did you, so what was the final, how did you get Ben on board in the end? What did you say to him that got him to say yes?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  You know, I think it had a lot to do with my,

• 33:30Speaker 01

  I did a drawing where I took Ben's face and I put a cowl on it, you know, whatever. I know it sounds dumb, but literally took a Sharpie and just like drew.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  The cowl on top of some photocopy of Ben's face. And I guess I convinced myself in that moment that that was the way, because obviously he's Bruce Wayne, right?

• 34:00Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  He's the most obvious Bruce Wayne, I think, of all the Batmans. If anybody who's played Batman, Ben is the best Bruce Wayne. I mean, of course, I'm gonna say that, but I'm always gonna say that. But like, he's also all the things I like in a Batman, which are, he's legitimately a big dude, right? He's whatever, six, five with his boots on. I don't even know what he is. And so he's got that physicality, you know, that I've always longed for in my cinematic Batman, you know? I've always wanted him to be a brawler. And I just, I really, I just, I needed that.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Like even what I did with the body and with the suit and everything, just, I wanted him thick and like, you know, I just, I just wanted him to be able to really hurt you. And I think that that, when I saw, when I drawn that on the cowl, the cowl on him, I was like, yeah, that's kind of Batman. Like, I guess I'm kind of stuck now. And so it did take convincing, but I think once I was locked in on it and I had those few lunches and conversations with Ben, I feel like he understood that I cared deeply about what iconographically I wanted Batman to be. And I think that just, I think he saw that and was like, all right, fuck it.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Let's, let's do it. Like it's, I know it's like gonna be haunting me for the rest of my life, but let's do it.

• 35:38Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, he's never looked cooler or more badass. I mean, it's, it's iconic. I mean, I'm fascinated by, by the Luther cast. You obviously end up with, with the great Jesse Eisenberg, but like you kind of ran the gamut, it sounds like. I mean, you've told me you talked to Adam Driver, you talked to Leonardo DiCaprio. Like these are, they're not necessarily like people you would put on the same page. So were you, like Luther can go a lot of different ways, I guess. Like, were you kind of, was it, was it a, I don't know, was it a long list of people that you were looking at for Luther? Was it tough to ride the Jesse?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  It wasn't that long. I mean, I think.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Ad Driver, I think DiCaprio, I think those guys were probably, you know, those conversations were, I could see them forming it, but I think, you know, Jesse was like, to me, he was the most modern. He was the most,

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I just believed in his, his, his, his smarts. You know, and it wasn't just like normal smarts. It was like another kind of intelligence that it would take. Just being a smart guy is not gonna get, you're not gonna beat Superman. Was just like, oh, I out-thought him, you know, I did this thing. His kind of smarts felt like he could render diabolical smarts. That there wasn't, he would be willing to sacrifice quite a bit to win. You know what I mean? Like, and I felt like, you know, just in my conversations with him, I always felt like, okay, I buy it. I buy his, I buy his,

• 37:16Speaker 01

  abilities, you know, and I think that it's, he's not just saying these words. Like, I, I feel him inventing these ideas as he speaks them. And that, to me, was really the selling point for, for me on Jesse. I just felt like he, he was transcendent. And then like, you know, of course, we don't get to see him in his full shaved head look, you know, until the last moment.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  And that's, and that, you know, if he had come out of the gate like that, it might have been a different take. You know, people might have had a different take. They, they kind of didn't want maybe a Lex with their origin story. But I felt like we needed to know, you couldn't just plunk a bald genius down in the middle of the world and be like, oh, of course, he's a supervillain, like, you know, what I, Right. He needed a personal. It needed a personal touch, you know?

• 38:12Josh Horowitz?

  And arguably, as you know, that's probably one of the two areas that they got a little flack at the time. Jesse's like performances, it's a big performance, like and in contrast to the rest of the film. And it's obviously purposeful in that way. And then, you know, we, I don't know if you test screened the film at all, but like, I'm curious, like we've talked about, and you're probably sick of even hearing the word Martha, but like to have that appropriated.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Martha, Martha.

• 38:35Josh Horowitz?

  What is such a key plot point and you're building to that? And then to have it become memified and kind of made fun of must really stick in your craw a little bit. Because, you know, from your perspective, it's a meaningful.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I mean, 100%, my 100% honest reaction to

• 38:55Speaker 01

  BVS and how it's received in the world is that, you know,

• 39:05Speaker 01

  it's really the question about like, and I've said this quite a bit, like, do you really want a movie? That's been, had all the edges shaved off it by the focus groups? Do you really want a movie that has been like, decisions have been made in the boardroom? Or tested ideas are being rendered for your enjoyment? Like, do you really want the Kmart version of your story? Is that what you really want? Because like, I would argue that like, that's fine. And it's fine to like, make fun of Martha. It is true in canon. It is true in canon that Batman and Superman's mother are both named Martha.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  That is a fact of the comic book world. Whether or not that is a thing that you feel like Batman with the hovering the spear of destiny over Superman's heart?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Those words, seeing this, what he believes a creature?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  That this thing that he's demonized in his mind Yeah. Got a mother named Martha, if that, if there's another thing that could touch him,

• 40:30Speaker 01

  you know, that could be, that could have been cool. We just felt like this was an obvious way in. And, um, yeah, so again, it just goes, it just goes, I think, and I think BBS really landed at this time when, you know, this genre, like superheroes, and I think I, I, I cut my teeth on Watchmen, you know? And so, Watchmen was never a, um,

• 41:02Speaker 01

  meant as a glorification of the genre, you know what I mean? It was never meant, like, there's no Watchmen 2, though it's been suggested, you know? I, I guess my point is that like, this is, this is like a novel, you know, like, Watchmen is a work of literature, it's not meant to be like, franchised and turned into something else. And so like, that's where I was sort of coming from with

• 41:31Speaker 01

  this sort of giant story that we were telling with Superman, BBS, Justice League and beyond. This was a universe that we, a mythological universe that we saw had an ending, you know, and that was like, it was only gonna, you know, it was like a flower, it was gonna bloom and be glorious and then die and, and then we would have been done with it. You know, I, I, look, I love this sort of mythological journey that we went on anyway with these, these three movies, like, I mean, the like, intensity of where we ended up with Justice League and how it evolved and where it came from and where, like, it, that whole insanity,

• 42:13Speaker 01

  which is another, we could, we'll talk about that on the, on the, on the 10 year anniversary of Justice League. Um, because that is a, that might be a two parter. Exactly, still.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  But, you know, I just think that,

• 42:29Speaker 01

  you know, things like Martha, or, um, you know, whether or not, um, Batman should fight Superman. We're like, the thing that was funny was like when we were trying for the R rating, or the PG R rating. We were trying for the PG 13 for the movie. The MPAA kept kicking the movie back to us. Saying like, "It's still an R, it's still an R." I'm like, "What are you talking about? Like, we're taking everything out." And I remember someone saying, we got a report from the MPAA saying like, "We just don't like the idea of Batman fighting Superman." Okay? So it's kind of a, so that kind of makes it an R.

• 43:05Josh Horowitz?

  That's gonna be a hard one to go back into the edit room and fix.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, "I don't know what you guys want then." Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, he really hits him hard with that, like, "Think? That's rude." You know, like, that feels like an R. He throws him down on those radiators. Like, that's rude, that's mean. And I'm just like, "Okay, well, you guys are like, can you please just, okay, let's just pretend it's not Batman versus Superman for one second." Is that, you know, I just think that like, you realize then, we should realize then that we were kind of kicking the zeitgeist in the nuts a little bit. You know, that we were gonna anger people. Because they didn't, they didn't, like I said, they don't want, not only do they not want their heroes deconstructed, they don't want their heroes battling each other on a road to deconstructing the why of their existence.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  You know, that is another sacrilege. But in the end, like I say, in the end, it is a, it is meant as a, as a, as a litmus that confirms their worthiness, you know, so.

• 44:07Josh Horowitz?

  Well, if it wasn't, if you weren't pushing in the ways that you are, we wouldn't be talking, with all due respect, 10 years later. It would be, it would be like, a movie that was like, liked, and went, came and went, and has no stickiness to it. The best stuff, as you, I'm sure you'll agree, is the stuff that often can divide folks, and causes conversation, and tests our expectations. And, and you're really good at that.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  I'm very familiar with that concept. Well, I 100%, there is no chance that anyone would give a fuck about Batman V Superman if we had done the straight down the road, you know, very commercial version, colorful.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Bright and shiny movie. It wouldn't be BVS, it would have been B and S.

• 44:58Josh Horowitz?

  What do you say to the diehard Snyderverse fans that will never give up hope on seeing you return to seeing the conclusion, the stuff that you had outlined for Justice League 2 and 3? If you're speaking to them directly, should they keep the hope alive? Is it worth it at this point? I mean, what do you say?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  All I'll say about that is that, you know, first of all, the fact, again, that we're talking about even just that is testament to, and I think confirms in some way, the validity of the mythology that we were working on, like the kind of the, obviously, those heroes touch a nerve, obviously, those heroes are meant to, in the end, uplift and confirm sort of the human existence or the why of, you know, this crazy ride we're all on. You know, they tend to be a metaphor, you know, like for all of us, I think. And so, you

• 46:01Speaker 01

  know, not to be too self-important, but like, I think that, and by the way, I'm just a shepherd of those characters. Obviously, they've already been taken and are going, you know, other people will take them and other people will take them after that. And that's how it should be. But I would never say that there's no way. I would never. Because I was on the ride that created Justice League. And if you were in my shoes, there were numerous times, dark times, when I would say, there is no chance that there will ever be, my version of Justice League will never exist. And it can't. Cost, politics, everything stood against it. And yet...

• 46:48Speaker 01

  It exists and you know, I think the fans should never forget that they did that, you know, and they also did a lot of, you know, we raised a ton of money for suicide prevention and they really did a lot of good and I think that they catch a lot of flack for being toxic or whatever, but they literally saved human lives. So you can go fuck yourself if that's what you think.

• 47:10Josh Horowitz?

  Have you entertained seriously kind of turning that outline for Justice League two and three into into a comic or an animated feature if someone gave you the wherewithal to do that? Is that an option in your head?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, we've absolutely talked about it quite a bit and sure. Yeah, I mean, we live in a world where all that's possible and whatever form it would take, Broadway musical.

• 47:39Josh Horowitz?

  Be unexpected, but sure.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  You know, that would be amazing.

• 47:46Josh Horowitz?

  And the lines of a communication. I mean, James has been very kind. He said you've been very kind.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  James is cool. Look, and I know, like, I wish them all the best and I don't have any, like, it is what it is. It kind of, it's a weed, you know, the, that three movie trilogy is a weed that just won't die, you know, and so it doesn't need to like, it grows on its own. It has its own life and it doesn't really, is not concerned, I don't think, with James's Superman, which is amazing and, you know, all the best to them and I can't wait to see the next movie and it's just awesome. It just really, to me, it's, it's just not the same thing. It's just like a different thing.

• 48:30Josh Horowitz?

  Is there anything when you saw James's version that, I mean, only James could do in that way that you appreciated in his, in his take of Superman?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Of course, James is singular in his, like, in his storytelling and his. Ability to kind of channel like sort of mythological pop culture into like what I would consider this iconic and and very particular point of view that's that's both poignant and funny and all the things, you know, and I think he's like, he, you know, he's, he's the best at it that I can think of. And I think that he's a, he's a great steward of that of that world. So, you know, that's good. That's great for fans.

• 49:14Josh Horowitz?

  You both, you both are class acts. I'll, I'll leave you, I'll leave you with this. If you'll indulge me for a second, just looking ahead, you've shot another film, which I'm very excited about, The Last Photograph, which, which I don't know how much you want to say right now, but this has been a project that's been around for a while and is going to be a bit of a change of pace for you. It's an independently made film.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was absolutely a project we've always had. We've been trying to make it for years, for almost 18 years. We've always had it. Tiny movie. We were always trying to slip it between projects. And I, you know, famously, you know, we were, we were getting ready to do this UFC movie, and the UFC was negotiating its rights deal. And so we were like, let's just wait until that's all squared away. And I had this weird window and I was like, let's just go shoot Last Photograph. And sure enough, I, I called, you know, fraud Stewart and said like, what are you guys doing? Do you want to go to like Colombia and shoot a movie? And they were like, sure. I go, you might have to carry

• 50:15Speaker 01

  some cases because it's, it's, we don't have a ton of money. And so I was the DP, the camera operator, the director.

• 50:23Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  And we just, yeah, we just ran all over Colombia and Iceland, and we shot some here and in the Amazon. And yeah, it was so fun. It was just like incredible just to be like, it was just raw and just. It was just real and the guys did an amazing job. Everybody working on the movie did an amazing job. I was so, I'm so proud of what those guys and what we were able to do is, well, you'll see soon, but yeah, it was really incredible and what an experience.

• 50:52Josh Horowitz?

  Can you say anything about the plan in terms of like, I don't think it has officially a studio or streamer attached to it.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  No, no one's seen the movie yet. No one's seen it. It's like literally, we're just, I'm just, I'm here, I'm cutting it right in the other room. So it's like, it's definitely a mystery project right now, but soon enough.

• 51:08Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. And then last thing for you, just going forward, is Brawler still on the agenda? Are you thinking about?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, Brawler's on the agenda. There's a few other things that we've been really excited about and talking about. I've kind of given them the, I've kind of given them the front slot to see if they can work it out. But there's a bunch of other things that I think are really exciting that we, you know, that we could, that we could jump to. And so we're excited about all those, all those possibilities. But this, the last photograph right now has caught my full attention, so.

• 51:44Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough, fair enough. Well, good luck with the rest of the edit. I'm sure we'll talk about that one hopefully before too long and.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:50Josh Horowitz?

  No, thanks, man. You're always the best in chatting about all things and I love that you, you came on to kind of help look back at this really special piece of work, which means a lot to a lot of people, should mean a lot to you. And like I said, it's a testament, we're talking 10 years later. We'll do the same for some of your other films and some anniversaries if you indulge me, but.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:10Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, man. I appreciate it.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  All right, well, thank, I really appreciate you, you know, wanted to talk about it because I do love the movie and it's, it's really fun to, to look back at it because it's really, it's, it's honestly stood the test of time, so.

• 52:23Josh Horowitz?

  Definitely, definitely. Thanks, buddy.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't finished.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Did this by Josh.

• 52:45Speaker 07

  Well, summer may be over, but things are still hot on Turtle Time. Goodbye, Next Gen NYC. Goodbye, The Valley. We'll see you next year. But now Turtle Time is gearing up to cover some of the most beloved franchises in the Bravo universe. Turtle Time is covering Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Real Housewives of Orange County, and Real Housewives of Potomac. Salt Lake City, Orange County, Potomac? These are wonderful franchises. Could you imagine what Amy and I are gonna say about them? You'll hear some of the hottest takes you've ever heard in your life. You'll feel like it's still summer. Oh, these will be hot takes. Uh, fall and winter? Great job trying to, uh, cool things off. No, it's still hot over on Turtle Time. You're gonna get that summer warmth.

• 53:28Speaker 07

  So put away your bathing suit. Put away the sunscreen. Summer's over, but you can still feel hot, hot, hot by listening to Turtle Time. Some of those other podcasts, you know it's fall or winter when you're listening to them. But Turtle Time, it's kinda like summer. It's hot. So enjoy the Turtle Time podcast, co-hosted by me, Riley Hamilton, and Amy Scarlata, and it's available almost every single day of the week. Better luck next time, fall and winter.